Than you didn't read the article seriously or are you following the same negative attitude of picking wrong and suppressing right information.
The author in his footnote clearly explains this picture when he says that Harris just blundered in his guess about caumorin.Balahara was the ruler of Sindh.Again the traveller explains that his forefathers too ruled for generations.
I won't let you be in any confusion these BALHARA rulers fought with Dahir also who could not defeat them despite all his might and it is a recorded historical fact.
Is it ok.
Now author makes it clear that Balhara is an appellate used by these kings not the real name .What you got by that?
It means that Balhara was just the clan name not found anywhere except in jats.
PS Digvijay ji .. Pls be clear we don't have any wish to relate jats to any tribe and least to rajputs Jats are a proud race .I just want to make clear that some of Rajput ancesstors may be jats in addition to huns gujjars meds bhars and other groups.
Look you are going down the wrong path. You CANNOT prove that Jats are more ancient
then rajputs because for that you will have to prove that jats existed in India before
the kings did, which ofcourse you cannot.
Than you didn't read the article seriously or are you following the same negative attitude of picking wrong and suppressing right information.
The author in his footnote clearly explains this picture when he says that Harris just blundered in his guess about caumorin.Balahara was the ruler of Sindh.Again the traveller explains that his forefathers too ruled for generations.
I won't let you be in any confusion these BALHARA rulers fought with Dahir also who could not defeat them despite all his might and it is a recorded historical fact.
Is it ok.
Now author makes it clear that Balhara is an appellate used by these kings not the real name .What you got by that?
It means that Balhara was just the clan name not found anywhere except in jats.
PS Digvijay ji .. Pls be clear we don't have any wish to relate jats to any tribe and least to rajputs Jats are a proud race .I just want to make clear that some of Rajput ancesstors may be jats in addition to huns gujjars meds bhars and other groups.
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Nandibum,
During the time of this Balhara king i.e middle of 9th century A.D. three major Hindu monarchs of north India were given in my last post. Since Balhara is not the king's proper name could you find out what his real name is?
Lastly you keep repeating the same thing about Jats, huns etc being ancestors of rajputs. Clearly you have some motivation to show a connection with rajputs. In reality such a connection just does not exist.
What you are most likely getting confused by is similarity of surnames between rajputs and jats. I have already explained the reasons for this.
As you read the article yourself do you doubt its authencity?
Important point was Balhara clan of jats considered greatest in India ruled for many generation but overlookked in history.
What I want is immaterial what is important is truth about antiquity of rajputs .who were they?I have given so many references regarding your ancestory from your own rajput sites but you are just not ready to admit without giving any substantiating reason.
Just tell me Are the rajputs delibrately spreading lies about their own origin?
Now who so ever was these Huns they are absorbed in Indian society and should be treated as Indian.
I feel I have said what I wanted to say further repeating same thing won't serve any purpose.
If you still feel that you have nothing to do with these groups than I am really happy for you.
<!--QuoteBegin-NANDIBUM+Aug 28 2006, 01:16 AM-->QUOTE(NANDIBUM @ Aug 28 2006, 01:16 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->As you read the article yourself do you doubt its authencity?
Important point was Balhara clan of jats considered greatest in India ruled for many generation but overlookked in history.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tell me the name of this Balhara King. Why is it so difficult? Unless I see a real
name then the claim is a little tenous at best.
<!--QuoteBegin-NANDIBUM+Aug 28 2006, 01:16 AM-->QUOTE(NANDIBUM @ Aug 28 2006, 01:16 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->What I want is immaterial what is important is truth about antiquity of rajputs .who were they?I have given so many references regarding your ancestory from your own rajput sites but you are just not ready to admit without giving any substantiating reason.
Just tell me Are the rajputs delibrately spreading lies about their own origin?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looks like a case of not believing what you do not like. Please explain why is
that rajput women not work in the fields and Jats and rest of the other kshatriyas do?
<!--QuoteBegin-NANDIBUM+Aug 28 2006, 01:16 AM-->QUOTE(NANDIBUM @ Aug 28 2006, 01:16 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Now who so ever was these Huns they are absorbed in Indian society and should be treated as Indian.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you know for how long they grabbed a small piece of land in India?
<!--QuoteBegin-NANDIBUM+Aug 28 2006, 01:16 AM-->QUOTE(NANDIBUM @ Aug 28 2006, 01:16 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I feel I have said what I wanted to say further repeating same thing won't serve any purpose.
If you still feel that you have nothing to do with these groups than I am really happy for you.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you go into a debate you either have to convince or be convinced. Running away
from it serves no purpose. At the same time there should be no prejudice. Some Jats
have made up there mind that Jats were forefathers of rajputs which is absurd.
You have no data to prove such a claim. They only thing you have is both groups have
similar last names and hence must be the same. This idea has been refuted in previous
posts. Why do you still cling to it?
When you go into a debate you either have to convince or be convinced.
Digvijay ji
Ten men can take a horse to a pool but no one can make it drink.
For a discussion you have to answer my points I have to answer yours. Right.
Now I asserted that as per the genealogy records and other observations by different historians and link of unbiased rajput sites.
Rajputs are the sons of different ruling tribes including huns ,gujjars ,bhars ,jats ,brahmans ,meds.Ahirs,dogras,nepali,etc.etc. who intermarried and adopted a new title rajput .Foreign rajput tribes as huns merged with native goups of rajput as chandels and a new social group was formed.
What gulleria ji and you want to say is rajputs are present from vedic period as a distinct group and called as rajputra earlier ....Ok .
Now I asked if it was so than show that rajputra was used for some goup of people not as a title by some king or used in vedas as you claim and why the use of such words as rajanya was discontinued.
You could not answer a single querry.
Again I asked wether present day Hun rajput were present in vedic period
You didn't reply.
As truth you can't say as it will shatter your fancied fabricated ancesstory built over a period of time just to cater to a false ego.
This is the difference between JATS and RAJPUTS.
As when some historians said that they could be related to saka yeuazhi or kushan they happily accepted saying our great barbaric ancestor never knowing whether true or false ,but when real facts are exposed about ancestory of rajputs in the form of presence of hun rajputs in rajput samaj you are simply clinging on to a frabricated history.We will never deny our ancesstors even if from a lower group for some imaginery king.
You keep on repeating the social custom difference between jats and rajput in case of women ,I agree, There is no difference or point of argument over that .
Secondly you say similarity of clans does not mean same people I don't deny that .
I just point out that when Chandels in their historical records are written as bhars earlier.
Does that carry weight or not ?
If Soda rajput dahir call him brahman earlier .Does that carry any weight?
I ask rajput huns are present in present Huns ,does that carry any weight.
If guhilots call themselves Vipr in their official records does that carry any weight?
Similarly if sammas inscriptions relate them to a different cast earlier does that carry any weight?
There are so many points but in nutshell I would like you to be honest with facts and arguments.
The travellers accounts don't say anything about the name of Balhara King, but what is fact is narrations are fairly accurate as per todays evidences also.
The Balhara rulers were reported to be ruling earlier also in dahir times and was recorded in his fight with balharas.This testify travellers assertion that they were ruling for many generations.
Balhara clan is only found in JATS not in any other group.
Sindh was a having a sizable jat population till today from earliest period in history.
Are these facts not sufficient to assertain the group identity ?
I think we have had enough of false history buffs who want to create more divisions by asserting superiority some over others. Admins, my humble suggestion is parochial posters should be reined in.
When you go into a debate you either have to convince or be convinced.
Digvijay ji
Ten men can take a horse to a pool but no one can make it drink.
For a discussion you have to answer my points I have to answer yours. Right.
Now I asserted that as per the genealogy records and other observations by different historians and link of unbiased rajput sites.
Rajputs are the sons of different ruling tribes including huns ,gujjars ,bhars ,jats ,brahmans ,meds.Ahirs,dogras,nepali,etc.etc. who intermarried and adopted a new title rajput .Foreign rajput tribes as huns merged with native goups of rajput as chandels and a new social group was formed.
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Nandibum,
Genetics is a modern science which can prove kinship rather easily.
Genetics has shown that Indian gene pool has no markers from the genes of West Asian/European/Central Asian or any people from outside of India. This implies Huns, Foreigners are out. (So all your historians put together are wrong here).
In a 2006 paper by Sahoo et al which has a statistically a good sample of Indian population they have concluded :
" CONCLUSION
It is not necessary, based on the current evidence, to look beyond South Asia for the origins of the paternal heritage of the majority of Indians at the time of the onset of settled agriculture. The perennial concept of people, language, and agriculture arriving to India together through the northwest corridor does not hold up to close scrutiny. Recent claims for a linkage of haplogroups J2, L, R1a, and R2 with a contemporaneous origin for the majority of the Indian castes' paternal lineages from outside the subcontinent are rejected, although our findings do support a local origin of haplogroups F* and H."
Now what genetics has also shown is that the DNA of upper class women i.e rajputs etc is different then the DNA of lower class.
The DNA of lower class men does show an infusion from upper class men. What this implies is that upper class men and lower class women did have interactions while upper class women had no interactions with lower class men.
So all your theories of mair/meena/chandal/huns/foreigners becoming rajputs are just completely false.
Slowly I am loosing the interest in having a debate with you
As you are lowering the standard of this discussion in to some freestyle match where you just want to score some points instead of intelluctual discussion by using lower higher cast and other substandard discussion.
Though you say of genetic findings but the the problem is you have not even read or understood these genetics results also.
I wish you could give some time on genetic thread on this frorum itself.
Genetic findings don't rule out the genetic influence of central asian people but just say that the influence is minor.And I don't say that Rajputs are made of huns only,I say that they are formed from different casts lower higher with some foreign tribes like huns.So they are more Indian from lower and upper casts less central asian with only few casts as huns or gujjars etc.
Sangmita and others report just varifies what I say have a look ...
We found that the influence of Central Asia on
the pre-existing gene pool was minor. The ages of accumulated
microsatellite variation in the majority of Indian haplogroups exceed
10,000â15,000 years, which attests to the antiquity of regional
differentiation....... R1a1 and R2 haplogroups
indicate demographic complexity that is inconsistent with a recent
single history. Associated microsatellite analyses of the.......
Here they find a minor influence which they don'y deny.
And for truth sake don't behave as if their was no huns in past historical records and no huns rajput in present day people.
And can you explain me which group you put Rajput in to while talking upper or lower casts.Upper or lower cast?
As sangmita and others find rajputs as a seprate group from uppercast having more IE genes as brahmans saying it is a seprate and more indian in nature than groups with IE genes.
Forther the mt -dna is fairly similar for Indian population unlike your suggestions.
And if you just want to talk about jat and rajputs than let us see your samples on jats or rajputs and see what truth says about your ideas.
Where we know that rajput ancesstary is derived from all genetic varieties Jats as per their custom and traditions hardly marry outside their social group.
Lastly I can't say more than what ramana has said in few words.
<!--QuoteBegin-NANDIBUM+Aug 29 2006, 10:19 PM-->QUOTE(NANDIBUM @ Aug 29 2006, 10:19 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Slowly I am loosing the interest in having a debate with you
As you are lowering the standard of this discussion in to some freestyle match where you just want to score some points instead of intelluctual discussion by using lower higher cast and other substandard discussion.
Though you say of genetic findings but the the problem is you have not even read or understood these genetics results also.
I cannot help it if you are offended by my post. Regarding the "minor" influence of outsiders that was found in Indian genes you have to understand the history of India at a deeper level.
Let me point out that in Kashmir there were Hindus marrying muslims and these muslim girls reconverted back to Hinduism i.e the reconversion was not sanctified by Hindu priests (because in Hinduism there is NO concept of reconversion) but happened at a social level.
This practice was so rampant during the reign of Shah Jahan (Jahangir also) that he tried many times through decree that these be stopped as he was pressed by Mullahs who were aghast by these social reconversions, but the society in kashmir did not pay heed. Thus the children of such union had traces of J2 marker (a foreign marker found in muslims).
Secondly Sikhs did not believe in any caste (mostly) and when they conquered a region inhabited by muslims (which was mostly the case) they gave a choice to muslims to either die or convert to Sikhism. Lot of muslims did. This brought in influx of J2 marker.
Note in northern India, there was a tradition of sending the eldest son of quite a few Hindu family to join the Sikh Panth. The marriages between Sikhs and Hindus are not uncommon and thus the J2 marker has spread BUT IS STILL MINISCULE.
So the argument that Indians and that includes Jats have ancestors in races outside of India are patently false. Jats take pride in showing connections to foreigners, central asians and what not. This is all just bad scholarship.
So please wake up and stop believing false histories.
As I said once before Rajputs never had Jats as there ancestors. Neither Huns/Mers/Meena/Chandals/Foreigners etc.
You should stop focussing your energies on finding a connection between rajputs and
jats. Rather spend time on coming up with good history of Jats so that people can
know about them.
Why the obsession with showing a connection with rajputs?
<!--QuoteBegin-NANDIBUM+Aug 30 2006, 01:10 AM-->QUOTE(NANDIBUM @ Aug 30 2006, 01:10 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Sorry man you have no answers.
Only people who have some sort of complex deny their ancesstory but that is their personal choice.
And nobody will like to connect them to some one who has so many crossconnections please be clear about that.
We both have given our arguments and readers can decide on their own.let us concentrate on the topic of this thread now.
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Only people who have an inferiority complex want to connect themselves to something superior. You have no argument left. Now you are operating on pure prejudice. You do not want your make believe world to be shattered by reason and argument.
I registered on jatland forum and countered one post by some tewatia who was abusing Maharana Pratap like crazy. And the result your entire establishment shook up and some wimpy moderator said since I am not a jat I cannot post there. Jatland forum is run by jats who have no guts.
So much for the bravery of Jats on this jatland forum which ravi keeps chiming about. You enjoy belittling famous and brave people of our history and enjoy that. This behavior is what I saw in muslims also.
Reason and argument ??..........Did any one see that prephaps I missed it.
Digvijay
Let me clear your doubt that Ravi ji group is JAT HISTORY group on yahoo and that is open to all .He invites all and I feel some of the members from this forum are members there also.Simlarly jattworld is also open to all.
Some sites like Rajput Samaj and jatland have group specific membership that you and I can't do any thing about.Though you can easily join jatland but you know it is almost impossible to register at Rajput Samaj as they ask each and every personal detail before joining.
And love and affections are equally shown on both the sites.
Mahrana partap was the single rajput king who never compromised his pride in a relatively dark era and is respected for that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ravi Chaudhary+Aug 25 2006, 12:06 AM-->QUOTE(Ravi Chaudhary @ Aug 25 2006, 12:06 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Poster Digvijay has referred to Rana sanga and the " memoirs of Babur" the baburnama
Fortunately for students of History, a number of these translations are now online.
Though they present a one sided view, they are still useful as raw material, for they can be compared and corraborated with other accounts.
Indian History text books have relied too much , exclsuvely on these accounts..
From a raw material point of view, I have taken certain extracts from the memoirs of Babur:
For students of history , a number of the translations of the Persian manuscripts are now online at the Packhum site.
MEMOIRS OF
ZEHĪR-ED-DĪN MUHAMMED BÄBUR
EMPEROR OF HINDUSTAN
WRITTEN BY HIMSELF, IN THE CHAGHATÄI TŪRKI
AND TRANSLATED BY
JOHN LEYDEN, ESQ., M.D.
AND
WILLIAM ERSKINE, ESQ. ( circa 1813)
THE MEMOIRS OF BÄBUR
1. :Although RÄna Sanka,* the Pagan, when I was in KÄbul, had sent me an ambassador with professions of attachment, and had arranged with me, that, if I would march from that quarter into the vicinity of Delhi, he would march from the other side upon Agra; yet, when I defeated IbrahÄ«m, and took Delhi and Agra, the Pagan, during all my operations, did not make a single movement. After some time, he advanced and laid siege to KandÄrâ
2. âHaving appointed these armies to proceed in execution of their various objects, I sent for the TÅ«rki nobles and those of Hind, and held a consultation. I stated to them that the rebellious lords in the east, NÄsir Khan LohÄni, MaarÅ«f FermÅ«li, and their adherents, had passed the Ganges, to the number of forty or fifty thousand men, had occupied Kanauj, and advanced and encamped two or three marches on this side of it; that the Pagan RÄna Sanka had taken KandÄr, and was in a state of open disobedience and revolt; that the rainy season was now nearly over; that it seemed expedient and necessary to march against either the rebels or the pagans; that it would be an easy matter to reduce the neighbouring forts after getting rid of these formidable enemies; that then they would cost no trouble; that RÄna Sanka was not, upon the whole, a very formidable enemy. Resolution
to march
against the
Afghans in
the east.
The com-
mand given
to HumÄiÅ«n, All unanimously answered, that RÄna Sanka was not only far off , but that it was not even plain that it was in his power to come near us;â
3 . â Hassan Khan, He is joined
by Hassan
Khan of
Alwar. had ostentatiously maintained a correspondence, and constantly asked back his son. Many imagined, that if I gratified Hassan Khan by sending his son to him, he would be extremely sensible of the obligation, and exert himself actively in my service.* I therefore invested his son, NÄhir Khan, with a dress of honour, and on his entering into an engagement,* sent him back to his father*; but that wretch, as soon as he had ascertained that his son was released, and before the young man had reached him, totally forgetful of the obligation conferred on him,* marched out of Alwar,* and went to join RÄna Sanka.â
At this station we received information that RÄna Sanka had pushed on with all his army nearly as far as BiÄna. The party that had been sent out in advance were not able to reach the fort, nor even to communicate with it. The garrison of BiÄna had advanced too far from the fort, and with too little caution, and the enemy having unexpectedly fallen upon them in great force, completely routed them. Sanger Khan JanjÅ«heh fell on this occasion. When the affair began, Kitteh Beg came galloping up without his armour, and joined in the action. He had dismounted a pagan, and was in the act of laying hold of him, when the Hindu, snatching a sword from a servant of Kitteh Beg, struck the Beg on the shoulder, and wounded him so severely that he was not able to come into the field during the rest of the war against RÄna Sanka
4. On Monday, the 9th of the first JumÄda, I began my march to the holy war against the heathen. Having passed the suburbs, I encamped on the plain, where I halted three or four days, to collect the army and communicate the necessary instructions. As I did not place great reliance on the men of HindustÄn, I employed their AmÄ«rs in making desultory excursions in different directions. Älim Khan was directed to proceed with a light force to GwÄliÄr, to carry assistance to RahÄ«mdÄd, while I appointed Makan, KÄsim Sambali, HamÄ«d with his brothers, and Muhammed ZeitÅ«n, to proceed with a light-armed party towards Sambal.
Defeat of
the detach-
ment.
At this station we received information that RÄna Sanka had pushed on with all his army nearly as far as BiÄna. The party that had been sent out in advance were not able to reach the fort, nor even to communicate with it. The garrison of BiÄna had advanced too far from the fort, and with too little caution, and the enemy having unexpectedly fallen upon them in great force, completely routed them. http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?fi...1052&ct=58
5. Size of Rana Sangaâs army. Note the muslims as part of his army
s, for instance, SilÄhed-dÄ«n* possessed* thirty thousand horse; RÄwal Ūdai Sing NÄgari,* ten* thousand horse; Medini Rai, ten* thousand; Hassan Khan MewÄti, twelve thousand horse; BÄrmal Īdari, four thousand horse; Narpat HÄda,* seven thousand; Sattervi Kachi, six thousand; Dharm Deo, four thousand; Narsing Deo,* four thousand horse; MahmÅ«d Khan, the son of Sultan Sikander, though he possessed no country nor perganna, yet had gathered about him ten thousand horse, who adhered to him in the hopes that he might succeed in establishing his pretensions; insomuch, that the total number of all these wretches, who were separated from the fields of salvation and bliss, if an estimate be formed from the capacity of their dominions and pergannas, was two hundred and one thousand.
5. Accounts with names of leaders who died- Hassan Khan, Udai sing Rawal of Udaipur, Chanderbhan Chuhan,
â Many were slain, and fell in the battle, and some giving up their lives for lost, turned to the desert of ruin, and became the food of crows and kites; and hillocks were formed of the slain, and towers raised of their heads. Hassan Khan MewÄti was enrolled in the band of the dead by a matchlock shot, and in like manner many of these bewildered and misled rebels, the leaders of that army, were struck by arrows or musket-shot, and closed their lives; of the number, RÄwal Udai Sing, before named,* who was Prince (Wali) of the country of UdaipÅ«r, and had twelve thousand horse; and Rai ChanderbhÄn ChuhÄn, who had four thousand horse,* and MÄnikchand ChuhÄn, and Dilpat Rai, who were masters of four thousand horse, and GangÅ«, and Karm Sing, and Rao Bikersi,* who had three thousand horse, and a number of others, who each were leaders of great clans, men of high rank and pride, measured the road to Hell, and, from this house of clay, were transferred to the Pit of Perdition. The road from the field of battle was filled like hell, with the wounded who died by the way; and the lowest hell was rendered populous, in consequence of the numbers of infidels who had delivered up their lives to the angels* of hell. On whatever side of the armies of IslÄm a person went, on every hand he found men of distinction lying slain; and the illustrious camp, wherever it has moved after the fugitives, could nowhere find a spot in which to plant a foot, in consequence of the number of distinguished men lying mangled.*â
All the Hindus were scattered and confounded,*
With stones,* like the warriors of the elephant.
Many hills of their bodies were seen,
And from each hill flowed a rivulet of running blood.
From the dread of the arrows of the ranks full of grandeur,
They were flying and running*
to every field and hill.
Arabic.âThey go backwards in flight. And the event happened as it had been ordained of Fate. And now the praise be to God, who is All-hearing and All-wise; and except from whom there is no help, for he is great and March
1527. powerful.* * Written in the month of the latter JumÄda, in the year 933.*
Here are the book details:
BaburNama
Penguin Publishers (2006 edition)
ISBN-13: 978 - 0 - 14400 - 149 - 1
Printed at Saurabh Printers Pvt Limited Noida
Once again for the record here are the quotes I made:
Page 289:
My March Against Rana Sangha
"(11 February/9 Jumada Awal ) We left Agra and dismounted in the countryside where we remained for a few days to assemble our army. News reached us that due to Rajput Rana Sangha's speedy advance with all his troops our scouts were unable ..........."}
â
Since the two ISBN numbers , the one provided by Digijay and the one appearing in the Amazon catalogue agree, we can assume with some safety that we are all talking about the same edition of Penguin/Hiro.
The Penguin edition was published earlier this year in 2006.
Hiroâs shortened and edited version contains 424 pages, the original 1921 translation contains over 700 pages
The editor is Dilip Hiro , a journalist, who edited , shortened, revised the original version.
Dilip Hiroâs version based on Beveridge(1921) includes the term ârajputâ to describe Sanga, but Beveridgeâs original translation which he uses as his source does not,
To complete the information available the earlier translation by Leyden in 1813 also does not use the term rajput to describe Sanga.
Dilip Hiro would have done well not to distort the original text and to follow the comment in the review. 'the truth should be reached in every matter'.
We all should try and be technically accurate- debate and discussion is another matter
Journal of Emperor Babur by Zahir al-Din Babur and Dilip Hiro (Paperback - 25 Jan 2007)
Product details
· Paperback: 424 pages
· Publisher: Penguin Books,India (25 Jan 2007)
· Language English
· ISBN: 0144001497
Reviews
Synopsis
'The facts are as stated here...I have set down of good and bad whatever is known.' "The Babur Nama", a journal kept by Zahir Uddin Muhammad Babur (1483-1530), the founder of the Mughal Empire, is the earliest example of autobiographical writing in world literature, and one of the finest. Against the turbulent backdrop of medieval history, it paints a precise and vivid picture of life in Central Asia and Afghanistan - where Babur ruled in Samarkand and Kabul - and in the Indian subcontinent, where his dazzling military career culminated in the founding of a dynasty that lasted three centuries. Babur was far more than a skilled, often ruthless, warrior and master strategist. In this abridged and edited version of a 1921 English translation of his memoirs, he also emerges as a sensitive aesthete, naturalist, poet and lover. Writer, journalist and internationally acclaimed Middle Eastern and Central Asian expert, Dilip Hiro breathes new life into a unique historical document that is at once objective and intensely personal - for, in Babur's words, 'the truth should be reached in every matter'.
Ravi,
Nandibum cannot answer basic questions. So let us ask you (You might want to scroll up to see nandi's response so that you do not repeat what he said, which was practically nothing):
a) Why is that rajputs and Jats are socially so different? If they were same people
they should be socially same. Rajput women do not go and work in the fields
while Jat women do. (Do not give me one off examples. We are taking about
what generally happens in Jat and rajput villages).
b) Why is that rajputs and Jats do not intermarry?
c) Why is it that the ancient Hara, Khichi clan of chauhan rajputs absent in Jats?
(Hooda is not acceptable as Hara because if rajputs can retain Hara/Khichi so
should have Jats if they were same). Hara rajputs ruled Boondi and Kotah.
Prithviraj Chauhan belonged to the Khichi Shakha of Chauhans. http://www.uq.net.au/~zzhsoszy/ips/misc/chauhan.html
d) Why is it that both jats and gujjars claiming the exact same things:
Gujjar claim:
a) Maharana Pratap was a gujjar
<!--QuoteBegin-digvijay+Aug 29 2006, 11:00 PM-->QUOTE(digvijay @ Aug 29 2006, 11:00 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->As I said once before Rajputs never had Jats as there ancestors. Neither Huns/Mers/Meena/Chandals/Foreigners etc.
The above statement is just not right and written in haste.
The link that I am providing below is from the memoirs of a British recruiter, Maj LWA Lyons, who in 1942 was on a recruiting mission in India, specifically Rajasthan area. The link shows Meena were termed as Rajputs in the areas around Kota and Bundi.
Here is the link and the decision is for readers to decide whether Digvijay is misguided or not:
The second paragraph states:
In the back of this book there was a separate section relating to the criminal tribes of India. Amongst these were bandits, the Dacoits, who lived by swooping down from the hills to raid villages (as so graphically portrayed in the film âThe Long Dualâ). One of these groups was the Rajputs, who had a subgroup the Mena Rajputs. It was men from this tribe that I was to recruit. We were to go up to Rajaputan, and a district called Kota Bundi, to the South of Jaipur.
In the opening para the writer states very clearly about Jats including few other groups:
Among the listings were the âMartial Racesâ like the Jats, Sikhs, Maharatas, Dogras and so on, that contributed to the 19 regiments of foot, and 21 regiments of cavalry, which formed the Indian Army. (The 10 regiments of Gurkhas were not included as they were a separate entity). All these tribes and races had at this time been recruited to the full extent.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dildar+Aug 30 2006, 04:03 PM-->QUOTE(Dildar @ Aug 30 2006, 04:03 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-digvijay+Aug 29 2006, 11:00 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(digvijay @ Aug 29 2006, 11:00 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->As I said once before Rajputs never had Jats as there ancestors. Neither Huns/Mers/Meena/Chandals/Foreigners etc.
The above statement is just not right and written in haste.
The link that I am providing below is from the memoirs of a British recruiter, Maj LWA Lyons, who in 1942 was on a recruiting mission in India, specifically Rajasthan area. The link shows Meena were termed as Rajputs in the areas around Kota and Bundi.
Here is the link and the decision is for readers to decide whether Digvijay is misguided or not:
The second paragraph states:
In the back of this book there was a separate section relating to the criminal tribes of India. Amongst these were bandits, the Dacoits, who lived by swooping down from the hills to raid villages (as so graphically portrayed in the film âThe Long Dualâ). One of these groups was the Rajputs, who had a subgroup the Mena Rajputs. It was men from this tribe that I was to recruit. We were to go up to Rajaputan, and a district called Kota Bundi, to the South of Jaipur.
In the opening para the writer states very clearly about Jats including few other groups:
Among the listings were the âMartial Racesâ like the Jats, Sikhs, Maharatas, Dogras and so on, that contributed to the 19 regiments of foot, and 21 regiments of cavalry, which formed the Indian Army. (The 10 regiments of Gurkhas were not included as they were a separate entity). All these tribes and races had at this time been recruited to the full extent.
Dildar,
You should have asked me and I would have told you about him and others.
British started census in India in second half of 1800 and during this census anyone could say whatever he felt like.
So muslims at the time of census taking, who converted from Hinduism to Islam, and happened to be rajputs before conversion, were recorded as rajputs! And till today consider themselves as rajputs. It is another matter no hindu rajput considers them rajput. So self delusion cannot be helped.
Even in today's India, in rajput villages the non-rajputs (like Teli, Julaha, Badhai etc) use the surname of the rajputs of that village and often introduce themselves as rajputs. So what you are saying is neither new nor going to end i.e non-rajputs identifying themselves as rajputs.
ABUSE OF MAHARANA PRATAP (From Jatland Forum).
---------------------------------------------------------------
This is what a Jat has written on Jatland forum about Maharana Pratap. On this
same thread, Ravi Chaudhary had chimed. Ravi somehow did not feel the need
to counter this idiot who posted such foul language against the great Maharana.
So one wonders is this how hindus are supposed to talk about there ancestors?
Ravi and rest of the jats is this how you talk about Surajmal or Charan Singh?
What basis do you have in claiming Pratap as a jat when your Jat brethern hurl
such abuses at him?
quote-
yonto, haldighati me khali 3000 sena thi rana pratap ki. half of them were muslims about 1500 under Hasan Khan Mewati. Out of remaining 1500 about 1000 were Jats. Out of remaining 500 mostly were bheels and local tribes. Rajputs were hardly not even hundred in that battle. Un ke pas tir talwar aur bhale bhi nahin the. Patthar ludhka ludhka ke Akbar ki sena ko darane ki koshish kar rahe the. Within just an hour that battle of haldi ghati was over. His chetak could not even cross a small drain and died. And this neele ghode ka aswar us neele ghode ne pakad pakad ke rowe tha. Kori bhar ke us ki dead body ki. Us ka bhai Shakti Singh us ke khilaf tha. Us ka baap Udai or beta Amar mughlan ke pithhu the. Bus ek ya hi Rajputi khandan te alagh paida hoya tha jo revolt kare tha. Vo bhi koi Desh or Dharam ke liye nahin sirf apni Chittore ke liye. Aise to bhatere Jat apne gaavon ke liye ladte mare, bhatere bhai un ke bhi chope dhor marye, ek adha naam bhai Jaton ke bhi chope dhor ka itihas me likh dyo.
-end quote
quote-
within half an hour that battle of haldi ghati was over. bheel ke bharose lada rana pratap and later he tendered apology also to akbar. but akbar did not forgive him.
-end quote
quote-
How chetak died? Rana pratap ne apne dar ke maare use khoob daudaya? Chetak could not cross even a simple drain. Whenever, Rana was about to loose the battle he fled from the battle. Saari zindagi idhar udhar dubakta phira tha vo. Per ek baat ki daad deni padegi us ki ke vo bhagne me itna mahir/ustad tha ke Akbar ke haath nahin aaya kabhi. ..LoL....
-end quote
quote-
Rana Pratap's stature in history nowhere stands as compared to any usual Jat king like Nahar Singh etc. but still we find many many places after his name. Its irony.
-end quote
quote-
We Jats have nothing to be much pride of do char ganv ka raja like pratap. We had bigger kings like Surajmal etc.
-end quote
quote-
Do not question the knowledge of a scholarly person like Ravi Chaudhry ... .... Ravi Ji has done a lot of research on Jat History as is evident by his posts in the History section and the Jat History group initiated by him @ Yahoo ....
Though I donot know him personally i can vouch for the fact that his knowledge of history .. especially Jat History is undoubtledly scholarly extensive ..........
-end quote
If you wish to participate and learn from a discussion , you must follow the thread scientifically and to its logical conclusion. Not throwup side threads contuniously
1. First we must deal with your misconception that Beveridge's original (1921)translation refers to Rana Sanga as a Rajput. It does not
Dilip Hiro's abridged version( 2006) is the only one that contains that, and we must logically conclude that he fabricated this information.
Why is another matter?
You have been misled by Hiro,. either that , or knowing that he has made a fabrication, you are wilfully misleading others.
Which is it?
Once we know where you stand on that question, I will be glad to discuss each and every matter that you bring up.
<b>
ON GROUPS.</b>[U]
Each group has their own viewpoint.
I cannot speak for other groups. Nandibum has explained that qute well.
I do not like closed groups, but they exist and have membership rules.
As Nandibum , has pointed out I am moderator for the Yahoo Jathistory group
I have extended that welcome to you before. You have not taken it up. Do take it up now if you wish. Indeed some your complaints are Jat specific , and that forum may be a better place for you to argue out your views, and clear up your ideas.
The group was formed in 2002 specifically to act as an archive for Jat History related material, and to clear up misconceptions both among the Jats and the NonJat community.
We have succeeded to some extent, and the material is increasingly being used by historians as reference material
The Yahoo jat history group should be treated just as a library.
The files section contain some online books, and as your interest in History grows, I hope you will find that of use.
As a result we have many members from across all communities. Many members of the Old Indian Civilization list are members, as are academics from all across the world.
The archives are public. The files section requires membership. That is a yahoo feature, for some reason. It is a drawback.
Membership requirement is only keep trolls and spammers out
Membership is only a click away, and approved for all. If trolls appear they are removed.
The only rules are, you must be courteous and professional, no four letter words.
