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Unmasking AIT - dhu - 04-11-2010 There is an intriguing admission by the Witzel types: that Yoga knowledge systems are re-assertions of the indigenous talent after the aryan invasion; despite their unending perfidy, these could not conceptualize any other possibility. The unstated reason for their peculiar stance is that India exported Buddha Dharma while the west exported christianity... This meta level fact constrains historical theorizing. Unmasking AIT - acharya - 04-13-2010 [quote name='dhu' date='11 April 2010 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1270977509' post='105835'] The remainder of the heathen realm was receptive to Indian knowledge because of a shared heathen dynamics; Monotheism systematically eliminated such considerations from the equation and could thus project its present colonization back into the past as well. Probably, there is some need to colonize the past to maintain integrity in the facade. The ancient Judaism/Christianity binary was replicated as a "Hinduism"/Modernism binary. Judaism was the spitted-out shell of the colonized's past. "Hinduism" is the same. [/quote] This is exactly what the DMK dravidian movement is doing. Anything Hindu is considered as "colonizing" Unmasking AIT - ramana - 04-13-2010 dhu Quote:The ancient Judaism/Christianity binary was replicated as a "Hinduism"/Modernism binary. Judaism was the spitted-out shell of the colonized's past. "Hinduism" is the same. By same token can we say Christianity is Judaism's spitted out future and eventually led to Islam and Communism? Another way of saying it is Judaism spat out its normatized process (Egyptian monotheism, the Persian interlude of heaven and hell, dark and light, the Greek/Hellenic reconstruction of Old Testament) as Christianity. And Islam emerged in the nether regions of West Asia, when the Romans took over Christianity. Again as a reaction to Reformation -> Enlightenment etc, Communism emerges to normatize the rest. Unmasking AIT - ramana - 07-01-2010 Are these articles still there somewhere? http://www.india-forum.com/indian_history/aryan_invasion_theory/index.1.html Clicking on them doesn't lead to anywhere. Unmasking AIT - acharya - 08-22-2010 A new foundation for history The idea of the Aryan invasion, related to such concepts as the ââ¬ËAryan raceââ¬â¢ and the ââ¬ËAryan nationââ¬â¢, has more to do with Europe than India. Like the German Nationalist Movement that gave rise to it, the ââ¬ËAryan raceââ¬â¢ concept should be seen as part of European history. It became part of Indian historiography only because it could be used to impose a Eurocentric version of Indian history to go with European colonialism. Its creators and beneficiaries were mainly colonial scholars and Christian missionaries. They made no secret of their intentions. Lord Elphinstone, Governor of Bombay, once said: "Divide and rule was Roman policy and it should also be ours." This was put into practice in the form of the invading fair-skinned Aryans colonizing the dark-skinned Dravidiansââ¬â little more than a copy of European colonization of Asia and Africa. [size="6"] And W.W. Hunter, a leading Indologist of the nineteenth century wrote: "Scholarship is warmed with the holy flame of Christian zeal." It was such scholars who created the version of history that went into textbooks in colonial India.[/size] This is understandable from the colonial point of view, but why are they still taught in Indian schools and colleges fifty years after independence, especially when they are entirely without a scientific foundation or even rudimentary evidence? To understand this, it helps to recognize that British education left behind an elite that was cut off from Indian tradition but uncritically accepted anything coming from the West as valid. [size="6"] This elite soon gained monopoly of the Indian intellectual and educational establishment. This allowed a ââ¬Ëcolonial hangoverââ¬â¢ to continue, with the same version of history becoming the version favored by the Indian ââ¬Ëestablishmentââ¬â¢. This was supplemented by another Eurocentric ideology called Marxism, which became the official position of the Indian establishment.[/size] This had been anticipated by Sri Aurobindo long ago when he wrote: "That Indian scholars have not been able to form themselves into a great and independent school of learning is due to two causes: the miserable scantiness of the mastery in Sanskrit provided by our universities, crippling to all but born scholars, and our lack of sturdy independence which makes us over-ready to defer to European [and Western] authority." This colonial-Marxist elite dominated the history establishment, leading to stifling of debate and rejection of alternative viewpoints. In the circumstances, it is no accident that the most significant advances in Indian history ââ¬â from the discovery of the Vedic Sarasvati River to the decipherment of the Harappan script ââ¬â should have come from the work of non-establishment scholars. As for as the Harappan civilization is concernedââ¬â we now have conclusive evidence to show that it was Vedic. What is presented in the present article is a small part of the new picture. The deciphered readings make it even more conclusive. (For details see The Deciphered Indus Script by N. Jha and N.S. Rajaram, Aditya Prakashan, Delhi.) The two great weaknesses of the Indian history establishment ââ¬â apart from their lack of independence ââ¬â are ignorance of the scientific method and ignorance of the primary languages. [size="6"]These weaknesses have led its members to apply modern trappings like Christian prejudices and Marxism to people and cultures that lived thousands of years ago. [/size] This suggests that a new school of scholarship needs to be built that combines traditional learning like Vedic scholarship and the modern scientific method. They provide a firm foundation for ancient Indian history by linking archaeology to ancient literature, beginning with the Rigveda. Such an approach has already yielded dividends in solving the demanding problem of deciphering the Indus script. The present article provides other examples of such a mix. The study of ancient Indian can now begin in real earnest, based on science and the primary sources rather than on the whims and fancies of colonial and missionary interests. This has been long overdue. http://www.vandemataram.com/html/aryan/arti4_2.htm Unmasking AIT - ramana - 08-24-2010 News Report in Pioneer... Quote:FLASH | Tuesday, August 24, 2010 | Email | Print | | Back Unmasking AIT - ramana - 09-14-2010 India: The seductive and the seduced other of German Orientalism by Kamakshi Murti Unmasking AIT - ramana - 09-15-2010 Dhu, Another book is "Indo-German Identifcation". by Robert Cowan It gives avery clear track record of how the Europeans viewed the idea of India and sought to get out of Judiac origins theory. It has later chapters where they go voer the top. Google Books: Indo-German Identification The big idea is there were two main streams in Europe: Latinification and Germanism. Latinification as it was already normatized by Judeo-Christian ideas had the early lead and did not question the Bibilial account for they benefiteed from it. The Germanism was reaction to the Latinised monoploy and sought to assert itself. The first concrete step was the Holy Roman Empire which was Germanic. This is approximately 9 centuries after Rome conquered the Goths who are Germanic. Later it launched Protestant movement which led to Church Reformation. The English who are really Latinised derivatives managed to colonise ahead of the Germanic landlubbers and confined them to the continent. The war of 1760 saw the rise of Prussia, Russia as continental powers. The events of WWI and WWII are part of the Germanic breakout of the older Latinised/Roman imperial order. Unmasking AIT - ramana - 10-13-2010 On the Greek and Hebrew symbiosis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_Gordon Quote:Not afraid of scholarly controversy, Gordon challenged traditional theories about Greek and Hebrew cultures. In the 1960s, he declared his examination of Minoan (Cretan) texts corroborated his long-held theory that Greek and Hebrew cultures stemmed from a common Semitic heritage. He asserted that this culture spanned the eastern Mediterranean from Greece to Palestine during the Minoan era. Unmasking AIT - G.Subramaniam - 10-17-2010 http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/bild-723310-141465.html Unmasking AIT - ramana - 11-09-2010 Suzanne L. Marchand, "German Orientalism in the Age of Empire: Religion, Race, and Scholarship" C-bridge | 2010 | ISBN: 0521169070, 0521518490 | 560 pages | Quote:Nineteenth-century studies of the Orient changed European ideas and cultural institutions in more ways than we usually recognize. "Orientalism" certainly contributed to European empire-building, but it also helped to destroy a narrow Christian-classical canon. This carefully researched book provides the first synthetic and contextualized study of German Orientalistik, a subject of special interest because German scholars were the pace-setters in oriental studies between about 1830 and 1930, despite entering the colonial race late and exiting it early. The book suggests that we must take seriously German orientalism's origins in Renaissance philology and early modern biblical exegesis and appreciate its modern development in the context of nineteenth- and early-twentieth-century debates about religion and the Bible, classical schooling, and Germanic origins. In ranging across the subdisciplines of Orientalistik, German Orientalism in the Age of Empire introduces readers to a host of iconoclastic characters and forgotten debates, seeking to demonstrate both the richness of this intriguing field and its indebtedness to the cultural world in which it evolved. Unmasking AIT - G.Subramaniam - 01-20-2013 The Aryan Invasion Theory has had 2 bad effects on India In South India, the Church is using this to stir up anti-brahmin and anti-North Indian feelings. Also trying to incite the Dalits In North India, foolish people who think they have a drop of white blood and hence are superior to SDRE Indians and call them Kallu, usually I see Jats, Sikhs, Punjabis , even Coorgis ( in Karnataka ) all claim to be descended from Aryans, Scythians or been raped by Alexanders soldiers. One symptom we can see is that many North Indians abroad, prefer to socialize with Pakistanis ( who also claim to have Aryan, Persian, Turk and Arab blood ) vs SDRE Indians Unmasking AIT - Husky - 01-12-2014 Post 1/? Not about AIT. But PIE. In particular things claimed for PIE mythology / as "originating" in PIE mythology. And hence leading to IE encroachment on others heathenisms. (Yet, with no actual evidence provided by PIE-ists. Only the word "potentially".) In another thread, had mentioned the famous Shinto sacred narrative of Heavenly Sea Kami Susano-o-no-mikoto subduing the Orochi. I got confused: it was an 8-headed and 8-tailed snake not a dragon. Wacky on Susanowo vs Orochi: Quote:Mythology[edit] The above is just part of Susano-o's narrative, he goes on to more after that. Still, so far so good, but to make it clear: each of the 8 heads entered by a different gate out of the 8 gates, where each head was trapped by Susano-o for easy dispatching (and which the head didn't notice because it was intoxicated from the ricewine/sake). As indicated above, it was the divine sword that he found in Orochi - which he gave to his sister Goddess Amaterasu to make amends and which eventually passed down to Japan's emperors - that became the Japanese treasure, not (as I had misremembered) Susano-o's own sacred sword. The reason for this set of posts is in the following: Quote:Etymology[edit] Since multiple heads/tails aren't necessary to the pattern claimed for IE and since they're conflating dragon with serpent - thus allowing both kinds of creatures - I note they left several other famous Chinese cases that are in some ways more similar to Orochi's case - and of course have left out traditional African narratives (including one about a hero that I familiar was with from an African tales anthology). Also left out is the famous instance of Apollo vs the Python at Delphi and Apollo thereafter making it his own sacred seat/dwelling. [And concerning the Babylonian case of Tiamat, though, even the wacky page for Tiamat admits the following, which implies attempt to force it into the pattern: Quote:"Though Tiamat is often described by modern authors as a sea serpent or dragon, no ancient texts exist in which there is a clear association with those kinds of creatures, and the identification is debated.[9]"] The problem: - How PIE-ists claim - via words like "potentially" - that the motif "must" be PIE originally and hence borrowed by others (non-IE populations) from them. Ref the statement: "The myth of a Storm God fighting a Sea Serpent is itself a popular mythic trope potentially originating with the Proto-Indo-European religion[3] and later transmitted into the religions of the Ancient Near East" The whole pretence that such things "must" be IE - when it is common to a lot of people throughout the world, the examples will follow - is the usual PIE arrogance coupled with the usual ignorance of PIE-ists in not bothering to check various independent non-IE traditions first in order to see if these have something similar or if a larger pattern emerges that undermines the limited selection of features conveniently identified as forming the trope for consideration. They've even named it. "Chaoskampf". There's the implication that its origins are more in a sort of kosmic struggle (order vs chaos in religio is generally cosmic) - and certainly, Indra wasn't fighting some garden snake: Vritra was supposed to hogging the Cosmic Waters and causing drought that way. [Moreover, they admit they can't even force a phonological connection to Indra vs [IIRC TvaShtaa's son?] Trishiras in Susano-o's case. The Sake and Soma are - on surface - good excuses for PIE-ists to fasten thesmelves on, but what about other "motifs" - as in, elements common to similar serpent/dragon related narratives elsewhere - that don't appear to feature in PIE's limited set of defining features for this trope which yet occur in Susano-o's exploit against Orochi?] Miller's use of "speculation" is appropriate, in this statement again from above: Quote:Miller (1987:647) criticized Benedict for overlooking Old Japanese "worö 'tail' + suffix -ti [/b]ââ¬â as well as an obvious Tungus etymology, [Proto-Tungus] *xürgü-ÃÂi 'the tailed one'", and notes "this apparently well-traveled orochi has now turned up in the[/color] [color=red]speculation [color=blue][b]of the [Indo-European] folklorists (Littleton 1981)." Why don't PIE-ists get PROOF of transmission first, before jumping to the conclusion that the Shinto narrative about Susanoo must be derived (or inspired)? If insinuating derivation, there are other cases that have far more similarities that can be considered as a better model for the original. Following posts will go over - more concerning Susano'o including the rest of the narrative - cases from other countries - snakes, dragons in environmental water control - the elements of similarity in Susanoo vs Orochi to cases outside of the PIE trope that are being ignored in order to forcefit the Shinto instance as a PIE-derivative (from where the PIEists make the claim) Unmasking AIT - Husky - 01-12-2014 Post 2/ Japan's Shinto Kami Susano-o Kojiki = name of a sacred Shinto text (based on much older oral tradition) concerning the religio-history of Japan/the Shintos. As such it starts with the Gods (i.e. Japanese native collective memory of origins including the material formation of the islands of Japan) and from there it then ends in Japanese history (as far as history had got to at the point of recording). britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/321176/Kojiki Quote:Kojiki, (Japanese: ââ¬ÅRecords of Ancient Mattersââ¬Â), together with the Nihon shoki, the first written record in Japan, part of which is considered a sacred text of the Shintà  religion. The Kojiki text was compiled from oral tradition in 712. b. Notes Susano'o = brother of Sun Goddess Amaterasu and Moon God. He is himself a Sea God, and also a Storm God of sorts: being particularly the Summer Storm (not other storm - other Kami for that). Unlike any Cosmic Serpent/Cosmic Chaos motifs, the narrative of Susano'o is very grounded: by a local (historical, extant) river in Japan, the 8 headed Orichi was demanding yearly sacrifices of the daughters of 2 Earthly/Earth-dwelling Kami. The Heavenly Kami arrives from the Shinto heavenly regions and does away with the Orochi, by first getting it drunk on sake (sake is therefore famous in the region), marries the remaining daughter whom he has rescued - the Kami princess Inata - and chooses a wonderful place in Japan to build a palace for them to reside. He composes the first poem of Japan commemorating this site for their residence and showing his intent to protect his Wife. Note: *All* these places - where Orochi was buried by Susano'o, the location of the Sake vats, the place of romantic settlement and their first of many children, the entire district famous for sake brewing etc etc are Shrines to these Gods. If Susano-o is reminiscent of Bhagavaan Indra when wrestling the snake Orochi (though the Shinto case concerns a much more local, earthly and direct threat), then he is like Shiva-Somaskandan at the Marriage Shrine at Yaegaki: where he resides married with Wife and Baby, and being represented at the marriage/divine family residence site by numerous unmistakeably phallic stone sculptures* to which offerings to these Gods are made with hopes of romance/marriage and/or fertility. IIRC the entire family is further present there by 3 sacred stones (like shaaligraamam) to which offerings are made: Father Kami Susano-o, Mother Kami Inata-Hime and their first Baby Kami (a son I think). [Also compare with other cases, like the famous Wedded Rocks in Japan - svayambhu forms of 2 Japanese Shinto Gods who are connected/indicated by a chain as often happens in Japan - is another instance of 2 married Kamis. I even read a Shinto site "explaining" the Wedded Rocks and the Chain with allusion to Shiva, Parvati and the thaali he puts round her neck. Though generally, many Shinto sites - which are sites where the Kami are known to dwell/entrance to Kami realm - are themselves indicated by either a chain or a gate as marker.] This is not some battle taking place "who knows where" at some cosmic level or in The Beyond (wherever that is) or in the abstract. This was a battle that is supposed to have taken place in Japan, by the River Hii in specific, and the God and his Divine Family dwells all over the shrines of the Sanin region. I.e. it is known, lived-in geography. The Shinto Kami residing on earth all live in earthly sites in Japanese space. These spaces are marked/cordoned off with gates and chains to indicate they are sacred sites belonging to the Kami/residences of the Kami. * There are several famous sacred Shinto fertility matsuri (festivals) specifically involving the divine male and/or female reproductive organ associated with various Kamis and their spouses. IIRC, in one, the Shintos have a ratha-type procession to carry the Lingam of the husband Kami to the residence housing the Yoni of the wife Kami and re-join the two in sacred Kami union. One such famous matsuri is typically annually terrorised by increasing numbers of repressed alien tourists who tend to invade just for the purpose, where they giggle hysterically and take pictures to lampoon "those funny Japanese". Meanwhile the Shintos - old and young - have been caught on invasive cameras bowing with full and deep reverence to the sacred symbola of their Kamis, and praying for children or spouses or a happy romantic life or just for general blessings. But that's the usual difference between aliens=morons and heathens. c. Directly-related shrines and sacred sites Selected excerpts from the following (by a foreigner staying/working in Sanin): saninstory.wordpress.com/2013/06/05/yamata-no-orochi-tour-part-1-of-3/ saninstory.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/yamata-no-orochi-tour-part-2-of-3/ saninstory.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/yamata-no-orochi-tour-part-3-of-3/ (Useful in that it goes through various sacred sites of the specific region concerning Kami-sama Susano-o and his exploit against the Orochi and subsequent marriage to Kami-sama Inata-Hime, and the birth of their children) Quote:Unnan (éâºÂ²Ã¥Ââ) is a fairly new city, established in 2004 with the merger of five towns and one village. Itââ¬â¢s in the southern (Ã¥Ââ) part of the Izumo region (Ã¥â¡ÂºÃ©âºÂ², which is also sometimes called Unshuu éâºÂ²Ã¥Â·Å¾ with an alternate pronunciation for éâºÂ²), hence the name. Not all of the sites having to do with the Yamata-no-Orochi legend take place within the city borders, but most of them do, so many public areas and businesses decorate with giant serpant motifs. For a harrowing monster thatââ¬â¢s inspired countless artistic renditions throughout Japanese history and more recently served as the inspiration for foes facing everyone from Godzilla to Doraemon, it hasnââ¬â¢t been able to escape modern Japanââ¬â¢s kawaiiifying culture. troutfactory.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/shimane-part-i-at-yaegaki-jinja/ Quote:Glimpses of Unfamiliar Japan includes a chapter about Yaegaki-jinja that reveals the meaning of the shrineââ¬â¢s name by way of the famous story about how Susanoo rescued Kushinada from the Yamato no Orochi, a giant snake with eight heads and eight tails. ââ¬ÅYaegakiââ¬Â can literally be translated as ââ¬Ëeight-fold fenceââ¬â¢ or ââ¬Ëfences within fences,ââ¬â¢ a name that references the device devised by Susanoo to defeat the Eight-Forked Serpent. Hearn retells this story based on what has been written in the Kojiki, but here Iââ¬â¢ll include the shorter version of this story that is found in the Nihon Shoki (as translated by William George Aston): hellojapan.asia/en/travel-guide/yaegakijinja-shrine.html Quote:In the legend ââ¬ÅYamata-no-Orochiââ¬Â, after slaying the eight-headed serpent, the deity Susanoo and his new bride, Kushi-inada-Hime, made this shrine their home and it has therefore come to be known as the shrine of happy marriages. In the shrine grounds you can find the ââ¬ÅMirror Pondââ¬Â, which Kushi-inada-Hime used as a mirror. There is a custom of placing a coin on a piece of paper and floating it on the surface of the pond. The length of time the paper takes to sink is said to signify your luck in love. More Japanese tourist sites: + hero-travel-spt.jp/chugoku_Shimane_yaegaki_shrine.html + city.matsue.shimane.jp/kankou/vr/en/kaisetu/yaegaki.html + jnto.go.jp/eng/indepth/exotic/JapanesQue/1110/enmusubi.html - general listing of famous shrines/sites for "en-musubi (marriage)" blessings including a section on Yaegaki + visitshimane.com/?p=2806 - Hinomisaki Shrine: a temple to both Susano-o and his sister Amaterasu, where they worship the evening Sun with rituals (beautiful pictures) d. Symbola at Yaegaki shrine + photos of the important sacred symbola: culturejapan.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-2.html + wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaegaki_Shrine Quote:Yaegaki Shrine e. On Sake As seen in the bit on Izumo Taisha, Sake is the drink of the Kami (like Soma or Amritam the drink of the Devas, etc, etc). Once the human Japanese learnt to make Sake, they naturally offered it back to their Gods as libation. Sake is generally the most important libation offered to the Kamis, used in all festivals. Sake is both the blessing of the Gods to the Shintos, and the offering to the Gods that gets blessed. The offering to the Gods and subsequent partaking of the sake is sort of a mutual partaking of the sacred liquid. (Same as libation and prasadam in other heathenisms.) Better yet, here: eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=330 Quote:Miki f. Origins of Japanese Poetry examples.yourdictionary.com/japans-oldest-anthology-poem.html Quote:Japan's Oldest Anthology Poem miya-travelog.tumblr.com/post/373946266/yaegaki-shrine-next-shrine-is Quote:Yaegaki Shrine(Various forms of classical/traditional Japanese poetry are to have derived from this) takeit-home.livejournal.com/41301.html (containing a translation to lyrics on Susano-o sung by a named vocaloid=modern Japanese computer-generated voice used in a type of synthetic pop music form) The notes on translation say something interesting: Quote:{This song was REALLY REALLY HARD, but there's extra notes.} (Will get back to this last bit later) I'm not sure whether Orochi itself was a deity in this case. But because the PIE trope generally expects a serpent/dragon "god" (see final wacky line quoted in previous post), and because other cases in E Asia and other parts of the world do often involve a serpent or dragon that is a deity, often a water deity, thought I'd mention: Suijin (Water Kami) are a special class of Kami found in various waters in Japan. They're usually Dragons (similar to Daoism), Snakes, Turtles, Fish or other water dwelling creature, some are more supernatural (special water spirits). Not guessing whether Orochi was itself one, but it bears remarking that all waters (streams, lakes, rivers) in Japan apparently have presiding Kamis. As I understand, sometimes the body of water is the body of the Kami, at other times it's the residence, at other times the spirit of the body of water is the Kami. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 01-12-2014 Post 3/ Korea, China part 1 So: 1. Japan's Shinto Kami Susano-o - at Hii River, defeated snake that was yearly devouring (Kami) female. - snake thought to cause flood. In subduing it, Susano-o is thought to have stopped flood. - Susano-o continued to do further important things thereafter (get married and take up residence, have children) - local geography in Shimane, Sanin is replete with shrines to the various events in the life of not just Orochi but especially Susano-o - local geography in the relevant region (Shimane, Sanin) specifically alludes to the serpent Orochi's anatomy - including its "8-headed/tailed" nature Quote:One of the theories ... about the origins of this legend is that the anatomy of the Yamata-no-Orochi was based on the mountains and the offshoots of the Hii River. Itââ¬â¢s threat to kamikind was likely based on the flooded riverââ¬â¢s threat to humankind. Another [color="#0000FF"]de-mythologising[/color] (de-deifying rather) version - a common (yet not always necessarily modern, at least not in China say) tactic applied to heathen religions - on Susano-o vs Orochi reads as follows. Note it's predictably written by a [color="#0000FF"]foreigner[/color]: cultureinjapan.info/4000/4013.html Quote:It is believed that the terrible snake of mythology was the many rivers, which caused much distress for the people through floods. Susanoo, an engineer, helped control the floods with dikes and dams. The Red River, which was thought to be red from Yamata no Orochi's blood, is the source of iron sand that is the material used to make the famous Japanese swords, as well as knives and agricultural tools---a great discovery! This iron sand, caused the river to be red, and it is still being used by local steel com-panies! There's no mention that I can find of Susanoo being actually recorded as a human let alone engineer anywhere (nor that Susano-o's fight with Orochi represent flooding of Japanese rivers in general, but the specific river system of the region he was in). Which makes it modern de-mythicising/de-heathenising speculation in Japan's case. However, it is useful to paste the above in light of the case of Erlang Shen of Daoism somewhere further below. 2. Korea archive.is/S1YC Quote:Gimneyong Cave blog.korea.net/?p=14458 See image: blog.korea.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/jeju_gimnyeongsagullegend-e1357498547259.jpg Quote:[color="#800080"][img caption][/color] Sculpture of the Gimnyeong Sagul legend. Photo courtesy of Korea Cultural Heritage Foundation - giant snake - demanded (yearly again) virginal sacrifice - would "terrorize" otherwise. No mention of flood or drought as punishment though - giant snake lived in cave. (Like the dragon in the Italian folktale concerning princess Fantaghiro.) - hero lures it with wine and food - like Indra used "soma, wine and food" on Trishiras (?). But no intimation whether the Korean hero got the Korean snake drunk and bloated though, the edibles just seemed to be a trap to lure it elsewhere, where he could spear it. The Japanese God Susano-o actually got his snake adversary drunk. And Indra was supposed to have given the 3-headed one the soma etc as well. Hmm. Maybe bait is just common. After all, people often put out milk for snakes (in snakey regions) to feed them and the serpents go straight for it. Seems SOP for attracting them. - a human hero slays it (not restraining it), BUT, interestingly - and a major departure - the Korean hero is punished in return and dies. Maybe the price of not being a God. If this too will next be 'supposed'=encroached by PIE-ists to have been a PIE-influenced tale of their Chaoskamp where Order triumphs over Chaos at last, is the expectation that the hero remain victoriously alive at the end, instead of dying in sinister fashion himself? - also interesting: the Giant snake's own death resulted in the raining of blood on the human who then dies (does the blood burn him to death, or is he drowned in the rain of blood? Doesn't say. But the verb rain is interesting as it's the only - but almost tennuous - connection to some sort of localised climate control in the snake) Anyway, it is obviously not just a giant snake, but also a magical giant snake, hence "raining blood" in successful vengeance - even after it's dead. IIRC Greece's Medusa's snakey head - even when severed - could drip deadly blood that ravaged the soil on which it fell. Did Perseus' bag containing the head not drip some drops onto areas of Libya turning them into a dry wasteland with poisonous scorpions where the drops fell? (Or something - sorry, poor memory and may be getting my reading confused with Ray Harryhousen's stopmotion of "Clash of the Titans" from childhood) But someone, QUICK, claim this "feature" for jeebus I mean PIE too. In medieval [christian] European narratives, the blood of 'dragons' are supposed to be poisonous still. [[color="#0000FF"]Confirmation concerning Medusa:[/color] The scorpions may be modern Harryhousen's spin, but both the Greek Argonautica and Roman Metamorphoses confirms that dangerous Libyan snakes were seen as having sprung from the blood of Medusa's severed head that dripped onto the land as Perseus was carrying the head over it.] The cave is supposed to be in Jeju. Unless I'm misremembering, Jeju is supposed to have been a stronghold of native Korean religion. At least still in those times. 3. China - 4 examples a. Daoist Erlang Shen (directional warrior God in mandalas, note Shen=God) took on several dragons (his trait) among which he famously subdued a Dragon that was a River God causing a flood and demanding sacricifes to appease it. Don't need the whole life story in detail. The relevant narrative is: Quote:Erlang Shen (äºÅéƎ神), named Yang Jian (æ¨æˬ), is a Chinese God with a third true-seeing eye in the middle of his forehead. After re-iterating much of the same, Wacky has a few more cases involving Erlang vs floods and river dragons: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlang_Shen Just the excerpts on floods, dragons (or dragon princesses), thunder, river god Quote:Erlang Shen (äºÅéƎ神), or Erlang is a Chinese God with a third truth-seeing eye in the middle of his forehead. Erlang Shen - i.e. the God - is also famous from the "Saving Mother/Lotus Lantern" narrative where he was the one who disapproved of his sister (IIRC Goddess [San]Sheng Mu?) marrying a human, and imprisoned her. Her son then saves her - and is taught Tai Chi by the Daoist Thunder God to help him on his way. The son is initially thwarted in his quest to rescue his Mother by her brother, Erlang Shen. This mirrors Erlang's own case where his Mother was a Goddess (sister of Jade Emperor) and his dad a human and which match was initially disapproved of. Daoism's reference to Erlang Shen in rituals is to the God (Shen) not historical/human heroes. The mentioned discrepancies of localities and many instances of different persons (Li Bing, Erlang son of LiBing, Deng Xia, hermit Zhao Yun) may be explained with various reasons: othres viewed as incarnation for the same feat of stopping floods (with or without subduing flood dragons), or viewed as fulfilling Erlang Shen's role, or after the flood is subdued people build a temple to honour the God Erlang Shen himself again as the ultimate benefactor in success in warding off floods and simultaneously dedicate it as a memorial to the human heroes (the way lots of restored temples to the Olympic Gods got dedication plaques commemorating Emperor Julian for his effort in the restoration), or some of the instances may merely be instances of de-mythicising attempts because China explicitly went through a period of de-mythicising of sacred narratives. So it's hard to tell what was merely later attempts at humanising existing/earlier Taoist Gods. E.g. the wacky page on the earlier-mentioned Gong Gong admits en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gong_Gong Quote:"Gong Gong" is sometimes translated as Minister of Works (e.g., in the first chapters of the Shangshu). In this attempt at demythologization, he joins other dubious "ministers", such as Long the Dragon. Anyway, what is noticeable in the relevant narrative is that: - Here, the River God is a (Chinese) dragon that unleashes torrential rains that flood the river. It demands human sacrifices in order for it to keep the floods in check - Erlang (with companions) restrains the dragon and the floods cease - Once more, specific geographies are mentioned in the relevant instance. Specific shrine name Vanquishing Dragon Temple/Fulonguan Temple - Another case is of this Erlang also "suppressing a fire dragon that lived in the mountains north of Dujiangyan by climbing to the top of Mount Yulei, turning into a giant and building a dam with 66 mountains then filling it with water from Dragon Pacifying Pool" Is fire dragon a reference to (a dragon causing) drought? [color="#0000FF"]Generally in China, the 4 to 5 primary Dragons (Dragon Kings) preside over storms, floods, rains etc (weather). There are of course many more Dragons in Daoism: including River Dragons, who - as Gods embodying the river - are viewed as responsible for the floods caused by that river. So the fact that a God/hero has to go off to prevent further suffering owing to such conditions repeats in narratives of China (and Japan and Korea).[/color] b. Nezha "Nezha vs the Dragon Kings" (from "Nezha Nao Hai"* by a Daoist writer based on Daoist tradition) shows Daoist God Nezha prevent the excess torrential rains and flooding that was going on by restraining the Dragon King in charge of this as well as the other directional Dragon Kings. The Chinese cartoon was linked at IF somewhere, but the start of the movie depicts the Dragon Kings of the seas causing floods and insisting to be appeased by "human sacrifices" and not accepting animal sacrifices*. This is when Nezha intervenes on behalf of humanity and restores the balance. (*But note: the Dragon Kings of the Seas/Directions are actually benign. The Nezha narrative is actually about floods/dangerous levels of excess rain for which the Dragon Kings - who are in charge of these things - were therefore held responsible.) Once more notice that the narrative concerns: - humans suffering from floods and sacrificing children to appease the Dragons in charge - Daoist God Nezha restrains the Dragons and restores the balance, no more floods Unmasking AIT - Husky - 01-12-2014 Post 4/ China part 2, and Ghana c. "Yu the Great defeats Xianglui 9 headed serpent who works for Gong Gong" This is the example that the opening excerpt on wacky gave for the Chinese case of the allegedly PIE allegedly "chaoskampf". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_the_Great says that he's remembered for dredging and irrigation. I.e. stopped floods. Could be de-mythicisation of his fight with the mult-headed serpent. But the page still admits: Quote:Yu was supposed to have killed Gong Gong's minister Xiangliu, a nine-headed snake monster. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiangliu Quote:Xiangliu (Chinese: çâºÂ¸Ã¦Å¸Â³; pinyin: XiÃÂngliÃâ) or Xiangyou is a nine-headed snake monster encountered in Chinese mythology. According to the Shan Hai Jing, Xiangliu was a minister of Gong Gong. Later Xiangliu was killed by Yu the Great. An oral version of the Xiangliu myth was collected as late from Sichuan as late as 1983, in which Xiangliu is depicted as a nine-headed dragon, responsible for floods and other harm. About that last line: do they mean like the blood from multi-snake-headed Medusa? Or the much closer case of the blood from snakey Korean giant magical snake of Gimnyeong Sagul/Serpent Cave in Jeju, Korea? OR it's just a common conclusion: Many snakes are poisonous. Next to the weather/water control they're thought to exercise by a myriad ancient communities on the planet, it's not surprising that the blood that results from their severed heads is assumed to be poisonous as well and that this will therefore poison the land into barrenness or worse. Diverse people seemed to often enough come to those very conclusions - independently, without the need to be instructed by PIE-ism. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gong_Gong Quote:Gong Gong At least this one is cosmic (and rather interesting for several points). But, it's not one that PIE is making claims on - PIE invoked Yu vs Xiangliu. So can leave GongGong. Plus I've seen the similar notions in a lot of populations (incl. outside the reach of IE. Some cosmic creature - swimming in the sea of space/space sea creature - knocking the world off kilter and causing environmental disasters is a very common conclusion.) On a less drastic scale, I recall children's bedtime story books having lots of stories from China wherein 'dragons' caused cosmic problems (like swallowing = eclipsing the sun or moon etc and the stars in the night sky*) and thereby causing floods (since the moon controls the tides anyway, the blame for droughts will be directly attributed to such swallowing actions). Don't know why populations aren't allowed to see their own native creatures (e.g. Chinese Longs) forming in the sky and therewith causing environmental disasters, and have to instead bow down to alien alleged IE populations and thank them for general imagination. * You know, the way Rahu and Ketu eclipsed Sun, moon, stars. Common enough view, nothing PIE about this either, BTW: comets/eclipses in Africa have been explained the same way (along with fears common to various populations that, after an eclipses or upon a meteor shower etc, possibly-cataclyptic disasters will ensue, the King will suddenly die/the guard will change. Generally seen as prophesying "great change".) d. China's (Li Ji the) Serpent Slayer [color="#0000FF"]AND a Ghanan example from Africa[/color] (Li Ji's example is famous. Found even in feminist anthologies of fairy tales from around the world. :cough: Serpent Slayer and Other Stories :cough Note the following also showcases an African example of a Snake God colorq.org/articles/article.aspx?d=lore&x=snake Quote:Soninke and Chinese legends of the Slayer of the Snake God - giant snake in the Chinese folktale lived in a cave. Is neutralised by the heroine. This has even more similarities than the Korean narrative had with the Italian folktale "Cave of the golden rose/Gorge of the sainted dragon" [about princess Fantaghiro]. The golden rose turned out to be the gullet of the Dragon that lived in the cave in the gorge. At her birth, the king, sick of having only daughters, wanted to sacrifice his latest daughter to the Dragon at its cave to end the disastrous spell of only-daughters (he needed a son to succeed him as he was at war). He's prevented from sacrificing his infant daughter by the female spirit of the forest. Later the princess grows up, dresses like a man so she can defeat the neighbouring king in a duel as was prophesied (the 2 kingdoms were at war "since time immemorial"). Instead the neighbouring king invites her to visit the Gorge of the dragon, since he suspects she's a girl he'd once seen. The Dragon at the cave is supposed to eat only women and kill all men. The princess dupes the dragon - who can't tell what gender she is as she's entered straight into his throat, and so can't decide whether he should eat her or kill her. She tickles it into sneezing, which causes the cave opening to be closed off therewith - with the dragon stuck in there - whle she herself is safely blown out of the cave alive. (The enemy king is none the wiser about her gender either. The tale doesn't stop with her restrainign the dragon in its den however. Eventually she beats the 'enemy' king in the arranged duel and as punishment for his losing/his kingdom losing and to secure lasting peace between the two kingdoms, her dad marries her off to the defeated king, who's no longer the enemy now, and the two kingdoms are joined.) The similarities of heroine defeating a giant snake/dragon living in a cave that eats women may be mere coincidence [yet it wouldn't ever be considered coincidence if it concerned a "PIE trope" of course]. In any case, there's no need to pretend that this folktale travelled to China, sooner the other way around. (Even the Cinderella fairy tale was originally a Chinese folktale - and is recorded in China a whole 1000 years before the earliest documented Cinderella story in the west or ME. Not to mention the whole "tiniest feet" thing only ever made sense in a Chinese setting.) - [color="#0000FF"]ADDED: Missed this before, but Li Ji lures the Chinese Giant Snake into position using rice. (As opposed to rice-wine that was used to lure the Japanese Orochi to the trap.) Again, the Chinese snake is attracted by the fragrant smell of the rice. Presumably Orochi was attracted by the fragrant smell of rice-wine. It was then that Li-Ji and and her dog then set about attacking the duped man-eating Chinese Serpent.[/color] - Both Chinese and Ghanan cases above show a human hero fighting a giant snake or even magically powerful (God) snake that demanded human sacrifices - maidens in fact, same as in the case of Orochi in Japan. - Bida, the Ghanan Snake God, had multiple heads (as seen in the statement "hydra-like properties of regenerating its severed heads") - The hydra-like self-regenerating heads of the Ghanan snake God is actually common too. "Hydra" is just more familiar to people exposed to 'western' stuff. Doesn't mean it is unique or the sole original. African prosperity - then as now (and in most countries outside the African continent too) - depends largely on water supply, so one can surmise that the demise of Bida the Ghanan Snake God which is seen as directly resulting in the decline of Ghana's prosperity, could be owing to loss of the Snake God's protection in ensuring the adequate amount of water (and related environmental/food) supply. In many African communities throughout the African continent, Snake Gods are (still) worshipped as controllers of flood and drought. Examples of this will follow. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 01-12-2014 Post 5/ Africa part 2 and Native American Iroquois (Previous post ended with Ghana's Snake God with multiple heads who could regrow severed heads - like the hydra! - and which required maidens to be sacrificed to it and which got killed by a human aiming to be the hero of his love-interest/next sacrificial selection. <= "PIE in Ghana". Actually, magical giant snakes [occasionally demanding women/sacrifice] - who may or may not get done in by a hero/God - are a common feature of African religion, as seen in this and final post.) b. Uganda digital.library.upenn.edu/women/baskerville/king/king.html Quote:THE KING OF THE SNAKES And so they lure it into the waterpot to get it to see its gifts (no soma, food or wine this time, but a bed and jewels), lull it to sleep rather than intoxicate it but same principle, close the waterpot, and then Quote:the King commanded the people to make a bonfire, and they burnt Sesota the great snake. - Not quite a "cosmic" struggle here either, but "Sesota King of the snakes" lived near Great Lake Kalungu, ate people living nearby (no demand for human sacrifices in this case, it caught and ate them actively by coming down to their village every day) - But was lured into a trap by "gifts" and subterfuge and then killed - Not killed by hero, but caught by hero. Killed by community collective. - Not described as a giant snake, but a "big snake". However, it is "magical" in the sense that it sings back in a human/intelligible tongue what's more Snake king Sesota near Kalunga (so easy to mistype as Kalinga or even Kalinaga) leads to a brief divergence from Africa to move to Dominica's indigenous Kalinago people (which is probably pronounced very differently again): caribbeanbookblog.wordpress.com/2010/01/31/the-snake-king-of-the-kalinago-dominicas-kalinago-children-celebrate-their-culture/ Quote:A group of Kalinago children from Dominica has done something quite remarkable. They got together and wrote a storybook based on an ancient Kalinago legend which, from all accounts, is receiving rave reviews, even from fans as far away as the UK. - Would a farmer ask for agricultural favours? This is mere guessing of course, haven't read the story. - Still the tradition speaks of a "great snake", - and magical snake what's more, capable of granting wishes, whose original home was the sea. - It says the Snake King of Kalinago had specifically moved in from the sea into a cave to live there. The Korean giant serpent also lived in a cave, so did the giant snake in the Chinese folktale that was slain by Li Ji (one of its intended female sacrifical victims), and the dragon in the Italian folktale about princess Fantaghiro also lived in a cave. Maybe this is something that giant sea serpents (and dragons) are sometimes thought to do: move onto land from the sea and live in caves? c. Namibia orangesenqurak.com/people/people+of+the+basin/beliefs/watersnake.aspx Snake that controls the water in a watering hole. It's spirit beckons a maiden to self-sacrifice, failing that, the waterhole refuses to yield water and the nation suffers. The maiden sacrifices herself at last and it yields plenty of water again. Quote:History and Water Related Culture: Stories: - giant fire-breathing snake - sounds like it may be a dragon. - controls water supply/drought - human sacrifice of maiden - self sacrifice in this case - expected, and they have a tradition to this effect. Else his "curse" in the form of drought ensues. - no "hero" kills the snake - it's not considered 'evil' or to be killed. Rather, people accept that a self-sacrifice is expected to get water and plenty in return. [She might not be dead: there are African traditions that these Snake Gods choose wives. See next post] The giant snake could simply BE the river again (as dragons in E Asia often are). d. Africans - like so many other populations - have River Gods looking like Sea creatures too (dragon! snake! fish! All in one!) Zambezi River God: Controlling flood, drought/protection against famine (compare with how River Gods in Japan, China are dragons or snakes etc thought to control floods, drought etc). Here the River God only started causing floods to prevent a dam built by the alien terrorists, but was benign to his people, as was his wife. safariafrica.co.za/tourist-attractions/nyaminyami.htm Quote:Here is the story to be told about Nyaminyami, the Zambezi River God. He has a body like a snake and a head like a fish and no one knows how big he is, for he never showed himself in full display. But he is very big! The people of Zambezi Valley in Zimbabwe were protected by Nyaminyami, their ancestral spirit (Mudzimu), who fed them from his own meat in times of hunger. 5. A Native American case: Iroquois archive.org/stream/serpentworshipin211hamb/serpentworshipin211hamb_djvu.txt (Christo-colonial book on Snake Worship in Africa, with brief survey of occurrences elsewhere) Quote:It is said, however, that the Hopi hold the most sacred dance of this kind when there are no alien spectators. There is processional dancing with rattlesnakes between the teeth, keeping of snakes in a sacred edifice, and liberation of the reptiles toward the four cardinal points when the rites are concluded. The ceremony is intended to assure a supply of rain. Quote:In the Iroquoian myth the monster is a horned serpent which swallowed the thunder boy, who was eventually rescued by Thunder and his warriors. - Definitely rain/drought control in the first. Implication of weather control in the second. - No snake monster in the first, just serpent worship - Second one does involve a Thunder God - all the way in the Americas - and his warriors, facing a serpent in order to retrieve a swallowed "thunder boy". Thunder and warriors (thunder's echoes?) being the one that does the rescuing seems to imply that rain will ensue. Could be Dragon blocking the moon/something preventing the rains again. Alternatively, the horns may to point to something more tangibly significant. As seen in the final post. But I wonder how the PIEs got to the Americas to instill PIE motifs into indigenous native Americans? Unmasking AIT - Husky - 01-12-2014 Post 6/7 Loose ends Pythons/snake worship, African dragons Python and other snake worship in Africa, where it is widespread, is not "derived" but indigenous (so not from Egypt either) - not that that should be a surprise, much concerning Africa is pretty "original": sacred-texts.com/afr/vao/vao03.htm Quote:Wilfrid D. Hambly, Assistant Curator of African Ethnology at the Field Museum of Natural History, Chicago, the first to produce a strictly scientific work on the question of serpent worship in Africa[5] after a prolonged and careful study, has adduced strong and convincing reasons to the contrary. Hence his conclusion: "Examination of African Python worship in relation to cults and beliefs from other parts of the world provides And Africans have narratives of flying dragons (presumably somewhat resembling flying snakes) too as is implied in: cryptidz.wikia.com/wiki/Namibian_Flying_Snake (I think cryptids is a site for urban legend monsters) Quote:The Namibian flying snake is an odd gargantuan serpent that is possibly derived from African legends of dragons. Snakes and Dragons don't necessarily refer to the same thing for everyone archive.org/stream/serpentworshipin211hamb/serpentworshipin211hamb_djvu.txt (Christo-colonial book on Snake Worship in Africa, with brief survey of occurrences elsewhere) Quote:There is no evidence of anything approaching snake worship in China, unless one is prepared to accept the dragon as a transformed snake.I tend to confuse the two sometimes, and dinos and dragons too. But PIE-ists seem to like conflating snakes and dragons for force-fitting purposes. The Cosmic Egg of Africans mythencyclopedia.com/A-Am/African-Mythology.html Quote:How Things Came To Be. Many myths explain how the world came into existence. The Dogon say that twin pairs of creator spirits or gods called Nummo hatched from a cosmic egg. Other groups also speak of the universe beginning with an egg. People in both southern and northern Africa believe that the world was formed from the body of an enormous snake, sometimes said to span the sky as a rainbow. (But no one was going to claim the cosmic egg is a PIE motif, surely? But ya never know with PIEists. They're so ignorant about the universe beyond their selective and carefully outlined ethnogeography.) Things that could explain it Multi-headed giant snakes could be explained by a mental extrapolation of the occurrence of actual instances of multi-headed snakes (which is a naturally-occuring deformity; have a photo of 2 headed snake in a wild-life book): africagreenmedia.co.za/seven-headed-snake-in-india-real-or-fake-hoax-mythology-and-religion/ Quote:Hydra And giant snakes could just be giant pythons/boas embellished even more by imagination: cryptomundo.com/cryptotourism/giant-snakes-of-japan-2/ The Giant Mystery Snakes Of Japan Maybe Japanese had some bad collective memories from long ago - see below. Or giant snakes capable of swallowing humans and larger animals could be the few freaky last remaining relatives of dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1149743/Picture-100ft-long-snake-sparks-fears-mythical-monster-Borneo.html Quote:Picture of 100ft-long 'snake' sparks fears of mythical monster in Borneo Maybe there had been some freakily large snakes in ancient times when these human traditions concerning extraordinarily-giant snakes first started? Could explain aspects of "the Nabau" etc. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 01-12-2014 Post 7/7 - a possibly "Common Origin of Supersnake Stories from Prehistory" (but it's not PIE chade cryptomundo.com/cryptotourism/giant-snakes-of-japan-2/ The Giant Mystery Snakes Of Japan and "the Nabau" supersnake collective memory of the Indonesians of Borneo could make more sense in light of giantconstrictingsnakes.com/CommonOrigin.html Quote:Evidence for a Common Origin of Supersnake Stories from Prehistory Chinese Dragons certainly look like they have horns and appendages/plumey stuff coming off their heads, if you think about it. Further, the appearance of the more cosmic-level Gong Gong of the Chinese also fits in with how the face looks different from the serpentine body: Quote:[color="#800080"][Gonggong=][/color] Chinese water god or sea monster who is often depicted in Chinese mythology, folktales, and religious stories as having red hair and the tail of a serpent (or dragon). What the above article on supersnakes does indicate is that there are and long have been populations insisting on giant weather-controlling magical serpents everywhere. On this point, the above link insists on divergent evolution from Africa. However, as Africans (such as of the Zambezi River) and E Asians (such as the Japanese etc) insist they can see their Gods [at least when the Gods take on forms visible to them], we need not insist this is merely cultural memory/shared prehistoric mythology. But in any case, weather controlling giant serpents/dragons are not original Oryan invention that was passed on to other people. Other people may have traditions where they live with the situation - Zambezi River God is benign - or accept the price (self-sacrifice) or take action into their own hands (fight the Giant River Snake) or their other Gods may descend and restrain the snake themselves (Susano-o, etc). Often by trickery (food, wine, sake - like the soma). There's no need for PIE Oryan excuses / for insisting PIE's must have given rise to the "trope". If *I* can look up this sort of stuff, any moron can do better. Question is, why didn't PIE-ist claimants of "chaoskamp is originally a PIE trope" look it up? Also, why isn't - say - human sacrifice to the serpent/dragon part of the trope? Or a localised wreckage - not necessarily a national or even cosmic one - threatened by local water creature (such as a local Chinese River dragon or local Japanese serpent)? Both are otherwise so common, after all. Because patterns with other countries could then be formed: Japan and China with Africa and Greece/Troy, say. [E.g. Troy had visitations by that sea monster, sent to Troy's king Laomedon by Poseidon as punishment for not paying fair wages when Poseidon and Apollo worked for him undercover. The sea creature caused people and the fruit/plants of the land to perish. It was oracled the sea monster could only be pacified by sacrificing Laomedon's daughter. Hercules, helped by Athena, slew the beast. Laomedon went back on the promised wages yet again, and Hercules destroyed Troy in revenge. This was an old tradition even in the time of Homer's Iliad, as a protective wall structure that Athena built for Hercules on the beach still remained. <- Some new features in common with Susano-o and Ghanaan etc cases concerning Watery Serpents killed by God or hero.] But no. PIE-ists insist on carefully selecting patterns that favour belief in PIE-ism (and not with evidence either: "potentially" transmitted to Japan from PIE originally is not "evidence" and is asking for belief). Not to mention that PIE-ists totally wear blinkers to anything in the rest of the (i.e. non-"IE") world - owing to obsession/one-track mind - and so come off looking really ignorant to any casual onlooker with any modicum of general knowledge that can see the obvious holes. [E.g. some years back they essentially declared that "Sati is IE", as Bernard Lewis and then Elst did (see latter's Dutch article on Sati from the 1990s or thereabouts and which he still made additions/notes to later, in >=2000). Never mind that - as per Elst's re-definition of Sati - the ancient Chinese for example had such "Sati" too. Which at least Elst should have known already - or so one thought - for being not just an indologist, but a 'sinologist' too, and for having generally more sense than other indologists. I mean, the Chinese case was known since at the very least the 1980s or so, when a children's educational book mentioning the relevant info was printed, and who knows for how many decades or centuries longer than that? Never mind. Elst still comes off looking good in comparison to the "chaoskampf is potentially hence actually originally PIE [and so the Japanese *must* have borrowed]" types. Oh yeah, *sure*, that's how it is us: But - until you prove that transmission with hard evidence, not theorising let alone guessing - know that that's just a belief. Whether Proto-IndoEuropeans existed and consequently had a religion/beliefs/credo or not, PIE-ists certainly do.] The real answer is: E Asian (and African etc) heathens' heathenisms being living religions and their Gods being known to be real to the ethnic natives still loyal to their ancestral religions, it turns out that in *their* cases - if no one else's - this ... alleged "motif/trope" is independently derived, being indeed true for their localities. I.e. no common ur-mythology let alone PIE-ism thesis needs to be submitted in order to explain the "God [or human] vs magical dragon [or serpent]" phenomenon among them. They're not related to IE or via IE. Can leave them alone. As in, PIE-ists should Back. Off. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 01-14-2014 This next set of posts is still related, but on Dragons/Giant Snakes/Giant serpents in general. Looking at common features across the world etc. Post 1/? No. I *don't* do "world" "mythology" and I'm certainly not into "ur-human shared mythology" either - didn't the Germans beat that topic to death in the 19th century, as IIRC even briefly discussed in George Eliot's Middlemarch? I think Dragons et al around the world is just fascinating. The commonalities, the differences, and how there are so few "exact" matches, etc. And by coincidence it also challenges PIE assumptions of originality and directional borrowing in this matter. [There really should be a ban on all encroaching speculation made without proof.] Africa notableinklings.blogspot.com/2012/04/dragons-in-africa-aido-hwedo.html Quote:Aido-Hwedo was so large it could hold up the entire world, but once the multitude of creation was done Nana-Buluku asked Aido-Hwedo to coil up beneath the land to cushion it. Aido-Hwedo cannot stand heat so the Creator made the ocean for the Dragon to live in (like the Midgard Serpent in Teutonic legend). Inhabiting the undersea with the Rainbow Dragon is a troop of red monkeys who forge the iron bars that are Aido-Hwedoââ¬â¢s food. picture: 4.bp.blogspot.com/-Hw5I6kRpTb0/T4aSEyBj9CI/AAAAAAAAAxc/zZvm3QkMIzw/s400/Benin+Aido+Hwedo+httpwww.thisotherworld.co.ukbenin2.html.jpg library.thinkquest.org/03oct/01993/africa.htm Quote:In the tales of Africa, it is believed that the world is held by a serpent called Aido Hwedo. When the world was shapeless, Aido Hwedo carried goddess Mawu in his mouth. Mawu shaped the world and Aido Hwedo was to have made running rivers & streams. During the travels wherever they rested Aido Hwedo excrement piled up to become the sheer of peaks of mountain ranges which later solidified. While this happing Mawu`s work was getting heavy. So she split the world in two, water on one part land and sky on the other. Mawu used her divine wisdom, and told Aido Hwedo to lie down on the water and put his tail in his mouth. On top of his coils, then Mawu placed the Earth. When Earthquakes strike it is believed that Aido Hwedo is moving, and it is also believed that Aido Hwedo is to act as the messenger of god Oklun, and is addressed "Our King". It's not just the coiled up with tail-in-mouth that sounds a lot like the famous giant serpent that Thor fought (Norse/Germanic religion), but also the size being so great it compares - in terms of orders of magnitude - with earth's circumference: blackdrago.com/fame/jormungand.htm Quote:Being the second oldest child of Loki the Trickster and Angboda, he was kidnapped by the gods. Those gods then threw him into the sea near Midgard, and there he slept and brooded and ate. And, he ate so much that he then encompassed the world and finally had to bite on his own tail. [1] At the link, you see that God Thor fought this sea-serpent 3 times. At least no one will pretend that tail-in-mouth giant serpent is a PIE motif (e.g. African, Native American, Norse and Egyptian all have it) blackdrago.com/fame/aidohwedo.htm Quote:Aido Hwedo is a Rainbow Serpent, which is a class of snakes found in many cultures that associate the phenomenon of the rainbow with a semi-supernatural creature. [2] In the traditions of the culture of Dahomey, Aido Hwedo was the first creature to be created, and he carried the supreme god, Mawu, across the earth on his back so that the deity could fill the world. [3] In this way, Aido Hwedo aided the creation of the universe and the earth. [1] As they traveled, the serpent's tracks carved the chasms and rivers of the Earth, [3] and wherever he rested for the night, he deposited piles of excrement so vast that they are known today as the mountains. [1] blackdrago.com/types/ouroboros.htm Quote:In the West, the Ouroboros originated in Egypt [1] around 1600 B.C. (since when did Egypt become "west" before Greek presence there?), [3] but many other cultures have this same symbol that predates its Egyptian counterpart. [2] The name Ouroboros is Greek, meaning "devouring its tail." [3] In the broadest sense, the Ouroboros represents the continuity of life, [5] and it symbolizes the primeval, anarchic dynamism preceding creation of the cosmos and emergence of order. [11] Well, that's one thing people can't pretend is PIE and as being supposedly graciously "donated" to "Afro-Asiatic" etc. Nor does even donation follow: seems very old in various parts of the world, including places like the Americas. A native American example will come in a later post. (Again: how did PIE get there long before the Vikingen or even the alleged/speculative discovery of the New World by European Picts, then?) |