Dalits - Real Issues & Discussion

07-02-2005, 01:19 AM

The following links put Dalit population in UP at 21% , Brahmins at 10% and Muslims at 19%. So I was mistaken when I thought Brahmins were more populous than muslims in U.P.

Also there is a curious justification given by Ambdkar for Shudras.

There is a mention that Dalits and Brahmins are now at the reciving end of most crimes and OBCs are the perpetrators.

Strange dynamics of caste equations... phew...

New friends
QUOTEApparently, the BSP is looking for support among Uttar Pradesh's 10 per cent Brahmin population.
...
The BSP's main arena is Uttar Pradesh. This is hardly surprising since the Hindi belt accounts for 21 per cent of the country's Dalits, the highest concentration of the community in comparison to Madhya Pradesh, Orissa and Kerala where the population is spread out.
...
According to the 2001 Census, Dalits constitute 16.5 of the population of Orissa, 9.8 per cent in Kerala, 15.2 per cent in Madhya Pradesh and 21.1 per cent in Uttar Pradesh. Though Sree Narayana Guru, the BSP' s icon, hails from Kerala, a solid Dalit formation is yet to emerge in that state.
Strategic alliance for self preservation
QUOTEKanshi Ram conceived the Backward and Minority Communities Employees' Federation (BAMCEF) as early as 1971 and registered it in Pune. It was converted into an all-India body in 1973, and re-launched in Delhi three years later with headquarters in Karol Bagh. Between 1971 and 2005, the BSP and a host of its affiliates officially held that the "Dalit-OBC-Minority" segment of the population is a common victim of caste-varna order.

The Dwijas, headed by the Brahmins, were depicted as the common tormentor. The caste arithmetic based on the 85 per cent Bahujan (as BAMCEF groups were designated) versus 15 per cent Dwijas, or Manuvadis, came into being. Between 1971 and his illness which forced Kanshi Ram to withdraw from active politics a couple of years back, he propagated his Bahujan ideology all over India. In the north, he left hardly a town uncovered in his travels. He was joined by Mayawati, who, along with millions of his followers, activated units in all states down to humble villages. How many hundreds of tonnes of newsprint was used in propagating the Bahujan ideology, telling the OBCs and minorities to join the Dalits as their natural allies will never be known.
...
Mayawati's Brahmin theory has its theoretical basis in the philosophy of BR Ambedkar himself. Ambedkar, in his celebrated book, Who Were Shudras, argued: (1). The Shudras were one of the Aryan communities of the Solar race ; (2). There was a time when Aryan society recognised only three Varnas, namely, Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas; (3). The Shudras did not form a separate Varna. They ranked as part of the Kshatriya Varna in Indo-Aryan society; (4). There was a continuous feud between the Shudra kings and the Brahmins in which the Brahmins were subjected to much tyranny and indignity; (6). As a result of the hatred towards the Shudras generated by their actions, the Brahmins refused to perform Upanayana ceremonies for the Shudras, and, (7). this denial led to the social degradation of the Shudras from the Kshatriya fold to something below the Vaishyas. Hence, they came to form the fourth Varna.

Now, history is hitting back with vengeance. All over India, the Shudras, or OBCs in constitutional vocabulary, have been claiming Kshatriyahood. But that status is not ritually confirmed by the Brahmins, and the Dalits don't recognise it either. With Kshatria-like domination over resources and institutions, the Shudras have become an innately violent social class. To them, violence is an urgent social necessity which brings their torn social emotions immediate gratification.

The proposed Dalit-Brahmin coalition is a coalition of the social proletariat and the cultural bourgeoisie. The British daily, The Guardian, published a story titled "Villagers fall victim to India's caste war" on June 14, 2005. The newspaper correspondent reported that there were 140 killings in the past year, and most of the victims were either Brahmins or Dalits. The majority of the accused persons were OBCs.

Believe it or not, upper OBCs have turned into headhunters, and the proposed coalition is just against that, of course, with an electoral strategy in mind. l

In Uttar Pradesh, tussle for Muslim votes
QUOTETug-of-war is evident among the different political parties in Uttar Pradesh to win over the hearts of the 19 per cent Muslim voters spread over 27 districts of the state.

07-22-2005, 05:53 AM

QUOTEDalits oppressing other Dalits

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main13.asp?fi...ont_look_at.asp
UNTOUCHABLES PART-I
Don't look at us, we are cursed

Meet the Puthirai Vannars, the outcastes of Tamil Nadu. A community that has
been suffering in silence for ages, in perpetual bondage to the dalits, and
living in isolation on the fringes of dalit colonies

By PC Vinoj Kumar
Chennai

Tamil Nadu Chief Minister J. Jayalalithaa should read this. This is bound to
infuriate her if she really meant what she said a few years ago while seeking
votes in Andipatti, that she believes in only one caste: the human caste. It is
bad enough that dalits cannot become presidents in reserved panchayats in Tamil
Nadu. But shamefully, things are worse for another invisible community living in
the state, a faceless, diminished people who are not even a 'mere vote bank' for
political parties. A people she may not even know - that they actually exist!

This is something that is hard to believe. A sin that has been covered up for
much too long. Unlike the oppressive patterns prevalent in the nation's caste
society, here the sinned are the sinners! This is the tale of a people who are
'untouchables' even for the 'historical' untouchables. A shocking revelation of
a people twice discriminated and daily trampled over.

Meet the Puthirai Vannars, the dhobis for the dalits of Tamil Nadu. A community
that's been suffering in silence for ages, in perpetual bondage to the dalits,
and living in isolation as 'outcastes' on the fringes of dalit colonies. Denied
human rights and self-respect, there is no political leader or party or
democratic institution to speak up for them in this big democracy that is India.

Condemned and mute, for centuries, they have been washing the clothes of the
dalits, giving them haircuts, slaughtering dead cattle, and doing other menial
jobs. To this day, they wash the bloodstained clothes of dalit women in labour,
and the clothes of dalit girls who attain puberty. Worse, till a few decades
ago, they were shunned as 'unseeables'. It was a curse to even 'look' at them.
In those days, the Vannars had to complete their work in the night and stay out
of sight of the other castes in the daytime.

If they ventured out during the day, they had to tie a coconut leaf to their
body, which they pulled along wherever they went. The frond swept the ground and
wiped out their footmarks. They could not even spit on the ground as the others
did so routinely. Instead, they had to spit into a halved coconut shell, which
hung from their necks. "This horrible practice had been in vogue for hundreds of
years. It was the Justice Party that enacted a law abolishing it in 1932. Once
declared illegal, the practice slowly faded out," says TM Prakash, a social
activist working among Puthirai Vannars in the dalit-dominated Tiruvannamalai
district. Not much headway has been made after that landmark social reform.

Today, an estimated two million people from this community are living in the
state. "Though we are found in most districts, about 50 percent of the
population lives in Virudhunagar, Villupuram and Tiruvannamalai districts. Our
people are slaves of the dalits - to the Parayars in northern districts, to the
Pallars in southern districts, and to the Arunthathiyars in western districts,"
says SB Udhaya Kumar of Ramnad, an upcoming leader from the community.

Slaves they are. You have heard of the dictum 'no work, no pay'. But for the
Puthirai Vannars it is all work and no pay. "They are treated like bonded
labourers," says Arul Valan, a Catholic priest in Villupuram, who is fighting
for their rights. "Each family of Puthirai Vannar works for a certain number of
dalit families in a village. They work hard round the year, washing their
clothes and doing other menial jobs that is required of them by tradition. But
they don't receive their wages in cash. Once in a year, each dalit household
they work for, gives them about 25 kilos of paddy. That's about it," he says.

There is of course the daily allowance - again in kind. It is the traditional
practice of Puthirai Vannars to go around the dalit homes, every morning and
evening, begging for food. Rosamma from Cuddalore says, "We cry out standing
outside the dalit houses, 'amma, soru podunga amma' (amma, please give some
food.) They give us leftover food which we collect in a vessel." For many, it's
a daily khichdi meal - of leftover food from dalit houses. Though in some
villages this shameful practice has finally ended, in many others the tradition
still continues.

07-22-2005, 07:08 AM

Long before Indepedence, GuruDev Rabindra N Tagore wote a poem:
'Where the mind is without fear'
excerpts:
O' God, let my country awake into the freedom
where head is held high
and there are no barriers of Caste, color and creed
The better way to deal with this problem of untouchability will be to have Economic criteria for reservation. <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/india.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='india.gif' />
'Delete Dalit slur from scriptures'
TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ THURSDAY, JULY 21, 2005 01:18:31 AM ]

Surf 'N' Earn -Sign innow

NEW DELHI: Delete "objectionable references" to Dalits from the scriptures if you want to intensify the fight against untouchability, says National Commission for Scheduled Castes chairman Suraj Bhan.
Bhan claims he has the blessings of the Sankaracharya of Sringeri Mutt has for his demand and he will soon meet other Sankaracharyas to garner support for his cause.
Addressing a press conference on Tuesday, Bhan said that references like dhol ganwar shudra pashu nari, sakal tadan ke adhikari (drum, illiterate, Dalit, animal, women, all are fit only to be beaten) in Ramcharitmanas should not be allowed in print in a society with a Constitution giving equal rights to all.
He said fresh edited versions of these scriptures should be brought out. Bhan said the Commission will hold conferences in all the states to "generate awakening" on the subject.
In a bid to garner support for his endeavour, Bhan met the religious head of the Sringeri seat earlier last week. "He has agreed to support my cause and asked me to speak to other Sankaracharyas on this issue and then a joint appeal can be made," he said.
Saying that Dalits were still subject to discrimination, Bhan said atrocities against them were continuing to rise despite government's attempts to control them. He said eight Dalits were killed in police custody last year. "The same story exists in all states," he said.
Recalling tales of tsunami survivors from upper castes refusing to share relief camps with Dalits, Bhan lamented, "Untouchability was in their minds despite having come back from the jaws of death.

08-13-2005, 02:17 AM

QUOTENational Dalit Conference Proves Christian Conversions a Sham

http://www.christianaggression.org/item_di...82917&type=news

MADURAI
Monday August 8 2005
newindpress.com

Political empowerment alone will not help end the historical and cultural injustice being meted out to Dalits in India.

It is possible only by working out an agenda for the overall liberation of Dalits by sustaining their cultural identity, said S Karuppiah, secretary of the Village Educational Service Association (VESA), here, on Sunday.

He was briefing reporters about a three-day national conference held at Kerala on âDalit culture and politics of resistanceâ. The conference was organised jointly by the Dalit Intellectual Collective, Delhi, Vikas Adhyayan Kendra, Mumbai, and VESA. He said that Dalit politics and politicians by and large have adopted a negative and antagonistic attitude in order to resolve their problems.

Refuting claims that religious conversion of Hindu Dalits to Christianity or other religions had brought about a change in their socio-economic status, he said, ââDalit Christians are fighting for equal rights and concessions alongside Hindu Dalits as there has been no end to discrimination against them.ââ

08-24-2005, 06:21 AM

QUOTEhttp://peacejournalism.com/ReadArticle.asp?ArticleID=5134
BY DILLIRAM KHATIWADA

JAGATPUR (SAPTARI), Aug 22 - A group of Maoists raped over two-dozen women of a
dalit settlement in Jagatpur-4 at gunpoint last week and threatened to
"completely destroy" the hamlet in case they disclosed the crime. The incident
came to light only on Monday.

WHERE R OUR DALIT HEROS AND CHAMPIONS !

About two dozen Maoists, who had come here five days ago, raped females of ages
between 22 and 35 years of age, some of whom are mothers of three to four
children. Nine victims recounted the harrowing experience in front of a group of
human rights activists and journalists who reached the village on Monday.

"They (Maoists) told us to prepare food in the beginning," said Shyam Kumari
(name changed), adding, "After they had eaten, they forcibly carried us inside
the houses and perpetrated the heinous act in front of other family members."
She was raped in front of her father and mother-in-law.

The youth of the village had left the area long time back due to increasing
Maoist activities and only children, women and the elderly remain in the village
now. There are about 25 dalit families in the village, in the north of the Koshi
river bank. Locals are terrified after the incident. "If they know that we told
you about the incident, they will come and kill us," said one of the victims,
sobbing.

After word spread about the heinous act, the Maoist leadership of the area came
to the victims and "apologized". "They prostrated themselves at the victims'
feet begging forgiveness and also pledged to take action against those
involved," said 65-year-old Gopali Khang, father-in-law of a victim.

Babaji Das, a local, said Maoists had carried out mass rapes on previous
occasions also, but threats of Maoist reprisal had sealed their lips.

"Although similar incidents have been taking place since long here, the locals
have finally opened their mouths as it has crossed all limits now," said Shankar
Giri, a local social worker. The terrorized locals have also asked human rights
organizations and journalists to help ensure security for them.

The Kathmandu Post.

09-01-2005, 02:51 AM

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivili...n/message/79306

QUOTEFrom: "Kalavai Venkat" <history_judge@...>
Date: Mon Aug 29, 2005Â 8:16 pm
Subject: Re: Kancha illiah against Christianity: check out - groups.google.com/group/DalitFreedomNetworkÂ history_judge
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
Dear Ayush,

Refer: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivili...n/message/79278

<<<Do you have any diagnosis as to why a " whole community" whose
roots are in Sanatana Dharma could have behaved that way ?>>>

First about DFN. Just as Dalitstan is an ISI sponsored, Southern
Baptist funded front based in Kansas, DFN is another missionary
front based in CO. A friend had called them at their toll free
number 1-866-921-1333. An American employee named Nikki answered. My
friend introduced himself as a journalist from Mumbai and asked if
DFN has any contact office in India. She replied, "It is All India
Christian Council. You can contact them. Their email ID is
info@..." When asked whom one should talk to in the USA
for a position paper on `Dalit' Christian women's emancipation, she
responded if this friend would like to talk to their Overseas
Evangelical Communications Manager, or if she could transfer the
call to AICC functionaries in India. She didn't know that AICC had
any phone number in India, so in all likelihood, it is a paper
office run by American missionaries. So, the supposed AICC
functionaries quite likely are residing in the USA.

Any of you can repeat the same experiment.

Friends, NONE of the organization which uses the word `Dalit' is
representative of Harijans. Ilaiah and Udit Raj are frauds on
American missionary payroll. These have absolutely no base among the
Harijans. They are merely doing the hack job for the American
missionaries in return for massive compensation. These guys can
never go against Christianity because the missionaries are paying
them huge money. It is a disgrace that Hindus are unable to see
through this decoy. How could anyone opposing missionary activities
negotiate with `Dalits?' Every person who uses the word `Dalit' is
harming Hinduism and playing into the hands of the missionary. If
you don't like Harijan, please use SC.

Now to Ayush's question.

The societies of the past were not individualistic as some of
today's societies are. It was always a collective decision. The same
feature helped countless jatis to upgrade themselves from Harijan
status to Brahmin Varna in less than 20 years [more on this, with
supporting data, in my forthcoming September article]. The reason is
not hard to understand. Today, one can break away from societal
norms and yet find a spouse. In the past, such digressions would
have negated one's chance of finding matrimonial alliance. The same
could be said of all other aspects of life. So, entire jatis, which
were anyway biologically related endogamous units, made a collective
decision. Unlike what the missionary history tells us, the past was
full of negotiated collective settlements.

Many jatis valued dharma over treason. This is why every time the
Muslims invaded, Jat youth died by thousands challenging the
invaders and left behind a trail of wailing widows. Those jatis
lived a life of honor and earned their place in the society. On the
other hand, some jatis quickly concluded, seeing the might of the
Muslim invader, that opportunism and treason would help them. They
quickly sided with them. In particular, the highly vocal `Dalit'
jatis like Mahar, Paraiyah and Chamar are extremely guilty on this
count. As Ludra has argued with solid data, these very jatis that
gleefully sided with the Muslims are unwilling to take up the
patriotic job of joining Indian army. Muslim invasions were
accompanied by unspeakable plunder and loot. The jatis which joined
the invader did so to share the loot.

Now, why is that some jatis stood by dharma while others had not?
The answer is in the kind of leadership and value systems those
jatis had. Why did the fragile community of Sri Vaishnavas of Sri
Rangam which faced the Muslim onslaught of the 14th century, without
any wherewithal, and lost 13,000 of their folks to the Islamic sword
make such sacrifices? They valued dharma, honor and their sacred
texts over shameful treason. Many of the Sri Vaishnava texts that
have come to us did so through single copies of manuscripts which
the Sri Vaishnava scholars hid under corpses of their own kith and
kin. Survivors retrieved the manuscripts after the Muslims left with
the spoils. Muslims sacked Sri Rangam but not before every Sri
Vaishnava Arya Bhatta, untrained in swordsmanship and completely
outnumbered, took to sword and died defending the gates of the
temple of his beloved Sri Ranganatha. The Koil Ozhugu account is
heart rending.

Also, if there was a good leadership within a jati, even if there is
no consensus, if a sizeable chunk listened to the leadership, they
broke away to emerge on top of the heap in the society in a dharmic
manner. Some time back, another list member gave me in private the
example of a branch of Tamil Paraiyah jati, who broke away in the
13th or 14th century, invaded Kerala and called themselves Valluva
Kon. As you might be aware, Valluva are a sub sect of Paraiyah â
Tiruvalluvar was a Paraiyah and that Kon means king or Kshatriya.
This faction negotiated and secured matrimonial rights and Kshatriya
status and emerged as today's top dog of Kerala: Menon!

I am tempted to speculate if there is a relationship between this
13th or 14th century breakaway and the Islamic invasion? Was a
section of the Paraiyah jati, an erstwhile distinguished right-
handed regiment, seeking a new identity because it was ashamed of
the treason of the other section of the jati?

Earlier I have discussed examples from dharmashastras and srauta
texts where some communities which are Brahmins today had been
declared mlecchas and non-Arya in the distant past. Every jati that
has ascended the hierarchy in the society earned it the hard way
through exemplary leadership and display of honor. Deviation from
the norms of dharma resulted in the loss of status of a jati. Every
jati that came to be despised has only itself to blame.

Hinduism has never been static. Dharma is something to work hard
for. If Hindus are serious about preserving their culture and
society, they should muster the courage to discuss the historic
facts as above. They shouldn't suck up to the destructive `Dalit'
activists, who have no social base. Even Ambedkar, also a fraudulent
missionary front man, didn't have any base outside his own Mahar
jati. He would've disappeared as a frustrated footnote had not the
idiot Rajendra Prasad bestowed him with generous offer. Sadly,
Hindus suck up to every thug even when it should be obvious that
they are missionary front men out to destroy Hinduism.

As I said earlier, anybody calling himself `Dalit' must be treated
with contempt and there shall be no discussion with him whatsoever.
Treat the Harijan with utmost respect.

Thanks.

09-01-2005, 03:00 AM

<img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/unsure.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='unsure.gif' />
I don't know what do u think is the full form of AICC but all I know:
All India Cong Committee
But the thing of this is to work for 'economic criterion' for reservation. To start with all those who have got jobs or positions should be taken off the reservation list.

09-01-2005, 03:17 AM

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IndianCivili...n/message/79142

QUOTEFrom: "koenraad_elst" <koenraad.elst@...>
Date: Thu Aug 25, 2005Â 5:52 am
Subject: Re: Dalit Racism?Â koenraad_elst
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
--- In IndianCivilization@yahoogroups.com, "Arun Salim"
<bodhiraksa@y...> wrote:
> I have just finished reading some copies of "Dalit Voice, The Voice
of
> the Persecuted Nationalities Denied Human Rights".
>
> Many of the articles are in praise of Hitler and vehemently anti-
> Semitic.
> Typical headlines are, "Jewish stranglehold on Germany. Wanted, a
> Hitler for India", "Zionists surpass Nazis in cruelty","Zionists
devour
> Christian West" and so on.
>
> There is a rave review of the book "Hitler Not Worst Villain of 20th
> Century as painted by Zionists" by Iqbal Ahmed Sharif, Advocate.
>
> Dalit Voice is similar in content to many neo-Nazi publications and I
> wonder if Dalits take it seriously or if it is only part of a Dalit
> lunatic fringe.<

I already wrote a critique of DV, to the same effect as your
observations here, in 1993 and again in a section of The Saffron
Swastika, 2001. I've lost sight of the fortnightly since then, but in
the 1990s its main support base was the Christian mission, and only in
second order the Dalit-wooing sections of Islam such as the Hyderabad
(ex-Razakar) Majlis-i-Ittihad-al-Muslimin. Many of editor VT Rajshekar
Shetty's booklets are but the text of his lectures given in Christian
forums. Christian mission papers in the West favourably quoted him,
keeping his more scandalous utterances out of view. I don't know if
they still do, have at any rate not noticed it anymore; in fact, I make
bold that my own exposing him and the Church's collusion with him have
made a difference.

Rajshekar, who is of course not a Dalit by birth, is a kind of Nazi in
two senses. Firstly, his explicit anti-Semitism, mentioned by you, and
also mentioned by Prof. Poliakov (with whom I was regularly in touch in
the last years before his passing) in his study of anti-Semitism 1945-
94 as the only instance of Indian anti-Semitism. Secondly, his copying
of anti-Semitic discourse in his own anti-Brahmin discourse. Thus, the
view of banker capitalism and bolshevism as two tentacles of a single
Jewish conspiracy is mirrorred in Rajshekar's view of Indian communism
and Hindutva as two co-ordinated tentacles of a neo-Brahminical
conpiracy.

When I gave a talk in Bangalore (where he is based) in 1996, I
personally invited him. At first he agreed, but on the day itself he
suddenly came up with very bizarre excuses, starting with the
inevitable RSS presence at the location as a reason to fear for his
life if he showed up, and then actually hid from me (his wife telling
me on the phone that he had to go and see his sister, then his sister
telling me on the phone that he had just left etc.). Maybe the
protagonists of Hindutva aren't such bright lights, but at least their
enemies aren't very impressive minds and characters either.

KE

09-06-2005, 10:16 PM

QUOTERSS slams âHindu hypocrisy and upper caste arroganceâ 
Sunday, September 04, 2005
New Delhi, September 4: In an unusually hard talk, the RSS has blamed âHindu hypocrisy and upper caste arroganceâ for the recent arson in Gohana town of Haryana in which several Dalit houses were set ablaze and even indirectly attacked BJP leaders for not applying the âsoothing balmâ on the wounds of the victims.

âEven if we try to view the incident in Gohana, removed from the political angle, it reflects the hypocrisy of the Hindu society and the cheapness and arrogance, which goes against national interests, of the so-called upper castes,â Tarun Vijay, editor of RSS mouthpiece Panchjanya said in a write-up in the latest issue.

Maintaining that the incident was âneither surprising nor new,â he said the scheduled castes and scheduled tribes in Haryana, Punjab, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and Rajasthan were victims of âdeep rooted hatred and neglectâ.

âThe so-called upper castes cover up all their misdeeds overtly and covertly through their fellow clansmen in the administration and media. Irrespective of parties and their colours, they are all alike when it comes to atrocities on the deprived sections,â it said.

Referring to the BJPâs September 1 decision to send a âfact-finding teamâ to Gohana, he said, âthe incident took place on August 27. The houses were set on fire on August 31. The news dominated every newspaper and television channel but till now, we have not heard of a single important Hindu political or social leader having visited the area and applied balm on the wounds of the deprived sectionsâ.
www.expressindia.com/full...wsid=53945

10-02-2005, 03:04 AM

Came via email..

Winds of change - Dalit priests no longer impossible
Aabshar H Quazi
Kota, September 29, 2005

The times are changing. People from backward communities, till a few years ago forbidden to enter some of the temples, are today being trained to become temple priests and are even performing private pujas. This is happening in Rajasthan's Kota district at the instance of the Rajasthan Sanskrit Academy and a Kotabased institute - Sanskritam.

Young Dalit boys are being exposed to various disciplines in Hindu priesthood as well as to the related subject of astrology. Though the training is not very extensive, Sanjay Sharma, a spokesperson for Sanskritam said, "We hope that some of the boys would go on to become priests and get absorbed in temples across the country".

At a 20-day camp held recently, nearly a dozen boys from different backward communities and some forward communities like Rajputs participated enthusiastically. Astrology and courses in religious rituals till now were the sole preserve of the forward Brahmin community. If there were objections to "untouchables" gaining access to divine knowledge, the Academy muted it as a tribute to the changing times.

Convenor of Sanskritam, Pandit Shyamanand Mishra told Hindustan Times, "Right to imbibe the knowledge of Vedas is not the sole authority of any sect or caste. It is ultimately in the interest of the backward community youth to learn priesthood for social change."

Asked if he was being "courageous" in trying to break into an upper caste bastion, a backward caste student, Rakesh Kumar, said: "Everyone is a Shudra by birth. Religious texts say that the caste system came into existence depending on ones deeds and action (karma)."

Asked if he thought he would be accepted as a priest, Rakesh said that he too would use the Pandit suffix for advertisements. Rakesh has also taken lessons in astrology and aims to become a perfect priest. Another backward community student, Suresh Kumar Patel was confident enough of becoming a complete professional.

Sharma said the institute has been holding training camps since past four years and the number of dalit students joining the course have gone up drastically. He accepts that not a single case of appointment has come to the notice of the institute so far.

10-19-2005, 06:00 PM

Who are the Real Dalits of India?

10-19-2005, 09:47 PM

Iliah/Raj and their missionary gang have used clever and obfuscating stats in their address that has been trashed in this thread itself. Somebody needs to write a proper article that critically analyses this and we can send it to the human rights caucus etc..

10-21-2005, 07:01 AM

There is no question about it. Udit and Kancha are traitors !!

http://www.asianage.com/main.asp?layout=2&...&RF=DefaultMain

QUOTEA faultline of Dalit politics
- By Amulya Ganguli

The Indian propensity to seek help from abroad for our domestic problems has a long history. The Communists routinely ran to their masters in Moscow and Beijing to ask for guidance in the conduct of their revolution. There were apparently more Khalistanis in the US, Canada and Britain than in Punjab.

The Nagas seem to prefer foreign locations for both running their insurgency and conducting their negotiations with the Centre. Other northeastern rebels have their bases in Burma or Bangladesh. Now, a section of the Dalits has taken their grouses to the US. In this group are an aspiring politician, Udit Raj, and an academic, Kancha Ilaiah. Not surprisingly, their endeavour has met with a measure of success.

Forever eager to poke their noses into the affairs of others, some American Congressmen have evinced an interest in taking up the causes of the "depressed classes," as the "untouchables" were earlier known. A resolution, prepared by the US house committee on international relations and the US human rights committee, has highlighted the continuing "atrocities" against the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes and has promised to end the "discriminations" against them. "It is in the interest of the United States," the resolution says, "to address the problem of the treatment of the groups outside the caste system ï¿½ in order to better meet our mutual economic and security goals."

Needless to say, much of this is simply hot air, which will be quietly dissipated without making an impact either in India or in the US. As the other ideological or community-based groups have found to their dismay, both overt and covert assistance from abroad is more a disadvantage than of any genuine value.

It can help to sustain an odd outfit or two, but the main drawback is that links of this nature, as in the case of the Communists and the Khalistanis, tend to create a gulf between the champions of a cause and their popular base. Help from America can prove to be particularly disadvantageous because its motives are almost always suspect.

As the linkage between Americaï¿½s and the Dalitsï¿½ "economic and security goals" suggests, sections in the Washington establishment may be looking for an opportunity to flaunt its concerns for the plight of the "untouchables" to wheedle its way into the Indian social and political system. That any such attempt will not make the US a favourite of either the Indian government or the Indian intelligentsia is patent enough.

It has been a feature of Dalit politics that the community has not always been served well by its leaders. One reason was their excessive preoccupation with their own community to the exclusion of everyone else. Evidence of this attitude could be seen in the offensively-worded slogan of the Bahujan Samaj Party: Tilak, tarazu aur talwar; inko maro joote char, meaning beat the Brahmins, Banias and Thakurs with shoes. As a result of such exclusivity, the distance between the Dalits and the mainstream public opinion was evident even in Ambedkarï¿½s time.

Ambedkar had no compunctions, for instance, in being a member of the Viceroyï¿½s advisory council in 1941, having joined Jinnah earlier in hailing the resignation of the Congress ministries after the outbreak of World War II as a "day of deliverance." Although Gandhi admitted that Ambedkar had "every right to be bitter ï¿½ that he does not break our heads is an act of self-restraint on his part," the intense preoccupation of the Dalit leaders with their own community has made them adopt distinctive positions which few other religious or linguistic groups have done.

An evidence of this mentality can be discerned in Ambedkarï¿½s assertion that "I have another loyalty to which I am bound and which I can never forsake. That loyalty is (to) the community of untouchables, in which I am born, to which I belong, and which I hope I shall never desert. And I say this ï¿½ as strongly as I possibly can, that whenever there is any conflict of interests between the country and the untouchables, so far as I am concerned, the untouchablesï¿½ interests will take precedence over the interests of the country. I am not going to support a tyrannising majority simply because it happens to speak in the name of the country."

Ambedkarï¿½s fears about a "tyrannising majority" were the same as Jinnahï¿½s. The concept of democratic governance may have also been unclear to them since their political instincts had been shaped by the long years under a "tyrannising" colonial rule and the rise and rise of a single party, the Congress, which unquestionably displayed authoritarian tendencies. But whatever the mitigating factors, the placement of the interests of his community above those of the country is not something which can be easily endorsed.

But what is distressing is that a new generation of Dalit leaders ï¿½ self-appointed or otherwise ï¿½ has revealed the same mindset because of their obsession with their community. True, there are other community-based parties in India, notably the Muslim League and the Akali Dal, as also caste-based parties like the RJD and the Samajwadi Party.

Then, there are parties like the BJP and the Shiv Sena which mainly represent a religious community, as well as parties like the two Dravida Kazhagams and the Telugu Desam which represent certain regions. But they are unlikely to take their problems abroad.

Aware that a democracy does not allow a "tyrannising majority," they are intent on battling their political adversaries within India and would be deeply embarrassed if any of their members sought help from a foreign power. Even among the Dalits, their topmost leaders like Mayawati, who likes to describe herself as a "living goddess," and Ram Vilas Paswan have kept their activities confined to India. Mayawati has also virtually disowned her partyï¿½s slogan quoted above, having realised that to make headway in a democracy, one cannot alienate anyone. But an even greater sin than sectarianism is to run abroad for help.

10-22-2005, 05:38 AM

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/artic...269825.cms
QUOTEWomen give Karva Chauth a beauty touch
Avijit Ghosh & Neelam Raaj

[ Friday, October 21, 2005 12:49:09 amTIMES NEWS NETWORK ]
NATHUPUR, SONEPAT: In Haryana's Nathupur, if it's Karva Chauth, a trip to the beauty parlour's a must. Fasting and facials, bleaches and benedictions go hand in hand. And Suman Devi, who runs a cottage beauty business, literally, hasn't been busier.

In the past two days, customers of all castes and age have eagerly trooped in. "Quite a few of them are Dalits," says the beautician. Barely a furlong away, mirror and mehndi are the points of attention in a Dalit home. Generation Next housewives in a Valmiki household are decking up for the day.

Meena, an attractive 20-something, has taken out her wedding finery while younger sister Reena, also married into the same family, puts on her lipliner. "These days, most Dalits do the Karva Chauth. And we do it in the same style as the savarnas (upper castes)."

It wasn't always like this. A decade ago only the brahmin and baniya women celebrated Karva Chauth in these parts of Sonepat district. But times have changed. Now, the Dalits not only observe the fast, they splurge. Some go to Narela, located on the western periphery of Delhi, to buy their saris, jewellery and make-up.

In fact, a Dalit woman also runs one of the three beauty parlours in the village and boasts of a clientele that includes jats and brahmins. Caste doesn't come in the way of business for village bangle-seller Sharda Bansal either.

"Many Dalits come to me to buy bangles for the festival," she says. Bansal has been too busy plying her trade to perform her own afternoon ritual of listening to the katha. "I have sold bangles worth Rs 1,500 to about 80 women today," she says.

10-23-2005, 11:48 PM

RSS urges war against 'evil' of casteismQUOTENEW DELHI: Expressing concern over caste-based political and social conflicts, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) has urged Hindus to "get rid of this evil at the earliest".

"Hindu society should take all necessary measures to ensure entry and access to every Hindu, irrespective of his caste, to their homes, temples, religious places, public wells, ponds, and other public places," a resolution adopted at the three-day national executive meeting of the RSS said. QUOTEAppealing for social harmony and Hindu brotherhood, the organisation warned the community against the political parties, which it said had been drawing "political benefits" out of casteism.

"Inventing caste based new conflicts in the Hindu society for the sake of political benefits has become a trend of many politicians these days." 

"Treacherous elements are also joining hands in this. To create the vote banks, these politicians are encouraging caste-based rivalries, which result in creation of various caste based clashes," the resolution said.

The RSS also has urged the political parties to keep away from "caste politics" which caused "deep divisions" in the society and to give an "Indian culture" to the democracy. 

Citing instances from the Hindu epics it said the religion always stood for lower caste people.

"No religion or sect is inferior to others. The whole society should be aware that every sect and caste of Bharat has a glorious history." 

The national executive has appealed to all sects and castes that they should not look down on other sects and castes. "The entire society should fully realize the essence of 'Na Hinduh Patito Bhavet' (No Hindu shall ever come to grief)," the resolution said

**acharya** · 10-25-2005, 07:48 AM

Caste war shows India's lowest class still faces struggle

By Kim Barker
Tribune foreign correspondent
Published September 21, 2005

BADHRAM, India -- The men say they have been forced to stay in their homes for weeks. No barber will cut their hair. They cannot buy food for their buffalo. And Bhim Singh, 65, was beaten up.

Their crime? They are Dalits, members of the bottom rung of India's caste system. They say they have been tormented for almost a month, since Rajneesh, a village Dalit, brushed his teeth and spat too close to the Hindu priest.

"God kill all of them," said Champa, Bhim Singh's wife, a Dalit who like many Indians uses one name. "Just see how painful this is for my man."

Village leaders, from higher castes, say they have done nothing wrong. They blame a few men on the other side of town for stirring up trouble.

But the conflict in Badhram shows what has happened to caste politics in India. Dalits, once known as "untouchables," are fighting back against oppression. They also are facing resentment.

Indian law guarantees equality for everyone, yet Dalits still are persecuted in many rural areas. In some villages they are not allowed to drink from the same well as others. They often are forced to perform menial jobs, cleaning toilets and watering fields.

In recent years, Dalits have won power in parts of India. A recent president was a Dalit, K.R. Narayanan, who was picked in 1997 for the ceremonial post. For the first time, Hindu scriptures are being attacked for insulting Dalits. And a law is being debated that would reserve jobs for Dalits in private industry--government jobs already are set aside.

But others are fighting any Dalit gains, on the street or in the courtroom. A recent Supreme Court ruling challenges quotas for Dalits in private universities.

2 factions fuming

In Badhram, the push-and-pull over Dalit rights culminated in a caste war that has lasted almost a month. Now the two factions sit fuming on opposite ends of the main road in town, about 50 yards apart.

A report last week by a Dalit activist group said the primary problem between the two groups in Badhram is "the assertiveness of Dalits to lead a life of dignity." The National Campaign on Dalit Human Rights said village Dalits were being oppressed because they refused to be beggars or forced laborers. The group is calling for the central government to intervene in the fight and for higher-caste villagers to be jailed and fined.

"A reign of terror prevails in the village," the report said.

Badhram, 60 miles southeast of Delhi, is a farming village of about 275 families--30 are Dalits, considered to be outside any caste. Just by looking, it is impossible to tell a Dalit from a member of one of the village's 11 higher castes. The Dalit wears a Ferrari T-shirt and works at a furniture store. The Brahmin, a member of India's highest caste, wears a Diesel T-shirt and runs a gym.

The Dalits here have a litany of allegations since Rajneesh and the Hindu priest fought July 24: Bhim Singh and two other elderly men were beat up. Four Dalit homes were set on fire. Half of one man's mustache was shaved off. Dalit phone lines were cut. A woman was stripped naked and threatened. The outdoor toilet area was closed down.

`They even have tractors'

Higher-caste members say the Dalits just want attention and set their own homes on fire, shaved their own mustaches and made everything else up. They say they are afraid and their lives are miserable because of Dalit oppression. They say the Dalits are treated equally in Badhram and live pretty well.

"They even have tractors and motorcycles," said Jagan Singh, a farmer and former village leader who belongs to the Zamindar land-owning caste. "They even have trucks."

"Mobile phones," one man shouted. "Color TVs," another pointed out.

"They eat butter chicken every day," Singh added.

He attributed the current trouble to a park on the other end of town, dedicated to Bhim Rao Ambedkar, considered the father of the Indian Constitution and a major proponent of Dalit rights. "I got them that park," Singh said. "Then they do this to us."

In a way, the village dispute can be traced to the park and Ambedkar, who with his thick, black-rimmed glasses resembled a 1950s-era accountant.

Five years ago, after reading many books about Ambedkar and Dalits, three Badhram Dalits decided to form a new activist group, the Youth Association of Bhim Rao Ambedkar. They tried to make sure Dalit children were educated. They said they persuaded two men, who had worked as servants for decades, to quit their jobs.

One of those men was Bhim Singh. Both he and his father had worked for Jagan Singh and his father.

Jagan Singh said Bhim Singh stopped working for his family because he was old and sick, not because he was empowered.

But after pressure, the village agreed to set up the new park and a small Ambedkar statue. Soon, someone allegedly broke the concrete glasses off the Ambedkar statue. Complaints were filed with the police.

Those complaints led to the current tension. And after Rajneesh and the Hindu priest got into their fight, allegations flew. The upper-caste villagers said the Dalits dragged the priest to the Ambedkar park, hung a necklace of shoes around him and beat him up. The Dalits said Rajneesh and his family members were beaten.

Now the priest has left town, and Rajneesh is hiding. The tension continues. Police officers sit and wait with the upper-caste villagers, theoretically to keep the peace.

"Everything is normal," said Shivram, the head constable of a nearby village and a Brahmin. "There are no complaints from either side."

The Dalits acknowledge that a few of them own trucks, tractors, mobile phones and television sets but they say no one eats chicken daily, let alone butter chicken, considered a fancy dish in Badhram. They say the police are ignoring any abuse.

It is telling that the police sit with the members from the higher castes, not with Dalits.

On the Dalit end of town, Bhim Singh lies in his bed, showing off purple bruises on his right elbow and left shoulder. He said he was beaten up Aug. 12 as he went to use the bathroom outside. He said he worked until he was 60 for no pay, only for what Jagan Singh would give him, food and clothes. Now, he said, he is afraid to go outside.

"It's like round-the-clock torture for all of us," he said.

10-31-2005, 08:17 AM

QUOTEwww.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=102&page=5
US dalit hearing simply scandalous
By Sandhya Jain
Successive Indian governments have failed to protest Americaâs propensity to misuse human rights issues for politically motivated calumny against nations it seeks to undermine to serve its foreign policy objectives. Shamefully, large sections of the Indian elite also betray unseemly desperation to report against the nation to US human rights committees, usually as quid pro quo for funds for their agenda-driven NGOs.

Yet, even by the standards of its normally invasive diplomacy, the US Congressâ decision to appoint a sub-committee on âIndiaâs Unfinished Agenda: Equality and Justice for 200 Million Victims of the Caste System,â is simply scandalous. Not only does it construe a gross interference in our internal affairs, it is also an attempt to influence the Indian Supreme Court hearing on reservation rights for dalit converts to religions like Christianity, which admit that they discriminate against dalit adherents!

In these circumstances, the silence of the Indian government, remote-controlled by the Roman Catholic Italy-born Sonia Gandhi, is disturbing. So is the silence of major political parties, especially those that claim a special affinity for dalits. In fact, the Indian political spectrum as a whole would do well to evolve a consensus on the issue of external interest in India, if the country is serious about being considered as a candidate for the Security Council. In this regard, it would be instructive to see how the Chinese government gives America tit-for-tat in the matter of its highly slanted human rights reports.

Actually, America has much to hide regarding its human rights record, particularly vis-Ã -vis the Native American population (what is left after the genocide by White settlers) and the former slaves imported from Africa. The shocking delay in providing relief to Katrina hurricane victims hardly needs recalling.

The silence of the Indian government, remote-controlled by the Roman Catholic Italy-born Sonia Gandhi, is disturbing. So is the silence of major political parties, especially those that claim a special affinity for dalits.

China, however, does not stomach Americaâs supercilious ways. When the US Congressional Executive Commission on China recently released its annual report, Beijing condemned it as âwanton interferenceâ in its internal affairs and presented its own report on the human rights situation in USA. The document is voluminous (the Chinese are thorough), but even a few cursory examples suffice to show how self-respecting nations protect their honour. The âHuman Rights Record of the United States in 2004,â released by Chinaâs State Council on March 3, 2005, shows the dark side of the Statue of Liberty.

China points out that American society is notorious for rampant violent crimes, and that there is little security of life and liberty in that country. It cites a report of the US Department of Justice (November 29, 2004) that in 2003, citizens aged 12 years and above experienced about 24 million victimisa-tions. Giving statistics of several cities, China said America has the largest number of gun owners and gun violence increasingly takes a toll of innocent lives. About 31,000 Americans are killed and 75,000 wounded by firearms each year, which means more than 80 people are shot dead each day. Police violence is an equally serious problem.

China has made a fascinating observation! In the past decade America spent US $ 7 billion annually to build new jails and prisons. California got one college and 21 new prisons after 1984! This is because jails are a lucrative business, with a combined staff of more than 530,000, they are the second largest employer in America after General Motors. There are over 100 private prisons in 27 states and 18 private prison companies. As a result, the value of goods and services created by inmates surged from $ 400 million in 1980 to $ 1.1 billion in 1994.

As for jail conditions, in many states inmates are routinely stripped in front of others before being moved to a new prison. Male inmates are often made to wear womenâs pink underwear as a form of humiliation. New inmates are frequently beaten and sometimes made to crawl. The conditions of women prisoners are naturally worse. Sexual harassment is common. The New York Times reported last October that at least 13 per cent of inmates are sexually assaulted in prison (October 12, 2004).

The Chinese government has made a detailed analysis of the political manipulation by the rich in the electoral process, the astronomical costs of elections, and the resultant favours to corporations as a result of election funding. Most poignant among the flaws in the US election system is the newly adopted Help America Vote Act of 2004, which requires voters to produce a series of documents such as a stable residence and thus effectively disenfranchises thousands of homeless people. America refuses to ratify the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights and is home to poverty, hunger and homelessness, in spite of being the worldâs richest country. From 1970 to 2000 (adjusted for inflation), average incomes of the bottom 90 per cent stagnated but those of the top 10 per cent experienced an increase of nearly 90 per cent (The Baltimore Sun, July 6, 2004).

Racial discrimination is of course very deeply ingrained and Black murder victims are five-times White victims; Blacks affected by AIDS are 10 times Whites (National Urban League, March 24, 2004). The number of Black people living in poverty is three-times that of the Whites. Apartheid is still rampant in schools (Schools and Lives Are Still Separate, The Washington Post, May 17, 2004).

The situation of American women and children is hardly reassuring. FBI Crime Statistics show that in 2003, there were 93,233 rape cases; virtually 63.2 in every 100,000 women are victims of assault. The number of abused women treated at First Aid Centers exceeds one million every year. More than 1,500 women in the US are killed every year by their husbands, lovers or roommates; nearly 78 per cent American women are physically victimised at least once in their lifetime. Sex crimes are on the rise in military as well. Women soldiers have been raped or sexually harassed in Iraq, Kuwait, Bahrain, Afghanistan, and other military bases.

As for children, every year nearly 400,000 children in the US are forced to engage in prostitution or other sexual dealings on the streets (The USA Today, February 27, 2004). Then, there are scandals about clergymen molesting children. Actually, the list is endless.

One strong Hindu can

10-31-2005, 11:04 PM

Conversation in a "Indian" group which wears Gandhi on it's sleeve for every issue. When it comes to Dalit's here's a very interesting conversation:

Shiva Shankar
QUOTEM.Gandhi on caste and related matters:

If the Shudras (low castes) leave their ancestral profession and take up
others, ambition will rouse in them and their peace of mind will be
spoiled. Even their family peace will be disturbed. (Hind Swaraj).

I don't believe the caste system to be an odious and vicious dogma. It has
its limitations and defects, but there is nothing sinful about it.
(Harijan, 1933).

I believe in Varnashrama (caste system) which is the law of life. The law
of Varna (color and / or caste) is nothing but the law of conservation of
energy. Why should my son not be scavenger if I am one? (Harijan,
3-6-1947).

He (Shudra, low caste) may not be called a Brahmin (uppermost caste),
though he (Shudra) may have all the qualities of a Brahmin in this birth.
And it is a good thing for him (Shudra) not to arrogate a Varna (caste) to
which he is not born. It is a sign of true humility. (Young India,
11-24-1927).

According to Hindu belief, he who practices a profession which does not
belong to him by birth, does violence to himself and becomes a degraded
being by not living up to the Varna (caste) of his birth. (Young India,
11-14-1927).

As years go by, the conviction is daily growing upon me that Varna (caste)
is the law of man's being, and therefore, caste is necessary for
Christians and Muslims as it has been necessary for Hinduism, and has been
its saving grace. (Speech at Trivandrum, (Collection of Speeches),
Ramanath Suman (1932)).

I would resist with my life the separation of "Untouchables" from the
caste Hindus. The problem of the "Untouchable" community is of
comparatively little importance. (London Round Table Conference 1931.)

I call myself a Snatana man, one who firmly believes in the caste system.
(Dharma Manthan, p 4).

I believe in caste division determined by birth and the very root of caste
division lies in birth. (Varna Vyavastha, p 76-77).

The four castes and the four stages of life are things to be attained by
birth alone. (Dharma Manthan, p 5).

Caste means the predetermination of a man's profession. Caste implies that
a man must practice only the profession of his ancestors for his
livelihood. (Varna Vyavstha, p 28, 56, 68).

Shudra only serves the higher castes as a matter of religious duty and who
will never own any property. The gods will shower down flowers on him.
(Varna Vyavastha, p 15).

I have noticed that the very basis of our thought have been severely
shaken by Western civilization which is the creation of the Satan. (Dharma
Manthan, p 65).

How is it possible that the Antyaja (outcastes) should have the right to
enter all the existing temples? As long as the law of caste and karma has
the chief place in the Hindu religion, to say that every Hindu can enter
every temple is a thing that is not possible today. (Gandhi Sikshan, Vol.
11, p 132).

There are I am sorry to say, many Hindu temples in our midst in this
country, which are no better than brothels. The caste system can't be
said to be bad because it does not allow inter-dining and inter-marriages
in different castes. (Gandhi by Shiru, p129).

The caste system, in my opinion, has a scientific basis. Reason does not
revolt against it. It has disadvantages. Caste creates a social and moral
restraint - I can find no reason for their abolition. To abolish caste is
to demolish Hinduism. There is nothing to fight against the Varnasharma
(caste system). I don't believe the caste system to be an odious and
vicious dogma. It has its limitations and defects, but there is nothing
sinful about it. (Harijan, 1933).



-------------------
Yashwant
QUOTEThese quotes would suggest that Gandhi was a life-time proponent and
practicener of untouchability and a rigid varna system.

That is not true.

Thse quotes judge Gandhi unfairly. Tha fact is that he was one of
the most important contributer to the realization that
the "untouchables" have not been justly treated in India. He
specifically worked for the untouchables. He toured all over India
for this task, including my own town in 1933.

There is a view, that only the work of an "untouchable" should be
considered to be of value towards improvements of conditions of
their community. This is unfair. Let Gandhi's work be acknowledged.

Gandhi's writings should not to be taken as his final word, and
certainly not as a scripture to his followers. He himself wrote so
in his autobiography.

I know many people, even today, who would not clean their own
toilets. Indian students who come to USA are surprized and shocked
that they are expected to clean their own toilets. Gandhi, not only
cleaned toilets himself, he made his wife do that.

One of Gandhi's son (presumably a Vaishya, although I'll have to
check that in orthodox texts) married a daughter of Rajaji, very
well known to be a Brahmin, in gross violation of the anoloma rules.
He adapted a "Harijan" girl, and raised her for some time.

Gandhi wasn't a great scholar of Hindu shastras, in fact he wasn't a
scholar. But he was an independent thinker, and by his personal
example, he altered Hinduism itself. He thus, in a sense, become a
law-giver.

Gandhi was simply wrong about the four varnas. That fact is that the
existance of four well-defined varnas today is a myth. The
communities (endogamus groups or biradaris) exist; but there is no
reasonable way to classify them into four varnas such that a
majority of the people (or scholars) would agree.

I have carefully analyzed the royal dynasties of Kashmir, since in
case of Kashmir we do have a detailed chronicle. In an overwhelming
majority of cases, the royal families were definitely not of
Kshatriya descent.

There are several ways of judging a community's varna. According to
orthodox texts, Swami Vivekananda, Dr. Rajendra Prasad (President),
Sardar Patel, Chhatrapati Shivaji, etc. were all shudras. The fact
is that the varna system has been long obsolete. Even when it may
have been applicable, there were numerous exceptions and thus the
authors of dharma-shastras were forces to classify these communities
among the varna-sanakras.

Even though Gandhi did write in support of the four varnas, the fact
is that by his actions, he demonstrated the inapplicability of the
varna system. He was a philosoper, a soldier, a merchant and a
sweeper at the same time. From what I have heard from people who
were alive in his time, his leadership was nearly universally
acknowledged by Hindus, and many non-Hindus as well.

Yashwant


---------------------------

Shiva Shankar
QUOTEGandhi was against untouchability, yes, but certainly very much for caste.
He was all for "granting untouchables" some kind of honorary Shudra
status, but that was about it.
I suggest you see the film "Badlav ke chaah" by V.Rawat where he
interviews Bhagwan Das - author of "Main Bhangi Hoon" and probably the
greatest Indian alive today. In the film Bhagwan Das clearly explains
Gandhi's point of view - he says that yes Gandhi did clean his own toilet,
and made visitors to his ashrams do so - but several times, at least twice
in speeches, urged people of the Bhangi caste to do their duty (of
cleaning toilets) lest they be born in their next lives cleaning even more
filth!
Surely Bhagwan Das is more of an "expert" on these matters than
you can ever hope to be (not having been born Bhangi, or Mehtar, Jamedar,
Valmiki, Arundattiyar, Dom ... or the many castes doomed to clean by
virtue of Hindu "dharma" dictates). However I congradulate you on the
disquiet you obviously feel about this whole evil, though I do wish you
would not play firefighter for Gandhi.
Shiva Shankar.



------------------------------

Yashwant
QUOTEYou want to take a quote by an activist and use that to judge
Gandhi. You want to judge Gandhi exclusively by using carefully
clipped quotes. What about what Gandhi did for years? Why do want to
ignore that?

Yes, I am not a Bhangi. That should not make that fact that Gandhi
worked to eradicate untouchability, irrelevanat.

Does one have to be a Dalit to do anything to impact them?

I did work as a janitor's assistant as a student in USA at one time,
incidentally. That is a job that needs to be done, and somebody
needs to do it. Late Jaiprakash Narayan did it when he was a student
in USA.

It would appear to me that many leaders, though themselves Dalit,
have not done much to help Dalits.

Hindu dharma does not dictate. Social customs and economic
conditions do. Hinduism is not based on a book, it is not even a
religion. The dharmashatras are not scriptures, they are opinions of
specific scholars.

In Hinduism, anyone may teach a new philosophy, and can become an
acharya of a new sect. Basavanna, a Brahmin, started the Lingayat
sect, that rejects brahmanical traditions including the vedas.
Ghasidas, a dalit, started the Satnami sect. Kabir, who was not
even a raised a Hindu, started Kabirpanth. Ammachi Amritanandamayi
of Kerala, a dalit, has started her own sampradaya.

Christian and Islamic texts have been used to justify slavery. That
doesn't mean that a Christian or Muslim has to accept slavery today.
Those who are opposed to slavery today, are not expected to renounce
the Bible, if they are Christian.

I would disagree with Gandhi about several things, however I think
he deserves due credit for he did.

Yashwant


----------------------------------------

Joe
QUOTELate Swami Saswatikananda, a leader of the Ezhava
community in Kerala told a few years ago that caste is
the foundation of Hinduism, the main ideology.
So he was calling himself and followeres as Sree
Narayanites, the dusciples of Sree Narayana Guru.
One is born in a lower case because of his sins in the
past life. So without many births how can one change
that?



---------------------------------------------------------

Shiva Shankar
QUOTEOn Sat, 29 Oct 2005, ymalaiya wrote:

> I did work as a janitor's assistant as a student in USA at one time,
> incidentally. That is a job that needs to be done, and somebody needs to
> do it. Late Jaiprakash Narayan did it when he was a student in USA.


Yes, we should hang our heads in shame that while it is all right to work
as a janitor in the US of A, here people doing a similar job are treated
as "untouchables". Moreover it is a job reserved for some by birth!
And it explains why you never will or why Mr.Narayan never had
contemplated doing this job "that needs to be done" here in India.


> Hindu dharma does not dictate. Social customs and economic conditions
> do. Hinduism is not based on a book, it is not even a religion. The
> dharmashatras are not scriptures, they are opinions of specific
> scholars.


So what if Hinduism is not based on A book? You say it as if it is some
kind of virtue. Give me Buddhism any day, based on the Dhammapada, and
which does dictate that all people are equal and should be treated as
such. Give me the Dhammapada any day which does dictate that there are no
virtues (nor its lack) that are inherited by birth.


> In Hinduism, anyone may teach a new philosophy, and can become an
> acharya of a new sect. Basavanna, a Brahmin, started the Lingayat
> sect, that rejects brahmanical traditions including the vedas.
> Ghasidas, a dalit, started the Satnami sect. Kabir, who was not
> even a raised a Hindu, started Kabirpanth. Ammachi Amritanandamayi
> of Kerala, a dalit, has started her own sampradaya.


So what explains the assault on Dalits by caste hindus? What explains the
gradation based on birth? (And Amritanandamayi is not Dalit.)


> Christian and Islamic texts have been used to justify slavery. That
> doesn't mean that a Christian or Muslim has to accept slavery today.
> Those who are opposed to slavery today, are not expected to renounce the
> Bible, if they are Christian.


You ought to be more bothered about your religion, viz. Hinduism. Starting
with the Rig Veda (where the brahmin is born from the mouth of Brahma, and
the Shudra from the feet) all hindu texts, Gita etc. are obsessed with
"duty", i.e. caste duty.


> I would disagree with Gandhi about several things, however I think he
> deserves due credit for he did.


There were four vows every Congress man and woman had to take to belong to
the party - wear khadi, spin the wheel every day etc. When Ambedkar
suggested to Gandhi that congress people should also be asked to take the
vow that they will not practice untouchability, Gandhi refused!
Yes let us give Gandhi the credit he deserves, but battling caste
is certainly not what he did.
Shiva Shankar.

10-31-2005, 11:21 PM

More from the self appointed 'Gandhians':

Amarjit Singh
QUOTEDear List Members

My understanding is as follows:

One may recall Sarojini Naiduâs words that it took a great deal of money to keep Mr Gandhi in the poverty that he was accustomed to. In the age of nationalist struggle Gandhi/Nehru alliance served the interests of rulers who financed him. After all whoever pays the piper calls the tune.
Gandhi did not want to demolish the varna system which is another name for the caste system â as Ambedkar noted.
Gandhi thought that Ambedkar was a Brahmin boy who was intemperate in his words. It never occurred to him that a Dalit could have the courage to challenge him.
Gandhi opposed Ambedkar when he put a counter claim stating that he represented Dalits when clearly this was not the case. This made Punjabi Dalit leader Mangoo Ram to make a threat to take a fast unto death.
The only time Gandhi took a fast unto death in connection with the Dalits was when he opposed Ambedkar and blackmailed the latter into Poona Pact.
Gandhiâs Ram Rajaya seemed liked continuation of feudalism to Dalits.
Gandhiâs Theory of the Trusteeship (high castes to hold property in name of everyone â to each according to his needs â the higher castes have higher needs etc. ) seemed like perpetual dependency on high castes i.e. no change in status quo from the last 3000 years. Dalits still look back on Poona Pact and think it as the Theory of Trusteeship in practice.
Gandhi never made a pre-condition of opposing untouchability for his followers.
Dalits find the very word Harijan patronising and insulting.
Every high caste noise made against untouchability and the caste system was in response to the actions undertaken by the untouchables themselves. Why did not the high castes react in this manner 500 years previously, 100 years previously or 20 years previously?
The only way any reformist person/ movement in India can be judged is by the very people whom it was allegedly trying to liberate. In this regard Dalits have already given their historical verdict.
Space does not permit me for a detailed reply, but Ambedkarâs What Gandhi and Congress Have Done to the Untouchables would make a salutary reading for anyone who still thinks that Gandhi did anything positive for Dalits.



Devadas cherukuri
QUOTEAmarjit and Bro.Shiva, thank you for your reply to MR.Gandhi lover, any Gandhi lover is a Varnashrama dharma lover, who doesn't feel ashamed to ill treat his fellow human beings as equals, he must be an animal if one doesn't know how to respect his fellow human being equally

Joseph G
QUOTEGandhi might not have done enough. But what he did at
that time, was really revolutionary. because he opened
the path, the harijans or dalits could go further
later to fight for their equality.
I feel that Gandhi could do only that much at that
time. If he stood for the dalits, he would have
alienated the higher castes and thus ending the
independence struggle.
we have to look at things in histrocal perspective.
Joseph g

11-07-2005, 10:22 AM

QUOTEhttp://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1285155.cms
LEADER ARTICLE: Stick To Your Ground
Sri Sri Ravi Shankar
In the village adjacent to the Art of Living ashram, a garbage truck dumps the waste of Bangalore city on the roadside. When the village youth realised this was a major health hazard, they decided to stop this. When the garbage truck came they punctured its tyres, instead of sending it away.

The garbage had to be dumped on the roadside in order for the tyres to be repaired. The purpose of the protest was to chase the truck away, but it ended up achieving quite the contrary. Often, our actions do not bring the desired goal. Instead of taking us towards the goal they take us away from it.

The actions of leaders such as Kancha Illiah have done more harm than good to the cause of Dalit upliftment. It's unfortunate for India that they have taken the issue to the US Congress. In the name of Dalit upliftment, they are pursuing their own personal agenda and damaging the image of the country.

If they are really interested in the betterment of the Dalits, they should work in the villages, instead of going to the US Congress. The only solution to the problem of caste discrimination is to educate people and make them realise that caste by birth is not sanctioned by religion.

This can happen only through grass-roots social reforms, not through foreign inter-ventions. History abounds in instances of reformist movements to address the caste menace in society.

Several saints such as Basavanna from Karnataka, Narayana Guru from Kerala and Swami Dayanand Saraswati of the Arya Samaj are shining examples of people who fought caste. Instead of highlighting such reforms, these people are maligning Hinduism for personal gain.

Rather than converting people to other faiths and running away from Hinduism, the most potent action would be to create Dalit purohits. Brahminism as understood some decades ago doesn't exist anymore. Today, there are innumerable instances of Brahmins serving under Dalit bosses.

No doubt, there are instances of atrocities, but these are not confined to the Dalit community alone. Often the members of upper castes have also been victims of social conflict. There are several instances of sadhus being attacked.

For instance, last year in Uttar Pradesh alone, 20 sadhus were brutally murdered. When the human consciousness is loaded with tension and mistrust, violence can erupt under any pretext. In the absence of ethics and morality, there are atrocities against women and children. Similarly, oppression of the poor is a global problem, not confined just to the Dalit community. It's not just Dalits who are poor; poverty exists among people of all castes. Caste discrimination is a social problem and needs to be addressed through social reforms.

Politicising the issue and presenting a distorted picture of social atrocities to the world community is not going to solve the problem. It will only weaken national resolve to tackle the social menace.

There are thousands of committed soldiers of justice and equality, from among upper castes and NGOs, who are working for the betterment of Dalits. Indian Parliament and state assemblies have a large representation of Dalits. By taking the matter to the US Congress, these so-called community leaders are denigrating Dalit lawmakers.

Udit Raj and Kancha will do well to learn a few things from the US. They have to learn about national pride and progressive attitude from the Americans. There are three million homeless beggars in America, a little over 1% of the
population.

But the American media never publicises it. No blacks, native Indians and minorities have ever asked another country to interfere in their internal matters. Caste discrimination can be solved only through reforms and educating people in human values, not by creating hatred between communities.

For sure, a Hindu hater can never bring about the needed reform in the Hindu society. Hatred will only polarise the society and create civil wars. Without the whole-hearted participation of upper caste people, Dalit empowerment will remain a dream.

The younger generation of upper castes cannot be held respon-sible for the discrimination practised by people of previous generations. If a section of society starts hating the upper castes and blaming them, how can they participate in the empowerment of the Dalits?

It is time to change the strategy. Sixty years ago during Ambedkar's time, when people were not open to change, a revolt was essential. But today, a reform is necessary as a revolt will not work. In the process of reform, people from all castes and communities have to be involved.

A reform is a social phenomenon where people from all caste and communities will have to be motivated to join. Reform can't happen out of anger or hatred; we need a sane mind and a loving approach.

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