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Historicity Of Jesus - Printable Version
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Historicity Of Jesus - Printable Version

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Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 09-23-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->topos:

My background is totally different. I know very little about the bible and still haven't read the gospels. I was indoctrinated to become Christian but not terrbly seriously and I rejected it pretty early on in favor of science. So, my angle is totally different from that guy <b>but I feel pretty much the same way, that unless they somehow suppress it, Caesar's Messiah is going to kill Christianity dead dead dead. </b>Good riddance.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 09-24-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->decapolis

The area of the Decapolis was the scene of a number of New Testament events -

    * Jesus Christ cured a man of demon possession near Gadara:
      "And He was asking him, What is your name? And he said to Him, My name is Legion; for we are many. And he began to implore Him earnestly not to send them out of the country. Now there was a large herd of swine feeding nearby on the mountain. The demons implored Him, saying, Send us into the swine so that we may enter them. Jesus gave them permission. And coming out, the unclean spirits entered the swine; and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea, about two thousand of them; and they were drowned in the sea." (Mark 5:9-13 NIV)

    * Later, the man cured of demon possession sought to go with The Lord:
      "As He was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed was imploring Him that he might accompany Him. And He did not let him, but He said to him, Go home to your people and report to them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He had mercy on you. And he went away and began to proclaim in Decapolis what great things Jesus had done for him; and everyone was amazed." (Mark 5:18-20 NIV)

    * Jesus cured a man of deafness there:
      "Again He went out from the region of Tyre, and came through Sidon to the Sea of Galilee, within the region of Decapolis. They brought to Him one who was deaf and spoke with difficulty, and they implored Him to lay His hand on him. Jesus took him aside from the crowd, by himself, and put His fingers into his ears, and after spitting, He touched his tongue with the saliva; and looking up to heaven with a deep sigh, He said to him, Ephphatha! that is, Be opened! And his ears were opened, and the impediment of his tongue was removed, and he began speaking plainly." (Mark 7:31-35 NIV)

    * The Lord became very popular in the area:
      "The news about Him spread throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all who were ill, those suffering with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, paralytics; and He healed them. Large crowds followed Him from Galilee and the Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from beyond the Jordan." (Matthew 4:24-25 NIV)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

there are enough leads in the following that it will take at least a few months to sort out: there is also an implication of the greek pursuit of "perfection of form".

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapolis

..The imperial cult, the worship of the Roman emperor, was a very common practice throughout the Decapolis and was one of the features that linked the different cities. A small style of temple dedicated to the Emperor, called a Kalybe, was unique to the region.
..<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 09-24-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Re: Carrier and Atwill's email exchange

Carrier statement above that I “sent him a barrage of “examples�? is inaccurate. When I read his original comments on my thesis it was clear that he hadn’t read the book, so I sent him a short synopsis stating that: “as you were commenting upon the thesis, I thought you would appreciate such a description.�?

Carrier then asked that I send him “my best example�? of the thesis, to which I replied:

“If you wish to understand the thesis, however, there is no shortcut to reading the book, as the system that I maintain exists between the Gospels and Josephus is both incrementally built and interrelated. Thus, as with the Jesus/Moses typology in Mathew, no single parallel is capable of even demonstrating the thesis, which can only be understood by viewing the overall mapping. As in the Jesus/Moses typology in Matthew, a number of the parallels between Jesus and Titus can only be seen within the overall mapping scheme.�?

He still refused to read the work however, instead asking me to send him, not “examples’, but the citations of a few of the related passages. And this is what I sent him, merely the citations of a few of the parallels. Thus, when you read Carrier’s ‘review’ above bear in mind that he is not commenting upon my analysis – he has not read the book - but is simply making up the connections between the passages as it suits him. I will give an example of the folly of this below.

The only aspect of my work that we communicated on in any depth whatsoever was concerning the ‘Demoniac of Gadara’. Carrier felt that this was an invalid parallel since, in his opinion, ‘Gadara’ had not been the location given in the original Gospels but was a ‘corruption’. For some reason, Carrier does not discuss the details of this exchange in his above critique, only stating that - “It's also the wrong place (Atwill struggles against all contemporary scholarship to insist that Gadara was the original reading in the Gospels when in fact it almost certainly was not--and yet his parallel requires Gadara)�?. I therefore present the actual exchange below so that readers may judge our “struggle�? for themselves.

Carrier began his rebuttal of the parallel by pointing out that Origen had written that “earlier versions had Gerasa�?. To which I replied:

“I hope you don't mind my passing along a correction to your understanding of Origen's position on Gadara. He did not write that: "earlier manuscripts had Gerasa", rather he wrote that the "earlier manuscripts had "Gadaraenes". He is silent as to whether or not any earlier manuscript gave a different location.�?

Carrier then attempted to argue that ‘Gadara’ was a ‘corruption’ on geographical grounds because it (the city of Gadara) is not on the Sea of Galilee, to which I pointed out that in the NT ‘Gadara’ is described as a ‘country’ and that this is confirmed by Josephus who wrote that Gadara ‘possessed villages’. Carrier then argued that it was nevertheless impossible for Gadara to have possessed villages next to the Sea as this would have been “blocked by Hippos�?.

To which I responded:

“Richard, your statement: “Hippos would certainly have had villages near the sea, but they would be between the sea and any villages held by Gadara.�? is geometrically incorrect. If you simply take a ruler and chart lines from Hippos, Gadara, Tiberius and Scythopolis to the Sea of Galilee you will find that it is indeed possible for Gadara to have possessed villages next to Lake Tiberius. You are inventing facts (that Hippos possessed villages that ‘blocked’ Gadara from having villages next to the Sea).

Further, your statement that: “yet even his own short estimate places Gadara several hours away from the sea�? underscores the logical absurdity of your position - that Gadara could not be the place of the Gospel demoniac story because of its location - since even that distance is within the range of distance a herd of swine could travel, Bear in mind that no distances or times are given in the Gospel’s story for the swine's journey – which, of course, is unhistorical to begin with. The fact that the Gospels’ story describes a ‘country’ of Gadara and Josephus describes Gadara’s ‘villages’ – however one translates Life 9, 42 - and thereby makes the ‘country of Gadara’ as possibly even closer to the Sea of Galilee than the city, makes your ‘impossibility due to location’ thesis untenable.�?

He then reverted to his claim “that all of the earliest mss. have Gerasa or Gergesa not Gadara�?, thus proving that Gadara was not the location originally written in the Gospels.

To which I replied:

�?Your statement: “That all the earliest mss. that survive of Mark, Matthew, and Luke have Gerasa or Gergesa, not Gadara, confirms this (including an actual papyrus from Luke dated to the very time of Origen)�? is clearly contradicted by Origen who knew of even earlier manuscripts that had ‘Gadara’. And notice that he only states knowledge of manuscripts with Gadara; he is silent as to whether or not other manuscripts gave another city. Obviously there were ‘early manuscripts’ with Gadara as why else, your conjectures regarding corruption aside, would the received texts give that city?

Carrier then switched gears and returned to the ‘geographical’ aspect of his argument but changed his position from it being a “certainty�? that Hippos had “blocked�? Gadara from possessing villages next to the Sea to merely a ‘probability’, to which I replied:

“You did not write "probably was�?, what you wrote was: “Hippos would certainly have had villages near the sea, but they would be between the sea and any villages held by Gadara.�? As I pointed out, this is statement of fact that you made up. And as far as your new position that there is a ‘probability’ of Gadara not having villages near the Sea of Galilee, I only say that you are now making this up. What evidence do you have for such an assertion? Zero, right?

Further, your position that the demons could not have run six miles to the sea fits your criticism of my position to a tee – “That's exactly the kind of silly and desperate contrivance that biblical literalists depend on to eliminate contradictions in the Bible.�?

Richard, the story about the swine did not happen. No swine were ever possessed by demons and ran to the sea. It’s symbolic, amigo, but of what? My thesis has explanatory power, what is your explanation for the story being in the Gospels?�?

At this point, rather than presenting evidence for his position that Hippos had ‘blocked’ Gadara, Carrier took a new tact stating that the parallels I show between Jesus’s ministry and Titus’ campaign were “inevitable�?.

He wrote:

“These are inevitable parallels--they are true of hundreds of people in history. It's like the scores of "parallels" between Lincoln and Kennedy that circulate on the web. We need good examples, not questionable ones. Not because Josephus couldn't have intended these parallels, but because we have no way of knowing whether he did from all-too-common attributes like these.�?

To which I replied:

“Your position that the parallels are “inevitable�? is clearly incorrect. Here I believe your claim can be shown to be false to almost a mathematical certainty. We do have a way of knowing if Josephus intended these parallels.

First, I challenge you to find even a single person who experienced even one half the plausible typologically related events with Jesus as those I show exist between him and Titus. And trust me, Richard, when I say that you would spend the rest of your life without finding these sorts of parallels to Jesus' ministry in the life of any other person. A few minutes of thought about the project should be all it takes to convince you of this. However, even if you did, amazingly, find in, say, a campaign of Napoleon, a cannibalized ‘son of Mary’, a fishing for men incident, and a crucifixion of three people that one somehow survived etc. are you really arguing that these parallels could have occurred in the same order? I will be happy to calculate the probability of that having happened if you like. The famous Lincoln - Kennedy parallels that you cite - I'm sure you will admit - while interesting did not occur in the same order. Such parallels do not occur in the same order accidentally because they can not. For example, ignoring the Gospels, you will not even be able to cite a single example – in all of human history - of such sequential parallelism that occurred accidentally between two individuals.

I would like to repeat this point as it is key: "you will not even be able to cite a single example – in all of human history - of such sequential parallelism that occurred accidentally". Or, do you have a single example?

Carrier, for some reason, ignored my challenge but again returned to his ‘corruption’ argument, this time modifying his position that “all the earliest mss. have Gerasa or Gergesa�? to “only Matthew�? gave Gadara - which is like being a little bit pregnant. He also provided a much needed moment of levity in the exchange with the following ‘crystal clear’ and ‘parsimonious’ description of how the corruption ‘Gadara’ made its way into the Gospels.

He wrote:

�?Only Matthew has anything like an early reading of Gadara. That confirms the original reading was not Gadara: since Mark wrote first and Luke and Matthew both copied Mark, the corruption to Gadara had to happen either between Mark and Matthew (or by Matthew) or after Matthew “

To which I responded:

“This new position clearly contradicts the one you made in your previous email that “all the earliest mss. that survive of Mark, Matthew, and Luke have Gerasa or Gergesa, not Gadara�?. And as far as your tortured vision regarding the copying and corruption of the Gospels I can only say if you feel this has proven to the satisfaction of most NT scholars you are in a dream world where your opinions have become dogma. Further, your ability to determine ‘corruptions’ from text is not supported by even a shred of evidence. Nothing. Your position is simply that ‘Gadara’ must be a corruption because it is not next to the ‘sea’, which as I have shown is not simply a weak thesis, but absurd.�?

At this point, for some reason, Carrier broke off our “struggle�? and then produced the above critique – though he had previously stated that he was finished commenting in this thread – but even here making a number of obvious mistakes. For example, his statement: “And why does Atwill think a legion is "too small for an army" when a legion was by definition an army?�? - is clearly incorrect. A legion may be a component of an army, but an army is not a component of a legion - the very essence of the relationship I maintain exists between the passages. To verify that Josephus held my understanding and not Carrier’s, of the relationship between an ‘army’ and a ‘legion’ see Wars, 6, 4, 237.

Also notice his explanation of the name of the woman – Mary -, who ate her son,

“Josephus clearly chose the name Mary because this is the name of the sister of Moses, the only prominent woman in the Exodus (hence Passover) narrative, especially given the meaning of her name, as Atwill himself notes: "rebellion."

Carrier is thus agreeing with my insight that the name ‘Mary’ – meaning rebellious female – could well have been selected by Josephus for symbolic purposes. However, as he accepts it in this case, this undermines his position that the passage is not connected to the Gospels, where every female central to Jesus’ ministry is also named Mary or Martha the Aramaic version of Mary. He explains away the ‘many Marys’ in the Gospels simply by claiming that “Mary is too common a name to be remarkable�?. But what evidence of that does he have that the name was “too common�? – the Gospels? This is circular reasoning.

Moreover, those who have actually read Caesar’s Messiah will recognize that his statement: -

“Had the baby been called Jesus, then Atwill might have had something. Or if the Gospels identified the mother of Jesus as "Mary the daughter of Eleazar" or "from the town of Bethezob," as the Mary in Josephus is. Or had any gospel identified any other Mary as being the actual daughter of Lazarus ("Eleazar"), instead of his sister, as they actually do (Jn. 11:2). But alas, no such connections are there.�? -

confirms my claim that Carrier is simply attacking his conjectures not my analysis, which goes into this relationship in such detail. This is the type of blunder that is inevitable when someone ‘critiques’ a work they haven’t read.

Finally, I would point out that even the methodology Carrier is attempting to use to critique a work that he hasn’t read is demonstrably incorrect. My thesis is that the precise typology between Moses and Jesus is extended to Jesus and Titus - the life of the first savior of Israel, Moses, ‘foresaw’ the second, Jesus, whose life then ‘foresaw’ the final ‘savior’, Titus. And, as readers can ascertain for themselves, his method of critique would not uncover a single one of the typological relationship between Jesus and Moses and, therefore, is irrelevant as far as my thesis. I pointed this out to him several times but, for some reason, he did not respond.

I wrote:

"You have shown that there are ways to tear apart the linkages I present. But this is not important as the same approach would beget the same results with the typology between Jesus and Moses. Thus, your methodology is incorrect. To understand if deliberate typological linkage is occurring between Jesus and Titus we must use the ‘instructions’ left for us by the authors of the Gospels themselves, nothing else can be considered. Therefore, first looks for conceptual parallels - and all of the parallels I present, obviously, meet this criterion - next check location and then compare sequence. If everything matches you are either looking at the work of God in the lives of men, or someone is pulling your leg."

The ideas in Caesar’s Messiah deserve a full acid bath of criticism, but I would hope that critics read the book before they attack, as this aids coherency.


Joe<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 09-25-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->A number of scholars have noticed <b>similarities between the `Commune
Asiae', the Roman bureaucracy that administered the imperial court in
Asia, and the organization of the seven cities described in
Revelation. </b>In fact, Revelation was produced by the `Commune Asiae'.
There are a number of ways to demonstrate this, but the shortest is
simply recognizing that<b> the `deified Caesars' – the individuals the
Commune Asiae was responsible to have worshipped – were portrayed
as `angels' in Revelation.</b>

The first five of the Angels in Revelation 8 below are
representations of the Caesars that Suetonius recorded as having been
deified. To be able to recognize the identity of the `angels' it is
first necessary to know that not all of the Caesars had been made a
god by the Senate. <b>Suetonius recorded that the only Caesars to whom
the title `diuus' was bestowed were Julius, Augustus, Claudius,
Vespasian and Titus.
</b>
Thus, the `Angels' in Revelation are described in the order of the
reigns of the divine Caesars they represent and each possesses a
defining characteristic of that particular `diuus'. While some
elements of the symbolism in the pattern may seem trivial, other
details are very specific and the overall sequence the details create
could not occur by accident.

What the author of Revelation is requiring is that a reader
recognizes, not just the parallels between the Caesars and the
angels, but that the parallels occur in the same sequence as the
lives of the defied Caesars. Only then can a reader recognize that
the pattern of parallel details is of sufficient length to verify
that the `angels' of Revelation are representations of the defied
Caesars.

To digress, another detail necessary to understand Revelation's
imagery is<b> in the the first century a star denoted the heavenly
existence corresponding to a divine being - i.e. Caesar - located on
earth. </b>Thus, in the language of the Roman poets, the divine figure of
the Emperor on earth had a star in heaven that corresponds to the
Emperor and was his heavenly counterpart. An Imperial family could as
a whole also have its star, or be a star. For example, Horace (Odes,
i, 12) speaks of the Julian star shining like the moon amid the
lesser fires.

When Domitian built a Temple of the Flavian family in 95 CE, the poet
Statius described him as placing the stars of the Flavians into a new
heaven (Silvae, v, I, 240f). Statius's poem may have been the basis
for the `star' imagery in Revelation: In both works the new Temple on
earth corresponds to a new heaven framed to contain the new stars.

Only with such knowledge will the identities of the angels become
visible. The <b>first</b>' angel' is Julius Caesar who had his most famous
battle campaigns "on the earth". The <b>second </b>is Augustus who had his
most famous victory over Marc Anthony on the sea. Augustus also
destroyed Alexandria, which was the "something like a great mountain,
burning with fire, was thrown into the sea" described below. The
<b>third </b>Angel is Claudius, who was killed by poisoning, which is why
his star fell to earth and was named "wormwood", a poison. The <b>fourth</b>
angel obviously represents Vespasian, the Caesar who had both a solar
and lunar eclipses occur during his reign.

"For the eclipse of both sun and moon within 15 days of each other
has occurred even in our time, in the year of the third consulship of
Vespasian". Pliny

The <b>fifth </b>angel conducted a siege for `five months' and is Titus,
whose only siege (Jerusalem) lasted five months.

As in the Gospels, the underlining premise the author is using to
build his veiled message is that that unusual parallels can not occur
sequentially by accident. While virtually any one of the details
linking an `angel' to a Caesar might be accidental, a sequence
containing such unusual parallels is unlikely to have occurred
accidentally.

7: The <b>first </b>angel blew his trumpet, and there followed hail and
fire, mixed with blood, which fell on the earth; and a third of the
earth was burnt up, and a third of the trees were burnt up, and all
green grass was burnt up.

8: The <b>second </b>angel blew his trumpet, and something like a great
mountain, burning with fire, was thrown into the sea;

9: and a third of the sea became blood, a third of the living
creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10: The <b>third </b>angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from
heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers
and on the fountains of water.

11: The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became
wormwood, and many men died of the water, because it was made bitter.

12: The <b>fourth </b>angel blew his trumpet, and a third of the sun was
struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a
third of their light was darkened; a third of the day was kept from
shining, and likewise a third of the night.

And the <b>fifth </b>angel opened the shaft of the bottomless pit,.
Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth,
they were allowed to torture them for five months,.

My complete analysis of Revelation – I give the identity of the `Lord
God' and the meaning of the infamous 666, as well as the identities
of the sixth and seventh `angels' –can be found at :

http://110559.aceboard.net/

As it is lengthy, the analysis is divided into two posts.
Joe Atwill
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 09-26-2007

The placement of Christianity within the spectrum of "mystery religions" (eg by the celebrated Robert Price) is the "western" attempt to impart a certain organicity (on the order of 'dharma') to its own genesis. Atwill commits the ultimate sacrilege against the west by emphasizing western origin as a conspiracy (Indeed Titus is called the greatest forger by Seutonius? and others). an extraordinary anti-tradition as christianity requires such an extraordinary genesis. We also have records of Gypsies in Europe speaking a coded language upon entering this space.


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 09-26-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://markandmore.wordpress.com/

The Blind and the Crucified
Filed under: Celtic, Emperor Worship, Germanic, parallels, relics — markandmore @ 10:19

The final version of John’s gospel is generally taken to be later than the three synoptics. There are additions in it that can be taken as ecumenical with the European religions. <b>The main detail that we will look at today has correspondences with Germanic and Celtic religions, although not with other Mediterranean religions.</b>

    John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
    19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
    19:35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

A) By adding the spear, the crucifixion of Jesus resembles those of Esus and particularly Odin. Esus had been popularized among educated Romans by Lucan’s epic poem Pharsalia in the +60s. The religion of the northern Teutons and Germans was at this time more the Vanir fertility religion rather than the Odinistic warrior religion. However the Odinists may have started on their migration from Anatolia to Russia to Scandinavia by the +first century as reported in Snorri Sturluson, popularized by Manly P. Hall and as semi-confirmed in Thor Heyerdahl’s last project before he died. Some think that the references to ‘Mercury’ in Tactitus’ Germania (circa +98) are references to Odin. However Snorri Sturluson is late (13th century), but what matters is that during the Christianization of the northern lands, the Crucifixion of Jesus and that of Odin were compared.

B) The spear itself has a fascinating afterlife appearing in the Grail legends, and being possessed by Adolf Hitler until he was defeated. However, like mosheilige_lanze_02.jpgt Christian relics, there are multiple spears.

C) John does not name the soldier with the spear, but in the Acts of Pilate (4th century maybe) the soldier is said to be a centurion named Longinus. This may be based the Greek word for spear: ‘longke’. The name of course appeals to those (see Gary Courtney and Francesco Carotta) who see the gospels as rewrites of the hagiography of Julius Caesar for Gaius Cassius Longinus was a major plotter in the Julian Passion. <b>In Dante’s Inferno, Cassius Longinus along with Marcus Junius Brutus and Judas Iscariot are the only persons deemed sinful enough to be chewed in the three mouths of Satan.
</b>
D) Improbably, for an occupying army, the centurion Longinus was also said to be blind.

There are several parallels of blind executioners

  1. Baldr was the second son of Odin, the All-father. After he dreamed of his death, the gods made every object vow never to harm Baldr, but they overlooked the lowly mistletoe. Loki, the trickster, made a spear from mistletoe and took it to where the gods played their new game of throwing things at Baldr who was never harmed. He gave it to the blind god Hodr, Baldr’s brother, who threw it and inadvertently killed. This is the first event leading up to Ragnorak, and after the destruction of the old gods, a resurrected Baldr will inaugurate a new age.
  2. The Christian saint Alban was condemned to be beheaded, and as the deed was done his executioner became blind.
  3. In the Ulster tale of Fergus and Medb, they are fornicating in the lake to the chagrin of King Ailill, Medb’s husband. Ailill persuaded the blind spear-thrower Lugaid - who has never missed his aim - to throw in the direction of Fergus.lemminkainens_mother.jpg
  4. Lemminkäinen, the hero of the Finnish epic the Kelevala, is shot by a blind herdsman, and ends up piecemeal until his mother, like Isis with Osiris, puts the body back together, and resurrects it.
  5. Our conceptualization of Justice sees her as blindfolded and with a sword.
  6. The Swiss town Sursee in canton Lucerne has an annual festival of Gansabhauet (=beheading the goose) where executioners drawn by lot are blindfolded and attack a dead goose.

As I said, John 19,34 is amazingly ecumenical.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 09-26-2007


The Letters to the Seven Churches of Asia
W. M. Ramsay
1904

Chapter 10: The Province of Asia and the Imperial Religion


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 09-26-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Sep 25 2007, 02:15 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Sep 25 2007, 02:15 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hinduism and Buddhism in Greek Philosophy

Article written in 1954!
[right][snapback]73511[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->            Orphism and Hinduism have much in common. Just as
        the  Brahmins  kept  the  belief  of the  shamans  or
        medicine  men of the Vedas  that man could  become  a
        god, but  <b>attempted  to achieve  this  union  not  by
        drinking the intoxi-
        cating soma but by abstinence  and ascetic  practices
        so Orpheus purified  the old Dionysiac  religion  and
        substituted  asceticism  for drunkenness.</b>(32) The aim
        of Orphism seems to be the liberation of the soul from
        the chains of the body, and this is to be achieved by
        asceticism  but  man must  pass  through  many  lives
        before he achieves  final freedom.  This is very far,
        indeed,  from  genuine  Greek  religion  of  any
        period,(33) but almost exactly  the predominant  view
        of the Upani.sads. Even the metaphors  in which  this
        conception  is  clothed  are  the  stock  Hindu  and
        Buddhist metaphors-the wheel of life in the Upani.sads
        appears  as  the  "sorrowful  weary  wheel"  of
        Orpheus.(34) <b>It has been  remarked  that  the aim  of
        Orphism, the realization by man of his identity  with
        God,would have appeared  blasphemous  insolence  to a
        sixth-century Athenian.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 09-26-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->[97]<b> Note the popularity of Apollonius. Apparently, it was so great that Eusebius felt compelled to write a treatise specifically against him. </b>Robin Lane Fox points to an Orace at Oenoanda, where a man asks Apollo if he could come near to the Gods through self examination and gets the reply that this privilege belongs only to "Egyptian Hermes, "Moses of the Hebrews: and "the wise man of the Mazacenes." The last epithet is a reference to Apollonius. Thus we find that at least one priest though Apollonius to be the equivalent of Moses and Hermes Trismegistus. Fox, Robin Lane, Pagans and Christians, Alfred Knopf, New York, 1986, pg. 191.

link
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Apollonius is Eastern Influence (RM).


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 09-26-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->mountainman
May 7, 2006, 10:32 PM
Atwill specifically promotes a fabricated Jesus.

This serves to make distinct the separateness of claims
in the theory space reserved to FJ theories. Such theories
specifically promote a fiction or a fabrication of the Galilaeans
to which literature an historical author is sought.

FJ may be new to the world as far as most people are concerned
but it is for any reasonable person to judge that the antiquity of
the FJ class of theories (of history) takes precedent with the
author ... emperor Julian c.362 CE.

In fact, it is my thesis that there is an earlier priority date.
I am confident that there will come a time in the history of
this planet when the words of Arius will commonly be
associated with the words of someone who subscribes to
a FJ theory, but who out of self-preservation sought out
clever disputations of the Constantinian inititiative, by which
he could call the fabrication of the Galilaeans
a fiction of men composed by wickedness and yet live.

As if the FJ theory was ever ever new or strange!!!
"What pride! What conceit" exclaims Basil. !!!!!

Best wishes one and all,


Pete Brown
NAMASTE

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Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 09-26-2007

Julian even tries to rebulid the Jewish temple destroyed by Titus.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The denouncement by the Emperor Julian of the christian religion has not before been viewed from the perspective of the Eusebian fiction postulate. Traditonally Julian is viewed as a simple "apostate", or turner-away-from the christian tradition. However <b>this article explores the possibility that Julian was convinced that the entire religion was a fabrication and fiction of wicked men, in a very real ancient historical sense.</b>
link
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Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 09-27-2007

So the Destroyer of Jerusalem Titus was the doting companion of Paul, Jesus, and Jesus Son of the father!!!

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Apostle_Titus 

In the Christian New Testament, Titus, (a common Roman name, meaning honourable) was a companion of Paul of Tarsus, mentioned in several of Paul's epistles, including the Epistle to Titus. Titus was with Paul and Barnabas at Antioch and accompanied them to the Council of Jerusalem (Galatians 2:1-3; Acts 15:2), although his name nowhere occurs in the Acts of the Apostles.

He appears to have been a Gentile – for Paul sternly refused to have him circumcised, perhaps because Paul believed Christ's gospel freed believers from the requirements of the Mosaic Law – and to have been chiefly engaged in ministering to Gentiles. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 09-27-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/5685/cross.html
http://pirate.shu.edu/~cottereu/arch-chr.htm
more links
<b>
The Cross in Roman Burial places    </b> 

<img src='http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/5685/salina.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Relief Decoration of a Cross at Salina

A number of late Roman and Byzantine tombs on the Maltese Islands show definite evidence for the practice of Christian rituals during burials. This evidence often takes the form of relief decorations consisiting of the Greek Cross Monogram (as in The Salina 5 hypogeum shown above) or the chi rho symbol. One of the latter examples, accompinied by the letter alpha and omega inscribed in its upper half , adorns the roof of a Baldacchino tomb at Abbatija tad-Dejr in Rabat (see picture below). The name of Jesus Christ is surprisingly very rare, being found only at a unique inscription found at the Gzira ta' San Tumas Hypogeum.

<img src='http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/5685/abbatija.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Abbatija tad-Dejr

Despite this explicit evidence for Christianity and the reference for St. Paul's Shipwreck at Malta in the Acts of the Apostles, <b>no archaeological evidence for the presence of christian communities on the islands predating the second century has ever been found.</b>

As a matter of fact the evidence available points otherwise. An altar associated with Phoenician ritual at Tas-Silg could have been in use until the first century AD while <b>the 'Gozitans' still practiced imperial worship until the second century AD.</b>

The evidence for the conversion of the Maltese through the work of St. Paul, if it exists, has still to be found. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 09-27-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><b> A Cassius Longinus gave Caesar the deadly stab with a dagger, while Jesus was stabbed with a lance on the cross—but also by a Longinus! </b></span>(This Longinus became a saint, and his feast day is on March 15—the same date as the ides of March, on which Caesar was murdered by the homonymous Longinus).

http://www.carotta.de/subseite/texte/jwc_e/introit.html
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Historicity Of Jesus - Guest - 09-27-2007

that is wealth of information. thanks dhu.


Historicity Of Jesus - ramana - 09-27-2007

Dhu, Are we ready to stitch together a narrative for lay people using the info in this thread? The mere collection of data wont suffice.


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 09-28-2007

OK, I will put something together. This is the right time for us.

As has been said before, Christianity has pretensions towards organicity as if it adds to universal cultural diversity, when the exact opposite is true. This is the exact lie which needs to exposed if Christianity is to be countered. Christianity is artificial because it replicates the neurosis of its origin as a hoax and dark, comedic satire of the agony-filled jewish experience.

Atwill has garnered the data points. But I believe that the real significance of the data points can only be explicated by people like us: Hitchens, Acharya S., and Robert Price -type western liberal atheists (who are the main JC antagonists today) are heavily invested in continuing an organic narrative for western civilization, one that was unjustly robbed by the semetics; thus their avaricious support for the MJ thesis and even for liberal witzelian type adventures. Atwill offers a way out with his FJ emphasis. Why did FJ develop in that society? There must already have been some such necessitations in W society. this is where Prof. Balagangadhara comes in with his theory of normative versus non-normative ethics. I may be presumptuous to be bandying abt balagangadhara's theory so. certain inconsequential modifications are required. Atwill's unsatisfactory answer is to simply subsume FJ along with the entire gamut of Roman dramatic satire.

At first I thought that Atwill was being uncharitable by insisting upon the Conspiracy and intertextual element rather than a more organic and contextual development (the word conspiracy is even found in the title of CM). But the data points all indeed reinforce his conspiratorial interpretation of the manufacture of a buffoonish Messiah, the exact opposite of the Kalki type Messiah predicted by Jewish tradition. Even Elst makes the interpretation that the passion narrative (eg Christ's entry on a donkey) is absurd.

Titus' mistress is the part jewish Herodian Bernice who is derided for being an oriental harlot unworthy of the caesar. We have here the Whore of Babylon trope found in Revelation as well as the prototype for the usual western fetishization of Asia. We will need to bring in Said and his orientalism thesis.

Also we will need a thorough understanding Jewsih/Cannanite and Phoenican Paganism which was indeed flourishing well into the 2nd century AD.

The thesis even explains pro-western orientation of Lebanese christians.


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 10-07-2007

<b>New 15 min audio summary by Atwill: </b>

http://www.freethoughtmedia.com/index.php?...get_file&id=303

Quite a feast for the ears. In case you're tired of cannibalizing the Jewish Messiah.


Video posted before :
Joseph Atwill Video - "Unkil Titus" Flavian
(see min 41:58 for the "Unkil Titus" ref.)






Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 10-07-2007

Advance warning to Jeebuswalas: Satan has been let loose. The True Master will soon return.

Faith-Healing Miracles of Jesus, er, Vespasian? (Pt. 1)

The Faith-Healing Miracles of Jesus, er, Vespasian? (Pt. 2)


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 10-07-2007

We even have resolution of why Christianity (which came first) is more subtle in propaganda methods than the more palpable Islam (there is actual devolution in propaganda methods within a span of 600+ years) It reflects the difference between fabrication and plagiarism. Even the Christian Literature is more delicate; there is even a Sermon on the Mount interspersed. Jewish Arab conflict was of course never there until Roman first adventure in Judea. Jews and Arabs are kin yet the Arabs are the last to transform!!!

__________________________________________________________________







False Flag Operations (Pt. 1)

False Flag Operations (Pt. 2)

False Flag Operations (Pt. 3)

___________________________________________________
Jewish exclusivity is both a result of 1. paranoia d/t false-flag/martial race/even AIT-type operations against them and 2. persistence of a traditional heathen-type matrix, not yet transformed into the univeraslity of Islam and Christianity. see first few minutes of The False Bridge of Messianic Judaism (Pt. 3) avail at personal page http://www.youtube.com/user/uziyahuidf