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Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Printable Version
Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Printable Version

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Historicity of Jesus - 2 - ramana - 03-02-2011

Quote at end of the book:

Quote:The early Christian Church was also apocalyptically oriented and, under Paul's leadership,organized hierarchically, with everyone told to be subservient to the state

(Rom.l3:l-5; 1 Pet.2:13-15 ), women told to be subordinate to men4 and slaves told to

be obedient to their masters (Eph. 6:5; all of Philemon; Tit 2:9,10).

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Guest - 03-07-2011

Was "Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine discussed under the development of Christian Church?

ps: I tried searching the forums, the search feature of this forum being not that great (or it is user error on my part), I could not see anything in the results.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - ramana - 03-09-2011

The Invention of the Jewish People

Verso (October 19, 2009) | ISBN: 1844674223 | 332 pages |

Quote:Bestselling new analysis of Jewish history by a leading Israeli historian. A historical tour de force that demolishes the myths and taboos that have surrounded Jewish and Israeli history, The Invention of the Jewish People offers a new account of both that demands to be read and reckoned with. Was there really a forced exile in the first century, at the hands of the Romans? Should we regard the Jewish people, throughout two millennia, as both a distinct ethnic group and a putative nation—returned at last to its Biblical homeland?

Shlomo Sand argues that most Jews actually descend from converts, whose native lands were scattered far across the Middle East and Eastern Europe. The formation of a Jewish people and then a Jewish nation out of these disparate groups could only take place under the sway of a new historiography, developing in response to the rise of nationalism throughout Europe. Beneath the biblical back fill of the nineteenth-century historians, and the twentieth-century intellectuals who replaced rabbis as the architects of Jewish identity, The Invention of the Jewish People uncovers a new narrative of Israel’s formation, and proposes a bold analysis of nationalism that accounts for the old myths.

After a long stay on Israel’s bestseller list, and winning the coveted Aujourd’hui Award in France, The Invention of the Jewish People is finally available in English. The central importance of the conflict in the Middle East ensures that Sand’s arguments will reverberate well beyond the historians and politicians that he takes to task. Without an adequate understanding of Israel’s past, capable of superseding today’s opposing views, diplomatic solutions are likely to remain elusive. In this iconoclastic work of history, Shlomo Sand provides the intellectual foundations for a new vision of Israel’s future.

So in same manner the derivative religio-political movements were created by Romans and Arabs.....

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - ramana - 03-16-2011

Derek Murphy, "Jesus Potter Harry Christ: The Fascinating Parallels Between Two of the World's Most Popular Literary Characters"

Publisher: H o ly Bl asph emy | 2011 | ISBN: 0615430937 | 490 pages |

Quote:"Particularly absorbing and highly topical: namely, the idea that nothing substantially separates Jesus of Nazareth from Harry Potter except that most human beings believe in the historical reality of the former. Instead, both figures entertain astonishingly parallel personality traits that derive from universal myths. As part of the continuing debate over the nature of Christ, not only among Christians but between them and today's wave of atheist thinkers, Jesus Potter, Harry Christ is timely. Linking this analysis, moreover, to J. K. Rowling's globally popular character further heightens its relevancy." Jeff Crouse, Ph.D - Parmenides

"Absolutely loved it! With so much misinformation being disseminated about Jesus Christ, this book was refreshing. Derek pulls from notable and reliable sources to frame his arguments in a way that is both intriguing and satisfying. His insights into the phenomena that captivate the fans of literary characters like Harry Potter and Jesus Christ are extraordinary. To anyone who enjoys a mystery being unraveled, Harry Potter Jesus Christ is a must read." Andrea Giffith, The Social I.Q. Lady

"If you're a fan of Harry or a fan of Jesus, Derek Murphy's book will open your eyes to the startling similarities between these two characters and why those similarities exist. Murphy takes us on an in depth journey through the land of epic hero tales, their ancient origins and how (and why) they developed. By the end of the journey, Murphy pulls it all together and dares to ask who is perhaps the greater role model; Harry or Jesus? I found this book eye opening and impossible to put down." Henry Scalfo

"I'm impressed. A lot. I figured that Jesus Potter Harry Christ would focus on the commonalities between Jesus Christ and Harry Potter, but Murphy's aims are a lot more ambitious. And interesting. In a highly readable yet semi-scholarly style, he sets out to examine the origins and evolution of Christianity, seeking evidence for a historical Jesus who is akin to the mythical figure revered by believers today. Jesus Potter Harry Christ demolishes part of the foundation of Christianity, Jesus' purported uniqueness and godly heritage, but leaves the most important part: our capacity as humans to become more and better than we are now." Brian Hines, author of "Return to the One"

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Guest - 03-26-2011

Quote:Most people wouldn't put it that way, since the Bible is, after all, sacred Scripture for millions on our planet. But good Christian scholars of the Bible, including the top Protestant and Catholic scholars of America, will tell you that the Bible is full of lies, even if they refuse to use the term. And here is the truth: Many of the books of the New Testament were written by people who lied about their identity, claiming to be a famous apostle -- Peter, Paul or James -- knowing full well they were someone else. In modern parlance, that is a lie, and a book written by someone who lies about his identity is a forgery.

Most modern scholars of the Bible shy away from these terms, and for understandable reasons, some having to do with their clientele. Teaching in Christian seminaries, or to largely Christian undergraduate populations, who wants to denigrate the cherished texts of Scripture by calling them forgeries built on lies? And so scholars use a different term for this phenomenon and call such books "pseudepigrapha."

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - ramana - 04-19-2011

Assyrians and Jews:3000 years of common history

Discover Magazine.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - acharya - 05-09-2011

[size="7"]The great Jesus swindle


The greatest lie ever told.

You can download an audio version of this video at

Subscribe via iTunes at





Self destructive idea in human history

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 05-11-2011


Pantheism and Biblical Christianity

By: Bill Muehlenberg

Quote:In the famous painting on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel by Michelangelo there is the memorable scene of the creator God extending his finger to the outstretched hand of the newly formed Adam. The imagery makes clear that Adam is a creation of God, not an extension of him. Creator and creation are distinct.

That is the clear understanding of the Judeo-Christian worldview. In contrast to Eastern religions, where God is seen as everything (pantheism), or in everything (panentheism), the biblical teaching is that there is an eternal, personal and infinite God who is not to be confused with his creation.

For millennia the West was based on the monotheistic religions which viewed creation as the finite result of an infinite God, while the East has been shaped by monism (the belief that all is one) and pantheism. But recently these two opposing worldviews have experienced a massive crossover.

There are various reasons why East and West have lost their distinctive differences, and become so entwined. I here wish to focus on just one area. Western popular culture and the entertainment industry have done much to promote the pantheistic worldview and New Age spirituality.

Whether it be popular films such as the Star Wars series, or bestselling New Age tomes such as The Secret by Rhonda Byrne or A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle, on all sides the West is being inundated with Eastern thinking and New Age concepts.

The most recent – and most spectacular – example of this is the runaway hit film, Avatar. It is a classic example of the pantheistic worldview, dressed up to suit modern Western tastes. It is thus quite a part of the New Age revolution which has conquered so much of the West over the past few decades.

Part of the reason why the New Age appeals so much to Westerners is that it offers the Eastern religious system but without much of its more demanding religious and ethical emphases. People are free to choose in the New Age spirituality what they like, and little or no demands are made on them.

Many of the people today who tinker with the East are really just imbibing in the New Age smorgasbord. They pick and choose those aspects which they like, and leave those which they don’t. It is all very Western really, fitting our consumerist lifestyle. Thus Eastern thoughts and concepts have very much become a part of Western life.

And films like Avatar are in many ways just a reflection of this. Instead of a creator God who stands outside of us, and places expectations and demands upon us, in the new Easternised spiritualities of the West, people are free to call the shots and determine what is right and wrong, true and false.

Indeed, they get to be God. That is the real attraction of the New Age worldview. Instead of a transcendent God with whom we must do business, and bow to, we in fact are all a part of the divine already. We just need to realise that we are already God, that we are already divine.

And sadly, many Christians have bought into this explicitly non-Christian worldview as well. Many Christians seem to think they can simultaneously hold to Christianity while dabbling in New Age beliefs and practices. I have spoken to many such persons.

Indeed, how many Christians would have gone to a film like Avatar and left it all agog, without even being aware of how in so many ways it is promoting a decidedly non-biblical point of view. Of course many people have warned about how this new paganism is creeping into the churches.

Peter Jones of Westminster Seminary, for example, has written numerous volumes on these dangers. Readers should consult The Gnostic Empire Strikes Back An Old Heresy for the New Age (P&R, 1992); Spirit Wars: Pagan Revival in Christian America (WinePress, 1997); Pagans in the Pews (Regal, 2001); and Capturing the Pagan Mind (Broadman & Holman, 2003).

Earlier C.S. Lewis had warned about the dangers of pantheistic thinking. In the 1950s he had penned these words: “I freely admit that, believing both, I have stressed the transcendence of God more than His immanence. I thought, and I think, that the present situation demands this. I see around me no danger of Deism but much of an immoral, naive and sentimental pantheism. I have often found that it was in fact the chief obstacle to conversion.”

Indeed, it is biblical Christianity which provides the right mix between divine transcendence and divine immanence. God is wholly other and separate from us (his transcendence) and yet he chose to become one with us in the incarnation, and he dwells with those who seek to follow him (his immanence).

There is no possibility in the biblical worldview of confusing who we are and who God is. Indeed, just today I read a great line in the third and final volume of John Goldingay’s magisterial Old Testament Theology. He says this: “The difference between God and us is that God never thinks he is us”.

Exactly so. But the tendency amongst so many Westerners influenced by pantheism, Eastern thought and the New Age movement is to think we are God. That type of thinking runs counter to the entire biblical belief system. We are doubly alienated from God: first, by creation, and secondly, by sin. The first renders us finite; the second renders us fallen.

Both these obstacles must be overcome, and we cannot do the overcoming ourselves. It is God who has taken the initiative here, becoming incarnate so that we might become (in the right sense of the word) partakers of the divine nature. And of course to get right with God, we must come to him on his terms, not our own.

But for those who want to call the shots, who want to pretend they are already divine,. The Christian answer will never do. Lewis again had all this rightly explained a half century ago. Writing in his classic 1947 volume, Miracles, he wrote that pantheism “is in fact the permanent natural bent of the human mind”.

Why so? It is so congenial to unregenerate man because it simply means “what man says about God, and not what God does about man”. In biblical Christianity God is sovereign and we are not. No wonder people prefer pantheism. As Peter Kreeft rightly noted,

“Men are reluctant to pass over from the notion of an abstract and negative deity to the living God. I do not wonder. Here lies the deepest tap-root of Pantheism and of the objection to traditional imagery. It was hated not, at bottom, because it pictured Him as a man but because it pictured Him as king, or even as warrior. The Pantheist’s God does nothing, demands nothing. He is there if you wish for Him, like a book on a shelf. He will not pursue you. There is no danger that at any time heaven and earth should flee away at His glance. If He were the truth, then we could really say that all the Christian images-of kingship were a historical accident of which our religion ought to be cleansed.”

Ever since our first parents fell, people have been looking for a way to get back to God, but on their own terms. The way of the cross is simply too hard and too demanding for many. But a worldview which tells us we are already God, well, that is something most people can readily sign up for.

But it is a false path to salvation. There is only one path whereby we can get right with God, and that path goes through a hill with a cross on it, and it goes though a person, Jesus Christ. The masses may marvel at the God-is-everything philosophy of a film like Avatar, but only those who have come to an end of themselves will realise that reunion with god is something that God decides and God lays out the specs for.

We either bow the knee to him and his designated means of becoming reunited with him, or we devise our own paths. But Jesus made it clear that there is only one path. “But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it” (Matt 7:14).

Philosophies like the New Age, and films like Avatar readily appeal to us. They allow us the right to set the boundaries and determine the rules. They assume mankind is already alive and part of the divine. Biblical Christianity, by contrast, assumes that we are all spiritually dead and alienated from God. That is why Christ came – not to tell us we are already part of the divine, but to show us how to flee the wrath to come, and how to become who we were truly meant to be.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 05-26-2011


Words written by William Blake



Quote:And did those feet in ancient time

Walk upon England's mountains green

And was the holy lamb of God

On England's pleasant pastures seen

And did the countenance divine

Shine forth upon our clouded hills

And was Jerusalem builded here

Among those dark Satanic mills

Bring me my bow of burning gold

Bring me my arrows of desire

Bring me my spears o'clouds unfold

Bring me my chariot of fire

I will not cease from mental fight

Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand

'Til we have built Jerusalem

In England's green and pleasant land

'Til we have built Jerusalem

In England's green and pleasant land

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 07-08-2011


06-02-2007, 08:25 PM

A mind bending college moment for me was discussing the Republic with the rest of the Honors students in my great books program and stumbling across what Plato says about the truly just man. According to Plato:

If there was ever a truly just man, he'd be mocked, beaten, and *crucified* (yes, the Greek word literally means crucified). Do we know anyone who might fit that description <img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Wink' />.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Husky - 07-08-2011


06-02-2007, 08:25 PM

A mind bending college moment for me was discussing the Republic with the rest of the Honors students in my great books program and stumbling across what Plato says about the truly just man. According to Plato:

If there was ever a truly just man, he'd be mocked, beaten, and *crucified* (yes, the Greek word literally means crucified). Do we know anyone who might fit that description <img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Wink' />.

"Ooooh, oooh, I know the answer. Me me!" :raises paw:

The answer is (Kirk Douglas in) Spartacus and all his freed-"slaves", of course: they got mocked, beaten and crucified. That makes them Just Men as per Plato (that was the logic of the argument "Inkling" was trying for, wasn't it?)

And while the historical Spartacus' own end is now apparently debated ("did he perhaps die in battle after all?"), the historically-documented end of some 5000/6000 of the ex-slave freemen following him was in fact crucifixion.

But in any case, the one character we know could never have got crucified is the entity which christians call "jesus christ".

He simply never existed.

Naturally Plato's Republic would have been used by the christian fiction-writers in order to invent the non-existent "jesus christ" in such a way as to make him sound like the "just man" described by Hellenistic Philosophy. I.e. they either used Hellenistic writings in order to make the fictional "jesus christ" character seem the fulfillment/culmination of a Platonic ideal or this is simply something christians are desperately reading into it.

But then, that's what christianism/islam/false religions do: write themselves/their fictions into others' histories/religious literatures.

Sadly, just like the lying christians* pathetically erred in declaring the fictive jesus 'christ' to be the Jewish Messiah (when jesus specifically *can't* have been the messiah - see Jewish arguments e.g. at Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah because...),

jesus has even less to do with Hellenismos (including its Philosophy). But all that's not even taking jesus' non-existence into consideration: which is only *one* of the fatal blows to the theory. Ancient Hellenes (as well as modern) have argued christianism's entire and utter unrelatedness to all of Hellenismos (which includes all Philosophy) at length.

* That christians would lie is not in question: christianism makes them do it. I parrot myself parroting Julian, who explains so incontrovertibly that Christianism Is An Evil Lie:

Quote:Emperor Julian writes in Contra Galilaeos ("Against the Christians"):

It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that the fabrication of the Galilaeans [color="#800080"](=those who call themselves christians)[/color] is a fiction of men composed by wickedness.

Back to the topic:

Julian didn't get "mocked, beaten and crucified".

But christians (=evil terrorists) plotted his death multiple times. In the end - as christians owned up - a christian plot had Julian skewered. (And so he went off to Olympus apparently, where we're told he is united with his Divine Parents, his Gods. But aren't all pious Heroes?)

So, not crucified. But a Just Man nevertheless.

And many Hellenes of the emperor's time and after - who are the sole people to know what Plato meant (since they, like Plato, were Hellenes, while 'Inkling' is not -> instead, he's of the kind that genocided the Hellenes) -

many Hellenes of the emperor's time and after certainly recognised in Julian a fulfillment of all of Plato's best ideals. Especially as includes an Ideal Emperor*. Who am I to argue.

(* Just to make it clear: Emperor Julian as Platonic Ideal for emperor is a *famous* topic in his biographies. It's not merely a nice way of describing Julian. And Julian regarded Marcus Aurelius as his standard for just imperial governance.)


- Julian +1 (Again. Still. "How does he do it?" <img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' /> )

- "jesus christ" (jeebusjehovallah) forever stuck at 0 if not negative infinity. Blame it on his non-existence.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 07-13-2011

Scribd Timeline of John Hudson

Particularly interesting is

American Empire/Roman Empire


Historicity of Jesus - 2 - ramana - 07-16-2011


Pretty good summary.

So even Shakepeare's works are repelete with the parody.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 07-16-2011

[quote name='ramana' date='16 July 2011 - 02:30 AM' timestamp='1310763148' post='112196']


Pretty good summary.

So even Shakepeare's works are repelete with the parody.


The revelation for us is that western normatizing is always at a grosser level.

The 'code' is written in at the formative moment of "creation"; heathenish learning is not possible in such a situation, only revelation, the unveiling of the "true meaning".

Even their 'narratives' are not for learning, but for "figuring out" the (true) meaning.

That is they even have normative narratives.

No communication, much less exchange, is possible in such a situation; only invective. When the invective is not clear, symbology is assumed; the vast majorty of their "commons" flounder their entire lives in this symbology.

The elite are the "privy"

Alienation when it happens in the normatized is the path to the privyhood.

That is, the path to the elite, to surety, to universality itself, is alienation.

This alienation can either lead towards the secular (which is the grosser) or towards the religious (which is the higher)

Normativity is strengthened when the code is revealed, for it is a vindication of the reality and therefore of the universality of the code.

Even when the code is revealed to be the grosser level, the code dynamic is taken as a universal truth.

From such a dynamic, no appreciation of an alhernate heathen reality is possible.

Universality of codes is strengthened by revelation of the code

Now watch as they transform Kalidas as the Shake-Spear of the East.

Perhaps Kalidas was abusing Krishna, or perhaps even Buddha.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 07-27-2011

Following is an account for the origin of the idol worship canard in Monotheism. It has to be emperor worship elevated to the status of canard and invective *at the level of academia (represented by Josephus)* and as a substitute for the acceptance of imperial sway. The idol worship canard in no way was existent a priori to the colonial project in heathen canaan, nor is Roman Emperor worship itself different from other forms of heathen devotion.

(It must be remembered that it is just one faction of the roman polity, *the roman catholic faction*, which destroyed the Druids and Canaanites. This phenomenon in no way reflects upon the heathenness of the whole Roman society, even though the antecedents are traceable specifically to the Glaucon-Socrates exchange).

Ramana, Husky, does the following make sense..

Quote:brihaspati wrote:

There are parallel studies which find the early Christian movement to be a political one, which either started off as a revolutionary movement or was taken up as such a revolutionary movement by disgruntled sections of the Roman society.

This is precisely the problem. Conflict was always there in the heathen society, there is nothing significant in this by itself. Factions will always form and there will be supporters in each faction, and there will be some voicing a grievance. The rebellion of grievance is in no way transformed into a “revolutionary movement” in heathen society. In fact, the “revolutionary movement” only manifests at the level of conceptualization in socio-political theory. This happened for the first time in Monotheism. For example, we know that (Titus of) Josephus is a mirror image of the (Jesus of) NT and that the NT is a parody of Josephus and not the other way around (but with tell-tale reverse situations occurring in isolation). If Josephus is so perfectly crafted, then what of its “neutral observations” regarding the natives refusing to “bow before the emperor/idol’’ in ‘theological principle’ rather than just rebellion? When Shivaji rebelled against the Emperor, did he do so because he was opposed to idol/emperor worship? Of course not (although the converted omniscients will have an extremely hard time visualizing such). The “observations” regarding "refusal to emperor/idol worship" in Josephus are simply the ground against which the anti-semitic (meaning anti-ME) invective of the NT can manifest. Josephus is the "social observation" and is posited as the 'normality'. And in framing the case of the native rebellion as a case of theological disagreement, an intermediary (of theological principle) was able to be posited as the “fulcrum” of the conflict, allowing for further ambiguation (eg, the rebels had founded a world theory of "anti-slavery", "freedom", "liberty", etc). At the level of Josephus, this ambiguation is "social theory"; at the level of NT, it is religious invective. Such ambiguation is present in the texts themselves and works as long as the social theory (Josephus) part remains isolated from the religion (NT) which commands action. When a relationship between the two becomes obvious, the macaulayite nature of the “revolutionary movement” also is seen.

The need to normatize against a standard may itself prevent the "revolution" from taking off on its own, ie both the elites and the followers cannot conceptualize beyond the macaulayite lifestyle. In fact, the ambiguation which is "useful to the elites” and the "delight of the rabble-rouser" needs a sustained academia/seminary for maintenance. When discrepancies are encountered eg the discovery of heathen native america or heathen india, the discourse automatically shifts to incorporate those at the level of discourse itself (Enlightenment with its binary of sterilized social science and orientalist romanticism). The elites are quite secondary here.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - ramana - 07-29-2011

Jesus Lied - He Was Only Human: Debunking The New Testament by: CJ Werleman

Dangerous Little Books; 1 edition (October 5, 2010) | ISBN: 0956427618 | 538 pages |

Quote:Jesus Lied. He Was Only Human' is arguably the most comprehensive and exhaustive debunking of the Christian myth on bookshelves today. Like a forensic accountant, Werleman meticulously pulls apart the New Testament thread-by-thread until the greatest lie ever told if exposed for all to see. Werleman not only reveals the suffering - Jesus caused his early followers, he cleverly demonstrates that the New Testament is brimming with contradictory views, conflicting accounts, historical flaws, and irreconcilable discrepancies. Comprehensive. Funny. Entertaining. A must read for anyone who wants to silence their evangelical friends.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 07-29-2011

The idol-breaker canard was the problematizing motif to transform the macaulayite into a "revolutionary".

This cannot happen at the level of experience or devotion or rebellion but only at the level of academia.

The identity of heathen culture was overtaken by this "revolutionary" class.

I will post the entire timeline and dynamic within 2 days , both for the OT and NT.

Herodotus normatized at the level of Moshe.

Aegyptica, Babylonika, and Persica were placed into the Septuagint and sought to normatize the rest of the ME.

Later this was normatized at the level of jeebus by Josephus.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 08-01-2011

Quote:We cannot prove that Moses ever existed but as we cannot explain the development

of Israelite monotheism without a Moses, he must have existed. Otherwise we

would have to invent him … disregarding the possibility that ancient writers

did exactly that!


by N.P. Lemche

The author above is typically concerned with mere historicity.

However, there is a parallel in the above in the Ghent group's writing on AIT:

The Aryans were needed to explain the "observation" of Religion in India.

Of course, it was precisely the observers who brought Religion to India and Religion does not exist in India outside of their peculiar problematizing lens.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 08-01-2011


Historicity of Jesus - 2 - ramana - 08-01-2011

Europe especially Mediterreanan Europe has bore the brunt of repeated invasions of force and cultural ideas from the East: Egypt, Hittites, Persians etc.

Europe has been on a quest to delink itself from the East since antiquity. You can see this in the Virgin birth of Jesus to show a delink from the East. The gospel's by Luke and Mark are the first attempts to fashion a delinked religion from the East in order to unify Europe under the Roman imperial rule. They needed that to fight the Goths and other Germanic tribes.

Even Hitler's Nazism is a modern attmpt to do the same with his slogan "Without Rome, Without Jude,...."

We see the NATO intervention in Libya as an attempt to reassert old Pax Romana on North Africa as a new recoqusita of those areas from Islam.

But for Islam North Afirca would be part of current Europe.