I guess this about sums it up. Hindus are unmoved. As I indicated earlier, brahmins are not loved and respected among Hindus, except for the priesthood itself whom they rush to, and care for eagerly. This was my reading of the sentiments of the people in India, which I think everyone felt, except the brahmins themselves, who I think continue to live in a virtual reality thinking they are loved and respected by the people, their knowledge of the religion sought after, and reacting in such ways. Perhaps as an impartial outsider looking in, I could see a different perspective that they themselves, being inside the box, could not. Now the people, the media, other monasteries and renowned Hindu swamis confirms it.
<b>The Shankaracharya has insisted only a Brahmin cook should prepare his food in jail. Lower castes are traditionally considered to be polluting.</b>
(I want pork chops and sushi in jail! <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> )
By this alone, JS is further enraging the people and the brahmins are further alieanating themselves from the Hindu mass. They just dont realise it.
Twice rejected for bail, Hindus are slowly gathering that surely not all its judiciary is corrupt and incompetant, and perhaps this may not be a conspiracy after all. And realising that perhaps there was a virtual wall after all that kept them from listening and seeing. These events is not just about JS. The peoples' non reactions is a message to all the orthodox mutts and the brahmins.
Madhu Pandit Das confirms the rumours I too heard over time which I desisted from posting for fear of being labelled rumour mongering. Like I said, everyone heard the rumours except the brahmin community.
I hope this is not termed brahmin hating or bashing. I am mentioning this so that the community considers this point of view and get out of the cocoon they have built themselves in. Be a priest and be loved and respected, and your knowledge of the scriptures sought after, or drop the brahmin identity altogether.
This is about the most gentle way I can express it. No flames please.
Regards.
Pathma
PS: added later.
These things about JS, Kanchi, smarthas and brahmins is just because these issues arose at this time. It also applies, and I would have said the same to every other mutt, sampradaya and sect, and every caste group including the OBCs who are the most violent and equally casteist. Even the dalits are casteist, for god knows why!
<b>Arrest of 'Hindu Pope' sparks little outrage as anti-caste feeling grows</b>
By Edward Luce
Published: December 18 2004 02:00 | Last updated: December 18 2004
02:00
Followers of traditional Brahmin Hinduism have been in profound
despair since the Shankaracharya of Kanchi - leader of possibly
India's most august Hindu institution - was last month arrested by
police on suspicion of murder.
The Shankaracharya, a 70-year-old spiritual leader to millions of
Hindus, was yesterday denied his appeal to be freed on bail.
The case, which hinges on the pontiff's alleged hiring of contract
killers to murder Shakaraman, the former temple accountant, who was
allegedly blackmailing the Shankaracharya over corrupt practices,
looks likely to culminate in one of the most controversial murder
trials India has seen.
Yet the arrest - and the media's almost gleeful subsequent
humiliation of the Shankaracharya - has singularly failed to ignite
the mass outrage many were expecting.
Often described as the Hindu Pope, Jayendra Saraswati - the
Shankaracharya's actual name - was arrested last month on the eve of
Divali, one of the most important festivals in the Hindu calendar.
Prosecuting lawyers in Tamil Nadu, the southern state in which the
pontiff is based and where he is held in custody, have leaked tales
of corruption and sensual indulgence more redolent of Europe's
medieval papacy.
Leaders of the Hindu nationalist BJP, which was defeated in national
polls last May, have repeatedly attempted to galvanise popular
outrage over the police's apparent rough handling of the
Shankaracharya - but to little avail. Meanwhile, other Hindu leaders
have observed the case with disquiet.
"Hindus are a very gentle and non-violent people," Sri Sri Ravi
Shankar, head of the Art of Living Foundation, a spiritual movement
based in Bangalore, told the Financial Times. "We are not easily
provoked into outrage. But I feel we are losing our sense of
identity. We are no longer reacting as Hindus."
Mr Ravi Shankar, whose ashram on the outskirts of Bangalore is a
study in marbled opulence, is one of a growing band of modern
spiritual leaders with close connections to India's software
industry and with legions of western devotees. Unlike the
Shankaracharya, whose institution is deeply traditional, Mr Ravi
Shankar rejects caste - the birth-based system of social division
with which traditional Hinduism is associated.
Dressed in white robes and wearing a flowing biblical beard, Mr Ravi
Shankar gently suggests the Shankaracharya's resolutely Brahmin, or
upper caste, identity, may explain the lack of popular outrage among
ordinary Hindus. The Shankaracharya has insisted only a Brahmin cook
should prepare his food in jail. Lower castes are traditionally
considered to be polluting.
"There is a lot of anti-Brahmin feeling in India at the moment,"
says Mr Ravi Shankar. "Rigidity in the caste system has declined a
lot in the last 50 years. But also Hinduism ... is not organised and
is more institutionally diverse. This should also be seen as a
strength. It means less possibility for mass outrage."
Madhu Pandit Das, head of the International Society for Krishna
Consciousness (Iskon), better known in the west as the "Hare
Krishna" movement, also based in Bangalore, says traditional
Hinduism has declining appeal. Iskon has been split into two warring
factions since its founder's death in 1977. The movement also faces
class action suits over alleged paedophilia at its ashrams in the US.
Mr Das, whose mission is to "clean up" the sect, believes the Hare
Krishna movement still has great advantages over the traditional
institutions of Hinduism, perhaps most aptly symbolised by the
incarcerated Shankaracharya. Iskon's vast Bangalore temple feeds
60,000 slum children every day, making sure that upper and lower
caste boys and girls dine together. It completely rejects caste
distinctions.
Like Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Mr Das is surrounded by former software
engineers and management graduates who have trained to become gurus.
This is one reason why Bangalore, India's software capital, is so
popular with the new Hindu cults.
"We run our organisation like a modern corporate," he says. "We have
boardrooms, liquid crystal displays, transparent audits of our
finances and we keep the temple meticulously clean. Have you seen
how filthy the traditional temples are?"
Egged on by police and lawyers, who appear bent on showcasing the
country's system of equality before the law in their treatment of
the Shankaracharya, Indian media have publicised a litany of alleged
malpractices at the pontiff's temple, both financial and sexual.
Whether any of the allegations are true - and regardless of the
outcome of any trial that might ensue - most Indians appear
singularly unmoved.
"Most Indians are not Brahmins," explains Mr Das. "Also I think
there have been so many rumours for so long about this particular
institution that there is sufficient doubt there in the popular
mind."
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Shankaracharya has insisted only a Brahmin cook should prepare his food in jail. Lower castes are traditionally considered to be polluting.
(I want pork chops and sushi in jail! )
By this alone, JS is further enraging the people and the brahmins are further alieanating themselves from the Hindu mass<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->.
Nothing sinister about wanting a Brahmana cook, because that is the other profession that they were found in great numbers. Even those who were not Brahmanas insisted on Brahmana cooks, because it was generally believed they observed a higher degree of personal hygiene . I am not defending the acharya but it is certainly not worth making a mountain out of a molehill. Of course one could be less transparent and say the cook should be a graduate of the Vedic culinary institute, but alas Brahmanas have not learnt PR yet.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am mentioning this so that the community considers this point of view and get out of the cocoon they have built themselves in. Be a priest and be loved and respected, and your knowledge of the scriptures sought after, or drop the brahmin identity altogether<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->.
Alas It is not i who draws attention to the Brahmana identity but the dravidianists who insist that i wear the brahmana label. Whether it is the contemptuous manner in which they refer to me as a Papan, or whether they refuse me admission based on merit they will not let me forget that i am a Brahmana (incidentally our domestic help are Dalits ... so please i could do without the unctuous lectures on how not to oprress those who claim to be oppressed) .
Ahem, a need for refining the so called Karmic theory that was expounded?!
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The priesthood failed to understand that they are here to serve the people, all the people, with love, that the people are their patrons, their protectors and the source of their livelihood.
Something like this happened in India, driving the people away to secularism, leftism and athiesm, other religions - and eventually the big karma was coming.
Inspite of all this, though the Hindus resented, they did no react. (This means there was no hate, only quiet resentment and exasperation which was obvious to anybody who talked to Indians.)
What happened recently was not the peoples' doing. It was an act of god.
When something like this happens to a Pontiff, it means it is happening to the whole group; here to all smartha brahmanas and the 4 other shankaracharyas and the 10 dasanami orders too.
Healing begins when people introspect, accept karmic responsibility, and make amends.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excuse me - the sankaracharya <i>insisted</i> that a Brahmin cook his food? Really? And therefore people listened to him?
I heard he[/U][/B]insisted he was innocent<b>[U]... why aren't these wonderful people who let him have his every whim listening to him then?
The Sankaracharya asked that </b>he be allowed to prepare his own food<b> as is his CUSTOM! (I wonder how many servants toil to make the "egalitarian" "Kalaignar's" meals!)
The sankaracharya will typically not eat anything unless it is prepared by his own hands or in a Brahmin's house. That is how my grandma used to be to! I'd like to know why that *traditional personal preference* should alienate </b>ANYBODY[B]!
The whole fundament of the argument is ludicrous. The persons being obnoxious here are the Food Nazis who want to force others to eat things they don't want to! Remember that scene from Lagaan?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->New York, Dec 28 (IANS) A Michigan-based Hindu group has condemned labelling Sunday's tsunami tragedy a "vengeful act of God" and asked the global Hindu community to contribute generously to assist victims of the catastrophe.
The group, Navya Shastra, in a statement condemned organisations in India that described the tsunami as "divine retribution" for the arrest of the Kanchi Shankracharya on murder and other charges.
"Hindus should not ascribe the disaster to divine retribution", the statement quoted Rajarathina Bhattar, Navya Shastra advisor and a Houston priest, as saying.
"At times like these, sane voices must prevail," he said.
The organisation also called on the global Hindu community to contribute generously to assist the victims of the tragedy, which has claimed nearly 25,000 lives in South and Southeast Asia, including about 6,000 in India.
"Our religious ideals, enshrined in the Vedas and the Thirukkural, exhort us to give to those in need", said V.C. Vijayaraghavan, a Navya Shastra member from London.
"This is all the more important because so many of the victims were innocent children," he added.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm.. Did this "michigan based Hindu group" hear about the 'dreams' some of its members were having ?? Did they "condemn" that ? So much for "Hindu" group.. <!--emo&:flush--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/Flush.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='Flush.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Meanwhile "stupid indian hindus" just keep doing their thing while "intelligent NRI hindus" keep doing their thing.. Who to believe ?? <!--emo&:o--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ohmy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> VISAKHAPATNAM, DEC. 27. Even as life limped back to normalcy at the Fishing Harbour here, a day after tsunami caused devastation in the entire east coast, fisherfolk offered traditional prayers to the sea goddess, Gangamma.
Dancing to the beats of `dappu' (drum), they came in large numbers to the temple located near the harbour and conducted special prayers with potfuls of toddy, turmeric water and neem leaves.
Goddess is `furious'
The fisherfolk believe that Gangamma was furious due to unknown reasons, which triggered the tsunami. "We think that She is angry and unless we appease Her with prayers and toddy, She will not cool down,'' Polamma, a fisherwoman, said.
The fisherfolk came in procession from Prasada Gardens and Kotha Jalaripeta around noon and prayed before the Goddess in turns as the temple was very small and located opposite harbour.
Later, another group of fisherfolk went to the shore near Krishna Park, broke coconuts on rocks brought by them and immersed bunches of bananas, their leaves and tender parts of the plant's trunk in the sea.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, Pathma. I am just amused, as I have been since the beginning. All the bobbing and weaving - between "Absolute Universalism" to "Selective Relativism" and "Deconstructing History" to "Selective resurrection of flawed history" and "Karma" to "God's will" and selective notion of who humans are in "human rights" - to just bash Sanskrit and Brahmins or anything that is remotely associated to the above two. I tried to track your thought process for a while, but you are too much for mere mortals like me. <!--emo&:lol:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Actually I am surprised that the Tsunami has not been blamed yet on Brahmins and Sanskritization of Dravidians <!--emo&:lol:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The article quoted Swami Sri Sri Ravi Shankar regarding the shankaracharya 'insisting on a brahmin cook', not me. You may want to take it up with him.
Hi Rajesh,
Your insinuations are not clear. Would you like to elaborate?
Hi Ram, <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I understand your 'amused dilemma', which I share, for altogether different reasons though, and which, I presume may have occurred to you already, or which will be made apparent in due course.
You volunteered a 'refining of karma theory'. I look forward to hearing your views, which you know I take seriously.
Ridding casteism from mutts - From an RSS friend
------
In south karnataka, the RSS started cultivating some mutts a few decades ago
the mutt chief, a brahmin, had the tradition of dining only with fellow brahmins
The RSS cultivated this mutt and as part of this, the local RSS chief had dinners with the mutt head once a week
Initially the local RSS chief was a brahmin and there was no problem
The next local RSS chief was also a brahmin and again no problem
Meanwhile through persuasion, the mutt head was slowly brought around to the need for hindu unity and eradication of casteism
The third local RSS chief was of fisherman caste but by this time the mutt chief had mellowed down on casteism and continued to interdine with the local RSS fisherman
The moral of this is that it takes a lot of persuasion to de-castify mutts and it is a slow process
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The moral of this is that it takes a lot of persuasion to de-castify mutts and it is a slow process<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the end, all sat and ate Fish Pakoda, Fish Biryani, Fish Fry & Sushi and the entire village was happy. Another happy ending story
12-31-2004, 02:34 AM (This post was last modified: 12-31-2004, 02:35 AM by Sunder.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Vajramuni+Dec 31 2004, 01:38 AM-->QUOTE(Vajramuni @ Dec 31 2004, 01:38 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The moral of this is that it takes a lot of persuasion to de-castify mutts and it is a slow process<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the end, all sat and ate Fish Pakoda, Fish Biryani, Fish Fry & Sushi and the entire village was happy. Another happy ending story <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the end, the fishermen got to feel part of the Sanathana Dharma fold, which owes a lot to the Son of a Fisherwoman - Satyavathi.
The Son was Sri Veda Vyasa.
Moral of the story.. Sanathana Dharma is not limited to a few. It is Universal - Unconditionally. (Except the condition that those who revere the Vedas and follow it will be revered and adored over the others.. Irrespective of Varna.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In the end, the fishermen got to feel part of the Sanathana Dharma fold, which owes a lot to the Son of a Fisher woman - Satyavathi.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont get me wrong. I agree with you. The question I would ask any modern Brahmin are you as good as Ravana? Highest of the modern Brahmin would not stand a chance in front of Ravana in Spiritual accomplishment. Same holds true to Satyavathi/Ved Vyasa, it is past time. Good people are rare. Could A.J. Kalam/ K.R. Narayanan have become India's PM. This post is only for sick people from backward BIMARU states. The conflict is with Materialistic progress as opposed to spiritual progress. One can get rich by any method, but spiritual progress is only one difficult way. Who will take the responsibility to spiritually advance all beings helping themselves at the same time and still lead a modern life. Too difficult. One answer to all this is, everything will happen as it should happen in Kali Yuga.
<!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As an unworthy representative of the 'sick people from backward BIMARU states'(sic), I still feebly protest, that Ravana, who had a penchant for stealing or forcibly taking other's wives (he didn't even spare his elder relative Shambara's wife), is not a role model even for us.
There is a story about 'Bhandasura' in Tripura-Upakhyanam. This was a demon who was technically a very pious person, but only technically. Thats why the name 'Bhanda' or a pretender.
Such 'Bhandas' are very common. And since they are technically very pious peole, are hard to pin down. Ravana for all his knowledge and power was a spiritual 'Bhanda'.
The revererd 'Vajramuni' may have a 'bhanda' agenda too. Allow me to elaborate:
Just observe how he brings in 'sick people from backward BIMARU states' along with a praise for Ravana, knowing well (perhaps) that Dravianists at one point had lionized Ravana. The 'muni' (a sanskrit word meaning someone who observes silence or mauna), perhaps wants to light up some fires ,for spiritual penance of course! <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='rolleyes.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
As an unworthy representative of the 'sick people from backward BIMARU states'(sic), I still feebly protest, that Ravana, who had a penchant for stealing or forcibly taking other's wives (he didn't even spare his elder relative Shambara's wife), is not a role model even for us.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry to offend your feelings about your golden state of Bihar. I just quoted this to concur with Mr. Sunder and to make a point that Modern people are no match to ancient ones even if one comes from a Rakshasha race. Probably Vibishana is a better example, I justed quoted Ravana to reflect the contrast. Please elect a Southern PM we will continue the discussion later. True brahmins from the south originally can claim their origin to Central India I guess MA, , that wold make us BIMARU, I guess not. Becoz we are southies now. Present times are no comparison to ancient times.
Watch your back Ashok Kumar! I have feeling you will end up as S.B. Dey / Dubey. Just kidding. But, you get my point.
12-31-2004, 04:12 AM (This post was last modified: 12-31-2004, 04:12 AM by Sunder.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Ashok Kumar+Dec 31 2004, 03:41 AM-->QUOTE(Ashok Kumar @ Dec 31 2004, 03:41 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> There is a story about 'Bhandasura' in Tripura-Upakhyanam. This was a demon who was technically a very pious person, but only technically. Thats why the name 'Bhanda' or a pretender. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--> PDF FIle - Lalithopakhyana - the story of Sri Lalitha Devi, and Bandasura Vadham.
This is perhaps one of my favourite incidents in history. The story of Bhandasura is beautifully outlined in Sri Lalitha Sahasranamam. I shall xpost it in Ithihasa Purana thread .
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Watch your back Ashok Kumar! I have feeling you will end up as S.B. Dey / Dubey. Just kidding. But, you get my point.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow! A threat couched in seeming words of caring! Truly worthy of a bhanda-muni. Why would a true 'muni' (practitioner of silence) join a forum, I wonder. Yes, I get your point! <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyway, it would be relevant to your claims if you could lay down your points about moral superiority of Ravana. Point by point please...
And while it may be too much for you to tame the beast within, but do try to argue without issueing any threats!
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Wow! A threat couched in seeming words of caring! Truly worthy of a bhanda-muni. Why would a true 'muni' (practitioner of silence) join a forum, I wonder. Yes, I get your point! <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was not a threat but a word of caution since you are originally from Bihar. Perhaps you carry a dagger too!, or perhaps worse. I did not want to disclose why I chose Vajramuni, but I will disclose it. But first, one must be fortunate so GOD himself has taken life to slay you. Ravana & KumbaKarna are second incarnation of a cursed birth of Jaya and Vijaya attendants to Lord Vishnu from Vaikunta. It was scripted that Lord Vishnu would be born as Narasimha to slay Hiranyaksha, Hirankasipu, Ravana & Kumbakarna as Rama, and Jarasanda & Sishupala as Krishna. Each of these incarnations take place in a particular yuga and has specific meaning.
Rama's incarnation in Treta Yuga was the advent of model man. Ravana was scripted to be born to display the heights to materialism & all its outcomes. Rama's display was to show a ideal man's life and spiritual conquest of entire India. Rama was born in Central India in a royal family, all the Gandahrvas & devas would be born as alpha & proto Humans in the Deccan area, God as Rama, Proto-humans, & Animals would unite in the defeat of Materialism, vile etc. establishment of Dharma in entire India (reestablishment of dharma in the North). From the Heights of Manasarovara in the Krita Yuga to the complete establishment of Dharma in entire India. Which meant the civilization of the south of the Vindyas. Since then Brahmins have moved south. It is this legacy that has made Bharath the spiritual beacon in our backwaters of Sri Lanka, Thailand Malaysia & Indonesia.
Nothing lasts for ever in Dwapara Yuga Krishna was born to enforce the same message that one must be proactive in the defeat of Adharma even when it is within our own family & the preservation of Dharma. Since then India has survived, may be Hindu Gods are not that effective as the other Gods, only GOD can tell.
Coming to my ID, perhaps I am better of as Vajra. that is what I am may be a Black Diamond. You may have hit a jack pot. I may be the Bhanda, I chose Vajramuni though it sounds more human than Vajra mainly from a Kannada film Actor. Ask Bangaloreans on this forum about him. May be I am not Good after all.
<!--QuoteBegin-Vajramuni+Dec 31 2004, 09:49 AM-->QUOTE(Vajramuni @ Dec 31 2004, 09:49 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> It was scripted that Lord Vishnu would be born as Narasimha to slay Hiranyaksha, Hirankasipu, Ravana & Kumbakarna as Rama, and Jarasanda & Sishupala as Krishna. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Vajramuni, Sisupala and Dantavakra were incarnations of Jaya/Vijaya. Not Jarasanda.
(Secondly, as you already know, Varaha and Narasimha Avatara slayed Hiranyaksha and Hiranyakashipu respectively.)
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