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Nuclear Thread - 4 - Capt M Kumar - 09-06-2008
Sleepless in Vienna: China threatens to leave for home, US works into the night
Pranab Dhal Samanta
Posted online: Saturday, September 06, 2008 at 0208 hrs Print Email
Vienna: Austria, Ireland holding out, revised draft goes to Washington for clearance; India reiterates commitment on non-proliferation
Vienna, September 5: With Austria and Ireland still holding out and the Chinese delegation threatening to leave for Beijing, tough negotiations were on late into the night at the 45-member Nuclear Suppliers Group in Vienna to forge a consensus to end Indiaâs three and a half decades of nuclear isolation.
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/357961.html
Nuclear Thread - 4 - Guest - 09-06-2008
<b>INDIA JOINS NUCLEAR CLUB, GETS NSG WAIVER</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Sources have told NDTV that the new draft, which got the go-ahead by the NSG, <b>has no reference to testing, enrichment ban and preprocessing technology ban</b>.
Speaking about the development, Congress leader Digvijay Singh has said that it is a historic day for India and the Prime Minister and team has achieved an impossible task.
External Affairs Minister <b>Pranab Mukherjee's statement on moratorium is a part of the N-waiver received by India</b>.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nuclear Thread - 4 - Husky - 09-06-2008
Hmmm, a treaty with America. Now why does that sound so disconcerting? Oh yes, that's right, faithless USA also signed lots of treaties with the true owners of America: the native Americans. And look what the christo settlers did to them. They've reduced the only and true inhabitants to an infinitesimal minority in their own land - first through genocide, then through such things as government-sponsored sterilisation operations in the 70s (<- hey, what'd do you know, that falls under genocide too). Jeebus works in not-so-mysterious ways.
Nuclear Thread - 4 - ravish - 09-06-2008
At last despite considerable opposition from both home and abroad India has made it at the IAEA. However, this is not the end of the story; it is perhaps the beginning of an interesting phase in our nationâs history. On one hand, it has started the process of cooperation in political platform between the BJP and the Left and strangely with many supporters to the cause from the United States of America and the West. On the other hand, the Congress party and the ruling coalition has to face the electorate who by the time of the next general elections will be completely brainwashed with India sell out theory.
Nareshji , as a connoisseur of the finer and nicer things of life may I recommend some Bouroux Rouge at this moment before the great political game starts with perhaps a number of new alignments.
Nuclear Thread - 4 - acharya - 09-07-2008
<b>China played spoilsport in NSG meet</b>
7 Sep, 2008, 0000 hrs IST, ET Bureau
NEW DELHI: The biggest surprise element for India in the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) deliberations was the role played by China which at the last minute spoke out against granting a waiver to India.
After the NSG waiver, National Security Advisor M K Narayanan told reporters that India would take up the issue with China. For India the opportunity to express displeasure with Beijingâs spoiler role in the NSG presents itself as early as Sunday when Chinese foreign minister Yang Jiechi touches down in India for an official visit.
China, which refused to give India any commitment on supporting the waiver, quietly opposed the waiver on the first day of the meeting. With the group of six countries managing to put up an impressive opposition to the waiver, China was quick to jump on to the naysayers bandwagon which included Austria, Ireland, New Zealand, the Netherlands, Norway and Austria.
By day two of the NSG deliberations, the Chinese representatives were openly making attempts to delay the waiver. The Chinese side asked why countries were being pressured to agree to the waiver, which would allow Indiaâs entry into the nuclear club.
It is understood that US and Indian officials held meetings with the Chinese in a bid to keep them from derailing the waiver and adding weight to the non proliferation enthusiasts. The intense US pressure and last minute contact at the highest political level is said to have stopped Beijing from blocking the waiver.
Even after the waiver, China is understood to have raised questions on a number of issues. In the first reaction to Chinaâs role in the NSG, Mr Narayanan expressed surprise with Chinaâs position and said that the opposition was not ideological like the group of six countries that have a long non proliferation roots.
The strong Chinese position at the NSG meeting took both India and the US by surprise. Indian officials had also dismissed China as a potential spoiler at these proceedings even though Beijing had remained noncommittal on supporting the waiver at all high level interactions.
Though the US and India were both surprised by Chinaâs positioning, an editorial in the Peopleâs Daily newspaper criticising the nuclear deal, was a clear indication of Chinaâs real thoughts on the matter. The editorial in the mouthpiece of the Chinese Communist Party said the deal posed a âmajor blowâ to international nonproliferation.
âWhatever the future of the US-India nuclear agreement, the multiple standard that the US has on the issue of nonproliferation has caused doubts in the world,â the editorial said.
This was followed up by a statement from the Chinese foreign ministry urging caution in supporting the waiver and seeking a balance between the peaceful use of nuclear energy and nonproliferation concerns on weapons development.
Nuclear Thread - 4 - ramana - 09-07-2008
X-posted...
Congratulations everyone! What a long journey from 1974! Reminds one of the Ikshvaku quest to bring the holy Ganga to Mother Earth over many generations. Similarly this quest for dejure recogniton as an NWS has happened during the tenure of many Prime Minsters. Its to the credit of Sri Manmohan Singh that this achievement has happened on his watch. Once again a well deserved kudos!
The prinicpal accomplishment of the NSG waiver is that Indian nukes are legitimate and recognised in the world power structure. This is what has brought out all that angst among the 45 NSG members. The NSG was called the London Suppliers Group and became the NSG and was formed mainly in response to India's 1974 test which created an anamolous situation vis a vis the NPT that only recognised those countries that tested nukes before 1968.
If one sees the statements of the NSG holdouts there are two groups- a non proliferation group which voted for India once thy realized the error of the situation to punish India which has an excellent track record and a proliferation group who are the holdouts. Once the NSG was created in 1978 the members were merrily transferring stuff across the board and preserving options by getting their stuff proofed in TSP and PRC.
From the narrative one can see that there is no lobby for India in any of these nuke related bodies or paltforms. The end of Cold War created the climate to create such a lobby and it was France that first saw the need to hedge the global power structure. But France is not big enough to push the system. It has to be the US. And we see that the US only reacts when presented with a fait accompli as the Israelis note. And this was completed by the NDA govt with the tests. The US stalled for they needed to move from their rigid high horse. A number of geo-politcal events since 9/11 helped them get off their high horse and see the issues from a global prespective.
To alter the NPT structure was uncharted territory and it was the Indian bureaucracy (current and former) which had the foresight to engage the US in this journey. The US was made to move from the NNPA of Carter to the Hyde Act. Yes Hyde has all the bile of the NPAs and is like a sponge to collect the ill will and negativity against India for rocking the NPT structure. Recall the NPT structure was a US initiative of the Johnson Admnistration based on the Gilpatric Commission. India pulled no stops and lobbied to let the Congress mainly Democrats and Paki-supporter Republicans put all the Hiranyakashyap conditions in the Hyde Act. This was reviled widely in India but the main point of Hyde Act is it moved the cheese from no trade with India to trade with India subject to some conditions. The charade/drama after that was to marginalize the adversarial components of Hyde act. To do this the 123 agreement with US was negotiated, the IAEA safeguards and now the NSG waiver.
The US admin at best hopes for a couple of plants as the leaked letter indicates. It cant hope for more due to the Damocles sword components of the Hyde Act. And Hyde gets to hide once the 123 is signed by the Indian govt after its passed by the US Congress.
The torture at Vienna had to be endured to allow the pipsqueak countries which have been brought up over last thirty years (NSG came into effect around 1978), because the need to preserve the NSG structure to prevent further proliferation which is also in Indian interest. It doesnt matter that others countries also benefit. Its a win-win. So long as India gets out of the cloud it doesnt matter who also gets some sunshine.
To get here a natyam had to be enacted. As there is no lobby for India the internal opposition in India had to be used as a pressure group. All the parties especially Karat had their roles to play and they did. I had earlier said the deal would not have been offered to anyone but MMS. Not even if Rahul Gandhi were the head of the state. This is because MMS comes across as sincere West loving person unlike the others who might revert and let their nationalism assert itself. Once it was offered and the cheese moved, it was necessary to keep the fear of a replacement to ensure that the goalposts dont get moved beyond what is tolerable to India. Yes the goal posts were moved since J18 but not so far as they are out of Indian sight and reach. Many of the steps required were what India was going to do as legitimate nuke power. India doesn't need any foreign imports for the weapons program and all those not this not that dont matter to the originators of Vedanta.
PRC did what it had to do for what was at stake was the leadership of Asia. So no hard feelings. Will take care when needed. The holdouts need to be taught their place. A special care should be taken to not place any orders for equipment or imports from those holdouts for starters.
However I dont want NZ to be puished as they were misled into beleiving the NSG BS would end the nuclear arms race. A genuine peacenik should be respected. But the Austrian neutered Nazis who were hedging the non-Norman option, should be made to pay.
The first step is to get the fuel for those plants that need it.
More later.
Lets savor the moment and celebrate!
Its August 15th, 1947 all over again.
Nuclear Thread - 4 - Guest - 09-07-2008
<b>'India has given up on nuclear tests'</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->There is no way that India can conduct nuclear tests now, believes Dr A N Prasad, former director of Bhabha Atomic Research Centre and a staunch opponent of the Indo-US civil nuclear deal.
<b>Speaking on the NSG nod to the India-specific waiver, Dr Prasad told rediff.com, "It is certain that the Indian government has given up hopes of testing nuclear devices in the future."</b>
<b>Dr Prasad added, "At Vienna [Images], they will fix the language but the intent of the entire issue will not be known." </b>
"Since the beginning of this nuclear issue, the discussion has been revolving around India's commitment of voluntary moratorium on testing. Many countries were not satisfied with it. Even the Indian government started talking about that how Indian scientists have already obtained relevant data from the Pokhran tests. It was said that the government has been advised that India does not require to conduct nuclear tests. Public comments were made that now, computer simulation is sufficient to test devices. This shows that the government is reconciled about giving up nuclear tests. Rest of the fight was to avoid the backlash on the issue," he observed.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nuclear Thread - 4 - acharya - 09-07-2008
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->
To get here a natyam had to be enacted. As there is no lobby for India the internal opposition in India had to be used as a pressure group. All the parties especially Karat had their roles to play and they did. I had earlier said the deal would not have been offered to anyone but MMS. Not even if Rahul Gandhi were the head of the state. This is because MMS comes across as sincere West loving person unlike the others who might revert and let their nationalism assert itself. Once it was offered and the cheese moved, it was necessary to keep the fear of a replacement to ensure that the goalposts dont get moved beyond what is tolerable to India. Yes the goal posts were moved since J18 but not so far as they are out of Indian sight and reach. Many of the steps required were what India was going to do as legitimate nuke power. India doesn't need any foreign imports for the weapons program and all those not this not that dont matter to the originators of Vedanta.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It looks like BJP played MMS and UPA/COngress to make sure that the deal passes with Indian red lines. Other wise this waver and Deal would be passed to India if India agreed to a NPT like clause in IAEA/HYDE Act/NSG. MMS was even ready for this since it mattered little to him
Nuclear Thread - 4 - Guest - 09-07-2008
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->SELLOUT!
Pioneer.com
Shobori Ganguli | New Delhi
India gets NSG waiver at huge cost: N-sovereignty
India was, on Saturday, firmly placed under the oppressive guardianship of the Nuclear Suppliers Group with a waiver that invites it into the global nuclear market but at a huge cost -- its nuclear sovereignty.
While India's civilian nuclear requirement can now be met by the 45-nation grouping, it would be done so under stringent NSG guidelines on weapons testing and enrichment technologies that will, in effect, tie India permanently down to a multilateral non-proliferation regime.
If any future Government in New Delhi, in the face of the most serious of security threats, attempts to walk out of its moratorium commitment and upgrades the nuclear arsenal, India would invite the kind of sanctions Iran has.
Significantly, External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee's statement on Friday has been appended to the waiver in the following language: "Based on commitments in the political declaration of the Indian foreign ministry, participating States have decided on the following policy" -- the waiver.
While the waiver text does not mention testing, the fact that the EAM's statement -- which ranges from moratorium on future testing, accessing enrichment technologies, concluding the FMCT, commitment to NSG guidelines and MTCR -- has been appended as an official Indian commitment ties it firmly down.
The final draft of the NSG waiver clearly mentions that a special meeting of the NSG would be convened if India ever breached its commitments.
It is also clear that under certain "circumstances" -- essentially if India detonates a nuclear device -- the NSG members would follow Para 16 of the NSG guidelines. This paragraph specifies that in the event of any recipient country testing a nuclear weapon, the entire group en masse will cut fuel supply to that State.
Admittedly, the NSG works on consensus and any such decision would have to follow the same course. However, the US wields near total influence over the grouping.
As per America's domestic laws on non-proliferation, it is difficult to believe that India will escape punitive action at the hands of other NSG members similarly opposed to proliferation.
In effect, the waiver brings India into the inflexible ambit of NSG rules on proliferation by non-nuclear weapon States.
With Mukherjee's commitment to a self-imposed moratorium on future testing becoming a part of the official document in Vienna, India is now permanently and legally committed to non-proliferation.
By way of the 123 Agreement with the US, India had already committed itself, albeit bilaterally, to the non-proliferation clause since the Hyde Act on which this agreement is based calls for immediate cessation of co-operation in the event of India testing. In this at least, New Delhi retained the right to terminate the deal with the Americans and, at best, loose US faith.
However, the IAEA safeguards agreement and the Additional Protocol India will now sign along with the NSG waiver under specified guidelines, translates this flexible bilateral agreement with one country into a multilaterally rigid requirement.
<b>The Indo-US nuclear deal will travel to the US Congress which begins its 18-day session on Monday.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nuclear Thread - 4 - Guest - 09-07-2008
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Congress claims victory in defeat </b>
Pioneer News Service | New Delhi
Opp calls it a black day
Historic moment' or 'Black Day'? Reactions to the nuclear deal show how Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's nuclear pursuit has left the nation divided and sown doubts in a large section which feels India's dream of emerging as a major nuclear power has been shattered.
While Singh led the drumbeaters of the deal in hailing the "the historic moment," the main Opposition BJP and the Left unleashed a sharp attack on the Government , accusing it of bartering India's strategic interests to the US.
In a rare convergence, the Left, Right and Centrist parties, as well as many regional forces representing nearly half the elected representatives in Parliament, condemned "compromising the nation's sovereignty". This sets the stage for a bitter confrontation between the ruling coalition and the Opposition in the run-up to the Lok Sabha election.
Reacting to the NSG waiver, BJP vice-president Yashwant Sinha said: "The BJP believes India has fallen into the NPT trap and forever lost the right to conduct nuclear tests."
B<b>SP chief Mayawati, another strong opponent of the deal, dubbed the development in Vienna as a "black day" for the country, a view shared by the CPI as well.</b>
Taking a dig at the Congress' stand that this was a historic day, Sinha said, "far from being a historic day, it is a historic shame. The Congress says apartheid in the nuclear field has come to an end. But this apartheid came after the 1974 nuclear test. So is the Congress now discarding the legacy of Indira Gandhi?" he asked.
Sinha said the US wanted this deal as it saw India as a lucrative market for N-fuel supply. Nuclear electricity will be very expensive and would be available only after decades. Sinha alleged that there were "many, many hidden deals" behind the NSG waiver.
Sinha said the deal does not specify whether there would be uninterrupted nuclear fuel supply to Indian reactors. "Will the US ensure lifetime fuel supply to a reactor as was being discussed. Each reactor has a lifetime of 40 years," Sinha said.
<b>"Considering the compromises made by India to get this deal, it would have been better had India signed the NPT directly,"</b> he said.
<b>"The deal leaves many undecided issues. We are not getting dual use technology or enrichment and reprocessing technology. But still we are giving up our right to test. </b>
Had we signed NPT & CTBT it would have been less onerous," he said.
He said the government had promised in Parliament that India will get "clean and unconditional" waiver but later "unconditional was dropped unconditionally".
<b>"India has deliberately raised the stakes against testing. It is like inviting the death sentence on India,"</b> he said.
The CPI(M) said, India has neither got a clean nor an unconditional waiver and de-facto accepted the NPT. "If this is the case, it is yet another surrender," politburo member Sitaram Yechury said.
RSP General Secretary T J Chandrachoodan said there was no reason to rejoice as the ground work had been done by the US. "Our objection is to the Hyde Act and we will continue to fight against the nuclear deal."
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Nuclear Thread - 4 - ravish - 09-07-2008
The main argument put forward by the opponents to the deal, particularly the Pioneer, the Left Leaders and the BJP is that India has given up its right to conduct nuclear test.
What would be the consequence of such a test? Cutting off of fuel supply for the nuclear power plants that we may build in the future consequent upon signing the present deal.
At present the position is that India has built up a nuclear deterrent force that would take care of the immediate threat posed to our national security. The perfection and fine tuning of the delivery system can continue as it does not fall under any of the present agreements under discussion. Now a stage may come when it is felt that the present nuclear warheads in possession of India are perhaps outdated or not capable of handling some new threat perception and needs replacement by more advance atomic and nuclear devices.
In such a situation, the Indian decision makers have to take a decision as to whether they can risk disruption of nuclear fuel supply to the power plants and go ahead with the testing of a new nuclear device. If for preservation of India as a nation requires that we take the risk, we should go ahead with the decision and face the consequences. However, it must be remembered that the deterrent value of any nuclear device is the same and its actual destructive power will not play a major part in changing the course of events , or the political and human fallouts.
On the other hand, if the destiny of India is left to the Pioneer and D. Raja to decide, we will have no access to the latest technology needed for the construction of the nuclear power plants and we cannot trade with the world at large for purchasing nuclear fuel. We will have to continue constructing more thermal power plants and adding to global warming and pollution problems. In view of this it is perhaps the most conscious decision that has been taken in recent times by the Indian decision makers which has ensured the lifting of all restrictions on India and it is now free to do trade with the members of the nuclear supplier group.
Another aspect needs to be borne in mind. There is nothing static or permanent in international diplomacy. On a future date, depending upon how much clout India may have developed in the international arena â will be the deciding factor on the consequences of going in for a new nuclear test. It may get condoned despite whatever agreement is in place. We are just witness to how India specific decision and concessions have been extended to us by the IAEA members. Such special gestures cannot be ruled out in future.
Therefore, I would like to sincerely request the learned members of this forum to ponder over the issue and the finer points of the matter to come to a conclusion rather than blindly cutting and pasting the media reports particularly that of the Pioneer. Come to a decision on your own before crying out that all is lost.
Jai Hind
Nuclear Thread - 4 - Husky - 09-07-2008
Why so glum?
Why should this treaty be taken as anything more than something which the unrepresentative christocongressi government signed with foreign christo governments elsewhere. And they did so without publicly presenting the details of their agreement earlier or even now.
Why then should it be binding on the nation (into the future, and under other governments)? Yes, US wants to keep congress in power in India and is doing everything to ensure that (supporting islamiterrorism in India in their media, helping other countries to buy up media in India for widening the net of their subversion, giving university chairs and associate professorships to their subversionist minions in India like communist Thapar and the Anganas, sending Kenneth Haywoods to aid SIMI and christoterrorist missionaries, telling their thoughtless converted sheep who to vote for, etcetera). US papers have even declared that Raoul Goonda is the "crown prince" of India, long before <i>democratic</i> India has even voted. One can only wonder how they know with such certainty who's going to be heading the country unless they plan to meddle, as always, in other countries' affairs.
But we can and should treat this accord with the same 'gravitas' that the ever-faithless christo-America showed toward its treaties with NA's native Americans: break it when and how we want to. Therefore, India should test when we want to. This piece of paper can meanwhile keep America and likeminded nations euphoric.
There is no dishonour in breaking deals with christoterrorist countries that have acted adharmicly towards others. There is only disgrace in entering agreements with such 'nations' in the first place, particularly if we do so with the intention to keep to our end of the bargain. MMS/his boss is representative of only the subversionists and the brainwashed - i.e. no one important - in India.
How much did Madmoron Stink pocket from his foreign masters for getting the job done for them?
Nuclear Thread - 4 - Guest - 09-07-2008
Somebody ask , how much energy is produced by Narora Nuclear Plant, then Congress Party Indira Gandhi told country that electricity will cost 7 paisa. I still have to see 7Paisa, on top of that it was constructed on Ganga. Till date Narora never worked its half capacity.
In reality, Babus and Congress pocket money for enjoyment and election. English media is bought by external entities.
These people are ready to give-up security as Nehru did on stupid Menon advice on China war. India had no shortage of fools, traitors and history is full of traitors and fools who gave up security for short term goal, greed and self gratification
Everytime these people comes with reasoning that India will be showered with latest technology and think Indian citizens are fools. Why on the earth they will give access to latest technology? I call it under dope effect. These people have no concept of Anglo-Saxon brotherhood. Traitors of India ready to pay for obsolete technology rather then go for indigenous technology and want to remain dependent or object of blackmail for ever.
Problem is Congress Gestapo service is not working because of alternate media resources; nobody buys what garbage comes out of Govt press release.
Everyone is saying <b>Chor Hai</b>.
Why whole deal was not transparent? Why Shame of India, Manmohan SIngh, who is not even elected is making decisions?
I can understand India is communist-lite country.
Plain and simple top to bottom Indian corrupt Govt and Babus get paid heavily and they sold India's interest to liquidation sale.
Karma will bite them. Traitors always gets their place in history.
Nuclear Thread - 4 - Husky - 09-07-2008
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Sep 7 2008, 10:21 AM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Sep 7 2008, 10:21 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ravish+Sep 7 2008, 08:20 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ravish @ Sep 7 2008, 08:20 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->What would be the consequence of such a test? Cutting off of fuel supply for the nuclear power plants that we may build in the future consequent upon signing the present deal.
[right][snapback]87641[/snapback][/right]
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Dear Sir, apologize for using this expression, but your (mis-)information lays bare your sheer ignorance of the consequences of a future nuclear test. That is, one beleives you are not lying, just being ignorant not ready to open your eyes.
Here is what it means if India decides to conduct a nuclear test.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>"Should India, <span style='color:blue'>in the judgement of the US, step outside its commitments, even if the Agreement is terminated, even if it expires, even if India repudiates it, the US shall have the right to get back every bit of nuclear material, every bit of non-nuclear material, every reactor, component, every ounce of fuel it has supplied under the Agreement."</span></span>
Above is quoted from the just revealed letter of the Bush Administration, and particularly in answers to questions 41 and 42 asked by the Congress of mlechCha-s.
and there is more:
<span style='color:red'>"We (the USA) have been very clear with the Indians that the permanence of the safeguards is the permanence of safeguards without condition."</span>
Which means no matter what now happens to the suoplies, India's identified reactors are committed by India to be perpetually placed under IAEA safegard (read USA inspectors), yes sir, even if you scrap the deal unilaterally, or is scrapped by conducting a test.
and much more:
"the Hyde Act obliges American President to bring upon Indians the full weight of sanctions, using all means at their disposal"
Stopping the fuel supply is not even the beginning of those sanctions. And no, dont compare it with the sanctions applied to India earlier -- as at that time in their view we had not "broken any law", but if we do conduct a test now, we shall be doing just that.[right][snapback]87648[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
!!!
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->"Should India, in the judgement of the US, step outside its commitments, even if the Agreement is terminated, even if it expires, even if India repudiates it, <b>the US shall have the right to get back</b> every bit of nuclear material, every bit of non-nuclear material, every reactor, component, every ounce of fuel it has supplied under the Agreement."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->In America's christoterrorist parlance "shall have the right to get back" (as opposed to 'shall have the right to ask to be returned') means use of force extending even into invasion if India does not comply. Note also the use of "in the judgement of the US" - that just means whenever the trigger-happy US decides India has stepped out of line.
It's christo-blackmail.
But let them try it.
India should at present ask for the immediate return of all its looted Hindu treasures that have now ended up on American shores (including the $250-million or $25-million? worth Hope Diamond). Or else "<i>Get</i> These Back". Plus all the use of Hindu technology (from catamarans to Samskritam), including wherever they have been used by the christoterrorists.
US is subverting Indian democracy to their own interests.
Iranian Zoroastrian nationalists have repeatedly declared they will not honour treaties that the alien islamic terrorist government of Iran has undergone to sign over Iran's wealth of fuel to US, Japan and other nations taking advantage of the oppressed True Iranians' plight.
Similarly, Dharmics of Bharatam should declare we will never honour the agreements imposed by the christo government of India - agreements which have been entered into with christoterrorist nations that have duped our nation into this situation.
Nuclear Thread - 4 - ravish - 09-07-2008
Mr Buddha, do take a realistic view taking into consideration the happenings in the last few months. How was India able to get through to the present position in the first place? Despite Chinese opposition to the deal in the end we find that the IAEA has agreed to give special status to India. Even Ireland, New Zealand and a few others fell in line. It is not because of any sudden overnight thought of love and affection for poor India.
The decision by these countries was dictated purely by economic considerations. The fast growing Indian market and the huge business investment that the West is making or thinks of making in the future was a major deciding factor. The great interest taken by the major world powers to ensure that India gets through at the IAEA was obviously not due to the concern for the power crisis that India is facing. They want the speeding up of our power availability and infrastructural development. This would provide a huge market to these countries as India will need a wide range of equipment and services from these developed countries.
Therefore, in the event of India testing some nuclear device on a future date, it is impossible to think of US B-52 Bombers and Cruise Missiles landing in Mumbai and surrounding areas to destroy Western and US investments causing huge loss to the foreign corporations. The US President of the day will have to think of contributions that these corporate entities will make at the time of his or her re election or so that matter to the party funds.
In international diplomacy, particularly in the present time, before taking a punitive military action, one has to carefully study the economic impact of such action.. In the given case, today US has so much trade ties with India that it will not destroy such trade links simply to give effect to any agreement/ arrangement/conditions not in consonance with the thinking and likings of Delhi.
Nuclear Thread - 4 - Bodhi - 09-07-2008
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Therefore, in the event of India testing some nuclear device on a future date, it is impossible to think of US B-52 Bombers and Cruise Missiles landing in Mumbai and surrounding areas to destroy Western and US investments causing huge loss to the foreign corporations. The US President of the day will have to think of contributions that these corporate entities will make at the time of his or her re election or so that matter to the party funds.
In international diplomacy, particularly in the present time, before taking a punitive military action, one has to carefully study the economic impact of such action.. In the given case, today US has so much trade ties with India that it will not destroy such trade links simply to give effect to any agreement/ arrangement/conditions not in consonance with the thinking and likings of Delhi.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dear Sir,
I do not know what gave you an idea that I had even hinted at an immediate military strike from leukonations in the event of India test detonating nuclear devices. Punitive actions come in so many forms and not military invasion alone.
But you do admit, (dont you?), that the consequence of a potential tests post-"nuclear deal" are humongous as opposed to before. Any future regime in New Delhi will be heavily encumbered with so severe fall-outs of a test, that presently it doesn't seem possible for them to still go ahead with a test. The outcome really is the same as joining CTBT/NPT without really signing it. In face of that your assertion that the consequence of tests is "Cutting off of fuel supply for the nuclear power plants", is so simplistic that it appears quite infantile.
One does think the objective of the earth-worm-like eunuch prime minister who always opposed India possessing nuclear weapons, has fulfilled that secret objective of his heart. The way the moron and his mistress were ready to sacrifice the Govt. over the "deal", speaks in abundance about their motives.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->do take a realistic view<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is you who needs to wake up and take a realistic view.
Nuclear Thread - 4 - Guest - 09-08-2008
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>A crippling deal </b>
The Pioneer Edit Desk
India now joins nuclear have-nots
<b>The officially-sponsored celebrations of India's so-called 'victory' in Vienna and the amazing presentation of crude propaganda, meant to whitewash the Prime Minister's deceitful role in compromising the nation's interests, as 'facts' by a section of the media, which has clearly parted company with all notions of free and fair reportage, cannot hide the simple truth:</b> We have lost our sovereign right to chart an independent nuclear policy, of which strategic deterrence is an important component. If prior to the July 18, 2005 joint statement, which was issued after Mr Manmohan Singh's meeting with President George W Bush, we were seen as a nuclear weapons state, today that status has been scornfully denied to us, courtesy the Prime Minister's unseemly haste to conclude the India-US nuclear agreement before he and Mr Bush exit office. No less unseemly has been Mr Singh's consistent efforts to mislead the nation through half-truths and untruths. As a result, India has been forced to pay a heavy price; we and future generations will continue to pay a heavier price. This severely blotted deal is not about "full civil nuclear energy cooperation" or India acquiring "the same benefits and advantages" as the US. It is about India being made to mortgage its sovereign right to a cartel that sways to America's tune; it is about sacrificing our strategic nuclear programme at the altar of perverse non-proliferation that denies India its rightful place at the high table of the the nuclear haves. With the adoption of the neither 'clean' nor 'unconditional' waiver agreement, drafted by the US to promote American interests and suppress Indian aspirations, the NSG has formally pushed India into the ranks of non-nuclear weapons states; worse, it has deftly converted our voluntary moratorium on further nuclear tests into a legally-binding multilateral obligation.
The Prime Minister's many declarations, all of them bereft of truth, now lie in tatters. His promised "removal of restrictions on all aspects of cooperation and technology transfers pertaining to civil nuclear energy" is not happening. His pledge to undertake "the same responsibilities and obligations" and "expect the same rights and benefits" as the US has turned out to be bogus. That he should describe the sellout as a "forward looking and momentous decision" does not come as a surprise -- his triumph is the nation's defeat. After Saturday, India has been straitjacketed by non-proliferation regimes whose real purpose is to perpetuate the divide between the nuclear haves and the nuclear have-nots. Worse, by allowing the US to craftily link, with the Prime Minister's approval, exports to India to mandatory compliance with Part 1 and Part 2 of the NSG Guidelines, every word and action will now be put under close scrutiny; if it suits the interests of the US, they will be seized upon for punitive action. This also restricts India's options: Paragraph 4(e) of Part 2 of the NSG Guidelines asserts that a supplier-state must first consider, before making any transfer, "Whether governmental actions, statements, and policies of the recipient state are supportive of nuclear non-proliferation and whether the recipient state is in compliance with its international obligations in the field of non-proliferation." And while we have been forced into binding obligations and inspections in perpetuity, the Prime Minister has agreed to the US and its cartel dropping all pretence of assured fuel supplies. This way lies the path to making India dependent on the US. A path that others have taken only to regret it.
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Nuclear Thread - 4 - Guest - 09-08-2008
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Run run run!!! hiding tail between legs, lesson one gets from cowards.
Nuclear Thread - 4 - acharya - 09-08-2008
BJP will renegotiate N-deal if comes to power: Sushma Swaraj
Jaipur (PTI): Expressing her apprehensions about the Indo-US nuclear deal, senior BJP leader Sushma Swaraj on Sunday said that if the party come to power it will renegotiate the pact.
Making a scathing attack on Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Swaraj alleged that Singh for his own prestige has put India's sovereignty at stake on the nuclear deal issue.
Though the 16 years embargo against India has been lifted by NSG at Vienna meeting but the country has lost its sovereignty, Swaraj said at a press conference here.
Dismissing UPA's claim that the deal was historic, Swaraj compared it with Moghul emperor Jehangir regime when he had permitted the East India Company for trading and in the process India became a slave for more than 250 years.
She said after the exposure of US President George Bush letter's to Burney it became clear that if India go for nuclear tests the deal would be nullified.
The BJP, Swaraj said, will oppose the deal in the parliament. It will also hold rallies and meetings to create public awareness about its impact on India's interests.
Replying to a query, she said there is difference between the BJP and Left's opposition to the deal. "The reasons and intentions of both the parties are different," she said.
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When asked why BJP is opposing the deal when it itself had initiated it, Swaraj said, though her party had initiated the deal but it is against India opening up 35 of its reactors for inspection to IAEA. BJP wanted only one of the reactors to be under the purview of IAEA inspection, she said.
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Nuclear Thread - 4 - ravish - 09-08-2008
Nothing can stop India from testing again- KALAM
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Nothing can stop India from testing again: Kalam
Pallava Bagla
Sunday, September 07, 2008, (New Delhi)
The Missile Man of India, former President Dr APJ Abdul Kalam, who has supported the Indo-US nuclear deal previously also, spoke exclusively to NDTV in his first reaction a day after the NSG waiver to the nuke deal.
Kalam described how the nuclear deal is good for India, what more does he foresee apart from the waiver and the final pact and on any possible Pokharan III. He also spoke about what he told Mulayam Singh and others that saved the present UPA government and about his relationship with the PM.
The former President said that political groups should come forward, leaving behind their political inclination. They must see to it that the Uranium mines of the country are opened so that our scientists use the Uranium materials what is available within the country, he said.
Here are the excerpts of what Dr Kalam's told NDTV's Science Editor Pallava Bagla in an interview:
On politicians
I have not only told them but many other political leaders. They met me and I told them that India-US nuclear pact is very important in national interest. It is going to help the nation and particularly in the power sector and we should do everything as a nation we should go ahead.
Of course, it is of national interest since I am looking like this. So far India was not in the so called nuclear cub, so we became a part of the nuclear house. So, certainly it is an endorsement to that situation.
And second thing is, I look at it in a different way - we have number of nuclear reactors and all of them are Uranium based reactors. So Uranium, of course, we have shortage even though our many states have got a potential. compared to Thorium we have a limited resource.
So, we need to power our nuclear power reactors for full capacity we need Uranium, this waiver and the pact that we are going to sign is definitely going to assist us in the electricity generation using nuclear reactors.
Well, you see supreme national interest, ok, every country got supreme national interest, any pact or any treaty when the national interest comes in, becomes the highest priority.
On nuclear fuel
We already have a certain reserve of Uranium and this will be the power our nuclear reactors, all of them and future reactors also. But I am pushing, our nuclear scientists are working very hard on Thorium-based nuclear reactor, even then we need some Uranium.
Even then, even Thorium based nuclear reactors that Uranium that we have will become a reserve till then, we buy.
On energy independence
My only interest is energy independence. This is going to help us. This is going to assist us. This energy waiver and the pact will assist us. My only mission is how do you make nuclear power that is electricity using nuclear reactors by the 2030 say about 50,000 MW of power.
Any political system, any political party, the nation is of prime importance. All parties have to work for the nation that is my message. Does it meets your political requirements
On India's road ahead
We have not yet signed the pact but we got the NSG waiver, that is the first step.
Well I am happy, I am happy about the NSG waiver but I'll be more happier on two events if they take place in my country.
First event will be that all the states, there are a few states in our country that have got Uranium reserve. Irrespective of political inclination, they must see to it that the Uranium mines are opened so that our scientists use the Uranium materials what is available within the country.
Secondly, our nuclear scientists say it will take 10 years to become Thorium-based nuclear reactors, they must do it in 5-7 years in mission mode. They should be a number of fast breed and nuclear fast breed reactors.
That waiver, what I am saying, it will be available for us whom the nuclear reactor gets in. But this should be a reserve for us. But mines should be available. Of course, I always get good sleep, no problem.
On the Prime Minister
Well, we talk number of times, we talk a number of times. We are in touch with each other. I respect him, he talks to me, no problem. Yes he called me (after the waiver). I am happy with him.
On Pokharan II and Pokharan III
Pokharan II is actually our nuclear scientist. They all worked together and you know I believe when you say, when you declare moratorium for nuclear test, what does this mean - you have built certain capability and you can build certain types of nuclear weapons with that confidence you said - I will not conduct any more test.
Temporarily, a moratorium you have put, so I believe that is very important. It is an important message. That means we have certain capability, we can do certain types of system.
Now whether we can do further test - you see there is always supreme national interest. When the supreme national interest is there, no pact no treaty nothing can come in between in a nation that is supreme sovereign interest.
So in that case suppose India decides it has to go for supreme sovereign, that means international situation made the nation to do a test.
It has to do a test then the question comes in - now there is a pact we have, they can see the reason why the international situation they are forcing us to the test. Well then the waiver, the pact may stay or the second thing is they may withdraw. but the national interest is always the highest priority.
India will do the test in the supreme national interest, nobody can stop, nobody can stop, but in that case, your question is - what happens to the pact - two things may happed, the may still stand, they may see why you have done the test. There is a reason why we did the test. Otherwise they'll say goodbye, and we'll say goodbye.
Supreme national interest of the nation is to be protected. I am happy there. I told you when supreme national interest comes in - India has to decide, because nothing can come in between.
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Now it will be the people's verdict which will indicate the fall out of the complete sell out to the US and others by the present Government.It would perhaps be3 appropriate to resume this discussion, once the new Government is in power at New Delhi after the elections.