Progressive Duplicity and moral policing

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Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Husky - 02-20-2009

http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=8232
QUOTEWill Government file affidavit to ordain Women Bishops?
18/02/2009 15:31:22Â

Church council against move to ordain women bishops
Courtesy:www.kaumudi.com

KOTTAYAM: The recent move by the Church of England to allow ordination of women as bishops has caused ripples among traditionalists in the Indian church especially in this region, the seat of Syrian Christianity, with top religious leaders opposing it tooth and nail, asserting that episcopacy was not the job of the fair sex.

As the historic decision of the Anglican Church, the most influential Protestant congregation, created a vertical split in the Anglican communion in Britain and rest of the world, top church leaders here lost no time in denouncing the move.

"It is not a question of faith but tradition. Christianity extends all considerations to women. Women are not inferior as they are equal before God," Council of Christian Churches of India (CCCI) President Arch Bishop Stephen Vattappara told reporters.

"Equality does not mean that mother becomes a father as both have distinct features and functions and should be maintained as such," he said here.

The CCCI, formed in 1973 as the Indian arm of the International Council of Christian Churches and comprising Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian and Anglican orthodox churches, declared its stand on the issue at its three-day national assembly held in Kurici near here recently.

*********************************************************************

HK Comments

When it comes to Young Women's entry Sabarimala Pilgrimage - Political Leaders, Cultural Leaders , Women Activist, Atheist, Media, Liberalist -All acts together to sensationalize it

Church Sponsored Media Especially Malayala Manorama and Deepika was in forefront in creating controversies with regard to Sabarimala Pilgrimage.But when it is their own internal matter they know very well how to black it out.And now Thanks to SNC Lavlin - The Abhaya Episode also have been wiped out from the front pages.

When it comes to the matter of Church - They all have a ready made answer - It is not a question of faith but tradition

Due to illfate of Hindus Kerala Government lead by Atheistcan even submit affidavit requesting Young Women's entry to Sabarimala questioning both faith and tradition, Yes as it is of Hindus any passerby can comment and question it.

EDITED: Corrected link

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Shambhu - 02-21-2009

From an Offstumped comment:

I might be silly to post it here but anyway, one question about the Pub attack, the witness one pawan shetty hailed as a hero for putting up sone resistance in his own wordsâ¦. Mr. Shetty was in the parking lot of the pub just before the attack took place. He was âstunnedâ by the preparations for the event. âCameramen came around 15 minutes before the attack began. They positioned themselves at strategic points,â he says. âSomeone shouted âactionâ the moment the mob entered the compound.â

Why the last sentence is not highlighted âACTIONâ by anyone at all, the next para diverts the attention by making him a former bajrang dal member who has reformed now.

-------------------

See the newest topic, "Political controversy.."
Its a comment by BV Swagath. Number 82. I cant see the first digit, might be 62...

All of the above is a cut paste from his/her comment. Nothing mine..

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Husky - 02-21-2009

Shambhu will you add to your above post the offstumped link as well as put the text that you are quoting in a QUOTE block section (so I can tell it apart from your own writing)? I'd be grateful.
What source did they get it from, news? Any links?

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Shambhu - 02-21-2009

Edited!

No source mentioned in teh comment...

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Pandyan - 02-21-2009

QUOTE(Shambhu @ Feb 20 2009, 10:27 PM)Edited!

No source mentioned in teh comment...
[right][snapback]94787[/snapback][/right]

The original source itself got deleted? I mean the comment in the source.

This is a very organized production. Tehelka, the master of doing fake "busts" such as this is certainly the organizer of the entire thing.

It is no wonder then, that this Nisha Susan (journalist of Tehelka) is prodding people on to go vote etc. What does voting have to do with this so-called attack or their ridiculous pink chaddi movement? Why is she focusing so much attention on that?

As Viren has already demonstrated, there were far more serious attacks on women by Muslims and other groups. Yet only this "attack" gets attention?

This is an attempt by Tehelka to cover up Muslim terrorism and failures (or participation rather) of Congress in preventing Islamic and XTIAN terrorism.

BJP old geezers as usual are nutless and standing by like cuckolds.

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Shambhu - 02-21-2009

Sandeepweb.com also has a write-up on the Pink Chaddi thing. In the comments, a couple pub-going women have attempted to defend the panty campaign. Lots of people have asked these pub-women where they were when Taslima Nasreen was being thrown around etc. As is to be expected, no real answers.

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Husky - 02-21-2009

Thanks for updating #62, Shambhu.

Here you go:

http://www.hindu.com/2009/01/28/stories/2009012859801400.htm
QUOTEWednesday, Jan 28, 2009
The man who took on the mob

Sudipto Mondal

Shetty, an ex-Bajrang Dal member, says he is now reformed

Pawan Kumar Shetty

MANGALORE: âIt is not that I am very brave or some sort of a hero,â says 24-year-old Pawan Kumar Shetty who single-handedly took on the over 40-strong Sri Ram Sene brigade when it attacked women guests at the Amnesia Pub here last Saturday.

But one of the women he saved differs. âPawan was the hero of the day. He was one of the few human beings in that place full of animals.â

She said the mob had not expected any resistance. âSo, when Pawan stood up to them they were actually scared for a moment. After all, every bully is a coward.â

Recalling the events, Mr. Shetty explains: âI could not bear to stand and watch. I just ran into the attacking mob to get their attention away from the girls.â

Video clippings show the entire mob turning its fury on Mr. Shetty, allowing the women to escape.

There were over a hundred bystanders, âbut not one of them did anything to prevent the attack,â he recounts. Had the people united against the attackers, they could have easily chased them away. âEveryone was falling over one another to get a glimpse of the action. It was like a cricket match.â

Mr. Shetty was in the parking lot of the pub just before the attack took place. He was âstunnedâ by the preparations for the event. âCameramen came around 15 minutes before the attack began. They positioned themselves at strategic points,â he says. âSomeone shouted âactionâ the moment the mob entered the compound.â

Mr. Shetty says he was a member of the Bajrang Dal till a few weeks ago. âBut now I am reformedâ¦ I cannot hate anybody. That is why I quit the Bajrang Dal.â

He says the pub attack opened his eyes and reinforced his conviction that violence has no place in society. âI see no difference between the Taliban and these people. They say they are doing all this in the name of God. Which God has asked them to molest women?â Why doesn't Shetty add 2 and 2 together? The entire thing was obviously staged, except that he wasn't part of the script. Of course *he* (Hindu, goodnaturedly gullible though he is) was shocked at these people beating up women. But it wasn't Hindus who did it.

Well, that's assuming Shetty wasn't just hired and paid for this publicity-stunt. But then why would anyone who was in on the event blunder to the Chindu about how the drama was so obviously orchestrated?

QUOTEThe original source itself got deleted? I mean the comment in the source.Pandyan, I think Shambhu meant he edited his post 62 above to add as much of the extra data requested as he could, but that there was no source link given in the offstumped comment that he could add to it.

QUOTEThis is an attempt by Tehelka to cover up Muslim terrorism and failures (or participation rather) of Congress in preventing Islamic and XTIAN terrorism.That is one thing. But it is also that Karnataka - the only S state with a nationalist Hindu government, the BJP - must be convinced into voting the BJP out. So the christoterrorists (NDTV, Congress) setup an event that is distasteful to Hindus, blame it on 'Hindutva' and then repeat it over and over in the media to scare Hindus into not voting for BJP again.

It's christoterrorism. It's using very crude methods but apparently they work. And the way you can see that these christolies are working is by considering how Pawan Shetty (above) has seen the cameramen at the scene even before the show went down and hearing them shout action when the attackers arrived and still he did not make sense of what it all meant.
Then what can one expect of the general Hindus who merely got injected with the christolies via NDTV and the other christochannels repeating their staged show over and over and saying it was carried out by Hindus?

ADDED:
Oh and get this, even after reading the exact same Chindu article pasted above, the following mangalorean catholic (apparently almost as illiterate as jeebus' own non-existent apostles were famed for being) reads into it that Shetty had confessed that he was part of the mob meant to attack!
Whereas Shetty only says that he was a member of the Bajrang Dal until recently (and even that statement could just be one of those "I have seen the light" testimonies that christianism is so fond of - they regularly have christians in S Korea who publicly declare they were previously Buddhist monks but have now "found jeebus"):
groups.yahoo.com/group/MangaloreanCatholics/message/12775
QUOTERe: Fearless Pawan Shetty-The man who took on the mob

Let us hope the end justifies the means.
In his own words he says he was a member of the group which attacked the girls. he also says the camera men positioned themselves to take the pictures and shouted action. what does that mean some sort of rehearsal for an action movie and Pavan is the hero????
hope the real truth of the matter comes
let us hope his intentions were good.
in union with the divine word,
Fr. Juze Vaz svd
Christian lies are always the same. And the sheep have the greatest faith in them. So great that they will even read into things whatever their faith tells them to read. Apparently "Bajrang Dal" spells "Ramasene" to christonitwits. That's what you get from going to christoschools.
And I thought I couldn't read properly, but christian pseudo-literacy is a whole new world.

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Husky - 02-21-2009

^ updated

QUOTE(Shambhu @ Feb 21 2009, 09:06 AM)Sandeepweb.com also has a write-up on the Pink Chaddi thing. In the comments, a couple pub-going women have attempted to defend the panty campaign. Lots of people have asked these pub-women where they were when Taslima Nasreen was being thrown around etc. As is to be expected, no real answers.[right][snapback]94791[/snapback][/right]Shambhu, will you consider pasting the Chindu article from the previous post in Sandeepweb, as well as the earlier Chindu article where a victimised witness also saw the cameramen arriving before the attackers?

Can just state how this shows the drama was obviously staged by the christogovt jealous of BJP being in power, with the help of the very christo NDTV.
And now's the chance to ask the twatty women defending the underwear campaign to please direct their tacky pink underpants to NDTV and the real goons behind this. And you may want to tell them to stop alleging it was "Hindus", when such defamation tactics are a known practise of christos in countries they are trying to convert, like in Sri Lanka:
http://www.christianaggression.org/item_di...S&id=1113838580
QUOTEWho Created Religious Disharmony in Sri Lanka? 
[...]
the disharmony began when they (Christians) paid men to don the yellow robe and misbehave in society to create a rift between the Buddhist temples and the Buddhists by getting these "fake Buddhist monks" to go and purchase liquor from the liquor bars, to go into meat stalls and super markets and purchase meat and fish for everyone to see, to go into restaurants after 12 noon and order food and partake of it, to be seen by others etc;
the disharmony began when they use young couples to go into village temples in the night requesting shelter from the temple monk (on the excuse that they were travelling far) and in a short while the male would leave the female alone in the temple, and go out- within minutes, the girl would ring the temple bell and inform the villagers that the monk had tried to molest her( the purpose is to bring disrepute to innocent monks);

Apparently there's some petition going, to save women at the pub from being attacked by (hired christoterrorists dressed up as) "Hindus". It's at Rediff, where one of the comments mentions the waiting-and-ready-to-shoot media at the Mangalore pub showdown - and still people are not clicking:
http://www.rediff.com/getahead/petition.html
QUOTEOnline PetitionThu Jan 29 16:34:30 2009
Name:jps
City:udupi

Petition Confused

ir, the present campaign only highlights the role MEDIA is playing in highlighting the non-issues. as i understand the events were as follows : (a) a pub was admitting women in along with male escorts and permitting them to booze and dance, though dance in bars is prohibited in Karnataka (b) some 'goons' got wind of it and planned the attack. to gain publicity, journalists were informed in advance. Â© the goons gained entry into the pub, drove the people away, misbehaved with the women and beat them up. (d) the events were captured in camera by the journalists present on the spot and beamed to the nation (e) all channels / newspapers / online media have lost no time in questioning both the purpose of the attack, the necessity for attacking helpless women. they are also questioning WHAT THE ONLOOKERS WERE DOING when the beating was going on and are APPLAUDING PAWAN SHETTY AS THE SOLE HERO. This raises a question mark over the sincerity of the the MEDIA itself. It is clear that MEDIA had advance information of the events which were to unfold. if MEDIA was sincere about protecting the women, why it did not inform the police ? The police would have come in time and prevented what were to happen? MEDIA wants some events to survive. events are the bread and butter of the media. it wants some unfortunate events to take place, records them and beams them to the nation and harps on that for several days / weeks so that its columns / news slots can be filled. this has been the conduct of the media earlier during mumbai terrorists attack and the death of wife of a karnataka MLA as the bar owner and the chief perpetrator were both from the same town / community we can easily suspect that it has to do more with personal rivalry / hafta for allowing illegal operations - rather than any ideology. it may be noted that a person involved in yellow journalism had arranged a demonstation at MANIPAL a couple of years ago in front of a bar / dancing club - because the owners refused to meet his demands for money adequately. later he was murdered when the demonstration was in progress. it is high time, journalists start thinking that they are citizens first. the priority should be on preventing things from happening rather than doing post-mortem. if journalists think that their duty is journalism and reporting and nothing else, they should accept that every other individual of this country also has a right to have a narrow-minded view of things and his role - and STOP QUESTIONING OTHERS, POLICE, GOVERNMENT, ONLOOKERS ETC.

Ooh and look at this comment at the rediff link, by a faithful:
QUOTEOnline PetitionWed Jan 28 15:57:06 2009
Name:SM Hussain
City:Hyderabad
Petition:I was shocked to see on TV that young women customers at a pub were attacked without provocation by well-built thugs. The defenceless young women were hit repeatedly on the head until they fell to the ground. These terrorists should be arrested and punished. I felt sad for the young women. At the same time I applaud the cameraman who courageously filmed the shocking scene so that the rest of the country could see the atrocities on the women. These are the Taliban of India, who should be suppressed immediately. The beauty of India is that it is a free and democratic country where all are treated equally.Slumdog was also staged and filmed on camera. Maybe it is reality tooooo. <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='dry.gif' />
Where are these people's brains? Fried from too much convent-madrasa eddycation.

EDITED: to remove my own mean comments on the preposterous pink underwear campaign.

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Husky - 02-22-2009

And Sandhya clears up any remaining doubts on Ashwini's suicide.

See the original for Sandhya's own highlighting.
http://vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=399
QUOTEPursuing Sex: should we scrap the Sharda Act?Â Â Â
Sandhya Jain
22 Feb 2009

Is it time to scrap the Sharda Act? Once hailed as one of modern Indiaâs most progressive legislations, the Sharda Act and its associated objectives are being currently undermined by an insidious secular conspiracy that promotes free adolescent sex in the name of individual liberty. Modern India will have to take a call on the social and cultural implications of this sexual advocacy that undermines a civilisational ethic as well as a century of social reform.

Critical to this debate are the circumstances of Ashwiniâs suicide on 11 February 2009. A 16-year-old schoolgirl in Class IX, Aikala High School, Kinnigoli, Mangalore, Karnataka, she committed suicide after being allegedly humiliated by suspected Bajrang Dal activists who grabbed her, her friend Mahadevi, boyfriend Salim and his friend Rafeeq, and handed them over to the Maroor police station on 10 February 2009.

The police called her parents and gave Ashwini into their custody. Whatever subsequently transpired between her and her family is unknown, but Ashwini committed suicide at her Mulki residence the next day. Her father Jaya Moolya gave an unequivocal statement that he did not hold the activists who took her to the police station responsible for her death; the Karnataka police arrested Salim on allegations of rape levelled by Ashwiniâs family.

With a major news channel like NDTV playing up the communal angle which is only incidental to the tragedy, several questions arise that need clear articulation.

Given that Ashwini was a minor and that the Mangalore Police have slapped charges of rape against Salim on a complaint from Ashwiniâs mother (Section 376 and 305, IPC, for luring and raping the girl), it may be safe to assume that Ashwini confessed to sexual relations with the accused before she committed suicide. Even assuming that the sex was consensual and that charges of sexual blackmail are exaggerated, the fact remains that under existing law, sex with a minor is STATUTORY RAPE.

NDTV, which highlighted the incident in virtually every prime-time bulletin for days, must answer the question â should Salim be allowed to get away from the charges of statutory rape and moral responsibility for Ashwiniâs suicide ONLY because he is a Muslim?

The channel launched a veritable crusade to get the social activists who handed over the couple to the police arrested. Mangalore SP Sateesh Kumarâs warning that this could inflame communal passions only whetted the channelâs appetite for action in the matter. Writer Sara Aboobacker and womenâs rights activist Flavia Agnes jumped into the fray to blame the BJP government for such incidents, which have allegedly made women feel unsafe.
(Why does no one ever why wonder why there are always vocal christoterrorists behind every orchestrated 'evil Hindootva' cry? Nisha susan, flavia agnes and well - sara aboobacker sounds a bit more islami than christian. But it's the same thing. Christians lead and islamicommunists follow.)

It is disgraceful that womenâs activists (incidentally both non-Hindu) see nothing abnormal or discordant in a 16-girl-old schoolgirl (regardless of community affiliations) going out of the way to meet a 28-year-old man, Salim (regardless of religious affinity).

What is at stake here is a deliberate de-sacralising of the Hindu marriage sacrament, coupled with a century of social reform, that linked the drive for education for the girl child with the attempt to defer the age of marriage for both boys and girls. It is pertinent that in the Hindu tradition, brahmacharya (celibacy) is enjoined upon the student (male or female) to keep the mind disciplined for the reception of knowledge; this stage culminates in the grihasta ashram (householder stage) when the citizen assumes his adult responsibilities towards family and society. The Vedic people were comfortable with relatively late marriage for girls (16 years of age), but disapproved strongly of pre-marital sex.

It is in this background that, under the leadership of enlightened Indians, the Widow Re-marriage Act was passed in 1856. In 1929 came the Child Marriage Restraint Act (Sharda Act), which fixed the minimum age of marriage for girls and boys at 14 and 18 respectively. The post-independence Hindu Marriage Act of 1955 went further and raised the marriage bar for girls to 15 (boys remained 18), made it mandatory that neither party had a living spouse at the time of marriage (thus making monogamy the law), and permitted divorce under certain conditions. (The minimum age of marriage is now 18 years for girls, and a debate is current on whether the legal age of 21 years for boys should be brought down to 18 years).

The Special Marriage Act of 1954 legalized unions between spouses of different religions, provided that the girl was 18 years of age and the boy 21.

Hindus did not take to the Sharda Act with alacrity, given profound historical causes for child marriage, which also came to be sanctified by tradition. Post-independence, a host of de-cultured activists who have become louder with each passing decade, have berated the Hindu community for practicing child marriage in rural areas, and gone so far as to demand the prosecution of the boyâs family for slavery (of the child bride, who is believed to be doubling up as free labour) and sexual abuse. Rajasthan is particularly vulnerable to âjholawallahâ attention, and the annual festival of Akha Teej attracts activists like moths to a flame.

Undeniably, child marriage lacks informed consent because of the immature age of the partners, and early childbirth risks both foetal and maternal life and health. Indian law-makers disapproved of sexual activity at an impressionable age and listed it as child sexual abuse under Sections 377 and 376 of the Indian Penal Code.

As recently as May 2003, the Supreme Court issued notices to the Centre and 10 States on a Public Interest Litigation to prevent the widespread practice of child marriages which resulted in girl child servitude and child sexual abuse and rape by the boyâs household. A Bench comprising then Chief Justice V.N. Khare, Justice S.B. Sinha and Justice A.R. Lakshmanan sent notices to Chattisgarh; Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, Bihar, Jharkhand, Orissa, Andhra Pradesh, Maharashtra, Uttar Pradesh and Karnataka
[http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2003/05/07/stories/2003050703131300.htm]

Even without the benefit of statistics, it is safe to assume that the ground reality in all these states is pretty much the same in February 2009 as it was when notices were issued.

What HAS changed is the ascent to power in New Delhi, in May 2004, of the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance coalition under the chairmanship of Ms. Sonia Gandhi, an Italian-born Roman Catholic.

The advent of the UPA gave a thrust to anti-Hindu activism in the country, most notable in blatant cultural assaults upon the Hindu ethos through vulgar forms of sex education in schools, which saw teachers rise across the country and refuse to teach such suggestive lessons to young adolescents. There has been a visible curtailment of national holidays associated with traditional Hindu festivals, and an attempt to decimate the family by giving equal rights to live-in partners.

More pernicious is the attempt to enshrine St. Valentineâs Day â a Christian festival for married couples/sexual partners â among impressionable Indian (read Hindu) youth, with the Centre (vide Home Minister Chidambaram) literally snarling at States (read Karnataka) where social activists might try to oppose these vacuous celebrations.

Accompanying this vulgarity was Minister of State for Women and Child Development Renuka Choudharyâs disgraceful call for a âPub Bharo Andolanâ in support of young women drinking at all hours of the day in unlicensed bars! In a country where even at the time of writing, women in the villages of south Gujarat are storming and destroying country-liquor breweries after witnessing their alcoholic husbands die a painful death, the Minister for Women and Child Development peddles alcohol as a way of life for young women! She has got away with it only because of the Western Christian background of the Congress president
[http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Surat-Liquor-widows-smash-dens/articleshow/4146555.cms]

Apologists pretend that St. Valentineâs Day is being promoted by a secular (sic) Market, and is no longer a Christian festival (whatever that means). Why doesnât the ubiquitous Market organise a Market Badhao Andolan to promote its legitimate activity â to make money? And why, in recognition of the rising social backlash, did the Congress party field Mr. Rahul Gandhi, Amethi MP and son of Ms. Sonia Gandhi, to say that he did not think much of Valentineâs Day personally, but those who did should be allowed to observe it in peace? Naturally the supine media did not ask any Valentine Day couple if they even knew the first thing about St. Valentine â so alien is the man and the festival from Indian tradition.

Sixty years of State-sponsored secularism have brought us to this pass â parents have lost the ability to transmit cultural, religious, and even common social and civil virtues to the youth, because the atmosphere is so loaded against this. The arid secularism of school, college, and public sphere have connived to create a barrenness in the souls of Hindu youth (Muslims are protected by their policy of socio-cultural apartheid), and missionaries aided by the State have moved in gleefully to promote St. Valentineâs â best exemplified by the undignified Pink Chaddis beamed into every home by an obliging television â in the name of individual freedom.

We are sought to be silenced with the admonition that Valentineâs is NOW only Commerce and not Christianity. Well, Christianity is so closely linked with Commerce (not to mention Sex, if one goes by the sheer number of sexual abuse cases against the clergy in Western countries), that it is difficult to separate the two. Commerce, like Secularism, is only a mask of the Christian god, a truth Islam has been quite savvy about; Hindus would do well to wake up to the cancerous threat to Indiaâs civilisational ethos.

A pointer to the dangerous direction in which we may be heading comes from the current sensational story of 13-year-old Alfie Patten, who hit the front-page of London tabloids because his baby girl from 15-year-old girlfriend Chantelle Steadman, is being claimed by two other adolescents as their own! Alfieâs baby face, with not a trace of adolescent facial hair, has shocked even his over-sexed nation to introspect whether âmore sexual educationâ is really the answer to juvenile sexual activity.

Were a Rajasthani patriarch to suggest that in cases like Ashwiniâs, where the girl child is patently disinterested in studies, she may be married off and allowed to indulge her desires in a socially sanctified and dignified manner, there would be an uproar about the sexual abuse of minors, free domestic labour, female backwardness because of lack of educationâ¦.
(Yes, very interesting double standard: "'Child marriages' are EVIL HINDOOISM, but promoting/goading minors into having sexual relations before they feel ready is LIBERAL SECULARISM."
Christianism is so vapid, it amazes me how people fall for this junk.)

But you cannot have it both ways â girls and boys wishing to pursue their studies must function with restraint, respecting the norms of the society in which they live. Sex is as much an emotional as a physical activity; bad sexual experiences can have a ravaging impact on the psyche. Contraception, if used, protects only against conception, and does not touch the soul.

If sex was only about individual choice, young Ashwini would not have committed suicide. She did so out of a residual sense of shame and a belated recognition that in Hindu tradition, the family and not the individual is the smallest social unit. The atomization of the family, achieved by the Christian tradition, brought her to a dead-end.

The author is Editor, www.vijayvaani.com

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Shambhu - 02-25-2009

Re teh Hindu links..done

By the way, Sandeepweb.com has "My Op_Ed in Pioneer.." story.

Comment 30, talking about Renuka Choudhary:

"One such incident that bought to Light The Honesty of this Lady has happened real close to me, One of My sub-ordinateâs Young Daugher(who was apparently very beautiful) was kidnapped by His Landlordâs wife & sold(perhaps I Guess) elsewhere. I told this poor man to approach Renuka for helpw,when all the efforts to persuade Police were in vain. She openly remarked(Renuka)That poor men should not have beautiful Daughters. tee hee, This has happened in 2007-08 August."

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Husky - 02-28-2009

^ Thanks Shambu. I didn't understand what you meant earlier (with the line "Re teh Hindu links..done").

People have been wasting time trying to understand Raynuka Chowtree. The following shows clearly that her mum was binge-drinking when carrying the nukeray and *that* is why raynuka turned out to be inflicted with such a debilitating mental disease, can't think straight and pronounces inane statements like Pub Baabaaa Baabaaa:

http://vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=403
QUOTEDo we want future generations retarded?Â
Vivek Arya
27 Feb 2009

Latest research published in the December 2008 issue of Indian Pediatrics deals with foetal alcohol spectrum disorders, or FASD. This is a disorder commonly found among women who consume alcohol during pregnancy, which affects their offspring in terms of growth retardation, intellectual dysfunction, and behavioural problems.

Alcohol is found to be neuro-toxic to the brain during the development stage of the foetus. Behavioural problems in children with FASD start at an early age and progress to adulthood. Recent research has established that even though fewer women drink alcohol than men, the bio-medical and other consequences of womenâs alcohol use may be greater than that of men for the same amount of alcohol consumed. In general population studies throughout the world, as compared to women, men are more frequent drinkers, consume more alcohol, and cause more problems by doing so.

However, in the US, approximately 60% of adult women drink alcohol, at least occasionally. The rates of drinking and heavy drinking tend to be highest among young women, and decline steadily with age. In the United States, Britain, and Canada, 20%-32% of pregnant women drink, and in some European countries the rate is higher, exceeding 50%.

In a study in the Western Cape Province of South Africa, 34% of urban women and 46%-51% of rural women drank during pregnancy. Their drinking pattern was characterized by heavy binge drinking on weekends, with no reduction of use during pregnancy.

Maternal drinking during pregnancy varies among and within populations throughout the world. Both animal and human studies have reported that binge drinking is more harmful to the developing brain than the regular pattern. According to the âGender, Alcohol and Culture: an International Studyâ (GENACIS) in India, 5.8% of all female respondents reported drinking alcohol at least once in the last 12 months.

In India, alcohol use is more prevalent in tribal women, tea plantation workers, and women of lower socio-economic status, commercial sex workers and to a limited rich upper crust, and is not favoured by women from the middle or upper socio-economic classes. In these high-risk groups, the prevalence is around 28-48%.

In England in the 1700s, several physician groups described children of alcoholics as âweak, feeble, and distempered,â and âborn weak and sillyâ¦ shrivelled and old.â The first good description on the adverse effects of alcohol at birth was by Sullivan in 1899, where he described the offspring of alcoholic women imprisoned in England. He concluded that these women produced children characterized by a pattern of birth defects of increasing severity and higher rates of miscarriage; there was a tendency for healthier infants to be born when gestation occurred in prison (thus indicating abstinence as prevention). These children were not productive members of society as they aged, and male alcoholism was not a factor in producing the abnormalities.

In 1968, Lemoine of France reintroduced the apparently ignored, unrecognized, or misunderstood concept of adverse outcomes resulting from foetal alcohol exposure. He studied more than 100 children of women who drank heavily and documented many of the physical and behavioural patterns among those children, but did not present any definitive diagnostic criteria for diagnosing FASD. Later, in 1973, Jones, Smith, and colleagues were the first to describe in detail the consistent pattern of malformations among children of mothers with significant pre-natal alcohol intake and to provide diagnostic criteria for the condition they termed FASD.

Apart from neurological problems like lower IQ, achievement deficits, learning problems, deficits in memory, attention, visual-spatial abilities, declarative learning, processing speed as well as language and motor delays, babies suffering from FASD may also have Cardiac defects like Atrial septal defects, aberrant great vessels, ventricular septal defects, tetralogy of Fallot; Renal defects like Aplastic kidneys, dysplastic kidneys, ureteral duplications, hypoplastic kidneys, hydronephrosis, horseshoe kidneys; Ocular defects like Strabismus, refractive problems and hearing loss.

Why is this condition important?

FASD is the one of the preventable causes of intellectual dysfunction and behavioural problems. Alcohol prevalence is an increasing trend among women. Most women who come to doctors will not spontaneously reveal their history of alcohol consumption. Hence efforts should be made to elicit substance use history in women, especially in those who are in the reproductive age and mothers of children who have intellectual and behavioural problems.

As there is no known safe amount of alcohol consumption during pregnancy, the AAP (American Academy of Pediatrics) recommends abstinence from alcohol for women who are pregnant, or who are planning a pregnancy.

Renuka Chaudhary, well-known politician, is giving the completely opposite message. She wants to open the doors of pubs in the name of freedom and rights for women. Will she like to have our future generation suffer from low IQ and mental retardation? The general public can see how politicians harm us for political scores.
(The answer is Yes: Yes, Raynuka does want everyone else's mental faculties to become as degraded/non-existent as her own. Out of jealousy that other people were not brought to the same level as her own hopelessly debilitated state, she is encouraging pubbing in the hope that at least future generations will never exceed her abilities, so that she can be remembered but as Another Frivolity Among Frivolous rather than what she is now: Uniquely Grotesque, A Freak. There's some prize for that isn't there? A Monstrosity award? Yes?)

The author is Senior Resident, Deptt. of Paediatrics, St. Stephen Hospital, Delhi 
Hey, here's a thought: I say Hindus do nothing. Pubbing women/those prone to be led by Fashion into alien lifestyles (i.e. pseculars) will extinct their Thoughtless Genes on their own, as they can only produce increasingly unviable offspring. Let Nature take its course. And good riddance to Willful Stupidity, I say (what else do you call bequeathing preventable disorders to the next generation?).

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Husky - 02-28-2009

http://vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=385
QUOTERenuka Ma, Baba and Baby â Let's Pub
Radha Rajan
11 Feb 2009A really 'deep' comment on the above article:
QUOTEÂ Dear Radha Rajanji A first reading was good and hilarious. But a second and third reading made me feel we are watering down a serious issue of control of women under the guise of culture and religion. It is a dangerous path, especially for women who have never been successful in breaking these shackles. While Renuka's comments were tasteless, the point we have missed by a mile seems to be the urge to control women's sexuality.Â Â
Â SreeramÂ
Â 25 Feb 2009
<Snipped my opinionating>

ADDED:
I think Sandhya's article at Pursuing Sex: should we scrap the Sharda Act? - although not meant as a response - contains the only sort of 'answers' that "Sreeram" (above) will ever get.
His comment brings in arguments from the christowestern sphere into the Dharmic Indian context where it does not belong at all. There is no "urge to control people's sexuality" and there is no "controlling people under the guise of (or in actuality through) religioculture" in Natural Traditions. Sreeram is regurgitating arguments that people validly had against christianism (and that also apply to islamism) against the Dharmic way of life. Sreeram's comment is like having to hear an Indian lecture Hindus on how we shouldn't burn witches. <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' />

Dharmic and all Natural Traditionalist people have, in general, always tended to be self-regulated - exceptions there have been (as there were in Rome), but I speak of the general case.
It's only the alien and alienating ideas that christowesternisation is trying its best to introduce into India that is creating confused individuals who start thinking and behaving christowestern but doing so in a Natural Traditionalist society.
The patterned way of thinking that's been instilled into them is entirely out of place, so their subsequent christowestern behaviour (and their christowestern arguments for it) is also entirely out of place.

http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplay...cle.aspx?id=399
QUOTECommerce, like Secularism, is only a mask of the Christian god, a truth Islam has been quite savvy about; Hindus would do well to wake up to the cancerous threat to Indiaâs civilisational ethos.
...
in Hindu tradition, the family and not the individual is the smallest social unit. The atomization of the family, achieved by the Christian tradition,Sandhya's observations are applicable to more than the Hindu tradition, since the family and then community are also the basic social units in traditional Native American society, in Shinto, Taoist and Mahayana Buddhist societies and in traditional rural Hellenic societies and actually in general Natural Traditionalist society. In condemning unchecked and juvenile behaviour in Rome, Julian, Aurelius and other pagan Emperors were expressing the same sentiments as Hindus are now.

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Husky - 05-31-2009

Oh look! It's the Second Coming! (Of the christobrits I mean, not jeebus. Easy on.)

QUOTEMonday, May 11, 2009
how UPA diverted food crops to alcohol-making
may 10th, 2009

yes, of course. this is why they just luuuuuv nisha susan and the other harpies of the federation of loose women of india.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Shahryar

http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.p...&pid=288&page=2
(Actually, the link's moved here:
http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.p...&pid=289&page=2
)

May 03,2009

UPA created food scarcity by promoting whisky
Guess why they market pub culture
By Naresh Minocha
Posted by nizhal yoddha at 5/11/2009 12:07:00 AM
2 comments:

AGworld said...
Â Â This post has been removed by the author.
Â Â 5/11/2009 5:23 AM
AGworld said...

Â Â Frankly this sounds like a storm in a teacup.
Â Â India has granaries bursting with wheat that'd rot.

Â Â In any case, india is more at risk from appalling infrastructure and government interference in agiculture than due to the conversion of a few hundred tons into alcohol!

Â Â I do share the disdain for the new susan on the block. She has a good role model in the older susan!
Â Â 5/11/2009 5:26 AM

Post a Comment
http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.p...&pid=289&page=2
QUOTEUPA created food scarcity by promoting whisky
Guess why they market pub culture
By Naresh Minocha

The race for setting up grain-based distilleries and for conversion of molasses-based ones into dual-mode ones is gaining momentum due to grant of lucrative financial incentives by states such as Maharashtra and Uttar Pradesh.
* * *

The UPA has relied on the soft option of imports to bridge food security as it has done in the case of energy security by entering into a nuclear deal with the United States.

With molasses-based distilleries gradually modifying themselves to use grain as stand-by raw material, the grain markets would come under strain as and when sugarcane production falls as is happening at present.
* * *

The usage of grain as raw material for production of alcohol is set to pick up in a big way due to massive surge in demand triggered by governmentâs programme for blending petrol with ethanol.

The UPA government has back-stabbed the aam aadami in the area of food security. It has done so by granting approvals to setting up about two dozen grain-based distilleries over the last three years. Several more approvals are in the pipeline.

These projects are likely to gobble up a few million tonnes of wheat, rice, corn and other grain every year. An aam aadami can check the authenticity of these approvals from the Ministry of Environment and Forests (see table).

The race for setting up grain-based distilleries and for conversion of molasses-based ones into dual-mode ones is gaining momentum due to grant of lucrative financial incentives by states such as Maharashtra and Uttar Pradesh.

These upcoming grain-based distilleries would produce alcohol/ethanol for all applicationsâfor use in the manufacture of liquor, for use as a petrol additive and for various industrial applications.

One of such distillery companies named SVP Industries Limited has the honesty to make a public disclosure that it would use atta (wheat flour) as the raw material for the distillery.

Even Vijay Mallya-controlled United Spirits Limited would use 150-160 tonnes/day of âgrain flourâ at its proposed grain/molasses-based distillery at Meerut in UP as revealed by governmentâs approval dated February 5, 2008.

The Congress Party has the audacity to turn a blind eye to these chilling facts and promise Utopia to the public. In its manifesto for the Lok Sabha polls, it thus says: âThe Indian National Congress pledges to enact a Right to Food law that guarantees access to sufficient food for all people, particularly the most vulnerable sections of society.â

Did Congress as the leader of UPA alliance arrange sufficient food? Yes, it tried doing so by importing millions of tonnes of duty-free wheat during 2006 and 2007. One has lost track of the number of years the country has been importing pulses and edible oil.

The UPA has relied on this soft option of imports to bridge food security as it has done in the case of energy security by entering into a nuclear deal with the United States.

The short-circuiting of both food security and energy security means a big comprise on national defence security.

The only way India can achieve food security is through a twin-pronged strategy of enforcing strict population control and ushering in second green revolution with the help of genetic engineering and other new techniques.

Instead of pursuing this path of self-reliance, Union Agriculture Minister, Sharad Pawar, last year misled an international conference on food security. A government release dated June 4, 2008, quoted him as saying: âOur policy has been for use of non-cereal biomasses, crop residues and for cultivation of jatropha on degraded and waste land for bio-fuel production. Conversion of foodgrain and edible oil seeds for producing bio-fuel, prima facie, is fraught with food security concern as is evident already.â

Mr. Pawarâs statement is misleading because it does not disclose the fact that Indian government encourages the production of ethanol from grains.

The basic issue is diversion of grains for the manufacture of ethanol. It is secondary issue whether the grain-derived ethanol is subsequently modified to suit a particular application, be it for blending with petrol or be it for production of whisky.

What is more, the usage of grain as raw material for production of alcohol is set to pick up in a big way due to massive surge in demand triggered by governmentâs programme for blending petrol with ethanol.

Thus, the diversion of molasses-based ethanol to petrol sector gets covered up partly by production of grain-based ethanol for liquor sector. It is a pure play of market prices for foodgrain, molasses and ethanol that decides the economics of production and use of alcohol.

Thus, Mr. Pawarâs claim and the Congress Partyâs glib promise on food security are tantamount to rubbing salt on the wounded psyche of an average Indian housewife. She is already feeling hurt by the relentless battle against soar food prices during the last few years.

The policy for production of liquor from grains was introduced in a low-key fashion by Rajiv Gandhi government in 1988 under the garb of checking illicit production of liquor. Another ostensible objective was to make additional molasses available for manufacture of industrial alcohol.

The relevant policy notification titled Creation of additional capacity for manufacture of alcohol based on non-molasses raw materials was issued on April 4, 1988. It says such raw materials would include potatoes, tapioca, mahuwa flowers, coarse grain (maize, jawar, bajra), spoiled wheat/rice and fruits of various types.

Can the UPA government give year-wise data on the quantity and type of foodgrain used by distilleries since the announcement of this policy? Did the government put in place a mechanism to prevent diversion of grain meant for public distribution and for school kitchens to distilleries?

The impact of this policy was aptly described by a liquor company SVP Industries Limited in its draft initial public offer document issued in 2006.

Noting that potable liquor consumption is increasing at 10 per cent per annum, the document said: âIndia, as a nation, has undergone a sea change. At a time in the past liquor was typically looked down upon. With changing lifestyles and urbanisation of our towns and cities, it is no more taboo to be seen drinking. In fact, it has rightly or wrongly enhanced the status. Women and teenagers too have started indulging in social drinking.â

SVP said it would âutilise broken rice, ground wheat flour (atta), maize, bajra and jawar as its raw material with the stand-by option to use molasses as its raw material, in case of any emergency or shortfall in availability of grainâ at its 50 kilolitre per day (KLPD) plant located at Muzaffarnagar in UP.

This distillery would produce both extra-neutral alcohol (ENA) for liquor industry and absolute alcohol for petrol-blending and industrial applications.

Referring to the growing use of grain-derived ENA by Indian-made foreign liquor (IMFL) industry, the company said: âNew IMFL brands are now being launched using grain-based ENA as raw material.â

Noting that the world-famous Scotch whisky brands are now produced across the country, the company said: âSeagram, a liquor company of international repute, manufactures all its brands from grain-based ENA.â

The setting-up of such grain-guzzling projects is not only increasing the foodgrain prices in the market but also creating the prospects of food shortages. The use of maize/corn as raw material by distilleries would also accelerate the demise of poultry farms.

With molasses-based distilleries gradually modifying themselves to use grain as stand-by raw material, the grain markets would come under strain as and when sugarcane production falls as is happening at present.

The grim scenario has all the elements of French Revolution. The legend has it that when the public cried for bread, French queen Marie-Antoinette (1755-93) retorted let them eat cake.

If the grain-based ethanol bandwagon is unchecked, a day would come when the powers that be would say let aam aadami drink grain-derived ethanol, if there is no atta to produce rotis.

Jai Ho! Jai Ho!! Jai Ho!!!

Table: A list of a few major grain-based alcohol plants that have been granted either final or first-stage environmental approval by UPA government
(alcohol capacity in kilolitres per day)
S.No.Â NameÂ CapacityÂ LocationÂ Approval date
1.Â Saswad Mali SugarÂ 30Â Solapur, Mha.Â April 13, 2009
2.Â Shamanur SugarsÂ 60Â Davangere, Kar.Â April 9, 2009
3.Â Berry BreweriesÂ 130Â Khammam, APÂ March 31, 2009
4.Â Kartik AgroÂ 65Â Bagalkot, Kar.Â March 17, 2009
5.Â Shanta BiofuelsÂ 150Â Mahaboobnagar, APÂ February 25, 2009
6.Â Tilaknagar IndustriesÂ 100Â Ahmednagar, MhaÂ February 10, 2009
7.Â Hetsym Bio ChemicalsÂ 100Â Nalgonda, APÂ January 2, 2009
8.Â Aroma BiotechÂ 60Â West Godavari, APÂ July 11, 2008
9.Â Tata ChemicalsÂ 130Â Nanded, Mha.Â March 18, 2008
10.Â Rusni DistilleriesÂ 40Â Medak, APÂ February 18, 2008
11.Â Sri Teja BiofuelsÂ 60Â West Godavari, APÂ October 22, 2008


I don't know any 'elected' government that so hates its people that it hikes up the prices for primary food - diverting it for alcoholic beverages (secondary consumption). Not to mention their destroying what are considered religious treasures of the majority and obstructing their traditional life (RamarSethu, Chidambaram Kovil, Amarnath) and countless other crimes and conspiracies by the government against the populace (fraud of Hindu Terror, arresting Shankaracharya, stealing Temple funds, facilitating christoislamic terrorism).

Truly, christianism is a 'miracle'. The most 'miraculous' part of it by far, though, is that its victims seem to cover for it. To varying degrees. And the pseculars nigh completely - after all, they're not victimised (yet), they just help it to victimise others further with their protectionism.

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Guest - 06-29-2009

paging pink chaddies.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Gay-law-...ys-Moily/482752

QUOTEGovernment will not take a decision in a hurry to repeal the controversial Section 377 of IPC which criminalises homosexuality, Union Law Minister Veerappa Moily said on Monday following concerns voiced by some Christian and Muslim religious groups against the step

Also, Moilyjee says..

QUOTEWe need to apply our mind

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Guest - 06-30-2009

Did Homosexuality exist in ancient India?

First Published in Debonair, Annual issue, 2000

<img src='http://devdutt.com/wpcms/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/gaytempleimage-600x432.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

The answer in many respects depends on what we mean by homosexuality. Do we limit ourselves only to sexual acts between members of the same sex and leave out romantic affection? Do we distinguish between those men who occasionally have sex with other men but otherwise live heterosexual lives, and those for whom their sexual preference forms the core of their identity? Do we consider same-sex intercourse that occurs in the course of a subterfuge, or as a result of frustration or desperation? And do we include liaisons involving those who consider themselves neither male nor female (for example, hijras)? Definitions are important because âhomosexualityâ does not connote the same thing to all people. Besides, the meaning has changed over time. As has the meaning of heterosexuality.

Until early 20th century, âheterosexualityâ was used to refer to âmorbid sexual practicesâ between men and women such as oral and anal intercourse, as opposed to ânormalâ procreative sex. The term homosexuality â that is so casually used today and is almost an everyday vocabulary â came into being only in the late 19th century Europe when discussions on the varied expressions of sex and sexuality became acceptable in academic circles. The term was used to describe âmorbid sexual passion between members of the same sex.â It was declared âunnaturalâ by colonial laws, as unnatural as casual sex between men and women that was not aimed at conception.

The term homosexuality and the laws prohibiting âunnaturalâ sex were imposed across the world through imperial might. Though they exerted a powerful influence on subsequent attitudes, they were neither universal nor timeless. They were â it must be kept in mind â products of minds that were deeply influenced by the âsex is sinâ stance of the Christian Bible. With typical colonial condescension, European definitions, laws, theories and attitudes totally disregarded how similar sexual activity was perceived in other cultures.

There never has been across geography or history a standard expression of, or a common attitude towards sexual acts between members of the same sex. Love of a man for a boy was institutionalised in ancient Greece, amongst Samurais in Japan, in certain African as well as Polynesian tribes. Amongst some Native and South American tribes, erotic relationships between men was acceptable so long as one of the partners was âfeminineâ. For Arabs, so medieval travellers claim, âwomen were for home and hearth, while boys were for pleasureâ. These cultures offer no synonym for same-sex intercourse. It was perhaps a practice that did not merit definition, categorization or even condemnation. So long as it did not threaten the dominant heterosexual social construct.

To find out if homosexuality or same-sex intercourse existed in India, and in what form, we have to turn to three sources: images on temple walls, sacred narratives and ancient law books.

What the walls show

Construction of Hindu temples in stone began around the sixth century of the Common Era. Construction reached climax between the twelfth and the fourteenth century when the grand pagodas of eastern and southern India such as Puri and Tanjore came into being. On the walls and gateways of these magnificent structures we find a variety of images: gods, goddesses, demons, nymphs, sages, warriors, lovers, priests, monsters, dragons, plants and animals. Amongst scenes from epics and legends, one invariably finds erotic images including those that modern law deems unnatural and society considers obscene. Curiously enough, similar images also embellish prayer halls and cave temples of monastic orders such as Buddhism and Jainism built around the same time.

The range of erotic sculptures is wide: from dignified couples exchanging romantic glances, to wild orgies involving warriors, sages and courtesans. Occasionally one finds images depicting bestiality coupled with friezes of animals in intercourse. All rules are broken: elephants are shown copulating with tigers, monkeys molest women while men mate with asses. And once in a while, hidden in niches as in Khajuraho, one does find images of either women erotically embracing other women or men displaying their genitals to each other, the former being more common (suggesting a tilt in favour of the male voyeur).

These images cannot be simply dismissed as perverted fantasies of an artist or his patron considering the profound ritual importance given to these shrines. There have been many explanations offered for these images â ranging from the apologetic to the ridiculous. Some scholars hold a rather puritanical view that devotees are being exhorted to leave these sexual thoughts aside before entering the sanctum sanctorum. Others believe that hidden in these images is a sacred Tantric geometry; the aspirant can either be deluded by the sexuality of the images or enlightened by deciphering the geometrical patterns therein. One school of thought considers these images to representations of either occult rites or fertility ceremonies. Another suggests that these were products of degenerate minds obsessed with sex in a corrupt phase of Indian history. According to ancient treatises on architecture, a religious structure is incomplete unless its walls depicts something erotic, for sensual pleasures (kama) are as much an expression of life as are righteous conduct (dharma), economic endeavours (artha) and spiritual pursuits (moksha).

Interpretations and judgements aside, these images to tell us that the âideaâ of same-sex and what the colonial rulers termed âunnaturalâ intercourse did exist in India. One can only speculate if the images represent the common or the exception.

What the stories suggest

In Indian epics and chronicles, there are occasional references to same-sex intercourse. For example, in the Valmiki Ramayana, Hanuman is said to have seen Rakshasa women kissing and embracing those women who have been kissed and embraced by Ravana. In the Padma Purana is the story of a king who dies before he can give his two queens the magic potion that will make them pregnant. Desperate to bear his child, the widows drink the potion, make love to each other (one behaving as a man, the other as a woman) and conceive a child. Unfortunately, as two women are involved in the rite of conception, the child is born without bones or brain (according to ancient belief, the mother gives the fetus flesh and blood, while the father gives the bone and brain). In these stories, the same-sex intercourse, born of frustration or desperation, is often a poor substitute of heterosexual sex.

More common are stories of women turning into men and men turning into women. In the Mahabharata, Drupada raises his daughter Shikhandini as a man and even gets âhimâ a wife. When the wife discovers the truth on the wedding night, all hell breaks loose; her father threatens to destroy Drupadaâs kingdom. The timely intervention of Yaksha saves the day: he lets Shikhandini use his manhood for a night and perform his husbandly duties. In the Skanda Purana, two Brahmins desperate for money disguise themselves as a newly married couple and try to dupe a pious queen in the hope of securing rich gifts. But such is the queenâs piety that the gods decide to prevent her from being made a fool; they turn the Brahmin dressed as a bride into a real woman. The two Brahmins thus end up marrying each other and all ends well. According to a folk narrative from Koovagam in Tamil Nadu, the Pandavas were told to sacrifice Arjunaâs son Aravan if they wished to win the war at Kurukshetra. Aravan refused to die a virgin. As no woman was willing to marry a man doomed to die in a day, Krishnaâs help was sought. Krishna turned into a woman, married Aravan, spent a night with him and when he was finally beheaded, mourned for him like a widow. These stories allow women to have sex with women and men to have sex with men on heterosexual terms. One may interpret these tales as repressed homosexual fantasies of a culture.

Perhaps the most popular stories revolving around gender metamorphoses are those related to Mohini, the female incarnation of Lord Vishnu. They are found in many Puranas. Vishnu becomes a woman to trick demons and tempt sages. When the gods and demons churn the elixir of immortality out of the ocean of milk, Mohini distracts the demons with her beauty and ensures that only the gods sip the divine drink. In another story, Mohini tricks a demon with the power to incinerate any creature by his mere touch to place his hand on his own head. Mohini is so beautiful that when Shiva looks upon her he sheds semen out of which are born mighty heroes such as Hanuman (according to Shiva Purana) and Ayyappa (according to the Malayalee folk lore). One wonders why Vishnu himself transforms into a woman when he could have appointed a nymph or goddess to do the needful. However, devotees brush aside even the suggestion of a homosexual subtext; for them this sexual transformation is merely a necessary subterfuge to ensure cosmic stability. He who is enchanted by Mohiniâs form remains trapped in the material world; he who realizes Mohiniâs essence (Vishnu) attains liberation.

In the Brahmavaivarta Purana, Mohini tells Brahma, âAny man who refuses to satisfy a willing woman in her fertile period is a eunuch.â This idea is explicit in the Mahabharata when Arjuna is deprived of his manhood after he spurns the sexual attentions of the nymph Urvashi. Consequently, the mighty archer is forced to live as a âeunuch dance teacherâ called Brihanalla in the court of King Virata for a year. All this suggests that in ancient India, men who were âunlike menâ, unwilling or incapable to have intercourse with women, were deprived of their manhood and expected to live as women in the fringes of mainstream society. Perhaps this explains the existence of the hijra community in India. Like Brihanalla of Mahabharata, hijras have served in the female quarters of royal households for centuries.

Hijras are organized communities comprises of males who express themselves socially as women. They are a mix of transsexuals (men who believe themselves to be women), transvestites (men who dress in womenâs clothes), homosexual (men who are sexually and romantically attracted to men), hermaphrodites (men whose genitals are poorly defined due to genetic defect or hormonal imbalance) and eunuchs (castrated men). In one of the many folk stories associated with Bahucharaji (patron goddess of hijras worshipped in Gujarat), the goddess was once a princess who castrated her husband because he preferred going to forest and âbehaving as a womanâ instead of coming to her bridal bed. In another story, the man who attempted to molest Bahucharaji was cursed with impotency. He was forgiven only after he gave up his masculinity, dressed as a woman and worshipped the goddess.

The idea of men who are not quite male or female was known in India for a long time. Such beings were known as kliba. In the Brahmana texts, written eight centuries before Christ we learn that when the gods separated the three worlds, there was sorrow. The gods cast the sorrow of the heaven into a whore (socially improper woman), the sorrow of the nether regions into the rogue (socially improper man) and the sorrow of earth into the kliba (biologically imperfect human). In later Hindu texts such as Manusmriti, the kliba was forbidden for participating in rituals; he was not allowed to possess property. Scholars believe the kliba was an umbrella term not unlike present-day words like namard and napunsak, which could mean anything from sexually dysfunctional male to impotent man to homosexual. One text describes fourteen different types of klibas, one of whom is a man who uses his mouth as a vagina (mukhabhaga). Hijras believe that they are neither male nor female, making them the descendents of the ancient kliba (though there is no definite proof in this regard). According to hijra folklore, when Rama went to the forest in exile, he asked the men and women of Ayodhya who had followed him to return to city. Since he said nothing to those who were neither male nor female, these waited outside the city until he returned. Touched by their devotion, Rama declared that the non-man would be king in the Kali Yuga.

What the scriptures reveal

The Kali Yuga marks the final phase in the cosmic lifespan, the era before the flood of doom. Hindu scriptures state that in this age all forms of sexual irregularities will occur. Men will deposit semen in apertures not meant for them (Mouth? Anus?). According to Narada Purana: âThe great sinner who discharges semen in non-vagins, in those who are destitute of vulva, and uteruses of animals shall fall into the hell âreto-bhojanaâ (where one has to subsist on semen). He then falls into âvasakupaâ (a deep and narrow well of fat). There he stays for seven divine years. That man has semen for his diet. He becomes the despicable man in the world when reborn.â Clearly an acknowledgement, but not acceptance, of homosexual conduct.

In the Kamasutra, there is a rather disdainful reference to male masseurs who indulge in oral sex (auparashtika). The author of this sex manual was not a fan of homosexual activities though he did refer to them in his book. Reference, but not approval, to homosexual conduct does occur in many Dharmashastras. These Hindu law books tell us what is considered by Brahmins to be acceptable and unacceptable social conduct. Since laws are not made on activities that donât exist, a study of these scriptures does give an insight into behaviours in ancient India that merited a law.

The Manusmriti scorns female homosexuals. It states, âIf a girl does it (has sex) to another girl, she should be fined two hundred (pennies), be made to pay double (the girlâs) bride-price, and receive ten whip (lashes). But if a (mature) woman does it to a girl, her head should be shaved immediately or two of her fingers should be cut off, and she should be made to ride on a donkey.â There are no kind words for a male homosexual either: âCausing an injury to a priest, smelling wine or things that are not to be smelled, crookedness, and sexual union with a man are traditionally said to cause loss of caste.â And: âIf a man has shed his semen in non-human females, in a man, in a menstruating woman, in something other than a vagina, or in water, he should carry out the âPainful Heatingâ vow.â Further: âIf a twice-born man unites sexually with a man or a woman in a cart pulled by a cow, or in water, or by day, he should bathe with his clothes on.â The âPainful Heatingâ vow is traditionally said to consist of cowâs urine, cow dung, milk, yogurt, melted butter, water infused with sacrificial grass, and a fast of one night. Compared to the treatment of female homosexuals, the treatment of male homosexuals is relatively mild. Note that there are no threats of âeternalâ damnation, unlike the dogmas of Judeo-Christian-Islamic scriptures. There is nothing permanent in the Hindu world. There is always another life, another chance.

An overview of temple imagery, sacred narratives and religious scriptures does suggest that homosexual activities â in some form â did exist in ancient India. Though not part of the mainstream, its existence was acknowledged but not approved. There was some degree of tolerance when the act expressed itself in heterosexual terms â when men âbecame womenâ in their desire for other men, as the hijra legacy suggests. The question that remains now is: how does attitudes towards homosexuals in ancient India affect modern-day attitudes? Is our approval or disapproval of same-sex affection and intercourse dependent on ancient values? And while we ponder over the questions, we must remind ourselves that the ancient sources that censure homosexual conduct, also institutionalised the caste system and approved the subservience of women.

http://devdutt.com/did-homosexuality-exist-in-ancient-india

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Husky - 06-30-2009

QUOTE(rhytha @ Jun 30 2009, 12:27 PM)Did Homosexuality exist in ancient India?

First Published in Debonair, Annual issue, 2000
[...]
The question that remains now is: how does attitudes towards homosexuals in ancient India affect modern-day attitudes? Is our approval or disapproval of same-sex affection and intercourse dependent on ancient values? And while we ponder over the questions, we must remind ourselves that the ancient sources that censure homosexual conduct, also institutionalised the caste system and approved the subservience of women.

http://devdutt.com/did-homosexuality-exist-in-ancient-india
[right][snapback]99292[/snapback][/right]Good grief. Are these psecular writers lecturing Hindus? Amazing. *We* are not the ones they need to worry about, since in general Hindu society has no intention of impinging on the rights of others where these do not void or minimise our own. It is christoislamoronism that they need to be concerned about.

QUOTEAravan refused to die a virgin. As no woman was willing to marry a man doomed to die in a day, Krishnaâs help was sought. Krishna turned into a woman, married Aravan, spent a night with him and when he was finally beheaded, mourned for him like a widow. These stories allow women to have sex with women and men to have sex with men on heterosexual terms. One may interpret these tales as repressed homosexual fantasies of a culture.<img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /> <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /> <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /> <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' />
Interpret away. That's what modernist Indians do.
(Also, they need to give references - how else are we to know they're not making stuff up.)

But I read them as given: the characters changed gender and had heterosexual relationships. (Krishna also married a bear, Jambavan's daughter. God can easily change gender or form such as human or other animal or whatever. Mahavishnu also became the beautiful divine female Mohini. At one point she and Shiva produced Ayyappa.
I know such things do not compute to christoconditioned people. They *must* have it that this is either a 'gay thing', a 'transvestite thing' or some thing that they can recognise in human life, or at least what they've seen on western TV or somewhere.
Far be it for Gods to be able to - gulp - actually change gender. Even though Vishnu can just as easily take on animal avataras like Kurma and human ones like Rama and Krishna. But for Hindu Gods to become female - well the biblical gawd can't do that, therefore, it 'must' be an impossibility and must 'therefore' imply what is not straightforwardly written.)

And that still does not mean I oppose homosexuality in any way.
My point is that there's simply no need to turn narratives of gender-change into implying "repressed homosexuality." People don't feel repression in the East as they do in the christoislamism-terrorised west and middle-east, because Dharmic and (S)E Asian traditionalist societies don't persecute/murder/maim gay people for being homosexual. Whereas christoislamism does.

ADDED:
QUOTEOne wonders why Vishnu himself transforms into a woman when he could have appointed a nymph or goddess to do the needful.Vishnu himself incarnated as the female Mohini (such as for destroying Bhasmasura) for the same reason as why he himself manifests repeatedly in his other forms to protect the world. Our Gods are Gods of action, Gods who set the example: when action (their intervention) is required to save the world, they will come to fulfill the hard work themselves, thereby also teaching humanity the importance to always act. Hard to understand, isn't it?

And this:
QUOTEBut if a (mature) woman does it to a girl, her head should be shaved immediately or two of her fingers should be cut off, and she should be made to ride on a donkey.Yeah, well paedophilia should be punished. This instruction in the manusmriti has nothing to do with being anti-gay.

While - in the absence of further context - this could be construed as discouraging underage sex:
QUOTEIf a girl does it (has sex) to another girl, she should be fined two hundred (pennies), be made to pay double (the girlâs) bride-price

I still don't see why the pseculars need to lecture Hindu society on homosexuality <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' />

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Guest - 06-30-2009

Husky, check the authors website, he is not a psecular.

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Husky - 06-30-2009

QUOTE(rhytha @ Jun 30 2009, 04:39 PM)Husky, check the authors website, he is not a psecular.
[right][snapback]99296[/snapback][/right]Reading "repressed homosexuality" into narratives where there is no need for repression *is* christoconditioning.

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Husky - 06-30-2009

Buddhist article on homosexuality in #4 is a useful read.
1-3 are mere opinionating.

1.
QUOTEAccording to a folk narrative from Koovagam in Tamil Nadu, the Pandavas were told to sacrifice Arjunaâs son Aravan if they wished to win the war at Kurukshetra. Aravan refused to die a virgin. As no woman was willing to marry a man doomed to die in a day, Krishnaâs help was sought. Krishna turned into a woman, married Aravan, spent a night with him and when he was finally beheaded, mourned for him like a widow. These stories allow women to have sex with women and men to have sex with men on heterosexual terms. One may interpret these tales as repressed homosexual fantasies of a culture.I suppose it didn't occur to Devdutta that perhaps Aravan may have been particularly interested in women, since he seems to have been looking for a wife, rather than just a general desperation of "I just don't wanna die a virgin". And since Krishna is all-compassionate Bhagavan, he just turned himself into whatever Aravan wished for - in this case a woman - and became Aravan's wife for the remainder of Aravan's short life and, as a spouse would, mourned for him too.
I think it's rather a touching narrative actually.

The Mohini, Shiva, Ayappa narrative is the same: Vishnu in his incarnation as Mohini is female.

2. Modernist Indians are too christoconditioned and so their thinking now starts following christopatterns. Hence they have to do roundabout reinterpretion of straightforward narratives, like this example from Devdutta:
QUOTEIn the Brahmavaivarta Purana, Mohini tells Brahma, âAny man who refuses to satisfy a willing woman in her fertile period is a eunuch.â This idea is explicit in the Mahabharata when Arjuna is deprived of his manhood after he spurns the sexual attentions of the nymph Urvashi. Consequently, the mighty archer is forced to live as a âeunuch dance teacherâ called Brihanalla in the court of King Virata for a year. All this suggests that in ancient India, men who were âunlike menâ, unwilling or incapable to have intercourse with women, were deprived of their manhood and expected to live as women in the fringes of mainstream society.I can't see that it suggests anything of the sort. Arjuna understandably regarded the Apsara Urvashi as a sort of mother (for being an ancestress). His reasoning and conduct were entirely faultless. In Indra's assembly, Arjuna had looked at Urvasi. Later Indra, thinking Arjuna to be romantically inclined toward Urvashi, had sent a Gandharva to ask Urvashi to grace Arjuna with her presence and person. Having heard of how wonderful Arjuna's character was, she naturally fell headlong and was interested. So she went to meet him. But turns out that Arjuna had looked at her in the assembly happy to gaze upon the face of his ancestress whom he highly respected.
Perhaps Urvashi felt genuinely slighted or perhaps (rather) she just carried out her part to fulfill the arc of his heroic destiny - in any case, the result was that she cursed him to be a eunuch for some time.
But what does this have to do with Arjuna being 'unwilling' or 'incapable' or a man who was 'unlike men'? He had several wives at least and became a parent and grandparent too. Not unwilling. Not incapable. And I don't even know what "a man who's unlike men" means.

Here, the original's better:
http://www.bharatadesam.com/spiritual/maha...arata_03046.php
QUOTEThat I had gazed particularly at thee, O blessed one, is true. There was a reason for it. I shall truly tell it to thee, O thou of luminous smiles! In the assembly I gazed at thee with eyes expanded in delight, thinking, 'Even this blooming lady is the mother of the Kaurava race.' O blessed Apsara, it behoveth thee not to entertain other feelings towards me, for thou art superior to my superiors, being the parent of my race.'"

"Hearing these words of Arjuna, Urvasi answered, saying, 'O son of The chief of the celestials, we Apsaras are free and unconfined in our choice. It behoveth thee not, therefore, to esteem me as thy superior. The sons and grandsons of Puru's race, that have come hither in consequence of ascetic merit do all sport with us, without incurring any sin. Relent, therefore, O hero, it behoveth thee not to send me away. I am burning with desire. I am devoted to thee. Accept me, O thou giver of proper respect.'"

"Arjuna replied, 'O beautiful lady of features perfectly faultless, listen. I truly tell thee. Let the four directions and the transverse directions, let also the gods listen. O sinless one, as Kunti, or Madri, or Sachi, is to me, so art thou, the parent of my race, an object of reverence to me. Return, O thou of the fairest complexion: I bend my head unto thee, and prostrate myself at thy feet. Thou deservest my worship as my own mother; and it behoveth thee to protect me as a son.'"

Vaisampayana continued, "Thus addressed by Partha, Urvasi was deprived of her senses by wrath. Trembling with rage, and contracting her brows, she cursed Arjuna, saying, 'Since thou disregardest a woman come to thy mansion at the command of thy father and of her own motion--a woman, besides, who is pierced by the shafts of Kama, therefore, O Partha, thou shalt have to pass thy time among females unregarded, and as a dancer, and destitute of manhood and scorned as a eunuch.'"

Vaisampayana continued, "Having cursed Arjuna thus, Urvasi's lips still quivered in anger, herself breathing heavily all the while. And she soon returned to her own abode. And that slayer of foes, Arjuna also sought Chitrasena without loss of time. And having found him, he told him all that had passed between him and Urvasi in the night. And he told Chitrasena everything as it had happened, repeatedly referring to the curse pronounced upon him. And Chitrasena also represented everything unto Sakra. And Harivahana, calling his son unto himself in private, and consoling him in sweet words, smilingly said, 'O thou best of beings, having obtained thee, O child, Pritha hath to-day become a truly blessed mother. O mighty-armed one, thou hast now vanquished even Rishis by the patience and self-control. But, O giver of proper respect, the curse that Urvasi hath denounced on thee will be to thy benefit,

p. 104

O child, and stand thee in good stead. O sinless one, ye will have on earth to pass the thirteenth year (of your exile), unknown to all. It is then that thou shalt suffer the curse of Urvasi. And having passed one year as a dancer without manhood, thou shalt regain thy power on the expiration of the term.'"

"Thus addressed by Sakra, that slayer of hostile heroes, Phalguna, experienced great delight and ceased to think of the curse. And Dhananjaya, the son of Pandu, sported in regions of heaven with the Gandharva Chitrasena of great celebrity."

"The desires of the man that listeneth to this history of the son of Pandu never run after lustful ends. The foremost of men, by listening to this account of the awfully pure conduct of Phalguna, the son of the lord of the celestials, become void of pride and arrogance and wrath and other faults, and ascending to heaven, sport there in bliss."

3. And about this:
QUOTEDevdutta quotes Goddess Mohini as saying: âAny man who refuses to satisfy a willing woman in her fertile period is a eunuch.âI rather read this line in the straightforward manner: "fertile period" sounds like it implies the woman may be biologically prone to conceive offspring. While I don't know the context to perceive whether there is more to Mohini's statement than what's given, but considering just the visible, it may merely mean that she is declaring something like: "If such a woman is interested, what a 'waste' (in that sense) of an occasion." Could be seen as no more than sensible advice from a fertility Goddess, with what seems like a little bit of (divine) reproof for the man in question thrown in.

Alternatively, it's possible that it may merely be a logical statement (statement of fact), rather than containing any reproach let alone threatening any consequence:
That is, the construction
(Mohini Smile

âAny man who refuses to satisfy a willing woman in her fertile period is a eunuchâ
takes the form of
"Any person who does not do X in <specified circumstances> would be in situation Y (since Y would explain the matter)".

Both are plausible, so I don't know how Devdutta thinks his more stretched observation is likely to be the only - or even the first - solution:
QUOTEDevdutta: All this suggests that in ancient India, men who were âunlike menâ, unwilling or incapable to have intercourse with women, were deprived of their manhood and expected to live as women in the fringes of mainstream society. <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' />

Can't figure how Devdutta thinks his logic "follows" from Mohini's line and from the case of Arjuna being cursed by Urvashi to later temporarily become a eunuch.
Urvashi chose to curse Arjuna. Lessons (such as in Arjuna's conduct) there are to be had, but it does not mean it is allegory for the general consequences that may befall/"that Hindu society may impose" on any man who for whatever reason is not interested.

4. This is a good read for Dharmics, IMO.
http://www.buddhanet.net/homosexu.htm
Buddha.net's well-explained article on Theravada Buddhism's view on homosexuality
QUOTEHomosexuality and Theravada Buddhism
by A. L. De Silva

Buddhism teaches to, and expects from, its followers a certain level of ethical behaviour. The minimum that is required of the lay Buddhist is embodied in what is called the Five Precepts (panca sila), the third of which relates to sexual behaviour. Whether or not homosexuality, sexual behaviour between people of the same sex, would be breaking the third Precept is what I would like to examine here.

Homosexuality was known in ancient India; it is explicitly mentioned in the Vinaya (monastic discipline) and prohibited. It is not singled out for special condemnation, but rather simply mentioned along with a wide range of other sexual behaviour as contravening the rule that requires monks and nuns to be celibate. Sexual behaviour, whether with a member of the same or the opposite sex, where the sexual organ enters any of the bodily orifices (vagina, mouth or anus), is punishable by expulsion from the monastic order. Other sexual behaviour like mutual masturbation or interfemural sex, while considered a serious offense, does not entail expulsion but must be confessed before the monastic community.

A type of person called a pandaka is occasionally mentioned in the Vinaya in contexts that make it clear that such a person is some kind of sexual non-conformist. The Vinaya also stipulates that pandakas are not allowed to be ordained, and if, inadvertently, one has been, he is expelled. According to commentary, this is because pandakas are "full of passions, unquenchable lust and are dominated by the desire for sex." The word pandaka has been translated as either hermaphrodite or eunuch, while Zwilling has recently suggested that it may simply mean a homosexual. It is more probable that ancient Indians, like most modern Asians, considered only the extremely effeminate, exhibitionist homosexual (the screaming queen in popular perception) to be deviant while the less obvious homosexual was simply considered a little more opportunistic or a little less fussy than other 'normal' males. As the Buddha seems to have had a profound understanding of human nature and have been remarkably free from prejudice, and as there is not evidence that homosexuals are any more libidinous or that they have any more difficulties in maintaining celibacy than heterosexuals, it seems unlikely that the Buddha would exclude homosexuals per se from the monastic life. The term pandaka therefore probably does not refer to homosexuals in general but rather to the effeminate, self-advertising and promiscuous homosexual.

The lay Buddhist is not required to be celibate, but she or he is advised to avoid certain types of sexual behaviour. The third Precept actually says: 'Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami.' The word kama refers to any form of sensual pleasure but with an emphasis on sexual pleasure and a literal translation of the precept would be "I take the rule of training (veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami) not to go the wrong way (micchacara) for sexual pleasure (kamesu)". What constitutes "wrong" will not be clear until we examine the criteria that Buddhism uses to make ethical judgments.

No one of the Buddha's discourses is devoted to systematic philosophical inquiry into ethics such as one finds in the works of the Greek philosophers. But it is possible to construct a criterion of right and wrong out of material scattered in different places throughout the Pali Tipitaka, the scriptural basis of Theravada Buddhism. The Buddha questioned many of the assumptions existing in his society, including moral ones, and tried to develop an ethics based upon reason and compassion rather than tradition, superstitions and taboo. Indeed, in the famous Kalama Sutta he says that revelation (anussana), tradition (parampara), the authority of the scriptures (pitakasampada) and one's own point of view (ditthinijjhanakkhanti) are inadequate means of determining right and wrong.

Having questioned the conventional basis of morality, the Buddha suggests three criteria for making moral judgments. The first is what might be called the universalisability principle - to act towards others the way we would like them to act towards us. In the Samyutta Nikaya he uses this principle to advise against adultery. He says: "What sort of Dhamma practice leads to great good for oneself?... A noble disciple should reflect like this: 'If someone were to have sexual intercourse with my spouse I would not like it. Likewise, if I were to have sexual intercourse with another's spouse they would not like that. For what is unpleasant to me must be unpleasant to another, and how could I burden someone with that?' As a result of such reflection one abstains from wrong sexual desire, encourages others to abstain from it, and speaks in praise of such abstinence."

In the Bahitika Sutta, Ananda is asked how to distinguish between praiseworthy and blameworthy behaviour. He answers that any behaviour which causes harm to oneself and others could be called blameworthy while any behaviour that causes no harm (and presumably which helps) oneself and others could be called praiseworthy. The suggestion is, therefore, that in determining right and wrong one has to look into the actual and possible consequences of the action in relation to the agent and those affected by the action. The Buddha makes this same point in the Dhammapada: "The deed which causes remorse afterwards and results in weeping and tears is ill-done. The deed which causes no remorse afterwards and results in joy and happiness is well-done." This is what might be called the consequential principle, that behaviour can be considered good or bad according to the consequences or effects it has.

The third way of determining right and wrong is what might be called the instrumental principle, that is, that behaviour can be considered right or wrong according to whether or not it helps us to attain our goal. The ultimate goal of Buddhism is Nirvana, a state of mental peace and purity and anything that leads one in that direction is good. Someone once asked the Buddha how after his death it would be possible to know what was and was not his authentic teaching and he replied: "The doctrines of which you can say: 'These doctrines lead to letting go, giving up, stilling, calming, higher knowledge, awakening and to Nirvana' - you can be certain that they are Dhamma, they are discipline, they are the words of the Teacher."

This utilitarian attitude to ethics is highlighted by the fact that the Buddha uses the term kusala to mean 'skillful' or 'appropriate' or its opposite, akusala, when evaluating behaviour far more frequently than he uses the terms punna, 'good', or papa, 'bad'. The other thing that is important in evaluating behaviour is intention (cetacean). If a deed is motivated by good (based upon generosity, love and understanding) intentions it can be considered skillful. Evaluating ethical behaviour in Buddhism requires more than obediently following commandments, it requires that we develop a sympathy with others, that we be aware of our thoughts, speech and actions, and that we be clear about our goals and aspirations.

Having briefly examined the rational foundations of Buddhist ethics we are now in a better position to understand what sort of sexual behaviour Buddhism would consider to be wrong or unskillful and why. The Buddha specifically mentions several types of unskillful sexual behaviour, the most common of which is adultery. This is unskillful because it requires subterfuge and deceit, it means that solemn promises made at the time of marriage are broken, and it amounts to a betrayal of trust. In another passage, the Buddha says that someone practicing the third Precept "avoids intercourse with girls still under the ward of their parents, brothers, sisters or relatives, with married women, with female prisoners or with those already engaged to another." Girls still under the protection of others are presumably too young to make a responsible decision about sex, prisoners are not in a position to make a free choice, while an engaged woman has already made a commitment to another. Although only females are mentioned here no doubt the same would apply to males in the same position.

As homosexuality is not explicitly mentioned in any of the Buddha's discourses (more than 20 volumes in the Pali Text Society's English translation), we can only assume that it is meant to be evaluated in the same way that heterosexuality is. And indeed it seems that this is why it is not specifically mentioned. In the case of the lay man and woman where there is mutual consent, where adultery is not involved and where the sexual act is an expression of love, respect, loyalty and warmth, it would not be breaking the third Precept. And it is the same when the two people are of the same gender. Likewise promiscuity, license and the disregard for the feelings of others would make a sexual act unskillful whether it be heterosexual or homosexual. All the principles we would use to evaluate a heterosexual relationship we would also use to evaluate a homosexual one. In Buddhism we could say that it is not the object of one's sexual desire that determines whether a sexual act is unskillful or not, but rather the quality of the emotions and intentions involved.

However, the Buddha sometimes advised against certain behaviour not because it is wrong from the point of view of ethics but because it would put one at odds with social norms or because its is subject to legal sanctions. In these cases, the Buddha says that refraining from such behaviour will free one from the anxiety and embarrassment caused by social disapproval or the fear of punitive action. Homosexuality would certainly come under this type of behaviour. In this case, the homosexual has to decide whether she or he is going to acquiesce to what society expects or to try to change public attitudes. In Western societies where attitudes towards sex in general have been strongly influenced by the tribal taboos of the Old Testament and, in the New Testament, by the ideas of highly neurotic people like St. Paul, there is a strong case for changing public attitudes.

We will now briefly examine the various objections to homosexuality and give Buddhist rebuttals to them. The most common Christian and Muslim objection to homosexuality is that it is unnatural and "goes against the order of nature". There seems to be little evidence for this. Miriam Rothschild, the eminent biologist who played a crucial role in the fight to decriminalize homosexuality in Britain, pointed out at the time that homosexual behaviour has been observed in almost every known species of animal. Secondly, it could be argued that while the biological function of sex is reproduction, most sexual activity today is not for reproduction, but for recreation and emotional fulfillment, and that this too is a legitimate function of sex. This being so, while homosexuality is unnatural in that it cannot leads to reproduction, it is quite natural for the homosexual in that for her or him it provides physical and emotional fulfillment. Indeed, for him or her, heterosexual behaviour is unnatural. Thirdly, even if we concede that homosexuality "goes against the order of nature", we would have to admit that so do many other types of human behaviour, including some religious behaviour. The Roman Catholic Church has always condemned homosexuality because of its supposed unnaturalness - but it has long idealized celibacy, which, some might argue, is equally unnatural. Another Christian objection to homosexuality is that it is condemned in the Bible, an argument that is meaningful to those who accept that the Bible is the infallible word of God, but which is meaningless to the majority who do not accept this. But while there is no doubt that the Bible condemns homosexuality, it also stipulates that women should be socially isolated while menstruating, that parents should kill their children if they worship any god other than the Christian God and that those who work on the Sabbath should be executed. Few Christians today would agree with these ideas even though they are a part of God's words, and yet they continue to condemn homosexuality simply because it is condemned in the Bible.

One sometimes hears people say: "If homosexuality were not illegal, many people, including the young, will become gay." 'This type of statement reflects either a serious misunderstanding about the nature of homosexuality or perhaps a latent homosexuality in the person who would make such a statement. It is as silly as saying that if attempted suicide is not a criminal offense then everyone will go out and commit suicide. Whatever the cause of homosexuality (and there is great debate on the subject), one certainly does not 'choose' to have homoerotic feelings in the same way one would, for example, choose to have tea instead of coffee. It is either inborn or develops in early childhood. And it is the same with heterosexuality. Changing laws does not change people's sexual inclinations.

Some have argued that there must be something wrong with homosexuality because so many homosexuals are emotionally disturbed. At first there seems to be some truth in this. In the West, at least, many homosexuals suffer from psychological problems, abuse alcohol, and indulge in obsessive sexual behaviour. As a group, homosexuals have a high rate of suicide. But observers have pointed out that such problems seem to be no more pronounced amongst African and Asian homosexuals than they are in the societies in which they live. It is very likely that homosexuals in the West are wounded more by society's attitude to them than by their sexual proclivity, and, if they are treated the same as everybody else, they will be the same as everybody else. Indeed, this is the strongest argument for acceptance and understanding towards homosexuals.

Christianity grew out of and owes much to Judaism with its tradition of fiery prophets fiercely and publicly denouncing what they considered to be moral laxity or injustice. Jesus was very much influenced by this tradition, as have been the Christian responses to public and private morality generally. At its best, this tradition in Christianity to loudly denounce immorality and injustice has given the West its high degree of social conscience. At its worst, it has meant that those who did not or could not conform to Christian standards have been cruelly exposed and persecuted. The Buddhist monk's role has always been very different from his Christian counterpart. His job has been to teach the Dhamma and to act as a quiet example of how it should be lived. This, together with Buddhism's rational approach to ethics and the high regard it has always given to tolerance, has meant that homosexuals in Buddhist societies have been treated very differently form how they have been in the West. In countries like China, Korea and Japan where Buddhism was profoundly influenced by Confucianism, there have been periods when homosexuality has been looked upon with disapproval and even been punishable under the law. But generally the attitude has been one of tolerance. Matteo Ricci, the Jesuit missionary who lived in China for twenty-seven years from 1583, expressed horror at the open and tolerant attitude that the Chinese took to homosexuality and naturally enough saw this as proof of the degeneracy of Chinese society. "That which most shows the misery of these people is that no less than the natural lusts, they practise unnatural ones that reverse the order of things, and this is neither forbidden by law nor thought to be illicit nor even a cause for shame. It is spoken of in public and practiced everywhere without there being anyone to prevent it." In Korea the ideal of the hwarang (flower boy) was often associated with homosexuality especially during the Yi dynasty. In Japan, a whole genre of literature (novelettes, poems and stories) on the love between samurais and even between Buddhist monks and temple boys developed during the late mediaeval period.

Theravada Buddhist countries like Sri Lanka and Burma had no legal statutes against homosexuality between consenting adults until the colonial era when they were introduced by the British. Thailand, which had no colonial experience, still has no such laws. This had led some Western homosexuals to believe that homosexuality is quite accepted in Buddhist countries of South and South-east Asia. This is certainly not true. In such countries, when homosexuals are thought of at all, it is more likely to be in a good-humored way or with a degree of pity. Certainly the loathing, fear and hatred that the Western homosexual has so often had to endure is absent and this is due, to a very large degree, to Buddhism's humane and tolerant influence.

This reflects traditionalist Asia in general (including Daoist, Shinto, Confucian society), it is largely the same in Hindu Dharma. While homosexuality is not encouraged, we don't make people's lives a nightmare either, but generally try to include them, since people's lives where these do not affect others are not a problem at all.

But interpreting Hindu narratives as "implying" "repressed homosexuality" is actually an insult: that we are such an intolerant society that homosexuality can only be mentioned indirectly "since Hindu society won't allow it other expression". Really?
Then every single Hindu narrative should be scrutinised and reinterpreted to the same level, I suppose: trying to find some hidden double/triple meaning that general Hindu society is "incapable of facing". Nonsense. If they can make sculptures that are quite graphic in depiction, can't they tell a gay story in a straightforward manner?
Only christoislamic society forces secrecy, reliance on excessive usage of allusions, etcetera.

Progressive Duplicity and moral policing - Guest - 06-30-2009

While a fine effort from the author, the article has a fundamental flaw.

QUOTEAn overview of temple imagery, sacred narratives and religious scriptures does suggest that homosexual activities â in some form â did exist in ancient India.

All of these articles read in line of when homosexuality was "discovered" as in Columbus/Amerigo "discovered" america in year xyz . Whats next ? Discovery of masturbation by ancient hindus (with rock sculptures) ?

Its anyway offtopic and totally missing the point of this thread.

The point of this thread in todays context is what color chaddies will Susan madame and pink chaddies send to Maulanas and Padres who have opposed annulment of article 377.

I think we should take bets. Perhaps people who understand todays youngsters should try -> what color undies would todays youngsters send to Maulanas of deoband ? Green ? Or perhaps thongs ? Leather ?