are the ISKON sect and its followers to be considered hindus??
just a question that popped into my mind, since Chaitanya was mentioned.
so far i know, they only rever Krishna/Vishnu, and not the entire gamut of hindu shastra.
i have similar questions about say ram krishna. he and his followers are Kali bhakts.
are devotees who identify with only one kind of hinduism (vaishnavism or shakti puja etc) or only one avatar of god (krishna or kali as in my examples) to be considered complete hindus?? should not the reverence to the vedas be paramount, over and above the worship of any one particular deity?
I HUMBLY OPINE THAT BY THE TERM HINDU U R SIMPLY REFERRNG TO A WHOLE GAMUT OF PEOPLE WHO SHARE CERTAIN COMMON BELIEFS. BROADLY THEY CONSIST OF VAIDIK AND AVAIDIK SCHOOLS OF THOUGHTS.
THAT IS THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN THE SUPREMACY OF VEDAS AND WHO DO NOT BUT STILL SHARE COMMON BELIEFS.
THE BASIC COMMON SUBJECT DEBATED (ALBEIT IN ACCORDING TO THEIR SCHOOL OF THOUGHT) IN ALL HINDU SCHOOLS OF THOUGHTS INCLUDING VAIDIK AND AVAIDIK IS JEEVA BRAHMA SAMBANDA.
TO PUT IT IN AN UNDERSTANDABLE ENGLISH, THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN WHAT U CALL AS A RELATIONSHP BETWEEN ALL LIVING BEINGS AND GOD.
ADVAITHA, VISHISTADWAITA, DWAITA, SHAIVA, SHAKTHA, VEDANTISTS, KAAPALIKA, TAANTRIKAS, BUDDHISTS, JAINS, SIKHS ALMOST EVERY SCHOOL OF THOUGHT DWELL UPON THIS QUESTION AND GIVE THEIR VERSION OF ANSWER. ONE THNG COMMON IN ALL THESE SCHOOLS IS THAT THEY ALL BELIEVE IN REBIRTH ACCORDING TO KARMA OR WHAT U CALL UR DEEDS IN THE CURRENT BIRTH.
WE HINDUS BELIEVE THAT IRRESPECTIVE OF THE PATH U FALLOW U WOULD REACH GOD DEPENDING UPON THE QUALITY OF UR DEEDS.
THIS IS UNLIKE ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY WHERE THEY VERY OPENLY SAY THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT FOLLOW THEIR RELIGION ARE DOOMED AND WOULD GO TO HELL.
WE BELIEVE THAT EVEN THOSE FOLLOWING CHRISTIANITY OR ISLAM WOULD ATTAIN SALVATION NOT ON THE BASIS OF THEIR BELIEF BUT ON THE BASIS OF THEIR DEEDS.
Can the people who hold that only Indians can be Hindus and are obsessed with race answer this passage from a recent interview of David Frawley:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Have you come across the view "one can only be a Hindu by birth"? What is your response to such people?
Yes I have come across this view. There are quite a few Hindus who hold to it. If I'm not mistaken, even Gandhi believed this.
On the whole, this point of view is illogical. There is no scriptural basis for it. Hinduism exists over a very vast area - all across the Indian subcontinent and even beyond, in places such as Bali. In the past, Hinduism's spread was even greater. Obviously, this would never have been possible if being a Hindu was only possible by birth. Furthermore, if Hinduism is truly Sanatana Dharma, the Eternal Truths, then its teachings must apply equally to all people, not just people who happen to be born into it.
Some non-Hindus, particularly evangelical Christians, also promote the view that one can only be born a Hindu. They find it a convenient tool to discourage seekers from studying Hinduism, by giving the impression that Hinduism is a close book that outsiders should not bother studying.
http://www.hinduvoice.co.uk/Issues/6/Interview.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And can someone tell me how many born Hindus have done as much as this black Swami for dharma:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->My guru guided me to establish a temple and monastery in Ghana to propagate Hinduism
I am a disciple of Swami Krishnananda Saraswati, who propagated Hinduism in Africa and also set up the Human Service Trust in Mauritius. I was born in the traditional African religion. Both my parents were priests. Initially, I became a Christian, but I was searching for the truth. I went through some books on yoga and discovered that Hinduism is a very good religion. It is open minded. It teaches you about God. It also teaches you about the science of the soul. Later on, I decided to go to India. I went to Rishikesh and stayed at Swami Sivananda's ashram, the Divine Life Society. There I found that Hinduism is a straightforward religion that revealed the truth. Later on, I came back to Ghana and tried to practice Hinduism as a normal person. At that time my age was 35
When I came back from India, I organized a group of people. Now, these were not ordinary people. I had university lecturers and lawyers. They were the core of the group that I formed. I exposed them to what I had learned from India. Some of the Indian families also came to my lectures. When Swami Krishnananda came from India, most of the Indians went to meet him. They told him that I had been to India and was practicing Hinduism. Then they introduced me to him. He told me that what I was doing was perfect, and that I should carry on with it. You see, not many swamis used to come to West Africa. And the ones who did come would stay for a week or two and go back. But it was Swami Krishnanand Saraswati who stayed there all the time. He gave me a lot of encouragement. I told him that I wanted to be a swami. When next he came, he told me that now he was going to fulfill my wish. He initiated me in sannyas. The president of the country attended my initiation in 1975. Then my monastic life started.
My guru told me, "You are the first African swami" and said, "To be a monk, you must get a place for a monastery." At the time, there was no one propagating Hinduism in Ghana. There was no temple or place where the people of Indian origin could go and pray. So my master told them, "What are you doing? You have such a good culture. You must practice it." Since 1975 to the present time we have made a lot of progress, with the blessings of God. I have set up five temples in Ghana and one temple in the neighboring country of Togo. We have no problem with the government. But there are a few individuals who feel threatened. They are scared of the popularity and spreading of Hinduism, and they would like to destroy it.
The future of Hindus in Ghana is very bright. We have to do a lot of work there. My guru told me to help orphans, disabled people and those who are suffering. He told me to do things so that people are attracted to Hinduism. I have been fighting to make Hinduism grow in my area.
My guru kept in touch with me almost till he breathed his last. When he was last in Ghana, he told me, "Swami Ghanananda, I am going. Now everything is in your hands. Try to do everything that I have told you." He gave advice to all the members. He told me, "Be in this monastery, available to the people here, so that if they need any advice, they can come to you. So, now you do not have to bother about anything, as you have everything with you. Try to meditate." And this is what I am trying to do since he left the world in 1992.
Hindu youth feel very happy after worshiping in the temple. But most of the youth, even Hindu youth in Ghana, act like they are Christians. As they are away from India, they are also away from the Indian values. For instance, most of them eat meat and fish. They like the discotheques. My job is to remind people why they have come to this Earth. We are not here to act like the clowns of a circus. We do not have many drug addicts, but we have people who have other negative tendencies. The challenge in Ghana is to continue with our Hindu practices and stay on the right path.
My message to the youth is that Hinduism should be taken as something which is a way of life and is not just going to the temple and performing certain rituals. By following Hinduism they should be able to lead a very good life, so that when they reincarnate, they get a good birth to continue their spiritual education. For now, they must do all the good that they can. If they do so, their future will be bright. I tell the youth that they must respect the elders and try to learn from them by sitting at their feet. You cannot learn anything if you do not pay due respect to your elders. The youth has to behave humbly and study the scriptures and live the life by the scriptures. Our Hindu youth should set an example for the rest of humanity by being on the correct path.
So far, I have not initiated any monks in West Africa. You see, Hinduism is a new thing there, and I do not want to make somebody a monk who later on abandons monkhood. It would bring a bad name to me and to Hinduism. I do tell people what is expected of them to become a monk. But there are many people who are just looking for a place to stay. They express their desire to me, but I say, "Sorry", to them. Consequently, I am facing a problem. I want more people to come and join me. I am getting older. I am sixty-five. If I pass away tomorrow, there should be somebody to take over. But at the moment there is nobody to carry forward this work. I pay a lot of attention to the youth, educating them in Hinduism. God's ways are mysterious. Maybe tomorrow someone who deserves to be a monk will show up.
Living as a Hindu in West Africa is not easy. You are threatened. What is needed is positive coverage from the African media. The media must write that Hinduism is something good. They have to tell people that Swami is a messenger of Hinduism like the other swamis of this ancient tradition. If something like this happens, then many of the people will want to join Hinduism. However, the present treatment by the media is not so fair.
Swami Ghanananda, 65, may be contacted at Hindu Monastery of Africa, P. O. Box 13693, Accra, Ghana. The above material is excerpted from his interview with Hinduism Today correspondent Rajiv Malik in Malaysia in February, 2003, following the Malaysia Hindu Sangam's Hindu Renaissance Rally.
06-28-2006, 05:19 PM (This post was last modified: 06-28-2006, 05:29 PM by Husky.)
Post 124 by Bharatvarsh -
I wholeheartedly agree with what is posted. The Ghanan Swami (Swami Ghanananda) is indeed a great Swami.
However, I feel that when 'pagan' people in other countries are attracted to Hinduism (the Ghanan Swamy was born in the traditional African religious system), they should practise the universal values of <i>both</i> these two 'pagan' religions (their ancestral one <i>and</i> Hinduism). In this way, the good, wise and invaluable things of their own ancestral beliefs will continue and not be abandoned.
At times I am under the impression that Hinduism re-fills those parts that might have gone missing in their own belief system (due to the adverse effects of colonization and in Africa's case also slavery under Islam and Christianity).
When I see good teachings in another religion that I have not come across (yet) in my own, I immediately absorb them into my life. Eventually, I have discovered that all these were mirrored in Hindu teachings as well. But there are cases where the same are expressed in a different manner, in say Taoism, that I come across first or which helps me digest faster.
Obviously, there must be many good things in African religion for Africa to have had so many good people throughout the ages. It is imperative that these good teachings be remembered and passed on to future generations and the world, else who will preserve them? It's also important for the continuity of their spiritual evolution and what they can teach all of us. All that is good and of value must survive.
The Ghanan Swami has an opportunity to do both, and I hope he will.
Well, as such, the modern term Hindu has come to mean a resident of Bharat who follows any one of the Indic religions, sects and sampradayas.
But if we delve deeper into the philosophical conotations of Hinduism and identity, the word 'hindu' would loose all its meanings.
For Hinduism (as well as any other Indic religion like Jainism/Buddhism/Sikhism/etc), the temporal body and its associated identities like sex, position, relationships are mundane, temporary and totally of no consequence to the Soul which is entrapped in these identities.
To free the soul is to give up much of these identities and associated karmic baggage.
So, if anyone strongly identifies himself as a 'Hindu', the person ultimately risks the danger of being bound to that identification which will force that person into samsara.
Both Advaitic/Dwaitic sampradayas stress the necessity to realise the essential truth that one is an Atman.
Having said this,
The necessity of an Identity as a Hindu *is* real and of utmost importance to distinguish our civilization from the nastikan/mellecha ones. Our Vaidika civilization needs to be protected at all costs, this being the duty of Kshatriyas.
THe recent trend of ALL MODERN gurus such as Sai Baba, SriSriSri Ravi SHankar and others to try to cater to the spiritual needs of the whole world irrespective of religion trying to fit Hinduism to the whole world is counter-productive.
Vaishnavism, Shakta, Shaivism have very strict rules of initiation into their sampradayas. These rules have their basis in Authentic Agamas and Vedas.
The whole Vedic Sacrifices and Upa-vedic literation lay down thousands and thousands of rules governing who can preside over sacrifices, who can conduct Homams, in which particular way and so on. It requires much preparation, both in Karmic way as well as scriptural knowledge to be a good 'Hindu'.
The modern Gurus are mocking at the religion and making a joke of becoming a Hindu.
There are great exceptions however.. lets see a few examples.
Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami (of Hinduism Today fame) belongs to an authentic Saiva Siddhanta school of Jaffna/Sri Lanka who was initiated into Hinduism according to Agamic rites and then into Sanyas by his most distinguised Gurudeva.
Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami, being a properly initiated Guru, in turn has institutionalised Agamic rules for foreigners converting to Saiva Hinduism, demanding that they substitute their western/other names with Hindu names and formally severing their ties with their old religions.
Srila Prabhupada of ISKCON fame never compromised even a tee-wee bit with Strict Gaudiya Vaishnavite life codes for those who converted to Vaishnavite Hinduism. THere were times when Srila Prabhupada was 'advised' that strict adherence to Vaishnavite lifestyle is impossibe for Americans and that he should 'americanise' his religion for mass acceptance by none other than the Beetles and Allen Ginsberg.. Prabhupada refused to bulge a bit.
Today, we see Sai Baba, etc calling to all and sundry, telling them that no change in religion is necessary, nor life style, even eating beef is perfectly OK, as long as they do this or that, they will attain salvation and find personal fulfillment, etc.
To Conclude, the identity of being a Hindu is one that comes after countless lives among lower species. To be born as a Hindu to Hindu parents in India is a life that even Devas worship and do austerities for millions of years to get. This identity is precious. Not cheap that any westerner can wear an 'OM' t-shirt, lisen to Goa trance and claim to be a Hindu.
It requires hard work and a life of renunciation to be a true Hindu. Much more to become one if one is not born as a Hindu.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Srila Prabhupada of ISKCON fame never compromised even a tee-wee bit with Strict Gaudiya Vaishnavite life codes for those who converted to Vaishnavite Hinduism. THere were times when Srila Prabhupada was 'advised' that strict adherence to Vaishnavite lifestyle is impossibe for Americans and that he should 'americanise' his religion for mass acceptance by none other than the Beetles and Allen Ginsberg.. Prabhupada refused to bulge a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So why exactly did he start praising Jesus and Hazrat Muhammad (that criminal SOB)?, since when did Gaudiya Vaishnavas start doing that?, I know other Hindus including Vivekananda did it too but the followers of these people don't get as self righteous as ISKCONites when it comes to diluting traditions and stuff but we see ISKCON doing the same kind of nonsense in praising Jesus and Muhammad but lecturing others about how they are Neo Vedantins and this and that.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hinduism as a Danish writer sees it
By Dhamu Chodavarapu
Other day I went to buy morning bread, there a lady, said to
me, "Are you not the person who writes in Nordjyske, a Danish
newspaper? I could not deny. She went on, "You put words on our
thoughts. Keep it on, why not write on Hinduism, we know nothing of
it." I said, "If I am to write on Hinduism, the newspaper has to give
special addition, but I will see if I can within the space allotted
to me."
Hinduism is not a religion in its traditional understanding. All
religions have a God and people worshipping in submissive way,
following do's and don't do's, dictated by Him in their daily life.
But Hinduism does not prescribe any such.
Hinduism is life style, where human beings are exalted to God
himself. Thereby it is atheistic religion, no God, everyone is God.
All living beings, human, animals and plants do have an element of
God, the soul and again a part of a kind of suzerainty.
Before 1829, there was no word as Hinduism. It was Christian
missionaries that coined the name Hinduism to corner and identify of
the religion.
It was known to Indians as lifestyle according to Vedas. The
term "Veda" means wisdom to understand and to know oneself. In
Vedanta, popularly called as Hinduism, maya, the unwisdom, a kind of
mental darkness, covers the Godly element, as ash covers the embers,
needs to be blown out to come to it.
Therefore, we have no 10 commands nor any do this and that. It is all
left to each individual how to blow the ash away.
It is both very good and very bad. It promotes individual
capabilities but the collective society weakens, looses. It was
therefore completely incomprehensive in any religious understandings.
If the man can control himself, what God is to do? Muslims gave up to
understand and used sword to convert Hindus and Christians.
Very heinous and barbaric crime is to deprive human to think and take
decision. It was/is exactly why Indian society was so much divided,
never was a unique unit. Every individual made a stall for himself,
it is what we know now is caste system. Indian society was divided in
various stalls without contact to the other. Wiser exploits unwise.
This was the backside of the medal. All religions try to create a
uniform society at the cost of individual freedom and have a rigid
central control.
The present Christianity in the West, is slowly moving towards
Vedanta understanding while Islam still waiting.
The central element in Hinduism is all moves in cycle around
suzerainty, with no beginning and no end. There was nothing that
evolves into an other soul. It was time when dinosaurs were
dominating, now it is human beings are dominating the earth. No
indication that human beings were not there, at dinosaurs' time.
The Hindu trinity, the creator, Brahma, did not create the human
being on one fine morning at 5 o'clock, but a thought is created, an
action is taken, a possibility opens up by Brahma, and Vishnu sees it
conducted perfected, while Shiva ends it. Then all start again, that
is how mathematical zero, was born in Hindu thinking. Karma ones
behaviour, decides ones future.
Rebirth, therefore, is not ununderstandable thought but a natural
part of life. A man is born again as man, cow as cow, likewise, as we
all know there are no DNA between man and animals.
Dharma, another central point in Hinduism, is a kind of human
behaving plan. It is neither, nor was decided by any central body,
but by every individual for himself. It needs wisdom. It can be
achieved by studying, listening and understanding the epics of Hindu
and performing certain rituals, meditation and puja. It gives
clarification to clarify the behaviour of humans in all situations.
What praying means to me: It is to get contact with God, who is in
me. The few seconds contact, I achieve, gives me a state of mind,
where I can identify myself completely with God and feel His presence
in me, knowing fully well I am too a part of Him. As if some thing of
me comes out as God and sometimes I talk to Him. It always ends
with "I can do it."
<b>Hinduism demands all to carry their duties and take responsibility;
therefore anybody can be a Hindu. It is, therefore, causing many
suffocations and indigestion to Muslims and Christian Missionaries to
convert Hindus by augmentations.</b>
<i>(The author who contributes frequently in Danish newspapers has sent
the English version of his latest article. He can be contacted at
Kajmunksvej 21, DK 9600 Aars, Denmark.) </i>
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
