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Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 08-02-2011

This is a brief outline for the interim, still working on the full text.

1. The rebellion is deemed as emanating from an inimical and principled ideology, i.e., ideo-opposition to emperor worship, rather than just a rebellion. This is done at the level of the Academia of the Empire, and never by the native. Emperor worship is conflated with a false idol and this affords the opportunity to damn the resistance as intractable and principled ie unreasonable in its opposition. The Empire (the sepoy) also damns itself (the Empire) as reactionary (rather than principled) affording for further ambiguization.

2. The ideology level abstraction is amenable to being overtaken by the Empire in cloak i.e., by the "sepoy Revolutionary" or the idol-breaker; this is a social theory level abstraction ie ideology.

3. Following the nature of the beast that is ideology, the gaze of the idol-breaker is directed primarily to the native culture with a gratuitous and misleading contemporary edge which serves to cloak (eg the sepoy marxist damining the native with occasional damnations of the Empire). The mantle of revolutionary is thus donned by the Empire.

4. The sepoy Hasmonean, the Jew, followed Antiochus IV Epiphanes in same fashion as the sepoy Christians followed Titus. The orientalist sepoy assumed the mantle of the native resistance in both cases. OT is primarily concerned with damning the native culture in a revisionist history project (ie the Bristish educational project in India). The NT updates the scenario by damning the Jewish OT agents themselves, just as the elite (communist) sepoys of the American Empire damn the previous British Empire as divisive and "colonial".

5. The first “task” of the colonizer is to “establish” a framework which allows for problematization; the ‘construction’ of such a framework has a few overt requirements and many salient consequences. Oftentimes, the (secondary) consequences will be mistaken as the ‘required’ features for operation of the system– this is a necessary result of the bipartite “design” (with a ‘pseudo-dynamic’ between ‘overt meme’ versus ‘hidden meme’) of the system and “serves” as an additional level of ambiguization (i.e., another level of false flag).

Consequences which are commonly deemed as defining features include:

1. the interpretative singularity (the normatized interpretative background) of the (Will of) the “One True God”;

2. “intentionality”;

The empirical evidence which we have is that these two “features” emerge simply as a consequence of the pseudo-dynamic arrangement between the ‘seen meme’ and the ‘unseen meme’ (a diptych of 'the ideology' and 'the [necessary] mirror image image of the ideology'; the mirror image is the normed version and can alternate b/w the religious version and the secular version depending upon the user preference).[color="#0000FF"][sup][a][/sup][/color]

The required feature which transforms any disparate set of entities into a specifically monotheist ‘system’ is simply the bipartite arrangement of a ‘seen meme’ against an ‘unseen meme’ (memes are standalone normed units [either socio-theory or theology] which change or rather “advance/progress/regress” by materialist “mutation” in “understanding”).[color="#0000FF"][sup][b][/sup][/color]

The pseudodynamic inherent in the seen and unseen meme is a replacement notion for the (orthopraxic, experiential; true) ‘dynamic’ seen with the heathens and overtakes in grotesque EWS simulacrum the characteristics of the heathen experiential reality. The ideology is always non-relational at the interaction level but is always dependent upon the construction of an (orientalist) mirror-image for the (aggrandizing) self-image; the “dual” images are non-relational and thus in fight for elimination of the mirrored rival; this manifests invariably as totalitarianism; before a denoument becomes possible either in religious revelation or in materialist insignificance.[color="#0000FF"][sup][c][/sup][/color] Ideologies can are never bbe relational and thus they are totalitarian in scope (two eventualities are feared: 1. other rival total systems 2. the unseen mirror image; the relationship between ideologies is pseudodynamic; that is, they cannot inform each other).

Another consequence of the framework is the elimination cultural diversity; this is a consequence of the disconnect between the seen and unseen portions of the diptych wherein one side will try to eliminate the other side, in hopes of becoming the Truth and forestalling a possible denouement.

[color="#0000FF"][sup][a][/sup][/color] that is, the "aggrandizing" self-image (which is independent, declared, obvious, non-relational, non-negotiable, revelatory, and self-professed) always has an orientalist mirror image [which is irrational , etc]). One meme will be seen at any one time and never togethere; the two images/works are written in pseudo-relation to each other, i.e., they are not in conversation with each other. In other words, they are juxtaposed and in competition and not in dynamic relation (as seen in Dharma).

[color="#0000FF"][sup][b][/sup][/color] in contrast to a ‘dynamic’ which is relational and dependent upon others’ concerns and is constituted solely “as a self” [in-so-far as it makes sense to speak of a ‘self’] in relation between 2 entities). Dharma is a dynamic and not a meme.

[color="#0000FF"][sup][c][/sup][/color] revelation for the materialist is a denoument.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - ramana - 08-02-2011

Brilliant. Please continue.

Thanks, ramana

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - ramana - 08-11-2011

Dhu, Any updates?

Also there was a pdf in some thread with Hitler's notation about Bible being the only true history. Can some one link it again. The reason is need to show Nazism is new Christianity for Europe without its ME origins and show its continuity to Brevik's folly.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 08-12-2011

I have a draft and will post in a few hours, still in outline form, but at least it is a start.

A stage of true idol (worship) precedes that of false idol (worship).

This stage is extremely transitory and is almost never seen

The interpretative frameworks are problematized into existence first, and find their resolution in a reconciliation rubric which is the One True God.

I will need reviewers to go over this in detail.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - ramana - 08-18-2011


Passion of Greeks

The Passion of the Greeks: Christianity and the Rape of the Hellenes [Hardcover]

Evaggelos G. Vallianatos

Quote:This book tells the secret story of the conflict between Greeks and Christians in late antiquity, especially from the fourth to the sixth centuries. It reveals how Christianity, assisted and funded by the Roman Empire, conspired to kill the Greeks whom it had dehumanized, branding them idolaters and pagans. Christianity s genocidal policies against the Greeks and their civilization almost succeeded; the "converted" Greeks were forced to abandon even their name and call themselves Romans from the fifth to the nineteenth centuries. Moreover, the Christianization of Greece was a catastrophe that precipitated the fall of Rome and engendered the dark ages of Western civilization. The Christians made Greece a cemetery, which quite unintentionally preserved the aftermath of their murder and genocide. At a time of religious conflict between Christianity and Islam, this book highlights the intolerant nature of monotheism. It tells a story never told before, opening the possibility we may get closer to the Greeks, understanding their passion and their achievements. The Greeks resisted Christianity for centuries. Like god Prometheus who gave them fire and the arts, so did the Greeks create our world through the Renaissance, which brought to light the remnants of Greek culture long ago buried by Christianity. Illustrated with two maps of Ancient Greece in color. Designed, printed, and bound in the USA.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Husky - 08-21-2011

<img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />

"The truth will out, 'tis said"


Quote:Faking the evidence

[color="#0000FF"]Ultraviolet light reveals that a manuscript of Tacitus has been overwritten, an original "e" of chrestianos (the good) replaced by an "i" to read christianos (the Christians),[/color]

The above links to:

Quote:Update: The probing eye of science

[color="#0000FF"]11th century monk[/color] corrects Tacitus: "Goodies" to read "Christians"!

Ultraviolet photo of a critical word from the earliest known extant manuscript of Tacitus (second Medicean, Laurentian library, Italy).

The photograph reveals that the word purportedly used by Tacitus in Annals 15.44, [color="#0000FF"]chrestianos ("the good"), has been overwritten as christianos ("the Christians") by a later hand[/color], a deceit which explains the excessive space between the letters and the exaggerated "dot" (dash) above the new "i". [color="#0000FF"]The entire "torched Christians" passage of Tacitus is not only fake, it has been repeatedly "worked over" by fraudsters to improve its value as evidence for the Jesus myth.[/color]

Links to:

The Chrestianos Issue in Tacitus Reinvestigated by Erík Zara © 2009

(Why this matters: Tacitus is held up by christians as one of the "proofs" of historicity of jeebus. IIRC, NT biblical scholarship had been contending for some time that this was a later interpolation. Now comes the hard scientific proof that the convenient insert was indeed a forgery concocted late.

"Why would christians do that?" Because christians had no proof for jeebus and no proof for so-called "early christians" and needed to manufacture this. Which they did: they inserted "proof" into more than one ancient source.)

(2) Some biblical quotes featured on the main page.

Biblical self-reference to christianism being a mindvirus:

Quote:"For the weapons of our warfare are casting down imaginations ... and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ."

– St Paul, 2 Corinthians 10.4,5.

The all-important definition of christian love from the bible

Quote:Loving enemies?

"If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed!"

– 1 Corinthians 16.22.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Husky - 08-23-2011

<img src='<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />

As per the modern christian credo, their "jesus" is supposed to have died when he was either 33 or 38 years of age (the christians can't agree), or even somewhere in between.

But bear in mind that that's what modern christians - removed by over a millennium from their fable - claim.

Now here is what *famous* early christians (closer to jeebus' purported time) claimed about when jeebus was born and when he died:

What DID the Early Christians Believe?

Quote:[color="#0000FF"]"Jesus still alive in the reign of Trajan" – said 2nd century bishop Irenaeus. [Trajan[/color] [color="#800080"]reigned[/color] [color="#0000FF"]98-117 AD]

"Jesus born before Herod the Great" – said 4th century bishop Epiphanius. [Herod 73-4 BC][/color]
Obviously, heathens reading the above can instantly work out that something's not adding up... But Christians had banned mathematics since it was "evil paganism" (i.e. Hellenistic). Being utter strangers to maths, they thus somehow (=miraculously, act of faith) arrived at "jeebus was therefore 33 to 38 years old when he died".

Actually, there's a more logical reason than "miracles" behind how modern christianism came to that figure: bishop Irenaeus knew well christian 'tradition' - but only as it existed up to that point (and as was being peddled in his area). In the 2nd century, his was the opinion/imagination of the somewhat more 'established' christian beliefs of his time. (Or rather: as a bishop, he was contributing to/inventing opinion on jeebus in his time.)

It was *after* Irenaeus that a lot of the other jeebus-historizing fable, as this is known today, came to be. So it is that one hears the later bishop Epiphanius, in the 4th century, parroting his own contemporary version of jeebus' fable: that jeebus' birth predated Herod.

It was thereafter that the sheep were told to believe jeebus' birth to be somewhere near the end of BCE (rounded to 0).

So whenever entities bring up "Jeebus' death", don't forget to quote the "very expert 2nd century bishop Irenaeus" as to when that was. Don't forget to stress how he was obviously more expert than later christian bishops, *because* he lived closer to jeebus' own time than others.

Stress further, how his pronouncement is indeed vital. Because it sounds pretty much like the same 2nd century bishop Irenaeus who was, after all, the first christian to (allegedly) document - in ~180 CE - the names of all 4 alleged authors of the canonical gospels (the collective names were unknown to all christian 'authorities' writing before him, and indeed some prominent early fathers of the church didn't know the name of a single gospel author):

Quote:The names Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were not added to the Gospels

until late in the second century.

+ Thus, although Papias ca. 140 CE knows all the gospels but has only heard of Matthew and Mark, Justin Martyr (ca. 150 CE) knows of none of the four supposed authors.

+ It is only in 180 CE, with Irenæus of Lyons, that we learn who wrote the four "canonical" gospels, and why:

"There are four principle winds, four pillars that hold up the sky, and four corners of the universe; therefore, it is only right that there be four gospels."

-- Church father Irenaeus

[Link] [color="#800080"](Did Jesus Even Exist? - by Frank Zindler of American Atheists and of babble scholarship)[/color]

There's one more reason why Hindus want to remember the 2nd century bishop Irenaeus, famous witness in his time for christianism (via his purported writings):

Quote:Writing towards the end of the second century of our era, Irenaeus says that there existed then only four genuine graves of the Apostles, namely, those of Peter and Paul at Rome, that of John at Ephesus, and that of [color="#FF0000"]Thomas at Edessa in Mesopotamia[/color].

-- The Twelve Apostles, published by Thomas Scott
Da hast du.

[color="#0000FF"]Let's see, Irenaeus says that Jeebus was alive in Roman Emperor Trajan's reign (note that Trajan ruled between 98 and 117 CE, he wasn't born in 98 CE). So even if Irenaeus believed jeebus to have kicked the bucket just at the very moment after Trajan was made Emperor, jeebus would have lasted to 98 CE.

At the same time, remember also that that Apostle (and jeebus twin) Thomas can't have been peddling jeebusism in India in 57 CE or anywhere thereabouts even as per christian reckoning, despite modern claims by "Syrian" christian liars on this - and here I quote Irenaeus - since jeebus wasn't even dead yet in 57 CE, so there *was* no christianism ("jeebus died for your sins, accept him") to peddle yet. Also, Thomas needed to be there at "jeebus' resurrection" (of course the resurrection was a later invention in christianism) in order to "doubt" it - you know, for the Doubting Thomas episode.

But then, Irenaeus' testimony already declared that Thomas didn't die in India but in Edessa. And he certainly couldn't have come to India in the 1st century either (because jeebus wasn't dead yet until 98 CE).[/color]

Why write all the above, when obviously all people on IF would be aware that the "Apostle Thomas in India"/"Syrian christianism came early to India" (and "Hindus killed Thomas") is a big christian lie? Well, because next time anyone here sees some Indian christian liar make a comment anywhere about "Apostle Thomas came to India in 57 CE" or wherever, just quote those 3 'authoritative' (damning) statements by bishop Irenaeus, famous for writing christian 'history' as it was known in the 2nd century CE (he was closer to jeebus' supposed geography than India is to it, and would know more accurately the 'date' of alleged jeebus' death than syrian christians in India would). To recap, the 3 predicates he gives us are:

1. jeebus was alive during Roman Emperor Trajan's reign, who reigned from 98 - 117 CE

2. apostle thomas died in Edessa (and Irenaeus is only aware of 4 apostles' graves anyway)

3. Irenaeus' authority IS important, since until him no christian church father had even heard of the names of the alleged authors of *all* 4 gospels. The later church fathers quoted *him* on who the 4 gospel authors are.

4. Therefore, even as per early and 'authoritative' claims on jeebus and gospel and apostle historicity, exactly how could apostle thomas have died in India when he was to have died in Edessa, let alone have come to India before the non-existent jeebus' death (which at its earliest must have been in 98 CE)?

(5. Etc. Can Q.E.D. here, proving Syrian christian lying.)

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - ramana - 08-24-2011

So if Thomas's grave is at Eddessa in Mesopotamia per Ireneus, then what is there in San Thome Madras?

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Husky - 08-24-2011


[quote name='ramana' date='24 August 2011 - 12:55 AM' timestamp='1314127040' post='112571']

So if Thomas's grave is at Eddessa in Mesopotamia per Ireneus, then what is there in San Thome Madras?

[/quote]I'll get to the 2nd part of your question in a moment.

But the first half of your question contains a fallacy. You're assuming that Thomas existed, died and is buried somewhere. By all valid accounts, neither he nor any of the apostles ever existed.

The whole point of the previously-mentioned reference "The Twelve Apostles" pamphlet "published by Thomas Scott" which quoted Irenaeus was to show how not only jeebus but his 12 apostles didn't exist either.

My point in referring to the statement was simply this: in the 2nd century when the alleged Irenaeus existed, christian history-manufacturing had only yet invented 4 graves for 4 of the alleged apostles: none of which alleged 4 graves were even set in India yet; and notably, that of Thomas was somewhere well away from India. And that he was martyred in Mylapuram, TN, is a story that the catholic church (christoPortuguese) invented only in the 16th century. As Sharan explained, this was their christian way of 'legitimising' their christoterrorist takeover of the Hindu Temple there.

See the following (these are things that all Hindus should MEMORISE - MEMORISE, the way you ought to memorise the names of the many early church fathers who've provided damning evidence/witness for the non-existence of the absurdity known as jeebus):

- - contains more from Scott's pamphlet

- - by Frank Zindler

- Go to the Right column of the main page of Kenneth Humphreys'

(Apparently Humphreys is frequently talking on US and UK radio now, debating christists. There's even a video of him talking on SkyTV posted at the site.)

Anyway, in the Right column of the main page of his site are some of his audio files and articles. You'll see the following Telling Section, where each point has associated documents and AUDIOS:

Quote:The Missing Witnesses

[color="#0000FF"]+ No disciples - No Jesus! Read more

+ No one noticed - No Jesus! Read more

+ No Mary – No Jesus! Read more

+ No John- No Jesus! Read more

+ No Paul – No Jesus! Read more

+ No King David – No Jesus! Read more

+ Liars for Jesus – No Jesus! Read more

+ No James – No Jesus! Read more

+ No teachings- No Jesus! Read more[/color]

The point is well-stated. It's what people have been saying for centuries:

It is known in genuine biblical scholarship (long documented) that neither the Apostles nor Paul existed. Same for Mary, James, etc, etc, as is mentioned above. (Entire schools of historians worked on exactly this field: the unhistoricity of jeebus and his gang and the forgery of the babble).

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Husky - 08-24-2011


Now to the 2nd half of the question:

[quote name='ramana' date='24 August 2011 - 12:55 AM' timestamp='1314127040' post='112571']what is there in San Thome Madras?[/quote]

To get to Sharan's answer to your question (he's recently made references to exactly this), scroll down to the later part of this post.

Your guess is as good as mine. But, consider the following two points:

(a) from reading Sharan's St Thomas in India Myth book, recall that there were 6 tombs for Thomas in India itself and many more in other countries (none of those listed in Edessa)., which links to For some reason, is unavailable, so consult Ishwar Sharan's book on his website, or IArchive.

Quote:One of their legends presents their leader St. Thomas the Apostle as the evangelist of China: after allegedly preaching to the Indians, he supposedly came to China and preached to the Chinese as well. It is claimed he then returned to India where he died. Nevertheless, he's given a tomb in China. He's also given a tomb in many other places: Brazil, Germany, Japan, Tibet, Malacca, and no less than 6 tombs in India.

(b ) Where is there an authentic tomb of an apostle? Remember the absurdity of Peter's tomb at the Vatican. In summary (

Quote:Duplicated relics of St Peter at the Vatican: two skulls of St Peter, bones belonging to more than 2 legs and bones of domestic animals including goats, sheep, cows, swine, and a chicken. [Link]

Of Bones and Boners: Saint Peter at the Vatican by Frank R. Zindler (As is obvious from context, the 2nd noun in the title refers to the word's traditional English meaning of 'someone who removes the bones of some creature'. In this case, it's a reference to the bone collectors at the Vatican.)

Relevant excerpt (

Quote:Duplicated relics within the Vatican:

Quote:Down in the basement of the Vatican... beneath the high altar of St. Peter’s Basilica ... boxes filled with old bones, some of which are claimed to be the mortal remains of St. Peter himself.

Ten of the bones thus carefully preserved at this most holy focal point in all of Christendom, however, are the remains of domestic animals — goats, sheep, cows, swine, and a chicken. ...The bones have been certified to be the veritable remains of the Prince of Apostles himself, St. Peter. ...Most precious among the relics remaining of Peter’s skeleton in the Vatican are 29 fragments of one of his skulls. (St. Peter’s other skull is preserved in a reliquary at the Cathedral of St. John Lateran.)

The skeleton and skulls now venerated as the remains of St. Peter are not the only relics of the Prince of Apostles to have been discovered by the Roman Church, however. [More] bones were kept for fourteen years by Pope Pius XII himself, in his private apartment... the ones found in what Pius had certified to be the genuine tomb of St. Peter.

Venerando Correnti, an anthropologist hired by the Vatican in 1956 to study the pope’s prized bones ... discovered five tibias to supplement the three fibulas. This meant that he was dealing with five to eight legs!

In addition to the human remains, Correnti’s collaborator Luigi Cardini identified bones that once galumphed around as hogs, sheep, and goats — and some that scratched around as chickens. Unlike the bones said to have been found inside the graffiti-covered wall, the bones actually taken from the "true tomb of the Prince of Apostles" are not venerated. Quietly, they have been stored away in some secret location."

For those who want to read in full, go to:

Written by none other than American Atheists' multi-lingual editor Zindler - yet another who's famous for entertaining as he educates (although that's what all good writers do).

Quote:Formerly a professor of biology and geology, Frank R. Zindler is now a science writer. He is a member of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the New York Academy of Science, the Society of Biblical Literature, and the American Schools of Oriental Research. he is the Editor of American Atheist.
He's written many articles on the blabla, I mean the babble: unhistoricity of jeebus, the concocted canon, biblical forgeries, falsehoods, etc, etc.

[color="#0000FF"]Also relevant to Ramana's question ("What then is in the 'Thomas' Tomb in Chennai?") are the next 4 points, which all concern Sharan's recent page on the ongoing Thomas lie peddled by the christopaper TOI (the most recent propaganda by TOI on this is dated 20 Aug 2011 = a few days ago):[/color]

1. In the *left* column on the above page, you'll find an image with the heading Idol on the empty tomb in San Thome Cathedral

Note that the image is of Hindu-looking women - complete with Sari and Pottu/Bindi = cryptochristianism (it's pretty bad in TN) - all worshipping at the dead Non-existent Apostle Who Never Came's empty tomb.

When you hover over the image of the "Fake tomb of Thomas in San Thome Cathedral", the text that appears is relevant to your question:

Quote:The plaster idol of St. Thomas lies over the second tomb the Portuguese opened in 1523. Popular belief today is that the archbishop uses the empty tomb as a vault to store the vast wealth of the archdiocese which the Portuguese appropriated from Hindu temples in Mylapore.

2. In the main article of this page (see pt 3), there's an image of bones on display. The caption is again relevant to your question (and bear in mind what's posted above about Peter's bones in Italy):

Quote:San Thome Bishop's Museum: Human bones kept on display in the museum. Whose bones are they? The Portuguese opened the tomb of a Chola prince when they were digging in the old Kapali Temple compound. Are the bones his? - TOI Photo

3. Also on the page is the image caption:

Quote:San Thome Bishop's Museum: Carved temple columns and other Hindu artefacts are kept in the museum. What are they doing there? And what do they represent except material evidence for a Hindu temple on the site before the building of the church. - TOI Photo

You *want* to look at the photo that the above text captions.

Hover over the image, and the text that appears is: "Hindu temple columns in the San Thome Bishop's Museum".

4. Hindus really ought to read the main article on this page ( It's the 2nd article on the page and is from TOI (the first is the familiar one by K Elst). Note that the TOI christian propaganda piece is dated: "Times of India, Chennai, August 20, 2011"

The bid to conquer Hindu TN for christ is on full-speed now. Concerning India, Vatican is speaking out of two mouths: publicly - for the international audience - the Pope has declared that Thomas never came to India ("only to Afghanistan perhaps W Pak"), since christian church history doesn't allow it PLUS church history specifically contradicts the syrian christian nonsense about Thomas. Privately, the Vatican continues to give its footsoldiers in the Indian media and cinema etc. the green light to go ahead and milk the Thomas fable for all its worth to stake Hindu TN into christianism. It's the catholic media in India that regularly harps on the lie "Santa Thomas in India" (recall that many "syrian christians" are catholics not 'orthodox', owing to the famous enthusiastic conversions by the christo-Portuguese of the syrian christian traitors who had invited the christoPortuguese to invade Bharatam). And if there's one thing organised catholics in India *don't* do, it's acting without the (global) church hierarchy's consent in such important and well-organised matters. <- That's how you *know* that the Vatican is where the christians in India got their orders from to continue peddling the "Thomas in India" fiction.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 08-26-2011

We need serious enquiry into the Syriac origin of the Koran and links of Syrian Christians in India to the Muslims, including possible relationship of a vanguard Nasrani group with the Muslims. It is doubtful there were any Christians in India prior to Muslim invasion.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - ramana - 08-27-2011

Dhu, Can you elaborate on this? We do know that Koran has Aramic aka Syrian inputs.We know trade routes were there to ME due to monsoon winds etc. Are you postulating that these trade routes brought Syrian Christians as advance elements of Islam which to me is a new morphing of Old Testament religion?

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 08-27-2011

Thomasian origin of Christians in India is false, as well as the explanation that they were escaping persecution by Rome (the xtians were the ones quite actively persecuting the heathens and consolidating their religion in the 1st millenium). Also not credible is the claim that the heathen culture in India moderated their fanaticism and that they therefore retreated into a shell for nearly a millenium until reunion with their Portuguese better halfs (again impossible given the dynamics of 1st millenium persecuting Christianity).

Now we know that Nasir (ansari) in Islam signifies "helper" and is represented as a faction in the Koran.

Given that the Koran is written in transformed Syriac and that Monotheisms originate as color revolutions, Syriac (and also Indian Syriac) involvement in genesis of Islam needs to be investigated.

Faithfreedom apparently has a thread on the Ansari, Nasrani connection in the Koran.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Husky - 08-28-2011

^ There's stuff relevant to that. May come back to it later. But then, it's nothing you don't already know (I think all of it was pasted by someone or other on IF before. Search IF for "Nestorian".)

Anyway. Some bits and pieces.



on santa Augustine (who famously persecuted Hellenes):


Superstar of the Latin Fathers, Augustine of Hippo wrote the "CIty of God" to absolve Christians from any blame for the fall of Rome.
Humphreys doesn't mince words and gets straight to the point in his one-line summary of Augustine's work.

2. Couldn't locate this earlier, in an above post, when I wanted to link to it.


Contains Sharan's book the St Thomas Myth in a format for online reading. He has a PDF somewhere for offline reading.

3. First the reprise:

It's probably familiar to all that the cross as deeply religious symbol was used until IIRC the 4th century by the heathens of the mediterranean, in particular the Hellenes. The earliest crosses (and crucifixes: of Dionysus) that have been found are Hellenistic, not christian. And they concern the death and rebirth/resurrection of Dionysus (christianism 'invented' the resurrection of jeebus rather late).

The christians slowly usurped crosses *thereafter*. via

Quote:Although a stake called a stauros (the Greek term used in the earliest Bible writings but where English versions incorrectly translate it to "cross") got used to execute criminals, there exists not a shred of evidence that a Biblical stauros describes a cross or even a T-shape.

There occurs no cross in early Christian art before the middle of the 5th century, where it (probably) appears on a coin in a painting. The first clear crucifix appears in the late 7th century. Early Christians usually depicted their religion with a fish symbol (ichthus), dove, or bread of the Eucharist, but never Christ on a cross (or on a stick).

And all that just tells one something about any socalled "ancient" crosses found by syrian christianism in India: they are lately manufactured evidence, of course. Any crosses they point to as establishing their ancientry in India merely underlines that they're lying, and in fact can be taken as admission that their uninvited invasion into India was late.

While as per the catholic church the cross was *officially* inducted into christianism in the 6th or 7th centuries - apparently the cross didn't usurp the fish's position in christianism until some centuries later again:

Quote:"The Cross. About the tenth century the fish was superseded by the cross, which became the universal symbol of the Christian faith." [69].

So now to the point. Following - incl. its use of bold and italic for emphasis - is also from

Quote:from: Sex Symbolism in Religion, J.B. Hannay [1855 - 1931], With an Appreciation by Sir George Birdwood, Privately printed for The Religious Evolution Research Society, 2 volumes, Oakeshott, 1922.

Volume II


'Paul is, of course, only known to us from the "Acts" and the Epistles attributed to him; and in a very learned analysis of the researches on this subject the Encyclopaedia Biblica says:—

Column 3627—"The principal Epistles cannot be the work of Paul," and A.D. Loman, of Amsterdam, "upholds the entirely symbolical character of the whole Gospel history." Column 3624—"We cannot regard the 'Acts' as a true and credible first-hand narrative of what had actually occurred. The Book bears in part a legendary historical and, in part, an edifying and apologetic character." Column 3625—With respect to the Pauline Epistles in the New Testament, "there are none of them by Paul." "Neither fourteen, nor thirteen, nor nine or ten, nor seven or eight, nor yet even the four so long universally regarded as unassailable. They are all, without distinction, pseudepigrapha." [van Manen] So PAUL, AS A WRITER, DISAPPEARS. Column 3630—"THE CONCLUSIONS OF CRITICISM ON OUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE LIFE AND ACTIVITY OF PAUL ARE OF A PURELY NEGATIVE CHARACTER." [NOT ONE POINT OF HIS HISTORY OR ACTIONS HAS BEEN PROVED, OR EVEN SHOWN TO BE PROBABLE; EVERYTHING STATED HAS BEEN SHOWN TO BE FALSE.] [these brackets, by J.B. Hannay] Column 3630—"Thus all the representations formerly current regarding the life and work of Paul must be set aside. These representations are very many and various and discrepant in character; far from showing any resemblance to one another, they exhibit the most inconsistent proportions and features. But, however different they were, they all of them have disappeared; they rested upon a foundation, not of solid rock, but of shifting sand. So, too, . . . the 'ideas,' the 'theology,' the 'system' of Paul" have "irrevocably passed away, the right foundation being wanting." ["]We possess no Epistle of Paul." Column 4145 says that the "Roman Church was not founded by Peter or Paul."' [260-262].

[See: #4, 105-151, passim ("Paul")].

Volume II

[351]. [See: #25, 560]. [See: #3, 41-104, passim ("Jesus")].

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - Husky - 08-28-2011


4. Sharan's comment on Encycopaedia Britannica

Quote:There is a well planned Christian agenda in Wendy Doniger’s Hindu bashing. Chicago is the largest and wealthiest Catholic diocese in the world and it has a large Indian Christian population including Syrian Christians. The University of Chicago is for all intents and purposes a Catholic university. Its Divinity School is world famous. It produces all the religious and cultural references for the Encyclopedia Britannica which has its headquarters in the city too.

The pro-Catholic EB is known for its offensive articles on Hindu society and deities. It also publishes incorrect historical references such as its entry for Thomas the Apostle, which it refuses to change, and for many years was banned in India because of its willfully wrongly drawn India-Kashmir maps.

Wendy Doniger is a contributor to the EB and many other “authoritative” references on Hindu religion and society.

Related to the above comment by Sharan.

The following contains extracts from the eminently readable and knowledgeable ex-catholic, ex-Fransiscan priest Joseph McCabe (aka the "encyclopaedic brain"). Again, except for the blue highlighting, which is my own, the emphases are as in original. You can read it in full at:

Quote:Note: numerous references are made to the 9th, 11th, and 14th editions of the Encyclopaedia Britannica:

9th edition: 1875—1889 ("scholar's edition")

11th edition: 1911 ("famous eleventh edition")

14th edition: 1929—(with revisions, etc.)1973

from: The Lies and Fallacies of the Encyclopedia Britannica, How Powerful and Shameless Clerical Forces Castrated a Famous Work of Reference, Joseph McCabe, Edited by E. Haldeman-Julius, Haldeman-Julius publications ("Big Blue Book", B—608, 46 pages, 21 cm [U.C.S.D. (Private collections) has "5,000" "Blue Books" (not catalogued)]), c1947. [received (reprint), and first seen, 3/18/97].

The Encyclopedia is, as its name implies, an ancient British institution inspired by the great French Encyclopedia of the 18th century [see Addendum A]. As the American reading public increased it served both countries, and by 1920 the special needs of American readers and the great development of science and technics made it necessary to prepare an entirely recast edition. It now had an American as well as a British staff and publishing house, and it was dedicated to King George and President Hoover. The last trace of the idealism of its earlier publishers disappeared. What bargains were secretly made to secure a large circulation we do not know but when the work was completed in 1928 [published 1929 (14th edition)] the Westminster Catholic Federation, which corresponds to the Catholic Welfare organization in America, made this boast in its annual report:

The revision to the Encyclopedia Britannica was undertaken with a view to eliminate matter which was objectionable from a Catholic point of view and to insert what was accurate [sic!] and unbiased [sic!]. The whole of the 28 volumes were examined, objectionable parts noted, and the reasons for their deletion or amendment given. There is every reason to hope that the new edition of the Britannica will be found very much more accurate [sic!] and impartial [sic!] than its predecessors."' [4].

"Castrating the Encyclopedia

It will be useful to give first the outcome of a somewhat cursory survey, page by page, of the first few volumes of the Encyclopedia. More important—in their bearing on the Church—articles in later volumes commonly have the initial X at the close, which seems to be the cloak of the CATHOLIC ADULTERATOR. This will enable any reader to compare for himself passages in the 11TH [1911] AND THE 14TH EDITIONS [1929— (with revisions, etc.)1973], but the conspirator shows his hand even in large numbers of short unsigned, especially biographical, notices. It is, of course, understood that the work had to be considerably abbreviated to accommodate new developments of science and life, in the 14th edition, but when you find that the curtailing consists in suppressing an unpleasant judgment or a fact about a Pope while unimportant statements of fact are untouched, and when you find the life of a saintly man or the flattering appreciation of his work little affected while the life or work of a heretic is sacrificed, you have a just suspicion." [5-6].


'The fine eight-page article on Gibbon [Edward Gibbon 1737 - 1794] by the learned Professor Bury [John Bagnell Bury 1861 - 1927] in the earlier edition could not expect to escape. Space must be saved; though one would hardly realize this when one finds 60 pages devoted to Geometry, which no one ever learns from an encyclopedia. The reviser condenses the six and a half pages of Gibbon's life and character to one page and then sublimely adds his X to Bury's initials as the joint authors of the article. You can guess how much of Gibbon's greatness is left.

On the other hand the notice of Pope "St." Gregory I [c. 540 - 604], the Pope who forbade the opening of schools and made the Papacy the richest landowner and slave-owner in Europe by persuading the rich that the end of the world was at hand and they had better pass on their property to the church, remains as fragrant as ever in the new edition [14th].' [15].


"I cannot go phrase by phrase through this Catholic rubbish. In spite of all its sophistry and suppressions it leaves the Inquisition the most scandalous quasi-judicial procedure that ever disgraced civilization, yet it is not the full truth. It is true that it does not tell the lie that American apologists now do—that the Roman Inquisition never executed men—and it does not even mention, much less challenge, the definite figure of 341,042 victims of the Spanish Inquisition which Llorente, secretary of the Inquisition, canon of the church, and Knight of the Caroline Order, compiled from its archives...." [19-20].

'The article "Libraries" is the next on which X employs his subtle art. I have explained, I think, that X is not one encyclopedic Catholic writer who does all this marvellous work. The explanation given of the X in the first volume of the 14th edition is that it is "the initial used for anonymous writers"; just as the lady whose sins are not to be disclosed in the court is called by the police Mlle X. In all earlier encyclopedias anonymous writers, who do the great body of the hackwork of the encyclopedia, did not need any monogram. But, of course, this was a special arrangement with the Catholic body. It assumes that Committees of Catholics on both sides of the Atlantic were appointed to scrutinize all articles bearing upon Catholic myths and to cut out and modify, no matter on what authority it rested, any statement that the Catholic clergy do not like. Whether any other sort of anonymous critics were allowed to do similar work and wear the mask I do not know. I have not noticed an X anywhere except where truth has been slain or mutilated by a Catholic sword.' [23].


Father Taunton [11th edition)] ["Jesuit Father Taunton...more liberal than a good Jesuit ought to be" (36)]—once more in agreement with our historians—says that Torquemada [1420 - 1498 (Dominican ("The Hounds of Hell"!))] burned 10,000 victims of the Inquisition in 18 years ["while"] the reviser inserts "but modern research reduces the list of those burned to 2,000." As no signature is subjoined while Taunton's initials are suppressed, the reader is given to understand that this correction of Llorente's [(see 378) Juan Antonio Llorente 1756 - 1823, Spanish priest and historian (see: Cambridge Bio. Dict., 1990, 905)] figures is given on the authority of the Britannica. As a matter of fact, what the writer means is that one or two Catholic priests like Father Gams have been juggling with the figures so as to bring down enormously Llorente's figure of the total victims of the Spanish Inquisition. Their work is ridiculous. Llorente was not only for years in high clerical dignity and esteem in Spain, but, as its secretary, he had the archives of the Inquisition and copied from them. But this is one of the new tricks of Catholic writers. Saying that "recent research" or "recent authorities" have corrected some statement about their church they give a few names of priests, knowing that the reader never heard of them and suppressing the "Rev." or "Father." A priest can become an expert on a section of history as well as any man but he will never tell the whole truth about it and he will strain or twist the facts at any time in the interest of his church.' [36].

(Note in the above the typical christian tactic of minisation of even early genocides: they can't deny it so they resort to the next best thing, minimising it, of which minimising the number of casualties is the first step. The catholic church tried the same for the catholic genocide of orthodox Serbs in WWII.)


"Keeton [("Professor G.W. Keeton") author of the article "Torture"] is a pious member of the Church of England, and he is no more willing than X to admit that Christianity kept the world at a low level of civilization. He makes the general remark that the nations of Europe borrowed the practice from ancient Rome—as if a man could excuse his crimes by pleading that he simply copied them from a civilization which he professed to regard as pagan and vicious—and he darkens the case against the Romans." [37].


'Give a priest an inch and he will take an ell [sic] of a lot. He does not learn casuistry for nothing. Under cover of the need of abbreviation he has deleted whole paragraphs, even columns of facts which were offensive to him because they flatly contradicted what he said or wrote, and then, possibly fearing that he had cut out too much, he inserted sentences or paragraphs which "put the Catholic point of view." He has taken phrases or paragraphs of the original writers of the articles and, while r[e]taining their initials, he has repeatedly turned them inside out or has said that "recent research" (the gymnastic of some other Catholic apologist) has corrected his statements.

And I say that for an encyclopedia to allow this and not candidly explain it to the public but even try to prevent the Catholics disclosing it is a piece of deception. The writers who did the work had not the decency—or were they forbidden?—to give their names, as other contributors do. It is therefore possible that the plea may be urged that various groups of folk were engaged in the work of correcting errors in the 11th edition and it was thought best to lump all these little men together as Mlle. X. We are, however, intrigued by the fact that all these alterations, suppressions, and additions that I have examined uniformly SERVE THE INTERESTS OF CATHOLIC PROPAGANDA AND ARE GENERALLY CHARACTERIZED BY THE FAMILIAR CHIEF FEATURE OF THAT PROPAGANDA—UNTRUTHFULNESS.' [44].

'When the Catholic objects that "historians" dispute a point he generally means that it is disputed by historians of his own church: the men who say that Peter was buried at Rome and Torquemada burned only 2,000 heretics, that the Dark Age was bright with culture and virtue and the Age of Chivalry and the Crusaders irradiated the entire world, that the church was just tainted a little by a wicked world at one time but it soon purified itself by a Counter-Reformation, that there was horrible butchery at the French, Russian and Spanish Revolutions, that the Christian church abolished slavery and gave the world schools, hospitals, democracy, art, and science, and a thousand other fantastic things. [color="#0000FF"]If encyclopedias propose to embody these SELF-INTERESTED ANTICS OF CATHOLIC PROPAGANDISTS the public ought to know it.' [45].


I do not in the least say that it is the only work of public reference that has been so used. The new Encyclopedia Americana betrays a lamentable degree of Catholic influence, and even the more scholarly Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics has curried favor with Catholics by entrusting a number of important articles ("Inquisition," etc.) to Catholic writers, with the usual disastrous results; while manuals of European, especially medieval, history by some American professors strain or suppress evidence scandalously to suit Catholic authorities. I HAVE HERE MERELY GIVEN THE DEFINITE EVIDENCE IN ONE FIELD THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH USES ITS ENORMOUS WEALTH AND VOTING POWER TO POISON THE WELLS OF TRUTH AND TO CONCEAL FROM THE PUBLIC THE FACTS OF HISTORY WHICH MAKE A MOCKERY OF THE FANTASTIC CLAIMS IT ADVANCES TODAY.' [45].[/color]

"Who wants in a modern encyclopedia the mass of stuff about saints and martyrs, which are to a great extent pure FICTION". [45].

"I have a small Rationalist Encyclopedia [see #8, 215] presently appearing in London which I wrote six or seven years ago. It will show how different the truth, gathered from the works of experts, is from the stuff one reads in encyclopedia-articles on matters affecting one's philosophy of life; though I fear it will be issued in two expensive volumes, instead of the cheap fortnightly parts (as originally intended) of my larger American publications, and my labor will be virtually wasted; for [color="#0000FF"]THE CLERGY WILL SEE THAT PUBLIC LIBRARIES DO NOT GET IT. It is a lamentable situation, for FROM THE RELIGIOUS FIELD THIS MODERN MANIPULATION OF TRUTH EXTENDS TO MANY OTHERS.[/color] I hope this short investigation will help to open the eyes of the American public to its new mental slavery."

[End of text] [46].


Hindus betray no comprehension of the christian determination behind suppression of truth and peddling of untruth (also seen in the communists in India - but then, the monotheistic tendency is ever the same).

All the above is why the latest encyclopaedia fad known as "Wikipedia" (the most ridiculous encyclopaedia of them all, because it's based on the principle that 'truth is established by those who lobby with greatest determination') is full of christist lying. Wikipedia has replaced Britannica etc etc down to the more recent Encarta (all of which were entirely doctored by christianism when it came to articles concerning their own religions and particularly also when it came to Hindu religion) - the replacement of existing encyclopaedias by Wikipedia is in terms of accessibility/visibility and hence in importance/relevance/prominence, as per the view of the church. So all of christianism is working to control Wackypedia. Modern christian cults often give up since they can't control the (to them) crucial evolution vs the laughable 'creationism' - the non-religious west guards science at atleast - and so modern christocults have even resorted to creating a parallel wiki encyclopedia to put their christian views into. In contrast, catholicism, foremost as ever, but also the other established christianism, want to control what the *general* public reads: about christianism and also (and this is where it specifically concerns Hindus) what Hindus and even others read about Hindu religion. Christianism wants to write Hindus' history for Hindus. Rather like the christobrits before them tried their best to.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - HareKrishna - 08-28-2011

Is there any evidence that syrian christians came in India in the 4 century?

Im not an expert but syrian rituals seem to be of late 10 century if not more.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 08-31-2011

The following demonstrates RCC origin of Islam, the aim appears to have been to displace the Persians

[url=""]The Fall of Rome - A Quranic Prophecy[/url]

Quote:The following are the beginning verses of Surah Room:

“The Romans have been defeated in the near land (to al-Hijaz) and after their defeat they will soon be victorious in a few years time.”

To understand the prophecy, it is preferable to refer to the commentary made by Allamah Ahmad Uthmani. This is as follows:

“It means within nine years, the Greeks shall overcome the Persians, because in the Arabic lexion and in Hadith the word mentioned in the afore-mentioned aayah, implies a period ranging from three to nine years. In this verse the Holy Quran has made a wonderous prophecy, which is the proof of its truthfulness. The fact is that the two great empires of the time – the Persian and Roman Empires – were in conflict for a long period of time. They remained fighting from 602 CE to 614 CE and onwards.” Our Prophet Muhammad Peace and Blessings be upon him was born in 517 CE and was bestowed with prophethood at the age of forty, as given in the Encyclopedia Britannica.

News of the battle between both sides reached the Makkans now and then.

Meanwhile, the claim to prophethood by the Holy Prophet Peace and Blessings be upon him and the establishment of the Islamic movement created a special interest for the Makkans in the news coming from the war-zone.

The Persian fire worshippers had a special relation with the Makkan idolaters, whereas the Muslims were related (due do their belief in a single Supreme Being) to the Romans, who were followers of the Christian religion. Whenever the news of the victory of the Persians came, the idolaters became glad and thereby took the prophecy of their own victory over the Muslims, leading them to cherish good hopes for the future. Muslims were naturally shocked that the Christians who were known as the people of the book should be over-powered by the fire worshippers.

After the year 614 CE when 45 Lunar years had passed by since the birth of the Prophet Peace and Blessings be upon him of which the last five years consisted of his prophethood, Kosros II (the Persian Emperor) gave a crushing and decisive defeat to the Romans. The Middle East, Asia Minor etc. were by now in the hands of the Persians. Heraclitus (the roman leader) was forced to take refuge in Constantinople and the Roman capital was also in danger. Priests were either slain or made prisoners. Caesars sovereignty no longer existed. Now it seemed that the Romans had no longer the power to free these lands from the Persian occupation. By acknowledging these conditions, the Makkan idolaters were overjoyed and they teased the Muslims. They were ambitious and hopeful to such an extent that they remarked to Hadhrat Abu Bakr May Allah be pleased with him, “Today our Persian brothers have blotted out your Roman friends, tomorrow we shall exterminate you like them.”

This is when the Quraan made a general proclamation against the external factors that, no doubt the Persians vanquished the Romans for a while, but within nine years they would again become triumphant.

On the basis of this prediction, Hadhrat Abu Bakr May Allah be pleased with him made a bet with some of the idolaters (betting was not prohibited at that time) that if the Romans did not get victory within nine years, he would give them a hundred camels, otherwise they would give him a certain number of camels. In the beginning Hadhrat Abu Bakr May Allah be pleased with him appointed ‘bidh’a sineen’ (a few more years) as three years from his own opinion. Bur afterwards, at the bidding of the Prophet Peace and Blessings be upon him, the covenant was made on the term of nine years, which is the real application of the word ‘bidha’. On the other side, the Caesar of the Roman Empire was determined to regain the lost power and vowed that if he defeated the Persians, he would go to ‘Baitul Maqdis’ by foot. Behold the power of Allah! According to the Quranic prediction, right within nine years, after the passing of one year of Hijrah, on the day of Badr, when the Muslims were rejoicing in the clear victory over the idolaters, by the grace of Allah, became happier with the news that Allah had made the Romans (the people of the book) to prevail over the Persians fire-worshippers. In this way the idolaters got a double blow of disgrace.

Observing this Divine revelation issued by the Holy Quran, many people embraced Islam and Hadhrat Abu Bakr May Allah be pleased with him won a hundred camels from the idolaters, about which the Prophet Peace and Blessings be upon him ordered that they should be given in alms. Praise be to Allah for his external bounties and manifest signs.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - ramana - 09-02-2011

Charles E. Carter, "John and Empire: Initial Explorations"

Publisher: T&T Clark Int'l | ISBN 10: 0567027031 | 2008 | 440 pages |

Quote:In this significant and innovative contribution, Warren Carter explores John's Gospel as a work of imperial negotiation in the context of Ephesus, capital of the Roman province of Asia. Carter employs multiple methods, rejects sectarian scenarios, and builds on other Christian writings and recent studies of diaspora synagogues that combined participationist lifestyles with observance of distinctive practices to argue that imperial negotiation was a contested issue for late first-century Jesus-believers. While a number of Jesus-believers probably lived societally-accommodated lives, John's Gospel employs a "rhetoric of distance" to urge much less accommodation and to create an alternative "anti-society" for followers of Jesus crucified by the empire but vindicated by God.In addition to establishing this tense historical setting, chapters identify various arenas and strategies of imperial negotiation in wide-ranging discussions of the gospel's genre, plot, Christological titles, developing traditions, eternal life, the image of God as father, ecclesiology, Jesus' conflict with Pilate, and resurrection and ascension.Carter has explored interactions between the emerging Christian movement and the Roman Empire in various articles and book-length studies such as Matthew and the Margins (Orbis), Matthew and Empire (Trinity Press International/Continuum), Pontius Pilate: Portraits of a Roman Governor (Liturgical), and The Roman Empire and the New Testament (Abingdon).

So its John's gospel that drives the Imperium ideas of Christianity and this shows in even Islam.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - ramana - 09-12-2011

The Atlantic Magazine has an article on Mel Gibson making a movie on Judah Maccabee and his revolt

Mel Gibson on Judah Maccabee

The important item is that without the Maccabeean revolt against the Romans there would never be a Jesus.

Further see the role of circumcision in the Judaism, reform Judaism aka Christianity and even Islam.

Historicity of Jesus - 2 - dhu - 09-12-2011

Circumcision (castration) was the mark of the slave in the Greco-Roman Empire.

Unsurprisingly, it is this exact practice with the "revolutionary monotheists" deem as their cultural legacy.

Regarding Herodotus' book of psyops..

Quote:450 BCE

Greek historians note prevalence of circumcision and other penile mutilations among the Arabs and other Middle Eastern tribes. Herodotus (485-420 BCE) observes and deplores circumcision among the Colchians, Ethiopians, Phoenicians, Syrians, and Macrones, as well as the Egyptian priestly caste. He criticizes the fanatical ritual cleanliness of the Egyptian priests: "They [even] practice circumcision for the sake of cleanliness, considering it better to be clean than handsome" - a perverse sacrifice in Greek eyes. (The context is things Egyptians do that are the reverse of what other, more sensible, people do.) He reports that the salutary influence of Greek culture led the Phoenicians to abandon circumcision. (See Frederick Hodges, "The ideal prepuce", including excellent illustrations from Greek art and sculpture).

Quote:First five books of Hebrew Bible (Torah) compiled, including Genesis with its reference to Yaweh’s command to Abraham to circumcise himself, his sons and his slaves and servants. Circumcision enforced by priests among Jewish people as sign of the Covenant.