Miscellaneous Topics discussion

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Miscellaneous Topics discussion - dhu - 10-19-2007

He refers to Deschner who has not been translated.

QUOTEÂ© He claims that the Orthodox Churches, because they represent
'Eastern Christianity', are tolerant. One could interpret his claims
in a charitable way and assume that he is saying the following:
somehow, 'Eastern Christianity' is more prone to being more tolerant
in civic life than 'Western Christianity'. I disagree with this claim
on historical grounds. The history of 'Eastern Christianity' is every
bit as violent as the history of the 'Western Christianity'. [For
those who know German, I would suggest the following work of Karlheinz
Deschner. He has so far written 6 volumes of the history of
Christianity, called, Kriminalgeschichte des Christentums. The title
translates as "The Criminal History of Christianities" and the first
six volumes are about 'Eastern Christianity'.]

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - Guest - 10-19-2007

QUOTE(dhu @ Oct 19 2007, 12:46 AM)He refers to Deschner who has not been translated.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEÂ© He claims that the Orthodox Churches, because they represent
'Eastern Christianity', are tolerant. One could interpret his claims
in a charitable way and assume that he is saying the following:
somehow, 'Eastern Christianity' is more prone to being more tolerant
in civic life than 'Western Christianity'. I disagree with this claim
on historical grounds. The history of 'Eastern Christianity' is every
bit as violent as the history of the 'Western Christianity'. [For
those who know German, I would suggest the following work of Karlheinz
Deschner. He has so far written 6 volumes of the history of
Christianity, called, Kriminalgeschichte des Christentums. The title
translates as "The Criminal History of Christianities" and the first
six volumes are about 'Eastern Christianity'.]
[right][snapback]74400[/snapback][/right]
</div>
Revealing the mistery behinde the 'tolerance' of orthodox christians.
First of all ,persecutions against pagans and heretics was not uncommon in the orthodox world(persecution of paulicians,russian inquisition to name a few) .
So were these 'tolerance' came from?
1-there was alwais a curent in christian world that have more positive aproach to pagans and heretics and for the rigth free will in choosing religion.These curent didnt impose as the rule,was more like the exception.
2-starting whit 14 century(even earlier in some cases),in bysantine world we witness the birth of a movement equivalent to western humanism.However these curent didnt become seculare(was more like a divino-humanism) and didnt have the power of western humanism.STil it has a role in some monahal reforms and hysichast movement).
3-this tolerant curent become a force only in the last 200 years.Orthodox(priest or simple belivers) today like to see them selfs as tolerant, victims of agresive catholics(or muslims),working on the inside self in contrast whit material external catholic view.
But these make orthodox tolerant? while still claim-the pagans/heretics are siners for their wrong views.
Unlike their predecesors,orthodox today put the accent on the devensive intolerance-do not talk whit heretics,do not read heretic books(yes this is a sin,one of the 9 church comands),do not pray whit a heretic/pagan,do not even wash next to a heretic/pagan.And orthodox indeed see the heathens as deluded by satan.
While western christians in some denominations put the accent on ofensive intolerance-convert the heretic/pagan by any means(force,coruption etc),destroy the heathen.
Also,if you read the military doctrine of the bysantine empire,you gona observ the defensive spirit there in contrast whit ofensive spirit of catholic and muslim war doctrines.
Orthodox intolerance is mingled today especialy whit nationalism .In Russia others religions are not welcomed if they are not part of the 5 NATIONAL russian religions(orthodox,islam,buddhism,judaism etc).
In Greece orthodoxy is part of national identity(even atheist greek claim to be orthodox) and non-greek orthodox are not welcomed as well.

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - Guest - 10-20-2007

QUOTEBut these make orthodox tolerant? while still claim-the pagans/heretics are siners for their wrong views.
Unlike their predecesors,orthodox today put the accent on the devensive intolerance-do not talk whit heretics,do not read heretic books(yes this is a sin,one of the 9 church comands),do not pray whit a heretic/pagan,do not even wash next to a heretic/pagan.And orthodox indeed see the heathens as deluded by satan.
I really do prefer Orthodox christianity. If what they believe does not hurt me or others who aren't believers, I'm not bothered that they think I am going to hell.
Of course, commands like "do not read heretic books" are detrimental to the adherents: they are denied a journey of personal discovery.

QUOTEWhile western christians in some denominations put the accent on ofensive intolerance-convert the heretic/pagan by any means(force,coruption etc),destroy the heathen.
Also,if you read the military doctrine of the bysantine empire,you gona observ the defensive spirit there in contrast whit ofensive spirit of catholic and muslim war doctrines.Yes, it is a huge difference. It makes all the difference in the end. One of the two is something others can live with (the Eastern one); while the other (western christianity) refuses the right of others to exist.

QUOTEOrthodox intolerance is mingled today especialy whit nationalism .In Russia others religions are not welcomed if they are not part of the 5 NATIONAL russian religions(orthodox,islam,buddhism,judaism etc).What is the 5th I wonder. After all, Stalin killed many Siberians who were still practising their ancient religion, so I don't think that's the one...

Russia should replace islam in that list of 5 with original Russian religions instead (like Siberian shamanism and Old Slavic religion). Islam is detrimental to Russia - the strife with Chechnya can eventually take over islamics in the rest of Russia and then there will be enemies on the inside. The country can recognise islam without welcoming it.

Buddhism is indeed ancient to the region, so it makes sense that it is counted. The HinduWisdom site had some article(s) on how the Burhats/Buryats of Siberia were Hindu before historically becoming Buddhist - though they still have some Hindu Gods like Mahendra. But otherwise I can see why a country which is religiously non-proselytising does not welcome a very modern proselytising branch of Hinduism. I don't like proselytisation except where old religions get their own people back (as in Hellenismos getting Greeks back, or Hinduism getting historically Hindu people in Indian subcontinent/SE Asia back, Zoroastrianism getting Persia back, or Taoism getting Taoists back... that sort of thing). I fully support the latter. (Of course I also approve of individuals researching/discovering a religion on their own and then considering themselves an adherent - but such a process is entirely different from others proselytising.)

QUOTEIn Greece orthodoxy is part of national identity(even atheist greek claim to be orthodox) and non-greek orthodox are not welcomed as well.Greece has to allow Hellenismos. It should be allowed to return. Hellenismos is the only thing that will ever revive Greece; because it is the very spirit of Greece and Greek culture. When it was stifled, the country diminished terribly. I can't imagine how they ever thought they could thrive without Apollo and Artemis. I hope their Real religion may become their national identity again.

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - dhu - 10-28-2007

QUOTERevealing the mistery behinde the 'tolerance' of orthodox christians.

Finally!!! We can now throw away Deschner and Balagangadhara.

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - Guest - 10-29-2007

QUOTE(dhu @ Oct 28 2007, 09:49 PM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTERevealing the mistery behinde the 'tolerance' of orthodox christians.Finally!!! We can now throw away Deschner and Balagangadhara.[right][snapback]74632[/snapback][/right]</div>Can you point me to Balagangadhara's writings on this topic, would like to read it.

I've not read Deschner on the Eastern church (only read some of his writings on the old christian church as well as a little catholicism-protestantism stuff). It's very much true that Eastern christianism destroyed Greece and other eastern cultures; and there were also persecutions during medieval times of various 'heretic' cults, with at least one instance where I think I recall the victims to number a hundred thousand or so.
Yes, here - Joseph McCabe writes in Story of Religious Controversy:
QUOTEOne of the most famous heretics of the Greek Church, Paul of Samosata, was the son of a Manichaean mother and his heresy combined the Manichaean principle of two supreme powers with an early form of Protestantism or evangelical Christianity. The Greek Church and Empire -- which, let us remember, had never been tainted by barbarian invasions -- were now, in the eighth century, appallingly corrupt, and this purer religion, as it was, spread widely, especially among the Armenians. Emperor after emperor tried to suppress it. The Empress Theodora put to death no less than one hundred thousand members of the sect; or, in a few years, made fifty times as many martyrs as the pagans had in three centuries. Finally, in the tenth century, no less than two hundred thousand members of the sect were transplanted from Armenia to Thrace, to form a living bulwark against the encroachments of the Bulgars.

But within a short time the worthy Paulicians had spread their gospel peacefully among the Bulgars, and Europe was confronted with a new heresy, the Bogomiles. You have probably never heard of the Bogomiles, but you will surely have heard of those famous heretics of the south of France, the Albigensians, who were drowned by the greatest of the Popes, Innocent III, in their own blood. They (and the Waldensians, the Cathari, the Patarenes, and other obscure bodies of the time) were inspired by the Bogomiles and had the same tincture of Manichaean ideas. The orthodox Catholics of France called them bougres (Bulgars) and it was thus that the innocent name of a people became the worst swear-word of French and English tongues. They were reproached with having a pope in Bulgaria. In short, from the tenth century onward this revolt against orthodox Christianity and its corrupt priests and monks spread over Europe like a prairie fire.Even taking into account such things, when it comes to the overall track-record of christianity, the eastern church is still miles off from the ever-growing record of horrors that the catholic-protestant church continues to gleefully accrue/commit.
Next to that - and I might be wrong - but I don't think the orthodox church in Europe or Russia is going about missionizing (=terrorising) the rest of the world these days. Whereas the catholic-protestant sheep are still drunk on it.

In that way there is a difference between the two - nowadays. Defensive vs offensive christianity is a somewhat indicative description. With eastern christianity, christianist persecution of others is limited to their own countries (for instance as in how Ancient Greek temples continue to be destroyed in Greece and how people who continue to follow Greek Religion are persecuted). Meanwhile, catholicism-protestantism isn't content with tormenting its own (example: paedophilia); it must bring the rest of the world into its orbit of misery as well (through missonary-terrorism).
You're right: it's all nasty. Just thinking that where it concerns us - or native Americans, or the rest of the world's unconverted (that is, the 'heathen' lands) - we're more directly affected by western christianism.

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - dhu - 10-29-2007

Balagangadhara has no writings on this topic as far as I am aware. He points to Deschner to argue that Orthodoxy is as blood soaked as western christianity. He also states that Tolerant Christianity is at most a misnomer for "civic virtue" which was an intra-christian development at the end of the reformist heresy. These were the arguments that Balagangadhara made on the Sulekha board under article of one Alex Alexander.

The counterpart of western colonialism and subjugation of the Americas is Orthodoxy's conquest of Siberia. Communism must also be included in the list of Orthodox exports, just as we subsume colonialism under the phenomenon of western christianity. Also we must consider Orthodoxy's relative sedateness to be a response to dhimmi status under Ottomans.

<img src='http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b6/Surikov_Pokoreniye_Sibiri_Yermakom.jpg/800px-Surikov_Pokoreniye_Sibiri_Yermakom.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
larger image

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - Guest - 10-30-2007

That image is disturbingly expressive.
QUOTEThe counterpart of western colonialism and subjugation of the Americas is Orthodoxy's conquest of Siberia.True.
And then in more recent times (according to somethings I read) Russian communism committed genocide once more, when persecuting Siberian Shamanism.

QUOTEAlso we must consider Orthodoxy's relative sedateness to be a response to dhimmi status under Ottomans.Yes I see what you mean. So it correlates somewhat more with christians in Syria, Lebanon and the like. (Although the latter have been under islam for longer now. So it's a degree of similarity with christians in the ME.)

QUOTE(dhu @ Oct 29 2007, 11:02 PM)Communism must also be included in the list of Orthodox exports, just as we subsume colonialism under the phenomenon of western christianity.[right][snapback]74653[/snapback][/right]Not too sure about this. Karl Marx' dad was - I think - a Protestant (convert from Judaism; but Indian christians don't count as Hindus either, so we can ignore the Judaic ancestry).
Regardless, there's nothing original about communism. It was a poor (and ultra-contrived!) rip-off of the comparatively far more spontaneous (to some extent) French Revolution. Marx saw how the historical event succeeded and just did a copycat with as end result that he and his comrade put their names under 'their' thesis.
Communism copied/repeated (and often magnified) all the bad things - and made a mockery of all the good things - of the French Revolution. I've yet to find something original in communism (other than their audacity for extreme lies; actually, that's rather very goebbelsian/hitlerian of the red disease).
What I'm trying to say is this: communism tried to repeat the French Revolution under laboratory conditions. As in, it's contrived: the comrades try to set/present the external conditions such as to recreate the original phenomenon.

But the French Revolution was mostly due to the unnatural casta system of catholic France where the aristocracy was at its very best ignorant of the other castas and at its worst... well that's a horror. (Think car that runs you over and then reverses to run you over again to make sure you're really beyond recovery.)

Not sure communism is something that belongs under Eastern christianism though. It's rather a side-effect/product of western christianism or perhaps just plain vanilla christianism. IMO.

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - Guest - 10-30-2007

The conquest of Siberia is seen by some historians as a revenge against turko-mongols,a kind of response to dominance of Mongol empire.

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - ramana - 10-31-2007

Husky is right. Communism is an aftergrowth of French Revolution to be exported to non catholic and non Christian areas.

Macabe quote:

QUOTEIn short, from the tenth century onward this revolt against orthodox Christianity and its corrupt priests and monks spread over Europe like a prairie fire.


So this is how the reformation movement grew in Western Europe and finally ended in the great split by Luther. I always wondered how did Luther wake suddenly one day and decide ot break with the Roman Catholic papacy.

Need to save this item.

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - dhu - 10-31-2007

QUOTEactually, that's rather very goebbelsian/hitlerian of the red disease).
What I'm trying to say is this: communism tried to repeat the French Revolution under laboratory conditions. As in, it's contrived: the comrades try to set/present the external conditions such as to recreate the original phenomen.

So all these mutations upon Christianity are happening to unify the Internal European space ??

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - Guest - 10-31-2007

QUOTE(dhu @ Oct 31 2007, 01:07 PM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEactually, that's rather very goebbelsian/hitlerian of the red disease).
What I'm trying to say is this: communism tried to repeat the French Revolution under laboratory conditions. As in, it's contrived: the comrades try to set/present the external conditions such as to recreate the original phenomen.

So all these mutations upon Christianity are happening to unify the Internal European space ??[right][snapback]74697[/snapback][/right]</div>I think the reasons are simpler and sadder: the mutations upon christianism are due to semi-random misfortune. Can't find better words - it sounds a bit cryptic even to me, so here follows a long explanation of what I mean.

Ever since christianism was imposed in Europe, there have been splits and 'heresies' and even constructions of religions/sects directly opposed to christianism - but all were offshoots of christianism itself. They sprung up in consequence of christianism and with christianism as their base (it was the only available worldview from which ideas were generated -> therefore ideas were needs derived from the same pool). In other words, we can track all these different mutations back to the original: christianism.

The religion just never sat well with people as a whole (in Europe or elsewhere - would explain the vehement anti-christianity of formerly-christian Koreans in S Korea and some formerly-christian Indians too). So as a result of people having become stuck with an unnatural religion, there's ever been
- groups of people thinking that if they 'went back' to 'just' the bible everything will be okay;
- groups of people thinking that the other streams of christianism are wrong and/or there must be some other deep reveal in it or some 'true' christianism out there somewhere;
(Examples at the end of this post - it has something to do with what Ramana said just above)
- or outright anti-christian movements like communism, western-style secularism and modern missionary kinds of 'atheism' including the confusingly named 'rationalism'. In fact, there have been anti-christian groups going far back: there were certain medieval satanist and other declared anti-christian cults (apparently these are documented: people who willingly admitted to being anti-christian in the dark ages - this is according to Joseph McCabe IIRC).

Going back to what I said at the top: " the mutations upon christianism are due to semi-random misfortune."
- 'Semi-random' as in, Europeans have revolted constantly throughout history against christianism, but in medieval times they did not have sufficient ideas/vocabulary/cosmology to express themselves or think outside the box - that is, ideas were not entirely independent and free from christian influence (or at least after-taint; the Renaissance had such aftertaint/was dabbed with blotting christian ink afterward). This lack of independent expression meant the revolts merely created christian-based 'heresies'. (That's still true of communism and secularism too; but it's even more overtly the case with the early heresies that I will paste examples of below.)
- 'Semi-random' as in, Europeans could not control the expression or outcome of their revolts. These gave birth to mutations - the resulting mutations/ideas and the effects which these gave rise to they could not control, so the birth of these invariably christian-based ideas were inevitable as explained above.

The more I think of it, the more I feel bad about what's happened to Europe. Great damage has been done to their psyche by prolonged exposure to the tyranny of christianism. It's like a child that was regularly beaten by some evil step-'parent' that kidnapped it - it's grown crooked and hunched up when it could have grown up very straight. Abused people often have a tendency to carry out the same abuse themselves. It's all because of the christian meme that they've not been able to shake, and which they are attempting to infect everyone with. Misery loves company and christianism creates misery.

Before I continue:
QUOTE(Honsol @ Oct 30 2007, 09:53 PM)The conquest of Siberia is seen by some historians as a revenge against turko-mongols,a kind of response to dominance of Mongol empire.[right][snapback]74675[/snapback][/right]I thought Siberians were more closely related to the Sami and Fins and possibly Estonians. As in, they're part of the western branch of Finno-Ugric peoples. Whereas Mongolians and Turkic people were part of the Eastern branch, or so I was led to believe. The rest of Russia is plonked in between the two.
I'm almost certain I've seen Finnish sites mention Saami Religion and Siberian Shamanism as being closely related to theirs and more distantly to Hungarian and even more distantly to Turkic and Mongolian.

Ramana:
QUOTE(ramana @ Oct 31 2007, 02:24 AM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEIn short, from the tenth century onward this revolt against orthodox Christianity and its corrupt priests and monks spread over Europe like a prairie fire.
So this is how the reformation movement grew in Western Europe and finally ended in the great split by Luther. I always wondered how did Luther wake suddenly one day and decide ot break with the Roman Catholic papacy.
Need to save this item.
[right][snapback]74681[/snapback][/right]</div>Luther was never the first. There was some famous English dude in medieval times - I *think* it was a John Wyclif or something? - who insisted on the utterly forbidden: translating the bible into English. Back then that was an offence punishable by death followed by eternal damnation in you-know-where. Today the church pretends it was always okay to read babble in local lingo. Anyway, he got a big following until he and his kind were exterminated. WASPies often point to him as their actual 'protestant' predecessor when they discover that Luther and the other bloodsoaked reformers weren't as swell as they'd initially imagined. They also like to point to/imagine some 'true christianism' lost in a misty haze of time or otherwise claimed to have been lost due to catholic history rewriting/erasing. A 'true christianism' that they claim also involved reading the bible in the local tongue and interpreting it for oneself. Local language? Most probably, but which 'bible' they would mean is beyond anyone's guess. But it ain't the catholic-protestant collection of gospels for sure.

Ramana, here you go, Joseph McCabe summarises his vast knowledge (he read voluminous tomes and so we don't have to <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /> :thankful):
Second and third paras in this first excerpt are added for interest.
QUOTELet us keep a sense of proportion. The record of Christianity from the days when it first obtained the power to persecute is one of the most ghastly in history. The total number of Manichaeans, Arians, Priscillianists, Paulicians, Bogomiles, Cathari, Waldensians, Albigensians, witches, Lollards, Hussites, Jews and Protestants killed because of their rebellion against Rome clearly runs to many millions; and beyond these actual executions or massacres is the enormously larger number of those who were tortured, imprisoned, or beggared. I am concerned rather with the positive historical aspect of this. In almost every century a large part of the race has endeavored to reject the Christian religion, and, if in those centuries there had been the same freedom as we enjoy, Roman Catholicism would, in spite of the universal ignorance, have shrunk long ago into a sect. The religious history of Europe has never yet been written.

It is unnecessary to add that the Reformers followed for a time in the bloody footsteps of the Popes. But when Catholic apologists eagerly quote the sentiments of Reformers and the executions of Catholics by Protestants, they betray the usual lack of sense of proportion. A twelve-century-old tradition of religious persecution is not likely to be abandoned in a few decades. This particular kind of savagery, the infliction of a horrible death for opinions, had been introduced into Europe by the Christian leaders -- ancient Rome never persecuted for opinion or had any standard of orthodoxy -- and it had got into the blood. The killing of men for their beliefs by the early Protestants was murder just as was the killing of men by the Inquisition. It is a mockery to ask us to detect any divine interest in Churches during those fourteen centuries of ghastly injustice and inhumanity.

[...]But death for heresy is the actual law of the Roman Catholic Church today. Vacandard and others convey to their non-Catholic readers that Rome has repented like every other Church. Not in the least: it has not sacrificed one syllable of its teaching about heretics. I am under sentence of death in the Canon Law of the Roman Church. I have in my popular work, "The Popes and Their Church, shown that about the end of the last century, when the new generation of apologists were busy with their glosses on the past and their pretty appeals for universal tolerance, a new manual of Church Law, specially authorized by Leo XIII, written by a Papal professor, printed in a Papal press, was published. It was in Latin; and probably few Catholics in America will fail to be astonished to learn that the author states, and proves at great length, that the Church claims and has "the right of the sword" over heretics, and only the perversity of our age prevents it from exercising that right! More recent manuals of Church Law have the same beautiful thesis. It is today the law of the Roman Church. Remember it when you read these subtle Jesuits and eloquent Paulists and unctuous bishops on the "blunders" of the past and the right and duty of toleration today, The Inquisition (the Holy Office) exists. The law exists. And you and I may thank this age of skepticism that we keep our blood in our veins.
And here, another excerpt - initial two paras included again for interest - the third and subsequent paras are what is relevant to Ramana's statement. Note how later on, there were again at least two classes of protest against the then mainstream christianism: the christian reformation (protestants) and the more secular Renaissance. (More recently, when protestantism became mainstream we've seen further mutations in protest to it. And on and on. Christianism just doesn't sit with anyone, even though a population may have long been indoctrinated with it or societies may have developed around it.)
QUOTEIn justice to our ancestors we must avoid judging them by our modern standards. It occurred to nobody in those days to ask when, where, and by whom the Gospels were written; which was the first condition of escape from the Christian creed. To talk about the "simple piety" of our ancestors is bunk. They were duped so thoroughly and comprehensively that even a scholar did not think of asking those skeptical questions. Do not imagine that I am making bold statements which modern scholars would not sanction. It is merely the words I use that they would not sanction; and these pages are written for people who prefer a lie to be called a lie instead of a terminological inexactitude.

Most of the more learned theological authorities on the Gospels now say that words are put into the mouth of Jesus which Jesus certainly never uttered. All but Catholic scholars say this of the profoundly important supposed saying to Peter: "On this rock I will build my Church"; and even learned Catholic scholars say it of the almost equally important command (Matthew xxviii, 19) to "baptize" in the name of the Trinity. Then attention was distracted from such weaknesses as the gospel narrative obviously has by the fabrication of a supernatural version of the triumph of Christianity (the tabarum, the discovery of the cross and Veronica's pocket handkerchief, thousands of forged legends of saints and martyrs, etc.). A number of further forgeries (Donation of Constantine, etc.) established the Pope's royal dignity, and a vast number of falsified or forged decrees of Councils proved his spiritual supremacy. There had been, on the admission of all historians, six hundred years of forgeries. The stark humanity of the Church was concealed under a purple and gold robe of supernatural favor.

In the circumstances it is remarkable how much radical anti-Christian heresy there was before the revival of learning. I must not attempt even to summarize it here. It is enough to recall that, to our positive knowledge, hundreds of thousands of men and women were killed for revolt against the ruling creed between 1200 and 1500 A.D. If we were to take the early Christians as a standard -- say, in the Diocletian persecution, when a few hundred suffered for the faith and a few million abjured it -- we should have to conclude that there was a colossal proportion of heresy in the Middle Ages. Remember that the total population of Europe in those days was only about thirty millions. Life was so ghastly, so ruthlessly devastated by disease and violence, that, although men and women bred like rabbits, the population was almost stationary. However, let us be liberal and grant the apologist that the medieval heretics were much more faithful than the early Christians -- or, if he prefers it, that the Christian Church was much more thorough in its bloody measures than the pagan authorities had been -- so that we will not claim a thousand heretics for every one that died.

This revolt took two different lines. In part (in the Bogomiles, Albigensians, Luciferists, etc.) it was a revolt against Christian doctrine. In part (Waldensians, Lollards, Hussites, etc.) it was a revolt against the Church's corruption of Christian doctrine. But in both cases the mightiest element in the revolt was disgust at the state of Christendom. The corruption of the Church was the seed of heretics. Whether they said that the creed was wrong and unnatural, or that the creed was right but corrupted, they united in pointing out that the actual state of the Church repelled people of delicate spiritual nostrils.

The intellectual or doctrinal revolt was murdered. Churches are always sterner against intellectual vitality than erotic vitality -- in practice. The Renaissance was not in the least a continuation of the earlier doctrinal rebellion. It was confined to the cultivated few. It was generally on good terms with the Church and as willing to burn incense to Jesus as to Apollo or any other form of thought. Where it was outspokenly anti-Christian, it was Greek: Platonist or Epicurean or Stoic. But in Greek literature were the germs of modern thought and the modern spirit.

Hence the relation of the Renaissance to the more dramatic revolt which we call the Reformation is profoundly interesting, and quite opposite opinions are expressed on it. The Reformation was in the direct line of moral revolts against the Church in the interest of pure Christianity. It continued, and it was greatly helped by, the revolts of the Wyclifites, Hussites, Christian Cathari, etc. It agreed with the Humanists in the attack on Scholastic theology and Canon Law; and the leading Humanists (Erasmus, etc.) agreed with the Reformers in denouncing the corruption of the Church. Yet, although the effects of the Renaissance remained -- the act of awakening is merely the first and temporary condition of the state of being awake -- the Reformers denounced the human or, as they said, pagan spirit of it, which was its finest contribution to the new era. Did the Reformation do more harm than good? Did it postpone unnecessarily the development of the modern humanitarian, libertarian, and scientific spirit?

http://freetruth.50webs.org/A2c.htm
ADDED: One of the many medieval sects that sprang up - and was crushed - that was very similar to the later reformation:
QUOTEFollowers of Peter Waldo of Lyon, called Waldensians, also suffered the wrath of official Christendom. They promoted the role of lay street preachers despite official policy that only ordained ministers be allowed to preach. They rejected things like oaths, war, relics, veneration of saints, indulgences, purgatory, and a great deal more which was promoted by religious leaders. ...They were declared heretics at the Council of Verona in 1184 and then hounded and killed over the course of the following 500 years. In 1487, Pope Innocent VIII called for an armed crusade against populations of Waldensians in France. Some of them still apparently survive in the Alps and Piedmont.

Dozens of other heretical groups suffered the same fate - condemnation, excommunication, repression and eventually death.
Link http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/chri...ol_crusades.htmAs for the christian love they received from mainstream western christianism (catholicism) - do a search on the word 'wald' on this page
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A2d.htm
Warning: It's sickening. I stopped reading now after three lines. The first included the faithful following jehovallah's commandment on dashing children's brains out... And it keeps going at that level.

ADDED Going back to Dhu's statement again:
QUOTESo all these mutations upon Christianity are happening to unify the Internal European space ??Europeans are not in control: historically the mutations have not really been intentional; even now they can only direct the mutations (like communism, liberation theology) against others, not consciously cook them up.
Christianism is causing them to convulse repeatedly but it's not properly coming out. It's like a sick person whose body goes through different symptoms of a single disease when its trying to ( r)eject the bug. (Visualise a cartoony image: a character turning green, then getting pink bumps all over, then flashing hot and cold, then...).
Will they eventually shake the disease this way? I don't know. The revolting hasn't worked for over 1.5 millennia. That is why I think the only way they can be healed - the only medicine for Europe - is their Gods and their Real Religions. If they are reintroduced to their Gods - or just plain old humanity/freedom from christianism (for those that have a tendency to be non-religious; but then I don't know why they stomached christianism before that though...) - then the christian disease will be reversed and normalcy will return to their lives. And as a wonderful side-effect, we may regain some peace/normalcy too. There'd still be the problem of islam, of course, but as its still in the openly ultraviolent stage ('high fever'), muslim countries will have to apply the same solution to themselves later on when they've cooled down a little.

ADDED: here you go, a greater mind than mine says the same words (McCabe again - when it comes to christanism he knows his stuff):
QUOTEAnd the broad human truth here is that Europe was in a stupid and muddled condition of mind because an unnatural creed had been forced upon itIf you will believe me, I don't think I ever read this statement before now. I just glanced at it when looking up Waldensians and McCabe for getting material to put in this post.
And he even says 'unnatural' about christianism, just like I did. Woohoo, I independently came up with something McCabe did too!
And... that's over now - feeling of greatness lasted all of a second.

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - dhu - 11-01-2007

QUOTEIt's all because of the christian meme that they've not been able to shake, 

I knew you would bring this up, huskybhai. Meme model was lifted from the discrete units of genetics. This model is regularly applied to the religion domain but it does not capture the intent behind the propagation of these ideologies. Meme model was invented to obfuscate responsibilty and traceability of the actors behind these ideologies. We are replicating model of 'original sin' when we speak of this meme floating throughout history.

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - acharya - 11-06-2007

Global Diwali

From The Holiday Spot
Celebrations Around the World
Diwali is also celebrated outside of India mainly in Guyana, Fiji, Malaysia, Nepal, Mauritius, Myanmar, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Trinidad & Tobago, Britain, Indonesia, Japan, Thailand, Africa, Australia and the US among the Hindus across the world.

Diwali celebrations in Britain
The Indians are the second largest ethnic minority in Britain. To get rid of the feeling of missing their homeland, especially during festival times, the Indians here celebrate most of the festivals. The occasion is marked by visit to the local temple to worship the shrine of Lakshmi, which they have made for Diwali. Eating special sweets, burning of incense sticks, lighting the home and surroundings and the blowing of the conch shell follows the prayer session in the Lakshmi temple.
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The festival here is celebrated according to the Hindu solar calendar hence it falls in the months of October-November, amongst the cold, damp and windy months in Britain. Still the enthusiasm of the festival celebration makes the task of leaving small lamps on windowsills or by open doorways possible ignoring the chill. The lamps and diyas play their part in maintaining the atmosphere of Diwali at home.

Diwali celebrations in Guyana
Guyana, formerly known as British Guiana, is located on the northeast coast of South America. Guyana is 82,978 square miles in area and has a population of about 7,70,000. Hindus constitute 33% of Guyana's total population. The Co-operative Republic of Guyana in Southern America celebrates Diwali according to the Hindu Solar calendar. The day of the festival is declared as a national holiday in the official calendar of Guyana. The tradition of celebrating the festival is believed to have been brought to Guyana in the year 1853 by the first indentured people from India. The legends related to the festival are similar to that of India. The celebration of the festival includes, distribution of sweets, illuminating the inside and outside of the house, exchange of greetings, cleaning of houses and wearing of new clothes. The celebrations hold special significance for the people of Guyana. The distribution of sweet signifies the importance of serving and sharing whereas exchange of greeting cards denotes the goodwill of each other. The sweets distributed mainly consist of pera, barfi, and kheer. The tradition of wearing new cloth for the people of Guyana is significant especially in this festival. They believe that wearing new cloth is the symbol of healthy souls in healthy bodies. Cleaning of their homes and keeping them well illuminated in and outside is a practice meant to illuminate the road for Goddess Lakshmi so that while goddess Lakshmi visits their home she faces no problem of light as the Diwali night is regarded as the darkest night of the year.

Diwali celebrations in Indonesia
The name Indonesia came from two Greek words: "Indos" meaning Indian and "Nesos" meaning islands. The majority of population follows Islam. Hindus constituent about 2% of Indonesia's total population. However, the Indonesian island of Bali is famous for celebrating the festival of Diwali, as a majority of the population here is that of Indians. It is one of the most revered festivals of the locals here. The celebration and rituals of the festival is mostly similar to that celebrated by their counterparts in India.

Diwali celebrations in Malaysia
Fascinating in its diversity, Malaysia has many mesmerizing charms and attractions. With a population of about 20 million, comprising of a harmonious multi-ethnic mix of Malays, Malaysia promises a colorful potpourri of cultural traditions. Most are based on the various religious practices, beliefs and traditions influencing the costumes, festivals, ceremonies and rituals. The Hindu community of Malaysia constitutes about 8% of its total population .The community celebrates Diwali as a symbol of triumph of good over evil. The Malaysian people call Diwali as Hari Diwali. This festival is celebrated during the 7th month of the Hindu solar calendar. The south Indian traditional of oil bath precedes the festivities. The celebration includes visits to temples and prayers at household altars. Small lamps made from clay and filled with coconut oil and wicks are a common sight to signify the victory of Lord Rama, the hero of the Hindu epic Ramayana, over the demon king Ravana. Diwali is celebrated almost all over the Malaysia except in Sarawak & Federal Territory of Labuan.

Diwali celebrations in Mauritius
Mauritius is an island in the Indian Ocean that lies to the east of Madagascar. This beautiful landmass is full of picturesque landscapes and enchanting spots. Mauritius accounts a 63% of Indian majority of which 80% follow Hinduism. Hence, celebration of almost all the Hindu festivals in this island is a common phenomenon. In Mauritius, Diwali celebration is an age-old tradition. It holds special significance for the natives, who believe that Diwali has been celebrated even long before the return of Lord Rama from 14 years of exile and his coronation as the king. The festival is marked by lightening of earthen lamps in rows making images out of the rows. Lakshmi is worshipped as the goddess of wealth and crackers are burnt to scare away evil spirits.
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Diwali celebrations in Nepal
Nepal is a landlocked country nestled in the foothills of the Himalayas. Nepal, a multi-ethnic and multi-lingual society is the only Hindu Kingdom of the world. Diwali is celebrated here with the usual Hindu festivities and rituals. Diwali in Nepal is known as Tihar. Just like most places in India Diwali is celebrated here to honor the goddess of wealth and god of prosperity Lakshmi and Ganesh respectively. The festival of light falls in the months of October or November on the day of Amavasya - the darkest day of the year. The festival here continues for five days. Every day has its special significance. The first day is dedicated to cows as they cook rice and feed the cows believing that goddess Lakshmi comes on cows. The second day is for Dogs as the Vahana of Bhairava. Preparation of delicious food especially meant for the dog is a typical characteristic of the day. Lights and lamps are lit to illuminate the entire surrounding and some of the specialty items are prepared to mark the third day of the festival. Fireworks, Lamps and crackers are widely used. The fourth day is dedicated to Yama, the Hindu God of Death. He is prayed for long life. The fifth final day is Bhhaya Dooj dedicated for the brothers who are wished long life and prosperity by their sisters.

Diwali celebrations in South Africa
South Africa is located at the southern tip of the continent of Africa. It is a mix of cultures and has one of the largest immigrant Indian communities in the world. The country has almost one million immigrant Indians. Most of these Indian immigrants are concentrated in the eastern regions of Natal and Transvaal of the country. About 65% of Hindus, 15% of Muslims and 20% of Christians live in this area. Due to the majority of the Hindu population, a number of Hindu festivals are celebrated here. Diwali also holds an important place in the festival calendar of the region. The celebration is more or less same to that in India. Most of the Hindus here are from Gujarat and Tamil Nadu and continue to follow their regional variations of Hinduism.

Diwali celebrations in Trinidad & Tobago
Trinidad is the most southern of the Caribbean islands, lying only seven miles off the Venezuelan coast, is one of the most exciting, colorful islands of the West Indies. Considered as the land of the Humming Bird, Trinidad and Tobago has a good number of Indian population. For that reason, Hindu festivals, customs, traditions and observances forms an integral part of the society, which comprises the unique beauty of the twin island state. The Diwali celebration has a unique flavor here in the Caribbean island nation. Here 43 per cent of the 1.3 million populations are ethnic Indians. The Diwali celebrations are usually marked as an occasion to unify the nation that consists of Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Indo-Trinidadians and Afro-Trinidadians. The festival day is regarded as a national holiday. The festival is also marked by scores of functions besides the usual rituals of the festivity. The functions and celebrations also have an official imprint as the Ministers of the Government also participate in the celebrations sometimes. The belief behind the festival is same as of India, which is, prevalence of good over evil. The celebrations continue for over a week and the headquarters of the National Council of Indian Culture at Diwali Nagar becomes the focal point.

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - ramana - 11-16-2007

Article in Deccan Chronicle, 16 Nov 2007

QUOTEIs anybody out there?
By Saswato R. Das
New York: The announcement by Nasa scientists that they have finally found another solar system reminiscent of our own is the fulfilment of an age-old quest in astronomy. Schoolchildren will now learn that instead of one solar system, astronomers now definitively know there are more planetary systems, and some are even in our cosmic backyard.

In a sense, this discovery continues the revolution started by Copernicus and Kepler and Galileo, in which earth (and then the sun) lost its special place as the centre of the universe.

At a recent press conference, Nasa astronomers said they had found five planets around 55 Cancri, a sun-like star which lies 41 light years away in the constellation of Cancer. One of the planets lies in the so-called habitable zone â an area around the star where temperatures are conducive to life â and astronomers speculated that it may have moons which may have earth-like attributes.

The latest discovery bolsters a far older view that the processes that gave rise to the planets in our solar system are not unique, and there are planets elsewhere. The philosopher Epicurus wrote in the 4th century BC that "there are infinite worlds both like and unlike this world of ours." In the 13th century, Albertus Magnus posed the question, "Do there exist many worlds, or is there but a single world?" Magnus went on to say, "This is one of the most noble and exalted questions in the study of Nature." And the heretic Giordano Bruno, who was burned at the stake in 1600, held that "innumerable suns exist, and innumerable earths revolve about these suns."

But it was the philosopher Immanuel Kant who made the strongest case for exoplanets, as these planets have come to be known. In his theory of the heavens in 1755 â a time when only six planets were known â Kant advanced the idea that there were planets in the solar system beyond Saturn and that planets were not confined to our solar system.

"Our planetary system has the sun as its central body, and the fixed stars which we see are, in all probability, centres of similar systems," he wrote.

The first of Kantâs predictions was proven true during his lifetime. In 1781, William Herschel, a German musician and astronomer who had emigrated to England, stumbled upon a faint, hazy object that moved in a planet-like orbit beyond Saturn. It was named Uranus. This caused a lot of excitement about planet hunting, and amateur astronomers trained their telescopes onto the night sky in the hope of finding more.

The mood was captured in poetry by John Keats (In the poem Daffodils):

"Then felt I like some

watcher of the skies

When a new planet swims into his ken."

But while cataloguing the planets in our own solar system was difficult, searching for planets beyond our solar system was even more complex. The separation between stars is immense and measured not in miles but in light years (a light year is almost six trillion miles). As a consequence, even planets around nearby stars, a few light years away, are incredibly faint. Planets produce no light of their own but reflect their parent suns.

The voyage across inter-stellar space so diminishes the reflected light that it becomes almost impossible to take images of such planets.

It was only in 1995 that the first planet beyond the solar system was observed. As our telescopes have gotten better, more of these extremely faint exoplanets have come into view.

In some cases â as with the 55 Cancri planets â the discovery was made by an indirect means, from the planetâs gravitational perturbation to the movement of the parent star.

As of today, astronomers have counted roughly 260 exoplanets around nearby stars; most of these are relatively large, about the size of Jupiter.

There is a lot of excitement surrounding the 55 Cancri discovery because astronomers realise that one of the planets lies in the so-called habitable zone â an area around the star where temperatures are such that liquid water can exist. Scientists maintain that the presence of water increases the possibility of finding life. This particular planet is almost the size of Saturn, so probably too large to sustain life as we know it. But it may possess large moons that are earth-like.

Of course, the question that follows is whether there many planets like the earth out there? After all, the sun is an ordinary star, and there are millions of similar stars in our galaxy. If there are Jupiter and Saturn-like planets around sun-like stars, is it not conceivable that they also have earth-like planets orbiting them?

And a couple of days after the Nasa announcement, another team of astronomers found a twin of the sun nearby. This star doesnât seem to have large planets around it, but it is not clear any small ones are present.

Searching for direct evidence of earth-like planets â Earth is much smaller than Saturn or Jupiter â will take a new generation of powerful telescopes. But surely we will succeed. And then, of course, we will have to deal with the biggest question of all: Is there other life out there?

Will we ever learn the answer?

Saswato R. Das, who lives in New York, writes about astronomy and astrophysics



My question is how did Immanuel Kant make his prediction? He is a philospher and not a mathematician or scientist.

By that time there was knowldege of Hindu astronomy.

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - Guest - 11-19-2007

The following is about a different thread - didn't want to forever be sidetracking it.
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.ph...pic=1843&st=210
"Year 2012 -satya/dwapara Yuga, SATYA YUGA/DWAPARA YUGA - page 8"

I made a mistake in post 229:
The sacred Chinese dragon ... is described very precisely in their tradition. Its form is an amalgamation of several animals: antlers for horns, fish' gills, claws of a bird of prey and several other very particular features that I can't recall at present. 
Mistake in there. It's not fish 'gill' but those protruding things that stick out of a fish's face and which waft about in the water. It looks like a moustache on the Dragon.
The above is all I could remember of a description a Chinese friend gave me a long time ago of the Chinese Dragon (which they indeed said was called Long).

Here, this is what I meant by "particular features". There's no human in there. I was told they're always presented like this:

http://www.chinavoc.com/dragon/myth.asp
From its origins as totems or the stylized depiction of natural creatures, the Chinese dragon evolved to become a mythical animal. By the Han Dynasty, 206 BC - AD 220, the scholar Wang Fu recorded the anatomy of the Chinese dragon in extensive detail. The dragon's appearance is described as having the trunk of a snake; the scales of a carp ; the tail of a whale; the antlers of a stag; the face of a camel; the talons of eagles; the ears of a bull; the feet of a tiger and the eyes of a (dragon)lobster.

Chinese dragons are physically concise. Of the 117 scales, 81 are of the yang essence (positive) while 36 are of the yin essence (negative).

This description accords with the artistic depictions of the dragon down to the present day. The dragon has also acquired an almost unlimited range of supernatural powers. It is said to be able to disguise itself as a silkworm, or become as large as our entire universe. It can fly among the clouds or hide in water (according to the Guanzi). It can form clouds, can turn into water or fire, can become invisible or glow in the dark (according to the Shuowen Jiezi).
Again:
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/goldend...ns/chinese.html
The Chinese dragon is made up of nine entities. The head of camel, the eyes of a demon, the ears of a cow, the horns of a stag, the neck of a snake, it's belly a clam's, it's claws that of an eagle, while the soles of his feet are that of a tiger, and the 117 scales that cover it's body are that of a carp.

The Chinese dragon has four claws as standard, but the Imperial dragon has five, this is to identify it above the lesser classes. Anyone other than the emperor using the 5 claw motif was put to death

The following is regarding Raju's posts 230-232:
From the article Raju posted in post 231, it shows that the Chinese Dragon was known before Buddhism:
The mystification of the supernatural power of snake in India and Long in China was the product of agriculture of both the countries. While we don't have concrete evidence for the Indian input in the imagination of the pre. Buddhist Chinese Long, we certainly can trace the Indian influence on the Buddhist (and post Buddhist, if you wish) Chinese Long. For one thing, the artifacts that symbolize Long created in pre-Buddhist China are by and large free from the fierce look that typifies the Buddhist Long (like the Chinese say, "zhangya wuzhua", i.e. baring its teeth and waving its claws) which clearly demonstrate the inner social function of LonglDragon as the guardian of the imperial system. It is in this function that we clearly see the Indian contribution.

(Small thing, but this is not complete:
But, in Indian legends, Siva was a Naga,
Well, he is certainly also known in his form as a Yaksha; and as a Deva. Didn't know about the Naga until now. But in Hindu tradition, Shiva comes in many forms. Just like Mahavishnu incarnated in many forms.)

The wikipedia article on Nagas is as anticipated:
The Sanskrit word Naga
The word Naga in the Sanskrit language means snake or serpent. It seems likely that the Naga people were a serpent-worshipping group who were later described as serpents themselves in ancient Indian literature. This transformation or identification was much like the Vanaras (forest-dwelling humans) turning unto monkeys in the later literature.
Oh, lovely. Wacky's speculation becomes fact within two sentences (from above):
"Seems likely that Naga people were serpent-worshippers who later were described as serpents in ancient Indian lit. Much like how vanaras were a people that were turned into monkeys in later lit."
And I am sure that on Wacky's Vanara page we can find them say: "Seems likely Vanaras were monkey-worshipping people who later were described as monkeys, much like Nagas were people whom Indian lit later described as serpents."
Don't ya just love that circular reasoning.
And where's their proof that the following is not the case instead: the Vanaras and Nagas of Hindu literature were creatures or beings that Hindus had long worshipped - and certain communities particularly so, such that they named themselves after the original creatures/Gods? It is more consonant with what Indians themselves (the authors of the very Indian literature being thus disputed) have held.

Oh yes, what do we Hindoos know really. But Wackypedia knows! It knows what Hindoo had for breakfast too, while stoopid Hindoo doesn't know. Our literature is not even allowed to be mythology - it has to be 'confused' mythology, 'confused' non-history - except when bits of it serves others' purposes as history. I especially love how they say our ancestors were sooo stoopid that they can't tell the difference between a monkey with tail and a human and (more laughably) the difference between a snake and a human.
Who comes up with all the "it seems to me to be, therefore it is. What do the lab-rat population know anyway"?

The mortal enemy of the dragon is the Phoenix, as well as the bird-man creature known as Karura (Garuda ?).
For me, that's the only bit that sounds particularly similar to the Indian version (Naga-Garuda). (I was told the Phoenix is female and was the Empress' emblem, so that doesn't quite match up.)
But how do we know that Karura's antagonism (or even Karura himself) was not introduced with Buddhism and therefore brought the Indian narratives to China where they were then superimposed on the extant traditions regarding the Chinese Dragon?

If Wackypedia is so patronising (not to mention wrong) about Hindu literary sources, how can I know they have not dealt in an equally dismissive way with the equally-pagan Chinese Dragon?

Chinese translators, like the famous pilgrim Xuanzang, rendered the supernatural Naga in ancient Indian texts into Longldragon on purpose
This does not indicate whether they were merely trying to find the nearest element that the Chinese person was familiar with/could readily understand/imagine. English authors render the Chinese Dragon with the English word dragon, although the Chinese one is very different from the western idea of dragon. Sure, both are fantastical-sounding creatures, but there are several very significant departures between the two.
(As an extreme example of how the vocabulary chosen during translation is not always accurate: apparently English translations of nazi stuff rendered the nazi symbol called hakenkreuz as "Swastika" instead of the literal "hooked cross/cross of hooks".)

If we regard India and China as cultural twins from the same cradle, it is important to find the cultural affinity of the two civilizations. One common symbol is the powerful snake whose legendary image is known as Nagaraja in India, and LonglDragon in China. . In Chinese Buddhist literature, these two symbols have merged into "Long"
Cultural affinity, yes. But a common symbol may be similar to both without having the same origin.
But from what's given, it does not negate that Buddhists merely conflated the Indian and Chinese versions, which might have been perfectly independent before (and indeed, the Dragon existed in China before Buddhism arrived).

mythological animal of Chinese origin, and a member of the NAGA (Sanskrit) family of serpentine creatures who protect Buddhism. Japan's dragon lore comes predominantly from China.
The use of the name "Naga" for the "family of serpentine creatures" is also due to Buddhism; not likely a term that would have been used for the Chinese dragon before Indian contact.

I have taken this proposition of Naga-Long twinhood to the academic fora both in China and in Taiwan, and have encountered violent opposition.
That author admits it is a proposition. Certainly the Buddhist alterations made to the Chinese Dragon have brought the two closer (the Buddhist interpretation of the Chinese Dragon matches closer with Indian Naga) - but surely, this in no way proves that the original (pre-Buddhist) tradition concerning Chinese Dragon was of Naga origin?
The greatest indication for me that post-Buddhism, the sacred Chinese Dragon and its symbolism in China evolved to become rather like in India is the Karura-enemy-of-Long. But it does not immediately follow that:
this is result of communist indoctrination in China which sought to severe sinic links with India
The Buddhist links (and their additions and changes to traditions related to Chinese Dragon) seem to be admitted. But is there clinching evidence that the original Chinese Dragon had any links with India? If this is not at all clear, why must they admit to it?
And is wackypedia - and propositions that specifically seek to find cultural affinity (and which can only trace the Long-Naga back to Buddhism and not before) - all we need to be going by? Should we just ignore what religious Chinese people say of their own sacred Dragon? In favour of such sources?

To me the writers and compilers of Hindu literature could distinguish between monkey/snake/eagle on one hand and human on the other. (Whether our Puranas are part-history and part-fantasy or all miraculously true or all mythology is not pertinent here.) My point is that Hindu and other Dharmic literature was not written by imbeciles, as everyone - even Indians these days - like to make out. A Naga human came to be transliterated as snake or Snake God? IMO, it's rather more likely that some Dharmic communities of snake worshippers took over the name - this is the direction that similar things have happened everywhere else.

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - Guest - 11-19-2007

Your questions are also questions that I asked myself when I encountered such information at which point they were frankly a bit overwhelming. But at some point, one has to admit the 'divine origin of human beings', Are we the result of genetic experiments by the Gods. Are humans variations of a single beeja engineered by different groups of Gods into different racial types in image of themselves...to see who emerges the winner ? What is the divine game being played ... we have to wait for the reply. But we should keep our minds open to all different kinds of possibilities, this is what I tell myself.

Coming to questions you raised about Nagas, the Nagas are supposed to have included Central Asia as areas under its influence. Considering that Sakas are the progenitors of Saxons and Sakas were from parts of Central Asia, they have taken with them the Naga symbols and lore of Dragon along with them to North West and into Europe.

I am absolutely sure that the Chinese dragon was borrowed from Naga civilization. It is symbolic of the spread, reach and cultural influence of that group on various peoples around the world.

Husky questions that you ask are basic, unless there is a consensus on basic possibilities only then one can discuss over forums. If we are not on the same page on that, net discussions can become laborious, argumentative and incapable of bringing consensus.

peace

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - Guest - 11-19-2007

I dont wish to disrupt the above dialog, but just want to file this one in the thread, so as to avoid cluttering the 2012 thread. this is about the part on the bird sacrifice reported in 226 of that thread link of which Husky gave above.

The village is Jatinga, in Cachar Hills of interior Assam. Though the village is in Assam, it is populated by nAga-s.

<img src='http://nchills.gov.in/VISIT3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Here are some viewpoint about the annual event of bird-'suicide'.

From a travelog:
QUOTETRIP REPORTÂ : JATINGA -30TH SEPTEMBER 1986-1ST OCTOBER 1986
---------------------------------------------------------------
ByÂ Govind Kumar , P.O Box 88, Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Email : gkumar99@emirates.net.ae
---------------------------------------------------------------

This is a brief report of a visit to Jatinga , a beautiful valleyÂ
in the North Cachar Hills District of Assam in 1986.Â
The valley derives its name fromÂ a small village inhabited by a
Jemi Naga tribe, about seven kilometres from Haflong,the district capital.
Accessible by road or rail from either Lumding or Silchar, the village sits
atop a ridge 742m high and 1.5 kilometres long.The well forested valley is
justly famous for its orange orchards, pineapple plantations and fruit trees.

Jatinga village is also theÂ site whereÂ birds drop to lights put up by
villagers all along the ridge.

The Nagas first noticed the phenomenon in 1905. 

{Writer is writing this in 1986.Â He does not mention the source of above observation. So, take the above statement with caution of course}

The following conditions appear to be essential :
(a) Dense Fog
(b) Light Rain
Â© Southerly winds at speeds 5 to 10 kilometres per hour
(d) Lights placed at vantage points along the ridge.
Â Â Â Â Â The birds drop only in September and October under favourable weather
conditions, rarely in August.
The temperature at this time of year ranges from 9 degrees C to 28 degrees C and
the humidity from 80 to 95 % With high winds, the birds drop lower down; otherwise
they go higher up.
Â Â Â Â Â Bringing downÂ birds appeared to be a 'sport' with the villagers. Special
poles made of bamboo with tapering ends were used to bring down the birds . While most birds went straight into the pot, new species were taken to the ZSI scientist studying the phenomenon to beÂ identified. A couple of villagers, employees of the Assam Forest Department, had been trained in field identification and were equipped with field guides .

A ZSI survey had recorded 122 species in the valley in 1983, using mist netting.
Of these, 58 had dropped to the lights.

Â Â Â Â Â When I sat up on the ridge between 8 PM on 30th September and 2 AM on
1st October, the temperature was 22 degrees C with light rain, thick fog andÂ fairly
strong southerlyÂ winds and generally ideal conditions.

Hundreds of birds of the following species dropped or were brought down in this period:

1.Â Â Red-legged CrakeÂ Â ( Rallina fasciata )
2.Â Â Slaty-breasted Rail ( Gallirallus striatus )
3.Â Â White-breasted WaterhenÂ (Amaurornis phoenicurus)
4.Â Â Indian Pond HeronÂ ( Ardeola grayii)
5.Â Â Chinese Pond Heron ( Ardeola bacchus )
6.Â Â Hooded PittaÂ ( Pitta sordida)
7.Â Â WatercockÂ Â ( Gallicrex cinerea )Â Female
8.Â Â Thick-billed Green Pigeon ( Treron curvirostra)
9.Â Â Pompadour Green Pigeon ( Treron pompadora)
10.Â Â Cinnamon BitternÂ ( Ixobrychus cinnamomeus)
11.Â Â WoodcockÂ ( Scolopax rusticola)
12.Â Â Indian CuckooÂ ( Cuculus micropterus)
13.Â Â Cattle EgretÂ ( Bubulcus ibis)
14.Â Â KoelÂ Â (Eudynamys scolopacea)
15.Â Â Ruddy KingfisherÂ ( Halcyon coromanda)
16.Â Â Oriental Dwarf Kingfisher ( Ceyx erithacus)

Â Â Â Â Â Â I had the privilege of examining many of the smaller species in the hand.
Hooded Pitta was abundant and accounted for almost 60% of the birds that dropped. The
atmosphere was eerie with the silence of the night being broken only by the swish of
bamboo poles cutting through the air and the calls of disoriented birds flying about.
The villagers seemed adept at identification and could recognise species like O
riental Dwarf Kingfisher, Hooded Pitta and Pond Heron fromÂ calls . SomeÂ of the birds
bled profusely from wounds sustained while others appeared dazed.
Â Â Â Â Â Â The Assam Forest Department had put up two watch towers (one on the ridge
and another lower down) to enable visitors observe the phenomenon at close hand. There
was also a small library with books on birds and some charts prepared by the Forest
Department detailing bird drops.
The Forest Department was also studying the 'post drop' behaviour of some species in captivity.

Â Species seen from the lower watch tower onÂ 1st October, in the morning :

1 Ruddy Kingfisher-Common; A large communal roost by a stream at the bottom of the valley
2 Lesser Rufous-headed Parrotbill-Common but not easy to see as the birds kept to thick
Â bamboo clumps, uttering wheezy contact calls.
3 Large Cuckoo-Shrike -Â Small groups of 5 or 6 birds
4 Oriental Hobby -Â Solo
5 Mountain Imperial Pigeon - Several in flight
6 Hill Myna - Large flocks in flight
7 Blue-tailed Bee-eater - Large flock of 100-150 in flight , buffeted byÂ strong winds . Passage ?
8 Brown-backed Needletail-Flocks overhead in overcast conditions
9 Grey-backed Shrike- Common
10 Red-throated Flycatcher - Solitary male
11 Eurasian Blackbird - A few pairs on tall trees near the watch tower
12 Spangled Drongo - 4 in bird wave .
13 Red-rumped Swallow
14 Barn Swallow
15 KoelÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
16 Magpie-Robin
17 Red-vented Bulbul
18 Spotted Dove
19 Common Myna
20 White WagtailÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â

This is an old report and detailed coverage of this site (and more current information) may be found in the new Birdwatchers Guide to India by Kazmierczak and Singh.

http://www.princeton.edu/~vivekt/trips/Jatinga86.html


QUOTEAssam plans to cash in on bird suicide village
11 Jun 2006, 2346 hrs IST,Kounteya Sinha,TNN

SMS NEWS to 58888 for latest updates
NEW DELHI: It's a phenomenon nobody has been able to explain for sure. But Jatinga's mysterious annual ritual of migratory birds committing mass suicide is all set to become Assam's latest tourist attraction.

Assam's tourism ministry is currently preparing a detailed development plan for this village, which is located in North Cachar Hill district, 330 km south of Guwahati.

The village's interior setting and lack of proper infrastructure has been limiting the arrival of tourists, keen to witness the rare phenomenon of bird-suicides, that has baffled ornithologists for more than a century now.

According to Assam's tourism secretary S C Panda, the technically sound and commercially viable development plan would include improving the houses of local villagers for guests to stay, creating sight-seeing points and improving the roads leading to the village.

The plan will be submitted to the Centre for sanction by mid-July. "District officials have been told to finalise the plan proposal by June 30. A final meeting will then chalk out the exact proposals, which will be submitted to the Centre by mid-July.

Because Jatinga is a village inside dense forests, the Forest Conservation Act does not allow us to buy land around the village and set up lodges, guest houses and hotels for visiting tourists," Panda said.

"That's why we have decided to improve the houses of the 2,500 local Jaintia tribal people where tourists can stay. Bathrooms and living rooms will be added to the village huts.

The approach road to the village will also be improved. Bird suicide viewing sites will be created for tourists to take photographs," Panda said.

At present, Jatinga attracts over 500 tourists a month between October to March to witness this rare sight. Most of them don't stay the night due to lack of infrastructure.

Those who do, have only one option - the forest guest house near the village. There is also just one elevated watch tower from where one can see the birds yielding to their death wish.

Just nine km from Haflong, migratory birds come to Jatinga at the end of the monsoon months. During moonless and dark foggy nights, between 7 pm and 10 pm, birds fly and come crashing to the ground with no prior warning.

According to some theories, the birds become disoriented because of the presence of lights, the high altitude and high speed winds due to the widespread fog, and crash into the ground.

Officials say 44 species of migratory birds, including Tiger Bittern, Black Bittern, Little Egret, Pond Heron, Indian Pitta and Kingfishers, take part in this phenomenon.

Interestingly, the birds are not attracted to the entire Jatinga Ridge but only to a well-defined strip, 1.5 km long and 200 metres wide. Also, no long-distance migratory bird is attracted to the light traps. The victims are resident birds of adjacent valleys and hill slopes.

In fact, some of the birds are still alive even after they crash into the ground. But the local villagers kill for their meat.

Conservation groups have taken steps to prevent this killing of the birds, by creating awareness among the illiterate villagers. Since then, the number of birds killed has decreased by about 40%.

Meanwhile, officials said Jatinga will also be part of a tourism circuit that will portray the beauty of Haflong lake. Houseboats like that in Srinagar's Dal Lake will also be created.Â

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/article...5,prtpage-1.cms

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - Guest - 11-19-2007

I'm not going to touch that "Saka, Saxon" line with a pole.

QUOTEHusky questions that you ask are basic, unless there is a consensus on basic possibilities only then one can discuss over forums. If we are not on the same page on that, net discussions can become laborious, argumentative and incapable of bringing consensus.I think you once posted that Scandinavia might be connected to Skanda because of the similarity in names. (Though Scandinavia is said to derive its name from a Northern Goddess called Skadi or similar.) In any case, it's good/necessary to verify guesswork and find out what opposes assumptions (especially word-based ones).
Theories don't become true based on consensus. It's about how true speculations are, whether we can even verify them and whether - in the case of unproven theories about various cultures - such theories have the right to undo/shout down those cultures' own interpretations/understandings of their (his)stories.

QUOTEI am absolutely sure that the Chinese dragon was borrowed from Naga civilization.But your sense of certainty needs to be based on something very tangible, surely? To be "absolutely sure" of anything one needs proof. It's certainly necessary when convincing others. Gut instincts (though I won't deny them completely, it may put one on the right track) don't easily transfer onto other people.
Other than the information you've posted, do you have any proof to show a pre-Buddhist Naga-Chinese Dragon link?

If not, I will continue to regard both as before: independent.
Give them some credit to know their own stuff.
(Race-centric Indo-European researcher-dude Victor Mair also mowed over millennia of recorded Chinese history in one second with his "the Chinese think they're right, but I Victor Mair know better" - all just to chase his hopeful theories of "Europeans" in ancient China doing all kinds of grandiose things that supposedly advanced, if not propelled forward, Chinese civilisation. We're all very grateful for the oryans' alleged involvement, I'm sure :Not:
Besides, Europe has already laid claim to the Chinese Dragon - because, you know, when Europe had something, then no other culture can have had it unless Europe bequeathed it to them. Hence everything they've called dragon *must* have travelled W to E because of the presence of the dragon mythos in Europe.
Of course I find your theories on this far more plausible, but to me they still remain theories.)

QUOTEHusky questions that you ask are basicYes, but I always find that my basic questions need to be asked and answered before I can be convinced of anything. Of course convincing me is not your problem. But I will ask, if I can be bothered to type - and I look things up for myself. I happen to like statements that are verified or verifiable (from sources I consider to be reliable of course).

I tend to be averse to speculation that poses as the final word - especially when they're based on what I find to be "circumstantial indicators" at best. Indicators that can just as well be explained by other theories and possibilities. And I especially dislike the kind of speculation that overturns one or more culture's/civilisation's millennia-long understanding of itself, without having offered any actual proof. (Whether it is my own culture's or other people's, doesn't matter - I dislike it as a principle.)
I require hard evidence: it needs to be significant because it has to be a counterweight against the ages of tradition and recorded history. That is, extraordinary claims (going against the mainstream/established situation/status quo) require far more concrete evidence to overturn the situation. It must be evidence that can stand on its own - it shouldn't enable me to offer up other plausible solutions.
In the absence of this, I will give the benefit of the doubt to locals' ancient history/traditions when there's no clinching evidence to gainsay them. It's what I expect in return (though of course, wackypedia or indologicals or hateward have no honest principles and won't ever comply).

That's not to say you shouldn't continue speculating - it is very likely one may derive the proof by assuming A, and assuming B, then finding proof of A and then of B too; then you've proved A AND B, Q.E.D. But until that final step, one should clearly say they are assumptions and no more.

In any case, don't worry. It's unlikely I'll be interfering in your posts again. I know where you stand on certain issues and there's no point disputing them.

ADDED: I find some of your speculations about Nagas plausible - your Mexican map thing was quite a significant point; others I find are based on more flimsy indicators. When it involves the last kind, I most certainly oppose claims for appropriation of other's cultures.

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - Guest - 11-19-2007

We or rather I am still in ..connecting the dots stage.. whatever hard evidence that falls into ones lap is extremely co-incidental but at same time highly satisfying, and at this point to demand 'hard evidence' is very unkind. There is a lot more information to be gathered before the thrust towards hard evidence can be launched. There is a need to cut through decades of western psy-ops and undermining of eastern cultures. But firstly there needs to be a enough information available to decide what exactly is psy-ops.

As regarding Naga connection to China, in my opinion, it is highly dependent on Naga presence in Central Asia because that would easily prove as to how culture and symbols were transmitted across to various zones.

Wikipedia's text on Nagavanshi clans and their origins also include Jat clans of North India and also Kashmir. Now, we do know that Jat/Rajput are of hephthalite (him-taali)/snowy plains origin (or is that also in debate ?), and that kind of land is typical of terrain found in Central Asia esp Kazakhstan, Almaty, Bishkek etc. If Sakas did indeed travel across to Europe, we do know that these interconnected tribes took the Naga culture along with them.

Post modern China is a proud culture and in any case will not admit openly to having borrowed cultural symbols from Central Asia, since they have set themselves up to be the 'original people' with original narrative. But at the same time the ease with which they accepted the buddhist dragon-guard narrative can be an indicator that they were similarly open to Naga cultural influences and symbols as well. That is how pre-Buddhist dragon culture was established in China.

QUOTEIn any case, don't worry. It's unlikely I'll be interfering in your posts again. I know where you stand on certain issues and there's no point disputing them.

Please do contribute, because we do not know what inputs might help in connecting further dots. This is very important to remove centuries of propaganda. But it is good that you have come to understand where I stand on certain issues, it will help understanding respective positions better.

Added: You talked about appropriating other cultures in case of China, as we observe from history there always have been centres of culture from where the tributaries and surrounding areas have gained ideas and symbols from. Greco-Roman in case of Europe is an example, Mayan civilization in case of South America, Babylonian/Sumerian in case of Middle East Asia and Naga civilization in case of Central Asia and Far East. I do not see a problem with flows of ideas from Naga centres to China. It is just an idea and a symbol they found fascinating, we are in no way appropriating their culture.

Post-Buddhist connection in dragon-symbol is in any case obviuos and proves itself. We can find it that historically as well as in present the Chinese do have a habit of absorbing ideas that they find to be interesting. Only thing missing is the 'hard evidence' which I am sure will surface soon.

Miscellaneous Topics discussion - Guest - 11-19-2007

Nagavanshi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagavanshi

The Nagavanshi dynasty (Sanskrit:à¤¨à¤¾à¤ à¤µà¤à¤¶à¥) is one of the Kshatriya dynasties of India. It includes a number of Jat people clans but is dominant in Kerala. The group of people developed their Vansha according to their system of worship. The worshippers of NÄga were known as NÄgÄ or NÄgil. The descendants of NÄgas were called Nagavanshi. Some Jats claim to be of naga origin.

Serpent Totem and Naga race
... Nagas were also tribes which, had serpent as their totem. They worshipped serpents and consider them to be their protector deities. They also used to wear artificial hoods of cobra on their heads. [7]

They were in origin indigenous Kshatriyas. They ruled all over India during history and pre-historic time. Some of the Naga Kings and families can be enumerated as under: Ahivritra, Ashwasena, Takshaka, Gonanda, Lohara, Karkota of North; Brahamadutta of Kashi, Sishunaga and Nanda of Magadha, of North east; Nagas of Padmavati (Bharsiva), Vidisa, Eran, Mathura, Ahichchhattra, Kausambi, Malava, Chakrakot, Bhogwati, in Central India; Andhra or Satvahanas (235 BC -225 AD) Chuttus, Chalukya, Pallava, Kadamba, Chhindaka, Chera, Chola of South India etc. Most of the above Naga families ruled between 500 BC and 500 AD and some of them onward up to the Mughal period. [8]

The Harappan Civilization and cult of Naga Worship
The Indus Valley Civilization which is the most ancient civilization of India, was spread up in North-West: Harappa, Mohenjodaro , Chanhudaro and Lothal were its most important towns. The founders of Indus valley civilization were Mediterraneans or Dravidians and Australoids, [9] where as, round headed Alpines, appeared, in mature age of this culture. [10] In excavation of these towns, in addition to Burnished Red ware, a very high number of seals and seal impressions have also been found out. Among the seals so found out on one seal, there is a figure of chief deity with buffalo head, on its both sides, are two other man deities and behind each of them is a serpent in standing posture. On another seal, there is a serpent, in standing posture, behind the bull, which is fighting with a mighty man. [11] On another third seal, there is a serpent resting his head on a Wooden bench or seat, which is protecting a tree deity. [12]

The presence of serpents on all the above three seals, establishes that the serpent was their (Harappans) protector deity and symbol of authority of rule. We can draw the following conclusion from the above detail:

The tradition of serpent worship or totemisim was prevalent in Indus Valley Civilization
The scene depicted on the seal no.-2, shows its relation with the myths of Bobylonia, which proves origin of this tradition on Western Asia.
This fact finding is further corroborated by seal, No.4 This figure is incised on a cylinder seal recovered form Babylonia (Lajards culte de Mithra). This proves the origin of tradition of tree and serpent worship in Babylonia, from where later on it was transferred to Indus Valley. [13]

[edit] Description of Nagas or Serpents in Vedas

[edit] The Rigveda
In Rigvedic account there is mention of Naga (Serpent ) race, Naga kings and Naga warriors.

There is description [14] of serpent deity âAhivritraâ in the verses of this sacred book âAhiâ is synonym of serpent . The word â Ahi Budhna (the serpent of base of a mountain ) has come twelve times in the Rigveda. [15]

According to Oldenberg water is a form of serpent and according to Macdonell [Keith A.B. âThe Religion and Philosophy of the Vedas and Upnishadas, p.193], they (Serpents) are the forms of Ahivritra, who is thought to be heavenly, it is conclusive that ahi-Budhna who is thought to be heavenly it is conclusive that Ahi Budhna of Rigveda was a serpent deity who was worshipped. [16]

The Description of Vritra also has come repeatedly in Ragveda. [17] He was deadly enemy of Indra, and he ultimately was killed by the later, he also has been called by the names like Dasyu, Dasa, Asura and Ahi in Rigveda, the word âAhiâ had also come for serpent. It means Ahi was a serpent. The greatest Ahi of Vedic poet was Vritra sarpa (Vritra serpent) which could block waters (Rivers) [Keith A.B. âThe Religion and Philosophy of the Vedas and Upnishadas, p.193] In Atharva-ved and later Brahmanical literature there is also mention of â Ahiâ Along with Vritra. [18] Ahi is a title of Naga Kings and as well as serpent. In support of this view there are enormous evidence in sanskrit scripture such as in Amarkosha (First kanda) in the list of serpents there is mention of âAhiâ . In Hindi dictionary of Nalanda the meaning of âAhiâ is serpent and Vritrasur. In the sanskrit Hindi dictionary of Apte, the meaning of âAhiâ is serpent â boa.â In Rigveda ( VII-50-1 to 3) âAhiâ has been stated to be a dangerous serpent . In Uttar Pradesh the cultural center of mediaeval period was Ahichchhattra (centre of Naga rule) which was situated in the district of Barrielly. This was the capital of ancient Naga kings. [19]

This is quite clear that âAhiâ as described in Rigveda, was a serpent or Naga race, whose king was Vritra or Ahivritra.

[edit] The Atharva-Veda
Dr Bhagwatsharan Upadhyay, the famous scholar of ancient history and culture, has noted [Bharatiya Samaj Ka Etihasik Vishleshan, p.44] some hymns of Atharva-Veda (V-13-6 to 10), which have reference of Assyrian Naga kings Aligi and Viligi. This proves that Naga worship and totemism tradition came to India from Assyria. [20]

[edit] History of Nagavansh
Lal Pradaman Singh[21] has written the history of Nagavansh. He writes that NÄgas were originated from Kashyapa. The NÄgvanshis acquired the status of Devas due to their excellent qualities, behavior and actions. PurÄnas mention NÄgas along with devas. PurÄnas mention of many NÄga Kingdoms. In ancient times NÄgas were the rulers of entire India. During their peak period of rule they had sent armies to other countries also conquered them. In many places Indian NÄgas have been mentioned as ruling dynasties such as TÄk, Taxak, TÄnak, Tushta etc. Apart from these there were many branches of NÄgas such as Karkotaka Vanshi, Shesha Vanshi, VÄsuki Vanshi, Ahi Vanshi, Manibhadra Vanshi etc. These branches further developed as sub branches such as Sind Vansh, Kushan Vansh, Vaish Vansh and Saindhav Vansh etc.

The group of people developed their Vansha according to their system of worship of Devas and NÄgas. In Devas the worshippers of Indra were known as Aindra, worshippers of Varun as VÄrun, worshippers of Mitra as Maitreya or MitrÄ, worshippers of Shiva as Shivi or Shaivya, worshippers of Marut as MÄrut, worshippers of Gandharva as GÄndharva, worshippers of Shesha as Sheshma, worshippers of Karka as Karkotaka, worshippers of NÄga as NÄgÄ or NÄgil.

[edit] Nagavanshis in Kerala
The Nagavanshi dynasty also includes the warrior Sections of the Nair caste who are also of Naga origin. The Nagavanshi is the Serpent dynasty. Serpents were worshipped by many castes in Kerala probably indicating the native Keralite origins of various Nair sub-castes.

[edit] Serpent worship
The serpent worhship is one of the main religious practices in coastal Karnataka and Kerala, along with goddess(Bhagavathi, Korati, Kali, Bhadrakali) worhship and spirit worship where the declared lower castes and tribes took part in the past. In fact, you could find priests who could be some kind of Shamans from these communities for these worships. This could be contrasted with other Hindu Siva, Vishnu worships where the priests are exclusively Brahmins and in fact, many of these castes were barred from being part of it.

The Pullavar community was responsible for the ritualistic dance known as Sarpam Tullal during this worship. The similar dance known as Nagamandala was performed by a community called Baidya which was part of Billavas in coastal Karnataka.

[edit] Naga dynasties of Jats
According to Jat historian Ram Swarup Joon[22], NÄgas had a number of ruling dynasties such as Takshak Nag, Bachak Nag, Kilkil Nag, Karkotaka, Kaliramna etc all of which are Jat gotras. Mathura, Padmavati and Kantipur were capitals of Naga dynasty. Nagas of Padmavati were called Taank, which is also a Jat gotra, and are found in 24 villages near Sonipat.

In chapter 29 of "India of the Dark Ages" the ancestor of Tanks is mentioned as Raja Gajvkatra. In chapter 42 of the same book it is mentioned that Malla Jat Republic extended from Eastern Punjab to the Ganga and Yodhya republic extended into Rajasthan. Nagpur belonged to the Nagas. Nagar Brahmins also originated from there.

The Pauranic prejudice in the story is understandable. The Jats who followed Buddhism were considered renegades and those who adopted Vaishnavism became staunch Hindus.

Naga gotra (clan) of Jats are found in Nagaur and Sikar districts of Rajasthan and Khargone district of Madhya Pradesh. The villages inhabited by Naga Jats in Sikar district are - Dujod, Kanwarpura, Rampura, Sikar. In Madhya Pradesh Naga Jats are found in Badwah and Khargone.

[edit] List of Nagavanshi Jat clans
Some of the nagavanshi Jat clans are [23][24][25]

ÄbÅ«dÄ, Ächashw, Ahi, Air, AirÄwat, ÄligÄ«, AparÄjit, Äpt, ÄrtimÄn, Äryak, Asit, Aulak, Avalak, Avyay, AyÄhaá¹, BÄmal, BÄnÄ, BarojwÄr, BÄsaá¹h, BaulyÄ, BeniwÄl, Bhakar, BhÄkhar, BhÄá¹mÅ«, Bharaá¹gur, BhÄrshiv, Bheá¹roá¹, Bhinchar, BÄ«hal, BÄ«lwÄn, BirÄlÄ, Dahiya, Dhaka, DhaulyÄ, DeÅ«, Devatra, GorÄ, Imeguh, KÄjal, KÄlÄ, Kalash, KÄle RÄwat, KÄlÄ«, KÄlÄ« Ramaá¹, KÄlÄ« RamatÄ, KÄlÄ« RÄwate, KÄlÄ« RÄye, KÄlÄ«á¸haman, KÄlÄ«shak, KÄlÄ«y, KalmÄsh, Kalwaria, KalwÄriyÄ, KalyÄ, Kalya, KalyÄá¹, Kamal, Kanwal, KariyÄ, Karkar, Karkoá¹ak, KarvÄ«r, Kharwal, Khokhar, Khoá¹á¸al, Koná¸Äl, KothÄr, Kulak, KulakiyÄ, KulÄr, Kullar, Kuá¹á¸odar, Kumuá¸, Kuná¸al, Kunjar, KushmÄná¸ak, Kuá¹har, LegÄ, Lochag, MatwÄ, MÄtwe, Muá¸wÄá¸iyÄ, Mundel, NÄg, NÄgÄ, NÄgar, NÄgauriyÄ, NÄ«l, OdasÄ«, OlÄ, Paá¸wÄl, PÄgwaá¹, PÄhal, PÄl, Paá¹á¸ahÄrÄ«, PÄá¹á¸ar, PÄá¹á¸ul, Pandul, PanjÄ, PÄnn, ParsÄne, Paá¹hur, Pauá¸iyÄ, PehalÄyaá¹, Piá¹á¸ale, PodÄn, PÅ«chale, Punia, RÄhal, Roj, Roja , Rotra, Sagsail, Saharan, SÄmotÄ, SamrÄ, SÄngÅ«, SawaÅ«, SewdÄ, SheshÄno, SheshmÄ, Shwitra, Shyaukand, SihÄg, SiraswÄr, SitarwÄr, SiwÄyach, SumrÄ, SÅ«talÄ, Takhar, Takshak, á¹¬Äá¹k, Tankor, Tetarwl, TÄ«tarwÄl, Tokas, Toran, Udwal, Ugrak, VaharwÄl, Vais, Varik, Vará¹wÄl, Vasath, VaurÄá¹, VÄvan, VÄ«han, VodiyÄ, YolyÄ,

[edit] Genealogy of NÄga kshatriyas
The list of rulers in the genealogy of NÄga kshatriyas, as provided by Kishori Lal Faujdar[26], is as under:

Shesha, VÄsuki, ArÄwati, Taxak,Tonk, Karkotak, Dhananjay, KÄliya, ManinÄth, ÄyÅ«raá¹a (Pauniya), Pinjarak, AlÄwat, VÄman, NÄ«l, AnÄ«l, KalmÄsha, Shabal, Äryak, Ugrak Kalash, Pok, Sumand, DÄ«ghamukh, Nimal Pindak, Shankh, BÄl Shiv, VishtÄvak, Imeguh, Nahusha, Pingala, Bahya Vará¹a, Hastipad, Mundar, Pindak, Karal, Ashwatar, KÄlÄ«shak, Pahal, TÅ«n Danvartak, Shankhamukh, KushmÄndak, semak, ChindÄrak, KarvÄ«r, Pushpadand, Vilvak, PÄndhÅ«r, MÅ«shakÄd, ShankhasirÄ, PÅ«rá¹Ämadra, Haridrak, AparÄjit, Jotik, Pannag, SrÄvah, Kauravya, Dhritarashtra, Shankhapind, VirjÄ, Suvahu, ShÄlipind, Haritpind, Pithrak, Sumukh, Koá¹aya Dashan, Kuthar, Kunjar, PrabhÄkar, Kusad, Halak, KumudÄksha, Tittar, MahÄsarp, Kadanm, BahumÅ«lak, Karkar, Kundaudar, Mahodara, Nambiar.

[edit] Nagavanshi kings in Mahabharata
Mahabharata counts following more Naga clans â Ahi, Shivatra, (Khet) Ashit, Serbhak, Sevridha, Astin, Kantat, Spaj, Anat, Kulik, ShankhapÄl, DarvÄ«, AchÄswa, Ajgar, ÄligÄ«, VilagÄ«, OrÄ«visha, Karikrat, Kasá¹Ä«nla, Tirashcha Raji, Naimarat, PrÄ«dÄkÅ«, PrÄ«dÄmÄ«, Rajju, LohitÄhÄ«, RatharvÄ«, VÄhas, SerbhÄ.

The Nagavanshi kings had a symbol of Naga or serpent on their coins and flags. The coins of Nagavanshi rulers are still found at village ÄhÄr in Bulandshar district in Uttar Pradesh. These coins depict symbols of Nagas on them. There is mention of Nagas in Mahabharata in a story in which Duryodan poisoned Bhima to kill and threw into Ganga River. When he was foating inriver he reached village ÄhÄr where the Nagavanshi rulers took him out from Ganga River and gave treatment to cure. After treatment he was sent to Hastinapur.

Arjuna, the son of Pandu, was married to Nagavanshi princess Ulupi. This finds mention in Mahabharata. See also

Naga (clan)
Exotic tribes of ancient India
Kingdoms of Ancient India
Naga Kingdom

[edit] References
^ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.226
^ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.226
^ Bharat mien jati bhed, pp.111-12
^ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.227
^ Majumdar D.N. pp346-47
^ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.227
^ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.227
^ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.228
^ Whealer R.E.M., âA.I.â Vol III Bulletin of Archaeological Survey of India (January,1947); Bose N.K. and others âHuman Skeleton from Harappaâ ASIC (1963) pp.58-59
^ Sarkar S.S., âAboriginal Races of Indiaâ, pp.143-45
^ Sastri Kedarnath, New lights on the Indus Civilizationâ Vol I p.35
^ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.228
^ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.229
^ Keith A.B. âThe Religion and Philosophy of the Vedas and Upnishadas, p.193
^ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.229
^ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.230
^ R.V.II-11-5;II-20-7 and V-32-8
^ Mishra D.P. âStudies in the Proto-History of Indiaâ p.87
^ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.230
^ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas the Ancient Rulers of India, p.230
^ Lal Pradaman Singh: The history of Nagavansh
^ Ram Swarup Joon: History of the Jats, Rohtak, India (1938, 1967)
^ Dr Mahendra Singh Arya, Dharmpal Singh Dudee, Kishan Singh Faujdar & Vijendra Singh Narwar: Ädhunik Jat Itihasa (The modern history of Jats), Agra 1998
^ Mansukh Ranwa:Kshatriya Shiromani Vir Tejaji, Page 9
^ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas â The Ancient Rulers of India, Their Origins and History (The History of the Indigenous people of India Vol. 2), Published by Originals (an imprint of Low Price Publications), Delhi, 2002, ISBN 81-7536-287-1
^ Kishori Lal Faujdar: Uttar Pradesh ke Madhyakalin Jatvansh aur Rajya, Jat Samaj, Monthly Magazine, Agra, September-October 1999
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