Unmasking AIT - Printable Version +- Forums (http://india-forum.com) +-- Forum: Indian History & Culture (http://india-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=3) +--- Forum: Indian History (http://india-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=10) +--- Thread: Unmasking AIT (/showthread.php?tid=572) |
Unmasking AIT - ramana - 07-08-2015 Husky, Remember long ago you co-wrote and article on how German angst about themselves drove them to support AIT? Can you post a link to it? Need to make some people aware of it. Thanks, ramana Unmasking AIT - Husky - 07-09-2015 Um, sounds like you have got me confused with someone else? The description sounds unfamiliar. I've PM-ed you a link to two saved articles that perhaps you're actually referring to (?) In any case, it's the ones you usually ask IF members for. And this time, do what I did and save a copy on your hard drive so that you always have a backup. And if I'm made a co-author, then so are you. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 02-06-2016 Forgot to put this up when I saw it. Related to point 1 of post 459 and to post 460. swarajyamag.com/ideas/was-the-indian-sub-continent-the-original-genetic-homeland-of-the-europeans/ Quote:Was The Indian Sub-Continent The Original Genetic Homeland Of The Europeans? Rest at link. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 03-06-2016 bR^ihadAraNyaka upaniShad i.e. part of shruti. Admitted to be a core/ancient upaniShad (certainly when IE-ists want to use this text to encroach on something.) At the end of this upaniShad, there are some mantras with tantra instructions for special use/purposes.* Among them those, for the begetting of children. (Presumably rites for use by brahmanas, since it speaks of children being versed in the Veda.) * I'm not sure if any was ever used, since some seem really special purpose and unlikely to ever need to be used and for others it seems unlikely anyone would care to resort to them, but in any case: a set of rites for specific ends are collected together at the end of the UpaniShad. About the above-mentioned specific rites in this text for having children: Quote:He who wishes, 'May a fair-complexioned [shuklaH] son be born to me, who will be versed in one Veda and attain full longevity', should have rice cooked in.... In case it's not apparent why the above is brought up in this thread: What's interesting is the wished for offspring's skintone associated with knowledge of the Veda. Essentially the association made (where skintone is mentioned) is darker babies <-> know more Vedas. The reason it's worth mentioning at all is that this is something white supremacists/oryanists conveniently don't mention (or perhaps, don't want to know) when they pretend to the world that the ancient Vedic Hindus were supposedly Euro-looking. Or that ancient Hindus necessarily preferred fairer skintones or associated it with superiority in any way.** In fact, to play it the way IE-ists would have chosen to do had it been the inverse: it can be argued that where skintone is specified in these rites, the darkest skintone is considered superior as it's associated with knowledge of more Vedas. Clearly the skintone range enumerated 1. seems to be limited to a human range, and hence can't be dismissed as 'merely symbolic' (<- stating this pre-emptively) and 2. is that seen among ethnic Hindus, not among Europeans aka the 'oryan' type (as IE-ists like to project about the Kurgan kultur etc). * The "red eyes" may seem fanciful but shyamaH + red eyes seems a commonly mentioned combination and the "red eyes" may be considered auspicious. (Perhaps -here- it refers merely to the pink of the eye-lid portions that are visible. These may stand out more against darker skintones?) In any case, when oryanists fasten upon any mention of anything fair or red or golden-coloured in the the Vedic religio or in Taoism - let alone where the latter concerns the hair (or can be interpreted as yellow/red colour hair) - they never insist it is a proper red or yellow let alone symbolic, though in their examples it concerns the Gods whose colours are not limited to the human skin and hair tone range at all (and where the coloured hair is frequently described along with their body as being the same colour: e.g. the deity being red all over, golden all over, blue-black all over, etc. Not to mention the same deity being different colours in different manifestations. <-Some of the things the oryanists/alien demons conveniently choose to overlook to make their oryan argumentation). Whereas the above example clearly concerns skintones of human babies, are all in the Hindoo human range (the shuklaH colour is limited to a fair-complexioned ethnic Hindu baby, as are the mid-range browns and the shyAmaH dark-complexion). That range is a ethnic Hindoo skintone range. Further, the final 2 rites for having babies - for having a girl and a boy respectively, both learned and accomplished in their own way - do not specify skintone at all, which seems to either imply that in the category of "most-learned in the Veda and accomplished" for the boy-child and in the category of "most-learned and accomplished" for the girl-child, the baby is not associated with any particular skin-colour (and can turn out to be anything at random maybe, like a pleasant surprise). One can argue that this last implies that Hindu parents didn't ever choose to 'control' the skintone of their kids (<- stating this pre-emptively, in case anti-Hindus will try to argue so next). ** And as these rites seem to concern offspring of brahmanas (commonly, but perhaps not necessarily exclusively/specifically) it becomes more telling. Because it is interesting to note here that the alien demons - who like to project brahmanas, and most especially the brahmanas of Vaidika texts/Vedic era, as the allegedly "most Euro-looking" (most purely Oryan etc) and as being those who would most be into being "white" and "preserving whiteness" (=the hangup of white supremacists/IE-ists aka oryanists, not of Hindus) - again: it is interesting to note here that the following seems to give the lie to the alien demons' faces. And note that when, as per the above, the brahmanas from the Vaidika era even are exonerated from white supremacism, then that means every other Hindu is exonerated too. I didn't make these rules, but I'm glad how they work out for my argument now. Quick someone/any alien demon IE-ist: make it so that the bRihadAraNyakopaniShad was only a "late Vedic, deteriorated text, from after such a time as miscegenation had set in". Unmasking AIT - Husky - 03-12-2016 Interesting reads found directly or indirectly via the links of one Nirjhar<something>: * jolr.ru/files/(112)jlr2013-9(145-154).pdf * new-indology.blogspot.com/2013/02/indo-iranians-new-perspectives.html * varnam.nationalinterest.in/2009/09/a-4000-year-old-lepers-tale/ Elst had claimed that IE-ism has "long since" (since around after WWII) ceased to do with race or let's just call it phenotype. But: Comment at: new-indology.blogspot.com/2013/02/indo-iranians-new-perspectives.html Quote:Giacomo Benedetti (And make no mistake, many IE-ists - professional and hobbyist - are working to argue this too) Excrpts from the article. First the intro, as it's also worth C&P: new-indology.blogspot.com/2013/02/indo-iranians-new-perspectives.html Quote:Saturday, 2 February 2013 Well, western IE-ism being Eurocentrism* is barely a secret: despite laughable attempts, they really can't cover it up and sometimes I'm thinking they're not even trying to anymore, so sure are they of their oryanism=white supremacism. (*And the wannabe-Euro or at least a supremacist motivation behind all other IE-ists isn't a secret either, but apparent.) But then, none of them are actually heathens. There is no heathen IE-ist, by definition. An interesting segment: new-indology.blogspot.com/2013/02/indo-iranians-new-perspectives.html Quote:The identification of these regions as India is probably due to political reasons, because they were part of an Indian kingdom, so that the Parthians used to call Arachosia 'White India' (see here). But it is also possible that the border between Indians and Iranians was not so clear, and the people of that region, that is, Pashtuns/Pathans and Balochis, were regarded as practically Indians. And it is true that their languages are Iranian (Balochi is even regarded as a Northwestern Iranian language, probably for a recent migration or Parthian influence), but genetically they are quite close to their Pakistani and Indian neighbours. According to Dienekes' table with 12 components of autosomal DNA, Balochis have 33.8% of South Asian component, Pathans 39.1%, and Tajiks (of Tajikistan?) 17.4%. And the study by Haber et al. about Afghanistan genetics reveals: Full article - much longer with more details - at link. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 03-12-2016 Cont. The reason that the paper jolr.ru/files/(112)jlr2013-9(145-154).pdf (by Mallory) is meaningful, is that in 2013* none less than Mallory admitted his doubts about certain persistent issues on the .... 'PIE question' and that all the major PIE/urheimat theories could not answer them all successfully and satisfyingly. * Note that this is before David Anthony's Massive Steppe Migration paper (properly credited as Haak et al 2015, but all admit that Anthony has been leading the Kurgan thesis charge and had salvaged it), that declared to have found the point of diffusion of IE languages AND GENES into Europe - this last is in case Elst tries to pretend again that IE-ists are not talking about phenotype/race/racism: oh, yes they are. But there is something else to Mallory's paper that is relevant to Hindoos: jolr.ru/files/(112)jlr2013-9(145-154).pdf (And remember, this is Mallory, the proponent of white supremacism, who works with the more overt white supremacist oryanist Victor Mair Quote:The speakers at this symposium can generally be seen to support one of the following three ââ¬Ësolutionsââ¬â¢ to the Indo-European homeland problem: Specifically, - if IVC is shown to be Vedic or demonstrates genes that Europe has pre-emptively claimed for itself as Eurogenes, then IVC will be dubbed IE. - if IVC finds traces of non-Eurogenes in individuals, then it's admixture (or "miscegenation" as the oryanists and other white supremacists called this openly not that long back) - if IVC does not show traces of Sintashta-specific DNA, then the Oryans hadn't invaded yet/were poised to invade/lived elsewhere. [Since as per AIT only R1a is the Oryan haplogroup (for Indian-Afghan-Persian space). But Europeans can have as many haplogroups as Europeans belong to and no one will question their European-ness. Never mind that in a native-ness argument, Y can conceivably belong to other native haplogroups and still be natively Vedic and perhaps only exported a clan dominated by R1a (specifically at least the 'Asian-specific' version of R1a1a) to -say- Sintashta for mining/metallurgy purposes. (Or maybe the Indics in Afghanistan, or Iranians in Afghanistan/Persian space to Tajikistan or wherever, exported a clan dominated by at least the Asian-specific R1a(1a) to Sintashta. Or exported - or even kicked out - the Iranian (ancestors of) Scythians/and ancestors of the Sarmatians.)] So whatever the outcome, it's always going to be "heads IE-ism wins, tails Hindoos lose". Yet all 3 scenarios can equally be explained in the opposite direction. Moreover, there's no guarantee that bronze age aDNA (ancient DNA) from IVC burials would reveal anything necessary Vedic or even otherwise indigenous: apparently the Harappans cremated as a rule, as seen in that 3rd link - varnam.nationalinterest.in/2009/09/a-4000-year-old-lepers-tale/ Quote:Harappan skeletons were both cremated ââ¬â there is evidence at Sanauli at least ââ¬â and buried, but true burials are very few compared to expected numbers. Many archaeologists believe that cremation must have been widely practised by Harappans. Also, at Dholavira and other sites, dozens of graves turned out to be without any bones which implies symbolic burials. ADDED: To return to Mallory. A relevant extract, from near the end of the PDF: jolr.ru/files/%28112%29jlr2013-9%28145-154%29.pdf Quote:Near Eastern and Pontic-Caspian models (including Renfrewââ¬â¢s Plan B ) I think Mallory's 2013 paper above - though not quite signs of his disillusionment - is part of the reason behind the Haak 2015 taking centre stage and which has actually been presented as rendering earlier genetics data and conclusions obsolete. (Because the IE matter is very much about whiteness, the Steppe Migration and following genetics papers are all there to explain away the very dark-skinned yet otherwise genomically Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer - actually called SHG - and all kinds of other "outliers".) People should not underestimate the importance of David Anthony and his Haak et al 2015 paper - and his 2007 book is now in even greater favour, though it was already a popular favourite among IE-ists including hobbyists - in blowing full life into the Kurgan thesis, the most oryanist of all oryan theories, complete with all the hallmarks of the original oryanist (as in nazi-style oryanist) B-fantasy. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 03-13-2016 Only the links, the parts that are in quoteblocks, and highlighted text in this post are important. David Anthony is a hoot. He uses Wendy Doniger's translations for the Rig Veda. Implication: Anthony doesn't know Sanskrit. Yet he desperately depends on the Veda though. Since, as far as I understand, a lot of "IE" innovations in the C-Asian steppes are specifically associated with "Indo-Iranians". And it can't be claimed for white supremacism unless the "Indo-Iranians" are claimed. Anyway. This post was brought on by something I remembered seeing in Elst's writing, who quotes Lal who denied Possehl: indiafacts.org/excavations-show-the-cultural-continuity-of-the-vedic-harappans/ Quote:Similarly, Lal opposes a claim made by the late Gregory Possehl that a horse find in Bactria indicates a Vedic horse sacrifice, performed by Aryans on their way to India. He points out that the horse was beheaded and thus does not satisfy the Vedic prescriptions for a horse sacrifice. A variant also at: hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=5649 Quote:Similarly, Lal opposes the late Gregory Possehlââ¬â¢s claim that a horse find in Bactria indicates a Vedic horse sacrifice, performed by Aryans on their way to India. He points out that the horse was beheaded and does not satisfy the Vedic prescriptions for a horse sacrifice. But I would point out there is no need to refute Possehl. Since the Rig Veda was composed in the 3rd millennium (and not in 1200 bce as Possehl assumed), earlier than this Bactrian horse, as a sacrificial Vedic offering it would only confirm an India-to-Bactria migration, not the other way around. Ah, but even if Lal or Hindoos denied that a headless horse burial in the adjoining Afghan lands was a Vedic horse sacrifice, IE-ists will just argue that it was a Vedic/PIE burial. As indeed they do below, though not with a headless horse, but rather concerning an instance of a headless man with a horse's head found in the Steppe from the bronze age: silk-road.com/artl/horsemyth.shtml Let Them Eat Horses by Dr. David Anthony (Only a "Dr"? I'm disappointed. Even Doniger made "professor".) (Original print at NEWSLETTER - Institute For Ancient Equestrian Studies, No. 4/Summer 1997 Anthony is repeatedly referenced as THE authority for the claim that an earlier dig revealed that a Sintashta or post-Sintashta burial of a horse's head with the body of a man shows a Vedic burial by "Indo-Iranians" in that "(post)-Sintashta IE culture". He also specifically claims that the Rig Veda is "Indo-Iranian" using the burial. I suppose Witzel types may have written on the subject too (since the dig itself was old), but Anthony's 2007 pop-IE book is credited by all the amateur IE-fandom on wackypedia for enlightening the Euro masses about their claims on Vedic religio and capturing their imagination/introducing them to the IE paradigm. Dr Anthony refers to his better, Prof Wendy Doniger, for translations from Skt: silk-road.com/artl/horsemyth.shtml Quote:Here are selected verses describing the Vedic horse sacrifices, translated from the Sanskrit by Prof. Wendy Doniger: And then at the end: Quote:FURTHER READ1NGS ON TH1S SUBJECT Before laughing hysterically about one "expert" citing another fake "expert", it is important to realise that Anthony is THE guy who resurrected the Kurgan thesis and pushed for it to be #1. Not Mallory, not Kuzmina, not anybody else. They did their best, but got nowhere. Anthony even inspired the Eurocentrist masses with his pop-IE book. But here is Anthony, who has to resort to Doniger to understand the Veda. Thanks to Doniger's translations - only worth something to alien demons - Anthony concludes: Quote:One of the most intriguing myths in the Rig Veda concerns a man, Dadhyanc Atharvan, who learned from Tvastr, the maker god, the secret of making mead, an intoxicating honey drink. The Asvins, or the Divine Twins who are themselves occasionally represented poetically as a pair of young horses, insisted that Dadhyanc tell them the secret of the mead. He refused. They cut off his head and replaced it with the head of a horse, through which he became an oracle and told them the secret they desired. In other hymns in the Rig Veda horse heads flowed magically with honey. "Antecedent" assumes Veda's late dating and AIT. Note the grand storytelling based on the find. Just like the headless Bactrian horse burial - declared Vedic sacrifice - was assumed to be "proof" of the stage of "Indo-Iranians" before entering India, the instance in the steppe Potapovka of a horse head buried with a headless human is declared as the steppe origin of the "Indo-Iranians" before oryan-invading C/S Asia. 1. Why do they pretend every find in any region or time must be the first of its kind? (Be it Bactria or Potapovka in this example, but the same process is attempted with many of their invasionist arguments) And hence that older finds elsewhere says something about PIE migration direction? 2. What if people simply haven't dug everywhere yet where the alleged "Indo-Iranians"* went - assuming all burials were well-preserved - to track the oldest of mutilated horse burial? 3. What if the practice was ancient, thousands of years older? Or what if the practice was rare? Etc. What if the steppe practice had nothing to do with the Veda? It could be independent, right? I mean, Bronze Age middle-Easterners (in Syria, "Israel-Palestine", Iraq etc) "throughout the entire 3rd and 2nd millennia BCE" were [url="http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1179/175638010X12797246583852?journalCode=ylev20"]burying[/url] donkeys ritually - and at times with humans too. And the artificial orientation of the animal's head or other parts to face the East or another specific direction is remarked upon by archaeologists too, just as the orientation is often remarked upon in the cases of so-called IE burials of man and/or horse etc. The main difference is that the ME case concerns donkeys. So, unless IE-ists choose to use some hittite or mittani or Persian connection to Syria and Egypt and Babylon to declare IE influence (backwards in time) - or claim IE influence/origins of Mesopotamia (also backwards in time) - IE-ists will no doubt dismiss the middle-eastern case with "No Horse means nothing to do with IE-ism. We're talking ritual burying of the true horse exclusively, not fake donkeys. IE-ism is unique because whiteness is unique/it's only cool when we did it." IE-tropism.) The links, explicitly listed: - tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1179/175638010X12797246583852?journalCode=ylev20 also at: researchgate.net/publication/233541056_Assessing_Sacred_Asses_Bronze_Age_Donkey_Burials_in_the_Near_East - anthropology.uw.edu.pl/06/bne-06-02.pdf Around p.37. p.37 further has a photo Note: As explained above, the ancient middle-easterners ritually sacrificed donkeys in instances like when making treaties. [* Contrary to Elst's claims, IE-ists are not and never were talking about some language, they're always talking about a population: specifically about Europeans/"white" people.] 4. Also, Anthony is famous for (deliberately?) misrepresenting dates of later burials - on top of older burials - as having the older date. As seen in the example Priyadarshi pointed out. Specifically involving just the kind of those covered by the fraud above: Said Anthony: silk-road.com/artl/horsemyth.shtml Quote: At Dereivka on the Dnieper River in Ukraine, the now-famous (now infamous, you mean) horse with bit wear on its premolar teeth was part of a head-and-hoof deposit at the edge of a settlement dated about 42003700 B.C. It was found with the remains of two dogs, which probably were part of the same ritual offering. Priyadarshi summarised the blunder: aryaninvasionmyth.wordpress.com/2012/10/01/3/ Quote:The much widely publicized story of the horse domestication at Dereivka (horse-and-dog burial, Ukraine) at 4200-3700 BCE, which is generally believed even today, proved wrong in 2000. The dates claimed were of the soil layer, not of the skull. The Dereivka horse was never accepted as domestic horse by a large number of scholars (like Levine, Hausler etc). To silence the opposition, the skull bone was directly radiocarbon dated and found to be from 3000 BCE (Anthony 1997). However it became soon obvious that this report was wrong as a bone not actually belonging to the horse had been tested by mistake. Still later, by actual radiocarbon dating of the horse skull, it came out that the horse-burial had been made by a much later settlement, settled over the same place (Scythian era 800-200 BCE), digging deep into the lower layers. David Anthony, author of the Dereivka story was left with no choice. He quickly retracted his earlier claim (Anthony:2000, 2009:215). I have no reason to believe the oryanist conclusions/storytelling about the archaeological dig in Potapovka as pointing to being the "antecedent for the Vedic myth". INSERT: They did it again! Turns out it was YET ANOTHER big lie - tamilandvedas.com/2014/08/27/horse-headed-seer-rig-veda-mystery-no-1/ Quote:One of the mysteries of Rig Veda that puzzled the westerners is the Story of Dadhyanc Atharvan, a Rishi with a horse head. Until the year 2000, they wrote that they have discovered his grave in Potapovka near Samara in Russia. By 2010 they have changed their view! Now let's hear that story again that the serial-forger "Dr" David Anthony told - and which most every amateur IE-ist bragging online about their genetics being R1a (or the now-fail R1b) repeated all over the web. The story about how the Potapovka burial somehow should have been the antecedent of the Rig Veda story about Dadhya~nc. The one even hypothesising that Dadhyanc (a Vedic Rishi) was probably buried in Potapovka. (Which claim to uniqueness seems to be an IE-ist admission that no more such "burials" were to be expected even in the steppes: there being only one Rishi Dadhyanc who got his head replaced with horse's by the Ashwinau.) What happened to all their storytelling? More importantly: why are white supremacist oryanists still repeating the lie of Anthony's forgeries all over the web? I've counted 2 now, who knows how many more of his forgeries have been outed, and how many more he got away with? These people are born liars. If they were an honourable people, they'd have killed themselves already by now. But they're dishonourable as a function of their very nature. Irredeemable. They merely look human, but are possessed by (that spin-off of) the christoclass virus: white-supremacism/oryanism. So of course they lie for their ideology. It's a feature of the christoclass virus. INSERT 2: Forgot to add, Anthony's storytelling convinced even himself. In his free time, he's clearly trying to reconstruct oryanism (probably speaks the constantly-reconstructed PIE with his gang too), and this typically-oryanist hobby of attempting to channel his alleged "IE ancestors" spills over into his article. He starts the article encouraging his gang to eat horses again as part of channelling "their" "PIE" ancestors ('cause their "oryan ancestors" were to have done so, or so Doniger's translations of the Rig Veda tell him): silk-road.com/artl/horsemyth.shtml Quote:Let Them Eat Horses Like the alien demon dabblers calling themselves "Vedicists"/"brahmins"/"VediKKK ReKKKon" have been busy acquiring animals to sacrifice in their re-enactment of "their" Vedic texts and "their" Vedic ancestors, Anthony no doubt is into (sacrificing? and) eating horses at home. "Because his super-oryan ancestors did it." (Of course reconstructionism to channel visions of B-fantasy "warriors" is no longer limited to aliens: came across Indian Vedic Reconstructionists (there's no other term for them) arguing in the same way on a nationalist site. Same B-fantasy movie.) Anyway, the people who wrote YSEE.gr's FAQ argue like actual heathens (and their ancestors - whom they honour and whose ways they honour - sacrificed by the hecatombs): ysee.gr/index-eng.php?type=english&f=faq#36 Then again these people are not channeling IE-ism, but are heathens following their heathenism, and so they have no need to be part of some constructed B-fantasy, but aim to be part of known heathen reality. Only the links, the parts that are in quoteblocks, and highlighted text in this post are important. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 03-13-2016 Cont. Still on the following by Anthony and it turning out as an archaeological mistake/fraud (first 2 quoteblocks contain repeats from the previous post): silk-road.com/artl/horsemyth.shtml Quote:Let Them Eat Horses tamilandvedas.com/2014/08/27/horse-headed-seer-rig-veda-mystery-no-1/ Quote:One of the mysteries of Rig Veda that puzzled the westerners is the Story of Dadhyanc Atharvan, a Rishi with a horse head. Until the year 2000, they wrote that they have discovered his grave in Potapovka near Samara in Russia. By 2010 they have changed their view! Tried to look for more supporting data on how it was bad archaeology. Found some additional material discussing this, see further below. Meanwhile most of the web including wikipedia still repeats the forged find - I mean archaeological mistake - of the Potapovka burial as "evidence" for the Indo-Aryan-ness or Indo-Iranian-ness or whatever of the steppe site: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potapovka_culture Quote:One burial has the corpse's head replaced with that of a horse, Anyway, here follow the few further references a simple web search threw up on the convenient IE-ist archaeological forgery (or maybe one should put it down to zeal for IE-ism leading to "innocent mistakes")? 1. Found at google books: Quote:The Roots of Hinduism: The Early Aryans and the Indus Civilization 2. manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2015/08/23/a-brief-note-on-animal-heads-celtic-human-sacrifice-and-indo-european-tradition/ Quote:Interestingly, Russian archaeologists claimed that such a chimeric form, a man with a horseââ¬â¢s head, was found in a kurgan of the Potapovka culture [A sister of the more famous Sintashta culture] near the Samara Bend on the Volga steppes ââ¬â a place close the original homeland of the Aryans. However, subsequent dating showed that the human and horse skeletons belong to different ages and the superimposition of two separate burials human and horse at the same site separated by several hundreds of years had accidentally created the impression of a chimera. OT: Searching the above web page for more occurrences of "chimera" (which seems to be used in a more recent/general sense here) - Quote:Archaeological chimeras have nevertheless re-emerged recently. An Iron Age site from Dorset, UK has provided extensive evidence for chimeric creations by Britonic Celts. These include chimeras between horses and cows as well as burial of multiple heads of sacrificed animals. It is uncertain if these were purely Celtic innovations or have earlier Indo-European precedents. The human sacrifice at the site seems to have placed the human remains on various animals remains with a correspondence of the parts. Meanwhile, as seen in Parpola just above, at least imagery of what sound like "chimera" has been found in IVC - though no burials as yet (or the Indian climate is not able to preserve them?). Repeating the relevant extract from Parpola above again: Quote:Moreover, some molded tablets from Harappa show anthropomorphic deities with animal heads: a dancer resembling later Shiva NaTarAja has the head of the water buffalo (CISI 1:207 H-175) and a long-armed deity within a fig tree has a ram's head (Fig.21.16a) like the later god NaigameSha (chapter 21).[For versions of IVC "chimera" iconography that doesn't involve humanoid body parts, here's a famous IVC seal with individual-animal parts identified: harappa.com/content/harappan-chimaeras-%E2%80%98symbolic-hypertexts%E2%80%99-some-thoughts-plato-chimaera-and-indus-civilization PDF: "Harappan Chimaeras as ââ¬ËSymbolic Hypertextsââ¬â¢. Some Thoughts on Plato, Chimaera and the Indus Civilization"] And while Parpola, excerpted just above, does not make the IVC "chimera" iconography connection to Vedic texts directly for the instances he points out, but speaks of "later" deities, wackypedia unwittingly supplies the link to the Vedam for at least one instance he noted: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naigamesha Quote:In Hinduism, Naigamesha is associated with Kartikeya, the god of war. Naigamesha is an epithet and a form of Kartikeya, where he is generally depicted goat-headed. In other instances, Naigamesha is described as the son or brother of the war god. Hindu texts like the Brahmanas, the Grihya sutras and medicinal texts mention a similar deity with a ram head.[1] As a fearsome follower of Kartikeya, Naigamesha was feared and worshipped to ward off evil. later, he evolved into the patron of childbirth.[3] Note that at least the Brahmanas portion of the vedam count as the Veda, being often (usually) considered as part of the karma kandam. Also alluded to in the following: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aranyaka Quote:The Vedas have been divided into four styles of texts ââ¬â the Samhitas (mantras and benedictions), the Aranyakas (text on rituals, ceremonies, sacrifices and symbolic-sacrifices), the Brahmanas (commentaries on rituals, ceremonies and sacrifices), and the Upanishads (text discussing meditation, philosophy and spiritual knowledge).[4][5][6] The Samhitas are sometimes identified as karma-kanda (à ¤â¢Ã ¤°à ¥Âà ¤® à ¤âà ¤£à ¥Âà ¤¡, action/ritual-related section), while the Upanishads are identified as jnana-kanda (à ¤Åà ¥Âà ¤žà ¤¾à ¤¨ à ¤âà ¤£à ¥Âà ¤¡, knowledge/spirituality-related section).[7][8] The Aranyakas and Brahmanas are variously classified, sometimes as the ceremonial karma-kanda, other times (or parts of them) as the jnana-kanda. May as well repeat the final remaining important points of the previous post: 1. Esteemed IE-ist David Anthony (champion of the Kurgan thesis, part of the genetics paper Haak et al 2015, etc), who draws so many IE-ist conclusions about the Rig Veda, has to rely on Wendy Doniger for translations from the Vedam. See silk-road.com/artl/horsemyth.shtml That's how expert he is. But inspired by his oryanist obsession with his alleged oryan ancestors, he will recommend (to fellow IE-ists really) that horsemeat should be brought back on the menu and claims it's tasty. 2. IE-ist claims to uniqueness concerning (presumably ritual) horse burials: Bronze Age middle-Easterners (in Syria, "Israel-Palestine", Iraq etc) "throughout the entire 3rd and 2nd millennia BCE" were [url="http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1179/175638010X12797246583852?journalCode=ylev20"]burying[/url] donkeys ritually - and at times with humans too. And the artificial orientation of the animal's head or other parts to face the East or another specific direction is remarked upon by archaeologists too, just as the orientation is often remarked upon in the cases so-called IE burials of man and/or horse etc. The main difference is that the ME case concerns donkeys. So, unless IE-ists choose to use some hittite or mittani or Persian connection to Syria and Egypt and Babylon to declare IE influence (backwards in time) - or claim IE influence/origins of Mesopotamia (also backwards in time) - IE-ists will no doubt dismiss the middle-eastern case as having no relation to IE rites because a donkey is not a true horse. The links, explicitly listed: - tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1179/175638010X12797246583852?journalCode=ylev20 also at: researchgate.net/publication/233541056_Assessing_Sacred_Asses_Bronze_Age_Donkey_Burials_in_the_Near_East - anthropology.uw.edu.pl/06/bne-06-02.pdf Around p.37. p.37 further has a photo Note: As explained in the above link, the ancient middle-easterners ritually sacrificed donkeys in instances like when making treaties. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 03-13-2016 Cont. 2 More on "Chimera" in IVC: About this insertion that I'd made into the previous post: Quote:[For versions of IVC "chimera" iconography that doesn't involve humanoid body parts, here's a famous IVC seal with individual-animal parts identified: harappa.com/content/harappan-chimaeras-%E2%80%98symbolic-hypertexts%E2%80%99-some-thoughts-plato-chimaera-and-indus-civilization The "Plato" in the title intrigued me. I found a page in the PDF mentioning "Greek myth" in a subtitle, which section ends up being interesting: harappa.com/sites/default/files/201311/Frenez%20Vidale%202012%20-%20Harappan%20Chimaeras.pdf p.5 Quote:Harappan Chimaeras as ââ¬ËSymbolic Hypertextsââ¬â¢. Some Thoughts on Plato, Chimaera and the Indus Civilization No comment is necessary I suppose. Instead, will mention that: 1. the Taoist Long ("dragon") of the Chinese is also a 'chimera' in the general sense that word is used in English today. BTW, the Taoist Long is NOT imaginary: Longs are Daoist Deities and other Special Beings. 2. Yazhis of Hindu temples and sacred imagery are 'chimera' in this sense too. In several respects, a common kind show some consistency: lion for much of face and body, but snake-like or elephant trunk for a nose/tongue/entire snout (sometimes a triple snakes or elephant trunk form the tongues). qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3c1e48a4791f0dc5190f229afeb3400d?convert_to_webp=true qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ce38fb84a77ea660941caf36d344659d?convert_to_webp=true Mouth like a trunk here: media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/05/b0/83/58/aayiram-kaal-mandapam.jpg Fished out a relative's book on Yazhi illustrations made by one of the famous Hindoo temple/moorti shilpis. Some other yazhi forms: - There are also yazhis forms involving sea-like creatures, like the fantastical form of a makara as face but with elephant trunk with decorative peacock/swan tail and still bird legs. - Lion/tiger with peacock or "decorative" swan tail, sitting on a lion-headed snake. There's also an illustration in the book that the shilpi made of an elephant swallowing a horse's head. But while the trunk and ear of the elephant is visible, the elephant head looks like a reversed 2 horn *cow* face (i.e. a cow head to a horse body facing in the direction of the now headless elephant). It's like some Escher image at the point where the cow head meets horse head. Sort of like this next albeit-2-animal-version of an elephant and cow in the temple image at flickr.com/photos/me_ram/5514038980 Hindus have yazhi-like Gods too. E.g. Sarabeshwara (Shiva), Pratyangira Amman, and of course Kamadhenu is often depicted with the head of (human-like) Devi, body of Cow and wings. What's remarkable is that Hindoo shilpis are so good at studying native Hindoo animals and drawing them for practice, before they then make traditional "ornamental" vaahana versions for the Gods or else depict yazhis as a combination of ornamental versions of various animals. Hindoo artists so talented. :love: Although yazhis are ubiquitous in Tamizh southern Hindoo temples and may be so in other Hindoo temples, yazhis are also visible in Nepalese Hindu tantra "tangka"* paintings for instance, and this had already made me suspect that yazhis may have once been a common feature to all Hindoos, especially since the yazhi appears to trace to the Veda and IVC too. [I'm not sure one is allowed to say it: but yazhis seem to me to show Hindoos' continuity in their Hindoo sacred imagery from Vedic and IVC times.] (*IIRC the Buddhists in Tibet ended up using what look like Taoist Longs for their Bauddhified copy of Hindu Tantra Tangka imagery [involving Bauddhified versions of Hindu Gods], because of ancient Chinese Taoist-derived influences in Tibet both from Taoism proper and from Chinese Bauddhified Taoist motifs.) 3. Persians had imagery of - lion with wings, - some bearded priest-like male humanoid head with the body of a lion and large wings. Persians also had an image depicting a goat being bitten by a lion. This last isn't a chimera, consisting of two whole distinct animals, though joined, but it seems to be common imagery. (Since no body part of either animal is actually missing, it doesn't remind me of the one headed cow-horse or cow-elephant in Hindoo sculptures seen in TN.) 4. Subhash Kak in his recent article about Otzi the iceman, mentioned the Gundestrup cauldron as featuring Gajalakshmi: two "elephants" on the side of a human-like head. (Presumably native-science.net/Images/Gundestrup%20Images07.Plate%20E.jpg ) * Interesting is that they should have - what seem to me - lion-like animals, besides "elephant" like ones (though the trunk may be explained as that of an ant-eater. But the Gundestrup creature's "trunk" is not stable enough to be that of the European anteater. But maybe it's just a fantastical creature? Fancy hitting upon a trunk through sheer imagination.) * I suppose, because the next is a "profile" view, they may explain that it has two horns and is not like an IVC "unicorn": upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/ChaudronDeGundestrup5.jpg * The lion-like creatures in this next image (complete with what look like manes, but could be dismissed as dragon-headed) look very traditional yazhi-like qua pose: landschaftsmuseum.de/Bilder/Gundestrup_Platte2-2.jpg Of course we know that the lion is featured heavily on banners and everything in much of Europe, especially regions that never had lions. * And I factually confuse the IVC Pashupati seal with the Pashupati-like (with antlers) Gundestrup character. 5. In googling for Gundestrup images, found this: historum.com/asian-history/70150-aryan-invasion-other-matters-13.html (Apparently Indians had been bringing the matter up.) The above link indicates what to google for concerning Persian imagery: "Achaemenid relief". * "Griffin Lion" of Persians: c8.alamy.com/comp/D95PPA/ancient-persia-achaemenid-period-530-330-bc-griffin-lion-relief-in-D95PPA.jpg * Winged bull: s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/cf/c2/5c/cfc25c279499a59989a2ecde9c6efb1b.jpg * Winged Iranian feline with goat-like head (horns seem to be distinct from ears)? easysavings.com.mt/images/shops/isfahan/Logo%20Isfahan.jpg * "Gold griffin-headed armlet Achaemenid Persian, 5th-4th century BC" s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/a5/fe/f1/a5fef15170c9416fcec3c4a9fa3e19be.jpg 6. "Animals in Ancient Near Eastern Art" metmuseum.org/toah/hd/anan/hd_anan.htm Quote:During the late fourth to early third millennium B.C. in Elam (southwestern Iran), craftspeople created remarkable depictions of animals behaving like humansââ¬âa theme that may have related to early myths or fables, now lost (66.173). Which figure 66.173 links to this 'chimera' of bull head and upper torso but with body of human, sitting in human posture: metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/66.173 But that's late 4th to 3rd millennium BCE in Iran. Yet chimera imagery it is. (By the way, there are some generally amazing images at metmuseum.org/toah/hd/anan/hd_anan.htm ) Regardless of whether IVC is allowed to be Vedic and/or its iconography is allowed to be so, "Elam" (SW Iran) at 4th to 3rd millennia BCE has not been called IE by IE-ists in any sense afaik (but is supposed to have Sumerian connections...), hence "chimera" type imagery can't be claimed as some IE motif. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 03-14-2016 Some Europeans are getting a bit put out and "demand a recount". Just kidding. Some have the same issues I have. Better to read in full at links: - snplogic.blogspot.com/2015/04/how-little-we-know-about-ancient-dna.html - snplogic.blogspot.com/2015/12/how-little-we-know-about-ancient-dna.html Excerpts: 1. snplogic.blogspot.com/2015/04/how-little-we-know-about-ancient-dna.html Quote:Sunday, April 19, 2015Rest at link. The maps at the link are meaningful: snplogic.blogspot.com/2015/04/how-little-we-know-about-ancient-dna.html 2. snplogic.blogspot.com/2015/12/how-little-we-know-about-ancient-dna.html Quote:However, the same group of people turn to the aDNA evidence (blindly) to express 100% confidence in other theories, for example, everything from the notion that R1b xV88 couldn't be found west of modern Poland until the Indo-European expansions. (I find this notion laughable.)Rest at link. A comment: Quote:Thomas Alan^ Don't know why someone called "Thomas Alan" would be interested in complaining: assuming his surname (which is inherited patrilineally, note) is reflective of his antecedents, then he's possibly an Alani type Sarmatian (Scythian descendent/cousin, but could also have been a population adopted into being "Scythian" culturally). But if of an actually Alani population somewhat, then, according to the Kurgan thesis, he's derived from super-oryans anyway. About these lines: Quote:These same "experts" even go so far as to claim to be able to tie specific haplogroups to languages, tribes, and epochs. They will make broad statements, like, "all of Europe was populated by [this haplogroup or that], which represented the [Cro-Magnons or whatever], until they were replaced, en masse, by the [new Haplogroup.]"Probably means people like Spencer Wells, who has proudly published his R1b Y haplogroup? That was before Wells knew that he should have kept quiet unless he was R1a, since now R1a is considered even cooler: R1a Euro males, deeply into genetics blogging, have been chirruping. Especially when they find two R1aZ293 individuals (dated around 1,371-914 BCE, Middle-Bronze age, late enough for admixture a la with Scythians IMO) - from a clutch of four R1aZ93 - one of whom was already carrying markers for blue eyes and two carrying markers for dark blond/brown hair. <- Again, contrary to Elst, the IE matter is still about white supremacism. 3. Abstract of the paper eclipsed by (Haak et al 2015) "the Massive Bronze Age Migrations From The Steppes": journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0128810 Ancient DNA from South-East Europe Reveals Different Events during Early and Middle Neolithic Influencing the European Genetic Heritage Hervella et al 2015, June 8, 2015 Quote:Abstract They seem to be talking of mtDNA. Isn't the Supremacist conclusion going to be that Bronze Age Steppe (IE/Oryan) Y did wife-stealing of European women of Neolithic Anatolian descent? (A la the pre-Haak conclusion by Jobling and co. of how Europe was made up of a 80% replacement of European hunter gatherers by middle-eastern farmers, and which was then explained with stories about European hunter gatherers females doing female hypergamy and marrying the ME farmers. But when Haak came out with the Kurgan conclusion, Jobling et al had to backpeddle not only on their genetics study's results but also on the whole story they built up to "explain" how the replacement [that was retracted] had happened.) Of course mtDNA does give an additional picture about ancestry which is useful too. [Since Y haplogroups (like R1a) only considers 1/N ancestors at any generation: only on the patrilineal side. E.g. a man's father's father's father's father etc "was R1a". His Y haplogroup does not consider all the other ancestors of the man, like his father's father's mother's father's father etc.] But I'm not surprised that Y patrilineal lines must be all important for IE-ists to focus on. Their thesis IE-ism runs down the male line (wife-stealing from other/invaded cultures and all.) Unmasking AIT - Husky - 03-14-2016 Post 2/3 Crosspost. Loosely associates with 2 posts up (#469) [quote name='Husky' date='14 March 2016 - 07:14 PM' timestamp='1457962568' post='118012'] Quote:Friday, 29 January 2016 The above entry by blog owner Nirjhar007 seems to imply that aDNA from skeletons at IVC may have a chance to turn out to be meaningful. Ah, didn't read the following well last time: burial and cremation were both done in Harappa, but after 2000 BCE cremation seems to have become more common. That sounds more promising for IVC aDNA then. varnam.nationalinterest.in/2009/09/a-4000-year-old-lepers-tale/ Quote:Another point is regarding the burial; after 2000 BCE, burial was uncommon except for some special cases like infants and spiritual people. Harappan skeletons were both cremated ââ¬â there is evidence at Sanauli at least ââ¬â and buried, but true burials are very few compared to expected numbers. Many archaeologists believe that cremation must have been widely practised by Harappans. Also, at Dholavira and other sites, dozens of graves turned out to be without any bones which implies symbolic burials. [/quote]But need many aDNA samples, and from many SSVC/SSVC-era/BMAC etc settlements, to get any proper idea. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 03-14-2016 This is actually an important post. Post 3/3 Excerpts follow. First the summary. Summary 1. Apparently the steppe is not the home of the Kurgans: 5th millennia BCE (proto-)Kurgans seen in "Leyla-Tepe" in Azerbaijan. I.e. before the steppes. Copper Age. Q: Why still credit the Ukrainian/Russian Steppes with the Kurgans - i.e. why define "Kurgan theory == Steppe" - when said steppes didn't invent "Kurgan Kultur" (and all that that entails)? 2. Leyla-Tepe in Azerbaijan (Caucasus space) is thought to be predecessor to Maykop (unless Maykop was magically a parallel development?). 3. Finally one reaches Maykop at the Caucasus boundaries to the steppes, which is thought to have influenced Yamnaya to its north. And Maykop already has wheeled carts, note. From Yamnaya (preferred PIE urheimat of white supremacists) are the bronze age invasions into Europe. <- Note: "Massive Migrations From The Steppe" has so far only used aDNA to explain modern European genetics. Not Indian-Afghan-Iranian, whose steppe origins have only been assumed via the post Yamna steppe cultures "Sintashta" (and Srubnaya or Andronovo). But Sintashta, where the aDNA found displays "Asian-specific" R1aZ93 Y-Haplogroup dominating the Sintashta culture (a.o.t. Yamna steppe culture which is dominated by R1b) - may well be derived from Maykop and hence explain the difference between Sintashta and Yamna. (They're supposed to be checking aDNA in Maykop. But see note on mtDNA found at Maykop grave site further down.) 4. PIE is argued to trace to Caucasus: i.e. "Caucasus = urheimat, not Steppe". 5. At least one set of researchers (and possible another paper, have only seen the abstract so far) who argue for the Caucasus to be the PIE urheimat seem to insist that not Steppe but Caucasus is the origin for the arrival of "Indo-Iranian" in "C/SW/S Asia" (i.e. Indian-Afghan-Iranian space). INSERT CORRECTION: They seem to speak only of "Indo-Aryan" and "Indians" in "South and Central Asia" as tracing to the Caucasus. They seem to have left out "Indo-Iranian", "Iranian" etc. Argument provided seems to be of the form that: EHG (IIRC "Eastern European Hunter Gatherers") genetic component at site of Yamnaya culture is not seen in "Indo-Iranians"*, whereas CHG ("Caucasus Hunter Gatherers") component is seen in significant amounts in both Yamnaya AND S/SW/C Asia (i.e. Indo-Afghan space) and that "therefore" IE reached S/SW/C Asia directly from Caucasus rather than via Steppe. * INSERT CORRECTION: Again, they seem to speak only of "Indo-Aryan" and "Indians" in "South and Central Asia" as tracing to the Caucasus. They seem to have left out "Indo-Iranian", "Iranian" etc. 6. Major whining by white supremacist oryanists since they wanted their EHG component in Yamnaya to be source of R1a/R1b and "therefore PIE" using the logic - oh no, I'm not making this up - that R1a/R1b is the haplogroup that's behind IE success in the form of patriarchy (replacing other Y haplogroups) + women-stealing. Considering for the moment that Caucasus = PIE Urheimat, then Steppe is not so - obviously - and either R1a/R1b will still be declared the invasion marker, if its presence is demonstrated in the aDNA of the region of the Caucasus under question and from there traced to Maykop and Yamnaya, or - less likely - perhaps something else becomes the "invasion marker". The Hindoo heathens don't [yet?] win, but it's so much fun to see the Steppe-supremacist IE-ists howl, resorting to special pleading such as "linguistic continuity from EHG Hunter Gatherers era" (i.e. pre-PIE, undermining linguistic arguments) and insisting that EHG* "must be" the sole source R1a/R1b and "hence PIE". Etc. (* From my limited/laughable understanding EHG is modelled as a group of European Hunter Gatherers who have inputs from "ANE" that Caucasus also is to have received. But not enough Caucasus aDNA may have been tested yet to determine R1a/R1b, I think. At present a now-geographically-restricted G something Y haplogroup seems to dominate some or perhaps large parts of the Caucasus.) 7. Small side note. Apparently a German paper noted that the mtDNA at a grave site in Maykop (in Caucasus - where it meets the steppes - exhibiting Kurgan kultur and which was to have influenced Yamnaya) showed Haplogroup M52. Steppe Supremacist IE-ist gradually got increasingly angry about it after noting that the M52 found at Maykop was "Indian-specific" - =direct quote. IIRC, the Steppe Supremacist first remarked this was merely surprising, but eventually said something about how if M52 and other such "weird" strains that were not attested in Yamnaya were to be found at Maykop hereafter, then he would boycott -I mean- he would consider Maykop did not influence Yamnaya. Or something desperate like that. Whatever he said exactly, he was clearly exasperated. (Did I mention he sounded pretty anti-Indian/Afghan/Iran in general since clearly he feels he's competing for the PIE Urheimat and the origins of "whiteness". Sad.) Steppe Supremacists are way worse - being white supremacists - than people who are pontificating a Caucasus urheimat and contemplate a Caucasus-direct route to "C/SW/S Asia". Although I'm not a fan of any IE-ism - especially when we haven't even yet seen aDNA from Indo-Afghan-Iranian space - at least the Caucasus-PIE type of IE-ists don't seem to yet articulate the sorts of B-fantasy visions of "Oryans (white people) thundering down and wife-stealing" the way Steppe-PIE Supremacists have. I may be wrong in my assessment however. 8. Small side-note. One Mariya Ivanova argues for Iranian origins to Maykop. 9. Smaller side-note still. Regular knowledgeable but *western* people - who notably at least use remarkable common sense in their arguments unlike their Steppe PIE nutters disputants - moreover are seen arguing Iranian origins for goat-domestication, pastoralism and burial rites/kurgans (don't forget wheeled carts) - i.e. all things the Steppe proponents were claiming for themselves - as a *precursor* to Leyla-Tepe. I.e. they're essentially saying "PIE" kultur is Iranian and by all others' arguments these trademark PIE kultur features go with the IE language. So essentially these *western* people are arguing - and not from white supremacism or the sudden oryan/white-wannabe-ism of some Iranians - that Iran=PIE urheimat (despite such western people not touching on the linguistic matter - not telling stories about it - and instead sticking to attested "Kurgan culture" features and continuity from Iran/C Asia). + Some *western* people were contemplating - almost arguing for - Afghanistan as Urheimat using the work of Joanna Nichols, whom Dhu has often summarised. + And one person even used the arguments of Robin Kar Bradley (also brought up by Dhu) - yes that Robin Kar Bradley, who argued that IVC=origins of western civilisation - to make an argument for Iran/Afghanistan as source of pastoral-nomadic culture and agriculture into steppe: IIRC Bradley's argument of a radial distribution of outward pastoral then inward agricultural dispersal of the civilisation, but remixed for an Iranian or else Afghan PIE. (See arunsmusings.blogspot.com/2015/09/robin-bradley-kar-on-proto-indo-european.html. <- Credits: This last link found on Bharat Rakshak when googling for something about Kar Bradley recently.) Anyway, the supporting data: 1. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla-Tepe_culture Quote:Leyla-Tepe culture 2. On Maykop: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture Quote:Culture"Innovations originating in Iran and C-Asia spread throughout the Syro-Anatolian region" presumably still talking about 4th millennium BCE. 3. Harvard claims Oceania is the new Eurasia. (Orwell 1984 reference) I mean: Researchers declare Causasus is the new PIE Urheimat AND - as I understand it - argue that "Indo-Iranian" went directly from Caucasus into C/SW/S Asia. (Actually, they specifically mention "Indians". Not sure about Iranians? <- Interesting #1) EDITED: Although this article is from start DEC 2014, while Haak et al (submitted end DEC 2014, pub Feb 2015) and more importantly Mathieson et al were published in 2015 with sampled aDNAs from the steppes including Sintashta, the argument is still that that there's no EHG (Eastern European Hunter Gatherer or something) genetic component in Indians and Armenians. news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/12/the-surprising-origins-of-europeans/ Quote:The surprising origins of Europeans David Anthony may not be happy. Important to remember, so repeating: Haak et al's 2015 paper (includes David Anthony) - which was "Posted in Feb 2015" - about Massive Bronze Migrations from the Steppes, concerned Steppe genetic diffusion into Europe onlee (not Hindu homeland or Iranian space*). And this steppe diffusion into Europe was then of course tied with IE language diffusion into Europe, since if white supremacists' idols/"ancestors" - the PIE Oryans - do the migrating, then genes & language always go together. * Which they only hypothesised/concluded from the usual assumpton of AIT, without having even analysed any let alone sufficient aDNA from "SW, C/SC, S Asia" i.e. India-Afghan-Iran space. 4. Going by the abstract alone, this next paper from July 2015 seems to confirm the above Harvard postulation. Specifically: going by the way the following abstract lists the CHG (Caucasus Hunter Gatherer genetic component) going into Yamnaya Steppe Culture separately from their mentioning of the CHG component in "C/S Asia", it seems to further be arguing for "Indo-Aryan" languages going from Caucacus directly to "central and south Asia". Interesting that they mention "Indo-Aryan" not "Indo-Iranian" though... (<- Interesting #2) nature.com/ncomms/2015/151116/ncomms9912/full/ncomms9912.html Quote:Jones et al, "Upper Palaeolithic genomes reveal deep roots of modern Eurasians" (dated as "Received 20 July 2015") 5. 2015 Paper (in German, haven't read it myself) academia.edu/16867978/2015_Der_Kaukasus_im_Spannungsfeld_zwischen_Osteuropa_und_Vorderem_Orient_Dialog_der_Kulturen_Kultur_des_Dialoges_im_Gedenken_an_den_140._Geburtstag_von_Alexander_A._Miller_Materialien_der_Internationalen_Fachtagung_Humboldt-Kolleg_In_Germany_English_and_Russian_ "2015 Der Kaukasus im Spannungsfeld zwischen Osteuropa und Vorderem Orient: Dialog der Kulturen, Kultur des Dialoges (im Gedenken an den 140. Geburtstag von Alexander A. Miller): Materialien der Internationalen Fachtagung/Humboldt-Kolleg (In Germany, English and Russian)" The following excerpt was mentioned as being from p.166: Quote:Majkop verfügen sowohl über eine ëpaläolithischeû Haplogruppe (U8) als auch über ëneolithischeû Haplogruppen: V (ÃÂõôþûÃÆöúþ u. a. 2014), T2, N1. Bei einem Objekt aus einem Grab bei der Staniza Novosvobodnaja fanden wir auch die Haplogruppe ÃÅ52. Die gewonnenen Daten sprechen für eine (auf dem Niveau der mitochondrialen DNA) mögliche genetische Gemeinschaft der archäologischen Kulturen von Majkop und Novosvobodnaja. Translation (don't sue me for errors, I'm doing this as a free service): Quote:Maykop possesses a paleolithic haplogroup (U8) as well as neolithic haplogroups: V (ÃÂõôþûÃÆöúþ u. a. 2014), T2, N1. At/near an object from a grave at Staniza Novosvobodnaya, we also found the Haplogroup M52. The information obtained speaks of a (at the level of mitochondrial DNA) possible genetic community of the archaeological cultures of Maykop and Novosbodnaya. And the discovery of mtDNA Haplogroup M52 at Maykop located on Caucasus-Steppe threshold - CORRECTION: at the "genetic community connection" Novosvobodnaya grave site, but immediately inferred by others to be inclusive of Maykop's own genetic make-up - made a Steppe White Supremacist geneticist blogger unhappy: he stated it was "Indian-specific". (And IIRC implied it was not present in all the many aDNA samples retrieved from Yamnaya/steppe sites. Relevant because: Yamnaya was influenced by Maykop.) And so because the presence of "Indian-specific" mtDNA M52 at a grave site at Novosvobodnaya culturally associated with Maykop is apparently bugging a Steppe White supremacist geneticist, I take it as a possibly important and certainly good thing. But soon we'll hear how Oryan PIE-ists from the Caucasus went to steal themselves some wives in India. :Any minute now: [Oh duh, I just missed how the title on the paper says "In Germany, English and Russian", presumably it's already been translated by professionals (?).] 6. For general information on the "revolutionary" new ways of testing DNA extracted from skeletal material at burial sites: news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/12/the-surprising-origins-of-europeans/ Quote:Such testing is dependent on sophisticated techniques, Reich said. When DNA can be extracted from bones found at burial sites, most of it actually is microbial DNA from the organisms that have colonized the bones since its ownersââ¬â¢ death. In addition, researchers have to be careful that samples arenââ¬â¢t contaminated by handling after they are unearthed. This was actually an important post. ADDED: Corrections, in blue. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 03-19-2016 Related to the previous. Detail added to previous post: Quote:EDITED: Although this article is from DEC 2014, while Haak et al (submitted end DEC 2014, pub Feb 2015) and more importantly Mathieson et al were published in 2015 with sampled aDNAs from the steppes including Sintashta, Quote:[Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo ... Note that Haak et al 2015 only traced origins of some European "IE" languages to Bronze Age steppe invasions. Quote:Western and Eastern Europe came into contact ~4,500 years ago, as the Late Neolithic Corded Ware people from Germany traced ~3/4 of their ancestry to the Yamnaya, documenting a massive migration into the heartland of Europe from its eastern periphery. This steppe ancestry persisted in all sampled central Europeans until at least ~3,000 years ago, and is ubiquitous in present-day Europeans. These results provide support for the theory of a steppe origin of at least some of the Indo-European languages of Europe.No mentions of India, or even all Europe. Again: contrary to Indians declaring that Kurgan steppe thesis shows AIT on India based on Haak or even Jones, Haak did NOT show any data for IE invasion/migration into India. At most they can hypothesise, like all papers on IE in Europe end up having write-off paragraphs of mere conjecture about how "IE" would have came into India too (and even when they choose to support their point, they sneakily refer to statements in papers that specifically say NOTHING about AIT/AMT). Maybe the Haak-collected data had been published earlier - before Dec 2014 - say in another paper or otherwise made available to researchers, just not their (method and) analysis, which came out with their Steppe paper? I suspect the Harvard researchers now looking to establish PIE in Caucasus Maykop (their plan B now that steppe failed**) were already aware of the steppe aDNA data that had been coming out in trickles and spurts. - Because Jones et al (July 2015) - which is after Haak et al 2015 and made a correction to Haak - IS still trying to derive Armenians and Indians directly from Caucasus rather than steppes, see a subsequent post. I.e. shifting PIE urheimat into Caucasus, not considered one of the 3 main PIE urheimat theories at all. For years it has only been 3 leading hypotheses with Kurgan > Anatolian and Balkan as a distant 3rd. See documented list of 3 main PIE homelands at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_Urheimat_hypotheses (as at last week): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_Urheimat_hypotheses Quote:Proto-Indo-European Urheimat hypothesesNote how Gamkrelidze et al's Caucasus/Armenian hypothesis was not really under consideration - it's listed with Trubetzkoy, PCT, and OIT. Caucasus as Urheimat was NOT one of the 3 prominent PIE hypothesis at all. But suddenly Harvard falls back onto it with soft-Caucasus argument: "Patterson said that linguistic evidence has tracked the ancestral language, called ââ¬Ålate proto-Indo-Europeanââ¬Â to about 3,500 years ago in the Caucasus". Says something. (Because the data that's been coming in - see also subsequent posts - revealed something inconvenient, so they're clutching to nearest-to-steppe/european theories that may still save face.) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprachbund Quote:A sprachbund (/ÃËsprÃâÃÂkbÃÅ nd/; German: [ÃËÃÆpÃÂaÃÂxbÃÅ nt], "federation of languages") ââ¬â also known as a linguistic area, area of linguistic convergence, diffusion area or language crossroads ââ¬â is a group of languages that have common features resulting from geographical proximity and language contact. They may be genetically unrelated, or only distantly related. Where genetic affiliations are unclear, the sprachbund characteristics might give a false appearance of relatedness. Areal features are common features of a group of languages in a sprachbund. Well, Trubetzkoy's sprachbund seems a good description for origins if steppe or caucasus is hypothesised as locus of PIE. Unless proto-proto-(etc)-PIE still had IE features and negligible Caucasus influences (as steppe proponents actually want to claim: that E-Euro Hunter Gatherers actually spoke proto-proto PIE etc, and that Caucasus didn't change the lingo). a. Caucasus was filled with different unrelated lingos. b. Yamna consisted of 2 unrelated genetic components thought to have admixed in Yamna (called miscegenation had it happened in India, say). Yamna filled with demonstrably non-native/non-original culture - e.g. Kurgans can be traced into Azerbaijan and then Maykop - both Caucasus -, wheeled carts in Maykop before Yamna, way better/professional level bronze artefacts at Maykop compared to rudimentary/amateurish bronze in Yamna (and an apparent paucity of Yamna bronze products, going by google image results) despite Yamna being younger than Maykop etc. So, Yamna in all ways derivative: as if it was still learning to copy Maykop. But Yamna has been pinpointed as the source for the steppe invasions into Eurospace. And Yamna modelled as having the EHG (let's call it European-specific) genetic component not seen in the "IE-speaking" Armenias or Indians, who demonstrate only the CHG portion. So: either Yamna spoke PIE yet had to borrow all so-called "steppe" kurgan kultur from Caucasus, or the "Kurgan" culture that Yamna imported from Caucasus, and which formatively influenced Yamna, brought in not just the kultur but "PIE" too: since the steppe argument was always that PIE lingo AND kultur went hand in hand. The argument is only split into kurgan (previously "PIE") kultur as separate from PIE lingo by Steppists if they can't claim originating the kultur any more: they still want to claim the PIE language. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 03-19-2016 Not important. Something funny that has to do with these earlier posted extracts: [quote name='Husky' date='14 March 2016 - 12:49 PM' timestamp='1457939483' post='118011'] snplogic.blogspot.com/2015/04/how-little-we-know-about-ancient-dna.html These same "experts" even go so far as to claim to be able to tie specific haplogroups to languages, tribes, and epochs. They will make broad statements, like, "all of Europe was populated by [this haplogroup or that], which represented the [Cro-Magnons or whatever], until they were replaced, en masse, by the [new Haplogroup.]" (Often the dominant invader haplogroup in their theories tends to be the one of the posting "expert," but that's just coincidence, I'm sure.) snplogic.blogspot.com/2015/12/how-little-we-know-about-ancient-dna.html They also rely on the aDNA evidence to express 100% confidence in wild notions of sex selection that have more in common with dimestore novels than anything scientific. The proponents of said theories also happen to be mostly males bearing R1b. Yes folks, in a world where racial identity is taboo, any sense of ingroup-outgroup dynamics for Western Europeans has simply been transferred to tiny markers on one chromosome. A comment: Quote:Thomas Alan [/quote] On all the above excerpts, note the following entertainment - from a euro genetics site (and I was right about Spency Wells). Be aware the comments start from 2013. There is STILL no data public about the Y haploroups in Maykop, let alone for the 2013 assumption by the first person commenting below (an R1b person of course, and 'coincidentally' the admin of that euro genetics site) that Maykop was R1b and that therefore bronze smelting, PIE kultur etc was brought to the world by R1b: Quote:(Maciamo) Oh the hysteria. Sadly another commenter rained on his parade: Quote:(kamani) Other comments there also repeat what I already suspected. Not just my joke on Spencer Wells - which turned out to be true, apparently - but that supremacists may try to claim Gobekli Tepe (even by means of IE, say via PCT. Although that last specific case is not discussed here): Quote:(nordicwarbler, haplogroup I1) Poor Spency. Only R1b. Probably heart-broken when he discovered there were no chariots in R1b-dominated Yamna (c.f. R1aZ93-dominated Sintashta). Spencer Wells is considering alternatives... of the kind Thomas Alan further above complained about: "since the R1b marker is clearly associated with superior abilities to fake historical evidence, they cleverly wrote all the other Europeans out of history". (But it's not the Euros that have been written out of history.) Must be loser men - you know, the kind who got beat up by all the girls in high school - who try to compensate for their loserness by aggrandising their haplogroups. If R1b really was propagated by losers like Spencer Wells, it should have become extinct long ago. Crazy people, who want to live vicariously through others, but can't achieve anything themselves (except claiming stuff for themselves). Curious how important to losers is patrilineality (or even its converse) - going by the Ra-Ra discussions like the above (they're usually adults, btw cary, when both Y and mtDNA haplogroups show only a small portion of their genetic inheritance. Another interesting thing is how little - in general - of a person's autosomal DNA may have been obtained from any randomly selected ancestor from 10+ generations ago: ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/debunking/understanding Quote:3) An autosomal DNA test provides information from the great majority of your DNA (the autosomes are the chromosomes other than the X, Y and mtDNA). Although full genome-sequencing is not far away, it remains unaffordable for most and autosomal DNA tests usually examine up to around 1 million genetic markers (SNPs) spread across the genome. These give information about all your ancestors in recent generations, but once you go beyond about 10 generations back into the past (roughly 300 years) only a small fraction of your ancestors have contributed directly to your DNA: so even if William Shakespeare were your ancestor (born ~450 years ago), you almost certainly inherited no DNA from him.[/b] This can be a bit confusing: you did inherit almost all your DNA from ancestors alive at that time, but because there are so many of them (very roughly 30,000 thousand ancestors), you only actually inherited your DNA from a small fraction of them. The unilineal Y and mtDNA are exceptions: you inherited them from all your patrilineal and matrilineal ancestors respectively (the former only if you are male), and so in a sense they can provide a link with very remote ancestors, but they represent only a small fraction of your genes, they provide little information about your ancestors and with only limited inferences about time depth. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 03-19-2016 Like post 472 further up - from which this one follows - this is also an important post. So is the next one. Post 1/2 On the subject of Harvard trying to trace PIE to Caucasus. Specifically trying to trace "late PIE" to Maykop in the zone where the Caucasus at last meets the steppe. 1. Note Maykop is 3700 BCE-3000 BCE. It's to have influenced Yamna. 2. Since they're claiming Indians and Armenians can't be derived from Yamna or Yamna's partial-genetic derivatives (Sintashta 2100-1800 BCE etc, since Sintashta has 60% of the Yamna genetic component which 60% includes that euro component that they can't convincingly trace in Armenians or Indians), they're now hoping to find evidence in Maykop that will allow them to derive Armenians and Indians (invasions by Indo-Aryan-speakers into S and C Asia) directly from Maykop at Caucasus. 3. But Maykop ended 3000 BCE. - Either they're positing a direct outflow from Maykop into C-Asian "IndoAryan cultures" that would then eventually lead into "S Asia" - i.e. a trail of IA from Maykop through C Asia into the subcontinent reaching India by 1800 BCE for standard AIT. - Or they're positing an immediate outflow directly from Maykop into India/S Asia and C Asia. In which case they're contemplating "Indo-Aryan" languages reaching India before standard AIT dates. [4. Meanwhile, Maykop related-Novosvobodnaja already attested to "Indian-specific" M52 not attested in Maykop-"influenced" Yamna.**] 5. Either way, no route from Maykop to (Yamna to) Sintastha to Indian subcontinent and C Asia is being argued: Yamna, and hence Yamna's genetically derived steppe cultures like Sintashta, are not considered as possibilities at present for explaining either 1. Indo-Aryan languages or 2. Indian genetics. ** It's all based on the aDNA found in the steppes so far. Also: a. Yamna has been modelled as 50% Caucasus Hunter Gatherer (CHG) and 50% E-Euro Hunter Gatherer (EHG) genetic components. (CHG is specifically said to be 48-58% of Yamna.) b. Yamna is R1b dominated c. But Sintashta is dominated by R1a, specifically "Asian-specific" R1az93 (relatively rare in Euro-space). d. Note: Mathieson et al 2015 seems to be ruling out Central Europe's Corded Ware culture (rich in some R1a) having travelled E and become the source of Sintashta's R1a. Rather, they posited an influx of R1az93 into Sintashta from some other direction: biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/10/10/016477.full.pdf Quote:"Previous work documented that such ancestry appeared east of the Urals beginning at least by the time of the Sintashta culture, and suggested that it reflected an eastward migration from the Corded Ware peoples of central Europe5. However, the fact that the Srubnaya also harbored such ancestry indicates that the Anatolian Neolithic or EEF ancestry could have come into the steppe from a more eastern source. Further evidence that migrations originating as far west as central Europe may not have had an important impact on the Late Bronze Age steppe comes from the fact that the Srubnaya possess exclusively (n=6) R1a Y-chromosomes (Extended Data Table 1), and four of them (and one Poltavka male) belonged to haplogroup R1a-Z93 which is common in central/south Asians12, very rare in present-day Europeans, and absent in all ancient central Europeans studied to date." e. Again: Yamna = modelled as 50% CHG and 50% EHG. Since Steppists insist that Yamna's heavy R1b Y haplogroup - which they tie to PIE - is native to Steppes and insist that it is not remotely Caucasus-derived, they - geneticists among them - develop stories arguing that R1b males went off to the Caucasus and got themselves wives from the Caucasus to explain the 50% CHG component. Problems with this argument as noted by others: - there is in fact some non-Caucasus mtDMA in Yamna (implying that it's from the EHG component, and implying also that at least some of the Yamna Y haplogroups are from the CHG component) - yet because Steppists want to associate PIE with R1b and claim that R1b is exclusively from EHG and absent in CHG, they're essentially arguing 100% native EHG female replacement by CHG women, including replacement of all native EHG sisters of R1b (and no trace of their mothers either). - There's something very awkward about the 48%-58% CHG component being attributed to imported women ("wife-stealing, female exogamy" are all arguments that have been advanced by these Steppeist geneticists). Considering for the moment that R1b males went off to the Caucasus, genocided the males and dragged in their females as sex-slaves*** - or even secretly kidnapped Caucasus females unbeknownst to Caucasus males - and brought these females back to form Yamna PIE steppe kultur, it still does not explain what happened to the native women (since EHG mtDNA is being ignored or denied being EHG). - Considering 100% female replacement, there may be other explanations too (not sure how it works with the model of genetic components they have): 1. that the R1b that would significantly make up Yamna were migrants who didn't bring their own women (could explain why the M52 "Indian-specific" mtDNA of Maykop is absent in Yamna?) or 2. that their women kept dying at childbirth. (C.f. how Conquistador types in some upland part of S/C America ended up marrying local women a lot because Mediterranean women did not survive childbirth at that altitude, whereas the local women were adapted to it.) But both my examples require R1b to be migrants to the area. I think the former happened rather than the latter. *** A la the genocides that ancient Greek epics state as being perpetrated by the Greeks against Troy as per Iliad (but some of the aristocratic males were IIRC sold into slavery), and against IIRC some place in Egypt as per Odyssey: the men were mostly all killed when the Greeks were victorious, sometimes children too (like Hector's son), but usually the women and children were taken to Greece or sold into slavery. Another example from some centuries later was Euripedes' play about the plight of the Trojan women after Greek victory, which was indirect and conscientious self-criticism of his own era's genocide by Athens of the males of Melos, with the women and kids sold into slavery. But three points to be noted: 1. This behaviour was not limited to IE-speaking males, so not IE-specific. Nor even exclusive to humans. Lion males will kill off existing alphas, kill all its offspring and mate with the females of the pride. 2. Even in Homeric times - and more so thereafter - the Greeks were self-critical about Troy (in an authentic depiction of Odysseus' tale, Odysseus is clearly pained to narrate how his men genocided some place in Egypt on the trip home. Also: his men never made it home - which IIRC he was foretold - whereas he did); 3. Even if all the women of the nation that lost (say in the case of Troy) were abducted into Greece - instead of any being sold into slavery - that doesn't mean that Greek males killed off all their own women and mated only with the kidnapped foreign women, i.e. 100% female replacement. Now to return to the subject of Harvard trying to trace PIE to Caucasus. Specifically trying to trace "late PIE" to Maykop in the zone where the Caucasus at last meets the steppe. This bit yet again: news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2014/12/the-surprising-origins-of-europeans/ Quote:The surprising origins of Europeans MODIFIED (chronology of papers clarified): Even steppist supremacist geneticists complain disapprovingly (=admission) that the above is still being implied in Jones et al 2015 submitted July published Nov 2015 (much after Haak et al's "Massive Migration" from the steppes into Eurozone Feb 2015 paper, and some months after the Mathieson et al 2015 paper was submitted. Note that Jones herself had worked on Mathieson et al 2015, so she was aware of its conclusions and suggestions. Both the latter papers were coincidentally published at the same time, but there's a definite chronology and ordering of ideas between the two, with Mathieson et al's findings coming first and Jones et al following on from it and coming afterward). First, repeating the abstract: nature.com/ncomms/2015/151116/ncomms9912/full/ncomms9912.html Quote:Jones et al, "Upper Palaeolithic genomes reveal deep roots of modern Eurasians" (dated as "Received 20 July 2015") Now a part relevant to Indics from the main body of Jones et al article: nature.com/ncomms/2015/151116/ncomms9912/pdf/ncomms9912.pdf E.R. Jones et. al. ââ¬ËUpper Palaeolithic genomes reveal deep roots of modern Eurasians.ââ¬â¢ Nature Communications (2015). DOI: 10.1038/ncomms9912 Quote:CHG origins of migrating Early Bronze Age herders. We investigated the temporal stratigraphy of CHG influence by comparing these data to previously published ancient genomes. We find that CHG, or a population close to them, contributed to the genetic makeup of individuals from the Yamnaya culture, which have been implicated as vectors for the profound influx of Pontic steppe ancestry that spread westwards into Europe and east into central Asia with metallurgy, horseriding and probably Indo-European languages in the third millenium BC 5,7. CHG ancestry in these groups is supported by ADMIXTURE analysis (Fig. 1b) and admixture f3-statistics 14,25 (Fig. 5), which best describe the Yamnaya as a mix of CHG and Eastern European hunter-gatherers. The Yamnaya were semi-nomadic pastoralists, mainly dependent on stock-keeping but with some evidence for agriculture, including incorporation of a plow into one burial. As such it is interesting that they lack an ancestral coefficient of the EF genome (Fig. 1b), which permeates through western European Neolithic and subsequent agricultural populations. During the Early Bronze Age, the Caucasus was in communication with the steppe, particularly via the Maikop culture, which emerged in the first-half of the fourth millennium BC. The Maikop culture predated and, possibly with earlier southern influences, contributed to the formation of the adjacent Yamnaya culture that emerged further to the north and may be a candidate for the transmission of CHG ancestry. In the ADMIXTURE analysis of later ancient genomes (Fig. 1b) the Caucasus component gives a marker for the extension of Yamnaya admixture, with substantial contribution to both western and eastern Bronze Age samples. However, this is not completely coincident with metallurgy; Copper Age genomes from Northern Italy and Hungary show no contribution; neither does the earlier of two Hungarian Bronze Age individuals. "The Maikop culture predated and, possibly with earlier southern influences, contributed to the formation of the adjacent Yamnaya culture" -> i.e. Maikop itself derived from further south in the Caucasus. In any case, origins of "PIE" - and certainly wheels, kurgans and bronze smelting and fashioning - is NOT Yamna. Yamna only pinpointed as source of many European IE languages. Nothing more. Yamna is a derivative steppe kultur. And as per the paper Yamna (and hence its derived [partially genetically-related] cultures like Sintashta) does not seem to concern origins of 1. Indians or C-Asians (and Armenians); nor 2. "Indo-Aryan languages": Another excerpt from Jones et 2015 - nature.com/ncomms/2015/151116/ncomms9912/pdf/ncomms9912.pdf Quote:CHG left their imprint on modern populations from the Caucasus and also central and south Asia possibly marking the arrival of Indo-Aryan languages. Footnote 28 "Moorjani et al" is a paper by Reich (=IE supremacist), Moorjani et al. Footnote 28 is cited as the source for Jones et al stating: "It is estimated that this admixture in the ancestors of Indian populations occurred relatively recently, 1,900ââ¬â4,200 years BP, and is possibly linked with migrations introducing Indo-European languages and Vedic religion to the region (28)." BUT: contrary to Jones et al - deliberately? - misrepresenting what the Reich/Moorjani paper actually had to say, look at the red bit in the following - taken from the Moorjani/Reich paper - on what their data ACTUALLY had to say (or rather: didn't have to say) about AIT/AMT. The only statement in this excerpt about AIT/AMT are suppositions made by other papers as cited. (The references to the Rig Veda - and which traces the caste system to post-Rig veda and post-admixture events postulated by Reich/Moorjani et al's model - are from Witzel too IIRC.) ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769933/ Genetic Evidence for Recent Population Mixture in India Moorjani et al 2013 Quote:Moorjani, P. et al. Genetic evidence for recent population mixture in India. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 93, 422ââ¬â438 (2013).So, even with their mathematical modelling of the genetics data to show up mixing between N and S in India as recent as 4200 to 1900 years BP (in order to hereafter dismiss the R1a (and even R2) in the southern Chenchu Vanavasis etc as 'derivative' followed by founder effect; and to pre-emptively deny much more than that), they still can't pinpoint AIT. Instead, the only time that Reich/Moorjani mention the AIT/AMT - though they're careful to not link it with the 4200-1900 years before present admixture event(s) - is when they cite some other paper on AIT/AMT as having occurred: Quote:The period of around 1,900ââ¬â4,200 years BP was a time of profound change in India, characterized by the deurbanization of the Indus civilization,39 Moorjani/Reich et al said NOTHING about the 4200-1900 year admixture being attributed to anything related to any AIT/AMT (though they'd have loved to state it - that much is clear from the paper - they couldn't). YET Jones et al brazenly tell us that Moorjani et al said that AIT could be the cause of the 4200-1900 years BP - Compare again, what Jones et al said that Moorjani/Reich et al said (1), with what Moorjani-Reich et al REALLY said (2): Quote:(1. Jones et al 2015 It is estimated that this admixture in the ancestors of Indian populations occurred relatively recently, 1,900ââ¬â4,200 years BP, and is possibly linked with migrations introducing Indo-European languages and Vedic religion to the region (28). Quote:(2. Moorjani Reich et al 2013 It is also important to emphasize what our study has not shown. Although we have documented evidence for mixture in India between about 1,900 and 4,200 years BP, this does not imply migration from West Eurasia into India during this time. The difference between the two statements above is so stark that no one could equate the two meanings. Which means Jones at el deliberately inserted that falsehood. And so, one can conclude how Jones et al are not only infested with IE-ism/Invasionism too, but are actually liars. This seems to be the sum total of all IE-related genetics now. Anyway, the Moorjani/Reich paper specifically admitted it made no claims about AIT/AMT. - the paper was rather, I suspect, for the purpose of explaining away the R1a etc. Y haplogroups in ancient southern Hindoo Vanavasis as being "merely" an early "Indo-Aryan" input into said southern tribes. - Can't recollect if the Reich/Moorjani paper was working with merely re-modelling older genetic data from other papers to draw their conclusions, or working with new data that they collected. I think the former. - The Reich/Moorjani paper certainly wanted to conclude AIT/Indo-Aryan migrations etc - and assumed this was true, though it stated that was not the conclusion of the paper and not attested by the data the paper worked with. - On the other hand, the Reich/Moorjani paper was waxing eloquent on how the caste system was to have come about: as a result of ANI-ASI sporadic mixing even after IA invasions. This old "caste system as an eventual product of IA invasions" - resurrected now - has been echoed by ideologicals such as in the Payanichamy paper (=dravoodianist [christian?] working with appointed Chinese). Like post 472 further up, this is also an important post. So is the next one. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 03-19-2016 Important post. Related to post 472 and the previous post (also important). Post 2/2 The following paper is AFTER Haak et al 2015. - Remember: The Haak et al 2015 paper is the one that declared Massive Steppe migration into Euro space thought to have brought in most (but not all) "IE" languages in Europe, and which paper actually had nothing to conclude about India etc (not counting suppositions). - The Haak et al 2015 paper led to all kinds of loonies on the internet declaring that Kurgan hypothesis for PIE (i.e. the hypothesis where Pontic Caspian Steppe = PIE urheimat) has finally won against Anatolian hypothesis for PIE, etc. In previous posts, have already seen how some researchers are now suddenly insisting how linguistics has essentially "always" pointed to some Caucasus urheimat (this sudden changeover is courtesy Indian, C Asian and Armenian DNA not being derivable from Yamna). In the current post will see how researchers - again, after the Haak et al 2015 paper - are still finding data that makes them conclude the Anatolian hypothesis of PIE urheimat (in Anatolia) must be true instead. Although, they've only found evidence for one part of the Anatolian thesis - which part is not unique to the Anatolian thesis* (though it does not occur in the Kurgan thesis): of Iranian migrations northward into C Asia and beyond. Specifically, the paper considers the distribution of another interesting haplogroup (which has both old and rather young branches such as a few in Kazakhastan). Found via someone summarising the paper with: Quote:There was a movement from Iran to North of Central Asia in Neolithic times and maybe later also. It was the G1 haplogroup. But it's much more than that. Excerpts all worth reading. (And just in case it isn't clear: the Argyn Kazakh case is a late example of how the process has been ongoing since a long time.) journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0122968 Quote:Deep Phylogenetic Analysis of Haplogroup G1 Provides Estimates of SNP and STR Mutation Rates on the Human Y-Chromosome and Reveals Migrations of Iranic Speakers The Iranian-speaking Ossetians in the Greater Caucasus space - descendants of Alani type Sarmatians (Scythians), an Iranian-speaking population - show significant levels of the distinctive G2a1. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G-L293%2B Perhaps locally generated from the isolation? Or derived via 'founder effect' like behaviour from a particular subset of ancient Iranians of Iranic space? Speculation: If Indo-Afghan and/or Iranian space can explain some significant part of the non-European portion (non-EHG portion) of Euro-steppe genetics but if Euro-steppe genetics is not able to explain long-standing ancient genetic diversity in Indo-Afghan-Iranian populations (with steppists maybe choosing to dismiss this as local "genetics" of "invaded" natives of Iran and Afghanistan/SC Asia and India), then I'm not surprised there are many people rethinking the paradigm. Personally R1b- and R1a-heavy Steppe kulturs seem like founder effects as a result of outposts. I.e. founder effects caused by a few - but ancient and common - Indian-Iranian strains dumped in the steppes by a few clans of Indian-Iranian forming distant outposts [say for additional mining and metallurgy operations for say Tepe Hissar in Iran, to complement their existing haul]. Fits with the "Indian-specific" m52 mtDNA found at Maykop related grave site. Anyway. Again, note how the above paper is AFTER Haak et al 2015. Why is the above important? - Because: Steppe Kurgan PIE (and urheimat) thesis is far from Q.E.D. - Or (for those who're interested in this sort of thing): the Anatolian PIE (and urheimat) thesis is far from dead. (Though Renfrew's preferred version of the Anatolian PIE hypothesis - which claimed Anatolia -> steppes -> invasions on Indian-Iranian space - is no longer considered, for the same reason that the steppe hypothesis has been put on moratorium.) - And more importantly: certain other options factually remain open too. See also post 472. Anyone who claims otherwise at this early stage - at a stage when aDNA from Indo-Afghan-Iranian regions (i.e. including also all of Iranian backyard through Caucasus up to the very steppes) has yet to be collected - is LYING. (Or maybe they'll try hiding their crime behind how they 'conveniently' didn't read papers such as the above either. But conveniently latched onto what their IE-ist supremacist superiors told them and they just rolled over and believed it.) Moral: any heathen who can't think for themselves is a danger to itself and everyone else. ADDED: Read the excerpts from the Balanovsky paper in conjunction with this again: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture Quote:Culture And to repeat: "Indian-specific" mtDNA M52 already found at Maykop-connected burial site (see post 472 further above). This post and the previous one - along with post 472 further above, from which they follow - are important. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 03-26-2016 Important post. Related to other posts in this thread marked "important". 1. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians Quote:Expansion (Note that on 5 July 2007 one "John Alan Halloran" added the Sumer section to Wackypedia's "Indo-Iranians" page, emphasised in italics above. The Mesopotamia and Syria bit was already there even by 2007. Is that a blunder by the IE-ists?) Hurrians lived in N Mesopotamia, Sumer was in S Mesopotamia. About the all-important blue bit - [size="5"]BUT the aDNA samples found in Bronze Age Mesopotamia (down to Roman era) are only Indian-specific mtDNA - not anything Yamna, not any of the 60% Yamna element in Sintashta, heck not even "C-Asian" or "Iranian" mtDNA:[/size] 2. journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0073682 Witas et al Sep 2013 Quote:mtDNA from the Early Bronze Age to the Roman Period Suggests a Genetic Link between the Indian Subcontinent and Mesopotamian Cradle of Civilization (Soon we'll hear how Indo-Aryans from the steppe invaded India via Mesopotamia. Any minute now. Except the mtDNA is still Indian-specific.) ** BTW: The above uses the TransHimalayan, but the "Tibeto-Burman" considerations are very probably merely because an Indic signal that's definitely present in them, from: 1. the ancient Indic admixture still extant in Tibet. (And Indic and Tibeto-Burmese populations intermarrying is still ongoing among the Tibeto-Burman Sherpa, for instance. This is natural as heathens intermarry rather readily, and there are many HindOOs among Sherpa, plus the Sherpa look endearing. As a result, lots of R1a, other Indic-Y and strong Indic mtDNA seen among Sherpa. Therefore Sherpa are Tibeto-Burman-Indic.) 2. possibly the Indic people once native to Himalayan regions of India that had been going about in the spill-over areas between India-Nepal and Tibet etc. Example: there's the Dardic ("Indo-Aryan" subbranch) speaking, ethnically-Indic among Brogpa (=Indic converts to Bon and eventually Tibetan Buddhism, who had lived in at least the India-bordering regions of Tibet and many of whom are now living in Indian Ladakh and Paki adjoining areas) etc. This Dardic-speaking Indic group have long formed a community with Tibeto-Burmese, and thus there are Tibeto-Burmese, Indic and bi-ethnic subcommunities and individuals among Brogpa. (Note: Bon is quite close to Vedic religion because of Vedic-Hindu effects on Taoist-related Bon religion - as 'bi-ethnic' a religion in Tibet once, as the population - which is why nazi demons were trying to poach on Bon: they thought the religion and region was related to oryanism. It's also why nazi/white supremacist German women still come to terrorise the Brogpa with their "pregnancy tourism" to produce "Oryan" babies from Brogpa men whom the German nazi women sexually exploit and treat as 3rd world prostitutes.) 3. The Tibeto-Burmese ethnic group (an originally E-Asian population) arrived and settled in Tibet, Burma etc some 5 millennia back. Their arrival is estimated at 3000 BCE, which is after the earliest period of Mesopotamia (4th millennium BCE). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tibet Quote:Modern humans first inhabited the Tibetan Plateau at least twenty-one thousand years ago.[2] This population was largely replaced around 3,000 BC by Neolithic immigrants from northern China. However, there is a "partial genetic continuity between the Paleolithic inhabitants and the contemporary Tibetan populations".[2] (Note: the Witas et al 2013 Mesopotamian aDNA paper particularly mentioned that the aDNA mtDNA haplogroups found were to have "arisen in the area of the Indian subcontinent during the Upper Paleolithic".) Indics and TibetoBurmese in the spillover area have been intermarrying for some time. And it is the old Indic signal that persists among them (and which is constant in Indics from India and "Pakistan" and the Himalayan area adjoining Tibet) that is detected in ancient Mesopotamia to Roman era. And Tibetans have remained constant at a mountain lifestyle of herding, nomadism and farming at high altitudes. Unlike IVC Hindus of the ancient region spanning India and Pakistan - whose long-distance trade relations and outposts are established - it is unlikely (or there's no evidence of) Tibetans and Burmese of that time being into the same. tew.org/tibet2000/t2.ch3.agriculture.html Quote:AGRICULTURE has traditionally been the foundation of the Tibetan economy. The three major forms of occupation in Tibet are pastoral nomadism (drokpa), grain farming (shingpa) and semi-nomadism (sama-drok). Over 80 per cent of the total population of Tibet is still engaged in primary sector agriculture (TIN 1999a). Farmers are mainly concentrated in valleys where they utilise fertile soil for crop cultivation, while pastoral and semi-nomads are found on plateaus and mountains suitable for raising animals. Anyway, back to the point. Early Bronze Age down to Roman era aDNA in Mesopotamia shows Indian-specific mtDNA. Indian-specific. As in: not found bloody anywhere else. Not clustering with Euros, Anatolians, the Caucasus or other people or any other such excuses. 2500 BCE and the Indic in Mesopotamia were still Indian-specific ONLEE. So let's hear it: theories of male Oryan invaders' Y doing wife-stealing of native Indian mtDNA. Any minute now. niggers: Or better yet: call Harvard aDNA team (Haak/Mathieson) et al and get Sintashta - sadly only 2100-1800 BCE - to fit the mtDNA. Backwards in time of course. Except the heavy EHG component in Yamna - still strongly present in Sintashta - won't fit. :Oh blow: (No Indian specific mtDNA in steppe kulturs. Since some Indic lines travelled E->W and some S->N.) So, to return to the point: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians Quote:["Indo-Iranians"] also expanded into Mesopotamia and Syria and introduced the horse and chariot culture to this part of the world. Sumerian texts from EDIIIb Girsu (2500ââ¬â2350 BC) already mention the 'chariot' (gigir) and Ur III texts (2150ââ¬â2000 BC) mention the horse (anshe-zi-zi). Yet the aDNA from even back then - from 2500 BCE to the Roman era - at Mesopotamia was only of Indian-specific mtDNA. I'm not the one who made the connection to "Indo-Iranians" (though it should be specifically the Indic part of that): the IE-ists who penned that part of the wackypedia page made that blunder. Glad they made it though. Little did they foresee that the aDNA for the region at the very time involved would attest to Indian-specific mtDNA: as in, no mtDNA from steppes, anatolia, balkan, or caucasus PIE urheimat theories involved. Not even mtDNA from Iran or C-Asia. Indian-specific onlee, i.e. from the subcontinent. And it IS connected with the ancient trade routes connecting Indic-Afghan-Iranian (IAI) complexes to Mesopotamia to the west, and IAI complexes' connections to the north such as Maykop in Caucasus where it meets the steppes. (Remember: Maykop in all ways influenced Yamna, its poor imitator). And the connections between Maykop and Mesopotamia were already admitted in the wikipage on Maykop, as were Maykop's highly-plausible Iranian origins on the Iranian Plateau. (Plus then there's the Indian-specific M52 mtDNA found in the Maykop culture-related grave site.) And having said all that, look how I didn't even drag in the donkey (and generally equid) burials in Mesopotamia/Bronze Age Near East to push the case further, though I suppose one could in theory. IE-ists would, if any gains for eurocentrism were involved. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 03-31-2016 Wait wait wait, so now there's doubt about the 2026 BCE date accorded to "first preserved" Sintashta chariot? - Apparently the earlier date comes from dating the horse remains. - A date of 400 years later is accorded when dating the artifacts at the burial site. - Apparently no one has dated the "chariot" yet? Any reason why? (As with the supposedly Dadhyanch burial: Is this too yet another case of people of different centuries burying different things, and which are then taken by modern archeologists as belonging together because they were dug up at the same site? Have to ask.) touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm Quote:A later development in Mesopotamia was a type of two-wheeled vehicle whose solitary occupant sat astride a central beam as if riding an animal. However, it is likely that the first true chariots were developed on the Eurasian steppes, as shown by the burials discovered along the border between Russia and Kazakhstan, although this is still the subject of scholarly debate. *** Yet in euro genetics "ra ra" forums, they re-posted the same image as above (the one labelled "A burial with warrior, horses and chariot... from China!") and declare it is of the Sintashta chariot + horse burial instead. Almost like mini-me versions of David Anthony and Victor Mair, forging evidence. In any case, I know these "horse+chariot burials" as in the image were common in China. Mair insists they're C-Eurasian "Indo-Iranian" Europeans'* influence on China. (* Defined as Europeans who spoke Indo-Iranian and not miscegenated with Indians.) dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2032697/Trip-Zhou-Remains-horses-chariots-unearthed-3-000-year-old-Chinese-Dynastys-tomb.html Quote:Trip to the Zhou: Remains of horses and chariots unearthed from tomb dating back to 3,000-year-old Chinese dynasty touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm Quote:The famous Sumerian "Standard of Ur" depicts this earliest form of military wagon with four wheels drawn by four asses or ass/onager hybrids, together with a driver and a warrior armed with spears and axes riding into battle over the corpses of the slain. In fact, Sir Leonard Woodlley uncovered several burials among the Royal Tombs of Ur where warriors and the kings were buried not only with their carts and wagons, but also with the draft animals and the driver!Sumeria, you know that place and time where only Indian-specific mtDNA was found? This is obviously a lie: touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm Quote:History Obviously not true. Chariots on Standard of Ur (2500 BCE) do NOT have spoked wheels. Hence they're not considered "true chariots" (I didn't make the rules). In that case, can count IVC chariots as far earlier - also: they are indeed derived from (2 wheeled) utility wagons in the IVC too: Look for the images that go with the following extract at aryaninvasionmyth.wordpress.com/ Quote:The historians have constantly denied the existence of chariot in India before 1500 BCE. A re-examination of the excavation (1920-21 and 1933-34) report of Harappa published by the British Government of India in 1940 reveals that the chariot appears in India at 3000 BCE at Harappa (Vats 1940:452), and may have been made for the first time there itself. Many chariot toys including a covered copper chariot model were found from that date (see figures below). The original uncovered chariot must have been made at least a thousand years earlier. Still can't find a pic of the Sintashta horse + chariot burial (or even of any Sintashta chariot) on Google images. Yet I keep finding pics of Chinese horse+chariot burial (supposed to be influenced by Persians in this, with whom the Chinese had close relations). Anyway, returning to the supposed chariot in Sintashta: touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm Quote:Radio-carbon dating of horse remains interred with chariots now indicates that this ancient grassland culture, called by archaeologists the Sintashta-Petrovka people, began using chariots around the beginning of the Middle Bronze period, two hundred years before the first evidence of Middle Eastern chariots. (Based on the style of the artifacts found at the burial sites, Russian researchers previous dated the Sintasta chariots to two centuries after the first evidence of chariot use in the Middle East. More accurate radio-carbon testing is required to settle this dispute.) Auto-translated Russian wikipedia page on "Sintashta: Quote:On one of the sites (Crooked Lake) found chariots, dated the bones of a horse in 2026 year BC. e. Thus, Sintashta culture media used the first-preserved chariot in history (picture chariots Sumerian artifact known as The Standard Urschi, date from the middle of the 3rd millennium BC. E. [2]). That means that the earlier dating - that of the horse bones - was used to conclude the chariot at the same site was from 2026 BCE. The haven't used the later date of the buried artifacts. So, from the blue bit above: Presumably true chariots in "middle-east" are dated to some year X. - the horse bones next to steppe culture Sintashta's "true chariot" have been dated to 200 years before X - artifacts at said Sintashta burial site date the chariot to 200 years after X => a difference of 400 years between the dates accorded to Sintashta chariot, where the earlier date is 2026 BCE. So "Sintashta chariot" may just be from 1626 BCE. Or even later if they bothered to date the chariot itself instead of everything else around it. A late date would makes sense too, if the chariot was actually of native steppe people's manufacture (rather than migrants), as steppe people weren't even riding horses in the steppes until late 2nd millennium BCE (i.e. just before 1000 BCE). "More accurate radio-carbon testing required to settle dispute". Ya don't say. So in other words: it may NOT be the oldest preserved chariot after all? Let alone the oldest chariot. Why do they then shoot their mouth off? Who's betting it's more of David Anthony's loony antics. Mair is another serial forger... So it could be him too. Unless forging, like oryanist storytelling, is a feature of all steppists? Anyway if even horse-riding has NEVER been demonstrated in the steppes until the END of the 2nd millennium (i.e. a date closer to 1000 BCE than 2000 BCE) - who's betting that natives of the steppe hadn't got round to domesticating any horses to tie to their chariot yet at 2026 BCE? aryaninvasionmyth.wordpress.com/ Quote:People have doubted the ââ¬ÅAIT dateââ¬Â of onset of riding (4200 BCE) and charioteering (2100 BCE). Archaeologist Renfrew (2000:44; quoted by Drews) wrote, ââ¬ÅThe mounted warrior nomad horseman does not make his appearance until the end of the second millenniumââ¬Â. Another prominent archaeologist who has been persistently researching the subject for long Kuzmina (2000:122, quoted by Drews:132) wrote ââ¬Åwarrior-horsemen appear in the steppe not in the fourth millennium BC but at the end of the second millennium BCââ¬Â. At least we know that if "Indo-European" invaders from the steppes were entering India - which Patterson and co. of the Haak et al Feb 2015 team admitted could not have happened (and Jones - who had worked on the Mathieson et al March 2015 - essentially repeated in this Jones et al July 2015) because Indic DNA can't be derived from steppe kulturs - Anyway, back to the if statement, because it's just funny: So pretend the steppe theory were still alive: imagine if "Indo-European" invaders from the steppes were invading India on their chariots in 1800 BCE, and Indics knocked them off their chariots using say a pole pushed between the spokes of their chariot wheels (:evil grin, then when the stupid steppists' chariot is incapacitated, they can't rush off by mounting on their horse, because ... they hadn't learned to ride their horsies yet at 1800 BCE. (Meanwhile Hindus are known to have been riding horses in Pirak at 1800 calBCE - and actually earlier, but Pirak is admitted. So Hindus could have run off with the steppists' horses.) How steppists learned to do other horsey stuff like chariot riding with horses I don't know, but it all seems pretty much like Sintashtans were an import into steppe space* if they did have chariots. Imported along with not only their R1aZ93; but curiously also that "Anatolian Neolithic" (farming) genetic component the Srubnaya and Sintashta entrants had, unseen in Yamna, with that last farming component only appearing in the steppe kulturs since Potapovka. I'm pretty sure a culture that has horse-charioteers is a culture that would have known about horse-riding. Steppes did NOT know horse-riding at the dates given to Sintashta culture: 2100-1800 BCE time or long after. They never domesticated the steppe horse. Steppe had to import all their horses. Sintashta culture if it had horse-drawn chariots was clearly intrusive into steppes. For further details see Priyadarshi's site: aryaninvasionmyth.wordpress.com The point of this post was several: + Sintashta "world's first preserved chariot" date of 2026 BCE is considered dubious as only horse bones and artefacts surrounding it have been dated, which have 400 years difference between them - with the earliest of the two dates chosen to present to the public, though the archaeologists don't agree. No idea if the chariot's own date will be different still, had it been dated. Note: Sintashta's "chariot" is often even spouted as the world's oldest chariot, and the steppe was advertised as locus of chariot evolution. Non-spoked wheel chariots already seen in Sumeria at least around 2500 BCE and earlier in IVC (in the latter, the covered chariot in copper is not depicted with wheels at all - as if disassembled - so no idea if its matching wheels would have been spoked or not, but imagery that look like spoked wheels existed in Harappa seals - so can't rule out the possibility for IVC at least). + It is admitted even by IE-ists - e.g. Kuzmina of Steppe PIE theory and Renfew of Anatolian theory, see above - that not until the END of 2nd millennium BCE (e.g until 1200 or 1100 BCE or even later) is there even any evidence of horse-riding anywhere in the steppes. So no mounted warrior-horsemen nomads until then, as they themselves say. + Sintashta (2100-1800BCE) - assuming its inhabitants did have horse-drawn chariots (still can't find google images of their chariots, but I keep finding google images of Chinese horse+chariot burials) - Sintashtans would be imports to the steppe region, because I suspect horse-riding precedes having horse-drawn chariots. (I could be wrong?) But for a nomadic supposed "horse"-people I suspect this rule applies: that they'd learn to ride first before cooking up chariots. + Sintashtans have a genetic component dubbed "Anatolian Neolitic farmer" that was not seen in Yamna, but which started appearing among other steppe kulturs from Potapovka on. Seen in other steppe culture Srubna too. Further Sintashtans, just like Srubnaya inhabitants, suddenly had lots of R1aZ93 (very different from R1b-heavy Yamna etc. Poltavka had a sole R1az94 (a variant of R1az93), may be an early migrant/scout before the outposts started arriving. But otherwise Poltavka IIRC also R1b-heavy) (CORRECTED: Horse bones at Sintashta chariot burial site - which I misremembered as being dated to 2060 BCE - corrected to 2026 BCE.) Unmasking AIT - Husky - 04-01-2016 This post is actually important. Contains yet more proof that AIT-ists (especially steppists) are into serial forgery and serial lying. All in order to claim Vedic religio-civilisation incl. Skt for Europeans. This post is directly related to post 468 (and 467) further above. Proof - "from the horse's mouth", so to speak - that David Anthony is a serial liar and forger like Mair (but isn't absolutely every IE-ist, especially every steppist the same? ALL Indian AITists inclusive). David Anthony - parroted by that other compulsive liar Witzel - claimed that a certain burial in Potapovka was the "antecedent" for the Rig Veda's mention of Vedic Rishi Dadhyanch. In fact, the steppist compulsive liar Anthony claimed that the steppe burial site was probably of the original Dadhyanch himself (thus pretending that a Vedic Rishi was some European. HAHAHA, "sorry", no EHG in Indians. No steppe in Indians. As admitted even by Harvard steppists geneticists now.) Anyway, after both Anthony and Witzel and all their associates screeched loudly that here was proof of "Indo-Aryan" (read Vedic) religion and language originating in the steppes (and repeated by Hindu-baiting internet trolls like one "Neville Ramdeholl" who spammed the story everywhere on the internet, demanding OIT-ists try and answer it), David Anthony has to finally retract it after 2 more honest researchers caught him and his Indo-Europeanist ilk in the lie. And how does Anthony retract it? He tries to pretend he only ever claimed it looked like some unnamed "centaur" and that he had made no more out of the burial than that. From the 2010 reprint of the originally 2007 book "THE HORSE THE WHEEL AND LANGUAGE HOW BRONZE-AGE RIDERS FROM THE EURASIAN STEPPES SHAPED THE MODERN WORLD" by DAVID W. ANTHONY p. 501 "Notes to chapter 15". Footnote 17. (Of course it would be nestled in a footnote tucked away at the end and presented in tiny print of course. Googlebook link Quote:17. In Table 1, sample AA 47803, dated ca. 2900-2600 BCE, was from a human skeleton of the Poltavka period that was later cut through and decapitated by a much deeper Potapovka grave pit. A horse sacrifice above the Potapovka grave is dated by sample AA 47802 to about 1900-1800 BCE. Although they were almost a thousand years apart, they looked, on excavation, like they were deposited together, with the Potapovka horse skull lying above the shoulders of the decapitated Poltavka human. Before dates were obtained on both the horse and the skeleton this deposit was interpreted as a "centaur"ââ¬âa decapitated human with his head replaced by the head of a horse, an important combination in Indo-Iranian mythology. But Nerissa Russell and Eileen Murphy found that both the horse and the human were female, and the dates show that they were buried a thousand years apart. Similarly sample AA-12569 was from an older Poltavka period dog sacrifice found on the ancient ground surface at the edge of Potapovka grave 6 under kurgan 5 at the same cemetery. Older Poltavka sacrifices and graves were discovered under both kurgans 3 and 5 at Potapovka cemetery I. The Poltavka funeral deposits were so disturbed by the Potapovka grave diggers that they remained unrecognized until the radiocarbon dates made us take a second look. The "centaur" possibility was mentioned in Anthony and Vinogradov 1995, five or six years before the two pieces were dated. Of course, it now must be abandoned. That final line becomes more telling in the context of steppist Asko Parpola's unreferenced allusion to it, where the latter merely projects it as a possible mixing of archaeological layers instead of the definite mixing that Anthony was forced to admit to (all because Asko Parpola wants to retain the myth of "[Proto]Indo-Aryan" origins in steppes when even genetics teams have ruled the steppes out as origins not only of PIE but of IA languages. This is what was stated by Parpola, the other steppist fraud (still seen in mid 2015 developing on the now-abandoned steppe origins of "IA") after he had likewise waxed eloquent about Dadhyanch Rishi and the connection to Finno-Ugric etc: Quote:It must be noted, however, that the evidence of the Potapovka grave has been questioned, because of a suspected mixing of the archaeological layers. Anyway, as for Anthony's own statements, note how the retraction comes in a tiny footnote, where he tries to obfuscate that it is about the earlier-claimed supposedly "Dadhyanch" burial site. He is careful to only speaking about having misinterpreted a certain grave as a "centaur" instead. But the reference he provides reveals everything: Turns out it was the very grave Anthony had loudly proclaimed as that of Dadhyanch and as fitting so Perfectly with Vedic religion. (<- Supposedly "Vedic" funerary rites is ALL the "evidence" these steppist frauds ever had. Not counting uni-directional loans into Finno-Ugric/Uralic, which are clearly from Vedic migrants in the steppe zone.) And here's the main body of the text that the footnote was for, p. 386 (Chapter 15): Quote:... Potapovka graves were occasionally situated directly on top of older Poltavka monuments. Some Potapovka graves were dug right through preexisting Poltavka graves, destroying them, as some Sintashta strongholds were built on top of and incorporated older Poltavka settlements. 17 Reading that, would you know that there would be a massive retraction hidden away in footnote 17? And to make sure that no one tries to pretend that the suddenly devolved into anonymous "centaur" concerns anything other than the very burial that Anthony and Witzel and co. had loudly and triumphantly proclaimed was supposedly oh-so-Vedic and straight from the Rig and an antecedent of "derived miscegenated" India, and the very burial of Rishi Dadhya~nch, what's more: here's the direct connection to the alleged "Dadhyanch" burial to the now-turned "centaur", via the very Anthony and Vinogradov 1995 paper which was all that David Anthony would refer to (perhaps he hoped no one would look it up?) - Googlebook The Indo-Aryan Controversy: Evidence and Inference in Indian History By Edwin Francis Bryant, Laurie L. Patton, p.115 Quote:... Note how Anthony's careful understated retraction proves his bent for lying and forgery: he got caught in his deliberate lie by honest researchers Nerissa Russell and Eileen Murphy. But having been caught, he doesn't want to undo the powerful push he gave to the Steppe PIE theory and the powerful meme of "Dadhyanch/Vedic was from the steppes" story. His sneaking around in the retraction is deliberate: in order to leave alive the huge AIT-ist lie concerning an alleged Rig Vedic burial (even declared a burial of ethnically-Hindoo Rishi Dadhyanch himself, turned European of course) in "the steppes". And so wikipedia continues to repeat THE LIE (deliberately too of course, whereas the Russian language page knows better than to repeat this known lie): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potapovka_culture Quote:One burial has the corpse's head replaced with that of a horse, More proof that all AIT-ist are liars. All of them. Without exception. Be they alien or Indian. And, as seen in the previous post, this next is known to be a controversial claim. What I didn't know is that Anthony is the "archaeologist" behind the claim. In other words, the date for "the world's first preserved chariot" in Sintashta given below is probably a fraud, and that's why only the horse bones were dated (see previous post). It is all done in order to claim that the steppes originated the chariots (and then claiming this for Europeans; when the chariot-building, metallurgical part of the Sintashtans were very likely migrants to the region from "South Asia") - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture Quote:Based on its use by Indo-Aryans in Mitanni and Vedic India, its prior absence in the Near East and Harappan India, and its 16thââ¬â17th century BCE attestation at the Andronovo site of Sintashta, Kuzmina (1994) argues that the chariot corroborates the identification of Andronovo as Indo-Iranian. Klejn (1974) and Brentjes (1981) find the Andronovo culture much too late for an Indo-Iranian identification since chariot-using Aryans appear in Mitanni by the 15th to 16th century BCE. However, Anthony & Vinogradov (1995) dated a chariot burial at Krivoye Lake to around 2000 BCE.[17] Reading ^that^ para, it becomes immediately clear why Anthony had to manufactured that date: had to claim chariots for Europoids via the Sintashtan (migrants) at the steppes before anyone else could claim the spoked wheel chariot. Again: the 2000 BCE (2026 BCE) date for a chariot in steppes is considered controversial: As already explained in the previous post, it is very likely that the Sintashta chariot is from 16th century BCE (or 1626 BCE). David Anthony probably manufactured the evidence of the chariot dating, by dating the horse bones instead, since the bones turned out to be 400 years older than the artifacts also found buried at the "chariot burial" site. Remember: the chariot itself remains undated. And the fact that there are 400 years between the different items at the burial site will probably turn out just like Anthony's allegedly "Dadhyanch" forgery and Anthony's alleged "4200-3700 BCE Dereivka horse domestication in the steppes" forgery. He like Mair - and let's throw in Witzel who's also not recanted on the fraud concerning Dadhyanch/Rig Veda he pulled - are all serial forgers, serial liars. Like all AIT-ists especially steppists. This post is actually important. This post contains proof from a primary source that the supposed "Dadhyanch/Rig Vedic" burial in Potapovka was but massive hoax number #3 perpetrated by David Anthony (and Witzel etc). The other two hoaxes being - the supposedly 4200-3700 BCE steppe domestication of the horse - this and other horse-related steppe lies, stories and forgeries long exposed here - the supposedly 2100-2000 BCE (2026 BCE) date of a chariot at Sintashta, which is considered VERY controversial, when only horse bones found 'buried' at the location were dated, while other artifacts also buried at the location were dated to 400 years later. And people are still waiting for/demanding the chariot itself be dated. Of course David Anthony doesn't want to. * Because this hoax was invented to make the steppes the originator of the true chariot. Unmasking AIT - Husky - 04-04-2016 Post 1/n Anthony-Doniger joined forces to make steppes the homeland. Almost feel sorry for Anthony (:not that his own team - headed by the computational biologist from Harvard, Patterson who worked on Haak et al and Mathieson et al and who spoke on behalf of the team - said steppes no longer PIE urheimat and was announcing they'll be looking into whether "IA" entered India from Caucasus next, meaning that Sintashta in steppes can't be PII either. Anyway, looking at Anthony-Doniger's attempts to make the data fit: First, here's their argument for why Sintashta must have been PII (Proto-Indo-Iranian) 'homeland' - wackypedia on "Sintashta culture" Quote:The people of the Sintashta culture are thought to have spoken Proto-Indo-Iranian, the ancestor of the Indo-Iranian language family. This identification is based primarily on similarities between sections of the Rig Veda, an Indian religious text which includes ancient Indo-Iranian hymns recorded in Vedic Sanskrit, with the funerary rituals of the Sintashta culture as revealed by archaeology.[15] Looking up the reference to [15] from David Anthony's book "The Horse, the Wheel ..." (the Spiel) - 2007, reprint 2010 - here's how he argued for PII in Sintashta, with a sample of his "proofs" (he actually doesn't provide all that many, surprisingly): Quote:Similarities between rituals excavated at Sintashta and Arkaim and those described later in the RV have solved, for many, the problem of Indo-Iranian origins.46 The parallels include a reference in RV 10.18 to a kurgan ("let them....bury death in this hill"), a roofed burial chamber supported with posts ("let the fathers hold up this pillar for you"), and with shored walls ("I shore up the earth all around you; let me not injure you as I lay down this clod of earth"). This is a precise description of Sintashta and Potapovka-Filatovka grave pits, which had wooden plank roofs supported by timber posts and plank shoring walls. The above translations are all taken from Doniger: * The translation for RV 10.18 is from Doniger's 2005 book "Rig Veda", conveniently in time for Anthony's 2007 storytelling. * And the translation for RV 1.162 is from Doniger's 1988 "Textual Sources for the Study of Hinduism", conveniently appearing at the end of the 1985-1988 excavations at Potapovka (and the infamous archaeological forgery projected as the burial of the Vedic Rishi Dadhyanch). The Potapovka digs, as seen from Anthony 2007's snippet above is EXACTLY what he's on about. Not surprised the translations matched so miraculously - how did Anthony put it? Oh yeah, "precise description". Yeah well, maybe Doniger worked back to front: she looked at the Potapovka and Sintashta digs and then made the translation of the RV fit. Because compare with the translation credited to that earlier indologist for the same verses: "Rig Veda" Ralph T.H. Griffith, 1896 Bear in mind that his translations are at least independent of Sintashta digs from about a century later, and so that's no reason to be disappointed if it doesn't conform to Sintashta. Comparing with Griffith (1896) translation of RV 10.18: 1. Instead of Doniger-Anthony's "let them....bury death in this hill" as being a reference to a kurgan "of course", Griffith has: "may they bury Death beneath this mountain." so where exactly does it follow we need to conclude kurgans? Does mountain mean kurgan? More importantly from an IEist POV: can it be made to mean kurgan? (And this is ALL the proof for kurgan in the RV that Anthony has been able to mine in Doniger, apparently...) 2. Instead of Doniger-Anthony combine's "I shore up the earth all around you; let me not injure you as I lay down this clod of earth", Griffith: "I stay the earth from thee, while over thee I place this piece of earth. May I be free from injury." which is different in several ways. But again: where does it imply "shoring up walls of earth" around someone for a burial? The way I read it can just mean sprinkling some earth on them. ("piece of earth") Remember: Anthony pointed to this shloka from the RV as "a precise description" of the burials with "shored walls" seen in Sintashta and Potapovka-Filatovka of the steppes. 3. At least the line concerning a pillar is similar in Griffith: "Here let the Fathers keep this pillar firm for thee". However, in both translations, there's mention of just a single pillar. How does that multiply into multiple posts let alone "a roofed burial chamber supported by posts" to match Anthony's Sintashtan dig oh-so-"precisely"? Comparing with Griffith (1896) translation for RV 1.162: - Doniger translation: "Keep the limbs undamaged and place them in the proper pattern. Cut them apart, calling out piece by piece" - Griffith's translation: "Cut ye with skill, so that the parts be flawless, and piece by piece declaring them dissect them." So where's that pattern that's so all important to Anthony? Even a generic pattern would do, though Anthony was off waffling on about - well, this: Anthony's find: "lower legs of horses carefully cut apart at the joints and placed in and over the grave" Anthony is really, really particular in his description, as can be seen. On the other hand, Griffith's translation for the line in RV 1.162 can't even mention a "pattern". Doniger had to supply that. So the question remains: where did Doniger get all these "extra" bits that are 'coincidentally' the very bits that were necessary to make it all 'fit' [=relative term] the fabulous tale of how Sintashta "matches the Vedic descriptions precisely"? Anthony is very grateful to Doniger for her help. No wonder he only uses her translations. I mean, if I was him (i.e. an oryanist=white supremacist wanting to forge a steppe homeland for them oryans into history), then I would go with Doniger's translations too, wouldn't you? Griffith is certainly no help. Early indologists - as detrimental as they were - hold no *candle* to the lying out there among their descendants today. Also, these the next verses in Griffith's translation of RV 1.162 shows that the creature in the Vedic rite is not buried (as in Sintashta) but offered into the fire, which may well turn out to be the most crucial part for all I know, as this sounds like the process by which the sacrificed horse is returned to live on with the Gods: 19 Of Tvaá¹£á¹Âar's Charger there is one dissector,ââ¬âthis is the custom-two there are who guide him. Such of his limbs as I divide in order, these, amid the balls, in fire I offer. 20 Let not thy dear soul burn thee as thou comest, let not the hatchet linger in thy body. Let not a greedy clumsy immolator, missing the joints, mangle thy limbs unduly. 21 No, here thou diest not, thou art not injured: by easy paths unto the Gods thou goest. Both Bays, both spotted mares are now thy fellows, and to the ass's pole is yoked the Charger. Then again, steppists would argue - or would have argued, before Patterson's announcement through to Jones et al's 2015 paper insinuating Maykop (3700-3000 BCE) as next potential IA locus - that there was no IE or IA "fire cult and cremation" before the Fedorovo steppe kultur of 1500-1300 BCE, so that the the original, pre-Fedorovo steppe Rig VediK KKKultur was entirely about burials, etc: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture Quote:At least four sub-cultures of the Andronovo horizon have been distinguished, during which the culture expands towards the south and the east: But I thought it was nice to know that so much of Andronovo culture - post Sintashta at any rate - was quite Siberian qua ethnicity. Yay for the Siberians: Siberians 1. Europods 0. It's like those 2 E-Asian-specific Scythians found at 2500 ybp: E-Asians 2. Europods 1. |