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+--- Thread: The Real Indian IQ (/showthread.php?tid=328)
The Real Indian IQ - G.Subramaniam - 05-09-2008
Indian IQ is not unimodal like other countries ( a single bell curve )
There are at least 43000 endogamous castes and each has its own bell curve
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http://www.isteve.com/IQ_Table.htm
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IQ of Indians in India = 81
This consists of 4 studies, in MP, UP, Bihar and Orissa
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South Africa
--
Indians = 83
Whites = 94
Blacks = 66
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Fiji Indians = 84
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Indians in Fiji and South Africa were from coolie class, mostly MBC and Dalit
In Fiji and South Africa the Indians are not starving
So it can be considered a fair score that the MBC-Dalit average IQ is 84
The Real Indian IQ - G.Subramaniam - 05-09-2008
Indian IQ in Singapore
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Indians in Singapore again are mostly coolie class tamils
Before 1950, brahmins did not travel overseas due to loss of caste
The singapore therefore has very few tambrams
Singapore also has no poverty
The Indian community in Singapore also includes some sikhs, north Indians and Chettiars ( tamil banias )
The singapore Indian IQ is not given directly, but can be interpolated
The singapore Indian IQ reflects more towards the middle of the spectrum
as opposed to Fiji which is low end
Indian Hi-IQ people are absent here
http://www.isteve.com/IQ_Table.htm
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Singapore Chinese = 108
Singapore Malays = 92
108 can be considered the upper limit for worldwide chinese scores, who are very homogenous
Incidentally Hongkong Chinese = 107
Beijing , Shanghai Chinese = 100
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IQ = Average of Verbal score + Math Score
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http://www.getforme.com/previous2007/14120...7-2006_more.htm
has Performance for each ethnic group in Singapore
2006 English score
Chinese = 97.9
Indian = 98.3
2006 Math Score
Chinese = 90.3
Indian = 74.7
Malay = 58.9
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From this we can say that the Indian verbal score is equal to the chinese verbal score and the Indian math score is midway between the malay and chinese scores
Estimated Singapore Indian IQ = 0.5 x 108 + 0.5x ( 0.5 x ( 92+108)) = 100
The Real Indian IQ - Bharatvarsh - 05-09-2008
I would say that is a good estimate right now but with development we may see it raise up to 90 maybe (Flynn effect). That would put it at the avg worldwide IQ, but I suspect that our IQ has a lot more variation in it than the much higher Chinese or South Korean IQs which would be advantageous, because there are so many endogamous groups.
Also higher IQ doesn't always seem to translate into higher achievement, most East Asian countries have higher IQs but barring modern times where some of them have become developed countries they have always been influenced by Indian culture and ideas not the other way around, even China and Japan have huge Indian influence through Buddhism.
The IQ of Indians in the West (I mean UK, Canada, US etc) is not a good representation of the average Indian IQ since these groups are self selected immigrants, but neither are the samples from Fiji etc where the early indentured servants mostly tended to be from one region of India (UP) and poor.
Also culture and religion seems to play a big role in achievement, the best example is UK where Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims all immigrated around the same time, 30 or 40 years later the Hindus and Sikhs are well off while the Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslims are at the bottom, of course one may say that Pakistani inbreeding and the consequent mental retardation contributes to this as well, but as far as I know Bangladeshis don't have this practice and they are still at the bottom.
The Real Indian IQ - G.Subramaniam - 05-09-2008
<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+May 9 2008, 05:52 PM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ May 9 2008, 05:52 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I would say that is a good estimate right now but with development we may see it raise up to 90 maybe (Flynn effect). That would put it at the avg worldwide IQ, but I suspect that our IQ has a lot more variation in it than the much higher Chinese or South Korean IQs which would be advantageous, because there are so many endogamous groups.
Also higher IQ doesn't always seem to translate into higher achievement, most East Asian countries have higher IQs but barring modern times where some of them have become developed countries they have always been influenced by Indian culture and ideas not the other way around, even China and Japan have huge Indian influence through Buddhism.
The IQ of Indians in the West (I mean UK, Canada, US etc) is not a good representation of the average Indian IQ since these groups are self selected immigrants, but neither are the samples from Fiji etc where the early indentured servants mostly tended to be from one region of India (UP) and poor.
Also culture and religion seems to play a big role in achievement, the best example is UK where Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims all immigrated around the same time, 30 or 40 years later the Hindus and Sikhs are well off while the Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslims are at the bottom, of course one may say that Pakistani inbreeding and the consequent mental retardation contributes to this as well, but as far as I know Bangladeshis don't have this practice and they are still at the bottom.
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Indian IQ varies all over the place depending on caste
Chinese IQ is homogenous
The Real Indian IQ - G.Subramaniam - 05-09-2008
IQ is 80% genetic and 20% cultural
Let us talk about the Flynn Effect
The Flynn effect says that if 3rd world people migrate to the west, after 1 generation, due to better food, better schools etc, the IQ of the immigrant will rise
In UK, 2nd Generation Indians
Mostly Patels and Sikhs , very few brahmins unlike USA,
the 2nd generation UK Indian IQ ( middle castes ) = 97
The 2nd generation UK Pakistan IQ ( middle castes ) = 91
The 2nd generation Bangladeshi IQ ( Dalit Caste ) = 87
Bangladeshis are mostly Namasudras, a Dalit caste that mass converted to islam
The Islam IQ penalty = 6
Middle Caste to Dalit IQ penalty = 4
The Real Indian IQ - G.Subramaniam - 05-09-2008
The Chinese IQ advantage
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The North Asians, Han Chinese, Koreans and Japanese
had to endure a very severe ice age pressure and only a FEW and the brightest survived, this genetically screened for higher IQ and since only a few survived, they were also much more homogenous
What this means is that average chinese IQ is high, but the bell curve is narrow
In contrast, most races have a wide and flat bell curve and the upper reaches of the bell curve go much higher
In addition, the mandarin exams were open to all classes unlike India were only the dwijas got to know sanskrit
While definitively the average chinese IQ is higher, the real Indian average is better than 81, and on the high end, Indians have advantages
Hindu religion and philosophy and caste system has created several Hi-IQ pockets > 120
The Real Indian IQ - G.Subramaniam - 05-09-2008
Explaining the Indian 81 IQ
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India has a malnutrition level as bad as Sub-Saharan Africa
A large number of children are under weight
Malnutrition during pregnancy and infancy stunts IQ
A large number of Indians are vegetarian and those who are poor cant afford nuts etc as meat substitutes
The IQ tests may not have been adjusted for caste
The IQ tests were done in the most backward part of India, namely UP, Bihar, MP and Orissa
Much of North Indian IQ has been truncated by muslims selectively massacring higher IQ people
The literacy rate in india is only 65% vs 90% in china and this would affect the non-genetic IQ component
African Americans have an IQ = 85
With Adequate nutrition, and schooling, I expect Indian Dalits to reach 85 IQ
But we have soon 17% muslims at nearly Dalit levels
Islam has cost them 6 points
This would put the average at say 90
The Real Indian IQ - G.Subramaniam - 05-09-2008
The north south IQ gradient in India
------------------------------------
While the caste IQ gradient from brahmin to Dalit is well known , there is also
a north to south IQ gradient
IQ increases while travelling south
White Racists who are fond of Aryan Invasion Theory are finding it very hard to swallow. I have a website where one of them says that Darker Indian NRIs are brighter
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Let me digress and take a look at south America
The current IQ for native Amerinds is 86
With an iQ of 86, one cannot create the Aztec and Maya and Inca civilizations, it is simply impossible
What happened is this
The colonialists killed off the elite and used the masses for slave labor
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The same thing happened in north India with the islamic invasions
The muslims disproportionately killed off the more prominent people to terrorise the rest
Each time muslims destroyed a temple , they also killed thousands of brahmins
I am just saying that north Indian hindus who were higher IQ took the brunt of islamic savagery
--
North Indians who survived are still under islamic stress and this affects the non-genetic aspect of IQ
In UP, muslims are 33% in urban areas and it must be stressful for hindus
A kashmiri pandit in a refugee camp is under much more stress than a Tambram in Chennai
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A look at the IQ of the LTTE
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The LTTE has used several highly sophisticated methods to do commando raids in sri lanka, these kind of stuff is far beyond the capability of any jihadist
I would say that LTTE IQ ( Tamil Upper Caste IQ ) is very close to brahmin level IQ
Overall the LTTE operation is very smooth compared to the stupid Al-Qaida
LTTE IQ > 115
The Real Indian IQ - G.Subramaniam - 05-09-2008
An estimate of IQ of IIT
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I have 150 IQ ( 1450 verbal + math in GRE )
I did not get into IIT for variety of reasons, but I knew people who got in
and I would estimate that 150 IQ is the entry level for IIT
The north asian bell curve being narrow, probably has fewer very high IQ, > 140
The Real Indian IQ - G.Subramaniam - 05-09-2008
Ashkenazi vs Marwari IQ
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Ashkenazi IQ is 120
The Marwaris have defeated them in the brussels diamond business
which would make Marwari IQ > 120
The Real Indian IQ - G.Subramaniam - 05-09-2008
REC IQ
I went to REC Trichy and 25% of them got more than 1250 on GRE
meaning top 25% had IQ > 130
In the US, 130 IQ can get a PhD in a smaller univ
The Real Indian IQ - G.Subramaniam - 05-09-2008
IQ estimation from NRI kids SAT
Assume NRI = 25% tambram + 75% patel = Average All India Dwija
NRI kids score in SAT at IQ = 117
Meaning Indian Dwija IQ > 115
Indian Dwijas are 15% of population
Consider white countries
Their average IQ = 100 and
Standard Deviation = 15
Meaning only 15% will score more than 115 IQ
The Real Indian IQ - G.Subramaniam - 05-09-2008
Indian Civilising of South east Asia
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North east Asia has IQ = 105, and was already civilised
South east Asia has IQ = 90
Philipines = 89
Thailand = 91
Hence they were uncivilised and needed Indian help to get civilised
The Real Indian IQ - Bharatvarsh - 05-09-2008
G.Sub while these assumptions may be correct, they cannot compensate for hard data, there seem to be very few IQ tests conducted in India, and even the ones conducted have been confined to certain areas.
Unlike in the case of demographics we have no hard data and are left to speculate based on things like performance on GRE which may correlate with high IQ but does not tell us the entire story, let me give an example, Srinivasa Ramanujan flunked all other subjects except Maths because he didn't find the others interesting, now on things like SAT and other tests his Maths score would have been off the charts but quite poor in other components, if you based your IQ on his SAT score he would have come up with some avg IQ like 120, but I strongly suspect that his IQ was much higher. That is why there is no substitute for hard data based on IQ tests administered with as little cultural bias as possible.
You also raised another important point, the disparity in literacy rates between India and China, all IQ tests have components which tap acquired knowledge, and this also plays a role in the comparitively low IQ of Indians.
Also correct me if I am wrong, the 13 or so IQ tests which Steve Sailer uses in his article on Indians were conducted between 1940s and 1980s when India was much more poorer and illiterate, so I suspect that there may have been a slight increase in the current IQ with an improving diet and economy (thanks to abandoning socialism of Nehru).
The Real Indian IQ - Bodhi - 05-09-2008
for India -
metro:other-urban:rural:tribal segmentation?
gender segmentation?
age-demographics has any role?
any idea on jains?
religious attitude break-up (religious-nonreligious) play a role?
what about areas that were not subjugated by muhammedan savagery? e.g. North East, esp Assam? Nepal? Tibet?
The Real Indian IQ - Bharatvarsh - 05-09-2008
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->metro:other-urban:rural:tribal segmentation?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suspect the urban population has a higher IQ, there are a multitude of reasons for this, chief among them are literacy, better nutrition, and health care. It is the same thing with height, urban pop is taller on avg, and 2nd generation NRI kids will tend to be taller than Indians (due to diet, healthcare etc). I cannot speculate on the IQ of tribals without any hard data.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->gender segmentation?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Specifically for India, I have no idea, but in general girls have superior verbal ability at least in the early years, from age 10 onwards boys show greater visuo-spatial and mathematical abilities, this difference has been found consistently across many studies.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->age-demographics has any role?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IQ is calculated as Mental Age/ Chronological Age * 100.
The Mental Age you are assigned is based on your IQ score, now beyond a certain point your IQ scores stop increasing and you stabilize, but your CA keeps increasing, so there is a decline in IQ with aging I think.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->any idea on jains?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, but from what I know a number of Marwaris are Jain, so their IQ must be quite high, although you can't generalize that to the Jains in Karnataka.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->religious attitude break-up (religious-nonreligious) play a role?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not sure about this, haven't come across any studies comparing IQ scores of nonreligious (atheist, agnostic etc but without any belief in Karma like the Jains) and religious.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->what about areas that were not subjugated by muhammedan savagery? e.g. North East, esp Assam? Nepal? Tibet? <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is a good question, and sorry to say there haven't been many studies in those areas from what I know.
But I suspect their IQ to be higher, also some of the tribes in North East are migrants from China in the last few centuries, and Chinese have high IQs, so the same may be true for them.
The explanation offered by G.Sub makes sense, in the North Muslims often selectively targeted the elite, while the South and North East escaped any such large scale ravages, so that should also play a role in IQ variance within India.
The problem with India is that unlike China or South Korea it is a highly diverse society with thousands of endogamous castes, and in cases like that it is hard to generalize findings from one region or one caste to the rest of the country.
On a separate note many "educated" Indians in my observation seem to be very ignorant of the latest findings and repeat the dogma they were taught in school that all of us have equal abilities and all the differences are due to environment, nothing could be further from the truth, a substantial amount of our characteristics are inherited. Here are some stats I found in a book:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Relationship of Family members      Correlation between IQ scores
Identical twins reared together               .86
Identical twins reared apart                  .79
Fraternal twins reared together               .60
Siblings reared together                    .47
Parent and child                         .40
Foster parent and child                    .31
Siblings reared apart                      .24
Cousins                               .15<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These stats are compiled based on 111 studies all over the world and can be found in Child Psychology: A Contemporary View Point (2nd Canadian Edition).
The closer the genetic relation between 2 people, the higher the correlation between their IQ scores.
There are also consistent IQ differences between ethnic groups, for example Black Americans avg IQ is 85 and has stayed there for the past decade (up from 70 in the earlier era due to the Flynn effect) while Americans of European descent average 100, and Hispanic Americans avg around 90.
Now of course come out a flurry of explanations about how IQ tests are culturally biased etc, but are they only biased against African Americans?
Because even with the bias present we see the Chinese avg score being over a 100, also keep in mind that these tests were developed in the West primarily and hence should be even more biased against the Chinese than African Americans (who are more American than African and have been there for centuries in US). Also keep in mind that the average African American is better off when compared to the average Chinese in terms of health care, nutrition, wealth etc because America is a developed country, and even its poorest sections have a far better life than the avg low income person in Africa, China, India, or Brazil.
Whether the IQ differences between different nationalities are due to genes, environment, or an interaction between the 2 factors is a different topic altogether, but IQ differences have been consistently found and there is no escaping this fact by shouting Manuvadi or some other epithet like many "educated" Indians seem to do.
The Real Indian IQ - Pandyan - 05-10-2008
G. Sub, would you happen to have source for SAT scores of NRI kids? And also a source that shows correlation between GRE score and IQ? What would you say average Indian IQ is (or could be)? Disregarding factors like nutrition and living condition. Also I have noticed different religious groups, even of same ethnicity have highly different IQs, so religion also plays a role.
The Real Indian IQ - Pandyan - 05-10-2008
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+May 9 2008, 07:33 AM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ May 9 2008, 07:33 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->the 2nd generation UK Indian IQ ( middle castes ) = 97<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
G. Sub, I believe Indian kids in UK outdo their white counterparts in all standardized tests, administered both publicly and privately. White IQ in UK is supposed to be at 100, therefore your estimation of 97 should be a little higher than 100. Only people who outdo Indians in UK are Chinese, but by very little. I would say UK presents us with best environment for estimating avg Indian IQ, since background of UK Indian immigrants is not extracted from upper caste alone, like it is in the US.
http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/003749.html
The Real Indian IQ - Bharatvarsh - 05-10-2008
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->presents us with best environment for estimating avg Indian IQ, since background of UK Indian immigrants is not extracted from upper caste alone, like it is in the US. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually Canada is also very similar, you have Panjabis as largest group (most sikh but also Hindus and predominantly middle castes like jats), the Hindi speakers (not sure what castes), Eelam Tamils (Vellalas and some other castes, almost no Brahmins), Gujaratis (Middle castes, mostly Kolis and Patels).
While its a better sample than US its still skewed because all these people are self selected immigrants both in UK and Canada.
The Real Indian IQ - G.Subramaniam - 05-10-2008
<!--QuoteBegin-Pandyan+May 10 2008, 12:17 AM-->QUOTE(Pandyan @ May 10 2008, 12:17 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->G. Sub, would you happen to have source for SAT scores of NRI kids? And also a source that shows correlation between GRE score and IQ? What would you say average Indian IQ is (or could be)? Disregarding factors like nutrition and living condition. Also I have noticed different religious groups, even of same ethnicity have highly different IQs, so religion also plays a role.
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http://www.arthurhu.com/index/relig.htm
2001 UPDATE: SATs and Religion
The affiliations that rank as the top 10 based on average SAT scores
of college bound seniors last year, all races.
1. 1209 Unitarian Universalist Association
2. 1161 Judaism [The Jews]
3. 1153 Quaker
4. 1110 Hinduism [Indo Americans]
5. 1097 Mennonite
6. 1097 Reformed Church in America
7. 1096 Episcopal ##
8. 1094 Evang Lutheran Church in America ##
9. 1092 Presbyterian USA (USA) ##
10. 1073 Baha'i
1020 National Average