Pathma, some men are blessed with clairvoyance and the ability to see into the future. Since i am not one of them i am content to judge the issue based on what we already know for sure and what has transpired.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I have widely differing views though, which properly explained, you will agree has merit.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am sorry Pathma, try as i might, i do not see any merit in the scenario you have painted. While you take pleasure in the destruction of the dasnami order, for me it is a source of great concern. However, wishful thinking does not a reality make. Never having lived in India for any appreciable length of time you have a somewhat distorted view of the Indian polity
I credit Adi Sankara for singly reviving a tradition that was either fast slipping into ritual for its own sake or was getting lost in the sunyavadi doctrines of the brilliant Brahmana Dharmakirti. I am not sorry that Buddhism lost that ideological struggle despite the valiant effort by Dharmakirti for almost certainly it can be said that Buddhism was ill equiped to handle the onslaught of islam in the subcontinent.
Nobody is above the law but just because you are a Brahmana does not mean you should be held to a different and higher legal standard or that you should be held without bail.
These are indeed tough and humiliating times for us Pathma, but do not be so eager to write our obituary for we are a tough bunch we Smarthas. We may revel in our individuality but we are also disciplined enough to know what part of our tradition we should keep and what we should discard. Let me just say that we have survived worse and we will prevail in the end.
Let me add that you have a basic confusion with the doctrine of Karma.
Karma is not only about karma-phala, it also goes along with free will. At any moment one is able to make a free choice to act for the good or for the bad.
It may be Acharya's karma to recieve the troubles he finds himself in. But TN official machinary and Dravianist politicos have their free will, and by their free will they have chosen to act on the side of wrong by making a joke of the justice system. That creates their own karma.
We have a free will at the moment to choose to act against the wrongdoers or sit on our 'support base' shaking our heads saying 'oh this is Acharya's karma, what do I have to do with it'. If we ignore to act on this travesty of justice, then we are by our own will choosing to ignore the correct path. That is our choice and will have its assciated karma.
I make my choice to support the Acharya against this travesty of justice system. And my choices determine my karma. It is independent of whether what Acharya is going through, is his karma or not.
Has anyone considered that its not only religious forces(xtian etc.) that are in play here but also globalization forces? In order to globalize the Hindus the Brahmins have to be taken out of the system. For example the Greeks with out Homer's works, or the France or Germany without their language or the Japanese or Chinese without their immortal Emperor are all nothing and can be globalized without resistance.
So it is very important to understand that even if the Acharya is condemned it should not and will not effect greater Hinduism.
Careful ramana, Pathma has already dismissed that as the fanciful droolings of 'conspiracy believers and that by the very act of enunciating a conspiracy we are alienating ourselves from the mainstream
It seems, slowly but surly the battle lines are being drawn for the Soul of Mother India. There might be a clear picture of enemies( who remain hidden) and struggle in 4-5 years. Right now , the first shot is for testing in this battle of wit and patience , it require thoughtful response and it has been.
We should wait , watch and observe, some good might come out of the whole issue. In the meantime we ought to strengthen the forces of action to counter the sinister agenda.
Lest I be branded a north Indian Brhamin supremacist too, let me just declare that my spiritual guru is a south Indian woman saint from Kerala who was born in a fisherman's family.
So much for caste and spirituality.
All along India's history we have had spiritual gurus and leaders from all castes. Once a person takes sanyaysa his/her previous caste doesn't matter.
In north India, Kabirdasa, ravidasa and many such saints are revered and their songs sung by all even though they were not from upper castes.
This is the strength of our Hindu tradition. That once a person is recognized as being of higher spiritual level, his/her caste doesn't matter.
We do need to break down the caste barriers and discrimination on all the levels. And India is perhaps the only country in the world to have such wide ranging affirmative action plans.
But if some people want to use this to engage in reverse discrimination, then that will not be acceptable.
Pathma gave the justification of karma of the Acharya to let him suffer. Just to follow it further and to show how hollow this line of reasoning is, consider this. When Brahmins were discriminating against the lower castes, was it the karma of the lower castes to be discriminated against? When Hitler was slaughtering the Jews, was it the karma of Jews to be slaughtered? Perhaps. But how the devil does it follow from here that one should not fight against such injustices? If this were the case, any kind of injustice can be justified. This is not how I understand the doctrine of karma or what Krishna taught in the Gita.
People need not assume what other Hindus think. All that most people are saying is that there should be a fair process of accessing guilt and not one that pre-supposses crime of the damned AchArya. As Kaushal puts it, it appears that Pathma and S_G have this divya dR^iShTi by which they know everything about the doings of the AchArya. It may be so, but you have hardly convinced any of us in this regard.
Pathma, need not protest his innocence here. We have seen enough of his posts on this and other forums to reach a fairly clear picture of attitudes. Before shooting off you may want to check some facts such as: Who are smArta and what are their ways?
Indeed there is a study area termed (IIRC) <i>Subaltern Cosmopolitanism</i> and it is about colonized people and transnational capitalist class (the new global ruling class)..
<!--QuoteBegin-Ashok Kumar+Dec 15 2004, 03:30 AM-->QUOTE(Ashok Kumar @ Dec 15 2004, 03:30 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Pathma gave the justification of karma of the Acharya to let him suffer.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pathma is incorrect in his understanding of Karma: it is "action" not fate!
Sri Krishna would never ask one to stand in inaction and accept his vidhi, instead he would extoll one to do his karma, action, according to dharma - without anticipating any returns.
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We humans are gifted with the priceless gift of free will and it is upto us to use it. As a result most events in our life are not preordained by fate or the stars. We make them happen as a result of OUR actions.
There were several sub issues in my post but the gist of it was there is a probability of two impending events taking place: a friction between JS and VS, and the disclosure of the police confession tapes. These would harm the general Hindu populace as well as importantly, the resident monks. My suggestion was to close the mutt, send the monks to Sringeri and avoid the impact on all Hindus.
This issue was not addressed. The expectant response would be that the mutt should stay, with reasons given, and this is all a nightmare that will soon pass.
Kaushal,
I do not take pleasure in the destruction of the dasanami orders or anyone. I am not even advocating that. If there is something wrong I will point it out. But this is not the issue here.
I have nothing but high regards for Adi Shankara who influenced Hindu philosopy in a big way. I cannot say the same for his sucessors, but I could be wrong and need to be corrected. I do have differerent views on the battle with buddhists and Jains, but that is not the issue here again.
JS is innocent and the courts will decide if otherwise; bail will also be decided by the courts. We have to live with it.
Smarthas will evolve and metamorphosize once again Kaushal, but it will be nothing like the old orthodoxy. When I meant the smarthas in earlier posts I meant the orthodox mutts, orders, vedapadasalas and some part of the priesthood too that are resistant to reforms. Not the general masses of smarthas, probably 80% who are in non priesthood vocations, and certainly not you who do not subscribe to caste views. So many others are dedicated to reform and I hold them in regard. I regret the reservations policy, and I am all for its abolition.
Kaushal, the advaita vedanta philosophy will be challenged in the coming decade. I think its about time to bring out these issues to the forefront. These recent events could not have occured if their was not some flaw in the foundation philosophy and practices. Let us not blame JS alone. I think he is the fall guy. But again this is not the issue here.
Ashok,
The arrest of the seer is his karma, his acquittal or conviction would also be is, but he could use his free will to change these karmas. Put up a stiff legal fight. Confession and repentence is another way. If you have reservations against the judiciary system, change the govts.
Ashok and Pulikeshi,
I did not give the justification of karma of the Acharya to let him suffer, bail presumably that is. Its a court matter to be challenged - use of free will.
Ramana,
Reformist Hindus like to take out the brahmana (caste) from the Hindu equation. But they do want to maintain the priesthood, an egalitarian priesthood that is.
HH,
Okay, I wont protest. I am okay with your attitudes. But, sigh! Do you have anything to say about the closure of the kanchi mutt. Smartha history and practices is not the issue here. Would be wonderful if a new thread is started on this. I will learn a lot and contribute little. And thank you for visiting Navyashastra.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->There were several sub issues in my post but the gist of it was there is a probability of two impending events taking place: a friction between JS and VS, and the disclosure of the police confession tapes. These would harm the general Hindu populace as well as importantly, the resident monks. My suggestion was to close the mutt, send the monks to Sringeri and avoid the impact on all Hindus.
This issue was not addressed. The expectant response would be that the mutt should stay, with reasons given, and this is all a nightmare that will soon pass.
Kaushal,
I do not take pleasure in the destruction of the dasanami orders or anyone. I am not even advocating that. If there is something wrong I will point it out. But this is not the issue here.
I have nothing but high regards for Adi Shankara who influenced Hindu philosopy in a big way. I cannot say the same for his sucessors, but I could be wrong and need to be corrected. I do have differerent views on the battle with buddhists and Jains, but that is not the issue here again.
JS is innocent and the courts will decide if otherwise; bail will also be decided by the courts. We have to live with it.
Smarthas will evolve and metamorphosize once again Kaushal, but it will be nothing like the old orthodoxy. When I meant the smarthas in earlier posts I meant the orthodox mutts, orders, vedapadasalas and some part of the priesthood too that are resistant to reforms. Not the general masses of smarthas, probably 80% who are in non priesthood vocations, and certainly not you who do not subscribe to caste views. So many others are dedicated to reform and I hold them in regard. I regret the reservations policy, and I am all for its abolition.
Kaushal, the advaita vedanta philosophy will be challenged in the coming decade. I think its about time to bring out these issues to the forefront. These recent events could not have occured if their was not some flaw in the foundation philosophy and practices. Let us not blame JS alone. I think he is the fall guy. But again this is not the issue here.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pathma, As always you raise many interesting points, with many of which i disagree.
i cant address them all now but apropos the monks in Kanchi moving to Sringeri that is out as an option. Each matha has developed a personality of its own. The Kanchi matha is a very activist matha with lots of outreach programs whereas the Sringeri matha ( my own family have been associated with this matha for a few generations so i do have a particular viewpoint when it comes to this matha) is very sedate and restricts itself to the knitting (vedpatashlas, vedic learning, setting the gold standard for others priests to follow)) but shies away from the political activism of the Kanchi matha which is a trailblazer in this regard. I am certain there is a certain amount of rivalry between the 2 mathas, but i really doubt whether the monks in Kanchi would fit in with the austere life style of Sringeri, but i may be wrong,
Apropos, vedanta, you dont say why you feel there must be a flaw (except for the arrest of the seer). But vedanta can hardly judged by the acts and omissions of one person. Note ,i make no prejudgement of the guilt or innocence of the acharya, but that is not the main issue here in this discussion between you and me. I will say i have seen nothing yet to convince me that he is even remotely guilty, much less deserving of being locked up in a small cell without bail That is like judging the vatican based on the actions of the Borgias who were notorious for the scale and licentiousness of their living. I would like to have 3 good reasons why vedanta will not survive based on the teachings. Incidentally if you are associating Vedanta with Adi Sankara as the initiator of the darsana, you are of course wrong. Vedanta predates Buddhism by several millenia. Even Badarayana the chronicler of the Mahabharata and the author of the Brahmasutras is not the person who first propounded this darshana. As Christopher isherwood says it is a perennial darsana and owes its origin to no single human.
Apropos there being no worthy followers of Adi Sankara you are of course wrong in my view. Sayana or vidyaranya (author numerous commentaries on the Veda and his own original works like Jeevanmukti viveka) the founder of the vijayanagar empire in the sixteenth century wrote extensively on vedanta and was almost as prolific as Adi Sankara and much more active politically as is the case with the Kanchi matha.
As an aside and not as an accolade you might wish to note that MaxMueller based his sacred books of the east primarily on the commentaries of Sayana. I would be happy to have an in depth discussion of the works of Sayana and others if you so desire. There are other among the recent heads of the Sringeri matha (Dialogs with the Guru)whoare equally proficient and well versed but have shunned the publicity of other organizations like the Ramakrishna mission
I regard this( the relevance of Vedanta today) as a major difference in viewpoint and it cannot be glossed away
Vedanta including advaita has been around since vedic times and primarily expounded in the Upanishads. And agreeing with Kaushal, I also believe that rumors of its demise are highly premature.
Besides Shri Adi Shankara's revival of advaita Vedanta, other notable development regarding advaita took place in Kashmir in shaiva Agama. Kashmir shaivism has a highly developed system of philosophy with strong advaitic foundation. Shri Shankara had traveled to Kashmir and there is an ancient Shankarachrya temple on a hill close to Srinagar.
What I have gathered from Pathma in the past is that he tends to see everything from Agamic point of view, especially of Tamil sangam era. Nothing wrong with that, but it becomes an exercise in parochialism if one feels a need to show every other tradition in Hinduism as subsequent and derived from or inferior to one's preferred sect/tradition etc.
Such parochial views have existed in Hinduism amongst all the major sects. But those parochial views define those sects, not Hinduism. Core unique value of Hinduism is its universalist approach.
At present my understanding of advaita is limited to that derived from Upanishads, Shankaracharya's advaita and Kashmir Shaiva Agama. I am personally not very familiar with Tamil sangam literature and would appreciate pointers to its philosophical texts translated into english, especially those relating to advaita.
Good posts about the parochial nature of different hindu sects and their claim to be the mainstream hindu thought and the rest being deviations. But is their claims new at all ? (on a different note, did the word Hindu exists at all during those times?)
If you havent looked at Pathamji's website (I have posted it before), i am posting the link again. Not sure whether his leaning is completely in sync with Tamil Shaivism. His views may find some common grounds with the absence/lack of stress on varna/jati in tamil shaivism (though i am not sure), but Tamil saivism has a lot of puranas which directly diverges from Pathmaji's views on puranas and upavedas. It also played a great role in defeating Buddhism and Jainism in Southern India. Hauma or Sunder ji can throw more light on Tamil Saivism.
Or you may get a better inference from his site and the forum.
Pathma's website
(for me, this looks like vedanta with the shaivite prism. Please correct me)
Ideally Pathmaji should be answering your questions, but i tried to pinch in so that i can understand where he is coming from . Apologies if my attempt has added to the confusion and sorry for the thread diversion.
Too bad for the kanchi resident monks. They sacrificed their lives for the ultimate lifestyle and are now the real victims. When the father goes, the whole family suffers.
Everyone asks, 'where is the evidence against JS'? Its true we know of none, except police briefings, leakings and investigative journalism. But the point is, evidence will be provided in court when the trial opens. So we wait and remain neutral till then.
Regarding vedanta, I said 'the advaita vedanta philosophy will be challenged in the coming decade'. Vedanta itself, meaning vedic truths, upanishadic truths encapsulated in the Brahma Sutras itself will survive, still be relevant, nay, florish. Never said anything about its demise. But between what was meant in the vedanta and what was later constructed as philosophical models - advaita, dvaita, etc - this is what will be challenged.
But this is too large a topic and we could take it up separately at a much later date. I just mentioned this in passing simply to let you know of my thinking of the larger implications and more impending changes that may take place. Events are never singular and isolated, its always a sequence of them. I mentioned this also because advaita vedanta (mayavada) is connected with the smartha sampradaya and not many others.
Regarding Sayana, I am aware that it is standard reference book on vedic learning, and also aware that many disagree with his interpretation. Some schools have completely done away with his commentaries. Be that as it may, he enriched our culture. I asked about the successors of Adi Shankara is because one judges a tree by its fruits.
Ashok, agamic and vedic is the same thinking, universal, and not parochial. Except for the Arya Samaj almost all of Hinduism is agamic. With my initial posts on the oneness of mankind which resonates with the egalitarian vedic values, I thought I was the only universalist here. Ashok, I think you are misreading me often. Anything discussed is not a put down. But you can already see that there are wider views and nothing is sacrosanct.
Thanks again for pointing to the links Sridhar. You are right. It is vedanta. It is siddhanta.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Regarding Sayana, I am aware that it is standard reference book on vedic learning, and also aware that many disagree with his interpretation. Some schools have completely done away with his commentaries. Be that as it may, he enriched our culture. I asked about the successors of Adi Shankara is because one judges a tree by its fruits.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sayana is one of the successors of Adi S. After serving as the Pradhan Mantri for the Raya Brothers of Vijayanagar and acting as their preceptor and guide he went on to become the Acharya of the Sringeri matha
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Never said anything about its demise. But between what was meant in the vedanta and what was later constructed as philosophical models - advaita, dvaita, etc - this is what will be challenged.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The MANDUKYA Upanishad which is kind of a grand daddy to the rest of the Upanishads is considered to be the quintessential exposition of Advaita Vedanta. Again the Mandukya is by no stretch of the imagination a later text. My view of Advaita , Dwaita and the rest is that whether a particular darsana appeals to an individual depending on their stage in life, the particular mix of gunas(satvic, rajasik and Tamasik) in the individual. In fact the same person could subscribe to all three darsanas depending on their stage in life.
While i remain a staunch Advaitin, itis unlikely that there are many individuals especially in the academic and priestly world who are wedded to one particular darsana, but may pick and choose cafetaria style from various darsanas. the concept of a Jealous god enforcing single minded worship among his disciples is alien to the HIndu tradition which never enjoins its adherents to abandon their existing faiths
<!--QuoteBegin-Kaushal+Dec 17 2004, 09:24 PM-->QUOTE(Kaushal @ Dec 17 2004, 09:24 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> My view of Advaita , Dwaita and the rest is that whether a particular darsana appeals to an individual depending on their stage in life, the particular mix of gunas(satvic, rajasik and Tamasik) in the individual. In fact the same person could subscribe to all three darsanas depending on their stage in life.
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I agree Kaushal.
The Mahavakyas are most clear, yet a path to those truths thru temple worship and love and devotion of a Personal God instils a dvaitic relationship. Most Hindus are dvaitic and advaitic at the same time whether they think about these philosophical things or not. I am a monistic theist myself - Advaita Isvarapada.
The shad dharsanas are gone leaving only vedanta. Nothing is sacrosanct, even the other 5 dharsanas that were written by eminent vedic rishis. We are grateful to that period of change and evolution of Hindu philosophy. Philosophical models come and go, but the worship of the gods remains. Well, even here there has been great change; from numerous vedic gods, we have only about a dozen today that is worshipped. Brahma has disappeared, now only found in Bali.
Today, the whole of the smirthis is being challenged and rejected, and parts of the vedanta models are being queried too. Meanings and translations of the vedanta sutras are being queried as the language used is now thought by academics to have more wider interpretations, and open ended. No longer are Hindus wanting to be just confined to veda and vedanta; they want inclusion of agamanta and bakti philosophy too as integral to Hindu philosophy. Vedanta sutras is now considered just another book in the Hindu library, neither more or less important than the others. Hindus are wanting to be more balanced.
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