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Sanatana Dharma - Aka Hinduism (1st Bin)

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Sanatana Dharma - Aka Hinduism (1st Bin)
Dharma
e-book by Justice Rama Jois
http://www.vhp-america.org/dynamic_include...MA_Ram_Jois.pdf
  Reply
Doxographies - Why six darshana-s? Which six? (pdf)
Prem Pahlajrai

These days it is commonly held that there are six darshanas or systems of orthodox or Astika Hindu philosophy. These are usually enumerated as three pairs: nyAya and vaiSheshika, sAMkhya and Yoga, mImAMsA and vedAnta. The heterodox or nAstika systems are typically enumerated separately: the jaina, Buddhist and the Materialists (the LokAyatas/chArvAka-s). This paper explores why traditional doxographies are often preoccupied with enumerating only six systems and which systems they choose to enumerate.
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Manache Shlok and Dasbodh with english translation. From Samarth Ramdas, Shivaji's Guru. My own chosen guru too. In today's day and age, he should be the Guru of everyone who wants to establish Dharma and defeat the assorted mlecchhas that are destroying Dharma.

http://www.geocities.com/ssksearch/tulsi/mind/mana.html
  Reply
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Ramakrishna Paramhansa's Interest in food</b>
As interpreted by Osho

It is said about Ramkrishna that he was much too interested in food;
in fact obsessed. That is very unlikely. Even his wife, Sharada Devi,
used to feel very embarrassed; because he was such a great saint, only
with one flaw – and the flaw was that he was much too interested in
food. He was interested so much that while he was giving satsang to
his disciples, just in the middle he will say, "Wait, I am coming,"
and he will go to look into the kitchen, what is being cooked. He will
just go there and ask, "What is being prepared today?" and then will
come back and start his satsang again.

His closest disciples became worried. They said, "This doesn't look
good, Paramhansa. And everything is so perfectly beautiful – never has
there walked such a beautiful and perfect man – but this small thing,
why can't you drop it?" He will laugh and will not say anything.

One day his wife Sharada Devi insisted too much. He said, "Okay, if
you insist, I will tell you. My prarabdha is finished; and I am just
clinging with this food. If I drop that I am gone." The wife could not
believe this. It is very difficult for wives to believe in their own
husbands – even if the husband is a Paramhansa it makes no difference.
The wife must have thought that he is befooling, or he is trying to
rationalize. Seeing that, Ramkrishna said, "Look, I can see that you
are not trusting me, but you will know. The day I am going to die,
just three days before that day, three days before my death, I will
not look at the food. You will bring my thali in, and I will start
looking in another direction; then you can know that only three days
more am I to be here."

That too was not believed; they forgot about it. Then, just three days
before Ramkrishna died, he was resting, Sharada brought his thali, his
food: he turned over, started looking at the other side. Suddenly the
wife realized, remembered. The thali fell from her hands, she started
crying.

Ramkrishna said, "Don't cry now. Now my work is finished; I need not
cling." And exactly after three days he died.

He was clinging in compassion, just trying to create a bondage with
one chain. The imprisonment is gone; the prison has disappeared. Out
of compassion he was trying to cling, to linger a little longer on
this shore, to help those who had gathered around him. But it is
difficult to understand a Paramhansa. It is difficult to understand a
man who has become a siddha, a Buddha, one who has emptied all his
sanchita, all accumulated karmas. It is very difficult. He has no
gravitation, so Ramkrishna was clinging to a rock.

The rock has gravitation. He was clinging to a rock so that he could
linger on this earth a little longer. When you have samyama, a
consciousness fully alert, you can see how much karma is left. It is
exactly like when a physician comes and he sees and touches the pulse
of a dying man, and he says, "Not more than two, three hours." What is
he saying? By long experience he has come to know how the pulse beats
when a person is going to die. Exactly that way, a man who is alert
knows how much prarabdha is left – how much pulse – and he knows when
he has to go.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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^


Lovely line drawings of our Gods which my dad had found on the web -
<b>Download:</b> http://www.megaupload.com/?d=6R1TXOGY (zip file ~4.5 Mb)

Hindus with kids anywhere in their family can give these to them for colouring or for drawing inspiration. They really are lovely.
Hindus here who want to do some colouring themselves: no one can stop you and the rest of us can't possibly find out <!--emo&Wink--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->

- Brahma, Saraswati, Vishnu, Lakshmi, Shiva, Parvati, Shanmukha, Ganapathi, Durga are there
- Two different-sized copies of one set of our Navagrahas and another version of the Navagrahas (but this second version is missing Guru)
- Sapta Matrukas (sp?) aren't complete: Chamundi is not in there, the rest are accounted for
- Dasaavataram
- Only some of the Gods presiding over the Directions are there (Indra, Agni, Varuna, Surya), others are not there (Kubera, Vayu, Nirut, Ishanya - sp?)

If anyone wishes to complete the Directions, or draw a Chamundi and an extra Guru using the <i>same artistic style</i> - please upload a copy. An Ayyappa would also be very much appreciated <!--emo&Smile--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> And if anyone wants to make yet another Agni, please share. The important thing is that you'd need to get the Vahanam right for each God (e.g. Vayu's is a deer), what items each God carries and in which hand, or what else they do with their hands (e.g. abhayahasta), and any other defining characteristics.


Most of the images are smallish since they were taken from a Russian site which had used existing images in its pages (Indian drawings, traditional Indian paintings, photos of Indian sculptures) to explain a few things about Hinduism and its Gods. But the Russian site didn't have two of the Navagrahas who *were* fortunately provided at another site, and the larger version of Surya is also from elsewhere. If anyone finds a site where all the images are available at their original resolutions, I'd be grateful to know of it. In the meantime, these will serve.
  Reply
Husky,

Here are plenty of engaging colouring sheets for your pleasure. A dozen colouring pages (bhUmAtA etc). Couloring sheets with AchAryas like vAlmIki, vyAsa, tukArAma, rAmakR^iShNa and tulasIdAsa. And here are hanumAna, indra, garuDa, gaNesha, and tathAgata (oh, disregard the corpse-came-alive). you were looking for ayyappa?, you also get dattAtreya, mahAvIra and ve~NkaTa.

Now how do we send these crayons for you? ( <!--emo&Smile--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> just kidding)
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<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Jan 27 2009, 02:25 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Jan 27 2009, 02:25 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Now how do we send these crayons for you?  ( <!--emo&Smile--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->  just kidding)[right][snapback]93916[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Hahaha, nice try Bodhi. But don't go offering what you obviously don't have anymore... You know very well by now that it was me who stole *your* crayons, because when you sat down to colour all those exciting new pictures this morning, you looked in your beloved crayon box and found them all missing. And then you naturally thought "That Husky!"
How unkind of you to suspect me first thing... I do protest. But you were right.
Finders Keepers. Sorry, but it's the Law of the Jungle out here, Bodhi.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Here are plenty of engaging colouring sheets for your pleasure.  A dozen colouring pages (bhUmAtA etc). Couloring sheets with AchAryas like vAlmIki, vyAsa, tukArAma, rAmakR^iShNa and tulasIdAsa.  And here are hanumAna, indra, garuDa, gaNesha, and tathAgata (oh, disregard the corpse-came-alive). you were looking for ayyappa?, you also get dattAtreya, mahAvIra and ve~NkaTa.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I know both those colouring sites already from when my sister and I were hunting them down for some nieces and nephews. But thank you.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->oh, disregard the corpse-came-alive<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I know, annoying that it was there amongst our Gods. Why do Hindus keep doing this to themselves...
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Mahabharatam - Telugu and English
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I want answer to acusations and critics that are bring to ISKON
1- is misionarirm a bad thing?
-Gods make misionarism too(by sending revelations and inspirations).
-Parent make misionarism to their childrens by teaching them usefull stuff.
-good people teach others good things
-bad misionarism is when triks or force are used
2-Is ISKON a non-traditional doctrine?
The docrine of Iskon is the same as that of traditional vaisnava traditions were the devotion is directed to Vishnu or Krishna.
Sadely hinduism is stereotyped as having only impersonal(or transpersonal as they like to name themselfs) doctrines such as buddhism or smarta(advaita) while personalist doctrines like vishsitadvaita,dvaita or dvaitadvaita(similar bheda-abheda) are ignored and only abrahamic religions have this credit.
Swami Vivekananda introduced impersonal hinduism to non-indian world and 70 years later Prabhupad introduced personal hinduism to non-indian world.

3-Have vishnuism and Krishnaism monotheist doctrines?
-there are 2 types of monotheism:
impersonal/transpersonal monotheism,when God(or"God") dont have atributes or have only negative atributes as in buddhism,taoism,smartism(advaita).
personal monotheism,when God have atributes,especialy positive atributes like in vishnuism,judaism,zoroastrism,christianism.
Is also a diference in goal,impersonalism have the goal to reach emptiness,non-activity,void,non-determination,while personalism have the goal to reach an eternal joyfull activity in God company.
In some doctrines God is both personal and impersonal in the same time;but for impersonalists the impersonal part above personal part,while for personalists the personal part is above impersonal part in both goal and common practice(the way).Seem they cant have equal share for logical reasons.
There is only one supreme God Krishna(ergo monotheism) but from him emanates an infinite number of persons of 2 kinds-infinite as Balaram,Vishnu and Shiva and finite(like us humans and Brahma).
The essence is personal,the source is personal,the energy is personal,everything is personal.Thats krishnaism.
4-Is ISKON a suporter of christianism and islamism?
Many hindus suport these 2 doctrines including famous impersonalists like Ramakrishna,Sai Baba,...so why blame only personalist hindus ?
Many hindus belives that Jesus and Mohamed was good and moral guys but later their followers twisted their teachings.So no wonder that is a common request of hindus to christians and muslims to go back to original teachings of peace and love of these 2 gurus.
Is not the monotheism responsable for christo-islamic violence as comonly belived but the doctrine of monarhicism-Is not biblical God shaped like a Middle Eastern emperor,king or pharaoh whit absolute powers,asking for total obedience and gelous to his harem?PS-seem like foreing gods(idols) trying to enter in the emperor harem.But dont worry,soon ISKON will face the intolerance of christians and muslims and will see if this will change their opinions about them.
I wait any critic and try to respond to any acusations bring to ISKON.
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<!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+Feb 2 2009, 02:43 AM-->QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Feb 2 2009, 02:43 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I want answer to acusations and critics that are bring to ISKON
[right][snapback]94123[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Romani, if Hindu Dharma is what you are interested in, <i>I think</i> you'd be happier in a more traditional branch. That's just an opinion from my own experience with general Hindu Dharma and my knowledge of ISKCON.
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I read hindu philosophy and practice from the age of 13.
I enjoy indian art and music and try to promote its aestethic principles.
Planing to open a yoga center in the next 3 years.
Defender of hinduism and indian culture in front of malicious or ignorant attacks and promote to thoose which are interesed.
Im not a member of ISKON but i have 2 friends there and a vedic astrologer.
Iskon and vishuism doctrine and philosophy are in concordance whit my own philosophical quests.
So i belive that Iskon is one of the few genuine traditional hindu branches in the non-indian world,though some members may have some deviant opinions .
This is from my experience and this is my opinion.
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HareKrishna:

Haribol. I have been going to Iskcon weekly house and temple meets for over a year now. It is a genuine path, scripturally supported, and the devotees have a great sense of brotherhood amongst themselves as well as a genuine sense of devotion to Krishna, who is scripturally supported as the Supreme Bhagawan.

My problems with iskon, though are as follows:

1. They are disonnected from reality, in that they do not know about the depredations of islam and christism, they continue to treat these 2 as some kind of a misguided form of vaishnavism.

2. They think the priority is to clarify the subtler points of what Krishna said; they do not give priority to solving the Hindus' problems. They dont consider themselves Hindu, which is fine with me if they at least saw the murderous cults of islam and christism as enemies of Krishna and vaishnavas. But they dont, they are too lazy intellectually to read up on isl/chr by themselves. They dont even see that *as per Krishna*, wiping out adharma in the firm of i/c is what needs to be done. Nope, they are too busy co-opting i/c. Pathetic.

3. They say they love Krishna, but keep praising jesus and mohamed, whose followers have been instructed to wipe out HIndus, vaishnav and all. Now would a genuine father praise the people who are out to kill his son? Do if the iskonites love Krishna as a son (or as a father, a lover, or whatever), then why do they tolerate islam and christianity?

---Well at least in my meets this problem has been resolved, I make it a point to staighten out anyone who shows any softness for islam/chr.

If this point is resolved in all of iskon, I would say iskon has the prowess, teh organizational skills, and the missionary zeal to raise up Dharma. Iskon will have problems with Shaivas, but that is negligible compared to the benefits accrued.

Basically this resolution about the real nature of i/c is *the* thing that needs to be worked out with *all* sampradayas: vaishnav, shaiva, bouddha, jain, BAPS, you name it...that is the real answer.

*Once* i/c are put in their place, vaishnavas and shaivas can have a robust debate on the finer points of Dharma amongst themselves, and I will be happy to serve panchaamrut and prasadam to all participants <!--emo&Smile--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&Smile--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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<!--QuoteBegin-Shambhu+Feb 2 2009, 10:58 AM-->QUOTE(Shambhu @ Feb 2 2009, 10:58 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->HareKrishna:

Haribol. I have been going to Iskcon weekly house and temple meets for over a year now. It is a genuine path, scripturally supported, and the devotees have a great sense of brotherhood amongst themselves as well as a genuine sense of devotion to Krishna, who is scripturally supported as the Supreme Bhagawan.

<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like it or not islam/chr somehow win the battle in show themselfs as the moral base despite their past(and present).I wonder if iskoneites will change their view when will face the intolerance of christian/muslims ,already started in some places like in Kazahstan.But Prabhupad is authoritative and if he speak positively about Christ no wonder that iskonites in general have the same view.In fact most of hindu gurus who travel in USA and co. share this positive view of this 2 religios regardless of their hindu afiliation(yoga,jain,vaishnav,shaiva,tantra).It could be brahmo samaj,bahai,Cao Dai,teosophic,new age influence all wich see Jesus and Mohamed as gurus.

Problems whit shaivas?
It could be that some iskonites influence by christianity could see Shiva as hindu equivalent of christian Satan.But this is a clear misunderstanding.First of all Shiva is a God,an infinite expansion of Krishna;Is the part of God which iskonites see as being in contact whit the negative part of the material world(God doing the dirty job),while Vishnu is seen as God in contact whit the positive part of the material world.Shiva is easy to anger but also easy the please so demons and fakirs pray especialy to Shiva.But Shiva is the best devotee of Vishnu and a very big ofence is to insult a devotee of God.Thoose who insult Shiva are doing a great mistake.For shaivas is diferent.Their see Shiva as supreme God and Vishnu as one of his devotees.Kind of reverse situation.However i dont see the vaishnavas and shaivas will go beyonde healthy debates whit logical arguments and start burning at the stick shaiva heretics or beheading the vaishnava infidels.The worshipers of Shiva will go on Shiva-loka which is not a bad thing at all.
However iskonites have a double standard,they use the hindu standard for other hindu branches(the traditional view) yet for non-indians religions(especialy dominant ones like islam-chr) they use a kind of new age standard.

Seems that converts to hinduism become somewhat soft ,pasive ,unwilling to fight for dharma and against adharma as stipulated in Gita.Influence of ghandism probably.
Is hard to call yourself hindu because hinduism is like hellenism.What is hellenism? is the gnosticism?mistery cult?cult of olimpian gods?ancestor worship?imperial cult?maniheism?SToicism?platonism?phtyagoreans?alchimism?heros cult?serapism?mithraism? all this have doctrinal diferences betwin them.

But may be is a good thing after all that a personalist brach of hinduism is there,christians preachers especialy present hinduism as cold,nihilistic,impersonal,solitary,inactiv;while them are positive,activist,warm,loving etc.And majority of people prefer a positive aproach to religion.As hinduism as presented cant offer this..the rabbit from the hat....,christians are the only personalists in the world only ones engaged in an eternal activity of fun and worship in Presence of a personal God.I kow people that renunce to hinduism because of this fact-that they see it as a solitary,impersonal and nihilistic religion and convert to christianity.
  Reply
HareKrishna:

The positive views on isl/chr are there, I am not denying it.
I am saying that it took time for this positive view to be built up, and it will take time for the reality to come out. Exposing isl/chr has just started with the web coming out, that is what, 20 yrs? And the web was nowhere near today's web 10 yrs ago. While the building up process has had centuries to implant itself thru kings, colonialists, and missionaries.

Shaivas: You got me wrong. I am not saying shaivas are a problem. I am a shaiva myself, I do not believe in changing one's kuladaivat just because you go to iskon. I am saying iskon will have problems with shaivas. Because telling hard core shaivas that "Shiva is very good, what you are doing is good, but krishna is supreme" will not amuse them. Shiva is supreme for them. Period. At least the hard core ones. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I could not care either way, as long as people are Dharmic. But problems will arise, that is all I am saying.

Yeah, I know about iskon's views on Shiva, he is the premier vaishnav or close to that.
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Respected Sir/Madam,

FOSAPAH (A wing of Sri Ramanuja Mission Trust) the institution founded by Sri Chaturvedi Swami, for knowledge dissemination and installation of peace and Harmony and India's Century Mission of Heritage Academy, Bangalore, organizes a <b>seminar on Indic Leadership </b>at India International Centre, Delhi on February 15, 2009 from 9.00 a.m to 4 p.m. We wish that you will make yourself available and make the function fruitful by your valuable participation. We also wish that the message is passed to your friends, likeminded and other well wishers.

Kindly accept this as a personal invitation and grace the function with your presence.

Thanking You,
With high regards
Sri Ramanuja Mission Trust
Chennai

http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2009/02/sem...ernational.html
  Reply
<!--QuoteBegin-Shambhu+Feb 8 2009, 12:04 AM-->QUOTE(Shambhu @ Feb 8 2009, 12:04 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->HareKrishna:

Shaivas: You got me wrong. I am not saying shaivas are a problem. I am a shaiva myself, I do not believe in changing one's kuladaivat just because you go to iskon. I am saying iskon will have problems with shaivas. Because telling hard core shaivas that "Shiva is very good, what you are doing is good, but krishna is supreme" will not amuse them. Shiva is supreme for them. Period. At least the hard core ones. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I could not care either way, as long as people are Dharmic. But problems will arise, that is all I am saying.

Yeah, I know about iskon's views on Shiva, he is the premier vaishnav or close to that.
[right][snapback]94352[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im sorry Shambhu for bringing the bad news.For vishnuites,Shiva is on the second place and probably Vishnu is secondary for shaivas.Personaly i want to learn more about shaivas.What are the shaiva teachings,what is the ultimate and eternal goal?

The problem was whit Husky which in his battle agains Iskon,hit not only them but also in other branches of vaishnava(70% of hindus estimate) and even hinduism.Vaishnava are monotheist in general and vishuites(Sri Sampradaya,BAPS) belive about Vishnu the same things that krishnaites(Nimbarka,Vallabha,Iskon) belive about Krishna.
Husky sometimes mix some kind of neo-hinduism(that type expresed by western intelectuality) and folk religion.Nothing to say but he confuse monotheism whit monarhicism,no matter that hindu monotheism( as expresed by vaishnava and Iskon) is very different from abrahamic monotheism.
There are 2 ultimate and eternal goals;to merge whit impersonal Brahman,or a relation whit personal Brahman.And the personal Absolute doesnt change from one person to another as Husky belive.Brahman(personal Brahman) have his own individual and favorite preferences just like we have owr own.
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<!--emo&Smile--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
HareKrishna, there is no bad news!

Re Shaiva teachings etc, the web will give you much better info than I ever could..

I am a Kashmir Shaiva by birth. You can find Swami Laxmanjoo's teachings in the web.
http://www.koausa.org/Saints/LakshmanJoo/article2.html

There are other Shaiva branches too. I have this book, its good:
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/mws/

Of course, I go to "BG As It Is" readings/discussions weekly, and I have a couple "Krishna: The Supreme Personality of Godhead" books by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust and also Saaratha Varshini TIkA by someone (Vaishnav) Thakur, I am sorry I forgot the name (also from BBT).

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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem was whit <b>Husky</b> which in his <b>battle</b> agains Iskon,hit not only them but also in <b>other branches of vaishnava(70% of hindus estimate) and even hinduism.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->What the? What did Husky do to the Vaishnavas and 'Hinduism'? <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->


Romani,
I'm going to try to keep this short.


1. Vaishnavas (I speak of the Tamizh kind) are very, <i>very</i> different from ISKCON. Vaishnavas are not 'monotheists'. Most of them have Vishnu + Lakshmi. Or Rama + Sita. These couples are INSEPARABLE. (There is no Rama without Sita, there is no Vishnu without Lakshmi - if not at his side, then Lakshmi literally resides in Vishnu's heart/chest always.) Some Vaishnavas have Krishna as their centre, others always add Radha, or else they keep Krishna with Rukmini. They all hold that these are ultimately my Mahavishnu and Lakshmi - well, in the case of Rukmini and Sita.

Look in any MahaVishnu Kovil (for example Sri Rangam where Ranganathar + Ranganayaki reside, or say Tirupathi where you have Venkatachalapathi + Sri Alamelumangathaayaru). Everytime I go to India, older family members there take me to visit many of our Kovils all over the 4 southern states, and in every Vishnu temple it is the same.

So I'm not sure what you mean when you say
<!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+Feb 13 2009, 11:41 AM-->QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Feb 13 2009, 11:41 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Vaishnava are monotheist in general[right][snapback]94547[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I should tell you that Tamizh Vaishnavas at least - like my mum's friends here and my family's old friends back home - find ISKCON very alien.

<b>CORRECTED (previously had left out the crucial word 'no'):</b> There's no need for me to write more about ISKCON at this point.


2. 70% of Hindus are Vaishnavas? Makes sense that that would be the perception in the west. I didn't know the percentage they had decided upon, but I had already worked out that they think it is the majority, because they focus on attacking Rama and Krishna most frequently.
But not all Vishnu (Rama, Krishna) Bhaktas are exclusively so, meaning they are not literally 'Vaishnavas'.


3. <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->and probably Vishnu is secondary for shaivas<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->In some Shaiva streams, yes. For example, among Lingayats every God is considered to come from Shiva as a manifestation of him, including Shakti who is seen as an emanation of Shiva.
But this is not the case with all Shaivas.

For other Hindus (Shaivas/Shaktas for instance), all the Hindu Gods come first, but people can choose one or more Ishtadevas and of course we have our Kuladevas. Every God for us IS the Supreme God: every God on their own, or together, or all together. It does not matter.
This is a very common view in the part of Bharatam I come from.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Husky sometimes mix some kind of neo-hinduism(that type expresed by western intelectuality) and folk religion.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Allow me to know my Hindu Dharma.
I'm the sort of traditional Hindooo in whose family the Grandparents would take us to the backyard where the cows are, and then sprinkle cow urine over our heads as we have our hands folded in Namaskaram. (Hindus from Tamizh and Karnatakan villages will recognise this practise.) Yes, I'm *that* type of mowgli Hindoo that you can find in christobritish picture books marked as "satan's own spawn" with the 'disgusting' practises. (Coming from those genocidal christomaniacs, one can only take it as a compliment.)

Almost my entire family, from my ancestors down, is what the Abrahamic religions would call "polytheist". You are not familiar with my kind of Hindu, but it is incredibly common throughout TN, Karnataka, remote parts of Bharatam (so-called 'tribal' areas), Sri Lanka, Malaysia's Hindudom. And possibly other parts of Bharatam, certainly in the past.

Western people only know Hinduism Lite. They are only familiar with modern movements like ISKCON or Jai Swami Narayanan, or with the NRI branch of Arya Samaj (or they know of 'Hinduism' through some exercise classes advertised as 'yoga', through the modern movement called "Transcendental Meditation", or otherwise through popular internationally-moving Swamis) and think that they then know everything about God-based Hindu Dharma. You have been kept ignorant about the many other kinds of Hindus there are.
And it is intended that this problem of externally-enforced invisibility be further compounded by declaring that 'all Hindus only believe in One Supreme Being' as was recently declared by people who were *supposed* to be representing us in some Hindu-Jewish meet.
The Supreme Being for God-centric Hindus >= 1. Anyway, I haven't yet counted the Gods of the Taoists and Hellenes and Shintos and native Americans. Altogether it comes to >= 1.

I don't know any 'neo-Hinduism' except the modern movements. And it makes no sense for someone in ISKCON to be telling a traditional Hindu that they are a "neo Hindu" instead. I know very well what I am and can recognise what Radha Rajan and Rhytha are (and what Pandyas are) and many another Tamizh and Karnatakan person.
I have merely lived in a 'western' country for a long time, during which time I have observed and befriended the people where I live, but that's it. My mind works differently, it works Hindu.
I can relate with other Natural Traditions - some more so than others. I like learning about them. But for myself, I am a Hindu down into the very deepest of my layers (and it is from my Hinduness that I approach and understand other Natural Traditions).

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Personaly i want to learn more about shaivas.What are the shaiva teachings,what is the ultimate and eternal goal?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->God-based Hindu Dharma is the same whatever stream you take. Such a Hindu's goal is Bhagavan. Even famous advaitins including revered representatives of Advaita do moorthy puja and go to Kovil and think of Bhagavan in a manifestation (that is, with form), because these paths ultimately go to the same goal anyway. (E.g. Moothuswamy Dikshitar's songs on my Shiva are full of both Dvaita and Advaita views of Ishwara.) This is why Shankaracharya Mathas do temple pujas - because God(s)' manifestations are real - and the Hindus who feel an affiliation for these Shankaracharya Mathas also still keep to doing pujas.


If you feel uncomfortable with more than one God, just stick to Krishna as you have chosen. He has always been one of my Ishtadevas too. Read the Mahabharatam and a general version of the Gita - I personally find the ISKCON version is too full of their interpretations.
You like the personal God view, do you not? Wish there was a way you could get to hear the Ramayanam or Srimad Bhagavatam narrated by traditional Hindu narrators... Oooh, I know, what you could easily do is to collect traditional pictures of Hindu Gods from online and look at them. It's what many Hindus do. If you want a picture of Murugan (aka Kumaran aka Subramaniam), tell me. I know of a glorious one. My family had astounding pictures of Krishna, Ramar Pathaabishekam (sp?) and Mahavishnu, but sadly they're not online...



So much for my trying to keep things 'short'.
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<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Feb 14 2009, 05:19 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Feb 14 2009, 05:19 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem was whit <b>Husky</b> which in his <b>battle</b> agains Iskon,hit not only them but also in <b>other branches of vaishnava(70% of hindus estimate) and even hinduism.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->What the? What did Husky do to the Vaishnavas and 'Hinduism'? <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->


Romani,
I'm going to try to keep this short.


1. Vaishnavas (I speak of the Tamizh kind) are very, <i>very</i> different from ISKCON. Vaishnavas are not 'monotheists'. Most of them have Vishnu + Lakshmi. Or Rama + Sita. These couples are INSEPARABLE. (There is no Rama without Sita, there is no Vishnu without Lakshmi - if not at his side, then Lakshmi literally resides in Vishnu's heart/chest always.) Some Vaishnavas have Krishna as their centre, others always add Radha, or else they keep Krishna with Rukmini. They all hold that these are ultimately my Mahavishnu and Lakshmi - well, in the case of Rukmini and Sita.

Look in any MahaVishnu Kovil (for example Sri Rangam where Ranganathar + Ranganayaki reside, or say Tirupathi where you have Venkatachalapathi + Sri Alamelumangathaayaru). Everytime I go to India, older family members there take me to visit many of our Kovils all over the 4 southern states, and in every Vishnu temple it is the same.


2. 70% of Hindus are Vaishnavas? Makes sense that that would be the perception in the west. I didn't know the percentage they had decided upon, but I had already worked out that they think it is the majority, because they focus on attacking Rama and Krishna most frequently.
But not all Vishnu (Rama, Krishna) Bhaktas are exclusively so, meaning they are not literally 'Vaishnavas'.


3. <!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->and probably Vishnu is secondary for shaivas<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->In some Shaiva streams, yes. For example, among Lingayats every God is considered to come from Shiva as a manifestation of him, including Shakti who is seen as an emanation of Shiva.
But this is not the case with all Shaivas.




If you feel uncomfortable with more than one God, just stick to Krishna as you have chosen. He has always been one of my Ishtadevas too. Read the Mahabharatam and a general version of the Gita - I personally find the ISKCON version is too full of their interpretations.
You like the personal God view, do you not? Wish there was a way you could get to hear the Ramayanam or Srimad Bhagavatam narrated by traditional Hindu narrators... Oooh, I know, what you could easily do is to collect traditional pictures of Hindu Gods from online and look at them. It's what many Hindus do. If you want a picture of Murugan (aka Kumaran aka Subramaniam), tell me. I know of a glorious one. My family had astounding pictures of Krishna, Ramar Pathaabishekam (sp?) and Mahavishnu, but sadly they're not online...



So much for my trying to keep things 'short'.
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1.But also iskonites belive that Radha is inseparable of Krishna.Are krishnaites there that warship Radha more the Krishna(they say Krishna is pleased when Radha is worshiped),other worship Krishna asociated whit Balaram(his brother).And iskonites are really dvaita-advaita(or bheda-abheda).
Some find iskon a little alien.For exemple i talk whit an indian student here and ask him if there are doctrinal diferences betwin iskon krishnaism and his indian krishnaism.He said that there are no doctrinal diferences ,what he find diferent is that iskonites make big fuss of public shows while his indian krishnaism is more a "family buisiness".
2.That are the statistics,however i dont think that 70% of hidus worship Krishna-Vishnu alone.Vaisnava(including Iskon) claim that there are infinite number of gods outhere.Iskon say that if you worship Krishna you worship all the gods,while worshiping other god you worship only a part of gods.
4.Im aware of your type of hinduism ,as the folk is not much in the philosophical hair-spliting,but you know how indian doctrines take new greek names
advaita become monism
vishit-advaita,dvaita,dvaita-advaita(and bheda-abheda) become monotheism
devas become a kind of angels
yoga become method of relaxation
5. Venkatachalapath Sri Alamelumangathaayaru Madhurai -great temple outthere ;personaly north temples like Khajurajo seem more refined in decorations but this temples definately win whit the amaising colours like no other places in the world.Out of this world.
6.is no need to impress the jews whit any type of monotheism and rejection of polytheism.
7.Im sorry here ,but the Eternal Goal of krishnaites is not some impersonal and non-active void in which buddhist and smartas want to go.Krishnaites want an Eternal heaven that meaning an Eternal state of worship and blissful activites whit Krishna.Not nirvana or nirvikalpa samadhi(which they see as temporary states not eternal as buddhist and smartas belive).HERE IS the diference in GOAL.Yes Bhagavan.You get that right.
8.You are sure that my iskonite friends will not be offended if i put pictures of gods on the walls?Arent this gods devotees of Krishna and emanations from him,diverse parts of Brahman?Not worng to be souronded by gods everywere.
ps-thanks Shambu for the kashmirian shaivism views .
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<!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+Feb 25 2009, 01:57 AM-->QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Feb 25 2009, 01:57 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Some find iskon a little alien.For exemple i talk whit an indian student here and ask him if there are doctrinal diferences betwin iskon krishnaism and his indian krishnaism.
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Far from it, if one looks closely at the ancient gauDIya-vaiShNava tradition, it becomes clear that iskcon is simply a modern version of the same, and rather quite faithful to that root both in doctrine and in practice. If some Hindus find iskcon 'alien', they should also find that old school equally 'alien' too, if they examine it closely.
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