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+--- Thread: Gujarat Riots - 2 (/showthread.php?tid=731)
Gujarat Riots - 2 - Guest - 08-14-2005
Just a stupid question... We had the an equivalent to civil war in '47 where over 500K Indians were killed which even the stalwarts like Patel, Nehru and Gandhi couldn't prevent or "deter". The frequent killings continued every couple years - some years more than others - Gujarat '69(majority killed were Hindus) and Nellie '83(it was muslims who lost the most here) and Delhi '84 (Sikhs lost the most here) were the worst when the death toll was in four figures.
Now this is fact and can't be disputed no matter how one can spin it.
abhishek, are we just a bunch of murdering thugs that we have never learnt the lessons of past or there's a some interesting revelations from Godhara '02 that you have learnt which was never applicable before. Please explain.
Gujarat Riots - 2 - Bharatvarsh - 08-14-2005
"2. Equal Respect of all Religions - Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Jains, .. all."
And why should respect all religions equally, secularism in its true definition means complete separation of religion and state, it was never meant to mean equal respect for all religions. I as a Hindu cannot respect a hateful religion like Islam, time we discarded this garbage slogan of equal respect to all religions and followed some real secularism.
Gujarat Riots - 2 - Guest - 08-15-2005
Godhara'02 is not a revelation but for a person who was born in 1980 it indeed is the first time when i have experienced such a horrendous thing. So it creates a perspective keeping this particular incident in my mind. If i would have been a 20 year old during the time of partition all my preaching would have been a little different.
I can just understand or atmost try to understand the horrendous events of direct action day or partition but i can never experience it. So ya there is a little problem over here. Recently after reading the details of 1984 riots my disgust for the gandhi family has reached its pinnacle.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Let me humbly request how do i accept the comparison????.
How do i accept that two wrongs make a right???.
This conclusion is a moral judgement based on an unqualified normative claim. Going by this line of thinking, whole legal system should go out the window as "two wrongs never make a right" <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is there no distinction between a guilty and an innocent. The legal system unsures that an innocent person is never ever punished(exceptions are there but generally it does not happen). It has a system of evidence collection and trial and based on facts a guilty is given punishment, even death. So when a legal system gives punishment to a guilty it does a right to a wrong and not a wrong to a wrong. In rioting you are killing someone just because he is associated with that religion or community or sometimes country. The person has nothing to do at all with the crime. This comparison is what i call sophistry. Trying to paint the whole crime into the community. What we call the feudal mindset. Where if a member of the family does a crime, punish the whole family. We have been able to develop a better justice system. Lets have faith in that system. Lets make it work.
As regards "hindu guilt". I guess i never used this term. This is a secularists term, and most importantly there feeling where somehow they feel obligated to protect the minority where there is no need. Ya as regards a wrong. It is a wrong. Riots in gujrat were a horrendous mistake according to me. There are better ways. We will just make one fellow indian against another fellow indian who will then make plots against us and kill us and if he his given a chance he will kill us in riots also.
Abhishek
Gujarat Riots - 2 - G.Subramaniam - 08-15-2005
Would Gujurat methods save the hindus of west bengal
----
Subj: Press Release: Hindu Woman raped by Muslim-Mob in West Bengal...first hand report by Tathagata Roy, Prez
Dated August 07, 2005
Shri L.K.Advani, National President, BJP
Shri Rajnath Singh, Observer, West Bengal (camp : Kolkata)
Shri Vijay Kumar Malhotra, Dy. Party Leader, Lok Sabha
Sm. Sushma Swaraj, Dy. Party Leader, Rajya Sabha
Shri Sushil Modi M.P.
Shri Kharabela Swain, M.P.
Please find below a report on the heinous gang-rape and murder of a Hindu girl near Raiganj, Dt. North Dinajpur, followed by attempts on the part of the Police to hide the factum of rape, and the unlawful arrest and torture of some RSS Pracharaks and others. The murder was further followed by an unprovoked Police firing of more than 100 rounds in which at least two people have been killed, and several injured. The brutality that the Police exhibited was no less than what happened at Gurgaon.
Raiganj, incidentally, is Priya Ranjan Das Munsiâs Parliamentary Constituency, and very close to the Bangladesh border. Illicit organizations such as SIMI and the âJagroto Muslim Janataâ (a Bangladesh-based Islamic fundamentalist organization led by one Siddiqul Islam @ âBangla Bhaiâ, are active here.
Please try to raise this matter on the floor of either house of the Parliament.
(Tathagata Roy)
President, BJP, West Bengal
REPORT ON THE VISIT OF TATHAGATA ROY, PRESIDENT, BJP, WEST BENGAL, TO RAIGANJ, DT. NORTH DINAJPUR, WEST BENGAL
AUGUST 05, 2005
By
TATHAGATA ROY
President, BJP, West Bengal
On receiving news on 4th August 2005 afternoon that there had been heavy Police firing in Raiganj in the wake of the gang-rape and brutal murder of a Hindu girl and several Sangha Pracharaks, and BJP and other Vividh Sangathana Karyakartas had been arrested, I proceeded to Raiganj and reached there on 5th August morning. Thereafter I held detailed discussions with our Karyakartas as well as those of the Sangha and other Vividh Sangathanas, as also with Shri Meena, IG (North Bengal) of the West Bengal Police, Shri Sanyal, SP, North Dinajpur district, Shri Nilkanta Das, father of the deceased girl, his neighbours, S/Shri Gobinda Ghosh, Vibhag Pracharak, RSS and Shyamal Pal, GS(Orgzn), BJP of North and South Dinajpur districts, and a Sangha Pracharak, two persons injured in police firing and undergoing treatment at Raiganj Govt. Hospital, and Shri Pradhan, Officer-in-Charge Hemtabad P.S., also undergoing treatment at Raiganj Govt. Hospital. I visited the village Kasba Mahaso (near Kamalabari), P.S. Hemtabad, Dt. North Dinajpur, where the crime took place and the Raiganj Jail where the arrested persons are held in custody. On the basis of the same I have the following to report.
The late Pratima Das @ Felani, d/o Nilkanta Das aged about 14, of village Kasba Mahaso, P.S. Hemtabad, Dt. North Dinajpur, was being stalked and teased by four Muslim youths named Hero Mohammed (24) s/o Rafiqul, Martuza Md. (28) s/o Saqul Md., Hussain Ansari (22) s/o Aso Md., and Mukhtar Ali (20), s/o Sabul Md. Of the same village. Nilkanta Das is an illiterate farmer of very modest means. Nilkanta had more than once told Rafiqul, father of Hero, of the incident, and had warned him that he would go to the police if the teasing persisted. On 2nd August 2005 as Nilkanta was returning from field, he was informed by his nephew and a few others that Pratima had been killed. According to one Sm. Pal, a teacher of the local school and the wife of a Congress leader, Pratima had been found in a jute field nearby in a nearly naked state, her private parts bloodied and marks of biri-burns on her face. She had been strangulated to death with a piece of green jute stalk.
The police were informed and took away the body for post-mortem examination. Meanwhile the word got round that an innocent girl had been tortured, gang-raped and murdered in this manner. When even until 3rd August midday the body was not available a huge crowd gradually collected at the village near Nilkanta Dasâs house. They then barricaded the main road in protest against the murder â a very common form of protest in West Bengal. A police party under the leadership of Shri Mahendra Nath Diu, the SDO, then arrived and asked them to remove the blockade. A large number among the villagers were Sangh Swayamsevaks, and had informed the Vibhag Pracharak Shri Gobinda Ghosh about it, and Shri Ghosh arrived with Shri Shyamal Pal, another Pracharak and the General Secretary (Organisation) of the BJP for the district. They tried to pacify the crowd which was getting more and more restive. The SDO then asked them to remove the block within ten minutes, failing which he said he would order a lathi-charge. Shri Ghosh and Pal told him not to take any precipitate steps, and tried to pacify the crowd. However, the crowd was incensed and would not listen so easily. Shri Ghosh and Pal kept telling them that the administration had basically accepted whatever they wanted, and they should now disperse peacefully.
Until this point there is very little difference between what I learnt from our party and Sangh sources and what was said by Shri Sanyal, the SP. Beyond this the versions differ. Shri Sanyal said that after some time S/Shri Ghosh and Pal told them that they could not help the matter, as the crowd was not listening to them. Then the crowd started pelting stones at the police and the police had to fire in self-defence. It is generally agreed that more than 100 rounds were fired. On the other hand our party workers present at the spot said that while S/Shri Ghosh and Pal were trying to reason with the crowd, someone, presumably the SDO suddenly ordered a lathi-charge, and thereafter the situation went out of control. The people killed in the firing were of course all innocent bystanders. S/Shri Ghosh and Pal were rounded up and brought to the Hemtabad P.S. where they were roundly thrashed with lathis. Shri Pal seemed to have suffered some kind of hemorrhage, and possibly a fracture, on one of his wrists, and Shri Ghosh possibly has one or more rib fractures, because of which he could not talk very well. When they were produced in Court on 4th August the Magistrate is said to have taken note of the fact that they were both injured and ordered their treatment in the Jail Hospital while ordering Jail Custody for them till 19th August. Apart from the two of them another four persons, namely S/Shri Dinesh Sarkar of the RSS and Rakesh Roy, Dilip Pramanik and Bileshwar Singh of the ABVP, were also arrested, beaten up and thrown into jail. They are apparently meant to be charged u/ss 147, 148, 149,333,353,427,153A,307,120B,337 and 338 of the IPC.
When I spoke to the SP and IG I asked them that even assuming what the SP was saying was true, the Sangh functionaries were at the most guilty of incompetence, having first committed to control the crowd, and later expressing their inability about it. How could such action be construed as chargeable under serious sections such as 307 (Attempted Murder), 153A (Communal Provocation) etc.? The IG and SP had no answer and advised me to engage competent lawyers to bail them out.
It is now clear that this arrest was done only to try to prove that the RSS had given provocation for the rioting, which forced the Police to do first a Lathi-charge and thereafter fire with level guns. The intention was to prove in one stroke that the RSS are guilty and the Police are innocent. This ill-motive of the government became clear when on the same evening Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee announced rejection of our demand for Judicial Enquiry, and in the same breath said that an all-party meeting would be convened the very next day, but the âRSS would not be called to the meeting on the grounds that they were themselves involved in the riotingâ. The BJP were, however, called.
Another sordid aspect of the whole incident was an attempt on the part of the police, with the connivance of the autopsy surgeon, to prove that there was no rape, only a simple case of murder; possibly because rape, more than murder, might result in a greater embarrassment for the administration, and greater polarization of popular opinion. When four young men strangle a penniless young girl to death in a jute field, it is clear that they did not do Puja to the girl before the heinous murder, they gang-raped her. Yet the post mortem report has tried to point at signs which would indicate that there was no rape. The factum of rape would, of course be conclusively established only after forensic examination of the vaginal swab, which has not yet been done. Yet, in the post-mortem report there are remarks like âHymen intact, deceasedâs underclothes not in disarrayâ, etc. There is no mention whether the underclothes contain any semen marks or blood. Contrary to what eye-witness Mrs. Pal had stated, there is no mention of biri-burn marks on the face.
It is worth mentioning in this connection that The CPI(M) government has always been extremely anxious to hide cases of gang-rape, especially where the perpetrators are Muslim and the victims are Hindu women (as is usually the case). This had happened in the cases of gang-rapes that occurred in the wake of Panchayat elections in West Bengal 2003. There were three such cases : under Dhantala P.S. in district Nadia ; under Goaltor P.S. in district Pashchim Medinipur ; and under Budbud P.S. in district Bardhaman. The first two were investigated by the National Womensâ Commission, as a result of which the truth came out in the open, but the third one was hushed up
Gujarat Riots - 2 - Guest - 08-16-2005
How do you solve a problem like this Maria... !?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->SC notice to Centre, AIMPLB and Darul Uloom on Islamic courts
Press Trust of India
New Delhi, August 16, 2005
      Â
Alarmed by a petition pointing out a parallel Islamic judiciary handling "Imrana" type cases, the Supreme Court on Tuesday issued notices to the Centre, All India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) and Islamic seminary Darul Uloom.
A Bench comprising Justice YK Sabharwal and Justice CK Thakker also issued notices to Uttar Pradesh, Haryana, Assam, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, West Bengal and Delhi, where, according to the petition, Islamic courts have been formed posing a challenge to the judicial system of the country.
Petitioner Vishwa Lochan Madan, seeking immediate dissolution of all Islamic and Shariat courts in India, said the AIMPLB claimed to have established Darul Qaza (Muslim Courts) in Thane (Maharashtra), Akola Dholiya (Rajasthan), Indore (MP), South and East Delhi, Asansol and Purulia (WB), Lucknow and Sitapur (UP).
Citing the fatwa issued by the Deoband-based seminary Darul-Uloom in Imrana rape case and the stand of AIMPLB, the petitioner said the criminal law was not allowed to have its natural run as the entire issue was hijacked by the clerics.
He cited the example of the case of Asoobi in Gurgaon, Haryana, resembling the case of Imrana, where the Darul Uloom issued fatwas deciding the course of action in the incidents.
The petitioner sought a ban on establishment of such Islamic courts, a declaration that these fatwas have no legal sanctity and requested the Court to direct the Centre and the states to take effective steps to dissolve all Darul Qazas and Shariat Courts.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gujarat Riots - 2 - Guest - 08-17-2005
<!--QuoteBegin-abhishek_d+Aug 15 2005, 12:04 AM-->QUOTE(abhishek_d @ Aug 15 2005, 12:04 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Is there no distinction between a guilty and an innocent. The legal system unsures that an innocent person is never ever punished(exceptions are there but generally it does not happen). It has a system of evidence collection and trial and based on facts a guilty is given punishment, even death. So when a legal system gives punishment to a guilty it does a right to a wrong and not a wrong to a wrong. In rioting you are killing someone just because he is associated with that religion or community or sometimes country. The person has nothing to do at all with the crime. This comparison is what i call sophistry. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah! I missed this one...
So, you are saying that there can be no comparison between former (individual right and wrong n "Corrections") AND latter ( riots n mob actions) categories.
Also, pray tell us, how does "ideology" of any sort play into the latter category as you view it, since there should be ideological influence on the former (but it has in India anyway) and how you account for it while dispensing justice (right, wrong and all those troublesome moral issues)
Then how do you propose using "legal system" whic is the tool of the former category to avert / rectify incidents that belong to latter category?
I am confused now, to steal <!--emo&N^3--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/n3.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='n3.gif' /><!--endemo--> line, I am kindergartner onleee.. <!--emo&:lol:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Gujarat Riots - 2 - Guest - 08-30-2005
<b>Zahira protected by VHP, 'finds' SC panel</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The committee had been asked on January 10 this year to examine why Zahira kept changing her testimony. Tehelka also found that Zahira now lives in a house in Vadodara which can easily be mistaken for a Hindu home. A portrait of Ganesh is embedded in the wall, a swastika and an Om are emblazoned on the door. The location indicates that the Sheikh family wants to escape the gaze of the media. The abode is in Tarsali in Makarpura<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->According to the Gupta-Deol Committee, the house has been taken on rent by Brilliant Tutorials, Tehelka found, and its rent is estimated around Rs 3,000 per month. Zahira confirmed to the Committee that she was not paying the rent.
The family is provided everything at home<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gujarat Riots - 2 - Guest - 08-30-2005
<b>Zaheera Sheikh a 'self-condemned liar': Supreme Court panel</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->New Delhi, August 29: In a serious dent to Best Bakery case key witness Zaheera Sheikh's credibility, a Supreme Court appointed committee has indicted her as a "self-condemned liar" falling to "inducements" by "certain persons" to give "inconsistent" statements during the trial of the case. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gujarat Riots - 2 - Guest - 08-30-2005
I could not understand your question K. Ram. Can you elaborate.
I will put my point. A person's or individual's fault cannot be put on his community. Just like if a person does a fault his family cannot be punished, if a person kills someone then his father or his sister cannot be killed. Can I give any basic concept or human perception to rationalise it??? I dont think that i can rationalise it. My human values says that guilty should be given punishment and no innocent should be punished.
As regards gujrat riots. Well I have a belief. Muslims create hatred. No doubt. I will resist there hatred and not give into that. I will not appease that hatred. I will not cover that hatred. I will not be a hypocrite in the name of peace and tranquilty.
But I will not generate hatred(i know you wont like it). But if nelson mandela can have the resolve to goto jail for 27 years and then get his basic human rights. When Martin luther king could get all civil rights for his fellow blacks and when mahatma gandhi can bring india together then definitely it can be done(i dont know how much you like these characters or do u think that they were apologists).
But i believe that hatred has to be resisted. The islamic theology has to be resisted. It has to be exposed. It has to be shown as barbaric, inhuman and degrading to humanity just as gandhi showed british empire to be degrading and inhuman.
It is a fight for morality and justice and human rights. Islamic theology is degrading to human beings. It creates distinctions, creates hatred and i will resist it, not by force but by exposing it and by not generating hatred further. By making people realise what is really bad and degrading about islam.
Abhishek
Gujarat Riots - 2 - Guest - 08-31-2005
Abhishek,
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->My human values says that guilty should be given punishment and no innocent should be punished.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What does your human values say about those 3000+ muslims who were killed in Nellie, Assam in '83 just a year before '84 riots. The only reason I ask is that today the PM of India is the MP from that very state of Assam and has yet to utter a word on this massacre or make public the findings of the Tewari commission even after 22+ years!!
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But I will not generate hatred(i know you wont like it)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do presume that? That k.ram will like/not like 'hate generation'. Knowing him, I've yet to see a single post on this or any other forum where he's advocated or applauded hate. If you post here with presuming about others (as I see in several of your posts) you will deviate from the topic and we'll end up with an acrimonious thread.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->nelson mandela ....Martin luther king ...mahatma gandhi.... (i dont know how much you like these characters or do u think that they were apologists).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You heard of Winne Mandela? Or MLK's audio tapes (recently released by FBI) of his parties in motels? Or Have you heard of Mahatma Gandhi's son named Hiralal Gandhi? Please, take some time to research this and then maybe you'll help me understand as to why you think these great souls could tie their nations/community together but couldn't keep their own house intact?
I don't view them as apologists or heros in simple black/white boxes as you'd like to; it's just that every man (or woman) has their strength and weakness and I don't expect any one human to have all the qualities that we see in God - that too on a good day.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It is a fight for morality and justice and human rights. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No arugments there Abhishek. Let all those who are responsible be tried and hung from the nearest pole - be it for participating in riots or formenting the riots or for gross deriliction of their basic duty. But you seem to be advocating the fight for morality and justice and human rights selectively with leaders and events you are familiar with - this seems to be crux of the debate here.
Gujarat Riots - 2 - agnivayu - 08-31-2005
Different situations require different tactics. Non-Violence and publicity stunts may have worked in South Africa and British rule, but these won't neccessarily work against Islam.
Acting this way in front of Islamic extremists actually incites them to violence because they see it as a sign of weakness. Neither the Islamic or Christian leaders who bad mouth Hindus and babble about secularism truly believe in being secular. They are just biding their time, waiting to strike when the time is right. If they had their way, India would be a Christian or Islamic theocracy.
Hindus and Hinduism is what keeps India naturally secular.
<!--QuoteBegin-abhishek_d+Aug 30 2005, 12:10 PM-->QUOTE(abhishek_d @ Aug 30 2005, 12:10 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I could not understand your question K. Ram. Can you elaborate.
I will put my point. A person's or individual's fault cannot be put on his community. Just like if a person does a fault his family cannot be punished, if a person kills someone then his father or his sister cannot be killed. Can I give any basic concept or human perception to rationalise it??? I dont think that i can rationalise it. My human values says that guilty should be given punishment and no innocent should be punished.
As regards gujrat riots. Well I have a belief. Muslims create hatred. No doubt. I will resist there hatred and not give into that. I will not appease that hatred. I will not cover that hatred. I will not be a hypocrite in the name of peace and tranquilty.
But I will not generate hatred(i know you wont like it). But if nelson mandela can have the resolve to goto jail for 27 years and then get his basic human rights. When Martin luther king could get all civil rights for his fellow blacks and when mahatma gandhi can bring india together then definitely it can be done(i dont know how much you like these characters or do u think that they were apologists).
But i believe that hatred has to be resisted. The islamic theology has to be resisted. It has to be exposed. It has to be shown as barbaric, inhuman and degrading to humanity just as gandhi showed british empire to be degrading and inhuman.
It is a fight for morality and justice and human rights. Islamic theology is degrading to human beings. It creates distinctions, creates hatred and i will resist it, not by force but by exposing it and by not generating hatred further. By making people realise what is really bad and degrading about islam.
Abhishek
[right][snapback]38155[/snapback][/right]
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Gujarat Riots - 2 - Guest - 09-01-2005
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->A person's or individual's fault cannot be put on his community. Just like if a person does a fault his family cannot be punished, if a person kills someone then his father or his sister cannot be killed. Can I give any basic concept or human perception to rationalise it??? I dont think that i can rationalise it. My human values says that guilty should be given punishment and no innocent should be punished.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You cant because you havent seen live coverage of burnt bodies of women and children arriving in your city. You cant because you dont see the difference between 2000 pigs burning 58 women and children alive and a couple of suars attacking a temple. Gujaratis saw the live coverage and they saw the difference. They responded in one case and didnt respond in the other. Go figure !!!
Gujarat Riots - 2 - Guest - 09-01-2005
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But I will not generate hatred(i know you wont like it)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am sorry that it went the way it went through. I sincerely did not mean that K.Ram wants to generate hatred.
What i wanted to say is that sometimes when people like me talk about reconciliation or friendship then it is seen as weakness or apologists attitude, so in that spirit I said that maybe you dont accept my position of trying to find common ground and most importantly not all muslims are islamists or who have hatred in there mind and similarly in the same spirit i want to say that a community that too by mob cannot kill people who are presumed to be guilty.
I sincerely understand the problem that there are people who themselves dont believe in non-violence or secularism or liberalism and sincerely speaking are ones who create hatred and so i say i will resist it and not accept it. I will not drum up about non-violence. And put the method in a different perspective.
According to me our enemy is hatred that islamists are generating. So hatred has to be resisted. We will not give in to hatred. Like gandhi said to british rule that i will not accept your rules and laws. I will break them and keep breaking those laws till you dont go away. Similarly I will keep working against islamic theological hatred whatever be it and keep breaking all the laws like Muslims Personal law or shariah law or triple talaq or woman's issue inside islam. Against the concept of dar-ul-islam, concept of kafir and concept of violence. I will keep working against the most brutal method of theology which works on the concept of fear, retaliation and retribution.
My method will be peaceful , no rioting or killing. We cannot kill innocent people. Killing of innocent people justifies no cause. The cause and the means both have to be correct and justified, but i will work against islamists and there hatred world.
As regards the godhra massacre. It is a henious crime and i will not say that it is just reactionary. but an eye to an eye will make the world blind. It will just create more godhra and gujrat nothing more. Finally somebody will win but in the process you will change yourself.
And yes my response to riots is restricted to the knowledge that i have about them. I do know about the 1969 ahmedabad riots and the muslim gheetos in ahmedabad. And my rage towards kashmiri pandits is and always will be there, until and unless they get back to the valley it will not be gone.
Abhishek
Gujarat Riots - 2 - shamu - 09-01-2005
What you say will work when you and other party work under some frame work of law. Better watch out when you deal with people who say what they want then is the law.
Want to deal with islamists peacefully? May be tribe like yours should learn from what happened to relatively peaceful Parsees, if you don't want to look at what happened to us in last 1000 years.
Gujarat Riots - 2 - agnivayu - 09-02-2005
It's pretty clear that Islam brings out the worst in every person. I think it's very important that muslims leave India as it was supposed to be in 1947 for their own good. That way Hindus won't have to get nasty or use violence.
<!--QuoteBegin-ashyam+Sep 1 2005, 01:23 PM-->QUOTE(ashyam @ Sep 1 2005, 01:23 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->What you say will work when you and other party work under some frame work of law. Better watch out when you deal with people who say what they want then is the law.
Want to deal with islamists peacefully? May be tribe like yours should learn from what happened to relatively peaceful Parsees, if you don't want to look at what happened to us in last 1000 years.
[right][snapback]38207[/snapback][/right]
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Gujarat Riots - 2 - Guest - 09-02-2005
Well I will accept that using non-violent methods against islamists in islamic stronghold may not work. but it will definitely work in indian democratic system. It can be shown as a very brutal system of living and method of thinking.
if violence is used it creates a wrong public opinion and islamists have a field day on that thing. if we resist the islamist tendencies properly and corretly. It wont be a very difficult thing to show what shariah has to show and what the position of woman is in islam or that they believe in us against them or that they have a very racist way of living.
Just keep exposing and resisting. Just keep on say. I dont accept, i dont comply. I believe you are spreading hatred, enmity and most importantly poverty and economic deprivation.
It can be done. Just it has to be believed.
Abhishek
Gujarat Riots - 2 - shamu - 09-02-2005
Could you please show me a place where it (against islamist ideaology) worked? I assume you were not aware of what happened to Van Goh in Holland.
Did anybody say Nazis could be defeated through peaceful means?
Gujarat Riots - 2 - Guest - 09-02-2005
ashyam,
Abhishek has been clear about the extent of his knowledge or the intent he has on broadening it or discussing it. I hope your question doesn't lead to another set of same old sermons (to the choir I might add).
Gujarat Riots - 2 - shamu - 09-03-2005
Agreed. Abhishek, please don't bother to reply to my post.
Gujarat Riots - 2 - Guest - 09-03-2005
ok as you wish. I just put my points and views.
Abhishek