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Historicity Of Jesus - Printable Version
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Historicity Of Jesus - Printable Version

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Historicity Of Jesus - Shambhu - 10-08-2007

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Watching the Atwill interview, watched the "miracles" pieces. Excellent stuff!

Added later: The interviewer is kind of defending Xtian lies here....and is trying to defend Jeebus (when Joe A says JC is antisemitic, the interviewer tries to say the moneychangers were responsible for making JC antisemitic)..


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 10-08-2007

There are more interviews available, but they are on pay sites: two are with radio personality "infidelguy"; one of these was a sparring match with the NT scholar Robert Price in which Atwill lost his composure after hitting a wall of obstinance.

The Unkil Titus interviewer is much kinder than the NT atheistic "scholars" (eg Price) - who amazingly seem to have fits when corresponding with Atwill. We need to find out why there is such a visceral reaction against Atwill by persons we would presume to be on the anti-christian side. I think it has do with how the credibility of the "West" itself is affected. Atwill essentially extends the 'Islam equals Arabism' equation to Christianity and the "West". Marxism/Liberalism was the first drive to break (ie hide) the connection between christianity and the west - secularization of the sacred space in Balagangadhara's terms.

It is also quite possible that "false-flag-type operations" (ie staged fights) are the standard modus operandi in the western psyche. We have seen this with the Fake Shankaracharya episodes, with Nepal and Sri Lanka, and with the use of Buddhism as a stopover in conversions (Myanmar may be another case). The ready-made accusation whenever a Heathen points something amiss is that the heathen is a "conspiracy theorist"- of course, there can be no connection, it is d/t economics/people's uprising/caste system, etc. Secularization/Liberalsim/Marxism are the gatekeeprs to the essential cleavage between Religion and the "West". (MArxism attempts to confuse with a false preoccupation with the "state" (instead of the "West)... It's a "good cop, bad cop" routine on civilizational scale.


Historicity Of Jesus - Shambhu - 10-08-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Oct 8 2007, 12:26 PM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Oct 8 2007, 12:26 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Atwill essentially extends the 'Islam equals Arabism' equation to Christianity and the "West".

It is also quite possible that "false-flag-type operations" (ie staged fights) are the standard modus operandi in the western psyche.  We have seen this with the Fake Shankaracharya episodes, [right][snapback]74026[/snapback][/right]
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Yes, Xtianity = Caesar-worship cult, like muslim apostate Anwar Sheikh's Islam = Arab worship cult

And yes, false flag is very much alive. These b@stards will not stop at anything. Thinking of religion in terms of right and wrong is a totally alien concept to them. "If my (made-up) messiah said it, it is my definition of morality. So me, being muslim, will destroy any non-muslim culture and marry 6 yr olds like Mohamed did"


Historicity Of Jesus - ramana - 10-08-2007

I read a lot of Western Art History books. What strikes me is there is a silent understanding that Art will not be used to attack Xtianity.

The books always jump from Classical-Greek and Roman to the Renaissance and mention the Eastern orthodox church icons. After that its the gradual progression from Renaissance all the way to post modernism. Except for rebel and marginal folks xtianity is not attacked.


Historicity Of Jesus - Guest - 10-09-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Oct 8 2007, 12:26 PM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Oct 8 2007, 12:26 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Unkil Titus interviewer is much kinder than the<b> NT atheistic "scholars" (eg Price) - who amazingly seem to have fits when corresponding with Atwill</b>.  We need to find out <b>why there is such a visceral reaction</b> against Atwill by persons we would presume to be on the anti-christian side.  I think it has do with how the credibility of the "West" itself is affected.[right][snapback]74026[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->I was really wondering about that earlier post showing how Richard Carrier was so opposed to Atwill. Carrier is a regular at infidels.org, so your question is very valid.
Why would <i>exactly those atheist Americans who regularly write to expose christian mythology</i> be opposed to Atwill's very sound thesis?

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Unkil Titus interviewer is much kinder<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->By the end, I didn't mind the interviewer too much any more. He had started using "mythical jezus". The interviewer was sidetracking a lot (not for any malevolent reasons from what I could tell), but Atwill always managed to eventually finish the points that got interrupted.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->It is also quite possible that "false-flag-type operations" (ie staged fights) are the standard modus operandi in the western psyche.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Certainly Chinese communists regularly dress up like Tibetan monks and then vandalise, giving Tibetan Buddhism a bad name. Presumably to get the Tibetan populace to become anti-Buddhist (or only anti-Lama-Buddhist) and anti-Dalai Lama.
Next to that, there's the christians doing the same in Sri Lanka:
http://www.christianaggression.org/item_di...S&id=1113838580
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->the disharmony began when they paid men to don the yellow robe and misbehave in society to create a rift between the Buddhist temples and the Buddhists by getting these ?fake Buddhist monks? to go and purchase liquor from the liquor bars, to go into meat stalls and super markets and purchase meat and fish for everyone to see, to go into restaurants after 12 noon and order food and partake of it, to be seen by others etc; the disharmony began when they use young couples to go into village temples in the night requesting shelter from the temple monk (on the excuse that they were travelling far) and in a short while the male would leave the female alone in the temple, and go out- within minutes, the girl would ring the temple bell and inform the villagers that the monk had tried to molest her( the purpose is to bring disrepute to innocent monks);<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->So yeah, it's a very christian thing. Or christoislamicommuninst thing - confirmed in the Indian situation too:
http://www.ivarta.com/cause/IC11_SCharya.htm
The guy pretending to be the Puri Shankaracharya:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->was used by Muslim and Christian organizations (Pioneer/HVK 10-06-02)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 10-10-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-Shambhu+Oct 8 2007, 09:04 AM-->QUOTE(Shambhu @ Oct 8 2007, 09:04 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Added later: The interviewer is kind of defending Xtian lies here....and is trying to defend Jeebus (when Joe A says JC is antisemitic, the interviewer tries to say the moneychangers were responsible for making JC antisemitic)..
[right][snapback]74021[/snapback][/right]
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He is just repeating the line that he he has been fed. This line about moneychangers is indeed found in the NT and is simply Roman propaganda against Jews. The Buffoonish Caricature of the Jewish Massiah, aka Jeebus (Titus as his own messenger), kicks out the greedy, usurious Jews from their own Temple, which the Jews have been defiling with their presence and which has been dubbed as the Temple of the Father (Vespasian).

Actually, it was the Roman standards and the statue of Caligula which defiled the Jewish temple and which were thrown out by the Jews, prompting the Roman reprisals. The moneychanger episode is simply a satire/inversion on this episode and a declaration of infallibilty by the Romans. The entire western Marxist framework has its prototype in this incident.

Imagine Mata Sonia statue being installed in Vaishno Devi. After our protestations, secularists start singing line of Atithi Devo Bhavaa and Matra devo bhava from our scriptures. the two-bit secularists genuinely believe the line but the elite secularists know the mischievious "intent".

It is like the anti-hindu Sarah Caldwell sounding line to RM about how she is criticizing her own adopted tradition of Hinduism. Conversely, Hindus never scour the scriptures of others looking for verification of their "Truth". Romans were known for exposing themselves in the Temple as well.


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 10-10-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Oct 8 2007, 09:05 PM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Oct 8 2007, 09:05 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I read a lot of Western Art History books. What strikes me is there is a silent understanding that Art will not be used to attack Xtianity.

The books always jump from Classical-Greek and Roman to the Renaissance and mention the Eastern orthodox church icons. After that its the gradual progression from Renaissance all the way to post modernism. Except for rebel and marginal folks xtianity is not attacked.
[right][snapback]74039[/snapback][/right]
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They also always have a chapter about Egyptian and Near East prelude to the "European Miracle". What is always missing is the Persian Prelude.


Historicity Of Jesus - ramana - 10-10-2007

They are still scared of the Persians. It was the Persian scare that drove the Greeks to rally together over centuries.

The Persian prelude is part of Judaic revivial and thus seondarily xtian rise. So ignored.


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 10-10-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Oct 10 2007, 03:34 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Oct 10 2007, 03:34 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->They are still scared of the Persians. It was the Persian scare that drove the Greeks to rally together over centuries.

The Persian prelude is part of Judaic revivial and thus seondarily xtian rise. So ignored.
[right][snapback]74135[/snapback][/right]
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Can we take the timeline back to Mittanis and Hittites, Indic entrants from the East, and to their founding connections with the Egyptian dynasty (per Kak). The jewish narrative is inextricably tied up with the Egyptian one, Moshe being Tuth-Mose.


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 10-10-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Oct 9 2007, 06:47 PM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Oct 9 2007, 06:47 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->By the end, I didn't mind the interviewer too much any more. He had started using "mythical jezus". The interviewer was sidetracking a lot (not for any malevolent reasons from what I could tell), but Atwill always managed to eventually finish the points that got interrupted.[right][snapback]74092[/snapback][/right]
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He is a smart fellow. at minute 38:00, he is following up with "Is that a false flag operation on the part of a military power". immediately after this, he has a sudden realization and exclaims that the gospels are "satirical". He had not read the book beforehand and barely knew anything about the thesis. We can conclude that it takes at least 40 minutes to understand the thesis. It will be a hard sell to the general western public.


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 10-10-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Gil-White:
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/crux06.pdf

The story I have defended here is that <b>Judaism was selfconsciously sponsored by the Persian monarchy in order to do battle, specifically, with Western fascism,</b> after the Western fascists, the Greeks, who were quickly corrupting the western satraps, penetrated all the way to Babylon, destroying Jerusalem on the way. Whether or not this interpretation is correct, what is without controversy is that the Jewish movement soon came into mortal conflict with the Greeks, and after that with the Greeks and the Romans.

Up next, the story of how that happened.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Historicity Of Jesus - ramana - 10-10-2007

Dhu, So it needs atleast half an hour of engagement before the case is understood. Can you put together a ppt file ~ 10-20 slides that makes the case?
I am pushing you because you understand the issues and know the need for such a presentation. Three to four points per slide to let the message sink in. Give refs at the bottom of the slide. Do two slides a day. Complete in 1 to 2 weeks! Have it Forum reviewed and then put up for downloads.


Historicity Of Jesus - acharya - 10-10-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Oct 9 2007, 08:22 PM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Oct 9 2007, 08:22 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Gil-White:
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/crux06.pdf

The story I have defended here is that <b>Judaism was selfconsciously sponsored by the Persian monarchy in order to do battle, specifically, with Western fascism,</b> after the Western fascists, the Greeks, who were quickly corrupting the western satraps, penetrated all the way to Babylon, destroying Jerusalem on the way. Whether or not this interpretation is correct, what is without controversy is that the Jewish movement soon came into mortal conflict with the Greeks, and after that with the Greeks and the Romans.

Up next, the story of how that happened.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[right][snapback]74163[/snapback][/right]
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This is interesting and is profound.

We see that Judaism is a socially engineered group which managed to gain strong support in taking on the Romans.



Historicity Of Jesus - ramana - 10-11-2007

So before the Persian interlude there was no Judaism as a movement only a faith?


Historicity Of Jesus - G.Subramaniam - 10-11-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Oct 11 2007, 09:27 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Oct 11 2007, 09:27 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->So before the Persian interlude there was no Judaism as a movement only a faith?
[right][snapback]74201[/snapback][/right]
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Archeological evidence has proven that there is no Abraham and no Moses
Until the Assyrian invasion of 700 BC, there is no documented evidence of a monotheistic jehovah

Previous to 700bc, Jehovah was simply a tribal god with a Mrs.Jehovah
and other gods

Much of the old testament was written around 700 bc
Next when the jews went into captivity in babylon, the bible was refined
The jews returned from babylon around 500 bc, thanks to the persians and at this time a lot of zorastrian elements were added to the bible
Judaism was formed between 700bc to 500bc


Historicity Of Jesus - ramana - 10-11-2007

GS, Can you put these on a ppt chart with refs to make the case. Thanks, ramana


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 10-12-2007

Judaism acquired the "one and only one god" theology in the hellenistic era. Before that they were what Max Mueller would call 'henotheistic'. Messianic Judaism is an even later post-hellenic Roman development; It was rooted out by the Romans and replaced by Rabbinic Judaism which is a Concurrent development to the Roman synthesis of Christianity.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://medusacoils.blogspot.com/2007/04/re...ut-asherah.html

About the Hebrew scriptures themselves, Dever says:
– "All biblical texts in their present written form were produced relatively late in Israel’s history," that is, no earlier than the 8th Century BCE.
– The writers of the Bible were highly selective in the material they allowed in, and were "mostly elites, literati" and male, making up less than 1 percent of the population.
– "<b>...all the biblical literature...constitutes what is essentially ‘propaganda....the Bible is ‘revisionist history’ on a grand scale."</b>
(4) The Bible doesn’t portray the Israelite religion as it really was, but rather as what the authors wanted it to be, and suppressed and condemned "folk religion"–that is the religion of at least 99% of the people.
(pp. 69-73, 251)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->link

These scholars have various theories concerning the origins of the Israelites and Israelite religion. Most agree that the people who formed the nation of Israel during the First Temple era had origins in Mesopotamia and in Egypt, although some question whether any or all of their ancestors had been slaves in Egypt. Many suggest that during the First Temple period, the people of Israel were henotheists, that is, they believed that each nation had its own god, but that their god was superior to other gods.[6][7] Some suggest that strict monotheism developed during the Babylonian Exile, perhaps in reaction to Zoroastrian dualism.[8]

<b>In this view, it was only by the Hellenic period that most Jews came to believe that their God was the only God (and thus, the God of everyone), and that the record of His revelation (the Torah) contained within it universal truths.</b> This attitude reflected a growing Gentile interest in Judaism (some Greeks and Romans considered the Jews a most "philosophical" people because of their belief in a God that cannot be represented visually), and growing Jewish interest in Greek philosophy, which sought to establish universal truths, thus leading - potentially - to the idea of monotheism, at least in the sense that "all gods are One." It was also at this time that the notion of a clearly bounded Jewish nation identical with the Jewish religion formed.[9] According to one scholar, the clash between the early Christians and Pharisees that ultimately led to the birth of the Christian religion and Rabbinic Judaism reflected the struggle by Jews to reconcile their claims to national particularism and theological universalism.[10]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 10-12-2007

Another piece which does not fit is the insistence upon the "arrival of the Sea Peoples" ie Phoenicians. even though Culturally they are not apart for the usual Canaanite culture of the area. Next comes the plea that we do not know anything about the literature of these great people who vanished into thin air. We can label this Phoenician paradox. Phoenicians had founded Carthage.


Historicity Of Jesus - dhu - 10-12-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->wiki link  Maryannu is an ancient word for the caste of chariot-mounted nobility which dominated many of the societies of the Middle East during the Bronze Age. The word is believed to derive from Indo-Iranian origins ( mari- "warrior", originally "mortal, human")

Indo-European maryannu classes are believed to have ruled over the Hurrian kingdom of Mitanni and over the kingdom of the Hittites. Many Canaanite rulers had Indo-European or Hurrian names and may have derived from immigrant maryannu groups. Similar groups dominated the various city-states of Mycenaean Greece.

The term is attested in the Amarna letters written by Haapi.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Historicity Of Jesus - ramana - 10-13-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Oct 12 2007, 05:02 PM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Oct 12 2007, 05:02 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Another piece which does not fit is the insistence upon the "arrival of the Sea Peoples" ie Phoenicians. even though Culturally they are not apart for the usual Canaanite culture of the area.  Next comes the plea that we do not know anything about the literature of these great people who vanished into thin air.  We can label this Phoenician paradox.  Phoenicians had founded Carthage.
[right][snapback]74238[/snapback][/right]
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Dhu, Look up H.G. Wells "Outline History of the World".

Page 294

He writes that wherever the Phoenicians were last seen we see Jewish settlements.