<!--QuoteBegin-Pathmarajah+Apr 1 2005, 12:14 PM-->QUOTE(Pathmarajah @ Apr 1 2005, 12:14 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Viren+Mar 31 2005, 03:12 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Viren @ Mar 31 2005, 03:12 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Indian police wont do such a thing without credible evidence and not
while Jeya is in power.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you Viren.
As you can see, you have misread me. I said the police must have some credible evidence. And I said 'not while Jeya is in power', because she is a devout bakta (no matter her political machinations), and, of all the TN politicians, she is the closest and most supportive of JS. And that she would not purposely and mindlessly do such a thing to alienate her base. Do not be misled by the TN athiest politicians, the TN people ARE religious.
Anyway, it is not for her to decide the arrest or not; the investigating officer makes that decision and the PP prepares the charges based on the officer's file. The police merely informs the minister of their decision, and at most she can only delay the arrest, which I think she did. These are the normal police routines all over the world.
I did not say that 'jeya can do no wrong'. Hope this clarifies.
I know that Hindus are assaulted heavily on the caste issue, so it gives an impression that we are the only ones with a caste (portuguese word) system.
Do some research on Arab castes, and especially Japan (Burakamin are Japanese untouchables). Japan's industrialization gives many ideas on where India will head in the future.
All the caste problems are in rural villages or in Bihar overwhemingly.
Even today in Japan there is so called caste discrimination. This may make some interesting reading:
For "discrimination" discussions Pathama doesn't have to look any further than the town where his groupies established NS - hint it's not in India. Ofcourse, he'll feign ignorance and say he's not connected with them or will have a different standards of measuring discrimination in nations other than India.
For someone or some said organization to be screaming bloody murder about discrimination and prejudice, it is rather surprising that they do not take "Scape goating" in the very breath! For the sake of clarity, let's define scape goating or transferrence of blame. Scape Goating is
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Holding one person or group responsible for all the community's problems. Isolating or rejecting a person or group. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, for someone who wants to sell new scriptures, how can they sell their books without discrediting the existing ones? They know they cannot win in Academic and Scholarly debates, but sure will wing it in public debates using all the hot botton political and social issues.. Same funda behind missionaries, marxists and usual suspects too, makes one wonder where these (said) people get their ideas, inspirations and motivations from?
<!--QuoteBegin-Viren+Apr 7 2005, 07:08 PM-->QUOTE(Viren @ Apr 7 2005, 07:08 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Pathma,
You haven't answered....
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->So if any community or individual is prosecuted/persecuted/discriminated against, which of this 'P' is to be held accountable - Police, Public Prosecutor, their Political bosses or the Priests? Per your arguments, it seems that low paid temple preists seem to be calling the shots on this 'slient war'. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi Viren,
This is incompetant questioning. But,
1. if prosecuted, the PP is responsible (but he is legally immune in any society),
2. if persecuted and discriminated, the society as a whole is responsible.
Heads must roll. Can you figure this out?
Thought you could pin it on someone else, didn't you?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Do some research on Arab castes, and especially Japan (Burakamin are Japanese untouchables). Japan's industrialization gives many ideas on where India will head in the future.
All the caste problems are in rural villages or in Bihar overwhemingly.
Even today in Japan there is so called caste discrimination.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did all that Agnivayu,
Little parallels between dalits and burakumin. Indians take the cake in discrimination. Japan's industrialisation DOES NOT give an indication where India is headed. India is unique, and I feel brahmins as well as recalcitrant OBCs' are going to to be discriminated against in a globalised India, and most will be compelled to leave the country, the next batch of NRIs' shall we say.
Dalits will be a major purchasing power base, comprising 25% of the population by 2050 in the largest world economy and the neo-decision makers, having a decisive say in world stock markets', capital and bonds' issues and Indian defence contracts. Think about it - dalit economy then, 270 million strong with per capita income of $18,000 will be larger than Japan, Taiwan and Hong Kong put together today, or larger than the US west of the Rockies. Worrying isn't it? <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There is no place for Medieval Hinduism and Third World Hindu society in a First World India. That and medieval Islam is on the way out. It will simply be scotched and tossed in the trash can.
I'm sure you heard this here first.
Caste is not only in Bihar. Its everywhere, even among dalits. Discrimination has now translated into female infanticide in Haryana, Salem.... and all over. Its migrated to the US, Britain, and elswhere. Its mutating into 'religious exclusivism' in a new form in the Bochasanwasi, Iskcon, and many others. Its there in Malibu and Vallejo I tell you. This is one big bad mf virus. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->For "discrimination" discussions Pathama doesn't have to look any further than the town where his groupies established NS - hint it's not in India. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where do you live Viren? And what is the point of this line? We Hindus take care of our own. Thats all.
04-07-2005, 10:56 PM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2005, 01:53 AM by rhytha.)
Pathmarajah,
What madarsa logic.
Read your own links. The data (that you posted) shows that the number of crimes against dalits are BELOW the percentage of population of dalits. The data proves you were lying that 250,000 crimes were commited against dalits because they are dalits while the truth of the matter is that 250,000 are total number of crimes (including those commited by dalits on dalits themselves).
As usual, you are lying and spreading your racist bigotry.
This number of crimes issue needs to be settled. Rajesh has brought forth serious points against the 250,000 number that you had posted.
I would like to see some statistics from you that actually supports what you claimed. Otherwise it would serve the cause of truth if you acknowledged that your claim was wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Pathma,
You haven't answered....
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
So if any community or individual is prosecuted/persecuted/discriminated against, which of this 'P' is to be held accountable - Police, Public Prosecutor, their Political bosses or the Priests? Per your arguments, it seems that low paid temple preists seem to be calling the shots on this 'slient war'.Â
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi Viren,
This is incompetant questioning. But,
1. if prosecuted, the PP is responsible (but he is legally immune in any society),
2. if persecuted and discriminated, the society as a whole is responsible.
Heads must roll. Can you figure this out?
Thought you could pin it on someone else, didn't you?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is the questioning incompetant? Per you, police can do no wrong but then aren't they the ones responsible for crime control? So this 'silent war' is going on under the very noses of those cops who can do no wrong, but are they still right? Right?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->2. if persecuted and discriminated, the society as a whole is responsible.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So are you blaming entire nation or just a selective group for the ills in India?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->For "discrimination" discussions Pathama doesn't have to look any further than the town where his groupies established NS - hint it's not in India.Â
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where do you live Viren?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the question of your Indian origin was brought up couple days ago in another thread available on this open forum - feel free to search for it, I can see that you aren't interested in any other India related thread other than those specific to your agenda.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->And what is the point of this line? We Hindus take care of our own. Thats all.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"We" Hindus!!! Thank you Pathama but, after reading your diatribe on the 'silent war' in India which <i>'takes cake on discrimination' </i>from a fellow Indian(?)/Hindu like you, for some reason, that rabid racists Saudi or Paki mulla dosen't seem so bad after all. Afterall I too can use your twisted standards and dishonest interepretations of statistics to lay a claim and say Pakistan or Saudi is a mecca (pardon the pun) of true secularism and tolerance.
The point of me questioning you is fibing about the crime statitics in India to fit your argument. I was trying to figure our if Michigan crime figures are any better than India.
Few things that need to be kept in mind as far as the data provided by Pathmarajah is concerned.
1. 250,000 crimes are total number of crimes over a decade classified as crimes registered by dalits.
2. 1.77 million crimes total for year 2000 ONLY. I was being charitable when i calculated the percentage of crimes against dalits for a decade compared to total crimes in india for a year. When calculated over a year the percentage is even less.
3. There are 2 rows in the data that Pathmarajah provided (POA-atrocities act & PCR-civil rights act) which *might* hint towards crimes against dalits. The data (year over year) shows a marked DECREASE in 90s itself. There are problems with such classifications and special laws too but that is for a different debate. Even ignoring that, numbers under these heads are nowhere near the numbers that Pathmarajah quotes (why am i not surprised?).
In order to prove that there is a "silent war against dalits" the requirement is :
1. What is the percentage of crimes against dalits.
2. What percentage of these crimes is commited by upper-castes on dalits.
3. What percentage of crimes are commited by dalits on upper castes.
4. What is the percentage of crimes commited by dalits on dalits themselves.
5. What is the equivalent statistic when compared to others in the same economic category.
6. What is the amount of crimes per million in other countries as compared to India.
7. What is the amount of crimes per million for dalits as compared to other countries.
8. much more..
Allegations of 'genocide' are serious matter and need to be backed with solid data. Without this kind of support such claims will be treated for what they are worth -> statistical jugglery, bigotry and hate-mongering.
PS : What was that law about jew slaughter, khmer rouge analogies in internet forums ?
04-08-2005, 04:06 AM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2005, 04:07 AM by agnivayu.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Pathmarajah+Apr 7 2005, 09:48 PM-->QUOTE(Pathmarajah @ Apr 7 2005, 09:48 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Viren+Apr 7 2005, 07:08 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Viren @ Apr 7 2005, 07:08 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Pathma,
You haven't answered....
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->So if any community or individual is prosecuted/persecuted/discriminated against, which of this 'P' is to be held accountable - Police, Public Prosecutor, their Political bosses or the Priests? Per your arguments, it seems that low paid temple preists seem to be calling the shots on this 'slient war'. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi Viren,
This is incompetant questioning. But,
1. if prosecuted, the PP is responsible (but he is legally immune in any society),
2. if persecuted and discriminated, the society as a whole is responsible.
Heads must roll. Can you figure this out?
Thought you could pin it on someone else, didn't you?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Do some research on Arab castes, and especially Japan (Burakamin are Japanese untouchables). Japan's industrialization gives many ideas on where India will head in the future.
All the caste problems are in rural villages or in Bihar overwhemingly.
Even today in Japan there is so called caste discrimination.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did all that Agnivayu,
Little parallels between dalits and burakumin. Indians take the cake in discrimination. Japan's industrialisation DOES NOT give an indication where India is headed. India is unique, and I feel brahmins as well as recalcitrant OBCs' are going to to be discriminated against in a globalised India, and most will be compelled to leave the country, the next batch of NRIs' shall we say.
Dalits will be a major purchasing power base, comprising 25% of the population by 2050 in the largest world economy and the neo-decision makers, having a decisive say in world stock markets', capital and bonds' issues and Indian defence contracts. Think about it - dalit economy then, 270 million strong with per capita income of $18,000 will be larger than Japan, Taiwan and Hong Kong put together today, or larger than the US west of the Rockies. Worrying isn't it? <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There is no place for Medieval Hinduism and Third World Hindu society in a First World India. That and medieval Islam is on the way out. It will simply be scotched and tossed in the trash can.
I'm sure you heard this here first.
Caste is not only in Bihar. Its everywhere, even among dalits. Discrimination has now translated into female infanticide in Haryana, Salem.... and all over. Its migrated to the US, Britain, and elswhere. Its mutating into 'religious exclusivism' in a new form in the Bochasanwasi, Iskcon, and many others. Its there in Malibu and Vallejo I tell you. This is one big bad mf virus. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->For "discrimination" discussions Pathama doesn't have to look any further than the town where his groupies established NS - hint it's not in India. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where do you live Viren? And what is the point of this line? We Hindus take care of our own. Thats all.
A lot of what you said is Christian propaganda, indicated by your attack on only Hindus and Muslims.
A lot of caste discussions are flawed, because there is no such thing as 270 million Dalits ?, Dalits are not one simple ethnic group as is shown. They come from various parts of the country speaking different languages with not a whole lot in common. Discrimination against them is a local and not a national issue.
A lot of Christian missionaries didn't grasp this concept, and so assumed that their Jihad against Hinduism would be easy with simple propaganda. Unfortunately for them, even Christian rule didn't convert the heathens to their religion. I knew some Indian Christians who used to complain about discrimination from Hindus, until they got their a$$ whooped in the deep south in America by fellow Christians (rednecks)
Indian Muslims who have gone to Saudi Arabia suddenly love the racist Hindu after experiencing fellow muslim tolerance (Arabs consider all south asians as darker skinned inferiors) .
Every hour two Dalits are assaulted; every day three Dalit women are raped, two Dalits are murdered, and two Dalit homes are torched.
Despite the fact that untouchability was officially banned when India adopted its constitution in 1950, discrimination against Dalits remained <b>so pervasive</b> that in 1989 the government passed legislation known as The Prevention of Atrocities Act. The act specifically made it illegal to parade people naked through the streets, force them to eat feces, take away their land, foul their water, interfere with their right to vote, and burn down their homes. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No such hate crimes against any other ethnic, caste, religious or race group in India; not parsis, brahmins, sikhs, jains, buddhists, madrasis in Mumbai, banglas in Kolkota, etc. This is a silent war against a specific 'ethnic group'. The 'sustained occurences' over decades and 'the volume' makes it a non-state sponsored genocide.
The data from this link is also from NCRB the same place that I gave you the data from. It says "Table 1 All India-<b>Crimes against Dalits</b>-1992 to 2000" (page 14). I have given you the link for total crimes in India which is 1.77 million. 250,000 is about 15 % of 1.77 million while dalits form about 16.6 % of Indian population ? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which part of these statistics do you have trouble understanding? There are 252,000 crimes AGAINST dalits in a 10 year period. There were 28,000 in 2,000, and nearly 40,000 in 2001 provided in the other links. The minister said so in Parliament.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"The data (that you posted) shows that the number of crimes against dalits are BELOW the percentage of population of dalits."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These are classified as race/hate crimes. It should be zero, and not correspond with dalit population ratios. It shows you do not understand statistics. There are crimes everywhere in the world but there are zero hate crimes in most nations.
There are no statistics for dalit crimes against dalits. But that is not the issue; there should be none. Perhaps you are insinuating that its a dalit problem and nothing to do with Indians or Hindus? Hmm?
Ashok, Rajesh has not brought forth anything except his feigned incompetancy in understanding statistics or what the Indian minister said. The statistics are already there in that same link. A google search shows tremendous embaressing info.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, the question of your Indian origin was brought up couple days ago in another thread available on this open forum - feel free to search for it, <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There again - racists aren't they! I cannot keep track of all threads. Feel free to malign me when I'm not around. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> Anyone who wants to engage me can drop a note.
Rajesh and Viren, both of you appear to be trying to safe your sorry fasses in this forum by attempting to malign me. Don't. The Approver has given testimony. I checked; the judge has no 'wiggle room' to fudge. The case is lost. You'll were wrong. Faces are ditched in the mud. So dont bother anymore.
Agnivayu, 270 million dalits <b>in 2050.</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I knew some Indian Christians who used to complain about discrimination from Hindus, until they got their a$$ whooped in the deep south in America by fellow Christians (rednecks)
Indian Muslims who have gone to Saudi Arabia suddenly love the racist Hindu after experiencing fellow muslim tolerance (Arabs consider all south asians as darker skinned inferiors) . <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm aware of this. The christians and muslims will deal with their problems. We'll deal with ours.
Pathma
PS: K.Ram, give it a rest, huh? If HAF can engage me respectfully, why can't you?
There are people who talk, and others who walk the talk.
Recent NS happenings:
"We have a real village, real people--two castes live in the area. We have been asked to fund renovation of a temple in the 'paria' hamlet. I put the condition that the we'll help only if the temple is open to all--that fishermen caste are invited to the temple opening and have some people from the city attend it too. Also since is being done by a religious orgnaization--I wanted them to do an upanayanam ceremony for a few boys and girls in the village. They readily agreed!"
Pathama,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, the question of your Indian origin was brought up couple days ago in another thread available on this open forum - feel free to search for it,Â
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There again - racists aren't they! I cannot keep track of all threads. Feel free to malign me when I'm not around. Anyone who wants to engage me can drop a note. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, the question came up in a open forum, the posts are still there for you to read and or respond if you care. Frankly I don't give a figs leaf if you do or don't or what you think of those who questioned it. Why is anyone questioning somelse's nationality in a open forum a racists comment? Frankly I'd too if a postor who I've not met or seen comes to a Indian forum and says "<i>India takes cake in discrimination</i>" ignoring the very basic fact that India has in just past 50 years made more leaps and bounds in terms of trying to erase racial/social unequalities than most other nations. Either you are ignorant of those very Dalit leaders who are ruling in India and have been part of the law making/implementing process or you are feigning ignorance - either way, your positions, comments and the pedigree of those comments will be definitely be questioned in a open forum.
The fact that you don't track all threads is not my problem nor do I care. The point I was trying to highlight was that you don't bother to read all that's happening around with respect to either law, judiciary, politics or what-have-you and are posting your claims as the gospel truth. Which, I might add have been debunked by atleast half dozen postors on this very forum in past 6+ months. Now I can see the wisdom of likes of Sunder, k.ram and others who've just stopped debating with you.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Rajesh and Viren, both of you appear to be trying to safe your sorry fasses in this forum by attempting to malign me. Don't. The Approver has given testimony. I checked; the judge has no 'wiggle room' to fudge. The case is lost. You'll were wrong. Faces are ditched in the mud. So dont bother anymore<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So that's best you got Pathma? I thought you wanted to discuss issues here. Not sure about Rajesh, but feel free to abuse me on your forum too - I have absolutely no problems. If you are posting here, please grow up and don't get spagetti spined when it comes to backing your you statements and/or posts.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->No such hate crimes against any other ethnic, caste, religious or race group in India; not parsis, brahmins, sikhs, jains, buddhists, madrasis in Mumbai, banglas in Kolkota, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didnt I tell you there are close to 1.77 million crimes per YEAR in India ? Who do you think lives in India besides dalits ? In 2003 every day 90 human beings were murdered in India. Who do you think died besides dalits ? martians ? alpha centaurians ? But why would you care ? Per you, if its a crime against dalit its oooooooo big crime while if it is a crime against a brahmin/sikh/jain/etc that is just a crime yaar, happens all the time onlee yaar, not to be confused with real crimes which is crimes against dalits yaar, right ?
Re your point about "a law being passed" i see that as a good thing but also a bad thing - a double edged sword mostly for propaganda purposes. But as I said, "special laws" are an entirely different debate which i dont wish to indulge in at this point as it is in a much broader context.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Which part of these statistics do you have trouble understanding? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the one hajaar and oneth time, that these are TOTAL crimes against dalits. It does not say "All India Hate Crimes Against Dalits". Does it ? There are 2 heads that actually address the point that you are jumping up and down about which is POA and PCR. Go read the figures under those heads to get a better idea.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->There were 28,000 in 2,000, and nearly 40,000 in 2001 provided in the other links<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And there were 26,000 in 2003. But again total crimes - not hate crimes. Atleast it doesnt say so in this report from NCRB.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The year 2003 has witnessed a substantial decrease of 21.6 per cent in crime against Scheduled Caste as 33,507 cases reported in 2002 have declined to 26,252 cases in 2003. This decline was observed in all heads under which data of crime against Scheduled Castes were collected. Two main heads namely, Protection of Civil Rights Act and SC/ST (Prevention of Atrocities ) Act have reported considerable decreases of 37.7 per cent and 25.3 per cent respectively in 2003. Of the total cases (26,252) reported in the country, Madhya Pradesh alone has accounted for about one fifth (5,507) of the total cases followed by Rajathan 16.5 per cent and Andhra Pradesh (13.6 per cent).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And regarding the BS that you uttered..
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->There are no statistics for dalit crimes against dalits. But that is not the issue; there should be none. Perhaps you are insinuating that its a dalit problem and nothing to do with Indians or Hindus? Hmm?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh ! So now is it your claim that dalits never commit any crimes ? Hmm ? Hmm ? <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->A google search shows tremendous embaressing info.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like that national geographic BS that you posted ? "2 dalits are murdered per day" ? Well I got news for you buddy, 90 are murdered in India. What does that come upto ? Err.. less then 2% of total murdered in India are dalits ? What is the dalit population in India ? Err.. 15-16% ? What is embarrasing Mr Statistician ? That 90 humans are murdered ? Or that 2 dalits are murdered ?
If you start quoting numbers then show all numbers. For example, since there are no stats available about how many brahmins are murdered per year in India doesnt mean no brahmins are murdered. And even when you look at the overall crime figures in India look at other countries to get a perspective. And dont come up with stats like 2 dalits murdered per day. Come up with x dalits killed per million dalits as opposed to x brahmins killed per million as opposed to x blacks killed per million etc. Will help you prove your 'genocide' theory.
----------------------------------
Viren,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Not sure about Rajesh, but feel free to abuse me on your forum too - I have absolutely no problems.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He probably does it already. He has already threatened all brahmins to leave south india or else. He has already threatened all Acharyas to leave the country or else. He probably calls this forum a "brahminical/hindutva-fascist forum" or something.. <!--emo&:tv--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tv_feliz.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tv_feliz.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Pathmarajah+Apr 8 2005, 10:09 PM-->QUOTE(Pathmarajah @ Apr 8 2005, 10:09 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> There are people who talk, and others who walk the talk.
Recent NS happenings:
"We have a real village, real people--two castes live in the area. We have been asked to fund renovation of a temple in the 'paria' hamlet. I put the condition that the we'll help only if the temple is open to all--that fishermen caste are invited to the temple opening and have some people from the city attend it too. Also since is being done by a religious orgnaization--I wanted them to do an upanayanam ceremony for a few boys and girls in the village. They readily agreed!" <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pathmarajah,
YOu sound like an angry racist to me.
Are the malay muslims treating you like dog cr*p that you need to come crying to this forum ?
Your propaganda sounds very Paki to me, anyone who talks like you has got to be a racist Pakistani terrorist.
You still have a problem reading statistics Rajesh, although you are inching forward. I see you are not feigning incompetancy. It is real. My apologies.
Crimes against dalits are hate crimes, separately recorded by the Indian govt as crimes by non dalits against dalits on the basis of 'ethnic differences'. Usual crimes against dalits such as muggings etc are not recorded as hate crimes. <b>It must involve one ethnic group against another</b> to be classified as hate crimes such as poisoning well waters, gang rapes, burning of dalit homes, etc.
<b>these are TOTAL crimes against dalits. It does not say "All India Hate Crimes Against Dalits"</b>
More specific details are not available, but separate classifications means these are race/hate crimes. This is what is implied in the preamble and thru'out the report. The minster says so too.
Because such crimes against other 'ethnic groups' are negligible or non existent, it is not separately recorded.
90 murders a day is not embaressing given the pop size and world averages. 2 race/hate murders a day is! Caste crimes are decreasing in 2003 - that is wonderful! In no time it will be zero. I am happy already.
Now if it still bothers you, why dont you check with HRW as to whether there are such hate crimes. Better still, check with HHR; their existence is simply to see there is no such crimes in India or elsewhere. They have been awfully quiet on these statistics.
Or check UN Social Indices.
Viren, I dont criticise another in his absence. I do it upfront, in the face. Ask Rajesh. Rajesh and you flatter yourselves thinking that you are worthy of discussion or insults outside this forum. No, I'll do it right here, in this forum, as you invite me with your condescending responses. Do you have dalit or seer issues to raise that I can respond to meaningfully?
Agnivayu, you are starting to be insulting? Why? I have not given you a reason!
Apart from a racial riot in 1969, there have been 'zero' race/hate crimes in Malaysia in 40 years.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Viren, I dont criticise another in his absence. I do it upfront, in the face. Ask Rajesh. Rajesh and you flatter yourselves thinking that you are worthy of discussion or insults outside this forum. No, I'll do it right here, in this forum, as you invite me with your condescending responses.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you. That's all you can do - here or anywhere else.
Frankly, beyond this point, I don't see a reason for you pushing the NS groupie agenda here. If you can discuss Dalit issues here without hurling abuses on India, do so - not much latittude will be allowed beyond this. We don't allow a Pakistani to come here an insult India and you should be an exception just because you are/were a Hindu monk who with his online groupies claims to have a sole monopoly of saving Hinduism?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you have dalit or seer issues to raise that I can respond to meaningfully?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why? if have you havn't answered any questions raised by say people like Kaushal, Rajesh, Mudy, Sunder, k.ram, agnivayu, G Subramanium, Bhootnath etc.. what chance do I have? If I have to bang my head against the kind of logic that you present, I'll take my chances on some dalitstan site or a Paki forum.
Over half a dozen people have tried their luck and it's you who are flatterring yourself and no one else with your perverted logic based on twisted facts and selective interpretation of statistics.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->No such hate crimes against any other ethnic, caste, religious or race group in India; not parsis, brahmins, sikhs, jains, buddhists, madrasis in Mumbai, banglas in Kolkota, etc. This is a silent war against a specific 'ethnic group'. The 'sustained occurences' over decades and 'the volume' makes it a non-state sponsored genocide.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not long ago, in a conference, a western social scientist remarked that the rapid declines in fertility and mortality in many developing countries, far sooner than originally projected, although to be lauded will have negative repercussions. It means that western developed nations would no longer be interested in investing big money in population and developmental programs in these countries. Another scientist quipped amidst laughter that it also would mean loss of career opportunities for many demographers and population scientists in developed and developing countries who have made careers out of the population problems in developing countries, and that they would all have to find other "problems" to work on, such as HIV-AIDS, ethnic conflicts, etc. Although these observations were made light-heartedly, there is some truth to it.
The caste issue in India faces similar problems; it seems to have turned into a big political and economic farce in India, akin to the Black Supremacy movement in the US. The caste movement is no longer about reconciliation or improvments in the social or economic plight of the Dalits, and probably has never been in a very long time. Rather, there is big money and political power at stake for those NGOs and community leaders who claim to be working for the upliftment of these masses.
The NGOs, and self-proclaimed leaders and representatives of these socioeconomically backward communities that are supposed to helping to emancipate their communities are themselves interested in keeping the caste issue volatile, and perpetuating and sustaining the caste differences for their own political, economic or professional gains. And lest they lose this economic and political leverage, they make sure to bang their pots and pans, each time more loudly, to ensure that the world's attention is focused on the issue.
After all, if a war is over and peace declared, what happens to all the over-zealous generals? Well, the solution might be to ensure that the war is never over, or to start another war as soon as possible. It seems suspiciously that Pathmarajah is like that general who makes a life-time career out of a war and would be deeply disappointed if a peace-agreement was ever reached.
So all this howling is based on some 'implied' meaning. Just like JS is joker, trickster, criminal was based on some dream you had. Whatever you smoke, double the amount and one of these days I will come in your dream and explain this whole thing to you. Maybe that is when you will actually read/listen/understand.. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont criticise another in his absence.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey you did take a dig at IndianCivilization, the yahoo group here on this forum. Yeah ! very 'upfront'.. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Gotta go, real world calls.. <!--emo&:o--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ohmy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-sankara+Apr 10 2005, 10:33 PM-->QUOTE(sankara @ Apr 10 2005, 10:33 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> The caste movement is no longer about reconciliation or improvments in the social or economic plight of the Dalits,.... Rather, there is big money and political power at stake for those NGOs and community leaders who claim to be working for the upliftment of these masses.Â
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Some truth here. The christian-dalit NGOs are involved in perpetuating part of the problem.
But the rest of the conclusions in that post are wrong sankara.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont criticise <b>another</b> in<b>his </b>absence.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very clear and very upfront Rajesh, dont you think? Its about time YOU got real. (Why do you think I posted that? Or PMs in this forum?) And I know where your info on 'dreams' are coming from. And much more than that. Embaressing isn't it? Now you see what Viren is unknowingly howling about?
There is much to be embarressed about; its the non responses rather than the responses that tells. I pay much attention to the overlooking, skipping and glossing over. Dont take this as an affront but, this is not your league Rajesh, or Viren. You only serve a purpose. Heck, this is as much upfront as I can get.
And improve those reading skills would you? Implied <b>also</b> means 'taken as understood, in the passing though'. This is getting tiresome. So is the statistics mela over, no? Tch.. wat to do! <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Yes I vaiting for the satirist to be brought before the judge in cuffs. Vai do you think this wont happen? Come on! <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> Say something and crucify yourself. (pleasee!) I remember that you too kept away from posting comments in the seer arrest thread. <!--emo&:o--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ohmy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There are no dalit or seer issues to respond at this moment, so lets call it a day Viren. What do you say?
Yep...now sankara is wrong too <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rolleyes.gif' /><!--endemo--> Just like Rajesh was. And so were half dozen others trying to drum some sense for a good part of year.
Only Pathama here knows what he's talking about as rest are not in 'his league'.
Yes Pathama, I'm cannot be in a league of someone who wilfully overlooks overwhelming evidence of Indians doing their bit in removing caste/reglious discrimination and braying here that "India takes cake in discrimination". If so, then I'll comfortably state that rest of the world owns the bakery on this issue - including your Malaysia. You can come back and educate us about the Hindus and Dalits you've got elected/appointed as PMs or Presidents. Or maybe, your groupies can get say a Hindu or Dalit governor or senator from Michigan too one of these days. BTW, you are conveniently skirting the issue of your association with them on this forum.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->There are no dalit or seer issues to respond at this moment, so lets call it a day Viren. What do you say?
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Err.. you can call it day (or night), but in future posts stick to Dalit issues and don't bother responding to individuals who are "not in your league".
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--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rolleyes.gif' /><!--endemo--> Just like Rajesh was. And so were half dozen others trying to drum some sense for a good part of year.