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There is an intriguing admission by the Witzel types: that Yoga knowledge systems are re-assertions of the indigenous talent after the aryan invasion; despite their unending perfidy, these could not conceptualize any other possibility.



The unstated reason for their peculiar stance is that India exported Buddha Dharma while the west exported christianity... This meta level fact constrains historical theorizing.

[quote name='dhu' date='11 April 2010 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1270977509' post='105835']

The remainder of the heathen realm was receptive to Indian knowledge because of a shared heathen dynamics; Monotheism systematically eliminated such considerations from the equation and could thus project its present colonization back into the past as well. Probably, there is some need to colonize the past to maintain integrity in the facade.



The ancient Judaism/Christianity binary was replicated as a "Hinduism"/Modernism binary. Judaism was the spitted-out shell of the colonized's past. "Hinduism" is the same.

[/quote]

This is exactly what the DMK dravidian movement is doing.

Anything Hindu is considered as "colonizing"

dhu

Quote:The ancient Judaism/Christianity binary was replicated as a "Hinduism"/Modernism binary. Judaism was the spitted-out shell of the colonized's past. "Hinduism" is the same.

By same token can we say Christianity is Judaism's spitted out future and eventually led to Islam and Communism?



Another way of saying it is Judaism spat out its normatized process (Egyptian monotheism, the Persian interlude of heaven and hell, dark and light, the Greek/Hellenic reconstruction of Old Testament) as Christianity. And Islam emerged in the nether regions of West Asia, when the Romans took over Christianity. Again as a reaction to Reformation -> Enlightenment etc, Communism emerges to normatize the rest.

Are these articles still there somewhere?



http://www.india-forum.com/indian_histor...dex.1.html



Clicking on them doesn't lead to anywhere.

A new foundation for history



The idea of the Aryan invasion, related to such concepts as the ‘Aryan race’ and the ‘Aryan nation’, has more to do with Europe than India. Like the German Nationalist Movement that gave rise to it, the ‘Aryan race’ concept should be seen as part of European history.



It became part of Indian historiography only because it could be used to impose a Eurocentric version of Indian history to go with European colonialism. Its creators and beneficiaries were mainly colonial scholars and Christian missionaries. They made no secret of their intentions.



Lord Elphinstone, Governor of Bombay, once said: "Divide and rule was Roman policy and it should also be ours." This was put into practice in the form of the invading fair-skinned Aryans colonizing the dark-skinned Dravidians— little more than a copy of European colonization of Asia and Africa.

[size="6"]

And W.W. Hunter, a leading Indologist of the nineteenth century wrote: "Scholarship is warmed with the holy flame of Christian zeal." It was such scholars who created the version of history that went into textbooks in colonial India.[/size]



This is understandable from the colonial point of view, but why are they still taught in Indian schools and colleges fifty years after independence, especially when they are entirely without a scientific foundation or even rudimentary evidence? To understand this, it helps to recognize that British education left behind an elite that was cut off from Indian tradition but uncritically accepted anything coming from the West as valid.

[size="6"]

This elite soon gained monopoly of the Indian intellectual and educational establishment. This allowed a ‘colonial hangover’ to continue, with the same version of history becoming the version favored by the Indian ‘establishment’. This was supplemented by another Eurocentric ideology called Marxism, which became the official position of the Indian establishment.[/size]



This had been anticipated by Sri Aurobindo long ago when he wrote: "That Indian scholars have not been able to form themselves into a great and independent school of learning is due to two causes: the miserable scantiness of the mastery in Sanskrit provided by our universities, crippling to all but born scholars, and our lack of sturdy independence which makes us over-ready to defer to European [and Western] authority."



This colonial-Marxist elite dominated the history establishment, leading to stifling of debate and rejection of alternative viewpoints. In the circumstances, it is no accident that the most significant advances in Indian history — from the discovery of the Vedic Sarasvati River to the decipherment of the Harappan script — should have come from the work of non-establishment scholars.



As for as the Harappan civilization is concerned— we now have conclusive evidence to show that it was Vedic. What is presented in the present article is a small part of the new picture. The deciphered readings make it even more conclusive. (For details see The Deciphered Indus Script by N. Jha and N.S. Rajaram, Aditya Prakashan, Delhi.)



The two great weaknesses of the Indian history establishment — apart from their lack of independence — are ignorance of the scientific method and ignorance of the primary languages. [size="6"]These weaknesses have led its members to apply modern trappings like Christian prejudices and Marxism to people and cultures that lived thousands of years ago. [/size]



This suggests that a new school of scholarship needs to be built that combines traditional learning like Vedic scholarship and the modern scientific method. They provide a firm foundation for ancient Indian history by linking archaeology to ancient literature, beginning with the Rigveda. Such an approach has already yielded dividends in solving the demanding problem of deciphering the Indus script.



The present article provides other examples of such a mix. The study of ancient Indian can now begin in real earnest, based on science and the primary sources rather than on the whims and fancies of colonial and missionary interests. This has been long overdue.

http://www.vandemataram.com/html/aryan/arti4_2.htm

News Report in Pioneer...

Quote:FLASH | Tuesday, August 24, 2010 | Email | Print | | Back





Hitler possibly had Jewish, African roots



IANS | London



Nazi leader Adolf Hitler possibly had Jewish as well as African ancestors - communities whom he had pledged to exterminate, new DNA tests have revealed.



Daily Express Tuesday reported that samples taken from Hitler's relatives link him to both the Jewish community and people from North Africa.



Jean-Paul Mulders, a journalist, was able to investigate Hitler’s DNA after he managed to lay his hands on a serviette dropped by the dictator’s great-nephew Alexander Stuart-Houston who lives in New York. A serviette is a small square of cloth or paper used while eating to protect the clothes, wipe the mouth and hand.



He got a second sample from an Austrian cousin of Hitler, a farmer known as Norbert H, the media report said.



The DNA tests threw up a startling result.



It revealed a form of the Y-chromosome that is rare in Germany and the rest of Western Europe, but common among Jewish and North African groups.



Experts now think that Hitler had migrant relatives who settled in his homeland.



Mulders said both the test samples had a form of genetic material known as Haplopgroup E1b1b, proving an "irrefutable link" to the Nazi leader.



"It is most commonly found in the Berbers of Morocco, in Algeria, Libya and Tunisia, as well as among Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews. One can from this postulate that Hitler was related to people whom he despised," the Belgian journalist was quoted as saying.



Ronny Decorte, a genetic specialist in Belgium, said: "Hitler would not have been pleased about this.



"Race and blood was central in the world of the Nazis. Hitler’s concern over his descent was not unjustified. He was apparently not ‘pure’ or ‘Aryan’."

India: The seductive and the seduced other of German Orientalism by Kamakshi Murti

Dhu,

Another book is "Indo-German Identifcation". by Robert Cowan



It gives avery clear track record of how the Europeans viewed the idea of India and sought to get out of Judiac origins theory. It has later chapters where they go voer the top.



Google Books:



Indo-German Identification



The big idea is there were two main streams in Europe: Latinification and Germanism.



Latinification as it was already normatized by Judeo-Christian ideas had the early lead and did not question the Bibilial account for they benefiteed from it.



The Germanism was reaction to the Latinised monoploy and sought to assert itself. The first concrete step was the Holy Roman Empire which was Germanic. This is approximately 9 centuries after Rome conquered the Goths who are Germanic. Later it launched Protestant movement which led to Church Reformation. The English who are really Latinised derivatives managed to colonise ahead of the Germanic landlubbers and confined them to the continent. The war of 1760 saw the rise of Prussia, Russia as continental powers.



The events of WWI and WWII are part of the Germanic breakout of the older Latinised/Roman imperial order.

On the Greek and Hebrew symbiosis:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_Gordon

Quote:Not afraid of scholarly controversy, Gordon challenged traditional theories about Greek and Hebrew cultures. In the 1960s, he declared his examination of Minoan (Cretan) texts corroborated his long-held theory that Greek and Hebrew cultures stemmed from a common Semitic heritage. He asserted that this culture spanned the eastern Mediterranean from Greece to Palestine during the Minoan era.

Suzanne L. Marchand, "German Orientalism in the Age of Empire: Religion, Race, and Scholarship"



C-bridge | 2010 | ISBN: 0521169070, 0521518490 | 560 pages |

Quote:Nineteenth-century studies of the Orient changed European ideas and cultural institutions in more ways than we usually recognize. "Orientalism" certainly contributed to European empire-building, but it also helped to destroy a narrow Christian-classical canon. This carefully researched book provides the first synthetic and contextualized study of German Orientalistik, a subject of special interest because German scholars were the pace-setters in oriental studies between about 1830 and 1930, despite entering the colonial race late and exiting it early. The book suggests that we must take seriously German orientalism's origins in Renaissance philology and early modern biblical exegesis and appreciate its modern development in the context of nineteenth- and early-twentieth-century debates about religion and the Bible, classical schooling, and Germanic origins. In ranging across the subdisciplines of Orientalistik, German Orientalism in the Age of Empire introduces readers to a host of iconoclastic characters and forgotten debates, seeking to demonstrate both the richness of this intriguing field and its indebtedness to the cultural world in which it evolved.

The Aryan Invasion Theory has had 2 bad effects on India



In South India, the Church is using this to stir up anti-brahmin and anti-North Indian feelings. Also trying to incite the Dalits



In North India, foolish people who think they have a drop of white blood and hence are superior to SDRE Indians and call them Kallu, usually I see Jats, Sikhs, Punjabis , even Coorgis ( in Karnataka )

all claim to be descended from Aryans, Scythians or been raped by Alexanders soldiers.



One symptom we can see is that many North Indians abroad, prefer to socialize with Pakistanis ( who also claim to have Aryan, Persian, Turk and Arab blood )

vs SDRE Indians

Post 1/?



Not about AIT. But PIE. In particular things claimed for PIE mythology / as "originating" in PIE mythology. And hence leading to IE encroachment on others heathenisms. (Yet, with no actual evidence provided by PIE-ists. Only the word "potentially".)



In another thread, had mentioned the famous Shinto sacred narrative of Heavenly Sea Kami Susano-o-no-mikoto subduing the Orochi. I got confused: it was an 8-headed and 8-tailed snake not a dragon.





Wacky on Susanowo vs Orochi:

Quote:Mythology[edit]

Yamata no Orochi legends are originally recorded in two ancient texts about Japanese mythology and history. The ca. 680 AD Kojiki transcribes this dragon name as 八岐遠呂智 and ca. 720 AD Nihongi writes it as 八岐大蛇. In both versions of the Orochi myth, Susanoo or Susa-no-Ō is expelled from Heaven for tricking his sister Amaterasu the sun-goddess.



After expulsion from Heaven, Susanoo encounters two "Earthly Deities" (國神, kunitsukami) near the head of the Hi River (簸川), now called the Hii River (ja:斐伊川), in Izumo Province. They are weeping because they were forced to give the Orochi one of their daughters every year for seven years, and now they must sacrifice their eighth, Kushi-inada-hime (櫛名田比売 "comb/wondrous rice-field princess", who Susanoo transforms into a kushi 櫛 "comb" for safekeeping). The Kojiki tells the following version.

Quote:So, having been expelled, [His-Swift-impetuous-Male-Augustness] descended to a place [called] Tori-kami (鳥髪, now 鳥上) at the head-waters of the River Hi in the Land of Idzumo. At this time some chopsticks came floating down the stream. So His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness, thinking that there must be people at the head-waters of the river, went up it in quest of them, when he came upon an old man and an old woman, --two of them,--who had a young girl between them, and were weeping. Then he deigned to ask: "Who are ye?" So the old man replied, saying: "I am an Earthly Deity, child of the Deity Great-Mountain-Possessor. I am called by the name of Foot-Stroking-Elder, my wife is called by the name of Hand-Stroking Elder, and my daughter is called by the name of Wondrous-Inada-Princess." Again he asked: What is the cause of your crying?" [The old man answered] saying: "I had originally eight young girls as daughters. But the eight-forked serpent of Koshi has come every year and devoured [one], and it is now its time to come, wherefore we weep." Then he asked him: "What is its form like?" [The old man] answered, saying: "Its eyes are like akahagachi, it has one body with eight heads and eight tails. Moreover on its body grows moss, and also chamaecyparis and cryptomerias. Its length extends over eight valleys and eight hills, and if one look at its belly, it is all constantly bloody and inflamed." (What is called here akahagachi is the modern hohodzuki [winter-cherry]) Then His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness said to the old man: "If this be thy daughter, wilt thou offer her to me?" He replied, saying: "With reverence, but I know not thine august name." Then he replied, saying: "I am elder brother to the Heaven-Shining-Great-August-Deity. So I have now descended from Heaven." Then the Deities Foot-Stroker-Elder and Hand-Stroking-Elder said: "If that be so, with reverence will we offer [her to thee]." So His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness, at once taking and changing the young girl into a multitudinous and close-toothed comb which he stuck into his august hair-bunch, said to the Deities Foot-Stroking-Elder and Hand-Stroking-Elder: "Do you distill some eight-fold refined liquor. Also make a fence round about, in that fence make eight gates, at each gate tie [together] eight platforms, on each platform put a liquor-vat, and into each vat pour the eight-fold refined liquor, and wait." So as they waited after having thus prepared everything in accordance with his bidding, the eight-forked serpent came truly as [the old man] had said, and immediately dipped a head into each vat, and drank the liquor. Thereupon it was intoxicated with drinking, and all [the heads] lay down and slept. Then His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness drew the ten-grasp sabre, that was augustly girded on him, and cut the serpent in pieces, so that the River Hi flowed on changed into a river of blood. So when he cut the middle tail, the edge of his august sword broke. Then, thinking it strange, he thrust into and split [the flesh] with the point of his august sword and looked, and there was a great sword [within]. So he took this great sword, and, thinking it a strange thing, he respectfully informed the Heaven-Shining-Great-August-Deity. This is the Herb-Quelling Great Sword. (tr. Chamberlain 1919:71-3)

Compare the Nihongi description of the Yamata no Orochi (tr. Aston 1896:1:52-53).

Quote:"It had an eight-forked head and an eight-forked tail; its eyes were red, like the winter-cherry; and on its back firs and cypresses were growing. As it crawled it extended over a space of eight hills and eight valleys." These botanical names used to describe this Orochi are akahagachi or hoozuki ("winter cherry or Japanese lantern, Physalis alkekengi"), hikage ("club moss, Lycopodiopsida), hinoki ("Japanese cypress, Chamaecyparis obtusa), and sugi ("Japanese cedar, Cryptomeria").

This legendary sword Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi, along with the Yata no Kagami mirror and Yasakani no Magatama jewel or orb, are the three sacred Imperial Regalia of Japan.

The above is just part of Susano-o's narrative, he goes on to more after that. Still, so far so good, but to make it clear: each of the 8 heads entered by a different gate out of the 8 gates, where each head was trapped by Susano-o for easy dispatching (and which the head didn't notice because it was intoxicated from the ricewine/sake).



As indicated above, it was the divine sword that he found in Orochi - which he gave to his sister Goddess Amaterasu to make amends and which eventually passed down to Japan's emperors - that became the Japanese treasure, not (as I had misremembered) Susano-o's own sacred sword.



The reason for this set of posts is in the following:

Quote:Etymology[edit]

[color="#0000FF"]The Japanese name orochi 大蛇 derives from Old Japanese woröti (with a regular o- from wo- shift, Miller 1971:25-7), but its etymology is enigmatic. Besides this ancient orochi reading, the kanji 大蛇 are commonly pronounced daija "big snake; large serpent".



Carr (1990:169) notes that Japanese scholars have proposed "more than a dozen" orochi < woröti etymologies, while Western linguists have suggested loanwords from Austronesian, Tungusic, and Indo-European languages. The most feasible native etymological proposals are Japanese o- from o 尾 "tail" (which is where Susanoo discovered the sacred sword), ō 大 "big; great", or oro 峰 "peak; summit"; and -chi meaning "god; spirit", cognate with the mizuchi river-dragon. Benedict (1985:167) originally proposed woröti "large snake" was suffixed from Proto-Austro-Japanese *(w)oröt-i acquired from Austronesian *[q]uḷəj "snake; worm"; which he later (1990:243) modified to *(u-)orot-i from *[q,ʔ]oḷəj. Miller (1987:647) criticized Benedict for overlooking Old Japanese "worö 'tail' + suffix -ti — as well as an obvious Tungus etymology, [Proto-Tungus] *xürgü-či 'the tailed one'", and notes "this apparently well-traveled orochi has now turned up in the[/color] speculation of the [Indo-European] folklorists (Littleton 1981)." Littleton's hypothesis involves the 3-headed monster Trisiras or Viśvarūpa, which has a mythological parallel because Indra killed it after giving it soma, wine, and food, but lacks a phonological connection.



Polycephalic or multi-headed animals are rare in biology but common in mythology and heraldry. Multi-headed dragons, like the 8-headed Orochi and 3-headed Trisiras above, are a common motif in comparative mythology. For instance, multi-headed dragons in Greek mythology include the wind-god Typhon who had several polycephalic offspring, including the 9-headed Lernaean Hydra and the 100-headed Ladon, both slain by Hercules.



Two other Japanese examples derive from Buddhist importations of Indian [color="#800080"](code for Hindu**)[/color] dragon myths. Benzaiten, the Japanese name of Saraswati, supposedly killed a 5-headed dragon at Enoshima in 552 AD. Kuzuryū 九頭龍 "9-headed dragon", deriving from the Nagaraja snake-kings Vasuki and Shesha, is worshipped at Togakushi Shrine in Nagano Prefecture. (Compare the Jiutouniao 九頭鳥 "nine-headed bird" in Chinese mythology.)

[color="#800080"](** Although I'm not sure Hindus have "dragons". Hindus have serpents, cosmic serpents perhaps, mysterious ocean serpents too, but no dragons as far as I know. Don't really know "what" - as in, what type of animal other than fantastical - Yazhis are.)[/color]



Comparing folklore about polycephalic dragons and serpents, 8-headed creatures are less common than 7- or 9-headed ones. Among Japanese numerals, ya or hachi 八 can mean "many; varied" (e.g., yaoya 八百屋 [lit. "800 store"] "greengrocer; jack-of-all-trades"). De Visser (1913:150) says the number 8 is "stereotypical" in legends about kings or gods riding dragons or having their carriages drawn by them. Smith (1919:212), who quotes the orochi myth with "seven or eight heads" and compares a Celtic dragon, says, "The seven-headed dragon is found also in the Scottish dragon-myth, and the legends of Cambodia, India, Persia, Western Asia, East Africa, and the Mediterranean area." Smith (1919:215) identifies the mythic 7- or 8-headed dragons with the 7-spiked Pteria spider shell or 8-tentacled octopus.



The myth of a Storm God fighting a Sea Serpent is itself a popular mythic trope potentially originating with the Proto-Indo-European religion[3] and later transmitted into the religions of the Ancient Near East most likely initially through interaction with Hittite speaking peoples into Syria and the Fertile Crescent.[4] This motif, known as chaoskampf (German for "struggle against chaos") represents the clash between order and chaos. Often as these myths evolve from their original source, the role of the storm god (himself often the head of a pantheon) is adopted by culture heroes or a personage symbolizing royalty. A non-exclusive list of mythological parallels to the story of Susanoo vs. Orochi include:



Indo-European



•Thor vs. Jörmungandr (Norse)

•Tarhunt vs. Illuyanka (Hittite)

•Zeus vs. Typhon (Greek)

â—¦Hercules vs. The Lernaean Hydra (Greek)

•Indra vs. Vritra ([color="#FF0000"]Vedic[/color])

◦Krishna vs. Kāliyā ([color="#FF0000"]Indian[/color])

[color="#800080"](Note interesting distinction. Vedic is not used as a religion here, else why Indian not Hindu used thereafter? Whereas Zoroastrian is used for the next example below, which is a religion. And if Vedic is an ethnicity here - odd - why is it magically distinct from Indian? And if Vedic used as culture, Krishna vs Kaaliya is still exclusively Hindu and not general "Indian" whatever that is supposed to be. Still, since when are the two distinct? A: since aliens decided the Vedas are theirs and that Indians are miscegeneated with a miscegenated distinct religion called Hinduism.)[/color]

•Θraētaona vs. Aži Dahāka (Zorastrian)

â—¦Garshasp vs. Zahhak (Iranian)

•Dobrynya Nikitich vs. Zmey Gorynych (Slavic)

â—¦Saint George vs. The Dragon (Christian)

•Făt-Frumos vs. Balaur (Romanian)



Afro-Asiatic



•Baʿal vs. Yam (Canaanite)

•Yu the Great vs. Xiang Liu of Gong Gong (Chinese)

•Marduk vs. Tiamat (Babylonian)

•Atum vs. Nehebkau (Egyptian)

â—¦Ra vs. Apep (Egyptian)

•Yahweh vs. Leviathan (Jewish)

â—¦Gabriel vs. Rahab (Jewish)

â– Christ vs. Satan (Christian)

In many of these examples, the serpent god is often seen as multi-headed or multi-tailed.

Since multiple heads/tails aren't necessary to the pattern claimed for IE and since they're conflating dragon with serpent - thus allowing both kinds of creatures - I note they left several other famous Chinese cases that are in some ways more similar to Orochi's case - and of course have left out traditional African narratives (including one about a hero that I familiar was with from an African tales anthology). Also left out is the famous instance of Apollo vs the Python at Delphi and Apollo thereafter making it his own sacred seat/dwelling.



[And concerning the Babylonian case of Tiamat, though, even the wacky page for Tiamat admits the following, which implies attempt to force it into the pattern:

Quote:"Though Tiamat is often described by modern authors as a sea serpent or dragon, no ancient texts exist in which there is a clear association with those kinds of creatures, and the identification is debated.[9]"

]



The problem:

- How PIE-ists claim - via words like "potentially" - that the motif "must" be PIE originally and hence borrowed by others (non-IE populations) from them. Ref the statement: "The myth of a Storm God fighting a Sea Serpent is itself a popular mythic trope potentially originating with the Proto-Indo-European religion[3] and later transmitted into the religions of the Ancient Near East"



The whole pretence that such things "must" be IE - when it is common to a lot of people throughout the world, the examples will follow - is the usual PIE arrogance coupled with the usual ignorance of PIE-ists in not bothering to check various independent non-IE traditions first in order to see if these have something similar or if a larger pattern emerges that undermines the limited selection of features conveniently identified as forming the trope for consideration.



They've even named it. "Chaoskampf". There's the implication that its origins are more in a sort of kosmic struggle (order vs chaos in religio is generally cosmic) - and certainly, Indra wasn't fighting some garden snake: Vritra was supposed to hogging the Cosmic Waters and causing drought that way.



[Moreover, they admit they can't even force a phonological connection to Indra vs [IIRC TvaShtaa's son?] Trishiras in Susano-o's case. The Sake and Soma are - on surface - good excuses for PIE-ists to fasten thesmelves on, but what about other "motifs" - as in, elements common to similar serpent/dragon related narratives elsewhere - that don't appear to feature in PIE's limited set of defining features for this trope which yet occur in Susano-o's exploit against Orochi?]



Miller's use of "speculation" is appropriate, in this statement again from above:

Quote:Miller (1987:647) criticized Benedict for overlooking Old Japanese "worö 'tail' + suffix -ti [/b]— as well as an obvious Tungus etymology, [Proto-Tungus] *xürgü-či 'the tailed one'", and notes "this apparently well-traveled orochi has now turned up in the[/color] [color=red]speculation [color=blue][b]of the [Indo-European] folklorists (Littleton 1981)."

Why don't PIE-ists get PROOF of transmission first, before jumping to the conclusion that the Shinto narrative about Susanoo must be derived (or inspired)? If insinuating derivation, there are other cases that have far more similarities that can be considered as a better model for the original.



Following posts will go over

- more concerning Susano'o including the rest of the narrative

- cases from other countries

- snakes, dragons in environmental water control

- the elements of similarity in Susanoo vs Orochi to cases outside of the PIE trope that are being ignored in order to forcefit the Shinto instance as a PIE-derivative (from where the PIEists make the claim)

Post 2/ Japan's Shinto Kami Susano-o



Kojiki = name of a sacred Shinto text (based on much older oral tradition) concerning the religio-history of Japan/the Shintos. As such it starts with the Gods (i.e. Japanese native collective memory of origins including the material formation of the islands of Japan) and from there it then ends in Japanese history (as far as history had got to at the point of recording).



britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/321176/Kojiki

Quote:Kojiki, (Japanese: “Records of Ancient Matters”), together with the Nihon shoki, the first written record in Japan, part of which is considered a sacred text of the Shintō religion. The Kojiki text was compiled from oral tradition in 712.



The Kojiki is an important source book for ceremonies, customs, divination, and magical practices of ancient Japan. It includes myths, legends, and historical accounts of the imperial court from the earliest days of its creation up to the reign of Empress Suiko (628). Much of Shintō thought is based on interpretations of the mythology contained in the Kojiki. It was written using Chinese characters to represent Japanese sounds, inasmuch as no means of recording Japan’s developing spoken language had yet been devised. The religious and ethical values of the Kojiki were rediscovered and reevaluated by Moto-ori Norinaga (1730–1801), who wrote the complete “Annotation of the Kojiki” in 49 volumes. The Kojiki was first translated into English in 1882.

b. Notes



Susano'o = brother of Sun Goddess Amaterasu and Moon God.

He is himself a Sea God, and also a Storm God of sorts: being particularly the Summer Storm (not other storm - other Kami for that).



Unlike any Cosmic Serpent/Cosmic Chaos motifs, the narrative of Susano'o is very grounded: by a local (historical, extant) river in Japan, the 8 headed Orichi was demanding yearly sacrifices of the daughters of 2 Earthly/Earth-dwelling Kami. The Heavenly Kami arrives from the Shinto heavenly regions and does away with the Orochi, by first getting it drunk on sake (sake is therefore famous in the region), marries the remaining daughter whom he has rescued - the Kami princess Inata - and chooses a wonderful place in Japan to build a palace for them to reside. He composes the first poem of Japan commemorating this site for their residence and showing his intent to protect his Wife.

Note: *All* these places - where Orochi was buried by Susano'o, the location of the Sake vats, the place of romantic settlement and their first of many children, the entire district famous for sake brewing etc etc are Shrines to these Gods.



If Susano-o is reminiscent of Bhagavaan Indra when wrestling the snake Orochi (though the Shinto case concerns a much more local, earthly and direct threat), then he is like Shiva-Somaskandan at the Marriage Shrine at Yaegaki: where he resides married with Wife and Baby, and being represented at the marriage/divine family residence site by numerous unmistakeably phallic stone sculptures* to which offerings to these Gods are made with hopes of romance/marriage and/or fertility. IIRC the entire family is further present there by 3 sacred stones (like shaaligraamam) to which offerings are made: Father Kami Susano-o, Mother Kami Inata-Hime and their first Baby Kami (a son I think). [Also compare with other cases, like the famous Wedded Rocks in Japan - svayambhu forms of 2 Japanese Shinto Gods who are connected/indicated by a chain as often happens in Japan - is another instance of 2 married Kamis. I even read a Shinto site "explaining" the Wedded Rocks and the Chain with allusion to Shiva, Parvati and the thaali he puts round her neck. Though generally, many Shinto sites - which are sites where the Kami are known to dwell/entrance to Kami realm - are themselves indicated by either a chain or a gate as marker.]

This is not some battle taking place "who knows where" at some cosmic level or in The Beyond (wherever that is) or in the abstract. This was a battle that is supposed to have taken place in Japan, by the River Hii in specific, and the God and his Divine Family dwells all over the shrines of the Sanin region. I.e. it is known, lived-in geography. The Shinto Kami residing on earth all live in earthly sites in Japanese space. These spaces are marked/cordoned off with gates and chains to indicate they are sacred sites belonging to the Kami/residences of the Kami.



* There are several famous sacred Shinto fertility matsuri (festivals) specifically involving the divine male and/or female reproductive organ associated with various Kamis and their spouses. IIRC, in one, the Shintos have a ratha-type procession to carry the Lingam of the husband Kami to the residence housing the Yoni of the wife Kami and re-join the two in sacred Kami union. One such famous matsuri is typically annually terrorised by increasing numbers of repressed alien tourists who tend to invade just for the purpose, where they giggle hysterically and take pictures to lampoon "those funny Japanese". Meanwhile the Shintos - old and young - have been caught on invasive cameras bowing with full and deep reverence to the sacred symbola of their Kamis, and praying for children or spouses or a happy romantic life or just for general blessings. But that's the usual difference between aliens=morons and heathens.



c. Directly-related shrines and sacred sites



Selected excerpts from the following (by a foreigner staying/working in Sanin):



saninstory.wordpress.com/2013/06/05/yamata-no-orochi-tour-part-1-of-3/

saninstory.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/yamata-no-orochi-tour-part-2-of-3/

saninstory.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/yamata-no-orochi-tour-part-3-of-3/



(Useful in that it goes through various sacred sites of the specific region concerning Kami-sama Susano-o and his exploit against the Orochi and subsequent marriage to Kami-sama Inata-Hime, and the birth of their children)

Quote:Unnan (雲南) is a fairly new city, established in 2004 with the merger of five towns and one village. It’s in the southern (南) part of the Izumo region (出雲, which is also sometimes called Unshuu 雲州 with an alternate pronunciation for 雲), hence the name. Not all of the sites having to do with the Yamata-no-Orochi legend take place within the city borders, but most of them do, so many public areas and businesses decorate with giant serpant motifs. For a harrowing monster that’s inspired countless artistic renditions throughout Japanese history and more recently served as the inspiration for foes facing everyone from Godzilla to Doraemon, it hasn’t been able to escape modern Japan’s kawaiiifying culture.



One of the theories I’ve heard about the origins of this legend is that the [color="#0000FF"]anatomy of the Yamata-no-Orochi[/color] was based on the mountains and the offshoots of the Hii River. It’s threat to kamikind was likely based on the [color="#0000FF"]flooded[/color] river’s threat to humankind. The “grass-cutting” sword Susano-o found within one of the tails may represent human triumph over nature in preventing floods and engaging in agriculture, as well as building tools and swords out of iron (both techniques might also have been inherited from Korea). Furthermore, Kushinada-hima is also known as Inata-hime–”Rice Field Princess.” This sources for the Yamata-no-Orochi certainly seems plausible to me, though I don’t know where they would have gotten the parts about the red eyes. On that note, iron is a big thing in ancient Izumo, but that’s something to touch on another time.



On a typical day-tour of the Orochi sites I doubt most people are thinking that deeply into it. It’s fun to drive with a map and check out the well-marked places were even minute pieces of the story took place. While this was the place that the Yamata-no-Orochi lived, it’s also the place where it was buried–the tails in a place called Iwatsubo Shrine, and the heads in a tiny neighborhood spot called Happonsugi (八本杉, literally “eight cedars”). There are eight cedar trees growing there to mark the eight heads.





We got the overview of the home of the Yamata-no-Orochi last time. It didn’t only love the coolness of the Shimane mountains, it loved alcohol–especially Shimane’s rice wine.

If you drive around Unnan with a Yamata-no-Orochi tourism map, you can find your way to places like Kamaishi, a stone that marks the spot where the sake was brewed eight times over, or Kusamakura, a set of hills the monster used as a “grassy pillow” when it was tipsy.



Perhaps the most important site is Inze-no-Tsubogami, where the basins that held the potent liquor were buried (couldn’t have those falling into the wrong lightweight hands, after all!).

There’s not much on this mountain, but it does have atmosphere. The fenced area is around the rocks that closed off the sake basins from the outside world. A curse upon anyone who tries to dig them out!



Like the previously mentioned chopsticks, [color="#0000FF"]this legend is one of the first records of sake production in Japan. It is not the only legend that suggests the Izumo region was the first to enjoy the stuff. Rather, it’s association with Izumo City is stronger than with Unnan City, given the fame and prominence of Izumo Taisha even in modern Shintoism.[/color]



[color="#0000FF"]Izumo Taisha is where all the gods in Japan congregate for their annual meeting to decide the fates and interminglings of people and nature–otherwise known as en. It’s not all work, though–those gods are known for drinking lots and lots of sake.[/color] This perhaps has less to do with drunken kami-sama so much as [color="#0000FF"]sake‘s purifying qualities, hence, it is used extensively in Shinto rituals.[/color] Because there are so many gods to offer sake to at Izumo Taisha, it means that there is lots and lots of high quality sake contributed there.



[color="#0000FF"]Izumo Taisha is not, however, the leading sake shrine. Instead, that would be Saka Shrine (yes, there is sake-related history behind that name).[/color] You can read a more thorough description of the brewing-related rituals that take place there on the Connect Shimane website, but suffice to say for our purposes here that [color="#0000FF"]the main deity* is the patron of brewers, and this is the lead shrine among all others that also worship that kami.[/color] This shrine is also [color="#0000FF"]sometimes called Matsuo Shrine[/color], which should indeed sound familiar if you’ve been to this famous old shrine in western Kyoto.

[color="#800080"](* Kami of Sake brewing = Kusu no kami. He resides at the various Matsuo Shrines of Japan.)[/color]



I’d ask the Yamata-no-Orochi if it agrees with all this sparkling praise of the sake fit for kami-sama, but it’s a little beat up and buried now. With that monster out of the way, Susano-o and Kushinada-hime had wedded bliss to keep busy with, which we’ll take a look at next time.





Following Parts 1 and 2 of the overview of Yamata-no-Orochi sites, we’ve reached the happily-ever-after for Susano-o and Kushinada-hime. Perhaps moreso than for a bloodthirsty and intoxicated giant eight-headed slithering monster, visitors come to the Izumo region seeking their own happy endings.



Here’s that buzzword again: en-musubi.



En originally has to do with any sort of ties different people and nature may have interwoven with each other, but it’s more popularly associated with matchmaking–and there is lots and lots of matchmaking to be done here. Izumo Taisha pretty much specializes in it, and that effect is extended to the rest of the region. Here in Matsue, there are a number of little places specifically known as en-musubi power spots, and finding them is supposed to give you good luck in finding your soul mate–everything from Yaegaki Shrine to a heart in the natural grain of the wood used inside Matsue Castle.



Finding romantic en in all sorts of unintentional places is common throughout Japan. For instance, which a couple of large rocks are found near each other, they are considered Meoto-Iwa (“Husband-and-Wife Boulders”), and they are often tied together with shimenawa, like the pair found in the Mihonoseki area of the Shimane Peninsula.

[color="#800080"](Foreign writer trivialises it. Boulders are not randomly marked as being Kamis. Like sacred sites, they are only marked if there are indeed Kami there. Not all boulders are marked. Even otherwise, it is true that Shinto considers that all things have an essence/spirit and many locations and many natural entities like trees and rivers are indeed Gods or residences of the Gods or embodiments of the Gods.)[/color]



[color="#800080"]<photo>[/color]



The Meoto-Iwa representing Susano-o and Kushinada-hime on Mt. Yakumo take this a step further by having a whole family of rocks, including one to represent the fruits of their union.

[color="#800080"][BTW, Yaegaki Shrine enshrines not just Father Susano-o and Mother Inata-Hime but also their Baby son, first of their babies.][/color]



[color="#0000FF"]<map pointing out all the shrines to the Divine Pair/Family, where they dwell>[/color]



This marriage between the God of the Seas (and then some) and one of the earthly kami who populated the land below the heavens was arranged in a rather human-like way. They had wedding preparations to do (which took place at Oomori Shrine), and Kushinada-hime required clean water when we was giving birth to their first child (which is why she chose Kawabe Shrine).

troutfactory.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/shimane-part-i-at-yaegaki-jinja/

Quote:Glimpses of Unfamiliar Japan includes a chapter about Yaegaki-jinja that reveals the meaning of the shrine’s name by way of the famous story about how Susanoo rescued Kushinada from the Yamato no Orochi, a giant snake with eight heads and eight tails. “Yaegaki” can literally be translated as ‘eight-fold fence’ or ‘fences within fences,’ a name that references the device devised by Susanoo to defeat the Eight-Forked Serpent. Hearn retells this story based on what has been written in the Kojiki, but here I’ll include the shorter version of this story that is found in the Nihon Shoki (as translated by William George Aston):



Then Sosa no wo no Mikoto [that would be Susanoo] descended from Heaven and proceeded to the head-waters of the River Hi, in the province of Izumo. At this time he heard a sound of weeping at the head-waters of the river, and he went in search of the sound. He found there an old man and an old woman. Between them was set a young girl, whom they were caressing and lamenting over. Sosa no wo no Mikoto asked them, saying: “Who are ye and why do ye lament thus?” The answer was: “I am an Earthly Deity, and my name is Ashi-nadzuchi. My wife’s name is Te-nadzuchi. This girl is our daughter, and her name is Kushinada-hime. The reason of our weeping is that formerly we had eight children, daughters. But they have been devoured year after year by an eight-forked serpent and now the time approaches for this girl to be devoured. There is no means of escape for her, and therefore do we grieve.” His-Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness said: “If that is so, wilt thou give me thy daughter?” He replied, and said: “I will comply with thy behest and give her to thee.” Therefore His Swift-Impetuous-Male-Augustness on the spot changed Kushinada-hime into a many-toothed close-comb which he stuck in the august knot of his hair. Then he made Ashi-nadzuchi and Te-nadzuchi to brew eight-fold sake, to make eight cupboards, in each of them to set a tub filled with sake, and so to await its coming. When the time came, the serpent actually appeared. It had an eight-forked head and an eight-forked tail; its eyes were red, like the winter-cherry; and on its back firs and cypresses were growing. As it crawled it extended over a space of eight hills and eight valleys. Now when it came and found the sake, each head drank up one tub, and it became drunk and fell asleep. Then Sosa no wo no Mikoto drew the ten-span sword which he wore and chopped the serpent into small pieces. When he came to the tail, the edge of his sword was slightly notched, and he therefore split open the tail and examined it. In the inside there was a sword. This is the sword which is called Kusa-nagi no tsurugi.



Though this account of the legend is more concise, it does leave out the all-important fence. [color="#0000FF"]According to the Kojiki, the sake tubs were placed inside a fence that had eight gates. After the serpent drank the sake it fell asleep with a head in each gate, clearly making for easier decapitation.



The Kusanagi no Tsurugi, the sword which Susanoo discovered in the serpent’s tail, is said to be enshrined at Nagoya’s Atsuta-jingu, though since it is one the three sacred imperial treasures no one is allowed to see it except for the emperor and a few select Shinto priests.[/color]

hellojapan.asia/en/travel-guide/yaegakijinja-shrine.html

Quote:In the legend “Yamata-no-Orochi”, after slaying the eight-headed serpent, the deity Susanoo and his new bride, Kushi-inada-Hime, made this shrine their home and it has therefore come to be known as the shrine of happy marriages. In the shrine grounds you can find the “Mirror Pond”, which Kushi-inada-Hime used as a mirror. There is a custom of placing a coin on a piece of paper and floating it on the surface of the pond. The length of time the paper takes to sink is said to signify your luck in love.

More Japanese tourist sites:

+ hero-travel-spt.jp/chugoku_Shimane_yaegaki_shrine.html

+ city.matsue.shimane.jp/kankou/vr/en/kaisetu/yaegaki.html

+ jnto.go.jp/eng/indepth/exotic/JapanesQue/1110/enmusubi.html - general listing of famous shrines/sites for "en-musubi (marriage)" blessings including a section on Yaegaki

+ visitshimane.com/?p=2806 - Hinomisaki Shrine: a temple to both Susano-o and his sister Amaterasu, where they worship the evening Sun with rituals (beautiful pictures)



d. Symbola at Yaegaki shrine

+ photos of the important sacred symbola: culturejapan.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-2.html

+ wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaegaki_Shrine

Quote:Yaegaki Shrine

Yaegaki Shrine.Yaegaki Shrine (八重垣神社, Yaegaki Jinja?), formerly known as Sakusa Shrine (佐久佐神社, Sakusa Jinja?), is a Shinto shrine in Matsue, Shimane Prefecture, Japan.



Kagaminoike of Yaegaki ShrineHistory[edit]

The gods Susanoo and princess Kushinada are enshrined here. This shrine is dedicated to marriage and matchmaking. The people who come to this shrine often pray for a marriage partner, good marital relations, pregnancy and healthy child-bearing. In keeping with this theme, several large wooden phalluses can be found on the shrine's grounds.



According to legend, Susanoo came across a couple who had lost seven of their eight daughters to an eight-headed serpent, the Yamata-no-orochi (lit., "Eight-Pronged-Serpent"). The serpent was due to return for the last daughter, Princess Kushinada, when Susanoo arrived. Through his ingenuity, Susanoo slew the serpent and won Kushinada's hand in marriage.



The Yaegaki Shrine was erected in the spot where Susanoo built a house for himself and Kushinada to live.



At the shrine, visitors can see the Mirror Pond. One can place a paper on the water's surface and a divining coin on the paper; the amount of time the coin stays afloat on the paper is supposed to indicate the fate of one's marriage.



In the shrine's treasure house is an ancient depiction of the enshrined Princess Inata, painted on Japanese Cypress. It is believed to be the oldest shrine wall mural in Japan. [1]

e. On Sake

As seen in the bit on Izumo Taisha, Sake is the drink of the Kami (like Soma or Amritam the drink of the Devas, etc, etc). Once the human Japanese learnt to make Sake, they naturally offered it back to their Gods as libation. Sake is generally the most important libation offered to the Kamis, used in all festivals. Sake is both the blessing of the Gods to the Shintos, and the offering to the Gods that gets blessed. The offering to the Gods and subsequent partaking of the sake is sort of a mutual partaking of the sacred liquid. (Same as libation and prasadam in other heathenisms.)



Better yet, here:



eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=330

Quote:Miki

Rice wine (sake) offered to the kami, an indispensable element of the food offerings known as shinsen. Usually referred to as omiki, or alternately as shinshu, the term miki is a combination of two characters, the honorific mi and the character for "wine" (ki). As such, it originally derived from a term for wine offered to someone in an exalted position. Ancient documents include instances of miki being called miwa, and the deity Miwa no kami is thus famous as the kami with jurisdiction over the production of sake. Likewise, the term kushi is found in poetry from the Kojiki as another name for miki, while in Okinawa, one finds the term ugusu. This word is thought to derive from the ancient view of the "auspicious" (kizui) effect of sake, while another theory links the word to kusuri or "medicine." All these examples demonstrate that miki has been considered indispensable to kami worship from the age of myth until the present. [color="#0000FF"]It is believed that by drinking miki together with the kami to whom it is offered the celebrants experience a non-everyday state of mind and body, and thus deepen their communion with the kami.[/color] Miki is found in numerous varieties, including white rice wine and black rice wine (shiroki and kuroki), unrefined rice wine (nigorizake), refined rice wine (sumisake or seishu), and sweet rice wine (hitoyozake). Several methods of brewing likewise exist, although [color="#0000FF"]examples include a strong "wine of eight-fold brewing" (yashioori no sake)[/color], and another "overnight" type of wine called reishu, fermented by chewing rice. The ritual offerings of certain localities feature kinds of miki so thick they can be lifted with chopsticks. See also shiroki, kuroki.

f. Origins of Japanese Poetry

examples.yourdictionary.com/japans-oldest-anthology-poem.html

Quote:Japan's Oldest Anthology Poem

[color="#0000FF"]The first poem to go into an anthology was attributed to Susanoo, who was known as a kami. In Japanese, the word kami means a god. Therefore, the poetry is tied in with the religion of the area. Susanoo was the younger brother of Amaterasu. Susanoo married Princes Kushinada in the Izumo province.[/color] When they were married, he came up with the poem. The poem goes as follows:



"Yaukumo tatsu/Izumo yaegaki/Tsuma-gomi ni/Yaegaki tsukuru/Sono yaegaki wo."



This poem, along with several others, was put into the Nihonshoki. The Koijiki is regarded as the first piece of written history of the Japanese people; however, the Nihonshoki is the first to include a number of poetic readings, which is why it is treated as more of an anthological than the Nihonshoki.

miya-travelog.tumblr.com/post/373946266/yaegaki-shrine-next-shrine-is

Quote:Yaegaki Shrine



(八重垣神社) :





Next shrine is Yaegaki shrine in which Susano-oh god and his princess Kushinada are enshrined.



This shrine is dedicated to marriage and matchmaking (:



The people who come to this shrine often pray for a marriage partner, good marital relations, pregnancy and healthy child-bearing.



And the shrine is also dedicated to poem and literature. Because here’s the place where the oldest tanka (Japanese Poety) was written.



“Yakumo-Tatsu Izumo Yaegaki Tumagomini Yaegaki Tukuru Sono Yaegaki wo”



'Massively rising clouds made high walls in Izumo.



And the walls protect my wife, my children and child-bearing safety.



High walls, made from massively rising clouds.’

(Various forms of classical/traditional Japanese poetry are to have derived from this)





takeit-home.livejournal.com/41301.html

(containing a translation to lyrics on Susano-o sung by a named vocaloid=modern Japanese computer-generated voice used in a type of synthetic pop music form)

The notes on translation say something interesting:

Quote:{This song was REALLY REALLY HARD, but there's extra notes.}

{Based on Shinto mythology, the god Susano'o defeats the Yamata no Orochi (8-headed snake, hence "his heads falls over 8 gates").}

{Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi is the sword he gets from Orochi's tail. It was special because it was made of iron, and the slaying of Orochi [color="#0000FF"](=mastery of flood control(=mastery of water))[/color] allowed people to weld iron. The sword Susano'o used against Orochi, the Totsuka no Tsurugi (though this song changed it to Totsuka no Ken for some reason) was made of bronze, so when he was cutting up Orochi, the Totsuka no Tsurugi bent from the iron in the Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi. Get it?}

{Lady of the Beautiful River is the eighth daughter that was to be sacrificed to Orochi. The river itself is probably the Hii River, but it didn't say it straight out, so we didn't want to put that.}

[color="#800080"](Traditionally, it is indeed regarded as the Hii river)[/color]

{The verse with the countless fences, it's Susano'o's waka. Said to be the oldest poem in Japan.}

(Will get back to this last bit later)



I'm not sure whether Orochi itself was a deity in this case. But because the PIE trope generally expects a serpent/dragon "god" (see final wacky line quoted in previous post), and because other cases in E Asia and other parts of the world do often involve a serpent or dragon that is a deity, often a water deity, thought I'd mention:



Suijin (Water Kami) are a special class of Kami found in various waters in Japan. They're usually Dragons (similar to Daoism), Snakes, Turtles, Fish or other water dwelling creature, some are more supernatural (special water spirits).

Not guessing whether Orochi was itself one, but it bears remarking that all waters (streams, lakes, rivers) in Japan apparently have presiding Kamis. As I understand, sometimes the body of water is the body of the Kami, at other times it's the residence, at other times the spirit of the body of water is the Kami.

Post 3/ Korea, China part 1



So:

1. Japan's Shinto Kami Susano-o

- at Hii River, defeated snake that was yearly devouring (Kami) female.

- snake thought to cause flood. In subduing it, Susano-o is thought to have stopped flood.

- Susano-o continued to do further important things thereafter (get married and take up residence, have children)

- local geography in Shimane, Sanin is replete with shrines to the various events in the life of not just Orochi but especially Susano-o

- local geography in the relevant region (Shimane, Sanin) specifically alludes to the serpent Orochi's anatomy - including its "8-headed/tailed" nature

Quote:One of the theories ... about the origins of this legend is that the anatomy of the Yamata-no-Orochi was based on the mountains and the offshoots of the Hii River. It’s threat to kamikind was likely based on the flooded river’s threat to humankind.

Another [color="#0000FF"]de-mythologising[/color] (de-deifying rather) version - a common (yet not always necessarily modern, at least not in China say) tactic applied to heathen religions - on Susano-o vs Orochi reads as follows. Note it's predictably written by a [color="#0000FF"]foreigner[/color]:



cultureinjapan.info/4000/4013.html

Quote:It is believed that the terrible snake of mythology was the many rivers, which caused much distress for the people through floods. Susanoo, an engineer, helped control the floods with dikes and dams. The Red River, which was thought to be red from Yamata no Orochi's blood, is the source of iron sand that is the material used to make the famous Japanese swords, as well as knives and agricultural tools---a great discovery! This iron sand, caused the river to be red, and it is still being used by local steel com-panies!

After killing the terrible snake, Susanoo and his bride went to Yaegaki Shrine, which is dedicated to Inada, to live. Then he moved to Daito, in Shimane Prefecture. Later, he became the ruler of the Land of Darkness, the gate to which is in Higashi Izumo.

There's no mention that I can find of Susanoo being actually recorded as a human let alone engineer anywhere (nor that Susano-o's fight with Orochi represent flooding of Japanese rivers in general, but the specific river system of the region he was in). Which makes it modern de-mythicising/de-heathenising speculation in Japan's case. However, it is useful to paste the above in light of the case of Erlang Shen of Daoism somewhere further below.





2. Korea



archive.is/S1YC

Quote:Gimneyong Cave

Neighboring with Manjang cave is Gimnyeong Sagul, meaning the serpent cave, got its name from the sinuous form of the passage, which is as large as that in Manjang Cave. The floor is covered with carbonate sands blown from the nearby beaches. [color="#0000FF"]According to the legend, the natives built an alter and sacrifice a teenage girl in the belief that the huge serpent living in this cave would not harm the village and people. When a new governor arrived on the island and learned of this custom. He ordered the people to set up another altar but this time with wine and food. When the reptile appeared the governor stabbed the monster with a spear. Mortally wounded, the serpent disappeared into the sea.[/color]

blog.korea.net/?p=14458

See image: blog.korea.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/jeju_gimnyeongsagullegend-e1357498547259.jpg

Quote:[color="#800080"][img caption][/color] Sculpture of the Gimnyeong Sagul legend. Photo courtesy of Korea Cultural Heritage Foundation

Gimnyeong Sagul cave is famous for its legend of a giant serpent that would venture out of its den and terrorize the villagers if a virginal sacrifice wasn’t given every year. One day a new district judge killed the serpent but was met with raining blood on his way back and perished. This legend reflects the reverence for the snake, an untouchable being not to be judged by mankind.

- giant snake

- demanded (yearly again) virginal sacrifice

- would "terrorize" otherwise. No mention of flood or drought as punishment though

- giant snake lived in cave. (Like the dragon in the Italian folktale concerning princess Fantaghiro.)

- hero lures it with wine and food - like Indra used "soma, wine and food" on Trishiras (?). But no intimation whether the Korean hero got the Korean snake drunk and bloated though, the edibles just seemed to be a trap to lure it elsewhere, where he could spear it. The Japanese God Susano-o actually got his snake adversary drunk. And Indra was supposed to have given the 3-headed one the soma etc as well. Hmm. Maybe bait is just common. After all, people often put out milk for snakes (in snakey regions) to feed them and the serpents go straight for it. Seems SOP for attracting them.

- a human hero slays it (not restraining it), BUT, interestingly - and a major departure - the Korean hero is punished in return and dies. Maybe the price of not being a God. If this too will next be 'supposed'=encroached by PIE-ists to have been a PIE-influenced tale of their Chaoskamp where Order triumphs over Chaos at last, is the expectation that the hero remain victoriously alive at the end, instead of dying in sinister fashion himself?

- also interesting: the Giant snake's own death resulted in the raining of blood on the human who then dies (does the blood burn him to death, or is he drowned in the rain of blood? Doesn't say. But the verb rain is interesting as it's the only - but almost tennuous - connection to some sort of localised climate control in the snake)



Anyway, it is obviously not just a giant snake, but also a magical giant snake, hence "raining blood" in successful vengeance - even after it's dead.

IIRC Greece's Medusa's snakey head - even when severed - could drip deadly blood that ravaged the soil on which it fell. Did Perseus' bag containing the head not drip some drops onto areas of Libya turning them into a dry wasteland with poisonous scorpions where the drops fell? (Or something - sorry, poor memory and may be getting my reading confused with Ray Harryhousen's stopmotion of "Clash of the Titans" from childhood) But someone, QUICK, claim this "feature" for jeebus I mean PIE too. In medieval [christian] European narratives, the blood of 'dragons' are supposed to be poisonous still.



[[color="#0000FF"]Confirmation concerning Medusa:[/color] The scorpions may be modern Harryhousen's spin, but both the Greek Argonautica and Roman Metamorphoses confirms that dangerous Libyan snakes were seen as having sprung from the blood of Medusa's severed head that dripped onto the land as Perseus was carrying the head over it.]



The cave is supposed to be in Jeju. Unless I'm misremembering, Jeju is supposed to have been a stronghold of native Korean religion. At least still in those times.





3. China - 4 examples



a. Daoist Erlang Shen (directional warrior God in mandalas, note Shen=God) took on several dragons (his trait) among which he famously subdued a Dragon that was a River God causing a flood and demanding sacricifes to appease it.



Don't need the whole life story in detail. The relevant narrative is:

Quote:Erlang Shen (二郎神), named Yang Jian (杨戬), is a Chinese God with a third true-seeing eye in the middle of his forehead.

ErLang is depicted carrying a three-pointed and double edge-sword and has a Celestial Hound that follows him around.



According to the “Story about Li Bing and his son in harnessing the rivers”, After being appointed governor of Sichuan by King Zhao of the State of Qin. Li Bing diverts water from the two rivers of Chengdu to irrigate thousand hectares of farmlands. His son ErLang helps him to build water control systems to prevent flood. Based on a historical record says, “The Erlang Temple of Guan-Kou in Sichuan was established to commemorate LiBing’s merits in opening up wells, building bridges, irrigation of the agricultural lands, developing the Guanxian area and Chengdu plain, and increasing agricultural production.



Here is another legend about ErLang with his seven friends vanquishing an evil dragon. On their journey ErLang and his seven friends approached a thatched cottage by a river near the county [color="#0000FF"]town of Guanxian[/color], they heard someone crying inside. They entered and found an elderly woman wailing for her youngest grandson who was to be taken away as a sacrificial offering for [color="#0000FF"]the river god-an evil dragon[/color]. Astonished, ErLang seek his father advice on how to capture the monster. LiBing taught him a strategy, on the sacrificial procession ErLang holding his three-pointed and double-edged sword in hand, went into the River God Temple with his seven friends, and hid themselves behind the altar.



After a while, the dragon descends with a gust of strong wind and torrential rain into the temple to snatch the sacrifice. ErLang and his mates jumped out immediately and fight it.

Defeated the dragon flee out of the temple. As planned by LiBing the villagers beat their drums and gongs to emit loud sounds to petrify the dragon. This scared the dragon who fled into the river. ErLang and his mates pursued the dragon by diving into the river. The dragon was finally captured.



The old woman who had been grievously crying for her grandson gave ErLang a chain to express her gratitude for saving his grandson. ErLang tied the dragon to a stone post of the [color="#0000FF"]Vanquishing Dragon Temple[/color] and had it detained in a deep pool. [color="#0000FF"]From that day onwards, the area was free from flood.[/color]

After re-iterating much of the same, Wacky has a few more cases involving Erlang vs floods and river dragons:



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlang_Shen

Just the excerpts on floods, dragons (or dragon princesses), thunder, river god

Quote:Erlang Shen (二郎神), or Erlang is a Chinese God with a third truth-seeing eye in the middle of his forehead.



Er-lang Shen may be a deified version of several semi-mythical folk heroes who help regulate China's torrential floods, dating variously from the Qin, Sui and Jin dynasties **

(Note that he is a Taoist God - not Buddhist - and even wacky confirms this by displaying the Taoist symbol on the page.)



Li Erlang[edit]

Of the various identifications of Erlang Shen the most common is as Li Erlang, the second son of Li Bing, the engineer behind the Dujiangyan Irrigation System.[1]



According to Story About Li Bing and His Son in Harnessing the Rivers, in Records of Guansian, Li Erlang assisted his father in the construction of the complex irrigation system that prevented the Min River from flooding and irrigated the Chengdu Plain. In thanks for the prosperity that this brought to them the local people elevated the father and son to gods and dedicated the Erwang Temple to their honour.



Legend states that Governor Li Bing sent his son out to discover the source of the flooding. He spent a year exploring the county without success. One day whilst sheltering in a cave he encountered a tiger which he slew and seven hunters who had witnessed this bravery agreed to join him on his quest.



The group finally came to a cottage on the outskirts of Guanxian[disambiguation needed]. From within they heard the sound of an old woman crying. The woman was Grandma Wang and she told them that her grandson was to be sacrificed to an evil dragon who was the local river god. Li Erlang reported this to his father who devised a plan to capture the dragon.



The eight friends hid in the River God Temple and jumped out on the dragon when it arrived to claim its offering. The dragon fled to river pursued by Li Erlang who eventually captured it. Grandma Wang arrived with an iron chain and the dragon was secured in the pool below the Fulonguan Temple freeing the region from floods.



[color="#0000FF"]Another legend tells of Li Erlang suppressing a fire dragon that lived in the mountains north of Dujiangyan by climbing to the top of Mount Yulei, turning into a giant and building a dam with 66 mountains then filling it with water from Dragon Pacifying Pool.[2][/color]



Yang Jian[edit]Many legends, novels as well as television series often describe Erlang as Yang Jian, a nephew of the Jade Emperor. According to an ancient text Erlang Baojuan, Yang Jian's mother was the Jade Emperor's sister who was imprisoned under Mount Tao, because she violated the Heavenly Rules by marying a human named Yang Tianyou. Many years later her son Yang Jian cleaved Mount Tao using his axe, hoping to set his mother free. Unfortunately ten sun deities (the Jade Emperor's sons) arrived and killed her. The angry Yang Jian kill nine of the sun deities, but was advised to release the last sun by Dragon Princess of West Sea. Later he married the Dragon Princess and canonized as deity.





Other Identifications[edit]

Erlang Shen is also identified with Zhao Yun, a hermit who lived on Mount Qingcheng and was appointed by Sui Dynasty Emperor Yangdi as Governor of Jiazhou. Zhao Yu is said to have set forth with 1000 men to defeat a flood dragon that had been tormenting the area. Upon reaching the river Zhao Yu dived into the water with his double-edged sword and emerged holding the dragon’s head, Following his death, according to the Chronicle of Changshu County, the region was once again plagued by flood and he was seen riding a white horse amidst the swirling currents. The locals built a temple enshrining Zhao Yu as the God Erlang and the floods were subdued.[1]



Deng Xia is said to have been a general under Erlang who surpassed his predecessors in valour and defeated a flood dragon receiving the title Erlang Shen and a temple in his honour at Zhongqingli in Hangzhou.[1]





As Li Bing

As Li Bing, the first hydraulic engineer in the Shu area, was the hero who stopped the flooding of the Min River by constructing the Dujiangyan. This somehow led to Li Bing being turned into a folk hero who defeated a river god in order to save his prefecture from being flooded, where this story had then associated him as a new river god that protected the local people in the area from floods. However a discrepancy comes up that even though Li Bing/Erlang was known as Guankou Shen, the river that he is associated with is in Qianwei and not Guankou. Another discrepancy is that Li Erlang had never appeared in any of the tales related to stopping the Min River. The first appearance of Li Erlang was in Zhishui ji 治水記 by Li Ying 李膺 of the Liang 梁 Dynasty.



Historically Li Bing was conferred an official title until the Five Dynasties period under the rule of the Shu kingdom. He rose to political power when the great flood that occurred on the twenty-sixth day of the eighth month in 920 CE, was reported to the emperor by Daoist Du Guangting 杜光庭.



As a filial deity[edit]

In Chinese belief he was a filial son that entered the Chinese underworld to save his deceased mother from torment and will punish unfilial children by striking them with thunder strike as a punishment, hence the Chinese parent saying "Being smitten by lightning for being unfilial and ungrateful" towards unruly children. A warring deity, he wields a Sān Jiān Liǎng Rèn Dāo (三尖两刃刀 - "three-pointed, double-edged blade") and always has his faithful Xiàotiān quǎn (啸天犬 - "Howling Celestial Dog") by his side. This dog also helps him subdue evil spirits.[citation needed

Erlang Shen - i.e. the God - is also famous from the "Saving Mother/Lotus Lantern" narrative where he was the one who disapproved of his sister (IIRC Goddess [San]Sheng Mu?) marrying a human, and imprisoned her. Her son then saves her - and is taught Tai Chi by the Daoist Thunder God to help him on his way. The son is initially thwarted in his quest to rescue his Mother by her brother, Erlang Shen.

This mirrors Erlang's own case where his Mother was a Goddess (sister of Jade Emperor) and his dad a human and which match was initially disapproved of.



Daoism's reference to Erlang Shen in rituals is to the God (Shen) not historical/human heroes.



The mentioned discrepancies of localities and many instances of different persons (Li Bing, Erlang son of LiBing, Deng Xia, hermit Zhao Yun) may be explained with various reasons: othres viewed as incarnation for the same feat of stopping floods (with or without subduing flood dragons), or viewed as fulfilling Erlang Shen's role, or after the flood is subdued people build a temple to honour the God Erlang Shen himself again as the ultimate benefactor in success in warding off floods and simultaneously dedicate it as a memorial to the human heroes (the way lots of restored temples to the Olympic Gods got dedication plaques commemorating Emperor Julian for his effort in the restoration), or some of the instances may merely be instances of de-mythicising attempts because China explicitly went through a period of de-mythicising of sacred narratives. So it's hard to tell what was merely later attempts at humanising existing/earlier Taoist Gods.



E.g. the wacky page on the earlier-mentioned Gong Gong admits



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gong_Gong

Quote:"Gong Gong" is sometimes translated as Minister of Works (e.g., in the first chapters of the Shangshu). In this attempt at demythologization, he joins other dubious "ministers", such as Long the Dragon.

Anyway, what is noticeable in the relevant narrative is that:

- Here, the River God is a (Chinese) dragon that unleashes torrential rains that flood the river. It demands human sacrifices in order for it to keep the floods in check

- Erlang (with companions) restrains the dragon and the floods cease

- Once more, specific geographies are mentioned in the relevant instance. Specific shrine name Vanquishing Dragon Temple/Fulonguan Temple

- Another case is of this Erlang also "suppressing a fire dragon that lived in the mountains north of Dujiangyan by climbing to the top of Mount Yulei, turning into a giant and building a dam with 66 mountains then filling it with water from Dragon Pacifying Pool"

Is fire dragon a reference to (a dragon causing) drought?





[color="#0000FF"]Generally in China, the 4 to 5 primary Dragons (Dragon Kings) preside over storms, floods, rains etc (weather). There are of course many more Dragons in Daoism: including River Dragons, who - as Gods embodying the river - are viewed as responsible for the floods caused by that river.

So the fact that a God/hero has to go off to prevent further suffering owing to such conditions repeats in narratives of China (and Japan and Korea).[/color]



b. Nezha

"Nezha vs the Dragon Kings" (from "Nezha Nao Hai"* by a Daoist writer based on Daoist tradition) shows Daoist God Nezha prevent the excess torrential rains and flooding that was going on by restraining the Dragon King in charge of this as well as the other directional Dragon Kings. The Chinese cartoon was linked at IF somewhere, but the start of the movie depicts the Dragon Kings of the seas causing floods and insisting to be appeased by "human sacrifices" and not accepting animal sacrifices*. This is when Nezha intervenes on behalf of humanity and restores the balance.



(*But note: the Dragon Kings of the Seas/Directions are actually benign. The Nezha narrative is actually about floods/dangerous levels of excess rain for which the Dragon Kings - who are in charge of these things - were therefore held responsible.)



Once more notice that the narrative concerns:

- humans suffering from floods and sacrificing children to appease the Dragons in charge

- Daoist God Nezha restrains the Dragons and restores the balance, no more floods

Post 4/ China part 2, and Ghana



c. "Yu the Great defeats Xianglui 9 headed serpent who works for Gong Gong"



This is the example that the opening excerpt on wacky gave for the Chinese case of the allegedly PIE allegedly "chaoskampf".



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_the_Great



says that he's remembered for dredging and irrigation. I.e. stopped floods. Could be de-mythicisation of his fight with the mult-headed serpent. But the page still admits:

Quote:Yu was supposed to have killed Gong Gong's minister Xiangliu, a nine-headed snake monster.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiangliu

Quote:Xiangliu (Chinese: 相柳; pinyin: Xiāngliǔ) or Xiangyou is a nine-headed snake monster encountered in Chinese mythology. According to the Shan Hai Jing, Xiangliu was a minister of Gong Gong. Later Xiangliu was killed by Yu the Great. An oral version of the Xiangliu myth was collected as late from Sichuan as late as 1983, in which Xiangliu is depicted as a nine-headed dragon, responsible for floods and other harm.



A minister of the snake-like water deity Gong Gong, Xiangliu devastated the ecology everywhere he went, leaving nothing but gullies and marshes, devoid of animal life. Eventually, Xiangliu was killed by Yu the Great whose other labors included ending the Great Flood (China) (or else he was killed, according to one modern version, by Nüwa, after being defeated by Zhurong), but so poisonously virulent was the blood of Xiangliu that the soil which it soaked could no longer grow grains. [1]

About that last line: do they mean like the blood from multi-snake-headed Medusa? Or the much closer case of the blood from snakey Korean giant magical snake of Gimnyeong Sagul/Serpent Cave in Jeju, Korea?

OR it's just a common conclusion:

Many snakes are poisonous. Next to the weather/water control they're thought to exercise by a myriad ancient communities on the planet, it's not surprising that the blood that results from their severed heads is assumed to be poisonous as well and that this will therefore poison the land into barrenness or worse.

Diverse people seemed to often enough come to those very conclusions - independently, without the need to be instructed by PIE-ism.



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gong_Gong

Quote:Gong Gong

Gong Gong (Chinese: 共工; pinyin: Gònggōng), also known as Kanghui, is a Chinese water god or sea monster who is often depicted in Chinese mythology, folktales, and religious stories as having red hair and the tail of a serpent (or dragon).[1] He is often seen as destructive and is blamed for various cosmic catastrophes. In all accounts, Gonggong ends up being killed or sent into exile, usually after losing a struggle with another major deity.





In Literature

Gonggong is known from the late Warring States period (before 221 BCE). Gong Gong appears in the ancient "Heavenly Questions" (Tianwen) poem of the Chu Ci, where he is blamed for knocking the earth's axis off center, causing it to tilt to the southeast and the sky to tilt to the northwest.[2] This axial tilt is used to explain why the rivers of China generally flow to the southeast, especially the Yangzi River and the Yellow River, and why the sun, moon, and stars move towards the northwest. Literature from the Han dynasty becomes much more detailed regarding Gonggong.



Other stories

The great floods are said to be the responsibility of Gonggong and his associate Xiang Yao (alternately, Xiangliu Chinese: 相繇), who has nine heads and the body of a snake.

[color="#800080"](A duo to blame)[/color]



In Chinese mythology, Gong Gong was ashamed that he lost the fight with Zhu Rong, the Chinese god of fire, to claim the throne of Heaven. In a fit of rage he smashed his head against Buzhou Mountain (不周山), a pillar holding up the sky, greatly damaging it and causing the sky to tilt towards the northwest and the earth to shift to the southeast, which caused great floods and suffering.



The goddess Nüwa (女媧) cut off the legs of the giant turtle Ao and used them in place of the fallen pillar, ending the floods and suffering; she was, however, unable to fully correct the tilted sky and earth and alter their effects on the sun, moon, stars, and rivers in China.



"Gong Gong" is sometimes translated as Minister of Works (e.g., in the first chapters of the Shangshu). In this attempt at demythologization, he joins other dubious "ministers", such as Long the Dragon.

At least this one is cosmic (and rather interesting for several points). But, it's not one that PIE is making claims on - PIE invoked Yu vs Xiangliu. So can leave GongGong. Plus I've seen the similar notions in a lot of populations (incl. outside the reach of IE. Some cosmic creature - swimming in the sea of space/space sea creature - knocking the world off kilter and causing environmental disasters is a very common conclusion.)

On a less drastic scale, I recall children's bedtime story books having lots of stories from China wherein 'dragons' caused cosmic problems (like swallowing = eclipsing the sun or moon etc and the stars in the night sky*) and thereby causing floods (since the moon controls the tides anyway, the blame for droughts will be directly attributed to such swallowing actions).

Don't know why populations aren't allowed to see their own native creatures (e.g. Chinese Longs) forming in the sky and therewith causing environmental disasters, and have to instead bow down to alien alleged IE populations and thank them for general imagination.



* You know, the way Rahu and Ketu eclipsed Sun, moon, stars. Common enough view, nothing PIE about this either, BTW: comets/eclipses in Africa have been explained the same way (along with fears common to various populations that, after an eclipses or upon a meteor shower etc, possibly-cataclyptic disasters will ensue, the King will suddenly die/the guard will change. Generally seen as prophesying "great change".)





d. China's (Li Ji the) Serpent Slayer [color="#0000FF"]AND a Ghanan example from Africa[/color]

(Li Ji's example is famous. Found even in feminist anthologies of fairy tales from around the world. :cough: Serpent Slayer and Other Stories :cough



Note the following also showcases an African example of a Snake God



colorq.org/articles/article.aspx?d=lore&x=snake

Quote:Soninke and Chinese legends of the Slayer of the Snake God

The Chinese recorded the legend Li Ji Slays The Snake in Sou Shen Ji, a collection of supernatural tales. Li Ji was said to have lived in the Warring States era (475-221 BCE).1 She was a teenage girl who lived in a part of China where people sacrificed a twelve-to-thirteen year old girl yearly to a snake god. The priests believed that the meal of human flesh would avert the wrath of the giant snake, which lived in a cave and came out to plague the people. One year, Li Ji volunteered to be the sacrifice against the will of her parents. But unknown to any, she went to the lair of the snake, taking some fragrant rice and a hunting dog with her. She placed the rice outside the snake's lair, and then hid herself. [color="#0000FF"]The snake came out, attracted by the fragrant smell of rice.[/color] Its eyes were as big as saucers, but Li Ji was not afraid and set the hound on it. While the snake was busy defending itself from the dog, Li Ji attacked it from behind, hacking at it with her sword until it died. She went into the cave and found the remains of the previous nine sacrificial victims. The snake was no god at all, but a mere brute which devoured humans. The king of the land heard of Li Ji's courage and invited her to become his queen.2



The Soninke of West Africa also tell a story about single individual defying tradition and public opinion to stand up to a snake god. In the West African legend, the snake was Bida, a god of the ancient [color="#FF0000"]Ghana[/color] Empire. It demanded an annual offering of one maiden in exchange for the prosperity of the wealthy kingdom. One year the maiden Sia (or Siya) was chosen to be the sacrifice. Her betrothed husband Mamadou (Amadou or Maadi in some other tellings of the story), an army officer, fought the snake to save her. The snake had [color="#FF0000"]hydra-like properties of regenerating its severed heads[/color] but the officer eventually defeated the deity. [color="#FF0000"]The Ghana Empire, bereft of its guardian deity, declined soon after.[/color]3



The superficial similarities between the Chinese and Soninke stories are quite clear, but there are also fundamental differences:



•The Soninke snake was an actual god; the Chinese one was just an animal.

•The Soninke tale was set at the time of the decline of the Ghana Empire, around the 11th century.4 The Chinese one was set more than a thousand years earlier.

•The Chinese sacrificial 'victim' saved herself. The Soninke sacrificial victim was saved by her fiance.

•Li Ji's deed was hailed as heroic by her community. Mamadou's deed, however, went unappreciated by the Soninkes, who saw it as the beginning of their misfortunes.



For a brief history of Ancient Ghana, see BBC World Service: The Story of Africa: Ancient Ghana.



The myth of Sia and the snake has inspired modern works of fiction, including the play "The Legend of Wagadu as seen by Sia Yatabéré" by Mauritanian playwright Moussa Diagana, and "Sia, The Dream of the Python", a film loosely based on Diagana's play.5

- giant snake in the Chinese folktale lived in a cave. Is neutralised by the heroine.

This has even more similarities than the Korean narrative had with the Italian folktale "Cave of the golden rose/Gorge of the sainted dragon" [about princess Fantaghiro]. The golden rose turned out to be the gullet of the Dragon that lived in the cave in the gorge. At her birth, the king, sick of having only daughters, wanted to sacrifice his latest daughter to the Dragon at its cave to end the disastrous spell of only-daughters (he needed a son to succeed him as he was at war). He's prevented from sacrificing his infant daughter by the female spirit of the forest. Later the princess grows up, dresses like a man so she can defeat the neighbouring king in a duel as was prophesied (the 2 kingdoms were at war "since time immemorial"). Instead the neighbouring king invites her to visit the Gorge of the dragon, since he suspects she's a girl he'd once seen. The Dragon at the cave is supposed to eat only women and kill all men. The princess dupes the dragon - who can't tell what gender she is as she's entered straight into his throat, and so can't decide whether he should eat her or kill her. She tickles it into sneezing, which causes the cave opening to be closed off therewith - with the dragon stuck in there - whle she herself is safely blown out of the cave alive. (The enemy king is none the wiser about her gender either. The tale doesn't stop with her restrainign the dragon in its den however. Eventually she beats the 'enemy' king in the arranged duel and as punishment for his losing/his kingdom losing and to secure lasting peace between the two kingdoms, her dad marries her off to the defeated king, who's no longer the enemy now, and the two kingdoms are joined.)



The similarities of heroine defeating a giant snake/dragon living in a cave that eats women may be mere coincidence [yet it wouldn't ever be considered coincidence if it concerned a "PIE trope" of course]. In any case, there's no need to pretend that this folktale travelled to China, sooner the other way around. (Even the Cinderella fairy tale was originally a Chinese folktale - and is recorded in China a whole 1000 years before the earliest documented Cinderella story in the west or ME. Not to mention the whole "tiniest feet" thing only ever made sense in a Chinese setting.)



- [color="#0000FF"]ADDED: Missed this before, but Li Ji lures the Chinese Giant Snake into position using rice. (As opposed to rice-wine that was used to lure the Japanese Orochi to the trap.) Again, the Chinese snake is attracted by the fragrant smell of the rice. Presumably Orochi was attracted by the fragrant smell of rice-wine. It was then that Li-Ji and and her dog then set about attacking the duped man-eating Chinese Serpent.[/color]



- Both Chinese and Ghanan cases above show a human hero fighting a giant snake or even magically powerful (God) snake that demanded human sacrifices - maidens in fact, same as in the case of Orochi in Japan.

- Bida, the Ghanan Snake God, had multiple heads (as seen in the statement "hydra-like properties of regenerating its severed heads")

- The hydra-like self-regenerating heads of the Ghanan snake God is actually common too. "Hydra" is just more familiar to people exposed to 'western' stuff. Doesn't mean it is unique or the sole original.



African prosperity - then as now (and in most countries outside the African continent too) - depends largely on water supply, so one can surmise that the demise of Bida the Ghanan Snake God which is seen as directly resulting in the decline of Ghana's prosperity, could be owing to loss of the Snake God's protection in ensuring the adequate amount of water (and related environmental/food) supply. In many African communities throughout the African continent, Snake Gods are (still) worshipped as controllers of flood and drought. Examples of this will follow.

Post 5/ Africa part 2 and Native American Iroquois



(Previous post ended with Ghana's Snake God with multiple heads who could regrow severed heads - like the hydra! - and which required maidens to be sacrificed to it and which got killed by a human aiming to be the hero of his love-interest/next sacrificial selection. <= "PIE in Ghana". Actually, magical giant snakes [occasionally demanding women/sacrifice] - who may or may not get done in by a hero/God - are a common feature of African religion, as seen in this and final post.)



b. Uganda



digital.library.upenn.edu/women/baskerville/king/king.html

Quote:THE KING OF THE SNAKES

AND OTHER FOLK-LORE STORIES FROM UGANDA



THERE is a beautiful village near the Great Lake, called Kalungu. The houses nestle into the banana gardens, and there are sunny little courtyards with lemon and guava trees and pawpaw-trees heavy with fruit. The little boys who herd the goats on the hill-sides have no fear, for everything is peaceful and happy.



But once upon a time Kalungu[ was a very sorrowful place, for a big snake called Sesota lived on the hill-side and came down every day to the village and caught people and ate them.



Then a poor peasant man, called Waswa, came to the Council and said: "Sirs, I will kill Sesota"; and they offered him spears and big hunting knives, but he refused them all and said: "Give me a large water-pot and some blue beads and some brass and ivory bracelets and a ring, and I will go and kill Sesota."



So they gave him all he asked, and he set out on his journey, his little son carrying the water-pot with the other things inside it; and as he walked he played this tune on his reed pipe:



Sesota, Sesota, King of the Snakes,

Beautiful presents I bring.

The King of Uganda has sent me to-day

With bracelets and beads and a ring.



As he neared Kalungu the old snake on the hillside heard him corning, and because snakes are very fond of music he listened gladly and sang back:

[...]

And so they lure it into the waterpot to get it to see its gifts (no soma, food or wine this time, but a bed and jewels), lull it to sleep rather than intoxicate it but same principle, close the waterpot, and then

Quote:the King commanded the people to make a bonfire, and they burnt Sesota the great snake.

- Not quite a "cosmic" struggle here either, but "Sesota King of the snakes" lived near Great Lake Kalungu, ate people living nearby (no demand for human sacrifices in this case, it caught and ate them actively by coming down to their village every day)

- But was lured into a trap by "gifts" and subterfuge and then killed

- Not killed by hero, but caught by hero. Killed by community collective.

- Not described as a giant snake, but a "big snake". However, it is "magical" in the sense that it sings back in a human/intelligible tongue what's more



Snake king Sesota near Kalunga (so easy to mistype as Kalinga or even Kalinaga) leads to a brief divergence from Africa to move to Dominica's indigenous Kalinago people (which is probably pronounced very differently again):

caribbeanbookblog.wordpress.com/2010/01/31/the-snake-king-of-the-kalinago-dominicas-kalinago-children-celebrate-their-culture/

Quote:A group of Kalinago children from Dominica has done something quite remarkable. They got together and wrote a storybook based on an ancient Kalinago legend which, from all accounts, is receiving rave reviews, even from fans as far away as the UK.

The book is called The Snake King of the Kalinago and it was written by students from the Atkinson Primary School with illustrations by teenagers from the Carib Territory in Dominica. The Kalinago (erroneously called Caribs) are descendents of Dominica’s first indigenous settlers. They live on a 3,700 acre territory on the island’s east coast that was set aside for them in 1903. They number approximately 3,500 and elect their own chief who holds the position for 4 years.

The Snake King of the Kalinago tells the story of Bakwa, a great diamond-crested snake with magical powers which slithers out of the sea and goes to live in a cave in the mountains of Dominica. When Maruka, a Kalinago farmer goes to see him, Bakwa uses his powers to grant Maruka his wishes. Then strangers arrive and everything changes.

- Would a farmer ask for agricultural favours? This is mere guessing of course, haven't read the story.

- Still the tradition speaks of a "great snake",

- and magical snake what's more, capable of granting wishes, whose original home was the sea.

- It says the Snake King of Kalinago had specifically moved in from the sea into a cave to live there. The Korean giant serpent also lived in a cave, so did the giant snake in the Chinese folktale that was slain by Li Ji (one of its intended female sacrifical victims), and the dragon in the Italian folktale about princess Fantaghiro also lived in a cave. Maybe this is something that giant sea serpents (and dragons) are sometimes thought to do: move onto land from the sea and live in caves?







c. Namibia

orangesenqurak.com/people/people+of+the+basin/beliefs/watersnake.aspx



Snake that controls the water in a watering hole. It's spirit beckons a maiden to self-sacrifice, failing that, the waterhole refuses to yield water and the nation suffers. The maiden sacrifices herself at last and it yields plenty of water again.

Quote:History and Water Related Culture: Stories:

The Water Snake



This story from the Nama people in Namibia, is taken from 'The Stolen Water and Other Stories: Traditional Tales from Namibia', by Jennifer Davis (1993). It has been reproduced with kind permission from Gamsberg-MacMillan Books and New Namibia Books, Namibia.



Long long ago, in the land of Nama, there lived a husband-and wife with their two daughters. The older daughter, Abas, was admired by everyone for her beauty and goodness. Every day, like all the other girls of the village, the two sisters fetched water from the waterhole at' the foot of the hills.

There was plenty of water in the hills so the people were happy and prosperous. Their herds were fat and healthy a fid their crops were the best in the land.

One morning, Abas and her sister arrived first at the water hole. As Abas filled her pot, a voice called to her from the water.

Abas, I have chosen you. Come to me. The girl dropped her pot in fright. ''Did you hear that, little sister?" ''Yes, but there is no one here. Who can it be?" Again the voice called out across the water.

Abas, I have chosen you. Come to me. A giant snake rose from the water. Yellow foam streamed from his green scales and he breathed out tongues off flames.



<she tries to avoid it the first time, it reappears and expresses the same insistent expectation>



The worried parents went to the chief for advice. The chief called all his people, who had by this time heard the story, and led them down to the waterhole.

When the villagers arrived at the waterhole, they stared in horror. It was as dry as dust! Messengers were sent out to all the springs and streams, but they all reported that there was no water anywhere. The chief then turned to his people. ''It is said by our forefathers that if the water snake calls a maiden, she must obey! Now we have been cursed. Without water we will be destroyed. Let us return to our homes and gather our things. At sunrise we must leave this place."

The people wept in despair. Abas saw the sorrow of her nation and knew what she must do. She knelt before her family for their blessing. Then, tall and graceful, she walked down the path to the waterhole, watched by the silent villagers.

Early the next morning, the family of Abas hurried down to the valley. What they saw filled them with fear for Abas. The waterhole was overflowing. The springs in the hills were gushing down to the valley below. They called out for Abas. Again and again they called, but there was no reply. Abas was gone forever.

- giant fire-breathing snake - sounds like it may be a dragon.

- controls water supply/drought

- human sacrifice of maiden - self sacrifice in this case - expected, and they have a tradition to this effect. Else his "curse" in the form of drought ensues.

- no "hero" kills the snake - it's not considered 'evil' or to be killed. Rather, people accept that a self-sacrifice is expected to get water and plenty in return. [She might not be dead: there are African traditions that these Snake Gods choose wives. See next post]

The giant snake could simply BE the river again (as dragons in E Asia often are).





d. Africans - like so many other populations - have River Gods looking like Sea creatures too (dragon! snake! fish! All in one!)



Zambezi River God:

Controlling flood, drought/protection against famine (compare with how River Gods in Japan, China are dragons or snakes etc thought to control floods, drought etc). Here the River God only started causing floods to prevent a dam built by the alien terrorists, but was benign to his people, as was his wife.





safariafrica.co.za/tourist-attractions/nyaminyami.htm

Quote:Here is the story to be told about Nyaminyami, the Zambezi River God. He has a body like a snake and a head like a fish and no one knows how big he is, for he never showed himself in full display. But he is very big! The people of Zambezi Valley in Zimbabwe were protected by Nyaminyami, their ancestral spirit (Mudzimu), who fed them from his own meat in times of hunger.

(That last: perhaps it means plenty of fish/sea game available from his body of water?)



The people pledged their allegiance to him by performing ceremonial dances. For many years Nyaminyami and his wife stayed safely at Kariba, the spot which was their home and near that spot, that's where it all began. One season when Nyaminyami's wife had gone down the mighty Kariba Gorge to other people of the Valley to answer their prayers and bless her people, the white man came to build a wall.

It took five long years to see it through because Nyaminyami did not want to be disturbed. He caused some floods and loss of life, but at last he was kind enough to let the wall to be all complete. It is also believed that the occasional earth tremor felt in the lake surroundings is caused by this spirit. It was the work of the Tonga elders and their medium spirits to persuade the Nyaminyami to allow the Zambezi to be tamed.

But Shame! Nyaminyami was separated from his wife. When the wall was completed he was downstream, and now cannot get back upstream. Legend has it that he will only reappear to his people one he meets with wife again.

Great bodies of water are considered sacred, for water is essential for the life of the village in an often arid land. Wherever there is water, the Africans find prosperity. The Nyaminyami is the ruler of water and his symbol is worn to ward of the forces of darkness and to attract wealth.

[...]

The Tonga themselves have inhabited both banks of the Zambezi River in what was known as the Gwembe Trough (from Kariba Gorge upstream to Devil's Gorge) for centuries and in themselves have an interesting history. Prior to David Livingstone's work in the area around 1855/7 the Tonga were at the constant mercy of slaving parties and wild animals. Between then and the mid 1950's they lived in relative peace with very little outside influence - their contact with the "outside world" was limited to prospectors, hunters, surveyors and the local District Commissioners.

In the mid 1950's life changed with the decision to proceed with the construction of the Kariba dam wall. Another chapter in the Tonga history was started.



Nyaminyami has supposedly been seen on occasion by locals - much like the Loch Ness Monster however, hard evidence is elusive. He is described by some as looking like a whirlwind - the majority say he's dragon-like with a snake's torso and a fish's head. The legend of Nyaminyami has several tales.

The story of the dam wall construction and the floods in 1957 and 1958 are well documented.

The local story goes as follows:

+ Whilst the waters of Lake Kariba were only just rising and the Tonga were being relocated they invoked Nyaminyami in a spirit of resistance.

+ Although he was never used as a political symbol it was generally agreed that he disapproved of the white man's plans to build the dam.

+ In 1957 when a 1000 year flood was recorded on the Zambezi, construction was halted and set back by flood damage.

+ The locals nodded knowingly and waited for the final destruction during the next rainy season.

+ This of course nearly happened with the 1958 flood which was only slightly less violent than the previous year.

+ Elders today claim that it was only their intervention which placated Nyaminyami.

+ In Kariba there are still occasional earth tremors from the load of the lake on the earth's surface.

+ Locals claim that this is Nyaminyami who at the time of the sealing of the dam wall was philandering down stream towards Mana Pools

He's now very lonely and only the destruction of the dam will reunite him with this wife.

5. A Native American case: Iroquois



archive.org/stream/serpentworshipin211hamb/serpentworshipin211hamb_djvu.txt

(Christo-colonial book on Snake Worship in Africa, with brief survey of occurrences elsewhere)

Quote:It is said, however, that the Hopi hold the most sacred dance of this kind when there are no alien spectators. There is processional dancing with rattlesnakes between the teeth, keeping of snakes in a sacred edifice, and liberation of the reptiles toward the four cardinal points when the rites are concluded. The ceremony is intended to assure a supply of rain.

Quote:In the Iroquoian myth the monster is a horned serpent which swallowed the thunder boy, who was eventually rescued by Thunder and his warriors.

- Definitely rain/drought control in the first. Implication of weather control in the second.

- No snake monster in the first, just serpent worship

- Second one does involve a Thunder God - all the way in the Americas - and his warriors, facing a serpent in order to retrieve a swallowed "thunder boy".

Thunder and warriors (thunder's echoes?) being the one that does the rescuing seems to imply that rain will ensue. Could be Dragon blocking the moon/something preventing the rains again.

Alternatively, the horns may to point to something more tangibly significant. As seen in the final post.



But I wonder how the PIEs got to the Americas to instill PIE motifs into indigenous native Americans?

Post 6/7 Loose ends



Pythons/snake worship, African dragons



Python and other snake worship in Africa, where it is widespread, is not "derived" but indigenous (so not from Egypt either) - not that that should be a surprise, much concerning Africa is pretty "original":

sacred-texts.com/afr/vao/vao03.htm

Quote:Wilfrid D. Hambly, Assistant Curator of African Ethnology at the Field Museum of Natural History, Chicago, the first to produce a strictly scientific work on the question of serpent worship in Africa[5] after a prolonged and careful study, has adduced strong and convincing reasons to the contrary. Hence his conclusion: "Examination of African Python worship in relation to cults and beliefs from other parts of the world provides

[5. Field Museum of Natural History Publication 289, Chicago, 1931, Anthropological Series, Vol. XXI, No. 1.]

{p. 4}

no evidence that Africa received Python worship from extraneous sources. On the contrary, the evidence is strongly in favour of an indigenous origin of Python worship."[6] And again: "There is nothing more than a superficial resemblance between the snake beliefs of Africa and those of ancient Egypt."[7]

And Africans have narratives of flying dragons (presumably somewhat resembling flying snakes) too as is implied in:

cryptidz.wikia.com/wiki/Namibian_Flying_Snake

(I think cryptids is a site for urban legend monsters)

Quote:The Namibian flying snake is an odd gargantuan serpent that is possibly derived from African legends of dragons.

Snakes and Dragons don't necessarily refer to the same thing for everyone



archive.org/stream/serpentworshipin211hamb/serpentworshipin211hamb_djvu.txt

(Christo-colonial book on Snake Worship in Africa, with brief survey of occurrences elsewhere)

Quote:There is no evidence of anything approaching snake worship in China, unless one is prepared to accept the dragon as a transformed snake.

I tend to confuse the two sometimes, and dinos and dragons too. But PIE-ists seem to like conflating snakes and dragons for force-fitting purposes.





The Cosmic Egg of Africans



mythencyclopedia.com/A-Am/African-Mythology.html

Quote:How Things Came To Be. Many myths explain how the world came into existence. The Dogon say that twin pairs of creator spirits or gods called Nummo hatched from a cosmic egg. Other groups also speak of the universe beginning with an egg. People in both southern and northern Africa believe that the world was formed from the body of an enormous snake, sometimes said to span the sky as a rainbow.

(But no one was going to claim the cosmic egg is a PIE motif, surely? But ya never know with PIEists. They're so ignorant about the universe beyond their selective and carefully outlined ethnogeography.)





Things that could explain it



Multi-headed giant snakes could be explained by a mental extrapolation of the occurrence of actual instances of multi-headed snakes (which is a naturally-occuring deformity; have a photo of 2 headed snake in a wild-life book):



africagreenmedia.co.za/seven-headed-snake-in-india-real-or-fake-hoax-mythology-and-religion/

Quote:Hydra

On the more mundane level — snakes born with multiple heads are actually not all that rare. They do tend to not live that long though. There have certainly been exceptions in that regard though — some of which have lived for multiple decades while in captivity.

And giant snakes could just be giant pythons/boas embellished even more by imagination:



cryptomundo.com/cryptotourism/giant-snakes-of-japan-2/

The Giant Mystery Snakes Of Japan



Maybe Japanese had some bad collective memories from long ago - see below. Or giant snakes capable of swallowing humans and larger animals could be the few freaky last remaining relatives of

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1149743/Picture-100ft-long-snake-sparks-fears-mythical-monster-Borneo.html

Quote:Picture of 100ft-long 'snake' sparks fears of mythical monster in Borneo

By Richard Shears

UPDATED: 13:40 GMT, 20 February 2009



According to legend, the Nabau was a terrifying snake more than 100ft in length and with a dragon's head and seven nostrils.

But now local villagers living along the Baleh river in Borneo [...]

(A tradition about a snake with seven nostrils in one dragon head? Indonesia is surrounded by ocean that contains some of the most poisonous water snakes in the world. Maybe they had deformed looking ancestors or cousins?

While the 2nd photo seems very fake to me, fossils of pre-historical snakes discovered do sound intimidating



[color="#0000FF"]Earlier this month scientists unearthed the fossil of a killer snake that was longer than a bus, as heavy as a small car and which could swallow an animal the size of a cow.

The 45ft long monster - named Titanoboa - was so big that it lived on a diet of crocodiles and giant turtles, squeezing them to death and devouring them whole.Weighing an impressive 1.25 tons, it slithered around the tropical forests of South America 60million years ago, just five million years after the last dinosaurs were wiped out.



Partial skeletons of the boa constrictor-like prehistoric killer were found in a Colombian coal mine by an international team of fossil hunters.[/color]

Maybe there had been some freakily large snakes in ancient times when these human traditions concerning extraordinarily-giant snakes first started? Could explain aspects of "the Nabau" etc.

Post 7/7 - a possibly "Common Origin of Supersnake Stories from Prehistory" (but it's not PIE chade



cryptomundo.com/cryptotourism/giant-snakes-of-japan-2/

The Giant Mystery Snakes Of Japan

and "the Nabau" supersnake collective memory of the Indonesians of Borneo could make more sense in light of



giantconstrictingsnakes.com/CommonOrigin.html

Quote:Evidence for a Common Origin of Supersnake Stories from Prehistory



The intermingling of supersnakes and mythological snakes makes these stories difficult to categorize. While examining the literature on folklore and myths I was startled by the similarity of the Great Water Snake of South African peoples and the Rainbow Serpent Myth of the Australian Aborigines.



The Great Snakes of the Khoekhoen and /Xam



Snakes play an important role in the belief systems of many peoples and confusing mythological snakes with real snakes has contributed significantly to supersnake stories. However, African supersnake and mythological snake stories are perhaps more relevant as ancestral stories. As humans moved out of African to colonize Eurasia they carried their mythologies with them and it is entirely possible that the true mother of all supersnake stories lies within African cultures.



The hunter-gathers and early agricultural peoples of southern Africa painted large snakes in their rock art. Hoff (1997) determined that the Khoekhoen refer to large snakes with supernatural powers as Great Snakes. Interviews with members of the Khoekhoenin, the Northern Cape and southern Namibia and descendants of the /Xam, a group previously believed extinct, from the Upper Karoo area provided the basis for Hoff’s work. The Khoekhoen believe in huge, train sized snakes they call Great Snakes which are divided into two categories: aquatic and terrestrial. The terrestrial Great Snake is the Veld Snake which likes water, knows when rain is coming, and is active in the veld after a rain. Killing a Veld Snake will cause drought or torrential rains and lighting. To the Khoekhoen, Great Snakes are real, supernatural beings not just part of their folklore, and live south of Namibia, while to the north they are replaced by other snakes.

The /Xam do not believe in the Veld Snake, but the Water Snake is important in their belief system. The Water Snake is a color- and shape-shifter so that it can catch people. To the /Xam the Water Snake can instill sexual potency and health by licking a person or spitting into their mouth. But, the Khoekhoen also believe it will also eat humans who venture to close, or it may enter a person’s home to catch someone he is in love with. It kills by stabbing the victim with its tongue, removing a person’s brain by inserting its tongue into its nose, and sucking out a person’s blood. Water snakes also seduce women and take them underwater for copulation. The Water Snake does not like menstruating women and the snake may cause menstruating humans to break out in blisters. They also have the power to change a person into a frog. Hoff suggests that the /Xam’s more positive view is older and that both groups originally regarded the Water Snake as a positive force.

(The Greek River God Achelous - known from "Cornucopia" narrative - who fought with Herakles is a shapeshifter, as some river Gods are. He competed with Herakles over Deianara. Took a form of serpent and horned bull. Some Asian River God dragons also shapeshift. As do many others.)





The Australian Rainbow Serpent

[...]

The oldest Rainbow Serpent paintings are Arnhem Land rock art dated at 6000–8000 YBP. Two types of Rainbow Serpents are reflected in Aboriginal oral history, mythology, and art: the female Yingarna, the mother and original creator being; and the male Ngalyod, a transformer of the land. They often live in deep waterholes below waterfalls. Rainbow Serpents are sources of creation, unity, peace, and cooperation, as well as destruction. The creature is said to shape landscapes; generate rain; and heal the sick; while swallowing people, or drowned them, disfigured others with sores and bringing weakness, illness, and death.

[...]

Using computer analysis of images and dating rock art Taçon et al. (1996) say that the first images of Rainbow Serpents appear in Yam period, about 6000 YBP, and that these set the pattern for all following images: a snake-like body, curved horse-like heads, tails that are pointed or spiked, and an assortment appendages, including wispy tendrils and ear-like projections. They concluded that the first Rainbow Serpent was based upon the Ribboned Pipefish, Haliichthys taeniophora (Family Syngnathidae), which occurs in the seas around Irian Jaya, and the coast of northern Australia from Shark Bay in Western Australia to the Torres Strait. This does not surprise me since Radciffle-Brown (1926) wrote, “At Cape York the rainbow is regarded not as a snake, but as a huge fish that lives far out to sea.” It should be note that the pipefish is not a huge animal.



(Actually, that description could perhaps pass for an Asian dragon: "an assortment appendages, including wispy tendrils and ear-like projections". The Asian "dragon" looks serpentine, it does not look like the western dragon.

And is Achelous the Greek River God not depicted with a horned bulls-head - which is sort of like a horse head in some respects - and with a serpent body?

Zambezi River God's appearance is described as serpent body but a different head too, though a fish's head. As well as like a whirlwind in part.

All sounds sort of like a water chimera. Coincidentally, Chimeras themselves are said to be related to Typhon and the Hydra.)



Speculation that the Rainbow Serpent’s true identity was a species of the now extinct family Madtsoidae (genera Wonambi and Yurlunggur) has been expressed by several authors (Scanlon and Lee, 2002; Freeman, 2003). Fossils of these snakes occur worldwide, and most became extinct 25-15 MYA, however, there is evidence that they survived in Australian until at least 100,000 YBP. If they hung on until 60,000 YBP humans may have had contact with them. Some rivaled or exceed the lengths of modern day giant snakes, but as far as we know they lacked supernatural powers and horns on their heads. It seems more probable that supersnakes and mythical snakes were originally based upon the African Python, Python seba and Python natalensis; or, some other, now extinct large snake that lived in Africa.



[...]



Origin of the Caribs, A Neotropical Giant Mythological Snake Story



In northern South America the Carib Indians of the upper Pomeroon River of Guyana have a story about their origin that starts with a water-camudi (an anaconda) having an Indian woman for a sweetheart. During the day he took the form of a snake, at night he became human. The woman became pregnant and gave birth to a baby camudi. The woman’s family became suspicious and discovered the nature of her secret offspring. Her brothers killed the snakes; they cut the baby into pieces in a remote part of the forest. Months later they were hunting near the location of the slaughter and found houses and people, the pieces of the snake had grown into the ancestors of the Carib nation (Roth, 1915). In the Pakaraima Mountains of Guyana the locals believe that a large camoodie guards natural resources and that it will show its displeasure at fishermen by causing excessive rain to fall and will kill and swallow several people at a time. The Caribs also have a giant water dwelling snake Okoyumo, which is like an anaconda but much bigger and likes menstruating women.



Thus, there is evidence that giant snakes played a role in the belief systems, folklore, and religions of peoples of Africa, India, Australia and South America. Snakes in the rock art of Africa, India, Australia, and the Americas have been documented. Often these shape-shifting snakes have appendages coming off their heads: horns, crests, and plumes. They cause rain to fall, alter the landscape, and have a duality of character that allows them to be both dangerous and beneficial to humans. The ancestral story most likely originated in Africa, where the Great Water Snakes are often given horns (from the antelope which is important to the African cultures).

Chinese Dragons certainly look like they have horns and appendages/plumey stuff coming off their heads, if you think about it.

Further, the appearance of the more cosmic-level Gong Gong of the Chinese also fits in with how the face looks different from the serpentine body:

Quote:[color="#800080"][Gonggong=][/color] Chinese water god or sea monster who is often depicted in Chinese mythology, folktales, and religious stories as having red hair and the tail of a serpent (or dragon).

What the above article on supersnakes does indicate is that there are and long have been populations insisting on giant weather-controlling magical serpents everywhere. On this point, the above link insists on divergent evolution from Africa. However, as Africans (such as of the Zambezi River) and E Asians (such as the Japanese etc) insist they can see their Gods [at least when the Gods take on forms visible to them], we need not insist this is merely cultural memory/shared prehistoric mythology.

But in any case, weather controlling giant serpents/dragons are not original Oryan invention that was passed on to other people. Other people may have traditions where they live with the situation - Zambezi River God is benign - or accept the price (self-sacrifice) or take action into their own hands (fight the Giant River Snake) or their other Gods may descend and restrain the snake themselves (Susano-o, etc). Often by trickery (food, wine, sake - like the soma).



There's no need for PIE Oryan excuses / for insisting PIE's must have given rise to the "trope".

If *I* can look up this sort of stuff, any moron can do better. Question is, why didn't PIE-ist claimants of "chaoskamp is originally a PIE trope" look it up?





Also, why isn't - say - human sacrifice to the serpent/dragon part of the trope? Or a localised wreckage - not necessarily a national or even cosmic one - threatened by local water creature (such as a local Chinese River dragon or local Japanese serpent)? Both are otherwise so common, after all. Because patterns with other countries could then be formed: Japan and China with Africa and Greece/Troy, say. [E.g. Troy had visitations by that sea monster, sent to Troy's king Laomedon by Poseidon as punishment for not paying fair wages when Poseidon and Apollo worked for him undercover. The sea creature caused people and the fruit/plants of the land to perish. It was oracled the sea monster could only be pacified by sacrificing Laomedon's daughter. Hercules, helped by Athena, slew the beast. Laomedon went back on the promised wages yet again, and Hercules destroyed Troy in revenge. This was an old tradition even in the time of Homer's Iliad, as a protective wall structure that Athena built for Hercules on the beach still remained. <- Some new features in common with Susano-o and Ghanaan etc cases concerning Watery Serpents killed by God or hero.]





But no. PIE-ists insist on carefully selecting patterns that favour belief in PIE-ism (and not with evidence either: "potentially" transmitted to Japan from PIE originally is not "evidence" and is asking for belief). Not to mention that PIE-ists totally wear blinkers to anything in the rest of the (i.e. non-"IE") world - owing to obsession/one-track mind - and so come off looking really ignorant to any casual onlooker with any modicum of general knowledge that can see the obvious holes. [E.g. some years back they essentially declared that "Sati is IE", as Bernard Lewis and then Elst did (see latter's Dutch article on Sati from the 1990s or thereabouts and which he still made additions/notes to later, in >=2000). Never mind that - as per Elst's re-definition of Sati - the ancient Chinese for example had such "Sati" too. Which at least Elst should have known already - or so one thought - for being not just an indologist, but a 'sinologist' too, and for having generally more sense than other indologists. I mean, the Chinese case was known since at the very least the 1980s or so, when a children's educational book mentioning the relevant info was printed, and who knows for how many decades or centuries longer than that? Never mind. Elst still comes off looking good in comparison to the "chaoskampf is potentially hence actually originally PIE [and so the Japanese *must* have borrowed]" types. Oh yeah, *sure*, that's how it is us: But - until you prove that transmission with hard evidence, not theorising let alone guessing - know that that's just a belief. Whether Proto-IndoEuropeans existed and consequently had a religion/beliefs/credo or not, PIE-ists certainly do.]



The real answer is: E Asian (and African etc) heathens' heathenisms being living religions and their Gods being known to be real to the ethnic natives still loyal to their ancestral religions, it turns out that in *their* cases - if no one else's - this ... alleged "motif/trope" is independently derived, being indeed true for their localities. I.e. no common ur-mythology let alone PIE-ism thesis needs to be submitted in order to explain the "God [or human] vs magical dragon [or serpent]" phenomenon among them. They're not related to IE or via IE. Can leave them alone. As in, PIE-ists should Back. Off.

This next set of posts is still related, but on

Dragons/Giant Snakes/Giant serpents in general. Looking at common features across the world etc.



Post 1/?



No. I *don't* do "world" "mythology" and I'm certainly not into "ur-human shared mythology" either - didn't the Germans beat that topic to death in the 19th century, as IIRC even briefly discussed in George Eliot's Middlemarch?



I think Dragons et al around the world is just fascinating. The commonalities, the differences, and how there are so few "exact" matches, etc.

And by coincidence it also challenges PIE assumptions of originality and directional borrowing in this matter. [There really should be a ban on all encroaching speculation made without proof.]





Africa

notableinklings.blogspot.com/2012/04/dragons-in-africa-aido-hwedo.html

Quote:Aido-Hwedo was so large it could hold up the entire world, but once the multitude of creation was done Nana-Buluku asked Aido-Hwedo to coil up beneath the land to cushion it. Aido-Hwedo cannot stand heat so the Creator made the ocean for the Dragon to live in (like the Midgard Serpent in Teutonic legend). Inhabiting the undersea with the Rainbow Dragon is a troop of red monkeys who forge the iron bars that are Aido-Hwedo’s food.

When the iron runs out and Aido-Hwedo grows hungry it will start to chew on its own tail. The earth above will become unbalanced, be struck by repeated earthquakes and eventually slide off the Dragon’s back into the sea.

picture: 4.bp.blogspot.com/-Hw5I6kRpTb0/T4aSEyBj9CI/AAAAAAAAAxc/zZvm3QkMIzw/s400/Benin+Aido+Hwedo+httpwww.thisotherworld.co.ukbenin2.html.jpg





library.thinkquest.org/03oct/01993/africa.htm

Quote:In the tales of Africa, it is believed that the world is held by a serpent called Aido Hwedo. When the world was shapeless, Aido Hwedo carried goddess Mawu in his mouth. Mawu shaped the world and Aido Hwedo was to have made running rivers & streams. During the travels wherever they rested Aido Hwedo excrement piled up to become the sheer of peaks of mountain ranges which later solidified. While this happing Mawu`s work was getting heavy. So she split the world in two, water on one part land and sky on the other. Mawu used her divine wisdom, and told Aido Hwedo to lie down on the water and put his tail in his mouth. On top of his coils, then Mawu placed the Earth. When Earthquakes strike it is believed that Aido Hwedo is moving, and it is also believed that Aido Hwedo is to act as the messenger of god Oklun, and is addressed "Our King".

It's not just the coiled up with tail-in-mouth that sounds a lot like the famous giant serpent that Thor fought (Norse/Germanic religion), but also the size being so great it compares - in terms of orders of magnitude - with earth's circumference:



blackdrago.com/fame/jormungand.htm

Quote:Being the second oldest child of Loki the Trickster and Angboda, he was kidnapped by the gods. Those gods then threw him into the sea near Midgard, and there he slept and brooded and ate. And, he ate so much that he then encompassed the world and finally had to bite on his own tail. [1]



Jormungand is a huge, serpent-shaped sea monster. In almost all artwork, he is depicted with his tail in his mouth. [1]

At the link, you see that God Thor fought this sea-serpent 3 times.



At least no one will pretend that tail-in-mouth giant serpent is a PIE motif (e.g. African, Native American, Norse and Egyptian all have it)



blackdrago.com/fame/aidohwedo.htm

Quote:Aido Hwedo is a Rainbow Serpent, which is a class of snakes found in many cultures that associate the phenomenon of the rainbow with a semi-supernatural creature. [2] In the traditions of the culture of Dahomey, Aido Hwedo was the first creature to be created, and he carried the supreme god, Mawu, across the earth on his back so that the deity could fill the world. [3] In this way, Aido Hwedo aided the creation of the universe and the earth. [1] As they traveled, the serpent's tracks carved the chasms and rivers of the Earth, [3] and wherever he rested for the night, he deposited piles of excrement so vast that they are known today as the mountains. [1]



He was so vast that he had to eat great quantities of iron to sustain his strength, and when there was not enough, Aido Hwedo devoured its own tail. [1] In this way, he reflect the symbolism of the Ouroborus.

blackdrago.com/types/ouroboros.htm

Quote:In the West, the Ouroboros originated in Egypt [1] around 1600 B.C. (since when did Egypt become "west" before Greek presence there?), [3] but many other cultures have this same symbol that predates its Egyptian counterpart. [2] The name Ouroboros is Greek, meaning "devouring its tail." [3] In the broadest sense, the Ouroboros represents the continuity of life, [5] and it symbolizes the primeval, anarchic dynamism preceding creation of the cosmos and emergence of order. [11]



The continuous destruction of life, and the continuity of life, and its cyclical nature connect in the Ouroboros. In this way, it encapsulates the complexities of life into a singular fact: Life eats life and sheds away the generations.



The Ouroboros appears all over the world in many different cultures. With its origins in Africa, specifically in Egypt, [2] the Ouroboros became introduced to Greece, and later Northern Europe, likely through trade. [2] Norse Mythology absorbed the Ouroboros as Jormungand, the Midgard Serpent, whose symbolism is counter to that of the Ouroboros. [4]



In Asia, both India and Japan present Ourobori. [2] In the American continent, indigenous groups of North, South, and Central America had variations of the Ouroboros, among them the Aztecs. [2]

Well, that's one thing people can't pretend is PIE and as being supposedly graciously "donated" to "Afro-Asiatic" etc. Nor does even donation follow: seems very old in various parts of the world, including places like the Americas. A native American example will come in a later post. (Again: how did PIE get there long before the Vikingen or even the alleged/speculative discovery of the New World by European Picts, then?)