<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Oct 28 2005, 03:53 AM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Oct 28 2005, 03:53 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The writer Raja is incorrect.
The Khokkars are Jats and spread right through Punjab East and West, Haryana, Rajastan, and UP.
There is a book on Jat history written by Dr. Atal Singh Khokgar. He is the author of " Jaton ki Utpathi evam Vistar", publishedby Jaipal Agencies, 31-A Subhashpuram, Agra 282007, U.P.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why we should trust Dr. Atal Singh version and not Raja? Jats can handle Raja facts in a tea cup.
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Mudy,
You are correct, and this is a good question.
The Jat clan lists, the Gotravalis, state that Khokkar is a Jat Goth (gothra)
Dr. Atal Singh Khokkar is a Hindu Jat. He identifies himself as a jat. He was born in the Patti (subdivision) of Dhankaushiyah, in the village of Chaprauli, District Baghpat, U.P.
on July 25, 1940. His father was Baldev Singh Khokkar.
He was educated in Jain College, Baraut, U.P., and did his PhD in Geography from Meerut University, Meerut (Now Chaudhary Charan Singh University). He was the librarian there
Raja, the poster, does not identify himself as a Jat, but Dr Khokkar is one.
The same poster I think) had written on Wikipedia on the Jat section. He claimed that Khokkars are not Jats.
On Wikipedia, the Jats have posted that Khokkars are Jats
In the Book section I have included the name of Dr Khokkar's book.
In the discussion section:
One gentleman had written:
âKhokkars are not Jat.
To state Khokkars are Jatt is a folly because they are essentially the descendants of the original Sassanids who took refuge in India after being defeated by the Arabs in Persia. They are a generally referred to as a Rajput clan owing to their ruling status on the Kuh-i-Jud regions of Punjab and have allied many times with various other clans such as Janjua in defeating and pushing back the Ghorid armies from their regions. Ghakkar is another variation for Khokkar. Although they are not essentially Chandra, Surya or Agnikula Vansh, they were referred to and given status of Rajput by the priests of their time, this was not a self proclaimed title. This therefore proves the fact that Jatts aren't neccesarily an ethnic group at all. Many fallen royals became Jatt i.e. Bhatti, Chauhans etc. again proving that Jat is a class name for farmers and agriculturists and not an ethnic group of seperating branches as I feel is being implied here. So to say that the Jats were in constant battle with Ghakkars is wrong because they are the same people."
I have posted the following.
âKhokkar/ Kokkar Jats are found all over Northern India.
Ghakkar is a variation of Khokkar.
The Jats themselves do not claim descent from the Sassanids, nor do they claim descent from Rajputs!
Dr Atal Singh Khokkar, a Jat, wrote a book on Jat History. âJaton Ki Utpati evam Vistar". â
All one can do is to point to the information and to the various sources, and allow people like Mr. Raja to digest it, and draw their own conclusions.
To continue, The Khokkars are attested as being the Punjab /Haryana region since quite ancient time. They are linked to the Yaudheyas, and one of the ancient names for modern Rohtak in Haryana, was Khokrakot- Fortress of the Khokkars.
The Yaudheyas, as you are most probably aware, are dated from circa 6th century BCE to 4th/5th century CE
The history of the clan is worth exploring. I will see what material I have, and post something.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Oct 28 2005, 09:04 AM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Oct 28 2005, 09:04 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->One cannot stop people like Jha writing nonsense. All I am suggesting is , not to get overly worked up about it.
Better concentrate on bringing out your own version,
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When they are writing we should keep on telling they are jerk and one should not ignore them.
We are doing our job, which includes bringing facts in front and exposing joker historians.
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The question really becomes, why the Jats are treated so denigrated in Indian History textbooks?
Sadly Indian society is a casteist society, and those who wrote our history, as it is taught today, saw it to their advantage to disparage the Jats, not seeing that it is themselves and the larger Indian society that would suffer in the process.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Classic case of a persecution complex...you feel that your community is "denigrated" and you try to uplift it by denigrating other communities.
Those who wrote our history in school text books were leftist historians...they had nothing good to say about any Indian community. So why are you obsessing about Jats alone?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->From Muslim chroniclers, one expects this, as the Jats did not roll over and dies, and gave them no rest.
When Hindu writers R S Sharma, Mahajan, K S Lal etc show an anti Jat bias, for whatever their petty casteist ends, one does experience disappointment.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you insane? Muslim chroniclers didn't give a damn about Rajputs, Brahmans, Jats, or other Indian communities...according to them they were all Hindus. To be killed or converted. Rajputs were at the forefront of resisting Muslim invaders and hence their battles are repeatedly mentioned...Jats, being poor farmers, came into prominence at rare moments. And contrary to your claim these moments are indeed mentioned in Muslim chronicles.
Sharma, Mahajan, Lal...what "casteist ends" did they have? And why only against Jats? Don't make foolish claims without providing evidence.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->These places wee not saved because, some priests were singing their chants in the temple! There is not one single instance of any Hindu Rajput Raja, from Rajastan to Kangra or Kashmir, who came to the defence of these sacred places. The Rajput is found instead to be making war on the people of Braj, in league with his Islamic masters at Delhi, not defending it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You moron, do you think temples were only attacked in "Braj"? Temples were attacked all across India and the local people everywhere defended their holy places. Rajputs, Brahmans, Marathas, Jats, Sikhs, Ahoms, Oriyas, the Kings of Vijaynagar, etc. all defended temples in their area to the best of their ability...something we should ALL be proud of. Instead, you attempt to denigrate other communities.
And do you think Brahman priests only sung chants? THINK AGAIN. Read this story from the Tabakat-i-Akbari describing the Mughal attack on Kangra in 1572:
The fortress of Bhawan, which is an idol temple of Mahmai, and in which none but her servants dwelt, was taken by the valour and resolution of the assailants. A party of Rajputs who had resolved to die, fought most desperately till they were all cut down. <b>A number of Brahmans who for many years had served the temple, never gave one thought to escaping and were all killed.</b>
Now this is bravery! They were priests who were not trained to fight but they resisted without thinking of saving their own lives. And eventually this invasion of Kangra was defeated by the Rajputs and the temple was rebuilt.
You need to open you mind to INDIAN history, not just the history of Jats, if you want to be taken seriously on the INDIA forum. If you obsess about your own community you will end up becoming a bigot. This is exactly what happened to Muslims and overseas Sikhs, who obsessed about their own community and religion, and ended up becoming fanatic terrorists.
Moderators please note, if this person continues to make snide and casteist remarks against other communities, or throws casteist aspersion on historians please send him packing...back to his casteist forum.
The Rajput phenomena and the Islamic phenomena is linked. Prior to the 12 century, we do not find the term Rajput used in an ethnic sense.
There is plenty of material about this on the Jathistory list, and there have been plenty dicussions about it too. The material in book form, is in the files section, whichi is accessible to mebers only.
Are you a member?
If not, you are welcome to join, ad you do not need another identity either?
One that stands out is the Rajput- Islamic alliance, and the Rajputs acting as their contractors to conquer Bharat for them, and not as defenders of Bharat.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Sadly Indian society is a casteist society, and those who wrote our history, as it is taught today, saw it to their advantage to disparage the Jats, not seeing that it is themselves and the larger Indian society that would suffer in the process.
From Muslim chroniclers, one expects this, as the Jats did not roll over and dies, and gave them no rest.
When Hindu writers R S Sharma, Mahajan, K S Lal etc show an anti Jat bias, for whatever their petty casteist ends, one does experience disappointment.
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I agree most of the Indian historians are buffons.
But here on this forum you won't find any mean minded people.
We all believe in putting Bharata Maata & Hinduism first. Not petty communal politics.
So you can start by telling which historians are displaying anti-Jat bias, by providing supporting evidence.
I think discussion is the best way to resolve conflicts. What do you think?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It is not that the Jats did not record their history. They did, as best as they could, amidst the continual war they were engaged in.
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You can start a thread titled Jat history and tell us more about your community.
I think most of us know very little about Jats.
Further if you can tell us what is the root cause for the conflict between Jats and Rajputs, that will clarify a lot for those of us who don't know anything about this.
Ignorance is the root cause of most problems. If every Hindu community can enlighten others about itself, most of the social problems will disappear.
Everyone can see that this joker doesn't have facts to prove his foolish claims and he continues to make even more absurd claims. Since he hasn't responded to any of the points raised I'll post them again:
"The question really becomes, why the Jats are treated so denigrated in Indian History textbooks?
Sadly Indian society is a casteist society, and those who wrote our history, as it is taught today, saw it to their advantage to disparage the Jats, not seeing that it is themselves and the larger Indian society that would suffer in the process."
Classic case of a persecution complex...you feel that your community is "denigrated" and you try to uplift it by denigrating other communities.
Those who wrote our history in school text books were leftist historians...they had nothing good to say about any Indian community. So why are you obsessing about Jats alone?
"From Muslim chroniclers, one expects this, as the Jats did not roll over and dies, and gave them no rest.
When Hindu writers R S Sharma, Mahajan, K S Lal etc show an anti Jat bias, for whatever their petty casteist ends, one does experience disappointment."
Are you insane? Muslim chroniclers didn't give a damn about Rajputs, Brahmans, Jats, or other Indian communities...according to them they were all Hindus. To be killed or converted. Rajputs were at the forefront of resisting Muslim invaders and hence their battles are repeatedly mentioned...Jats, being poor farmers, came into prominence at rare moments. And contrary to your claim these moments are indeed mentioned in Muslim chronicles.
Sharma, Mahajan, Lal...what "casteist ends" did they have? And why only against Jats? Don't make foolish claims without providing evidence.
"These places wee not saved because, some priests were singing their chants in the temple! There is not one single instance of any Hindu Rajput Raja, from Rajastan to Kangra or Kashmir, who came to the defence of these sacred places. The Rajput is found instead to be making war on the people of Braj, in league with his Islamic masters at Delhi, not defending it."
You moron, do you think temples were only attacked in "Braj"? Temples were attacked all across India and the local people everywhere defended their holy places. Rajputs, Brahmans, Marathas, Jats, Sikhs, Ahoms, Oriyas, the Kings of Vijaynagar, etc. all defended temples in their area to the best of their ability...something we should ALL be proud of. Instead, you attempt to denigrate other communities.
And do you think Brahman priests only sung chants? THINK AGAIN. Read this story from the Tabakat-i-Akbari describing the Mughal attack on Kangra in 1572:
The fortress of Bhawan, which is an idol temple of Mahmai, and in which none but her servants dwelt, was taken by the valour and resolution of the assailants. A party of Rajputs who had resolved to die, fought most desperately till they were all cut down. A number of Brahmans who for many years had served the temple, never gave one thought to escaping and were all killed.
Now this is bravery! They were priests who were not trained to fight but they resisted without thinking of saving their own lives. And eventually this invasion of Kangra was defeated by the Rajputs and the temple was rebuilt.
You need to open you mind to INDIAN history, not just the history of Jats, if you want to be taken seriously on the INDIA forum. If you obsess about your own community you will end up becoming a bigot. This is exactly what happened to Muslims and overseas Sikhs, who obsessed about their own community and religion, and ended up becoming fanatic terrorists.
Moderators please note, if this person continues to make snide and casteist remarks against other communities, or throws casteist aspersion on historians please send him packing...back to his casteist forum.
To which I may add: this guy is a troublemaker, out to promote his own casteist forum. Don't feed this troll mods...send him out of here.
Fresh bodies of Jat cultivators began moving into the Agra province in the 16th and 17th centuries and the Jat population soon outnumbered the original landholders. The Jats gained wealth and power through their hard work, industriousness, and bravery. They rose up first in opposition to bigoted or greedy Mughal governors in the 1660s, and later when Aurangzeb was away in the Deccan fighting the Marathas, began looting his territories without compunction.
<b>The kernel of Jat power was planted by Badan Singh who wisely attached himself to Sawai Jai Singh, the leading Hindu potentate of North India in the 18th Century.</b> Under the protective arm of the Lord of Jaipur, the Jats gathered military and financial muscle and built strong forts like Deeg, Bharatpur, and Kumbherâall in the Agra province. Badanâs successor, Suraj Mal expanded into the Delhi province and came into conflict with Salabat Khan.
The Jat peasant was usually armed with a wooden staff or a spearâin this manner groups of them had first surrounded and robbed Mughal caravansâgradually shifting to matchlocks and swords as they gained wealth and confidence. The richer among them bought horses and formed a contingent of cavalry by hiring Rajput mercenariesâbut at the core it remained an infantry army.
and:
The downfall of the Jats was exactly parallel to that of the Ruhelas. Suraj Malâs son Jawahir Singh cleared the country beyond the Chambal River of the Marathas and even picked a fight with his familyâs benefactor, the Raja of Jaipur. Jawahirâs Jat nobles opposed his policy; hence he hired Purbia infantry under French adventurers and used them to destroy his nobles. This foreign-led army helped Jawahir in his wars but they could be easily enticed by better pay. Hence after Jawahirâs death these foreigners joined the service of the Delhi Emperors.
Robbed of its natural leaders, abandoned by the foreign mercenaries, and deprived even of a robust peasant-king, the Jat kingdom became a minor factor in North Indian politics. Just as the Ruhelas fell to British-controlled Avadh, so too the Jats came under the protective embrace of the Maratha chief, Mahadji Sindhia.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Only valid and honest discussion, no name calling to any forum member.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And how about no name calling to Indian communities or falsification of their history?
If you have any questions/comments/concerns/opinions pertaining to the article, feel free to voice them as that will add towards the discussion on Jat history. Let''s move beyond obivious questions - as far as I can see, the website is clearly listed by PC Guleria. So is the name of the author on that site. And the references used by the author.
In the reign of Ala-ud-din Khalji the historian Barani writes: "The people were brought to such a state of obedience that one revenue officer would string together twelve khuts, muqaddams, and chaudharies together by the neck and enforce payment by blows." These Jat village headmen were so impoverished that they could not afford to buy horses or weapons; and their wives had to serve as maid-servants in the houses of Muslims to make a living.
This is your wonderful Jat resistance? A few dandas from the Turks and you grovel before them and pay revenue while your women have to become maid-servants?
The fact remains that Muslim rule was fairly consistent over Delhi, Agra, Punjab, Haryana...all areas inhabited by Jats. Coincidence? And the Turks had it fairly easy over these areas...only when they attempted to invade Rajputana, South India, the Himalyan region, and Orissa were they finally defeated. But even after that they continued to rule over the Jats in Delhi-Haryana until the Mughal invasion.
This shows how feeble the Jats were. Only when Aurangzeb was involved in the wars against the Marathas and Rajputs did the Jats get an opportunity to plunder and increase their resources. Even then it was the patronage of Jaipur rulers that allowed them to come up...but the Jats turned against their fellow Hindu benefactors and served in the armies of Mughal generals like Safdar Jung. They weren't true to their salt (namak-haram).
In the Rajput states the heroic Hammir led a revolt about 1340 to recover Mewar. Marwar became independent under Chunda (r. 1390-1422), who made an alliance with Mewar. After his father Mokal was murdered while going to fight invading Gujarat in 1433, the renowned Kumbha became Rana and ruled Mewar for nearly forty years. Ranamalla gained the throne of Mandor and brought reforms to Marwar for a decade before he was assassinated in 1438. His son Jodha (r. 1438-1488) had seventeen sons, and they fought over the throne when he died; Suja won the struggle in1491, and Ganga emerged triumphant in 1515 and ruled Marwar until 1532. Mewar fought off attacks by Muslim-ruled Gujarat in the late 1450s. Khumba was a poet but was assassinated by his son Udaya Karan. The horrified nobles placed Udaya's brother Rayamalla on the throne of Mewar, and he was succeeded by his warrior son Sanga (r. 1509-1528). He made Mewar the most powerful Rajput state with a series of victorious wars.
and South India:
The Delhi sultanate did not hold south India very long. After the fall of Kampili in 1327, the captured brothers Harihara and Bukka were taken to Delhi and converted to Islam before returning as governors of Kampili. The liberation of southern India from Muslim rule began as soon as Sultan Muhammad bin Tughluq left the region in 1329. The Sultan returned to suppress rebellion at Warangal in 1334; but a cholera epidemic caused him to retreat to Daulatabad, allowing the governor of Ma'bar to declare the independent Madura sultanate the next year.
The strong Hindu chief Ballala III forced the Muslim governor of Warangal to flee to Delhi. Advised by Vidyaranya to follow Hindu dharma, Harihara and Bukka renounced Islam and in 1336 founded what came to be called the Vijayanagara kingdom after the City of Victory they built. Harihara I became king, and Bukka's army conquered Hoysala in 1343 after its king Ballala III had been treacherously killed by the forces of Madura's sultan. Ten years later the Hindu allies defeated the Madura sultan and put Sambuvaraya back on that throne, though eventually Bukka I (r. 1356-1377) took over the Tamil country. Vijayanagara's long series of
border wars with the Bahmanis began in 1358. When a dispute arose between Vaisnavas and Jains, Bukka took the opportunity to proclaim in Vijayanagara the equal protection of all religions including Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. He replaced regionally governing nephews with his sons and generals to maintain central authority.
Apologies to any other Jats here who I may have offended but after this person made snide remarks about "Rajputs from Kangra and kashmir(?) not coming to save braj" and "Brahman priests could only sing chants" I had to respond.
Unfortunately the mods forbade me to launch personal attacks hence I had to target his community in the same way as he attacked other communities.
If this person wants to highlight his community's role in history he should do it without passing snide remarks about others or falsifying their history. Statements like "Jats led resistance" without citing evidence and grandly declaring that all historians (whether ancient, medeival, or modern) are biased against Jats (and only against Jats for some reason <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) without citing evidence it only makes him look foolish.
If you have any questions/comments/concerns/opinions pertaining to the article, feel free to voice them as that will add towards the discussion on Jat history. Let''s move beyond obivious questions - as far as I can see, the website is clearly listed by PC Guleria. So is the name of the author on that site. And the references used by the author.
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Viren
Not quite so obvious
The webpage is from someone called Airavat Singh?
Mr Guleria apparently has accepted him as an authority.
Before we go into accepting Airvat Singh as an authority,it is fair to discuss his work.
Thus sources of information, who did the research, what research was done, are relevant.
Who is Airavat Singh? Are he and Mr Guleria the same.? Is Mr Airavat Singh available?
Approaching the subject in this manner, will avoid the temptation to throw brickbats, as a substitution for the exploration of a topic!
Ravi
PS
Mr Guleria
If you any more brickbats to get off your chest. Please do so now, we can then get back to the topic.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Who is Airavat Singh? Are he and Mr Guleria the same.?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me state that I don't know either Airavat Singh or Mr Guleria. But I've read some published works of Airavat Singh at other forums. If I'm not mistaken he's an accomplished author of several books pertaining on history and strategic security matters.
Also, let me state that my knowledge of both Jat and Rajput history is extremely limited.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Is Mr Airavat Singh available?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On this forum (or any other internet forum or yahoogroups) we read/review/critique works of several authors - some members here, some not, some alive, some dead. Doesn't stop us from commenting on their work and should stop you too. And I doubt if you can produce Mr. Kokhar here to defend his work either.
On forums when one makes a particular case against a particular view point, it helps if one can point out as to why the author is wrong with your own supporting theory which could be backed by a author/work of your choice. As indicated by another moderator earlier, we'd like the thread to be focused on Jat History with very limited focus on authors or individuals in questions (unless you can make a case that the person in question either Mr.Kohkar or Mr. Singh has an agenda which others don't know about).
Fact of the matter is that we all failed to defend India against Islam.
No point blaming any particular community.
Even those kingdoms of India that remained under Hindu rule did not try to liberate the rest of the country which were under Muslim rule.
For example Orissa and Vijayanagara were fighting with each other instead of uniting and smashing the Bahamani Sultanate of the Deccan.
Also the rulers of Mewar defeated the Sultans of Gujarat and Malwa many times, but it never occurred to them to destroy the muslim rule there and annex those kingdoms.
We need to analyze what mistakes were made, so they are not repeated.
<b>
For example why is there so much tension between Jats and Rajputs?
Why can't can't [edited - mitradena: Please don't pursue this here, it's being edited, second time in past 2 days - Admin ]?
</b>
You have hs name, address, and are able to contact him if you wish. He is retired. He held the position of Librarian at Meerut University, U.P( now Chaudhary Charan Singh Unversity).
To complete, the topic, re the reason why his name came up. It was Mr Raja's comment, that Khokkars are not Jats. Mr Raja has accepted they are Jats in a private e mail to me.
He is of the Janjua clan, and he wishes to know more about whether Gakkars are the same as Khokkars.
He is in other words , looking into his ancestry.
Hopefully he will now add to our store knowledge. We are quite deficient in Pakistani sources.
Re : Airavat Singh.
His work is a racy read.
There are however, not just a few questions about his sources and comments
This person, and his work is on the net.
He should be accountable for, and be able to answer for, his work!
If necessary we will get into them, without him, though I prefer he be accessible.
This thread, appears to be not a discussion on Jat history, but an argument on Jat- rajput relations and perceptions,and, perhaps, could just be kept for that.
If moderators permit, I will post something re the History of the Jats, on another thread!
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) without citing evidence it only makes him look foolish.