<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1) In ancient vedic times such transformations, usually involving marriage relationships with famous brahmin family resulted in kshatriyas becoming brAhmaNas: maudgalya (descendents of king bhR^imyAshva), shaDmarShaNas (descendents of great ikshvAku king trasadasyu), vAdhulas (descendents of king vItayhavya, the haihaya yadu) etc became brahmins.
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Does this mean that the current Maudgalya, Vatula and Shadamarshanas were actually kshatriyas ? So the pravarams under these gotras come in after these kshtriyas transformed into brahmins ?
<!--QuoteBegin-chandramoulee+Jul 25 2004, 06:34 PM-->QUOTE(chandramoulee @ Jul 25 2004, 06:34 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> In all Tamil Brahmin weddings a charade of the Bridegroom being intercepted on his way to Benares for further studies is being enacted. I have seen similar things in Tamil speaking Iyengars of Karnataka also. Is this practice prevalent throughout this country? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, you are talking about Kasi Yatra that's symbolic of an incident that could have happened centuries ago, where a bride groom overcome by vairagya (or quest of knowledge) leaves for Kasi, but was intercepted by the father-in-law-to-be and cajoled into accepting his daughter in marriage. Like most other part of the wedding ceremony, this too is just a ritual that's symbolic. Other such rituals include "Nelangu" - something that embarasses the 28 year old groom or the 25 year old bride now-a-days.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->To my knowledge only gotra pravaras of three generations are being called out during Tamil Brahmin marriages nowadays. Were they reciting SEVEN generations of gotra-pravaras in days of yore?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a Sankritya, I callout three rishi names (Trayarishih) while people of Srivatsa gotra will call out Pancha-rishih (Five rishis). Do you mean this type of gotra pravaram or do you mean reading out the name of the groom's immediate parents, grand-parents and greatgrandparents?
HH garu, I have a question for you.... While in a discussion last nite, a group of people were comparing Gotra/Pravarams, and one Nair family had asked what their gotra was. I know of Brahmanas having Gotra from Rishis, and Kshatriyas go by Parampara or Kulam (Varshneya, RaguVamsham etc.) How do itharaah (others) trace back their lineage?
Sunderji, thanks.
Indeed I was referring to kasi yatra.
What I wanted to know was whether this practice is prevalent in all marriage ceremonies where the bride is given as a dAn-- throughout our country.
Also how I can access the bharatvarsha site. I keep getting a 'forbidden' notice every time I try to log in!
I am a bhAratvAja myself but I was referring to the kind of banns they are announcing just before the main function starts--loudly proclaiming the gotra-pravaras of both the bride and the groom. I have heard this being recited up to three generations only. I wanted to know whether it was being recalled up to seven generations.
Thanks for your response.
Chandramoulee
<!--QuoteBegin-Sunder+Oct 20 2004, 10:44 AM-->QUOTE(Sunder @ Oct 20 2004, 10:44 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> How do itharaah (others) trace back their lineage? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rule 1: If you are performing a shrauta ritual then you shall name the purohita's gotra for the pravara recitiation if you do not have one of your own. This rule typically applies to kShatriyas and vaishyas. The brahmin must known his pravara to be considered valid barring exceptional cases.
Rule 2: Many of the non-dvijas have their own peculiar gotras that have no relationships with the dvija gotras. They observe the same exogamous rules with respect to their gotras as the dvijas. These peculiar gotras of theirs are not used in vedic shrauta rituals but may be used for laukIka religious practices.
While it is common belief that all non-dvijas are excluded from vedic rites this is not really so, because the iShukR^it and the niShada sthapati were some allowed non-dvijas. Of course there are numerous honorary kShatriya classes.
BTW the Bharatavarsha site will probably be discontinued by us. My friends (and me) who were maintaining it are hard pressed for time and we were unable to updated as originally planned. So we decided to stop the project for now. Though we may bring it back with a different cheaper hosting scheme.
In marriages the ancestors are announced for 7 generation if remembered.
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Does this mean that the current Maudgalya, Vatula and Shadamarshanas were actually kshatriyas ? So the pravarams under these gotras come in after these kshtriyas transformed into brahmins ?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b>Daffodil change your usr id to meet the forum rules.</b>
Yes the above have kShatriya male line ancestors. But they are called kevala bhArgava or kevala A~ngirasa gotras as all of them were absorbed via marriage into the bhArgava and A~ngirasa traditions. They are listed in the pravara khaNDas in the kevala categories,
Amarnath, I am not familiar with the origins of the gotra names amongst the kammas. There has been much debate about the origins of the Kammas, but all we can say is that the version in Tamil Nad originally came from Andra. May be you could collect the Kamma gotras and study their distributions- this may offer useful date. There is a genealogy claiming that Kamma-like castes are related the Kayastas. However, this link is again not well supported.
11-10-2004, 04:16 AM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2004, 04:16 AM by Sunder.)
The Chenchus are a broad exogamous group that is sub-divided into various clans. <b>They follow the ancient system in Hindu tradition of gotras,</b> which represents the lineage and descent of clan members. <b>There are 26 gotras found among the Chenchus and the various clans are identified by their gotra name.</b> They never marry within the gotra or clan and intermarry other clan members. The wife bears the husbandâs gotra after marriage.
I never would have imagined that there is Gotra pravara amongst the tribal population of one of the most ancient tribes of India.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I remember that there were some ppl in Srirangam became Brahmanas by saying "Om Namo Bhagavathe Vasudevaya". I am not sure if they had a gotra assigned en masse.
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There is absolutely no truth in this myth. Other related myths that have been floating around is that - (a) Ramanuja converted number of itaras into brahmin fold (b) Thenkalais were those converts.
There is no truth in either of the claim. Some uninformed vadakalais use (b) against thenkalis in their polemics, but learned vadakalais wouldn't like the notion of (a) as it would entail Ramanuja tampering with dharma shastras, which he never did. Moreover, the vadakalai/thenkalai distinction didn't exist during Ramanuja times but crystallized few centuries later.
Having said this, I am aware of a section of people in a village called Kovilam, who being actually vahnians took up thread en masse and entered thenkalai fold. (Referred to in Diwan Bahadur Rangachari's Sri Vaishnava brahmans). The usual practice is the castes entering sri vaishnava fold retain their caste identity.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1.Ankiras---) Shatamarshana(Penance in the middle of Five fires at Haridhwar and
got the boon that the Sata Vayu will not affect him . Similar to the case of Satakopan(Nammalwar later).His predecessors, Purukutsar and Traasa Dasyu were authorities on Rig Vedam.Tras is made up of 3 Kinds of fear .Since these htree kinds of fear ran away fro him out of fear for his Power derived from penance, He is called Trasa Dhasyu. All the three Rishis (Ankiras, Purukutsar,Trsadasyu) are thus included in the Pravaram of Shatamarshana Gothris.
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The above information is a joke, to put it mildly. Purukutsa and Trasadasyu were kshatriyas (most probably Ikshvakus). Trasadasyu actually means "he who makes the dasyus shake with fear". There is no relation between ShaDmarshanas (ShaTamarshanas ?!) and shaTakopa. Probably the SVs engaged in folk etymology by corrupting "shaDmarshana" to "shaTamarshana" to see a link to shaTakopa or nammazhvar.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I never would have imagined that there is Gotra pravara amongst the tribal population of one of the most ancient tribes of India.
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It is unfortunate for the article to use the term "gotra". Adding pravara to the above is even more unfortunate! Clan exogamy, (which the dwijas follow using the gotra system) is a pan human practice. (I am lazy to pick up my anthropology book to list the tribes across the globe that follow this). In a nutshell, various endogamous tribes are divided into clans with their own totems and these clans follow exogamy. Usually the woman enters the clan of her husband after marriage.
So, the chenchus may as well be following clan exogamy -- but this in itself doesn't warrant a connection to "atri brhgu kutsa vasishTa gautama Agnirasa..." list. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Is anyone aware of Karandikar's "Hindu exogamy"? He seems to imply that the gotra names actually implies totemism (Kashyapa - tortoise, Bharadwaja - Sky lark, Vatsa - Calf etc.). So, in ancient days, anyone can enter a rishi's gotra. Karandikar cites a line in shatapatha brAhmaNa "He chooses the pravaras connected to the rishis..." --> implying the sacrificer had full liberty to choose the pravara rishis and hence he could choose any gotra he wanted <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rolleyes.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The historian K A N Shastri seems to agree with Karandikar in "Dravidans and Aryans - cultural contacts" that the "vedic" gotra exogamy was modelled after indigenous prototypes (as Iranians and Indo-Europeans didn't seem to have a gotra system), but sapinda exogamy is not.
My personal view is that, since the clan exogamy is found in most of the tribes across the globe (probably this is a convergent evolution), the vedic people may have converged to this system without external cultural contact.
I heared people saying that Anybody(may or may not be a rishi) who lives to see Seven generations (Male?) can span off his own Gothra (meaning, Their generation will have a new Gothra by that man's name and older name will be discontinued)
Is that TRUE? Is this the reason why we have so many gothra?
From what I have understood Gotra is required only when performing religious rituals, hence I learnt my Gotra is Paulashya (is there anything more to it).
I am a Kshtriya/Rajput, I guess this is the Varna.
What is the relevance of Gotra in Practical life?
I tried to fill in the Gotra Online survey, ends up in an error on submission
andariki namaskaram,
it is very interesting for the topic is touching the roots.There are ten brahmin catageries in India.
Panca goudas> goudiya(bengal),kaanya kubja(U.P & Haryana & Punjab & Rajasthan)maithila(Bihar),saraswata (M.P & North Maharashtra) and Kasmeera
Panca dravidas>dravida (TN & Kerala),karnataka,andhra,maharashtra and ghoorjara (Gujarat)
But these are speak about origins. Brahmins had been highly mobile from 4th century.So more indicaters are needed to find about the roots.Gotras and Sutras and Veda sakhas ,Nadus may help.
I am interested where my actual counsins are,with what outfits(sic)
My gotram is Maitreyasa and ekarsiya gotram.Vardhasva is the gotra karta.
thanking you sirs.
08-31-2006, 07:47 PM (This post was last modified: 08-31-2006, 07:50 PM by Bodhi.)
In above post of Aarya, there are multiple entries for Sage Sandilya.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->8. Sandilya from Kausika and Gautama,
38. Sandilya from Kaisorya Kapya,
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1. What is the difference? Are there two different sages with same name, or there is some other reason?
2. My gotra is Sandilya and would like to know if there is a way to find which of the above Sandilya would be mine?
3. Within Sandilya gotra, I have seen intermarriages based upon certain sub-classification. Does anyone know about how, why?
4. Sandilya Bhakti Sutram - of the famed "athAto bhakti jigyAsA" - is that a smriti/shruti? Which of the above Shandilya Rishis is this from? What could be the approximate time line of its origination?
5. Should one be right in being proud on one's gotra? I feel proud on coming from the lineage which developed Bhaki-sutras :-)
6. Are gotras somehow cross-metrixed with varnas. e.g. same gotra can be/can not be shared by different varnas?
By the way here is one URL for accessing Sandilya Bhakti Sutra: Sutra
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->2. My gotra is Sandilya and would like to know if there is a way to find which of the above Sandilya would be mine?
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Do you know what your Pravara Rshis are?
They will help a lot in debugging the problem.
<!--QuoteBegin-mitradena+Aug 31 2006, 04:28 PM-->QUOTE(mitradena @ Aug 31 2006, 04:28 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you know what your Pravara Rshis are?
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No. Will try to find.
Mine is tricky because it is listed under both Vasishtha and Angiras clans.
The "Gotra Pravara Manjari" book lists it as a special case.
Thanks to one of my relatives I finally managed to determine that it is part of the Vasistha clan.
We need make sure this kind of information does not become extinct due to carelessness or sheer apathy.
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Actually, Mitradena, there is no conflict. Angirasas were also ancestors of the Parâshara Shâktyas, meaning that the Shâktyas accepted Angiras as an ancestor too. See Rgveda I.71.2 Pada AB a Sûkta of a Parâshara Shâktya saying:
(pitáro naH) Our forefathers, (ángirasaH) the Angirasas, (ukthaÃH) through their praise songs (rujan) have shattered (ádriM) the mountain-shaped clouds (ráveNa) by the sound, (viiLú cid drLhaá) even the firm stronghold;
Some other Angirasas, like the KrNvas (Paippalâda spelling) = KaNvas are also counted as a VasiShTha Pravara.
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