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<b>Hindu Rashtra? Propositions & Reality</b>

Many Hindu organizations have been labeled as fascists, communal, enemies of a democratic framework and so on. In many circles, the very word RSS or BJP are used as derogatory epithets and the discussion ends there even before it starts. Yet, no one seems to answer the question, what is a Hindu Rashtra? What will be its constitution like? What will be its governance model? There are several books, papers and institutions, which espouse the cause of a Hindu Nation. Few delve into, what would be a Hindu state.

The concept of a Hindu Nation seems to rest upon key precepts such as the promotion of Sanskrit as the national language of India, teaching of Dharmic precepts in our schools, the abolition of constitutional discrimination against the Hindus, fight against violence prone mono theistic religions, Hinduism to be treated on par with Nationalism in India, re-writing of Indian history from an Indian view point, correcting the negative role played by our left leaning media against Hindu causes, re-define secularism to be equi-distant but not opposed to religion, the need for an intellectual Kshatriya and in general the ability to practice a way of life in all domains of the Indian social and political spectrum openly, consistent with Dharmic principles.

While there are many such Hindu/Dharmic issues espoused by forces sympathetic to Hindu concepts of Nation hood, the further application of these concepts to a governance model for the state based on Hinduism seems to be elusive. It is unclear as to what are the key precepts of its constitution and governance bodies? Will it rest upon institutions such as a parliament, executive and judiciary? Will the state be a Hindu state or it will it be equi distant to all faiths? Will there be a place for one man, one vote? Will it have equality before the law as its guiding principle? There are many such questions, which come to mind, where we need clarity on what is a Hindu Rashtra?

Is the concept of a Hindu Rashtra limited to a Hindu Nation or does it go beyond to define the concept of the hindu state. Is it satisfied with correcting the imbalance in the current Indian polity or does it seek to completely redefine Indian polity in Hindu colors. The governance models of kingdom states of India under Hindus, were largely based on a Monarchy with local governance bodies such as the Panchayat. It is not known, which part of the vast history of Indian states the Hindu Rashtra is depending upon to define a future vision. Some think there is no such thing as a Hindu state and is a red herring.

Hopefully participants of this forum can throw some light and provide clarity to these rather vexed questions.

Most of the support for the BJP appears to be from Urban Hindus. Many Hindu Nationalists seem to be the future composition of India, more educated, urbanized etc.
This is a good sign, because it indicates that India's period of rising Nationalism will be starting now, and this means that all Political parties will become more Nationalistic. THe Congress party of the future may be equivalent to the BJP of today in terms of Nationalism.


Regionalism will end, and people will focus more on National issues as they become more educated.

Dharampal writes a lot about this although he doesnt call it "hindu rashtra". His lecture bharatiya chitta, manas and kala is really good.

I should probably qualify the above post more. I think the key concept is the village or the community as a unit rather then the individual as a unit. Per him , independence was just transfer of power from one colonial power to another which has led to a complete disconnect between the 'elite' and aam-junta. I better shut up here and let people make up their own mind after reading his book. Its not that big (200 pages?) but worth its weight in gold.

the hindu rashtra should have an educational system that totally gets it correct about the carnage by the muslims and the loot by the poms. as also do away with the hoax of non-violent moves winning us independence.

that HEIR paper saying that we had 25% of the wealth etc and all other such stuff should be part of it, so that people know that this poverty striken country that they grow up is was once glorious in every way.

there should be uniform civil code. one nation one people one set of laws.

the top 10 and the next most promising 10 cities should be under the control of the government. if we have to beat china we need to adopt a bit of their command economy policies. and give the cities a facelift.

there should be good schools, a-la the kendra vidyalayas and millitary schols that would give quality education to kids without giving them a misionary education. this missionary stranglehold should go.

quota system should be there, but only up to a point (say till middle rungs of the institute). we cant select people based on caste in top ranks of any walk of life. and it should be need based. for example - (i dont know who the S.C.'s are, among other communities, so i will use a bengali example). Tarun Das was the chairman of FICCI during vajpayee. i do not see why the children of such a person, should have the advantage of the quota system. only under priviledged backwards should have the positive discrimination.

we should have a lot more indian stuff in the carriculums. for example vedic math should be compulsory. kids should learn about all the contributions indians made, from buddhayana's theorem to j.c.bose - its sad that we lap up the marconi crap they teach us.

among other things...

There are (perhaps) four key processes of social transformation that need to be considered and are underway in various forms, and probably we see lot of shared goals, methods, etc. Who knows which party will eventually win out. Basically I wanted to see where and how a concept / framework of Hindu Rashtra will fall in. The processes - can be/ and are challenges to be addressed adequately (IMHO).

<b>The first:</b> Membership, is about inclusion and exclusion, and is challenged by identification with a new politics of cultural identity which transcends national boundaries.

<b>The second & third:</b> Rights and duties, is the relationship between citizen and state. Thus, rights, if defined, do they apply to all citizens qually or different for different people (not so good), BUT under modernity's project of universalism and idealism, this tooand other worldwide movements, this process is contributing a different meaning to "rights". The concept of duties implies a certain set of values, which is challenged by the emergence of increasingly globally oriented values, such as ecology (If a new value movement) or allegiance to chiurch or mullah or marx.

<b>The fourth: </b> Participation, is about democracy, and access to power, and the current challenges, based on global and information-based economy.

The old (not just yet) nation-state model to universal/globalist etc model (roughly) processes can be seen as: <i>NS - nation-state G - global</i>

<b>Membership: </b> Assimilationist, Nation-building (NS) - Pluralistic, Multicultural (G)
<b>Rights: </b> Civil liberties (NS) - Human rights (G)

<b>Duties:</b> National interest (NS) - Globalism, Environmentalism (G)

<b>Participatio</b> Representation, Liberal democracy (NS) - Information society, Radical democracy (G)

In case, it escaped anyone, the above processes/dynamics show how much in common the Mullah, Missionary, Marxists movements have in Common - their shared goals, methods etc. <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo--> What is the "Hindu" response to the above? Would that adequately define a framework? (atleast the beginnings of one)?

In my mind, a Hindu State/Rashtra would be firmly based on Hindu principles. While I am not yet sure what forms these will take to suit the modern world, I remain convinced that it has to transcend concepts such as democracy, secularism, Equality, Individualism, Globalization and human rights. Most of these concepts are products of the experience of the "west" and their natural evolution to its current state. We do not need any lecture from other civilizations on how to run a fair and just society in peace with itself and its neighbors and an economic force to reckon with.

We will have to come up with our own unique concepts in a true Hindu/Dharmic state. We will have to come up with our own unique institutions, which promote the culture of our land. We should not be afraid to look at concepts which do not include "untouchable" categories such as one man, one vote, secularism and other such haloed conepts of the West. Our confidence to devise our own systems needs to come from our confidence in the superiority of our culture over the current precepts of the west. This is not to say that Hindu society was perfect. Rather our society's evolution stopped with the advent of foreign rule a 1000 years ago. Some major cultural, spiritual and political weakneses of hindu society allowed a 1000 years of domination by monotheistic motivated forces of our Dharmic land. Our major challenge continues to be the erosion of our Dharmic precepts and with that a major dilution in our sense of identity. History is witness to the fact that no civilization has come out ahead without a strong sense of identity. India will have to reclaim this sense of her identity and only then we will find a rightful place among leading nations of the world.

If the present trend of social changes continue in India, it is impossible to have a Hindu Rashtra in the next one century. Please look around the present day Indian sociey, the erosion of values and change of life style. You will understand the improbability of any such change.

<!--emo&:cool--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/specool.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='specool.gif' /><!--endemo--> Ravish,
Here is a true instance of paradigm shift in culture:
A gr8 man inspired every1 in the society to construct a temple. He dies and his family members come even from India to USA on his death anniversary. Everybody in USA is saying 'Namaste' but his grandaughter who came to speak on this sombre occasion greets every1 with hi; of course, it was not hai-hai.
So what do u expect from ordinary mortals?

IMO Hindu Rashtra should be based on only one thing: Truth.

Everything else is a corollary.

Report the truth..in history, news..everything.

Hinduism asks for the truth (like "most birds can fly. Elephants cannot.")
Abrahamic religions demand the "revealed" truth (read: hallucinations of people who are too lazy to undertake any scientific inquiry into anything and who have this BS concept that "God" is somehow separate and distinct from science)
eg Earth was created 6000 yrs ago....and other gems, too numerous to recount.

Shambhuji,
Gandhiji also preached us to base our life on truth. Have we been able to desist from consuming alcohol? The only State where his great ideal of total prohibition is still in the law books in Gujarat, but here again everyone that matters has an alcohol permit. The rest of the States have ensured that adequate supply is available to the masses. The shops have been allowed to keep open for longer hours so that the Citizens of India are not inconvenienced.
The consumption of alcohol is on the increase. It is not far away that we may have casino and gambling machine in major joints. Who is going to halt all these trends from contemporary India.

<!--QuoteBegin-Ravish+Sep 26 2006, 11:17 PM-->QUOTE(Ravish @ Sep 26 2006, 11:17 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Shambhuji,
Gandhiji also preached us to base our life on truth. Have we been able to desist from consuming alcohol? The only State where his great ideal of total prohibition is still in the law books in Gujarat, but here again everyone that matters has an alcohol permit. The rest of the States have ensured that adequate supply is available to the masses. The shops have been allowed to keep open for longer hours so that the Citizens of India are not inconvenienced.
The consumption of alcohol is on the increase. It is not far away that we may have casino and gambling machine in major joints. Who is going to halt all these trends from contemporary India.
[right][snapback]58002[/snapback][/right]
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What is wrong with gambling and drinking ?

Cag

A counterquestion:
What is Hindutva wrt running the state?

I will rely on the Indian supreme court judgements on the this question. Hindutva or Indianness or Indian culture are synonyms for each other. Hindutva has nothing to do with running the state in any direct manner. The view as aspoused by our supreme court was whole heartedly endorsed by the so called Hindu right.

The SC judgement was the SC's, but what exactly is Ram Rajya? Serious question- am not trying to bait you or your POV here.

Edit: Nevermind.

The problem is that while some people in the RSS may not want theocracy, there are some others who are muddled about it. I have heard VHP/ Baj. Dal speakers who want to bring Ram Rajya about -literally. And nor is it Ram Rajya in the metaphorical sense of an ideal state.

They are themselves unclear about what exactly a) They mean by it and b) What they want from it and c) The long term ramifications. They are caught up in a whirlpool of their own religious justification for every thing- using "Hindutva" as an excuse for their rampage on theaters to card shops. Is this what RR will be like? Their own actions indicate their confusion on this aspect.

Nor do I buy the fact that the senior leadership etc have everything well thought out, and can restrain the impulsive youth- if we see Gujarat, its clear that a) Either the leadership aids & abets or b) It lets things be since matters have come to a boil & it cant stop a chain reaction. Either ways, a religion based movement running the state on the basis of religion when many of its rank & file are conflating their personal dislike for activities such as V-Day or whatever with religion, is grounds for skepticism.

Third point- its good that the RSS et al strive to unite Hindu society, fight against casteism, defend it, but when they start making decisions for me, I have a problem, and in the past they have done so in a manner of speaking. So have the Congress etc- but, arent the Sangh & co supposed to be different and I would prefer that my religion & my lifestyle choices are best left to me to practise, and I particularly dislike anyone else telling me what I must do as compared to what I may do. Bloody Sushma Swaraj deciding that I must listen to bhajans in the train is stupid of her. Same female not putting Condoms ads on TV out of prudishness when we have 3.5 Million infected, is stupid. Thats where her personal issues become the nations problem. Multiply this conservatism times thousand, and yes, there are issues.

Fourth- the Sangh parivar concept of a religious revival is good, but their frequent resort to violence @ the drop of a hat leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Defending when forced to do so is one thing, without getting into too many details- I can also say that they have also taken it to the other extreme. And in that case, I dont like religion being used as an excuse for their own stupidity by some Sangh cadre & the former being unable to reign them in or even punish them or aid in their being brought to justice .

Fifth- the RSS should stay away from politics, period. Hinduism is still going through reform, it needs a lot of introspection before it clears itself of assorted detritus picked up through the years and rises back to its full potential & what it was. Ordinary Indians have become attuned to finding religious excuses for their own loathsome antics, and then using those excuses to continue. Yeh to "parampara hain". In such a milieu, a religious movement which becomes political, will draw the worst kind of scum in India- including the Chandraswamis who will then use the religion as a means to political capital. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and the same analogy to some sense also holds true to why the IA should stay away from ruling India etc. You want the Sangh to remain true, dont give them power.

Lastly, the Sangh itself needs to focus on what its Hindutva movement means and undertake serious introspection, some ideas are ok, some are borderline and some I feel are plainly wrong, and can be ascribed to the leadership of the Sangh who are old & out of touch with practicality. I will stop here, but in a nutshell - these encompass why I feel the SC judgement apart, the Hindutva movement lacks clear goals and is often stuck in reactionary mode, which make it undertake more reactionary positions for getting their voice heard. This in turn damages their own movement, and b) is taken seriously by their rank & file, many of whom need a)proper education b) employment & c) a cool head rather than always reacting with their fists and stones against whatever they feel is wrong. It is these last who think that some kind of Ram Rajya/ theocracy in a literal sense will wipe out India's ills. I dont agree with that.


PostPosted: 30 Sep 2006 01:53 am
JCage ... I don't think you know Sang Parivar as well as you claim to do. If you knew any significant bit about RSS, you wouldn't be saying things like
Quote:
Sangh Parivar concept of a religious revival is good, but their frequent resort to violence @ the drop of a hat leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

Quote:

RSS should stay away from politics

You are confusing RSS, Sangh Parivar and BJP. This is not your fault, but RSS's fault for not clarifying things enough times. As much you like to believe, RSS, Sangh Parivar and BJP are not one and same. RSS leadership neither micromanages BJP and nor they have the desire to do so. This is directly coming from the Mohan Bhagwat, 2nd in command of RSS. They have better things to do. According to RSS, India is a democracy and correct things will happen only if the people demand it. RSS work is to only raise awareness among the people.

RSS's mission is to take Bharat to the Param Vaibhav (Pinnacle of Glory). They believe the way to do it to make every citizen of India a swayamsevak (loosely a model citizen) and active participant in the daily life of nation.

You seem to have to more knowledge than most people about Sangh Parivar, but you are also slave to the propaganda spewed out by media. I would urge you to spend more time with RSS people before you make such large categorical statements about RSS and Sangh Parivar.

Meanwhile, check out this video showcasing the 70,000 service projects run by RSS Swayamsevaks all over India http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...9441914390

<!--QuoteBegin-Ravish+Sep 26 2006, 11:17 PM-->QUOTE(Ravish @ Sep 26 2006, 11:17 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Shambhuji,
Gandhiji also preached us to base our life on truth. Have we been able to desist from consuming alcohol? The only State where his great ideal of total prohibition is still in the law books in Gujarat, but here again everyone that matters has an alcohol permit. The rest of the States have ensured that adequate supply is available to the masses. The shops have been allowed to keep open for longer hours so that the Citizens of India are not inconvenienced.
The consumption of alcohol is on the increase. It is not far away that we may have casino and gambling machine in major joints. Who is going to halt all these trends from contemporary India.
[right][snapback]58002[/snapback][/right]
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Ravishji,

I did not mention Gandhi in my post. I am no Gandhi lover (though not a Gandhi hater either).

The truth I mentioned is not about alcohol or whatever. The truth is about
1. India's central position in the world long ago
2. How this position was destroyed
3. How Hinduism was copied, bastardized, bent out of recognition, and sold as "new and improved": other "religions" aggressively sprang up through violence while being morally, philosophically, spiritually nothing more than Clubs. More the merrier, membership perks increase with numbers..that sort of BS..God is non-existent, and any attempt to seek God is choked out with prissy little rules. Google up on Kaaba/Hindu Temple, Elst/Mohammed Wahi, Frawley....

This is the truth I need a Hindu Rashtra to speak. No shying away from truth just because it "hurts minorities". In short, a Hindu Nation has to have balls.

I have no problem with alcohol. Or anything else at all, as long as you stick to the truth.

<!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Can anyone clue me in on Indian intellectuals opposition to "Nationalism" (as it relates to Indian/Hindu context), borrowing european ideas opposing nationalism will not do <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo-->. For exmaple, IID (Indian Intellectual Dorks), conflate racism/exclusionary movements et al - European experience etc, to Indian/Hindu nationalism (if there is such a thing), and dump on it.

The same IIDss however, do not have problem with sub-nationalist movements, as long as they are not Hindu. Anyways, wanted to see if we can get to what Hindu Rashtra <b>is not</b>, rather than what it is - at least at this point.