Vegetarian Discussion - Printable Version

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Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 12-04-2012

Not related to vegetarianism.


varAha rescues meSha[/color]


No surprise, I suppose. Remember Da Varaaha: apparently knowledgeable sources like the Harivamsha provide details about that Yagnyaangah, whose every part - and even movement/speed - is nothing less than a live/embodied aspect of the vedic yagnya.

Clearly such greatness is invariably reflected in this mini - but still bright - emanation of that Penultimate version of this form.

No wonder Hindoos like varaahas. And I always thought it was because they were so impossibly cute and good-natured and very friendly. Turns out they are more super than I knew...

Anyway, now I know who to call if I ever get myself into a pickle.

Vegetarian Discussion - aditigir - 04-29-2013

I am really impressed with your thread.

Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 02-08-2014

[color="#0000FF"]As will become obvious very quickly, the only things remotely relevant to the thread are the sections in quoteblocks. (The bit on the Fox-spirits is actually part of native heathen JP and KR tradition, and I think CN tradition too.)[/color]


The Tails of the Missing Vaahanam

Hereby is narrated a certain important feature of the Emperor Julian's life that is prominent in all parallel universes but this one (this one being a great aberration) in which he was ever victorious. It has often been noted that His Highness The Earthly Male Superlative was Self-Complete and lacking in nothing. While this is true, the other observation that is equally true is that all major Heroes and most Divinities are seen accompanied by what is called in Hindoo terminology as a "vaahanam", a sacred animal that is always represented with the hero or Divinity. This is true not only of many historical heathen heroes but also of those fictional heathen heroes that strike at the heart of truth. An example for both cases that easily come to mind include the Varaaha of Taro and the Red Elk of Ashitaka.

While some have commented that something seemed "missing" about the Emperor's person by which they subconsciously allude to the absence of a vaahanam, in truth, his Exalted Imperial Perfection did possess one such animal also. Most in our world would tend to conclude that it must have been a Horse, this being a great sacred animal and one much popular for it. However, every soldier in the Roman cavalry and the Trojan one before it had one heroic steed such as this, and therefore a Horse could not distinguish the Earthly Male Superlative from all the other men. The details of the particular Animal, its species, its origins, its features, its names, its heroism, its peculiarities, its life and its passing are herewith documented, pieced together from various ancient Roman and Greek accounts and hearsay.

That Great Goddess of the Greeks and Romans alike, Unequalled in battle and who did subdue Ares himself during the war at Troy, once did give divine thought to what sort of animal would best suit the Imperial Champion, and which could accompany him loyally, serve him in good stead and for the particular purpose she had in mind for it, and be generally memorable to the adoring heathen masses. Deciding upon its species in unison with the counsel of Kronion and the other Deathless Ones, she sped off from Sacred Olympos to the Land of The Rising Sun which belonged to the exalted Nipponese Sun Goddess Amaterasu and other Sacred Kami. There, a Japanese variant like that of a husky of somewhat orange hue did live in ancient times, as it does yet linger though in sadly reduced numbers today. Its Japanese name was then unknown to the ancient Roman chroniclers, though the Olympic Goddess did privately come to know it from the Kami themselves, who introduced her to the animal. But modern heathen Classicists know to supply its name now, being more familiar today with the Karafuto-Ken (known in the west by the name Sakhalin Husky), [1] which is the ancestor of the brave ancient Akita dog breed that famously inspired the courage and perseverance of Samurai. [2]

The Graeco-Roman Goddess, having landed in the sacred land inhabited and hallowed by the Kami, sought immediate counsel in her friendly undertaking with those Deathless Ones who reside ever there. As a token of their lasting and ancient friendship, the Kami of the Heavens and the Earth brought forth a divine animal for Athena to gaze upon. She clapped and cheered upon seeing the sacred Shinto hound, and after befriending it, she put the whelp in an intricate bag she had wrought for the purpose and took it back speedily to the sacred lands that were home to the Olympic Gods and the Greeks and Romans. There she devised to introduce it in timely fashion into the life of the Great Earthly One Favoured By Olympus. Thus, akin to the Celestial Hound of Erlang Shen of the Daoists, the emperor Julian would acquire a Hound of his own. Although the Goddess acquainted the animal with the fact that its purpose in being brought here was to serve as a faithful comrade to a Kingly Man, she withheld the identity of the Human so as to allow the animal to make up its own mind in its own time.

It was some years after Julian's return to his ancestral religion, but before his rise in the Imperial ranks to Caesar, that the Goddess orchestrated a meeting between the dog and the young prince. There are several tales that purport to document where exactly the encounter took place. [3] What is consistent between the accounts is that, surprising him, it barked at him valiantly, and, perceiving both its bravery and good-natured friendliness, he took to it. Over time, he coaxed it into following him, after demonstrating to it that he was a friend to animals. The animal -- possessed of prodigious powers to discriminate between the worthless and worthy, which many humans have yet to acquire -- decided that the young prince was far more than worthwhile, having concluded that the human was complete in himself and therefore worthy of its own company, and followed him willingly. In time, as with all those in possession of a dog, the man came to more deeply admire his animal's attractive furry appearance and heroic and amiable canine qualities, and spent numerous pleasant hours in its company staring up at Helios and sacred night skies together: it would howl at the moon, at times joined by a wolvish chorus in the distance, while he contemplated his empire and love for his Gods.

While he took joy in its company, in its turn, it followed him everywhere. Fiercely loyal and of a bravery matching that of the bravest Shinto warriors before and since, it accompanied him into armed confrontations at all times. First into battle and last in the retreat, of a speed like unto that of the Divine Wind (said to have been a blessing of the Wind Kami), with a bark that reverberated throughout the Four Worlds -- these being Kronion's seat at Olympos, Poseidon's domain the Sea, Erebus where Father Dis doth reign and the Earth ruled in common by the Three Exalted Divine Brothers. Some say the impressive and widely-heard acoustics of the bark that made the world tremble was partly owing to the Glorious Athena favouring it by striking Her Spear hard against her Shield every time it was prone to emit the Canine Thunder. Others explain that it already possessed this quality from its own Shinto origins: that its beloved Kami, especially the Thunder, had blessed it with the ability to summon their voices in conjunction with its own. Others say both reasonings are of equal truth, and did combine together to make the sound all the more magnificent. Whatever be the case, the barking during battle, and the howling upon its forcibly dismounting an enemy, would send fear into the heart of foes -- who would reel mindless and supine to the auditory assault -- while speeding courage into the hearts of friends who would jump up, invigorated, to re-double their assault on the witless.

In sacred imagery of the Emperor as Warrior, his Dog would be seen alongside him donned in Divine Armour also. It was none other than the skilled God Hephaestos, labouring alongside Kami Smithies, that had factually fashioned the Samurai-like armour bearing Hellenistic motifs for the earthly canine to wear into battle. Athena had guaranteed to a very young Karafuto-Ken that it would be suitably-attired for battle if it would but serve its future master faithfully, and she had proceeded to introduce the creature to Hephaestos. Thereupon, the God had taken its measurements and created the fearsome dazzling armour, just as in days of yore He had created divine armour for the Peleides, King of the Myrmidons, as well. The details of the remarkable armour have been so accurately described, they are visible in the sculptures of the Great Heathen Hero and his Heathen Shinto Animal Friend that have profusely littered the Hellenistic world after the 4th century.

The deed Julian's animal companion is best remembered for occurred during the Persian Campaign of the Emperor, when it leapt into the air and caught the spear that would have speared the Spearman. The world over, those heathens with divine vision nodded to themselves that this was a game-changing event in the annals of their universe, whereas to the stunned Roman soldiery gathered it was an act of great skill and heroism: the Emperor would have been attacked treacherously from behind, by the latest christian plot, and things could well have ended in ways too (permanently) terrifying for them to have imagined. But the creature is said to have sensed the impending villainy as if by its mystical animal senses -- though some say Athena had brought it all the way to the Empire from Japan for this very purpose and had instructed the animal to keep watch for this very moment -- and after catching and snapping the deadly missile, it leapt on the christian Arabian assailant, dislodged him from his horse and brutally cracked his skull or snapped his neck (both accounts are given). The Roman soldiers, dumbfounded both by the speed and the vehemence with which the creature launched itself on the enemy, found their voices again and hailed its greatness, its protection of their beloved King and its contribution to their victory. The King himself, turning instantly around, felt shock at the nearness of possible death and gratitude to his furry companion, but mingled with a sense of horror: the creature's attack on the human assailant was violent and almost vengeful. It had grabbed and shaken the head of the man it overcame vigorously -- the head had been crushed in its Jaws Of Death -- and it thereafter bayed and then howled to the sky, as if marking that it had fulfilled its stated duty. (Some eyewitnesses record that an eagle passed on the auspicious side at this time.) The wolvish creature's fangs dripped blood and its facial and neck fur were covered in the same and the whole aspect of the creature seemed no longer orange or even brown, but dark like that of a raging storm with angry red eyes, as it turned for one last look around. It had then looked veritably like it was in that state which the far-off Hindoos call Raudrakaalam. The Emperor was fearful the creature may have gone fey and wild, having fallen prey to some sudden disease -- perhaps even rabies -- not having ever known it in this mood before, and his later descriptions explained that he had wondered then whether and how this was indeed the same Dog he knew, the one that would not stop absurdly wagging its tail at him in friendly familiarity. However, the creature seemed to regain its composure almost instantly after howling its completion of its bloody mission, and the dark sea of its fur regained a recognisable brown shade as it returned to the Emperor's side and fought on normally. [4] Julian himself did wash the blood from its fangs afterward -- though its divine armour had by that time gained a permanent red mark to commemorate its discharging its purpose -- and coaxed the creature back into good temper, at which point it seemed to be again the playful pup he had known. These events have been recorded by numerous biographers and close friends of the Emperor: Libanios devotes an entire chapter on the Hound's Triumph, and several composers included the event in their war ballads. Christians, of course, cursed the heaven-blessed creature for a while, but they came to nothing in the end as the Emperor's renewed efforts thereafter permanently routed their diseased religion until this and all its fatal potentialities wafted away from the world like the memory of an ill wind.

Although the creature was very faithful to its Human and his men, it had its idiosyncracies: it would not hunt. [5] This peculiarity has been mentioned by various biographers who were told the matter by the Emperor himself, as owing to how, in the animal's country of birth, the pup had befriended various animal creatures and learnt their speech. As a result, it would adamantly refuse to join any of the imperial troops in La Chasse and would stay behind, though it did not judge them upon their return. It allowed that the Emperor must needs catch the Sacred Apis Bull, though rare, to offer to Jupiter to ensure the prosperity of the Hellenistic Empire and its protection from the alarming Cretin infestation that had then still been proceeding apace. The canine's own dietary preferences included steamed cabbage and carrots and raw fruits which the Emperor had his men specially prepare for its delectation. However, the Emperor himself undertook its periodic baths, as would happen when no stream was nearby for the creature to run or paddle in and briefly submerge itself under. On the occasions of a bath, the playful creature would wrestle with the King and always made the event into a sort of game with as end goal trying to get the Emperor rained under by its energetically shaking off the water from its glorious coat, even sneaking up on Julian at the end of the bath time if it had not tasted success before. In time, the Emperor saw through the game and gave up trying to remain dry.

A remarkable trait of this Hound that seems to have passed into legend, from where its effects may perhaps have become magnified over time, is that to children, friend and the heathenising the creature appeared of easy approach: cuddly, cute and -frankly- irresistible; a beautiful vision that appeared in their dreams thereafter (as it had initially done to Prince Julian, at that early time when it had yet to make itself a permanent member of his close circle), especially whenever they were assailed by fears and despondency. After its appearance during their minds in slumber, they woke up refreshed with a sense of being protected by The Earthly Male Superlative and His Hound, even as their worries dissipated as fog in the bright Sun. Children were inspired to draw the attractive furry animal and invent further adventures concerning it, while parents did feed others of its species in fond remembrance of how these were related to the Emperor's Companion.

To the soldiers of the Emperor, it appeared as their comrade, one of their own, a loyal, trustworthy, fleet, four-footed warrior that would join them in their charges and help track down the living trapped underneath the rubble of war to recover them. It served as their mascot and its bark was their rallying call and its howl was their victory cry.

To enemies and the christianising, however, the Hound was their veritable nightmare manifest into tangible and definite form. Its face was fanged and contorted into a vision of fearsomeness for them. This dreaded memory of the Great Enemy of mono-gawdism and his Hound has passed down in space-time, to reappear unreasonably even in this world, in islam's description of the hound and all its kind as "Al-Shaytan", "the Devil". The moslems shudder in irrational fear at its distant all-pervading echo from parallel universes, and seek protection from it by appealing to their non-existent invisible entity. During the day, their fear and hatred for the Divine Shinto Animal manifests in their brutalising dogs. But the Warrior Dog of the Emperor watches all their crimes and will repay them all one day. In christianised countries of our world, the animal went down in myth as the Hound From Hell, and resurfaced in both its imposed christian aspect of villain and its heathen aspect of loyal heroic friend even in such recent works as Tolkien's Lays of Beleriand, where the Hellish Carcharoth, Morgoth's Wolf of Angband, was derived from the christian version of the Canine's lingering influence in our dimension, even as the Dog was the inspiration for Huan, the Hunting Hound of the Elves who was befriended by Luthien; both of these characters of modern myth being based on the same creature.

Whatever it may have meant to others, it was of course, ultimately, the Emperor's Own Hound. Besides serving as one of Julian's most loyal companions, alongside Sallustius and others of the Emperor's valued company, his four-footed friend that emanated from the Land of the Rising Sun was also invaluable to the Roman King of Kings in other respects: the Caesar found it was eminently pettable, and increasingly realised that stroking its head was moreover de-stressing, and he came to like to rest his own head else lean back against the seated animal when pondering difficulties or staring into oblivion. Whenever he could not see a way out of a predicament, he would bury his head in its deep, soft and luxurious fur, which, though he did not know it for a fact, possessed certain magical healing qualities that renewed hope and fortitude. He had come to recognise the divine creature as a gift from the Gods sent to guard him and his heathen empire, which of course it was. He therefore liked to throw his arms around the animal for no reason at all and whisper gentle, heart-felt words of endearment to it -- quite as all humans who have ever possessed animal friends have been prone to do; and the absurd, affectionate animal would lick him in return. When devising new strategems against christianism or writing pamphlets exposing the Great Falsehood, he would take his dear animal's counsel: it would bark approvingly whenever it agreed or was convinced on any point, which turned out to be every single time, and the Emperor graciously accepted that this input was not a fawning compliment to him but mere impartiality to his meritorious ideas. The animal never left His Imperial Male Magnificence's company: at times of worship it would stand by quietly, looking acceptably piously-inclined towards the Olympic Gods, and Julian would allow it to take part in offerings after libation (but soon learned to make sure it did not get too drunk, as liquor made its behaviour with regard to furniture -- already sparse in Julian's imperial household -- worse than that of a Vandal). Though the Emperor worked through many nights -- and it would stay up with him during his contemplations or else howl at the moon during Julian's nightly worship which became background hum to him -- there were times his Supreme Earthly Imperial Perfection would go to sleep. On such occasions he would suffer the Hound to leap onto the bedding and curl up with its head on the great and warm Imperial Heart, there falling asleep to the gentle thud-thudding. This, unfortunately, became a habit for the dog and it could not be weaned from it thereafter and was inclined to repeat the behaviour even on occasions when the Emperor would have preferred not to have the weight of another heavy blanket bearing down on him, such as during summer. The often Double, and at times as many as Nine, Tails of the Hound were found wrapped around the Emperor's arm in the mornings. Whether he had done so himself or whether the Hound had done this for/to him, is something the Emperor has not remarked on to his confidantes.

There has been conjecture that certain other of the Hound's magical abilities that have come down to us in legend are owing to its special ancestry, which is perhaps partly Sacred Fox according to Eastern heathen tradition such as Shinto, and which is mayhap somewhat Wolf according to western myth, or perhaps a combination of both. There are accounts of further strange behaviour from the creature on full-moon nights, often attributed in the west to its suspected Lupine ancestry, but which will not be dwelt on here, lest this more serious report of the verifiable and commonly-attributed features of the famous animal become diluted by imaginative tall-tales. [6]

As regards the blessed heathen creature's names and epithets, which are many and often of foreign tongue, numerous derive originally from the terms of endearment lavished upon the creature by the Emperor and his men. The primary word used as a name of address for the animal by the Emperor Himself was "Nakama", especially when he stroked its ears. It is not a Latin or Greek word, and it remains a cause of wonderment to historians as to how the Emperor should be familiar with Japanese when he was not known for it. Nowadays, people are more commonly acquainted with the fact that the exquisite word means "comrade", but the Emperor learning of this word (and apparently its meaning too) has baffled not a few. Some have said that Athena had introduced him to the creature by this name, but that does not explain how he used other Japanese words and taught his men to use the same in reference to his Hound: next to the simple descriptive of Karafuto-Ken was also to be heard "Senyuu" (comrade in arms) and "Tomo" (pal, mate, friend), "Shinseki" (kin, relative), "Shinrui" (family), all of which were imitatively used by the Roman soldiers of the well-loved Emperor in addressing the Dog, especially after it had shown its mettle during battle. The Emperor also referred to the Shinto beast affectionately as "Doushi" (kindred spirit) and "Douhai" (the Emperor's equal as his canine equivalent), and even as his "Chitsuzuki" (blood relation), though "[dear] Nakama" was his most favoured name for his four-legged friend. It is thought that this wealth of knowledge of appropriate Japanese nouns must have emanated from the Hound teaching Julian the equivalent in Japanese human speech for words the Man wished to address his Animal friend by. Although a very learned and skilled man, Julian is not generally known to have understood the speech of dogs, whereas the creature itself was famous for knowing the speech of other animals, which may have included that of men also.

Epithets in the common tongue of the Empire referred to the animal as the Emperor's Dog, the Emperor's Quadruped Comrade, the Canine Thunder (on account of its bark), Julian's Animal Friend, the Imperial Hellenistic Mascot, the Fierce Heathen, Shinto Hound, the Blessed Dog, the Kamis' Gift, Athena's Favoured One and Divine-Armour-Bearing-Fierce-Warrior-Hound. Further studies conducted by historians regarding the animal have come up with many more names that were in use, some of which are surprising. [7]

Upon the Emperor's ascendance to his ancestral Gods at Olympos, it is said that his Dog leapt for a last time onto his chest as he was laid to rest. And curled up once more, as was the animal's wont, it too fell into a final sleep. The mound raised over the Man is said to include his dear friend the Dog, as per these versions of the event. The Roman account has it residing with the once-human hero in the afterlife, and continuing its usual behaviour as on earth, though some other tales describe the animal as resting in its own lands of the heavenly Kami and returning whenever the Emperor has need for it or is glad of its company in general, including such as when heathen humans on this side of life look to the example of the Great Heathen Emperor in their need. At such moments, the Dog returns to His side -- swimming across from Japan at his call, and racing with thunderous footfalls over the Tundra or the Steppes and then the plains -- to thus be seen in vision reunited with Julian, donning once more its Divine Armour and with its loud bark echoing triumphantly.

Others, to the east, tell of the dog barking once, loudly, during the final farewell rite of its divinely-blessed human friend and to have swiftly been caught up in a whirling wind by Aeolus thereafter, who, by request of Athena and owing to her promise to the Kami on termination of the Dog's services, returned it to the land of its ancestors and its own Shinto Gods and religion: they say it passed into the realm of the Kami where, being given a hero's farewell by Shinto priests and enshrined in a native Temple, it dwells happily with them once more. This last version traces future generations of the breed back to one of these early famous examples of the heathen Shinto animal.

In any case, all huskies the world over have come to be regarded as related in some fashion to the Hound of the Imperial Heathen. And in like manner to how Elephants in far-off India are regarded as sacred and therefore become understandably conflated with their Gods Ganapati, the Son of Uma-Shiva, and Airavatam, the sacred mount of Indra, or how the Monkeys of the Hindoos are venerated as lingering members of the divine "Vanara Sena" of their God Rama, or all Hindoo cows are regarded as the true embodiments of the Hindoos' Gods -- in such manner, all Huskies have become synonymous with Julian's Shinto Hound, to the point where they have come to be seen (and see themselves) as identical or interchangeable with the original. In essence, all huskies and Karafuto-Ken in particular, can be viewed as the Emperor's Own Vaahanam. This has predictably become a matter of prodigious pride for various huskies in our own era.

Therefore, those in our universe who felt that the Emperor was missing a certain something were perceptive, though he did not lack a vaahanam in other universes. In all those, of course, he was always accompanied by Man's Best Friend. While Hindoos tend to threaten ominously that this is a Vedic reference to the Wife, the best friend of humanity in general was rather meant: the dog. And so ends the tale of a Man and His Dog -- or rather, the tale of The Hellenistic Emperor and his Shinto Hound -- as it has come down through the ages and tradition.


Quote:The Sakhalin Husky, also known as the Karafuto-Ken (樺太犬?), is a breed of dog used as a sled dog.

This breed was a spitz type, related to other Japanese dogs, and considered to be a precursor to the Akita Inu.


Antarctic expedition

This breed's claim to fame came from the ill-fated 1958 Japanese research expedition to Antarctica, which made an emergency evacuation and was forced to leave behind 15 sled dogs. The researchers believed that a relief team would arrive within a few days, so they left the dogs chained up outside with a small supply of food; however, the weather turned bad and the team never made it to the outpost.

Incredibly, nearly one year later, a new expedition arrived and discovered that two of the dogs, "Taro" and "Jiro", had survived and they became instant heroes.[2] Taro returned to Sapporo, Japan and lived at Hokkaido University until his death in 1970, after which he was stuffed and put on display at the university's museum.[3] Jiro died in Antarctica in 1960 of natural causes and the remains are located at the National Science Museum of Japan in Ueno Park.

The breed spiked in popularity upon the release of the 1983 film, Nankyoku Monogatari, about Taro and Jiro. A second 2006 film, Eight Below, provided a fictional version of the occurrence, but did not reference the breed. Instead, the film features only eight dogs: two Alaskan Malamutes and six Siberian Huskies. In 2011, TBS presents the much waited drama, Nankyoku Tairiku, featuring Kimura Takuya. It tells the story of the 1957 Antarctica Expedition led by Japan and their Sakhalin Huskies.

The breed and the expedition are memorialized in a monument near Wakkanai, Hokkaido,[4] a monument under Tokyo Tower,[5] and a monument near Nagoya Port.[6]

(Note: the documentary/movie Nankyoku Monogatari by Koreyoshi Kurahara on the JP Antarctica expedition about the JP sledge dogs, had music composed by the Greek Vangelis. Album: "Antarctica".)


Quote:Morie Sawataishi: Saviour of Japan's akita Samurai dog

In the Second World War, the akita – the ancient breed whose courage inspired Japan’s noble warriors – faced extinction. Martha Sherrill went in search of the man who dedicated his life to its recovery .


In Japan, akitas are sometimes referred to as ikken isshu – one-person dogs, uninterested in anyone but their owner.


They competed in village dog rings and other more casual gambling venues. Feudal lords collected them as living trophies and for several hundred years, from the 16th to the 19th century, the warrior class, the samurai, were inspired by the dogs’ courage and rugged fighting spirit. For a type of samurai infantryman in training, an akita dog was his teacher.

It never really mattered what the dogs looked like. Their essence or spirit was the quality most sought after. A good akita was quiet and fearless, could approach a cornered bear and prompt it to chase, and was virtually weatherproof.


An akita can be difficult for the inexperienced owner. They are fiercely loyal dogs, but their devotion can seem almost pathological. They can be overly protective of their owners and aggressive to strangers. While they can appear deceptively laid-back and mellow at times – they are often described as catlike – the akita isn’t the kind of dog to be patient with an annoying child or smaller animal.


By 1970 Morie had raised enough akitas to believe that he knew, pretty much, what an akita could do – the limits of the breed’s strength and courage as well as its instincts. Then Samurai Tiger came along and raised the standard. The black-and-white akita was the finest hunter and a national champion in the ring. In 1979 Samurai Tiger died after fighting a bear. 'They say you only get one dog in your lifetime like Samurai Tiger,’ Morie says. 'He inspired me, and rewarded my efforts over the years. He was so natural, and raw, and unspoilt. For me, he was everything I could ask for in a dog. And he had all the traits I hoped to some day see in myself.’

Last autumn, when Shiro died at 15 – an unimaginably old age for an akita – Morie wondered if it wasn’t time for him to go, too. He planned a big funeral for his great white champion. A priest and dozens of mourners came. Morie still had two younger akitas left, but he lacked the energy to show them or take them hunting.

[3] The most familiar and generally reliable account of the fated meeting, describes the pup -- having just been released from Athena's sacred magic pouch into the dazzling light of day -- as coming upon the Flawless Man when the latter had dismounted to drink from a sacred stream. It was then that it barked at him, as if in some recognition that neither the creature nor the human could completely fathom. The Prince was caught unawares by its pleasing furry attractiveness, which apparently left an impression on his mind: gazing at it, an understandably deep love for the dear animal took root. Though his own heart was instantly pierced (and from which he never recovered) by its incomprehensible and unreachable beauty of being -- as all those who ever fell under the spell of love for animals or trees or the sky or mountains would know -- the baby animal itself beheld him without knowing what to make of him initially: it was only some time thereafter that it would learn of the young prince's pristine character.

And although, during this initial acquaintance, the creature gave chase to the imperial horse in playful fashion before it got itself lost, the young prince would for some days continue to dream about the fuzzy creature that seemed outlandish yet good-natured, and he became increasingly determined to track it down and befriend it, in order to permanently attach the creature to himself just as he had become attached to it. Neither he nor his men were successful in this from their own end, not then knowing the exact habits of the Shinto Husky variety. Unbeknownst to the Heathen Champion, it had not lost track of him, however, and was in fact following him all this while, having picked up his scent. It kept its distance and observed him from behind trees here and underneath rocks there, and noticed the Blessed Man's interactions with his soldiers and ordinary citizens. The kindness and friendly, approachable character of the man towards his subjects and his men ultimately convinced the Karafuto-Ken that this was a human worth befriending and following about. It then revealed itself once more to the Prince at last, this time in the presence of his soldiery, and allowed the young man to pat its head, though it would not suffer a noose: and as it followed him willingly immediately thereafter, he saw no need to tie it to his person.

[4] Some eye-witnesses remembered the event as the Emperor having to actively intervene to calm the creature down after its subduing the lethal enemy: Julian had to resort to throwing his cloak about the wild creature, since it could not hear his gentle voice trying to calm it down over the din that had by now resumed. With the cloak about it and it therefore unable to see much, he was able to approach it and make himself heard. It is said that at this point the Dog became tranquil and its usual self once more, and returned to his side thereafter.

[5] The Emperor's biographers quote him as instructing his men to give up trying to convince it to join them: "It's not a hunting dog."

[6] Dubious sources have fancifully described that on full-moon nights the Emperor's Karafuto-Ken would change shape so that it was suddenly the human head of a lady that was resting on the Emperor's heart. One such 'source' describes how the Emperor himself woke up on an occasion to find a beautiful dark-haired maiden where his Dog had been, with her arm wrapped around his. And, thinking it but a dream and confused by the dark mass of fragrant hair spread about his dizzy vision, the Emperor drifted back to sleep and awoke in the morning proper, to realise it was but his trusted four-footed comrade all along and dismissed the rest as imaginings. This dream he was alleged to have shared once, much later on and in passing, with some friends, from which the unlikely sources claim to trace their accounts to.

These stories were no doubt of later origin, probably confusing the alleged lupine ancestry popularly attributed to the Dog by chroniclers (huskies do look a little like wolves to populations unfamiliar with huskies, such as the Romans were) with the fact that the trusted Comrade of the Emperor became associated with the Fox-Lady of Shinto and Korean Shamanism on account of its many tails. In brief: in these eastern religions, some ladies are not women but are actually Foxes (Fox Kamis) with many tails, which are specifically considered to be magical creatures that can transform, and moreover have a tendency to transform into humans, surmised to be one of the forms natural to them. There have been many cases documented in both ancient Japan and Korea (and China) of such creatures marrying humans, and this persists in modern storytelling such as a famous Korean romantic-comedy series from the last decade. In some ancient cases reported, the marriage was a happy one, in other cases the creature was duplicitous or some other calamity befell to separate the lovers. It is unlikely, however, that the august personage of the eternally-praiseworthy Emperor had ended up with this particular kind of Dog, despite many a description and early carving of his famed canine companion treating of its multiple tails. Furthermore, the Emperor is specifically documented by his famous biographers as not noticing women -- beautiful or otherwise -- at that time, being far too busy then with matters closer (if not to heart, then) to hand, such as the disease of christianism.

It is probable that the Emperor's keen but common affection for his faithful, furry, four-footed little friend and most especially its reciprocal doting on the Emperor has further contributed to this mythmaking: Karafuto-Ken are, after all, notoriously attached to their humans (as indeed are many dogs to this day). Another influential factor may have been that no one seems to have specifically recorded the gender of the Dog, which presumably left the matter open-ended for speculation and unnecessary mythologising.

The more commonly heard variant of this myth, and which has more insistent and more ancient supporters, is that the Dog (or part Wolf) was not itself a woman, but that a fair Greek maiden was to have been caught into sharing the Karafuto-Ken's body for a time: out of desperation, newly-converted christians given to still dabbling in occult magic -- of the harmful kind that had specifically been discouraged by heathen Roman emperors and Hellenistic society -- were to have contrived a curse on the Emperor to never be married or have any progeny, by stipulating that his choice should ever be withheld from him. But taking counsel with Athena, Goddess Vesta (Hestia) herself was to have safely hidden the young maiden in Julian's Nakama temporarily, until such a time as christianism's imminent defeat, so that the creature could protect her from within itself even as it protected him from without. These accounts, otherwise similar in describing the maiden as occasionally manifesting in the Emperor's chamber on full-moon nights, date the appearance of the maiden to around the time when the Emperor was decisively defeating the Cretinous disease once and for all, around his 33rd year. The curse was broken in conventional manner when the Emperor decided to marry the heathen lady, and so the Faithful Dog could finally return to being the sole inhabitant of its form. (The Queen was to have had an abiding affection for the Dog, though shy by nature of any wild and large creature with sharp teeth, and would place its food on its platter from behind the Emperor and would gladly watch it eat heartily; and she dared to pet it only whenever it was occupied hugging the Emperor, though it would in turn try to immediately return the affection by nudging against her with its adorable head.)

Whatever the tale of the Greek maiden's origins and background and the manner of the Emperor's meeting with her, it remains a fact that in parallel universes, she married him and the Emperor's line therefore has been divinely favoured to be markedly prolific and more enduring than that of others, including more so than even that of the Genghis Khan in ours, though the Emperor managed this throughout by adhering to the Roman religious tradition concerning marriage (i.e. monogamy). And thus there are many Hellenes scattered throughout the modern all-heathen Hellenistic Republic that trace back to their far-famed Heroic heathen forebear and continue to share in his faultless qualities.

[7] Libanios for instance documents the then-popular use of "Many-tailed one", "Single-tailed one", "Colour-changing Wolf", "Divine Snow Dog", "Four-footed one Born in the Distant Realm of the Sun Goddess".



Man, it's so easy to invent a story on the spot centred around a smattering of history, using factual events and persons to concoct something that didn't happen and to then keep developing it further. "Pseudo-history". The emperor would have disapproved.

Ugh fine, to be emphatic then:

Disclaimer -

- the above is [obviously] a work of (terribly bad) fiction - "animal fan fiction" :woohoo: - using some factual background such as of Japanese huskies and their traits, the Emperor being historical, and of course the tales of Fox-ladies being true to eastern heathen narratives (and mixed in with features of an older story of my own concerning wolves mistaken for dogs and which turn human overnight, although I reversed the genders in this case: I used to like inventing odd 'fairy tales' when I was a kid, what can I say. Plus I like wolves. Oh and the bit on the Imperial Queen being shy of large animals and putting food on the Dog's plate by standing behind the Emperor is based on my Grandmother and Grandfather and a fierce dog the latter had rescued and re-habilitated. The speaking with animals thing is also inspired by my Grandfather, though he spoke in his human tongue to various animals - including very wild and ferocious ones at their fiercest of moments - and always had a great and unreal heathen power of influence over them. An "animal-whisperer" of superhuman ability, though perhaps he wasn't quite human.) All (other) resemblance in the fictional parts to any real historical person or animal, or to any Divinity or historical event is unintended and is coincidental. And absolutely no offence was meant to persons or animals divine.

(Why do I feel I have to apologise for everything? :gahSmile

- there is no evidence that the Emperor had a vaahanam, let alone that this was a dog or of husky breed in particular. Personally, I have long felt that the Emperor deserves a Vaahanam, since it would cement his status as a Heathen Hero, and the idea is just appealing for some reason. A Japanese Samurai Dog sounds a great choice in my opinion, but I would equally cheer for a wolf (so closely associated with both Rome and the birthplace of the Emperor in Anatolia where the Troy of his Roman ancestors was situated).

The story was inspired by my remembering how Emperor Julian himself coined and popularised the phrase "There is only one Julian" to seriously tick off the christians who were peddling the poisonous absurd nonsense of "There is only one gawd".

One imagines the Emperor must have been grinning as he came up with it, and in any case, it remains hysterically funny no matter how often I revisit the famous phrase. (Christian 'historians' are still pretty peeved about it: it exposes the utter triviality of their absurd cherished belief.) Anyway, because it seemed such a feat to be so funny that your humour still appeals (to those with a sense of humour) even ~1700 years after your passing, I thought that a Hero so all-round awesome deserved a vaahanam. And then I got carried away and tied all kinds of random things in there, because honestly, it's so easy to do.

[color="#0000FF"]Again: the only things remotely relevant to the thread are the sections in quoteblocks. (The bit on the Fox-spirits is actually part of native heathen JP and KR tradition, and I think CN tradition too.)[/color]

Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 09-06-2014

Recommended viewing:

Wildest India: a documentary series by Animal Planet, of 5 episodes at ~50 min each.

Shows some of the major natural, wild spaces left in India, and how the rare creatures and plants have survived there, with especial and respectful coverage of how there is a special bond and balance between these and the native heathens, due to the *heathens* revering them as Gods or part of the divine world.
The first episode already introduces India as "90% Hindus" and the series throughout continues to discuss and give examples of how it is these native heathens - and their innate Hindoo-derived/-based reverence for and close relationship to their natural habitat and nature in general - that has allowed India's native wilderness to survive for so long, despite the numerous setbacks it has faced. The conclusions one unavoidably comes to at the end of the series is that the further the natives depart from their traditions, the more progressive and urbanised they become, the more certain that the delicate balances between humanity and wildlife in India will become unhinged and Indian wildlife will suffer for it (as it has already started to).

The episodes are on:

1. the Thar Desert in the far north-west of Bharatam,

2. the Ganga throughout its course from source to end in the Sagar on the W Bengal side,

3. the Indian part of the Himalayan range from west-to-east,

4. the Western Ghats mountain range in India's south and how it's a main source of life on both sides of the range,

5. both the tropical jungles and the dwindling heathen religio-culture of the as-yet-unsaved heathens of India's 7 northeastern states.

Three particular aspects of the series stand out:

- the respectful coverage of heathenism in India. Coverage actually verges on admiration.

- the continuous tying back of both preservation and conservation of the native wildlife to the heathenism of the native heathens of India: i.e. the series stresses repeatedly that it is the still-heathens' heathenism that results in their reverence for the world they live in and its animals and that this is what has caused them to actively persevere in maintaining it, against heavy odds

- the practically exclusive focus on heathens instead of on converts to christoislam. Even in the episode on northeastern states, even in the section on Nagas, featured are only those native communities still following their ancestral (i.e. heathen) religion.
E.g. only those Nagas still unconverted and therefore still worshipping their Gods (and their worship of their Gods - in plural - is specifically mentioned by the narrator, as is their "shamanistic" practices like oracling based on the guts of sacrifical birds. <- What the Greeks and Romans like even Philosopher Emperor Marcus Aurelius did, as also what native Korean heathens still do).

The following are some of the elements from each of the episodes. Best not to read the following if there's any chance to watch the series instead.

1. Thar Desert:

A desert that's orders of magnitude more life-infested than the Sahara owing to the mutual relationship between humans and their animal relatives.

Examples given are Langur monkeys and how the Hindoos' reverence of Hanuman has allowed these monkeys to survive during the dry periods. Even when the city monkeys' antics in stealing food from humans during hard, dry times becomes too much, Hindoos only bring in the Monkey Catcher, who then releases the monkeys back into their ancestral Aravalli Hills, where they initially look bemused. The Hanuman Langur species also gets a look, and the narrator mentions how this species of primate is also understandably held in high regard by Hindoos as having an even more direct kinship with Hanuman.

The mutual relationship between rare carion fowl vultures and Hindoos, since the remains of naturally-deceased cows are left for these rare vultures to feed on who in turn ensure that the cadavers don't rot and result in disease.

The Rat temple in Rajasthan, where the Hindoos worship the rats as their brethren, the children of Karni Mata. The episode mentions that despite rats being frequently being bearers of fatal epidemics, no outbreak ever occurred at the temple and surroundings.

Another notable example is the fact that the region's Indian lion population fell down to 20 (owing to hunting for sport under christoislamic rule), but a Hindoo community that worships Narasimha gave up their usual livelihood to ensure the Indian lions' survival and so now the numbers are up to 500.

And more examples. Beautiful large Indian antelope (black buck or something) and other native animals, including I think tigers and definitely an Indian bear type (sloth bear?), the Marwari horses that are unique for their stamina as they don't require so much water and have an intimate relationship with their human communities as do the camels, but also the wild desert wolf of this Indian landscape which are not-so-shaggy owing to the temperature. These are considered sacred too by the Hindoos there and who therefore tend not to kill them even in extreme situations. The ridiculously cute cubs howling adorably together is a moment that will require lots of rewind-and-replay.

The Hindoo Bishnoi community (who are famously devoted to Mahavishnu) are interviewed and their readiness to die in hundreds to protect the sacred, life-nurturing Khej(a)ri trees is remembered. Their protection of all wildlife in their area is recognised as having been the profound impetus behind the conservation and continued preservation of their region's indigenous animals and plants.

The cycle is completed when the blessed monsoon arrives and the animals, humans and all life receive sufficient waters again to tide them over for the next year.

2. Ganga:

Charts the course of the life-giving Ganga from its origins in the Himalayas as Bhagirathi to its tributaries running into the ocean, and all the wildlife and humanity living along its entire course, including how the Hindoo reverence for the river as their Goddess Gangaa Amman results in their reverence for its wildlife.

The reason for the river's ability to create prime fertile land is covered - rich minerals brought down by the river eroding the Himalayas - and Ganga's unique ability among rivers to self-purify and prevent itself from becoming putrid is also discussed: even diseased bodies sent on their way in this river do not result in disease outbreaks.

Animal wildlife starting at the source of the river in the Himalayas to its emptying in the river gets a look. Including migrating cranes that return to a village in north India every year, all the way from Russia and China and *over* the Himalayas tallest peaks: although the cranes are endangered in other places, once they reach their stay in the north Indian village they are fed generously by the Hindoos there who revere and admire them.

Also given some screentime are the cuddly Indian otters, who are uniquely social among the world's otters, including how some Hindoo fishermen have bonded with otter families for generations and use them in their fishing livelihood and in return feed them generously. Other sea creatures are also shown to be religiously fed by devout Hindoos. Endangered Gharial crocodilians now slowly increasing their numbers in Bengali regions, unique rare Indian dolphins, rare birds that fish in the river and more animals living on or in the Ganga get coverage.

The uniquely man-eating Bengal tigers of W Bengal living in the mangroves growing at Gangaa's edge are seen, and it's mentioned how they're nevertheless still respected by the Hindus. The Hindoo Bengali village with 1 cobra for every 2 people, and where the snake makes up a daily part of everyone's life and is revered not feared: the Hindoos worship their serpentine Amman MAnasA devI at the local temple whose poojari is also the one who carefully coaxes snakes out of people's homes. He alone is allowed to do this, since he will not hurt them. (Note for those Hindoos who may not otherwise have the chance to see this: there is a close-up darshanam of Manasa Devi during aarti.) There's also a brief coverage of an island called Ganga-Sagar in W Bengal - where the Ganga runs into the Sagar - where a huge number of Hindoos come together in the maha mela there on Makara Sankranti to celebrate.

3. Himalayan regions:

The entire Indian area at the Himalayas range from W to E (note, only the Indian parts are covered in the documentary). Coverage starts in a not so populated area. Extremely sure-and-fast-footed, wild, shaggy Himalayan mountain goats and their traditional predator - the equally beautiful and magnificent Snow Leopard with its padded feet and bushy rounded tail (IIRC, from another doco, Snow Leopards are extremely endangered in islamic TSP and sightings had become rare there, but they are fortunately more populous in Hindoo India) - are seen living at high Himalayan altitudes of about 5.5 kms high. Bird species with special adaptations for flying at high altitudes during their migratory treck past the highest Himalayan peaks are seen soaring.

Then more human-inhabitable parts are shown, beginning at a very northern portion in Ladakh, where the Tibetan refugees have been settled, including visuals of Tibetan Buddhist monks going about their daily religious routines and their stupas. The Tibetan Buddhist laity of dispersed nomadic animal shepherds have very shaggy goats and yak etc and their daily lives with these, in the extremely cold and somewhat arid Himalayan region are shown.

In contrast to the more arid-looking Ladakhi area where the Tibetan Buddhist nomadic shepherds reside, we get to see the extremely lush area around Nanda Devi peak and/or the Manas. Somewhere here, we get to look on the beautiful hapless Lesser Panda of India (name derived from "Ponya" as the Nepalese Hindoos call them): like China's Giant Panda, Red Pandas can't even properly digest cellulose so they are restricted to eating the low-energy source that's Bamboo almost all day long, and the females are fertile for only a 24 hour window in a year (as opposed to the IIRC 3-day window of Giant Panda of China). Glad these playful animals managed to survive at all in the face of more adaptable competitors and humanity.

The Indian Rhinoceros - unique both as the heaviest and as more social than the other species of Rhinos in the world - and other giant fauna are covered (IIRC migrating elephants are seen in this and/or the Gangaa episode, and the remaining two episodes). Glimpses of wolves of the shaggier kind that I'm more used to seeing, tigers, and the predominantly "vegetarian" Indian black bear and its eating habits.

And the all-important northern monsoon due to the climate made possible by the sacred Himalayan range and its importance to life in India is once more stressed. (The mountain range of Himalayas is further specifically mentioned as sacred to the Hindoos, as mountains and hills tend to be. BTW, mountains and hills are also famously sacred to Shintos, who worship them.)

4. Western Ghats (the Sahyadris):

Footage of the immense and rare wildlife possible on the western side of the Sahyadri mountains, and discussion of the relationship between the heathens and the wildlife they revere. Humans are covered too. From the Toda - who worship their life-giving and nurturing Buffalo as children of their Buffalo Amman (c.f. the Rajasthani Hindoos who worship the rats at their rat temple as children of their Karni Mata Amman) and mention of the Toda milkman having the sacred task of poojari, to more mainstream Hindoo communities are seen (including some Hulivesha/pulivesham dancing). Hindoos dipping and splashing about happily in temple waters are shown, brahmanas doing their daily watery routines too. We just miss out on seeing a close up of a temple moolamoorti.

Note that *repeatedly*, only the still-heathen, unconverted among the populations living in the region are shown and are held up as living in harmony with their nature owing to their reverence for it as a living manifestation of the Gods and the sacred world of the Gods. (Christoislamics in Kerala naturally get no coverage.)

Elephants, rare primates and special giant squirrels living in the Ghats, as well as unique lizards are caught on camera. Native snakes scaring these primates, other mammals and lizards. The snake-eating super-venomous King cobra in action, and a wrestling match that looks like a dance between two King cobras to settle a territorial dispute.

There's a segment on modern-day Hindoo cobra catchers/relocators, invited to a Hindoo home where the inhabitants were living outside because a cobra had moved in. We see the cobra catchers doing their best to carefully coax a cobra out of its comfortable space in the human home, trying to get it into a sack and then releasing it further away from the village, closer to the sorts of wild spaces it is used to. Once again, just like the W Bengal section of the Gangaa episode, mention is made here too, that - despite snakes being feared and hated in a lot of other countries of the world - the Hindoos of India revere it (snakes being divine and all) and hence tend not to kill it.

The ancient formation of the Ghats in the pre-Asian Indian landmass - back when India was still moving toward Asia from Africa - is discussed, and so are the southern monsoon rains as a product of the front moving across the Arabian Sea and then colliding with the high peaks of the western Ghats (the highest being Aanamudi - elephant head) and resulting in a cycle of rainfall on the more tropical, western side. (Indra vs Vritra happens in the south too.)

And although the high range of the Ghats prevent the eastern side from getting this rainfall*, some of the collected waters however start trickling from these high mountainous areas forming into streams then rivers that then run down the slopes on the eastern side down through the lands there: the main rivers in southern India tend to run down from the Sahyadris/Western Ghats and therefore run in west-to-east direction to empty in the Bay of Bengal.

* Owing to the lower rainfall on the eastern side of the Ghats, the type of forests on this side are large leafy vegetation that drop their leaves when water availability is low.

Sadly, in the last 100 years or so, the increased land-grab for tea farming on the rich fertile slopes of the Western Ghats has been replacing its tropical forests and the strains this places on the wildlife there gets mention too (though no mention is made of the christian conspiracy against the Hindoo Western Ghats): the tigers held sacred and imitated in the hulivesham dancing, the native bear (?), and the migrating wild elephants and giant variety of bovine that are now forced to pass through human-managed lands and can come into strife with them. The wild or free giant bovine roaming about are shown as entering a mutually beneficial relationship with the human tea farmers (those shown in the episode are still marked with Hindu marks): since the Hindus don't use pesticides, they happily eat the weeds. IIRC the episode ends again with a summary of how the Hindoos revere this their natural habitat and how this is even seen in their tiger (huli-vesham) dancing.

5. The tropical forests of the north-eastern states of India:

This episode covers the 7 sister states of northeast India at the south of the Himalayas (though I think only Assam, Arunachal Pradesh, Meghalaya and Nagaland get specific mention, not sure I heard any section focus on Tripura, Manipur and Mizoram). It speaks of how this region is so fertile, and so tropical-rainforest-green owing to the large amounts of near-perennial rainfall.

Coverage is given not only to beautiful and colourful native birds, the intriguing "spectacled monkey", as well as a rare species of *ape* with a distinctive call heard throughout the region - called <something> gibbon, the intimidating Indian python, Indian sloth bear(?), elephants migrating through Assam and/or Arunachal Pradesh, and other animal wildlife is shown, and rare plant life too: trees that formed natural bridges over gorges that humans then further cemented as bridges. But the episode also covers *heathen* communities living in these regions and their traditions related to the wildlife: how they hunt, what animals are in their diet, etc. The narrator mentioned how the native people - often not seen by western populations - are steeped in their (heathen) traditions.

Brief shots of some people in Meghalaya playing about in the water owing to plentiful rainfall and mention is made of their traditions of using the natural bounties in their habitat. Highlighted in some more detail are first the traditions of a specific heathen community in Arunachal Pradesh (can't remember the name, starts with an A) such as their weddings, ritualistic sacrifice of chickens etc (not easy to watch), and mentions of their "shamanistic" rituals.** Next is rare footage of the few surviving, still-heathen Naga communities (i.e. non christianised) and how they have replaced their older practice of head-hunting of neighbouring communities with games mimicking this, and how their men hunting large boar as a meal for their village ends with them leaving a part of the boar as a sacrifice to their Gods (note the plural: these are not christian Nagas) and IIRC mention is made of their "shamanistic practices".**

I think one community was mentioned as hunting primate. Another still-heathen community in some northeastern state is captured on film doing ritual dances, dressed in the plumage and what looks like the bill of beautiful rare birds unique to the region and which birds they revere (can't really remember the name of it, but it could be called horn billed something or other). Nowadays, because the bird is rare, this heathen community only use naturally-shed feathers of the bird and artifical imitations in place of the bill for their special dress for dancing, rather than trying to acquire these from the (living) rare birds themselves.

** Either the heathen Nagas that were shown, or the particular heathen Arunachal Pradeshi community that was mentioned, or else the heathens seen dancing in bird plumage, are shown as carrying out oracling practices using the entrails of birds. Exactly like Korean heathens do today, and ancient Greeks and Romans.

There's also a section following migrating wild elephants. They're seen splashing about with water and mud, and we follow the group's trek, their long-distance infra-sound calls to keep in contact with elephants 100 kms away, and their discovery by domesticated elephants ridden by mahouts. This section may be in Assam or Arunachal Pradesh I think. Anyway, the mahouts regularly look out for young wild elephants to capture and domesticate. Turns out it's not as bad as it sounds nor as bad as it would were this some other country: the elephant may be primarily taken to help with ploughing/agriculture, but there is a much closer relationship than that between domesticated animals and humans elsewhere: each mahout takes care of his own elephant like a dear family member (bathing it, feeding it well and petting it) and shares a special bond with it, the elephant grows to love its human back so that - despite being released each evening to join up with wild elephant herds - the elephant returns back in the morning to be with its human again.

This post was on -

Recommended viewing:

Wildest India, a documentary series by Animal Planet, of 5 episodes at ~50 min each:

The Thar Desert, Ganga, Himalaya, Sahyadris/Western Ghats, Tropics of Northeast states

Shows some of the major natural, wild spaces left in India, and how the rare creatures and plants have survived there, with especial and respectful coverage of how there is a special bond and balance between these and the native heathens, due to the *heathens* revering them as Gods or part of the divine world.

Three particular aspects of the series stand out:

- the respectful coverage of heathenism in India. Coverage actually verges on admiration.

- the continuous tying back of both preservation and conservation of the native wildlife to the heathenism of the native heathens of India: i.e. the series stresses repeatedly that it is the still-heathens' heathenism that results in their reverence for the world they live in and its animals and that this is what has caused them to actively persevere in maintaining it, against heavy odds

- the practically exclusive focus on heathens instead of on converts to christoislam. Even in the episode on northeastern states, even in the section on Nagas, featured are only those native communities still following their ancestral (i.e. heathen) religion.

Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 12-24-2014

3 items on animals. Not on vegetarianism.


Quote:Earth faces sixth ‘great extinction’ with 41% of amphibians set to go the way of the dodo

Analysis for prestigious Nature magazine sounds alarm on the way that human activity, from overfishing to agriculture, is forcing a vast number of species to vanish from the wild

Northern white rhino’s death leaves just five left in the world

A Tasmanian tiger in captivity, circa 1930, shortly before the species became extinct. Photograph: Paul Popper/Popperfoto/Popperfoto/Getty Images Robin McKie, science editor

Sunday 14 December 2014 00.05 GMT

A stark depiction of the threat hanging over the world’s mammals, reptiles, amphibians and other life forms has been published by the prestigious scientific journal, Nature. A special analysis carried out by the journal indicates that a staggering 41% of all amphibians on the planet now face extinction while 26% of mammal species and 13% of birds are similarly threatened.

Many species are already critically endangered and close to extinction, including the Sumatran elephant, Amur leopard and mountain gorilla. But also in danger of vanishing from the wild, it now appears, are animals that are currently rated as merely being endangered: bonobos, bluefin tuna and loggerhead turtles, for example.

In each case, the finger of blame points directly at human activities. The continuing spread of agriculture is destroying millions of hectares of wild habitats every year, leaving animals without homes, while the introduction of invasive species, often helped by humans, is also devastating native populations. At the same time, pollution and overfishing are destroying marine ecosystems.

“Habitat destruction, pollution or overfishing either kills off wild creatures and plants or leaves them badly weakened,” said Derek Tittensor, a marine ecologist at the World Conservation Monitoring Centre in Cambridge. “The trouble is that in coming decades, the additional threat of worsening climate change will become more and more pronounced and could then kill off these survivors.”

The problem, according to Nature, is exacerbated because of the huge gaps in scientists’ knowledge about the planet’s biodiversity. Estimates of the total number of species of animals, plants and fungi alive vary from 2 million to 50 million. In addition, estimates of current rates of species disappearances vary from 500 to 36,000 a year. “That is the real problem we face,” added Tittensor. “The scale of uncertainty is huge.”

But - like with the fate of Hindus - whatever happens, happens: depends on what people (choose to) do about it all. Besides, humans have been "like this onlee" ever since the monotheisms: other species dying out because of monotheistic carelessness and callousness is inevitable. They'll always feel bad after the fact and bewail it all: humans are good at regretting in retrospect instead of taking timely corrective measures collectively.

It is a long day away when animals will be allowed to have self-determination and will be left alone to be - free from human interference. Heathen humans aren't even allowed self-determination and to be left alone yet.


Quote:forget everything you thought you knew about this solitary, "mindless killing machine". Sharks have individual personalities. They socialise, choose best friends and create social networks of unusual complexity. They can be trained by humans to complete simple tasks, much more quickly than rabbits or cats, for instance, and retain the knowledge for much longer. Sharks also teach each other new tricks: how to find food, identify predators and charm mates. Like sea turtles, some travel huge distances to return to their own birthplace, again and again, to give birth themselves. Most don't need to swim continuously to survive. And rather than being near-blind and reliant on smell, which is the general perception, they in fact have advanced sight. They feel pain. And the boldest sharks face a greater risk of dying before adulthood.

Why does any of this matter? Well, we're killing about 100 million sharks every year, 11,000 an hour, either for the Chinese soup trade (where the de-finned shark is chucked back into the sea to sink and die on the bottom) or as bycatch.

The idea of shark-free waters may seem appealing, until you consider the havoc that would be unleashed on the rest of ocean life if that happened. Sharks, as apex predators, balance ecosystems, stopping animals in the middle of the marine food chain from proliferating and destroying life still further down. Sharks also pick off the weakest, sickest and slowest fish, helping to prevent the spread of disease and parasites, and strengthening the gene pool of prey species. That's why scientists consider sharks to be 'keystone' species in marine ecosystems. Take them away and the structures collapse.
Lots of species of shark on the brink of extinction apparently. (Reminds me of yet another thing in McMoneagle [sp?])


Quote:Dogs Understand Human Language And Tone: UK Research

By Sounak Mukhopadhyay | November 28, 2014 11:02 PM EST

Dogs understand what people say. Science confirms what dog lovers have long been claiming about "man's best friend."

According to a study conducted by UK scientists, dogs are capable of understanding what people say, how people say it and who is saying it. The research revealed the brain of a dog can process different commands. The right hemisphere of a dog's brain focuses on tone, while the left one on the meaning of a common command. The report of the research provided some of the first proof of how the canines process and differentiate several components of human speech.

Frida, a female Chihuahua, is carried by her owner Dean Clark in City Hall before the San Francisco Board of Supervisors issues a special commendation naming Frida "Mayor of San Francisco for a Day" in San Francisco, California November 18, 2014. Frida, a previously unknown female Chihuahua, has won her first political office, being named Mayor of San Francisco for the day as part of a campaign to support the city's animal shelter.

Victoria Ratcliffe of the School of Psychology at the University of Sussex said dogs would react to both verbal- and speaker-related information. However, it is not possible to say how much dogs understand or the way it understands information in speech from the study, she said. She also said that different functions related to different information would work in different parts of a dog's brain. Business Insider reported that the researcher, on the other hand, did not claim that dogs understood everything humans spoke. Neither does the research claim that dogs have a human-like capability of language. Ratcliffe said that dogs would pay attention not only to who the speaker was and how people would say things, but also to what was said.

The age-old debate about a dog's ability to understand their master may well have been answered. Live Science reported that dogs would heel, shake paws, sit and snuggle as a response to what their human friends commanded. Skeptics have always doubted dog lovers' claim that their dog understood everything they said. The recent study may have revealed that the truth lies somewhere in between. While doubters argue that a dog can only follow the tone of a human and other non-verbal cues, this research shows that dogs are far more capable than how they may have been perceived.

However, the tricky part for a human is to find out which word their dog understands and the ones they don't. Dog lovers are often blamed for overestimating the emotional capabilities of their dogs. One research revealed that dogs felt no guilt when they showed "sad-puppy" look after doing something "bad."

(No different from little children not feeling guilt after doing something bad yet they make cutesy faces to invoke sympathy or appeal in some fashion - or else to forego punishment. Manipulation is a sign of intelligence. So dogs - like children - are relatively bright as they may also know that they're applying manipulation in this regard.)

Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 01-01-2015

Not about vegetarianism. This thread has long been hijacked into becoming an Animals thread. I think the last posts on the actual topic of vegetarianism are at the bottom of the previous page.

On the heels of VaikuNTha Ekaadashi, to commemorate him as the dviShapha - as he is called in the relevant sahasranaamam - and as a celebration of the deep, outwardly 'interspecies'-looking, friendship between Sri Rama and Anjaneya (though Sri Rama merely gave the appearance of being human and Anjaneya similarly merely looked like a mortal monkey),

here mentioning two documentaries by the American Public Broadcasting Station on this greater theme:

1. "Nature: Odd Animal Couples"

About interspecies friendship between different non-human animals.

The documentary is not about humans and animals being friends, but about cases where one non-human animal is friends with another non-human animal of a different species.

And these friendships can be seen to be very fast and deep friendships indeed. Like the goat who looked after his blind horse pal until the end and then slowly died from the loss. (Within the past two years, saw the news advertising for a video of a cat who similarly served as the 'eyes' of its blind dog friend.) Another example given in this documentary is the curious case of a monogamous couple consisting of a male goose and female giant tortoise (don't ask - I can only speculate but can't begin to understand how they reached an understanding, but both seemed to have done just that).

The documentary admits that until recently (IIRC 2013 or so), western researchers never used the word "friendship" for animals, though an article by a western biologist reposted at the Rajeev2004 blog some years back showed that the Japanese - with their Shinto-infused mentality - had naturally already understood that relationships in the animal world included friendships and a sense of family too, just like they realised the individualism of individual animals.

The native Americans - who are a wellspring of profound insights and concepts - have the profound notion of "blood brothers" which they applied not just to worthy European settlers, but which had its significant foundation in human native Americans' interaction with the animals in their world. They viewed various animals as their brothers and friends, and individual animals as blood brothers, such as in cases where one had saved a person's life and so the person recognised this by sealing it with a brotherhood pact.

In fact, the profound native American notion of "blood brothers" is a concept that's very applicable to interspecies animal friendships too, IMO. Human native Americans perceived the animals of their homeland to be part of their world - a very real, always tangible and usually central part; not abstract, nor peripheral. It was not just the animals either, but trees and rocks and waters that formed the larger family of relationships/the living world as living family for native Americans. A lot like Shintos and even to some extent like Hindoos, though the deep view of brotherhood with animals and the living world is not as common in Hindu views when compared to how central such great perceptions were for native Americans and Shintos. (Though unmissable examples exist in Hindu religion too, like Rama+kin's relation to the Vanaras and Jaambavaan.)


2. The 2nd PBS documentary is "Nature: Meet the Coywolf"

About the emergence in N America of a recent hybrid of western Coyote and eastern Wolf, with locus of origin (for the hybrid) in Canada's Algonquin forests. Their appearance seems to have been indirectly caused by human-attempted extinction of the wolves of N America's E Coast. The hybrid is surprisingly successful in areas of human congestion including major cities now, and the Coywolf's spread is anticipated in America's famous eastern citadels like New York and Chicago, where Coyote are already seen trying to make a life for themselves.

There are scenes of adult coywolves/wolves/coyotes and tiny pups (!), the sight of which was unbearable: such overwhelming beauty that I think I felt my heart crumble slowly to dust within me. [Oh what a short time that organ lasted; it only ever comes into existence at moments such as this and only to be decimated thereupon.] But like that dead British poet once observed, "a thing of beauty is a joy forever". And an abiding joy this vision granted. Despite trying to be serious, had to watch some segments numerous times, because I kept concentrating on the visuals of the magnificent animal - it must be sacred, it is so unspeakably beautiful and defies comprehension - that I kept missing the import of what the voiceover was trying to say.

Remember that N American hunter who was sent to kill a cattle-raiding wolf in the Mexican part of America? You know, the hunter who - because the air back then was still thick with the heathenism of the native Americans, and which heathenism therefore infused into him as it did into others - gradually was overcome with admiration and love for his incomprehensible Prey, and was converted into pleading for the conservation of Wolves and the wilderness instead? (Almost too late, btw: as irreparable damage had been done to wolves [and some other species] in N America; and they're still much disliked and often shot when they venture into America from the Canadian wilds. This is mirrored in how the hunter's wolf died of a broken heart shortly after the human captured it: the hunter had killed its wife/mate for life, and it was therefore but a matter of time for the he-wolf to die too. <- The documentary makes it clear that the wolf is thought to have died because of the loss of its dear wife.)

Speaking of wolves and native Americans and their heathenism, the "totem animal" concept is another profound view of native American heathenism. E Asians also have totem animals.


This post was to recommend two documentaries produced by the American "PBS" channel:

1. "Nature: Odd Animal Couples"

About interspecies friendship between different non-human animals.

2. "Nature: Meet the Coywolf"

Complete with scenes featuring baby wolves/coyotes/coywolves. So incomprehensible is the animal's magnificent beauty and the adorableness of its pups, that you will melt, and only a puddle that was once you will be left.

[Image: hug_zps1cb12615.png]

(^ The image is made by a southern Hindoo following the tradition that Vishnu=Rama and all that that entails. So, *obviously*, such images are specifically not for anyone who holds - or ever held - any other opinions on the matter, or their descendants.)

Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 01-02-2015

Related to previous. Tracked down the following doco on utoob - specifically the UK version of the documentary with narration by David Attenborough:

[quote name='Husky' date='01 January 2015 - 07:31 PM' timestamp='1420120426' post='117495']Remember that N American hunter who was sent to kill a cattle-raiding wolf in the Mexican part of America? You know, the hunter who - because the air back then was still thick with the heathenism of the native Americans, and which heathenism therefore infused into him as it did into others - gradually was overcome with admiration and love for his incomprehensible Prey, and was converted into pleading for the conservation of Wolves and the wilderness instead? (Almost too late, btw: as irreparable damage had been done to wolves [and some other species] in N America; and they're still much disliked and often shot when they venture into America from the Canadian wilds. This is mirrored in how the hunter's wolf died of a broken heart shortly after the human captured it: the hunter had killed its wife/mate for life, and it was therefore but a matter of time for the he-wolf to die too. <- The documentary makes it clear that the wolf is thought to have died because of the loss of its dear wife.)


Lobo: The wolf that changed America - BBC Natural World documentary *

by AnimalPortal

1 month ago


Every Hindoo should watch it, IMO.

There's even a tiny bit that brings up the native American mindset w.r.t love for the American wilderness. As anticipated, this is unavoidable and is the underpinning of all love for the nature of the Americas. Meanwhile, as mentioned in the documentary, the wolves in the Canadian hunter's ancestral homeland (UK) had at the time of Lobo already been extincted for some time. <- Because there was no native American heathenism hanging in the air in Europe, only christendom. Which last is all that exists in the atmosphere of the Americas today.

The largescale extermination by the christo-European settlers of the wolves (and buffalo, etc) of America - hounding these to practical extinction for the reason that they simply existed - is quite identical to the ongoing christoislamic genocide of heathens. The west speaks regretfully about the wolves of N America, but no such documentary about the native American human heathens who were similarly targeted for extermination. Yet they and their heathenism are what's behind both the notion of the US republic and American conservationism.

Maybe, in the spirit of the Coywolves now slowly reclaiming their wolf-ancestors' territory in N America's east coast, is also intermingled the spirit of the many extincted native American human heathens - and it is the both of them combined who are reclaiming their ancestral lands now.

* Linked to the BBC version rather than US/PBS release of this documentary, since I prefer UK to US when it comes to docos (this one's co-produced by both BBC and PBS, which generally means that UK made it with significant American funding), and prefer British to US voices and voiceovers. Narration is moreover by Attenborough, plus the BBC Natural History unit (like one other BBC unit) are the only good aspects of BBC and are not related to the BBC's "News" and other psy-ops units.

However, for those who want to try the American PBS version of this documentary, a predictably heathen - Asatru - woman has uploaded that too to youtube. NW European heathens admired the animals of their world, to the point that they would also understandably name their kids after bears and wolves etc to infuse their children with the animals' good qualities. The christoclass virus is in all ways regrettable. A source of countless tears, with no end yet in sight.

Lobo. Wolf That Changed America HD (US version)

by Voluspa / Asatru

1 year ago



Both videos of the documentary are HD @ 720p I think.


Lobo: The wolf that changed America - BBC Natural World documentary


Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 01-06-2015

Main page of as it was on "January 06, Tuesday 2015" before the following image and description there got changed:

Quote:[Image: 9r0n54.png]

After the passing out parade of police dogs, the best performer among them is being decorated with a gold medal at Thrissur Ramavarmapuram Police Academy Parade Ground. Home Minister Ramesh Chennithala felicitates the police dog. As many as 25 dogs joined the dog squad as their training that spanned about a year got completed recently.
A contingent of 4-legged kShatriyas.

Even all the Hindoos who are yet to acquire divyachakShus to see the Gods can still see them already: embodied in our natural world, such as in animals. The koorma moving about in water gracefully, as if it's flying, looks sacred like Vishnu whom it embodies. The Dog is similarly the embodiment of both the Vedam (see Dattatreya's 4 dogs who are the Chaturvedam) and Dharma (MBh). A wolf pack very much reminds one of Uma-Shiva with their children and the Shiva-ganas. Monkeys are the clear continuation of the Vanara Sena of Devas, and embodiments of Hanuman etc. The bears are a continuation of Jambavaan and his family. Each eagle is Garudan/the Vedam and each other bird of prey is related to Vainateya and Jataayu and his brother. All the birds and all the snakes and other reptiles and water animals are likewise the Gods to heathens. The Hindoos see their Gods everywhere, in the sacred living world of their homeland. Just like Hindoo humans look so kallai and endearing and reminiscent of the Hindoo Gods for their pristine qualities of character, so too, the animals and plants, waters, mountains/all nature of the Hindoos' world appear to the Hindoo to be beautiful and the Gods incarnate, like all of Bhu and the Brahmaandam. The Hindoo sees itself enveloped by auspicious indicators, reminders and the near-tangible presence of the Gods.

The native Americans and Shintos etc were correct in recognising the very real divinity of the natural world. Heathens always appreciated animals, even when they took the persistence of animals' presence for granted. (It is nice to catch glimpses of ancient heathen Greco-Romans' musings on animals too.)

The death of wildlife is a slow death of the human heathen as well. Their fates appear to be tied, as they seem to slowly extinct together and from the same (christoislamicly-induced) causes.

Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 01-15-2015

This one is a 4-legged heathen from Japan. Also note the ear movements* (and tail):

[Image: dyrdiq.gif]

Indescribably, incomparably, irresistibly beautiful - like only the Gods can be.

Resistance Is Futile: so may as well watch on infinite repeat.

* The two Ashwins reside in its ears, like Vayu Bhagavaan resides in its nose/snout/passage for its breath of life, and Surya and Chandra reside in its two eyes, Brihaspati/Vaak/etc on its tongue, Indran in its strong shoulders/limbs. (And Hanuman in its tail etc.) In short and clearly, all the Hindoo Gods - not to mention the Shinto Kami - reside in it and are embodied in it. It's like the Kamadhenu. They all are.

Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 01-17-2015

^ Animated GIF of irresistible four-legged one ^

News seen yesterday. There's a pic of a cat at the link, which may perhaps be the cat of the news report:

Quote:Homeless Russian cat 'saves' abandoned baby boy

Agence France-Presse (AFP)

A cat in Russia save an abandoned baby. © Corbis A cat in Russia save an abandoned baby.

A homeless cat in Russia has won praise for keeping warm a baby boy abandoned in a chilly entrance-way.

The story took place in the town of Obninsk in the Kaluga region, where the baby was abandoned in the entrance-way to an apartment block and left lying on the floor on Saturday, a day when temperatures were several degrees centigrade below zero.

A local cat by the name of Masha that lived in a cardboard box in the hallway "warmed the baby for several hours with her body," TV Zvezda channel reported Thursday.

After hearing loud cries, one of the residents opened her front door and spotted the baby on the floor, with the cat sitting beside it, licking it and trying to warm it, TV Zvezda reported.

"The residents are certain, if the cat hadn't taken care of it, the baby wouldn't have had a chance," the channel's anchor said.

Nadezhda Makhovikova, who lives in a flat on the stairway, told REN TV she went out after hearing sounds as if the cat was miaowing in distress.

"When I went down, I saw it was the baby crying."

When paramedics arrived and took the baby into the ambulance, Masha ran after them, REN TV reported.

Vera Ivanina, a paramedic, told REN TV: "She was so worried about where we were taking the baby. She ran right behind us, miaowing. She was really a rational creature."

Russian television aired footage of the shaggy green-eyed tabby cat, fed by residents and allowed to live in the hall.

The baby, a boy aged between two to three months, turned out to be perfectly healthy. He was abandoned with clean clothes and a pack of nappies.

Police have launched a search for the parents while the baby is being cared for in a hospital.

Animals have quite the ...intuition about fellow creatures. Several cats and dogs have been in the news notifying their human family member - by barking at a part of the torso or otherwise - to have themselves checked out at the doctors, only to find they had a tumor in their chest or some such. Several animals are good at sniffing out cancers and are being trained to catch this.

Even when they adopt animals of other species as their children, they always know that these are other species. E.g. IIRC: a chicken who, in a psych test for animals, had been provided a duck egg amongst its brood, raised the duckling with its chicks. The psychologists were expecting to find that the mother couldn't tell the difference. But for the duckling, when the time was right, the mother hen took it to water and pushed it in as part of making it learn what a duck needed to know: paddling about in water. Apparently the psychologists found it to be a humbling experience: it wasn't as stupid as they had credited it with. But animals generally aren't. I don't understand where many (western) humans get the notion that animals are so very different from us. Humans are an animal. They are specifically mammals and a type of primate. Over-developed sense of imagination, but not really special in any useful sense. Only "special" in looking at fellow animals as if these are aliens and concluding -by default- that these must be very different, only to find - upon repeated, arduous tasks of closer investigation/research - that they're not really *that* different after all, which are conclusions that any sensible person could have reached by just thinking on the matter.

And did people really need a research paper to come out about how fish do suffer pain "after all" (they also feel anxiety/fear, BTW, as per a documentary that I watched about sharks and whales hunting schools of fish), in order to have reached what was the straightforward conclusion that they would feel pain, and that they don't enjoy having their heads severed or being deprived of oxygen. Or live lobsters or eels being tossed straight into boiling oil or water for cooking - I don't think they want to be burned alive. If people are going to eat them fine - I'm not PETA, and was never one to get between one animal (in this case humans) and its food source. But kill them quickly first instead of burning them alive. Given the choice, wouldn't most humans rather be killed quickly - like shot in the brain - instead of being burnt alive without even the smoke to asphyxiate them first? Else why pretend to feel sympathy for all those "witches" burnt at the stake? Or Giordano Bruno. Humans don't need to go out of the way to be cruel. And without even thinking about it, that's what humans do. That phrase - being "humane" - as supposedly the overarching standard of empathy and values is actually doublespeak and means nothing. Humans barely render it to their own species. They don't generally even think of other species' unnecessary suffering at their hands. People might not be able to change their diets - humans are animals after all, and food is the primary pursuit of Life - but how one goes about it is something that can be altered by anyone who cares even an iota.

Hindoos don't require the lecture. Whether they be vegetarian or non-vegetarian, they always have a regard for life. I've noticed this in Daoists too, who are often keenly aware, and you can see it in the well-reasoned explanation at for why the present Hellenes there do not choose to sacrifice animals, even though they could have. It is a very heathen consideration. It is also seen in many western atheists (many of whom have been turning vegetarian by choice). And what's nice is that heathens in general always try to be more and more considerate about their footprint on fellow creatures and nature in general. Heathens of course have no power over the world at large, as it's christoislamic-dominated - where heathens are at the bottom of the pecking order in the casteist christoislamic human hierarchy and are regularly cannibalised by christoislamics. So they can't do much for fellow creatures and nature. Heathens can only control their own actions.* From experience, lots of western non-religious people take inspiration from heathens' views on animals. Unlike PETA, heathens tend not to be militant on vegetarianism, so heathens can plead for respecting other life without insisting everyone become vegetarian or something. Even western people who despise PETA's evangelical (in the general sense) terrorism, listen to heathens on the subject matter of animals.

* IIRC one documentary showed how remote Hindoo Vanavasis who used to hunt endangered animals for IIRC their plumage were informed that these were animals that were highly endangered. And the Vanavasis - feeling such matters keenly, being heathen - immediately gave up hunting these species and made imitative plumage to use in their decoration instead. Fellow-feeling is a natural attribute, that derives from having an innate sense of being part of the world (instead of the biblical imposition of imagining being "in charge" of it), and doesn't require "education"; so christoislamism has had to actively remove it to make people behave differently and view the natural world differently.

The news was:

Homeless Russian cat 'saves' abandoned baby boy

Agence France-Presse (AFP)

Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 05-13-2015

Post 1/2

A Rajeev Srinivasa(n) tweet at his blog:

Quote:rajeev srinivasan @RajeevSrinivasa

Not clear why it is the "Asiatic lion". when i grew up it was called the "Indian lion". Let us not lose our brand …

Very right. It is specifically the Indian lion. Even though the BBC tried to dub them "Asian lions" - typical - the specialist they interviewed particularly referred to them as "Indian lions". Which especially holds now that the genetics results were out and the Indian lion was found not to be related directly to the ME/Iranian lions, which is a separate branch out of Africa.

[quote name='Husky' date='01 June 2014 - 11:42 PM' timestamp='1401645875' post='117244']

Quote:2 April 2014 Last updated at 01:22

Modern lions' origin revealed by genetic analysis

By Matt Walker

Editor, BBC Nature

Another detail only revealed by the study of ancient DNA in specimens, is that modern lions began their exodus out of Africa just 21,000 years ago.

At the end of the Pleistocene, lions left North Africa, eventually reaching as far as India.

[Refresher from wackypedia: "The Pleistocene (symbol PS[1]) is the geological epoch which lasted from about 2,588,000 to 11,700 years ago, spanning the world's recent period of repeated glaciations."

whereas we're living in the subsequent, current, interglacial period:

"The Holocene /ˈhɒlɵsiːn/ is a geological epoch which began at the end of the Pleistocene[1] (at 11,700 calendar years BP) [2] and continues to the present. The Holocene is part of the Quaternary period. Its name comes from the Greek words ὅλος (holos, whole or entire) and καινός (kainos, new), meaning "entirely recent".[3] It has been identified with the current warm period, known as MIS 1 and based on that past evidence, can be considered an interglacial in the current ice age."]

Much later, just around 5,000 years ago, another group of lions left the continent, reaching what is today Iran, in the Middle East. These lions are now extinct.

(So having wandered all the way to India from Africa, some more wandered all the way to Iran from Africa again thousands of years later.)

These discoveries may have important implications for the conservation of modern lions.

Fewer than 400 Asian lions (P. leo persica) survive, living on the Kathiawar Peninsula of India, with the subspecies listed as Endangered by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature.

"Lion populations in West Africa and Central Africa, which have drastically declined over the past few decades, are actually more closely related to the Indian lion than to lions in, say, Somalia or Botswana," Dr Barnett told BBC Nature.

Note that although the Indian lion is called P Leo Persica, the lions that used to live in Iran and Middle-East are clearly described as

1. having been a separate and much later migration (5000 years ago) out of Africa

2. having gone extinct

Specifically, the extinct Iranian/ME lions are not related to the migration that produced the Indian lion: Indian lions had already migrated to India from Africa end Pleistocene. <- That is the reason why the news was so interesting in the BBC.

Wackypedia is still spreading the deprecated assumption - from before the genetics study on lion populations, seen in the BBC link above, came out - that the Indian lion is also the same kind that occurred in Iran and Israel etc. But as the genetics study found to its suprise, the Indian lion is distinct from the Iranian/ME lions (which are extinct; there remains only the Indian lion and 2 types of African lions).

Quote:The Asiatic lion (Panthera leo persica), also known as the Indian lion or Persian lion,[3] is a lion subspecies that exists as a single population in India's Gujarat state. It is listed as Endangered by IUCN due its small population size.[1] Since 2010, the lion population in the Gir Forest National Park has steadily increased.[4]

In May 2015, the 14th Asiatic Lion Census was conducted over an area of about 20,000 km2 (7,700 sq mi); the lion population was estimated at 523 individuals, comprising 109 males, 201 females and 213 cubs.[5][6]

(The Wildest India documentary already mentioned that a Hindoo community of Narasimha worshippers had brought back the Hindoo lions from extinction to 500+)

The Asiatic lion was first described by the Austrian zoologist Johann N. Meyer under the trinomen Felis leo persicus.[7]

The Asiatic lion is one of five big cat species found in India, apart from Bengal tiger, Indian leopard, snow leopard and clouded leopard.[8] It formerly occurred in Persia, Israel, Mesopotamia, Baluchistan, from Sindh in the west to Bengal in the east, and from Rampur and Rohilkund in the north to Nerbudda in the south. It differs from the African lion by less inflated auditory bullae, a larger tail tuft and a less developed mane.[9]

In the following article, aliens hope to use Indian lions to bring back their oryan dreams of the Barbary lion (aliens can't let species that they've extincted remain extinct, but want to create zoos of resurrected animals too)

But even in the following, can see that Indian lions are distinct from Iranian lions. And though Indian lions were closely related to that other kind, the Barbary lions of North Africa, these last are extinct too and are still not the same as either Iranian or Indian lions. (However, scientists wish to "resurrect" the Barbary. Sounds unnatural. Else we should resurrect australopithecus and other early hominids too if we ever can. Same thing.)

Quote:"International bodies currently recognize only two lion conservation units: African and Asian lions. The data clearly show that Asian lions are nested within the diversity present in Central, West and North Africa," the study says. "Of particular concern are the central African and western African populations, which may be close to extinction, with estimates of 800 lions in West Africa and 900 lions in Central Africa. The close phylogenetic relationships among Barbary, Iranian, and Indian lion populations are noteworthy given their considerable geographical separation. The restoration of the extinct North African Barbary lion has attracted the attention of conservationists both inside and outside North Africa."

The above still distinguishes between Indian lions from the extinct Iranian lions (besides the also extinct Barbary lions).

A couple of years before the 2014 lions genetics study, the following article came out. It too went with the old defunct assumption that the Indian lion is the one that lived in Iran and ME. Back then, Gujarat refused to resettle some of the lions that Hindoos - and only Hindoos (one community specifically) - had brought back from the brink of extinction, even in Madhya Pradesh where the Hindoo lion was also historically found:

Quote:Asiatic lions, rescued from near extinction, now need a new home

Associated Press

July 10, 2012


GUJARAT // A peacock shrieks. A monkey scrambles higher into the fire-coloured canopy of a kesudo tree. And an Asiatic lion - one of the last few hundred in the wild - pads across the dusty earth of a West Indian sanctuary that is its only refuge from the modern world.

Within the guarded confines of this dry forest in Gujarat state, the lions have been rescued from near-extinction. A century ago, fewer than 50 remained. Today more than 400 fill the park and sometimes wander into surrounding villages and farmland.

But the lions' precarious return is in jeopardy. Experts warn their growing numbers could be their undoing. Crowded together, they are more vulnerable to disease and natural disaster. There is little new territory for young males to claim, increasing chances for inbreeding, territorial conflict or males killing the young.

Conservationists agree these lions need a second home fast, and far from Gir government-backed experts in the 1990s settled on a rugged and hilly sanctuary called Kuno, where lions historically roamed with tigers in the neighbouring state of Madhya Pradesh. Millions were spent preparing the park. But Gujarat rejected the plan. And no lions were sent.

Now, the uncertain fate of the Asiatic lions - once dominant in forests from Morocco and Greece across the Middle East to eastern India - rests in the hands of bureaucrats, and vthe case has now reached the Supreme Court.

"We are the only ones who have lions. We have managed without interference until now," Gujarat's environment secretary, SK Nanda, said proudly from behind an enormous desk in an office complex decorated with lion posters reading: "Gujarat's pride; World's envy."

"Can we humans be arbiters of where these lions should live? Should we move the mountains and the rivers, too?" Mr Nanda said. "If the lions want to move, let them move on their own."[/color]

The subject of saving lions is an emotional one in India. The lion holds iconic status in religions and cultures. The multi-armed Hindu warrior goddess Durga is traditionally shown with a lion as her mount. Four lions make the national emblem, symbolising power, courage, pride and confidence. Even the common Sikh name "Singh," shared by the current prime minister, means "lion" in several languages.

(Singh/Simha/Sinha was a common Hindoo surname since before Sikhism, and remains so. It still does not imply Sikh.)

The Asiatic lions, a subspecies, are nearly as large as their African cousins, though the males' manes are less fluffy and their tails have larger tufts.

By the 20th century, they had nearly been wiped out by trophy hunters. (The Brits literally called themselves the "great white christian hunters".) The last Asiatic lion outside Gujarat was gunned down in Iran in 1942. Within India, hundreds of thousands of lions, tigers, leopards and wolves were killed over decades of frenzied hunting, encouraged by British colonials. Three years after independence, the country's Asiatic cheetahs were extinct.

But the lions in Gujarat got a reprieve. A princely ruler banned hunting of the few dozen lions left in 1901.

(Note again how it is christoislamics that extinct animals - even coming all the way to India to extinct our Hindoo animals. And how Hindoos alone protect animals and will even sacrifice their conventional way pf life - as the Narasimha bhaktas seen in Wildeset India did for the Hindoo lions - to bring them back from near-extinction.)

The state created Gir Sanctuary over more than 1,400 square kilometres, relocating all but a few hundred buffalo herdsmen who lived peaceably with the predators, mainly by giving them wide berth.

The sanctuary became a model in conservation, with constant patrols against poachers and cultivated grasslands for the lions' prey: spotted deer and blue-hued antelope. A veterinary hospital was built. The lions thrived.

Tourists from India's newly minted middle class now flock to the park. A few dozen trackers keep count of the animals and fill artificial water holes.

"Not everyone gets a job like this," said Raju Vajadiya, idly swinging a stick, the only defence he and his colleagues usually have or need. "It is a godly thing to give a lion water on a hot day."
(There's also a page 2.)

Anyway, resettling some of the Hindoo lions in Madhya Pradesh - historically also their territory - is a good idea. Modi's govt should do it.

But Hindoos should refuse to donate Hindoo lions or their genetic material to resurrect the Barbary (I think they found that they could reconstruct it from the 2 sets of African lions and the Indian lion). But extincting the Barbary is the West and ME's own christoislamic fault. The west is always famous for destroying things - not just that of others, but including their own heathenism - and then poaching on living heathens' stuff.

Also, repeating (because it is true): the Indian lion is the Hindoo lion onlee. And it has been nourished back to life by the determined efforts of HindOOs onlee:

[quote name='Husky' date='06 September 2014 - 06:26 PM' timestamp='1410007699' post='117339']

Recommended viewing:

Wildest India: a documentary series by Animal Planet, of 5 episodes at ~50 min each.


(Episode) 1. Thar Desert:


Another notable example is the fact that the region's Indian lion population fell down to 20 (owing to hunting for sport under christoislamic rule), but a Hindoo community that worships Narasimha gave up their usual livelihood to ensure the Indian lions' survival and so now the numbers are up to 500.


Hindoo lion hates christoislamania, who are its enemies. Like Hindoo humans, the Hindoo lions have only suffered from christoislamania and the west aka genocide central.

Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 05-13-2015

Post 2/2

Rajeev Srinivasa(n)'s tweet had linked to:

Quote:Anandiben PatelVerified account


Increase of 27% in number of Asiatic lions as compared to last census, is a matter of pride & satisfaction for us

(A matter of great gratitude. Especially to the specific HindOO heathen subcommunity in the affected region who consciously started the conservation of our lion brethren. And not a moment too soon.)

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7:39 AM - 10 May 2015

ravichandranraju ‏@ravichandransun May 10

@anandibenpatel It is also "Make in India " effect.

1 retweet 4 favorites

It's not an "all-Indian" effect. It is exclusively a HindOO effect, as seen in the previous post/as seen in the Thar episode of the Wildest India documentary.

It is ethnic HindOO Narasimha bhaktas who had consciously sacrificed their usual way of life specifically in order to bring back the Indian lions when the numbers were down to a mere 20, who started the conservation of the Hindoo lion.

That would also explain why traditional Hindoos hold bhaktas second only to their Gods.

Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 05-17-2015

1. On a comment at:

Quote: Jishnu Radha Rajan • 11 days ago


2. That

any vegetarian does not appreciate

butchering to be a virtuous act goes without saying. But that is the nature of

one set of people that is all. There are beings whose primary nature is

predation and human animal since creation has been carnivorous in

As I understand such a basic prAkRta aspect cannot be seen judgmentally. Corollary of this is that his profession is

one of the most commonly involved and permanent ones in the history of

mankind, how much ever seen with contempt both by herbivores and fellow carnivores.


While it's true that humans - at least our hominid species - are known as Super Predators*, technically modern humans aren't carnivores. We are scavengers, hence omnivores, like dogs (wolves) and bears.

Our scavenging nature (humans being omnivores) made us more adaptable to different environments. But being omnivores also means humans *can* live -as in, naturally survive- on a vegetarian diet, just like some Indian bears are predominantly "vegetarian" as described by natural historians/biologists (these bears may also eat insects for extra protein, so they aren't actually vegetarian in a strict sense).

While humans and dogs can be vegetarian - because they are omnivores - carnivores, like cats (which are true carnivores) should not be made vegetarian: they can easily die on a vegetarian diet that does not rigorously supplement them with animal products like taurine. Cats can go blind and die if made vegetarian without carefully monitoring that an unnatural vegetarian diet is giving them everything they need in the right amounts.

Yet despite the fact that cats are carnivores (must have meat in their diets), some western vegan and vegetarian PETA types want to make not just their pet dogs vegetarian but also their pet cats. It's part of their monotheistic tendency to force their choice/their very sudden conversion to vegetarianism onto others - no longer just onto other humans in far away animal-friendly heathen climes either, but now onto carnivorous animals too, even their own pets (whom they supposedly love: but only once it has been forced into vegetarianism too, apparently).

A link with some supporting info about making a pet dog vegetarian vs forcing a pet cat to be vegetarian:


Quote:Jishnu Radha Rajan 12 days ago

Animal has a wide spectrum of behaviors just as humans and human being more evolved and complex has even wider range of behaviors. There are evolved vertebrates that stay true to single mate, as there are polygamous ones in packs/prides. There are animals that part ways after mating and the female is left fending for the offspring. There are males that kill the offspring of other males so the female can be motivated into a relation. So it is not factually wrong to say female animal with her knowledge of male parent and her own commitment to offspring seeks to bind the male in the family.
(Aside: The above forgot to note that polar bear males counter-intuitively kill off their own offspring too - without knowing that it's their own kids. Polar bear males mate for a period then leave a pregnant female, which raises the kids solo and has to keep them away from the constant threat of adult male polar bears, any of whom - including the offspring's biological father too - can kill the cubs. Outside the mating period, an adult male polar bear can also attack and kill a pregnant adult female polar bear, including the one it impregnated.)

Quote:"when Western women vociferously asserted their sexuality and demanded equal rights to have sex without marriage being a precondition"

but the very notion of marriage and commitment is the human evolution over animal life. It is the female that knows the male parent of offspring. It is for the male's commitment towards offspring that female seeks to bind the male in the family. So it is quite silly to say women demand right to sex without marriage/commitment when the stake lies with female and displays ignorance of nature and biology both.

Uh, the above seems to have missed out another long-standing (and still not defunct) biological/anthropologically-ascribed reasoning for the evolution of marriage: as a means for the male to acquire right of (often/usually exclusive) sexual access to the female(s). So a component of that is as an attempt to limit sexual access to the same female(s) by other males. Oh, and it's "in return for resources", which the female presumably wants for herself and her future brood.

Don't Indian men know that feminist women keep hitting other wo/men over the head with the above?

It is immediately apparent in a certain common type of polygyny like islamic harems and mormon christianism.



Quote:Right of sexual access

In a 1997 article in Current Anthropology, Duran Bell describes marriage as "a relationship between one or more men (male or female) in severalty to one or more women that provides those men with a demand-right of sexual access within a domestic group and identifies women who bear the obligation of yielding to the demands of those specific men." In referring to "men in severalty", Bell is referring to corporate kin groups such as lineages which, in having paid brideprice, retain a right in a woman's offspring even if her husband (a lineage member) deceases (Levirate marriage). In referring to "men (male or female)", Bell is referring to women within the lineage who may stand in as the "social fathers" of the wife's children born of other lovers. (See Nuer "Ghost marriage")[7]

And also:

Sexual Strategies Theory: An evolutionary perspective on human mating

Though an old paper from 1993, it lists various reasonings for human mating and marriage, besides the above ones on rights of sexual access and paternity certainty.

In Roman society, marriage was a [literal] contract, hence - like all Roman contracts, including between male business partners or army officers - marriage too was sealed with a kiss (it's where the "now you may kiss the bride" in western weddings comes from, though it wasn't originally meant in any romantic sense). Roman men limited sexual access to their wife (though early Roman women already had less freedom than say the Indian women at that time: could not attend some public entertainments for instance, and university and voting were gradually opened up to them, see McCabe, before christianism then appeared and set Roman women and all converted women back forever). Roman marriages meant the wife's children were legitimate in the eyes of Roman inheritance laws - not peculiar to Rome - but which was the practical purpose of marriage among Romans: just as some earlier Greek communities were predominantly homosexual but had a wife restricted to the house for producing offspring*, some Roman men were homosexual individuals and had male lovers, but would still have a wife to reproduce with.

[* There was of course a time in antiquity when the powers that be in a part of Greek society - these powers being male and gay - famously contemplated genociding all women if only they could find some other means of securing progeny. <- Just so that people know that LGBT types don't guarantee to be quite so peaceful when they cease to be a minority - nor that they were always on the receiving end of persecution - and which tendencies are actually also still hinted at in modern gay literature (fiction/fantasy) which often envisions a world without women, and where all men are -of course- gay. And vice-versa seen in lesbian feminist literature.]

Compared to Rome, marital monogamy rather than sexual monogamy was more common in the very ancient Greece of the epic era, and in China (where marital monogamy is on the increase again among very rich and powerful males, as per the news): men will marry one woman (and her sexual access is limited thereby, but children by the wife have slightly more priority/legitimacy than others) but the man may sleep with other women, or even keep other women to sleep with:

- Ancient Greeks could keep female slaves captured during war for this - which the Greeks felt was more ethical than murdering the women, although the (often already married) women's existing kids were at times murdered and her husband and brothers and relatives usually were too.

- Chinese men kept a spouse and concubines, regarded as 2nd to nth wife.

No genetic monogamy.

Some modern Indics [males, as becomes obvious] of the "Indic Civilisation" kind (who are outspoken about not being heathen, btw) declare loudly that ancient Indians also did marital monogamy not sexual monogamy, and argue that such is therefore also the culture that modern Indians should continue to have: where men will marry one woman, and sexual access to her is restricted by marriage, whereas he may visit prostitutes. (<- Transferring direct statements of such people.) Genetic monogamy seems to be implied in such a scenario: as less rights are accorded to the other female mates, than in China and ancient Greece.

However, India has all kinds of marriages: polygamies (polygynandry, polyandry and polygyny), and not just some forms of monogamies, but also a combination of social-marital-sexual-and-genetic monogamy (of which Sri Rama is often held up as the example by Hindoos, perhaps because monogamy is not expected of kShatriya kings since they have to ensure succession).

In most of these cases - even in polygynandry - there are restrictions on sexual access, but in several of these cases can see that it is not merely incumbent on one gender.

[Contrastive with the above is christowestern society which - with the exception of polygyny Mormon types - claims to be of the most restricted/exclusive version of monogamy, but is not only often a serial monogamy nowadays, but was always hypocritical as to its alleged exclusive monogamy, and broke each of these. A recent infamous case is that of an outspoken anti-gay US politician who - upon reaching middle-age/midlife crisis - sneakily went behind his wife's back and donated his sperm to many lesbian couples in a distant western country - where lesbians were allowed to have children and which women were waiting for sperm to get pregnant - all so that he could have many more children than the many he already had spawned with his wife: he felt compelled by his smattering of biology to spread his genes - of the christist, hypocrite and philanderer variety - on into as many future offspring as possible. When his wife found out about his infidelity - he broke the genetic monogamy component of the all-exclusive monogamy proclaimed by western christians but which they barely ever keep to, whereas many heathens do to this day - the wife didn't just feel cheated, she was furious.]

Anyway, while basic biology motivates human mating and hence initially motivated human mating systems, there is also a social and behavioural component to marriage that's unique to humans, as testified by the construct of legitimacy and inheritance laws etc around such matters. That is, marriage has moved past biological factors into anthropology territory.

Since humans have the marriage construct - which is more sociological than biological - the reasons given from anthropology for the origins of marriage may be more applicable. Dr Roberts below is an anthropologist:

Extracted from

Quote:(Narrator is AR)

We (humans, i.e. the species) evolved as hunter gatherers, living on similar foods as the Hadza (African community). Finding food shapes their society, but it has affected all of us. It seems that the Hadza, and presumably our ancestors too, found a very efficient and effective way of surviving here. Men and women each have different and distinctive roles. So the women go digging for tubers and collecting berries, whilst the men go out hunting for meat and honey. They'll eat some of it while they're out in the bush, but they'll bring a lot of it back home to share, so it makes sense to pair up.

Having a partner to share food with is a massive advantage in this harsh environment. And many Hadza men and women marry for life.

Sharing food like this is thought to be the origin of pairing up and staying together.


(Seen from this point of view, more symbiotic than parasitic.)

Can also compare the complex marriage/social contract systems regulating what is official (e.g. recognised by law or society) among modern humans - since even before the neolithic - with how far they are removed from some biological motivations to mate in certain other species:

Quote:From a new biological point of view, monogamy could result from mate guarding and is engaged as a result of sexual conflict.[7]
(A form of mate guarding is still seen in humans, as explained earlier above - marriage as a means to restrict sexual access to the mate, enforced by society, e.g. obvious in Victorian England - but not quite the at times more literal ways in which mate guarding happens among some other animal species.)


Fortunately humans don't seem to as frequently exhibit the more extreme of the tendencies described in

whereas these are biological features of some species. While others are behavioural features*, though too general across the species to be dubbed the local "culture" of a subgroup of the species (which contrasts with more sadistically violent tendencies in one killer whale group vs another killer whale group that doesn't engage in the same 'pastime' at all, and which behaviour of the first is therefore regarded as "culture" by biologists).

* E.g. as a general behavioural feature of a species, dolphins and some large sea mammals gangrape (combined with often murdering) females for "sport": they prevent the female that's being force-mated by the gang from coming up for air. Such matings by dolphins are not always aimed at producing viable offspring. (Dolphins were known early on to enjoy mating, i.e. not always aiming at reproduction.)

POST EDITED: for more links, less "IIRC".

Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 05-21-2015

Related to the above. And back on topic.

There's a problem with the following.

Quote: Jishnu Radha Rajan • 16 days ago

"And while some may think eating a fish or a cow or a dog or a pig cannot be equated with eating a human, my question is why not"

Because they are not equal. Dead matter is not used for ritual offering anyway - for instance pUja/yajana is not done with mud/sand. Offering has to be live and consecrated (so no mRt. jIva such as water, gandha etc can be offered). And offering of plant, animals like goat, then cow, horse, man are all different and consuming/eating them is different too. This is not abrahamic, this is very much a dhArmic view. That all beings are divine does not mean all beings are at the same level of consciousness/evolution or that their consumption is same.

One needs to qualify to teach, with his knowledge of dharma and through exemplary practice of his own dharma. He can very much teach others whose dharma in terms of code of conduct might be entirely different. Expertise in a specific subject is relevant for those who have not known the "one by knowing which everything else is known". In case of dharmavyAdha etc it is not relevant.

Again, the disclaimer:

- I'm not and never was a missionary vegetarian. Unlike some others: like PETA types, or Buddhism. E.g. Buddhism, upon converting Japan's monarchy, issued laws to force vegetarianism onto a majority Shinto population, which is a majority non-vegetarian population. Ironically, Buddhism was not originally vegetarian, and there's yet been no foolproof evidence cited by Buddhists themselves - not contradicted by other Buddhists - that Buddha was a vegetarian either.

- Human animals, being omnivores, should only become vegetarian by choice*, not by others' insistence or emotional blackmail. * I make an exception for those claiming heathen continuity whose ancestors/lineage is vegetarian: these should remain vegetarian too else they have forsaken tradition, i.e. are unheathen by their break with an important aspect of their direct ancestors. Pretending to channel/reconstruct the life of ancient non-veg ancestors is just an excuse to still claim they are heathen.

So, onto the problem I have with the above: it confuses shaastras with evolution to make an argument for why eating "lower" animals > "higher" animals. Personally, I have No problem with those who are ancestrally cannibals/headhunting cannibals eating their enemies (some cannibal Polynesians ate missionaries out of revenge - like I would ever object). If human is part of your diet and you have killed human enemies, may as well not waste the protein. And of course: killing humans as a source of food is better than christoislamania killing them because they wouldn't convert.

Cannibalism still exists in PNG or areas of Polynesia, as seen in news from some years back where a German/western tourist was thought by authorities to have ended up in unsaved natives' cannibal stew.

On the matter of cannibalism vs eating other animals. From a most basic POV, people eating another human should not invoke any more sensitivity than people eating another animal: fear/anxiety (and at least eventually pain) were one of the first conscious experiences to evolve, in mobile animals at least. They seem to have evolved for self-preservation: more likely to move away from a predator if you had a nasty feeling (evolutionary fear) about its appearance or if you experienced unpleasant sensations if it had started eating your hind leg.

Many schools of fish are known to experience intense anxiety/fear - and in panic move 'erratically' but just as their predator intends - as seen in documentaries on humpback whales. Earlier, these whales' hunting methods were thought to be rather non-intimidating: they just swallowed the huge schools of fish whole. But with better sensory equipment, it became known that when hunting these whales emit sounds we can't hear with our normal ear, and which sounds send their prey into frenzies of fear. <- IIRC Biologists/natural historians used *that* word.

More recently, major scientists have come out in support of fish' sensory perceptions of pain too, arguing that humans must not discriminate against fish (as we have so long done) by pretending they are neutral to their fate at predators' hands (including us), but that we must start including fish in our concerns for the welfare of other species. I don't think these scientists were trying to make the world vegetarian or denouncing fishing, I think they wanted to raise awareness of fish as being highly sensitive to difficult experiences and that we should not treat them cruelly just because we imagine they can take it (whereas many humans won't exercise the same levels of cruelty on many mammals).

So fish feel fear, anxiety, pain. Even scientists today have not merely confirmed this but have argued that humans must have greater regard based on this supposed 'revelation'. Our ancient ancestors were some type of fish creatures also, like that of other vertebrates. So these difficult sensations - the most difficult sensations in life - are shared by a great many species. And fear is seen in invertebrates too (some spiders play dead and these and cockroaches can panic in fear when I catch them in order to throw them out). This is why I would as soon start eating another human as to consciously eat some other species of animal (though Radha argued from some "dharma" POV, which was never my argument, unless she's wishing to equate it to some universal sense of sympathetic 'righteous' behaviour, closer to the reasoning of that Hellene - was it Seneca?* - rather than apparently shastraic orderings. *Yes, here.)

And it is precisely for considerations of freedom from pain, anxiety and fear - and above all: the right to be left alone to live one's life to natural completion, as argued by some ancient Hellenes - that anyone who is a vegetarian should be vegetarian. No other reason is lasting or meaningful. And in this context, bringing in what is dharma as per the shaastras or not, or what the scale of right or wrong is in eating various species as per the shaastras is beyond the topic, though Radha specifically wanted to tie her wishes onto dharma.

If people want to argue for vegetarianism they can only ever do it sensibly from the grounds of fellow feeling and an unwillingness to inflict injury or to take away from another's chance at a complete life (as far as human abstaining can secure this). But it is exactly from the grounds of fellow feeling that we cannot condemn other heathens for continuing to eat non-vegetarian foods or to continue to sacrifice these foods to their Gods first: because man is an animal. And vegetarianism can never be guaranteed to protect other animals if it is not a personal, conscious choice.

There is a remarkable heathen insight by the Hellenes at, who think that continuing animal sacrifices in the west - where there is a clinical mass-breeding and mass-slaughtering of animals as commodities - can't be justified in their continuation of their heathenism in the modern time:

Quote:Do you perform blood sacrifices?

There are two types of sacrifices, those involving the letting of blood (i.e., the slaughter of an animal that is later eaten during the festive meal) and blood-less ones. Both are equally sacred. However today, the sacredness of the former is not easily appreciated, because humanity has distanced itself from nature and consumes meat slaughtered savagely with mechanical devices, bought in supermarkets and packaged in plastic. This is why we only persist with the practice of blood-less sacrifice.

The 'accusation' made by Christians regarding blood sacrifice is dishonest and hypocritical. It is simply made to defame us to those who don't know a lot about Ethnic religions. The Christians, who non-sacrificially slaughter millions of sheep and turkeys during their own celebrations, have few problems with their conscience.
Very well argued/explained, like true heathens.

C.f. in India/Nepal, heathens from villages still raise their own animals for food (a.o.t. the invisible mechanical processing of animals far away from the public, like the nazi slaughtering of the Jews in 'gas chambers' - which nazis argued were supposedly more civilised but which are actually the extreme of cruelty and inhumanity and show the callousness of nazis to human life).

Non-vegetarian Hindoo heathens always offer all their food to the Gods (though not at those temples where the deity accepts only vegetarian offerings). So how is this unHindu, if such Hindus are going to eat meat anyway?

Even the much-maligned Gadhimai (sp?) festival in Nepal where an article mentioned some 2 lakhs of animals are sacrificed once in 5 years and presumably distributed among many partakers, is IIRC to be eaten by these numerous Hindoos thereafter. Non-vegetarian humans would have eaten this large a number of animals anyway, as I doubt the animals' bodies would be left to go to waste: heathens are not wasteful.

So what is wrong in first offering it to the Gods?

[quote name='Bodhi' date='06 October 2006 - 03:56 AM' timestamp='1160086738' post='58621']

So, whats the point?

Point is, if one is passionate about certain ethical code or ideology (here vegetarian ethics), and wants to see that this ideology progresses in the world, it is far from sufficient to just raise one's children in those ethics. The way influences are there in our world, next generations of veggie parents may take to the conflicting ideology. It may be fine too for some parents. But, at the same time, one has all the right to do all one can, to explain why one is following the ideology one is following. And I see nothing wrong in influencing and encouraging others in joining in - through ethical, legal, acceptable, moral means of course. This is different from "conversion" as you have put it, since there is no involvement of falsehood, coercion, force, ambition, organized-church-like body or commercial interests. This is just making a thought popular.

Also you should observe, non-vegetarianism is NOT an ideology, while vegetarianism actually is, from times forgotten! So you may say vegetarianism is NOT conflicting or offending any particular ideology. It is only negating the habits and practices. Situation is somewhat similar to the difference between Buddhist monks preaching religion to no-religion people 2500 years ago Vs Christian missionaries converting people of other faiths in year 2006.

I hope I was able to convey what I think.

[/quote](Actually, in all but 3 respects - one of which needn't count - 'Jishnu' eerily comes across like the above person, though not in the above's argument of missionising vegetarianism, obviously. In any case, the Indra/Vishnu namesake certainly sounds like the comments by one 'shaastra sevaka' once seen at VV.)


1. I personally don't agree with the above insistence on missionising vegetarianism - which is shown (in the above) to derive from feeling "passionate" about this "ideology (vegetarian ethics)" = zeal -> peddling -> missionising.

It's one thing to present the reasoning for vegetarianism and another to enforce it*, nothing will be gained by enforcing it (and emotional/moral blackmail - seen in the extreme case with PETA types - is enforcing IMO). But once the [sole] argument for vegetarianism is presented - and most are already aware today - should stop there. The only worthwhile argument is that of the Hellene Seneca et al: can leave it at explaining their well-articulated view of animals deserving to live their lives unencumbered by anxiety, fear, pain, premature death/loss caused by humans; that we need not add to the burdens of other animals, especially since -in the 1st world- man's relationship with animals has become unequal in the extreme.

More than ^that^ we cannot (as in: ought not) do to other non-vegetarian heathens, as these are not cruel - who harbour neither a hate nor a callousness/indifference to animals - but nevertheless have their own diet which they have naturally evolved over a great many generations. It may be that some day they too will "self-sanskritize" - as anti-Hindoos have dubbed this process - like many other Hindoos have done. And the fact that others have done it by choice is the only thing that matters, rather than external wrangling.

* Doubly wrong to enforce it in another country, on a population of a distinct heathenism, as seen in how a converted-Buddhist rule famously enforced vegetarianism on a mostly-Shinto population in Japan, by decreeing that the nation should henceforth become vegetarian, all in order to uphold the alien Bauddha dharma and its sudden (but not originally) precept of vegetarianism.

2. Also disagree with the statement "Buddhist monks preaching religion to no-religion people 2500 years ago Vs Christian missionaries converting people of other faiths in year 2006." [Reminiscent of that so-called "OBC" Parishad in Maharashtra doing "Ghar Wapsi" of Hindus into Buddhism, end 2014, which declared that 'India used to be a Buddhist country' (in what parallel universe was that?) and that the recently-invented "OBCs" were originally Buddhist, and that there was never such a thing as Hinduism=Vedic religion=Sanatana Dharma=Hindoo heathenism. Many ethnically-Indian Buddhists pretend that Indians had no religion before Buddhism (the same is attempted by Buddhism now regarding Tibetan Bon by denying that Bon is pre-Buddhist, heathen and distinct from Buddhism, and by launching the "Bon is a spin-off from Buddhism" missionary lie. Buddhists had even tried to pretend that Taoism derived from Buddhism in order to claim Buddhism's right to Chinese and E Asian populations. Except that the proof is of course the other way. Even the lately invented Zen Buddhism is admitted by scholars to be mostly Taoism, hijacked by Buddhism and with a Buddhist veneer added to it and of course stripped of the Taoist Gods.) Quite like what christianism keeps saying about how there is no Hindu religion and doesn't recognise the pre-christian African religions either. It is part of the modus operandi of missionary religions and their peddlers: to pretend that the target population had nothing before and that therefore no replacement occurs, to make it come across as more legitimate. That is, missionary religions attempt to deny heathenisms to project heathens (or at least the masses of heathen laity) as "empty slates", open season for any missionary religion to claim. They thereby justify this to themselves as a 'missionary right'.]

BTW, India was not without religion 2500 years ago - not an empty vessel waiting for Buddhism to enlighten it. Every pocket was long heathen of the Vedic religion before Buddhism appeared on the scene.* So it was very much conversion, what Buddhism did.

But I forgot, some people insist there's no such thing as "Hindu" (Hindoo heathenism, i.e. a religio) - and no such thing as a Hindoo laity therefore - unless Buddhism and Jainism etc are all equally a part of it/the same.

*E.g. Tai-Ahom - also fellow heathens and who had included the Hindoo pantheon of Gods into theirs - arrived much later into the Hindu subcontinent.

Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 05-27-2015

1. During the dark ages of christoislamic terrorism's grip on India,

the Hindoo Indian Rhinoceros was also hunted intensively by the christoislamics=demons, until its population numbers reduced. (C.f how christoislam had reduced the Hindoo lions to a measly 20, and how the christo European infestation in India under the colonial terror had brought about the utter extinction of our longtime compatriots, the Hindoo cheetahs, see a few posts back.)

Quote:The Indian rhinoceros (Rhinoceros unicornis), also called the greater one-horned rhinoceros and Indian one-horned rhinoceros, belongs to the family Rhinocerotidae. Listed as a vulnerable species, the large mammal is primarily found in India's Assam, West Bengal and in protected areas in the Terai of Nepal, where populations are confined to the riverine grasslands in the foothills of the Himalayas.[2]


The Indian rhinoceros once ranged throughout the entire stretch of the Indo-Gangetic Plain, but excessive hunting reduced their range drastically. Today, more than 3,000 rhinos live in the wild.[3] In 2014, 2,544 of which are found in India's Assam alone, an increase by 27 percent since 2006, although in early the 1900s, Assam had about 200 rhinos only.[4]

Sport hunting became common in the late 1800s and early 1900s.[2] Indian rhinos were hunted relentlessly and persistently. Reports from the middle of the 19th century claim that some British military officers (famous as the "Great White Christian Hunters", as the demonic plague proudly regarded themselves) in Assam individually shot more than 200 rhinos. By 1908, the population in Kaziranga had decreased to around 12 individuals.[5] In the early 1900s, the species had declined to near extinction.[2]


Img caption: Moghul emperor Babur on a rhino hunt, 16th century

More proof that christoislam has only ever genocided the natives of the Hindoo subcontinent, and why all christoislam should be kicked out of the subcontinent and forever banned from entering again. "Indian" christoislamics are the same demons as their fellow monotheistically-infected from Europe and ME to C Asia.

Note how

- nothing good ever came from christoislam, only genocide. Christoislam is the *definition* of extinction/genocide. Especially of other creatures: of people/other animals of heathen climes.

- it was christoislamic hunting that had brought this and many other Hindoo animal species to (the brink of) extinction

- whereas, once again, it is only the return of the heathen, native=non-christoislamic rule that allowed the endangered Hindoo animals to grow in numbers again

- christianism is now pretending to reinvent itself as environmentally-friendly with the hope of in future laughably projecting itself as having always been so. <- More proof that christians are compulsive liars inspired by the compulsive lying of their mindvirus ideology/jeebusism, the greatest parasite of them all.

2. Turns out the "Manul" is also an ethnic Hindoo. Confusedcore:

Not only is it spread in Mongolia and Tibet, it occurs in parts of northern India along the Himalayas (and not just Ladakh). And just a few years back, its presence in Nepal was accidentally detected too: IIRC the Nepalese govt conservationists had set up cameras to monitor the Hindoo Snow Leopard, and one day, all of a sudden, they found a recording containing sighting of this mammal and had to seek confirmation that it was who they thought it was: the Manul.

So it is an ethnic Hindoo of both Nepal and India, not just a Bonpo-Shamanist heathen of Mongolia-Tibet. Woohoo.

Note how it actually has round pupils, unlike its more common - and often more recent - relatives.

Wacky's entry is telling for two totally different reasons:

Quote:Distribution and habitat

Pallas's cats are native to the steppe regions of Central Asia, where they inhabit elevations of up to 5,050 m (16,570 ft) in the Tibetan Plateau.[4] They inhabit Mongolia, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Kashmir, and occur across much of western China.

First, wacky peculiarly mentions Kashmir - a part of India - among a list of what are exclusively countries. While the map at wacky of the habitat range/distribution of the creature clearly show it residing along the Indian foothills of the Himalayas - e.g. it is well attested in Ladakh of the Jammu & Kashmir state of India - wackypedia still refused to mention the word India (and even pretend Kashmir is it's own thing and that the Manul is only found in that part of Hindoo India), whereas Tibet is not mentioned separately but brushed off as "western China". More proof of wacky being a stronghold of christoislamism and christoislamic dawaganda.

This is a better link for the creature's distribution.

I wonder if ancient Hindoo literature mentions this mammal and what its native name might be.

The following sermon is not necessary for Hindoos. But modern English-speaking elite types in India apparently started acquiring owls as a fad after Harry Potter suddenly made these popular, so that rich Indian parents were buying rare owls as birthday presents for their spoiled little HP-obsessed children (who'll probably grow up into the next selfish Deepika "myChoice" Padukones.) Hence the sermon below:

Although the manul looks like it would win the Soft Toy Competition (of all time), it's not a soft toy but has its own life. It is Not a domesticated species, but a wild animal, so not a pet. Plus I read online that it is quite okay with temperatures as low as -50 degrees (that's what its beautiful bushy pelt is actually for), since its habitat is high altitudes, where pathogens are not as common/not the same, so adopting them into your home as the next pet/family member is NOT okay: survivability of young (and even adults) is rendered lower, as the creature is quite vulnerable/not so immune to pathogens in warmer/more human-inhabited climes. If people really cared about it and were happy to know of its existence, they'd leave it alone. It is predictably endangered, and in Mongolia, Tibet, China and Russia it's hunted a lot.

And western countries (e.g. US, Germany) keep kidnapping them from their happy homes and locking them up in zoos - should be made illegal - as if they were souvenirs to keep the populace amused and entertained.

3. Forgot to add. People with cats would know, but something that IMO is rather cute.

A litter of a single domestic mother cat can have been fathered by multiple male cats.

Apparently, a multi-coloured litter Confusedweet: is indicative of multiple fathers.

(Don't know exactly why, but was reminded of the above by the litter of Karna+Pandava cubs of Kunti and Madri bearing the divine essence of 6 Hindoo Gods.)

Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 05-30-2015

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Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 07-14-2015

^ Never getting over that. Mini versions of Bhagavaan Ulooka.

"But but but His name doesn't necessarily imply..." Too bad, it does.

Post 1/?

Have long been aware that the subject of the locus of dog domestication is controversial. Do I even need to elaborate? It's Euros vs the more likely Eastern Asiatics to Circumpolar tribes (I think I read that the spitzes at least are usually admitted to be older among the latter and considered ancestral to the European kinds). Personally I think dog domestication may have multiple loci and at various dates but possibly all during the hunter-gatherer era. Nevertheless, spitze breeds may yet be Eastern Asiatic/Circumpolar in origin (also seen among Inuit) rather than European, but I'm willing to hold out until the final word's out on that.

But was surprised to find that there are aspects to the wolf itself that are still held to be contentious. This and the subsequent post(s) are about that.

The subject is obviously of foremost importance to me. But it concerns human species of Hindoos too in a way, as the next post will be significantly about different species of wolf kind of Bharatam.

1. Still shocking:

Quote:Dogs' Closest Wolf Ancestors Went Extinct, DNA Study Shows

(Isn't it actually still in dispute whether it was dogs that were "domesticated", and to what extent if any, or whether they manipulated [domesticated] man and willingly entered into a symbiotic (some docos say "parasitic" with tongue in cheek) relationship with humans, just as some wolves have developed symbiosis with other mammal species? Plus, it's admitted of cats that these were never domesticated. The question has always been Who's Using Who. After all, many modern non-working/pet dogs get free food and shelter from humans, in return for getting coddled whether they will or no, plus sadly losing natural selection and even reproduction rights. Personally, am not sure it's worth it, but in wolf packs most wolves besides alphas don't usually get to mate anyway...)

LiveScience | By Stephanie Pappas

Posted: 01/17/2014 9:37 am EST Updated: 01/25/2014 4:01 pm EST


A new genetic analysis of modern dogs and wolves suggests that man's best friend was domesticated before agriculture.

But the origin of this domestication remains stubbornly mysterious. Researchers analyzed the genomes of wolves from three likely sites of domestication (the Middle East, Asia and eastern Europe), and found that modern dogs were not more closely related to any of the three. In fact, it seems that the closest wolf ancestors of today's dogs may have gone extinct, leaving no wild descendants.

"The dogs all form one group, and the wolves all form one group, and there's no wolf that these dogs are more closely related to of the three that we sampled," said study researcher John Novembre, a professor of genetics at the University of Chicago. "That's the big surprise of the study." [10 Things You Didn't Know About Dogs]

Domestication mystery

The origin of the domestic dog is a persistent mystery. Fossil evidence for domestication dates back as far as 33,000 years, based on the shape of the skull and on ancient DNA analysis. But the presence of a dog-like canine doesn’t prove the origin of modern dogs; even if the fossil represents a domesticated dog, it could have been a failed lineage that left no descendants.

(Note how that last hypothesis itself implies multiple - at least temporal if not spatial - domestication events.)

Researchers know that dogs regularly lived with humans by about 10,000 years ago, and dogs and people are found buried together as early as 14,000 years ago. Various genetic studies have pointed to China, the Middle East and Europe as the origin for today's domesticated dogs.

Novembre and his colleagues wanted to refine the understanding of domestication using high-quality, full genomes. They gathered full gene sequences from a wolf in Israel, a wolf in China and a wolf in Croatia to encompass the possible sites of the original dog domestication. Next, they also sequenced the full genomes of an Australian dingo, a feral dog species thought to have originated in Southeast Asia, and an African basenji. Neither of these dogs have territories that overlap with wolves, so researchers hoped they would see little of the post-domestication interbreeding that so often confuses the story of how dogs and wolves split.

The researchers also had a previously done full genome sequence for a Boxer.

Complicated canines

The high-quality, full sequences allowed the researchers to look at genetic variations across the entire genome. That's important, Novembre told LiveScience, because previous work was limited to snippets of DNA, chosen because they were known to vary from dog breed to dog breed. [The Coolest Animal Genomes]

"When we apply these to looking at dogs and wolves, we don't get a complete picture, because we can't see the variations that existed in wolves but vanished in dogs," Novembre said.

The new results, published today (Jan. 16) in the journal PLOS Genetics, reveal that dogs do not hail from the same lineage as modern wolves — a big surprise, said Novembre, who was hoping to see evidence for either a single domestication or multiple domestication events, where, for example, the Australian dingo would be most related to the Asian wolf and the African basenji would be most related to the Middle Eastern wolf.

(See a few paras further below.)

Instead, the dogs are all most closely related to each other. The pattern suggests that dogs arose from a now-extinct line of wolves, Novembre said. Later, early in domesticated doggie history, they interbred with still-wild wolves, causing a genetic snarl that frustrates dog genetics researchers to this day.

The sequences also revealed that the first dogs arose from a very small number of the wolves that lived in their day, Novembre said. Around the time of domestication, both wolves and dogs experienced what's known as a population bottleneck — their numbers dropped. Genes can't explain why these drops occurred, Novembre said, but in the case of wolves, human encroachment and competition for large prey probably played a role.

Finally, the comparisons suggest that wolves and dogs split between 9,000 and 34,000 years ago, with a likely interval being between 11,000 and 16,000 years ago, before the rise of agriculture. Those findings are in line with the fossil record, Novembre said.

Previous research had suggested that perhaps dog domestication got a push from a genetic mutation that made it easier for modern dogs' ancestors to digest starch — meaning they could scavenge from human garbage piles. The new study looked at that gene mutation and found that it certainly occurred, but likely after dogs were already domesticated. Dingos, for example, are unquestionably dogs and not wolves, but they have few copies of the starch-friendly gene.

"You had domestication occurring in the context of dogs hanging around human hunter-gatherer groups, and only later, when these groups began to switch to farming, did they change their diets," Novembre said.

More answers coming?

However, there are still many questions left to answer. The reason for such a wide range of 25,000 years for the origin of domestication is that researchers had to base the estimate on rates of mutation in the genome. Mutations are rare, Novembre said, and estimating how often they happen is a tricky proposition. The best way is to compare the genomes of parents and offspring, but that work has not yet been done with dogs. Once it's done, Novembre said, the team will be able to refine its estimates.

However, the discovery that modern wolves and modern dogs seem to be more like sister groups than ancestors and descendants means that modern DNA sequences likely won't reveal the origin of domestication. To answer that question, Novembre said, ancient DNA analyses will be necessary.

So far, DNA sequences extracted from fossils are incomplete. But just as researchers have now sequenced a complete Neanderthal genome, they're on the cusp of sequencing full genomes from fossil dogs and wolves.

"Several groups are hammering away" at the problem, Novembre said, adding that a full ancient dog genome could be as few as nine months away.

Copyright 2014 LiveScience, a TechMediaNetwork company. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Anyone could have guessed it was pre-agriculture: hunter gatherer ancestors were known to do the hunting bit with domesticated wolves I mean dogs.

[Anyway, as was always obvious, oryanism in any case could never have dreamt of claiming the single greatest event in human history: when wolves first decided to make friends with mankind. Dog domestication predates PIE-ism. Mwaha. Haha. Hahahahahaha. And even IE-ists' self-aggrandising claims of horse-domestication turned out to have been false, with horses having apparently been independently domesticated by multiple non-IE populations in various areas... while there are questions hanging over whether the horse was ever even domesticated in the steppes.]

I had initially wondered why the HindOO wolves were left out from the study. But, as becomes apparent in the next post, apparently preliminary testing had revealed that except for one, the remainder of our 3 (or rather 4) wolf species are not thought to have originated dogs.

Yet one of these species - shared with Tibet and China - was until the late 1970s/early 80s at least thought to have been the progenitor of the domesticated kind. It's not made clear, but was a representative of that species the one that was the "Chinese" wolf considered in the above genetics study? (Else one would wonder why that wolf species was excluded from the above study.)

Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 07-14-2015

Post 2/2

There are about 3 (or is it 4) species of Hindoo wolves.

They all occur in India, but are called

- the Indian wolf,

- the Himalayan Wolf, shown to not be a Grey wolf after all

- the "Tibetan" Wolf which is a type of Grey wolf (Gray wolves are seen in much of Eurasia, but the Tibetan wolf is seen from the Indian subcontinent to Korea at one stage)

- Golden "Jackal", which is apparently more wolf than jackal. Even so, not sure if it is counted as a wolf by everyone.

Not sure what the best order for posting here will be, but excerpting from various sources as linked.

General wolf information:

Quote:Wolves of the World

Wolves come in many shapes, sizes and colors... varying from the brawny black wolves of Canada’s Mackenzie River to the petite tawny wolves that once roamed the Falkland Islands. The wolves of the world have captured human fascination for as long as memory serves. We (speak for yourself) have persecuted them for daring to compete with us for resources and yet we have also invited them into our homes to live as domesticated dogs. For as long as we have maintained our fascination with them, we have also been trying to classify them. Today we recognize nine distinct species of wolf (one of which humans [read: christos from Europe infesting the Falklands] drove to extinction in 1879 and one with an odd name) spread over six continents.

Gray Wolf (Canis lupus)

Gray Wolf

The gray wolf is the largest wild canid, usually weighing between 70 and 120 lbs. They vary in coloration greatly - from black to gray to tawny to white. Gray wolves have slanted eyes, varying from yellow to deep amber in color. To allow for swift and efficient movement through snow, brush and other conditions, gray wolves have narrow chests, with elbows set close together. A gray wolf’s tail is straight and usually hangs to its hock (knee). Gray wolves have noticeably larger heads than other canids, which is often attributed to their high level of intelligence. Their large paws, which are webbed with fur, aid in movement across mud and snow.

Being very social animals, gray wolves live, travel, and hunt in packs of typically 2-15 animals, though there have been reports of up to 38 wolves in one pack. Gray wolves are opportunistic predators, which mean they hunt large and small game, but will also feed off of carrion. Because of the gray wolf’s large pack size and intricate social hierarchy, they can work together to bring down large game such as deer, elk, bison and moose. Nearly all the different names you hear for wolves - timber, arctic, Mexican gray, buffalo, plains, Canadian, tundra, ect. - are either nick-names or subspecies of the gray wolf.

The gray wolf’s progenitors probably first evolved in Eurasia 800,000 years ago, spreading to North America via the Bering land bridge 300,000 - 400,000 years ago. Once in North America, the gray wolf coexisted with the much larger and more powerful Dire wolf until its extinction 8,000 years ago. Since that time the gray wolf has come to be the dominate canine predator of the world, with 37 recognized subspecies ranging across six continents.

Among the 37 subspecies of Gray Wolf, the "Tibetan Wolf" also dubbed "Chinese wolf" (despite occurring in much of Asia) occurs in India, and is thus not just a Bon, other Shamanist and Taoist wolf in the rest of Asia, but those in India and Nepal are HindOO heathens:

"Subspecies: Tibetan wolf/Chinese Wolf

Scientific name: C.l. chanco

Range: China, Russia, Manchuria, Tibet, India, Nepal, Bhutan"

Will get back to the above species later.

Quote:Himalayan Wolf (Canis himalayensis)

Photo: Himalayan wolf - by yukonmarty

The small, light-colored wolves native to Northern India, Kashmir (uh, Kashmir IS in northern India) and Eastern Nepal were long thought to be part of a subspecies of gray wolf called the Tibetan wolf (Canis lupus chanco). However, mtDNA analysis suggests that they should instead be classified as a distinct species – the Himalayan wolf (Canis himalayensis). Along with the Indian wolf, Himalayan wolves may represent an ancient line of wolves predating even Canis lupus. Himalayan and Indian wolves are probably the oldest living lineages of any wolf species in the world, having been isolated on the Indian subcontinent for over 800,000 years. They are so distinct, in fact, that they do not share any genetic markers with gray wolves or domestic dogs.


There are only about 350 Himalayan wolves left in the wild. (Let me guess: the great white christian hunter, and the islamic rulers with their bloodthirst for the kill I mean hunt of Indian animals?) Though critically endangered, these wolves are still widely hunted as pests throughout their range in the Himalayan Mountains. Thankfully India started a captive breeding program in 2001 with one lone female. With much work the captive population has grown to include 21 animals.

(Yet Hindus of the regions where our wolves live apparently have religious injunctions/taboos against killing wolves. This is also indicated in an excerpt further below.)

Indian Wolf (Canis indica)

Photo: Indian wolf

Originally thought to be the same gray wolf subspecies as the Iranian wolf (Canis lupus pallipes), the Indian wolf has recently been designated as a separate and distinct species (Canis indica). Recent mtDNA analysis shows that the Indian wolf’s ancestors were isolated on the Indian subcontinent over 800,000 years ago, and then split to form the modern Indian wolf and Himalayan wolf some 400,000 years ago. Though the Indian wolf’s range overlaps greatly with its closest relative, the Himalayan wolf, almost no interbreeding has occurred because of behavioral differences.

The Indian wolf is one of the world’s smallest wolves, measuring only 24-38 inches in height and weighing 40-60 pounds. They are almost always reddish or tawny in color with long legs and narrow muzzles, and have a shorter and thinner coat than northern wolves.

Canis indica is only found in the Indian states of Gujarat, Rajasthan, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Karnataka, and Andhra Pradesh. With 2,000-3,000 remaining in the wild, Indians wolves are protected as an endangered species. However, they are still commonly hunted and poisoned by locals because of attacks on livestock and children. (Yet that documentary specifically said that Hindus generally try not to retaliate against the wolves. So one wonders whether there is a correlation to "locals" attacking wolves and the increase in christoislamania and other unheathenism like psecularism in India.) These attacks are far more common in Indian wolves than in other wolf species because nearly all of their large native prey was hunted to extinction by humans (Read: christobrits and islamic rulers).


Golden Jackal (Canis aureus)

Photo: Golden jackal - by D. Gordon E. Robertson

The golden jackal (Canis aureus) is a wolf in all but name. It is much more closely related to wolves than to other jackals and probably evolved in Asia rather than Africa. They resemble coyotes in general appearance but are smaller and lighter, and their vocalizations are very similar to domestic dogs. Though the largest of the jackals, they only weigh 15-33 pounds. Golden jackal coat length and color varies with their habitat but it is generally some shade of reddish-gray.

Canis aureus is the only jackal found outside of Africa. Their huge range spreads across Northern Africa, Southeastern Europe, Western and Southern Asia, and across the Middle East. Though no comprehensive population study has been conducted for the species, golden jackals are generally considered to be thriving and are hunted throughout their range as pests. In Russia they are commercially hunted and trapped for their fur, to be used in ladies’ hats and coats.

Golden jackals are highly adaptable animals – successfully living in the African savannahs, European mountains and Indian tropical forests. They usually feed on small mammals, but have been known to scavenge off larger carcasses. In India, they have been known to form symbiotic relationships with wild tigers. The golden jackal follows the tiger at a distance and waits to clean up the scraps after a kill. The jackals are also known for scouting out large prey and alerting tigers to the opportunity. Perhaps it was their malleability and resourcefulness that lead the ancient Egyptians to worship the golden jackal as Anubis, the god of embalming and the afterlife.

As an aside, in the above excerpted bits, the "Canis Indica" was specifically said not to be misconstrued as related to the Iranian wolf any more, but distinct.

Found something interesting about the Iranian wolf:

Quote:Thursday, August 1, 2013

Wolves of the World: When does a wolf not howl?

by Kymberli Morris

We know that wolves do not howl at the moon, but do all wolves howl? The answer is no.

There are two sub-species of Grey Wolf that are not known to howl: the Arabian wolf and the Iranian wolf. The Arabian wolf (Canis lupus arabs) can be found in Israel, Iraq, Oman, Yemen, Jordan, Saudia Arabia and the Sinai Peninsula in Egypt. One of the smallest sub-species of grey wolf, it stands just over 2 feet tall at the shoulder and weighs less than 50 lbs. Also, they do not live in large packs, preferring to hunt in pairs or groups no larger than 3 or 4 animals.

The Iranian wolf (Canis lupus pallipes), found in Northern Israel, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran, ranges from 50-70 lbs and also stands a little more than 2 feet tall at the shoulder. The Arabian wolf is considered Critically Endangered and the Iranian wolf is considered Endangered according to the International Wolf Center’s classifications.

Brilliant page with pictures of our Hindoo heathen brethren like Snow Leopard, Clouded Leopard etc. Awesome. Anyway this bit:

Quote:Wild Indian Wolf

Indian-Grey-Wolf (Not a grey wolf actually)

Indian wolves are distributed around the Himalayas range of India and prey on antelopes, rodents and hares. Hunting of wolves in India considered as as taboo and sign of bad harvest.

Quote:The Indian Wolf

Indian Wolves

For a long time, it was believed that the Indian Wolf was a gray wolf subspecies and was recognized as the Canis lupus pallipes, the same as the Iranian Wolf. However, recent genetic research suggests that the Indian Wolf has not cross-bred with any other subspecies in over 400,000 years which would make it a separate species of it's own, the Canis indica. The Canis lupus pallipes would then refer to the wolves from the Arabian peninsula, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, but not India.


The Indian Wolf is adapted to scrublands, grasslands, and semi-arid pastoral environments. It is found mainly in the Indian states of Gujarat, Rajasthan, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh. Its territories range from 100 to 150 square miles. Much of the Indian Wolf's habitat overlaps that of the Himalayan Wolf, and because of this, it is a wonder why the two do not interbreed.

Karnataka and Andhra. Yet not Tamilnadu? But of course there are Hindoo wolves native to TN. <- Look how I made a subtle self-reference.

This next page still confuses/merges Tibetan Wolf with Himalayan wolf, but otherwise tells us that there are (at least) 3 species of wolf in India. I think they then count the Golden Jackal as the third?

Quote:Tibetan Wolf

[Photo of a simply beautiful Hindoo wolf. Not sure if it's of the Tibetan Wolf species or Himalayan Wolf, since the following text still confuses the two species.]

Extremely threatened due to hunting, killing. IWAP lists it as a Schedule I species. Very little known about the species, one of the three species of wolves found in India.

Indian subcontinent. Canis lupus chanco or the Tibetan (Himalayan) wolf is found in the trans-Himalayan region and its range extends into Tibet, China, Manchuria, and Mongolia. Wolves form a distinct species and are of utmost significance from the perspective of conservation. Their reduced numbers and loss of forest habitat, loss of habitat-that deprives wolves of sites for proper denning and rendezvous-and the resulting depletion of natural prey pose a major threat. Diseases, such as canine distemper-a viral disease affecting the nervous system-and rabies pose another threat. Moreover, little is known about the ecology, behavior and status of the Himalayan wolves.The Tibetan Wolf features on schedule 1 of the Indian Wildlife (Protection) act 1972as an endangered species.

The first breeding pair came from Shimla Zoo in 1994. First breeding started in 1994.Till now there have been 32 births, in the park of this species. Out of these 6 animals died in the zoo due to old age.!7 animals have been given to Shimla, Nainital and Gangtok Zoo.

That site belongs to a "zoological park":

Quote:Darjeeling Zoo: Padmaja Naidu Himalayan Zoological Park

This is the only specialized Zoo in the country and is internationally recognized for its conservation breeding programmes of Red Panda, Snow Leopards, Tibetan Wolf and other highly endangered animal species of Eastern Himalaya.

(To repeat: it's true. Red Pandas don't just come in Taoist and Bon varieties, but there are Hindoo Red Pandas: they occur naturally in India and Nepal too! :So happySmile

It was formerly known as Himalayan Zoological Park and was established on 14th August, 1958 in Darjeeling (West Bengal) as a joint venture of Govt. of India (Department of Science and Technology) and Govt. of West Bengal (Department of Education). In January, 1972, the Park was converted into a registered Society under West Bengal Societies Registration Act, 1961 with an understanding that the maintenance cost of the zoo will be shared by the Center and State Governments. The Society in May, 1993 was transferred to Department of Forests, Govt. of West Bengal. At the Govt. of India level the Zoological Park is under the Ministry of Environment and Forests.

The Zoological Park is striving for the maintenance of ecological balance in the Eastern Himalayas with the following objectives :



Quote:The Tibetan wolf (Canis lupus chanco), also known as the woolly wolf, is a gray wolf subspecies native to Asia from Turkestan throughout Tibet to Mongolia, northern China and the Indian subcontinent. In Tibet and Ladakh it is known as chánkú or shanko.[2]

Canis lupus is relatively widespread with a stable population trend and has therefore been assessed as Least Concern by IUCN since 2004.[3]

Canis lupus chanco is regarded as a synonym of Canis lupus lupus, reflecting a recent tendency to lump older subspecies and to name fewer new ones.[4]

The Tibetan wolf is thought by some scientists to be the most likely ancestor of the domestic dog, on account of its small size and mandible morphology, noting that the uppermost part of the lower jaw is turned back on both the Tibetan wolf and the dog, though not so in other grey wolf subspecies.[5]

[5] Olsen, S.J., Olsen, J.W. (1977). The Chinese wolf, ancestor of new world dogs. Science 197: 533–535.


Distribution and habitat

Between 1847 and 1923, Tibetan wolves have been described under various scientific names from Chinese Tartary, Tibet, Kashmir, the Gobi Desert, and from near Seoul in Korea. Their distributional range extends from the Russian Pamir, Chinese Turkestan, Tien Shan, Mongolia and northern China.[10] Their range in China includes Shensi, Sichuan, and Yunnan. In the 20th century, wolves were not recorded on the southern slopes of the Himalayas in Nepal.[2]

In the western Himalayas they are known to occur in Kashmir and Lahul, Himachal Pradesh, and in Pakistan's Chitral District. (Oh Chitral: also where heathen humans have (barely) survived. Explains everything.) [11] Between 2005 and 2008, sightings and scat of Tibetan wolves were recorded in the alpine meadows above the tree line north-east of the Nanda Devi National Park in Uttarakhand.[12]

In November 2013, a Tibetan wolf was photographed by a camera trap installed at about 3,500 m (11,500 ft) altitude on the Sunderdhunga Glacier in Bageshwar district, Uttarakhand.[13]

[11] Aggarwal, R. K.; Ramadevi, J. and L. Singh (2003). "Ancient origin and evolution of the Indian wolf: evidence from mitochondrial DNA typing of wolves from Trans-Himalayan region and Pennisular India". Genome Biology 2003, 4: 6. doi:10.1186/gb-2003-4-6-p6. Retrieved 28 August 2013.


Historical sources indicate that wolves occasionally killed children in Ladakh and Lahoul.[2] In Japanese Korea in 1928, wolves claimed more human victims than tigers, leopards, bears and boars combined.[15]

The final reference, [15], goes to an article about foreigners mining in Korea as part of something actually called "Oriental Consolidated Mining Company [OCMC]" (must be the Korean variant of the East India Company: for looting heathen nations). Don't know why the Foreign Devils - oh did I just yet again translate the colonial-era Chinese term for the aliens? - don't know why the alien christo-demons didn't just call themselves exploiters of others' wealth and lives. (Speaking of which, the Brits have been outed in recent news as having been deeply beein into "owning" Africans as slaves - c.f. how the Brits usually try to fingerpoint just the AmriKKKans on that one, and try to reduce their criminality to "merely" trading in slaves instead of also "owning" them. <- IIRC there was just such a dialogue in some illustration from Trollope.)

Anyway, the alien miners reported that wolves regularly attacked. Either the mining operations had come too far into wolf territory, and probably affected the creatures' actual food supply thereby, so that the humans had to supplement the animals' usual food sources, or the Shamanist wolves just didn't like christo-exploitation. A la the famous lion attacks against the colonials in Africa. (Wasn't there a typical simplified hollywho film on this subject: The Ghost and The Darkness I think it was called? IIRC the lions were supposed to be African heathen ancestors avenging heathenism/Africans by knocking of the christos/foreign devils.)

Either way, apparently 48 victims of wolf attacks in Korea at one point:

Quote:Devils in the Darkness

The Korean Gray Wolf was a terror for miners

(Such a christian title. Of course the wolves must be the devils not the alien miners encroaching on the habitat and food supply of the wolves. Oh poor persecuted alien looting christian demons.)


Wolves continued to plague the Korean countryside long after the tigers became scarce, and for the most part extinct, moving to the top of the food chain. Farmers and rangers, both Korean and Japanese alike, hunted and trapped the wolves extensively not only for their pelts but also as protection for their families and livestock. Despite their best efforts, the wolves continued to flourish.

It would be interesting to know how the wolves fared during the Korean War when so much of the country was destroyed and food more plentiful (in the form of corpses and animal carcasses), and the people better armed. Evidently the wolves were so plentiful in North Korea that in 1959 the North Korean government designated the wolves as nuisances and granted permission for any citizen to hunt them at will. According to surveys performed in the 1980s there were an estimated to be no more than 20 wolves in the Mount Paekdu region, but with the great famines and disasters that plagued the North in the late 1990s and the early 2000s, the continued existence of these wolves is uncertain.

Wolves in South Korea fared even worse. With most of the country rapidly being developed and forested and uninhabited lands few, by the early 1960s the Gray Wolf was all but exterminated from South Korea -- with perhaps only a few left in the mountainous regions of Chiri-san and Taebaek-san. There have been reported sightings, the most recent in 1987, but no concrete proof of the wolf's continued existence in the wilds of South Korea.

Despite their great numbers in the past, the wolves have literally disappeared in the 60-plus years since the Western gold miners left Korea. They, like the tigers, are now stories from the past -- a treasure that has been lost.

(They're not "lost", they're extincted or appear to be.)

The price of human "progress". At least the E Asian heathens lament the losses truly, with sincerity, and even side with the loss of the various animal and plant species (because as heathens they identify with these as the truer heathen selves) in their literature and films. The Japanese are particularly famous for such self-criticism, e.g. "Pom Poko", "Kaze No Tane No Nausicaa", and my favourite from that series "Mononoke Hime".

Back to the HindOO wolves, this is wackypedia on the Himalayan Wolf. Apparently some don't want to recognise it as distinct from the Grey Wolf species despite the DNA studies:

Quote:Himalayan wolf

The Himalayan wolf (provisional name: "Canis himalayensis") has been suggested by several Indian biologists for recognition as a critically endangered canid species, distinct from Canis lupus. Results of mitochondrial DNA analysis suggests that the Himalayan wolf is phylogenetically distinct from the Tibetan wolf Canis lupus chanco.[1] In April 2009, the Latin binom Canis himalayensis has been proposed as nomenclatural and taxonomic change by the Nomenclature Specialist on the CITES Animals Committee.[2]

However, the IUCN Wolf Specialist Group has not taken a position regarding this issue. The editors of the third edition and current of Mammal Species of the World consider the small population to be Tibetan wolves, a subspecies of the gray wolf, despite that the Himalayan population are much older than Tibetan wolves.[3]


Lineages of the Indian subcontinent, with C. himalayensis being the oldest

Canis lupus himalayensis found in Himalayan zoological park, Darjeeling

Until recently, all wolves and dogs were believed to be part of the wolf-dog clade, meaning all domesticated dogs are derived from wolves. When the Himalayan lineage was studied, it became apparent these wolves shared no genetic markers with dogs. This indicates the Himalayan wolf played no role in the domestication of dogs.[6] The estimated time of the split of the Himalayan wolf from the other wolf lineages (0.8–1.5 millions of years ago) correlates with the period of rapid uplift of the Tibetan Plateau and associated habitat modification (0.9–1.1 millions of years ago).[7]

The Indian subcontinent includes three diverse, distinct wolf lineages — Indian wolf, Tibetan wolf and Eurasian wolf. This fact makes the Indian region the likely cradle of modern wolf evolution.[6]

(Final claim is interesting if it turned out true.

But India simply has massive biodiversity. Even noticeable in the more obvious: such as the number of larger mammals we have.

Humans actually fall in there too. The subcontinent is just an ideal area for life to multiply and diversify.

Still the 3 Indian subcontinental wolf lineages mentioned above are a bit confusing: there is the Indian wolf/Canis Indica, the Tibetan wolf - which is classed as a Gray Wolf and which hence must be the "Eurasian wolf" - since the 3rd species ought to be the Himalayan Wolf/Canis Himalayensis as this is now found to be distinct not only from the Tibetan Wolves and other Gray Wolves (not being a Gray wolf), but from all other extant wolf species, including the Indian Wolf/Canis Indica. Or did I miss something?)

According to Aggarwal et al., mitochondrial DNA analysis suggests the Himalayan wolf is distinct from the Tibetan wolf, and represents the most ancient wolf lineage ever recorded.[1] However, other researchers have questioned this conclusion, claiming that recent genetic studies have lacked in one or another aspect to provide a complete picture. The Himalayan wolf is present strictly in the Indian region of Ladakh and Spiti and differs from the wolf in Tibetan part. As these areas are part of the same landscape, the question of what ecological or behavioural barriers could be facilitating such strict divergence, particularly when no striking morphological differences occur between the wolves from Tibet and Indian Trans-Himalaya, remains unanswered. Another problem is related to limited data: none of the studies have collected samples from the Kashmir valley population, despite suggesting it as the area of potential contact of the closely related wolf clades. Instead, the samples have been collected from Indian zoos or museum specimens.[8]

Perhaps for the same reason that Himalayan Wolf and Canis Indica (Indian Wolf) haven't interbred.

(Oh wait, this is India. I can already hear allegations of casteism for such "endogamy". No?)

Yet consider how it took centuries before the Eastern Wolves of N America decided to interbreed with the Coyotes. Until then N America's Eastern Wolves just killed the Coyotes if these ventured into their territory. IIRC they're even described as enemies traditionally. This interbreeding is very recent, started around the turn of the 19th century IIRC, and happened as a result of... let's call it desperation: loss of territory by both, and for what's thought to be some mutually-beneficial reason, they're now teaming up by interbreeding.

Whereas, maybe the 3 species of Hindoo wolves see no need (yet) to interbreed? Or maybe - 'cause they're called distinct "species" - they don't produce viable offspring(?) Or perhaps relative sizes of the creatures are not very compatible for breeding? (Very small dog varieties and very large ones don't seem to interbreed easily with each other either. But none of the Indian wolves seem that large: aren't they're all relatively smallish creatures compared to some other wolves?)

Alternatively, just like behavioural differences were cited btw Canis Indica (Indian Wolf) and Canis Himalayensis (Himalayan Wolf) that have kept them from interbreeding, there may be subtle behavioural differences between the latter and the Tibetan Wolf species too that have kept them from interbreeding. Who knows. But if the genetics results show they haven't interbred in aeons, then they haven't interbred.

Moreover, at minimum, if the Himalayan species is more ancient than the Tibetan species of wolf, then the former can't be a "type" of the latter.

Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 08-27-2015

Moral behavior in animals - Frans de waal

Quote:What happens when two monkeys are paid unequally? Fairness, reciprocity, empathy, cooperation — caring about the well-being of others seems like a very human trait. But Frans de Waal shares some surprising videos of behavioral tests, on primates and other mammals, that show how many of these moral traits all of us share.

Quote:Frans de Waal: Primatologist

Frans de Waal studies primate social behavior — how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate. Full bio

The video is also at:



Quote:I was born in Den Bosch, where the painter Hieronymus Bosch named himself after. And so I've always been very fond of this painter who lived and worked in the 15th century. And what is interesting about him in relation to morality is that he lived at a time where religion's influence was waning, and he was sort of wondering, I think, what would happen with society if there was no religion or if there was less religion. And so he painted this famous painting, "The Garden of Earthly Delights," which some have interpreted as being humanity before the Fall, or being humanity without any Fall at all. And so it makes you wonder, what would happen if we hadn't tasted the fruit of knowledge, so to speak, and what kind of morality would we have?


Much later, as a student, I went to a very different garden, a zoological garden in Arnhem where we keep chimpanzees. This is me at an early age with a baby chimpanzee. (Laughter) And I discovered there that the chimpanzees are very power hungry and wrote a book about it. And at that time the focus in a lot of animal research was on aggression and competition. I painted a whole picture of the animal kingdom, and humanity included, was that deep down we are competitors, we are aggressive, we're all out for our own profit basically. This is the launch of my book. I'm not sure how well the chimpanzees read it, but they surely seemed interested in the book.


Now in the process of doing all this work on power and dominance and aggression and so on, I discovered that chimpanzees reconcile after fights. And so what you see here is two males who have had a fight. They ended up in a tree, and one of them holds out a hand to the other. And about a second after I took the picture, they came together in the fork of the tree and they kissed and embraced each other.


Now this is very interesting because at the time everything was about competition and aggression, and so it wouldn't make any sense. The only thing that matters is that you win or that you lose. But why would you reconcile after a fight? That doesn't make any sense. This is the way bonobos do it. Bonobos do everything with sex. And so they also reconcile with sex. But the principle is exactly the same. The principle is that you have a valuable relationship that is damaged by conflict, so you need to do something about it. So my whole picture of the animal kingdom, and including humans also, started to change at that time.


So we have this image in political science, economics, the humanities, philosophy for that matter, that man is a wolf to man. And so deep down our nature's actually nasty. I think it's a very unfair image for the wolf. The wolf is, after all, a very cooperative animal. And that's why many of you have a dog at home, which has all these characteristics also. And it's really unfair to humanity, because humanity is actually much more cooperative and empathic than given credit for. So I started getting interested in those issues and studying that in other animals.


So these are the pillars of morality. If you ask anyone, "What is morality based on?" these are the two factors that always come out. One is reciprocity, and associated with it is a sense of justice and a sense of fairness. And the other one is empathy and compassion. And human morality is more than this, but if you would remove these two pillars, there would be not much remaining I think. And so they're absolutely essential.


So let me give you a few examples here. This is a very old video from the Yerkes Primate Center where they train chimpanzees to cooperate. ["1937"] So this is already about a hundred years ago that we were doing experiments on cooperation. What you have here is two young chimpanzees who have a box, and the box is too heavy for one chimp to pull in. And of course, there's food on the box. Otherwise they wouldn't be pulling so hard. And so they're bringing in the box. And you can see that they're synchronized. You can see that they work together, they pull at the same moment. It's already a big advance over many other animals who wouldn't be able to do that. And now you're going to get a more interesting picture, because now one of the two chimps has been fed. So one of the two is not really interested in the task anymore. (Laughter) (Laughter) (Laughter) [" -- and sometimes appears to convey its wishes and meanings by gestures."] Now look at what happens at the very end of this. (Laughter) He takes basically everything.




So there are two interesting parts about this. One is that the chimp on the right has a full understanding he needs the partner -- so a full understanding of the need for cooperation. The second one is that the partner is willing to work even though he's not interested in the food. Why would that be? Well that probably has to do with reciprocity. There's actually a lot of evidence in primates and other animals that they return favors. So he will get a return favor at some point in the future. And so that's how this all operates.


We do the same task with elephants. Now with elephants, it's very dangerous to work with elephants. Another problem with elephants is that you cannot make an apparatus that is too heavy for a single elephant. Now you can probably make it, but it's going to be a pretty flimsy apparatus I think. And so what we did in that case -- we do these studies in Thailand for Josh Plotnik -- is we have an apparatus around which there is a rope, a single rope. And if you pull on this side of the rope, the rope disappears on the other side. So two elephants need to pick it up at exactly the same time and pull. Otherwise nothing is going to happen and the rope disappears.


And the first tape you're going to see is two elephants who are released together arrive at the apparatus. The apparatus is on the left with food on it. And so they come together, they arrive together, they pick it up together and they pull together. So it's actually fairly simple for them. There they are. And so that's how they bring it in. But now we're going to make it more difficult. Because the whole purpose of this experiment is to see how well they understand cooperation. Do they understand that as well as the chimps, for example?


And so what we do in the next step is we release one elephant before the other, and that elephant needs to be smart enough to stay there and wait and not pull at the rope -- because if he pulls at the rope, it disappears and the whole test is over. Now this elephant does something illegal that we did not teach it. But it shows the understanding that he has, because he puts his big foot on the rope, stands on the rope and waits there for the other, and then the other is going to do all the work for him. So it's what we call freeloading. (Laughter) But it shows the intelligence that the elephants have. They develop several of these alternative techniques that we did not approve of necessarily. So the other elephant is now coming and is going to pull it in. Now look at the other. The other doesn't forget to eat, of course. (Laughter) This was the cooperation, reciprocity part.


Now something on empathy. Empathy is my main topic at the moment of research. And empathy has sort of two qualities. One is the understanding part of it. This is just a regular definition: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. And the emotional part. And so empathy has basically two channels.


One is the body channel. If you talk with a sad person, you're going to adopt a sad expression and a sad posture, and before you know it you feel sad. And that's sort of the body channel of emotional empathy, which many animals have. Your average dog has that also. That's actually why people keep mammals in the home and not turtles or snakes or something like that who don't have that kind of empathy. And then there's a cognitive channel, which is more that you can take the perspective of somebody else. And that's more limited. There's few animals -- I think elephants and apes can do that kind of thing -- but there are very few animals who can do that.


So synchronization, which is part of that whole empathy mechanism is a very old one in the animal kingdom. And in humans, of course, we can study that with yawn contagion. Humans yawn when others yawn. And it's related to empathy. It activates the same areas in the brain. Also, we know that people who have a lot of yawn contagion are highly empathic. People who have problems with empathy, such as autistic children, they don't have yawn contagion. So it is connected.


And we study that in our chimpanzees by presenting them with an animated head. So that's what you see on the upper-left, an animated head that yawns. And there's a chimpanzee watching, an actual real chimpanzee watching a computer screen on which we play these animations. (Laughter) So yawn contagion that you're probably all familiar with -- and maybe you're going to start yawning soon now -- is something that we share with other animals. And that's related to that whole body channel of synchronization that underlies empathy and that is universal in the mammals basically.


Now we also study more complex expressions. This is consolation. This is a male chimpanzee who has lost a fight and he's screaming, and a juvenile comes over and puts an arm around him and calms him down. That's consolation. It's very similar to human consolation. And consolation behavior, it's empathy driven. Actually the way to study empathy in human children is to instruct a family member to act distressed, and then they see what young children do. And so it is related to empathy, and that's the kind of expressions we look at.


We also recently published an experiment you may have heard about. It's on altruism and chimpanzees where the question is, do chimpanzees care about the welfare of somebody else? And for decades it had been assumed that only humans can do that, that only humans worry about the welfare of somebody else. Now we did a very simple experiment. We do that on chimpanzees that live in Lawrenceville, in the field station of Yerkes. And so that's how they live. And we call them into a room and do experiments with them. In this case, we put two chimpanzees side-by-side. and one has a bucket full of tokens, and the tokens have different meanings. One kind of token feeds only the partner who chooses, the other one feeds both of them.


So this is a study we did with Vicky Horner. And here you have the two color tokens. So they have a whole bucket full of them. And they have to pick one of the two colors. You will see how that goes. So if this chimp makes the selfish choice, which is the red token in this case, he needs to give it to us. So we pick it up, we put it on a table where there's two food rewards, but in this case only the one on the right gets food. The one on the left walks away because she knows already. that this is not a good test for her. Then the next one is the pro-social token.


So the one who makes the choices -- that's the interesting part here -- for the one who makes the choices, it doesn't really matter. So she gives us now a pro-social token and both chimps get fed. So the one who makes the choices always gets a reward. So it doesn't matter whatsoever. And she should actually be choosing blindly. But what we find is that they prefer the pro-social token. So this is the 50 percent line that's the random expectation. And especially if the partner draws attention to itself, they choose more.


And if the partner puts pressure on them -- so if the partner starts spitting water and intimidating them -- then the choices go down. It's as if they're saying, "If you're not behaving, I'm not going to be pro-social today." And this is what happens without a partner, when there's no partner sitting there. And so we found that the chimpanzees do care about the well-being of somebody else -- especially, these are other members of their own group.


So the final experiment that I want to mention to you is our fairness study. And so this became a very famous study. And there's now many more, because after we did this about 10 years ago, it became very well known. And we did that originally with capuchin monkeys. And I'm going to show you the first experiment that we did. It has now been done with dogs and with birds and with chimpanzees. But with Sarah Brosnan we started out with capuchin monkeys.


So what we did is we put two capuchin monkeys side-by-side. Again, these animals, they live in a group, they know each other. We take them out of the group, put them in a test chamber. And there's a very simple task that they need to do. And if you give both of them cucumber for the task, the two monkeys side-by-side, they're perfectly willing to do this 25 times in a row. So cucumber, even though it's only really water in my opinion, but cucumber is perfectly fine for them. Now if you give the partner grapes -- the food preferences of my capuchin monkeys correspond exactly with the prices in the supermarket -- and so if you give them grapes -- it's a far better food -- then you create inequity between them. So that's the experiment we did.


Recently we videotaped it with new monkeys who'd never done the task, thinking that maybe they would have a stronger reaction, and that turned out to be right. The one on the left is the monkey who gets cucumber. The one on the right is the one who gets grapes. The one who gets cucumber, note that the first piece of cucumber is perfectly fine. The first piece she eats. Then she sees the other one getting grape, and you will see what happens. So she gives a rock to us. That's the task. And we give her a piece of cucumber and she eats it. The other one needs to give a rock to us. And that's what she does. And she gets a grape and she eats it. The other one sees that. She gives a rock to us now, gets, again, cucumber. (Laughter) She tests a rock now against the wall. She needs to give it to us. And she gets cucumber again. (Laughter) So this is basically the Wall Street protest that you see here.






Let me tell you -- I still have two minutes left, let me tell you a funny story about this. This study became very famous and we got a lot of comments, especially anthropologists, economists, philosophers. They didn't like this at all. Because they had decided in their minds, I believe, that fairness is a very complex issue and that animals cannot have it. And so one philosopher even wrote us that it was impossible that monkeys had a sense of fairness because fairness was invented during the French Revolution. (Laughter)

:BAHAHAHAHAHAHAH: Oh the utter loon. There are people that draw such crazy conclusions you know.


Now another one wrote a whole chapter saying that he would believe it had something to do with fairness if the one who got grapes would refuse the grapes. Now the funny thing is that Sarah Brosnan, who's been doing this with chimpanzees, had a couple of combinations of chimpanzees where, indeed, the one who would get the grape would refuse the grape until the other guy also got a grape. So we're getting very close to the human sense of fairness. And I think philosophers need to rethink their philosophy for awhile.


So let me summarize. I believe there's an evolved morality. I think morality is much more than what I've been talking about, but it would be impossible without these ingredients that we find in other primates, which are empathy and consolation, pro-social tendencies and reciprocity and a sense of fairness. And so we work on these particular issues to see if we can create a morality from the bottom up, so to speak, without necessarily God and religion involved, and to see how we can get to an evolved morality.


And I thank you for your attention.



All my "ethics" and "morality" are just as heathen as that of my heathen fellows: the other animals (in this case other mammals).

Conclusion: Morality comes from heathenism.

In contrast, genocide for the purposes of furthering ideology (aka "convert-or-kill") comes from missionary religions, especially the monogawdism, notable the christoclass mindvirus.

Must watch video though. Capuchin monkey getting irate over receiving a cucumber for doing the same work for which the other capuchin got grapes is Priceless. That's where my sense of fairness is from. Didn't need humanity to "first evolve" it.

So the score:

- the foundations of morality are not invented/innovated by humanity after all

- tools: not unique to humanity either. And, as part of that, fashioning weapons is not unique to humanity either. E.g. the example of IIRC chimpanzees fashioning sticks with a dangerously pointy side to hunt and kill bushbabies with.

- creativity: making art, including artworks representing own species (or a beautiful specimen of it), is not unique to humans. E.g. elephants like to make not only landscape paintings, but paintings of other elephants. He-elephants have been known to paint beautiful she-elephants (so said the video description) carrying flowers. Not to mention that they're better artists than I am.

So, what's left to set humanity apart? Hmmmm. Well, there's always the record of largest unmitigated parasite on the planet... But I don't think it comes across as all that complimentary for that to be humanity's defining trait.

Oh wait there's language to set us apart. Then again, many biologists of sea mammals swear that dolphins and IIRC some whales have their own languages. Hmmm. Quick someone, declare the characteristically human quality to be "grammar". In other words: quibbling over the remnants that can set us apart at last. There must be something that justifies humanity's superiority - I mean, the babble declared it so, therefore it must be true. <- Mono-moronism.

Vegetarian Discussion - Husky - 03-11-2016

The otter is also native to the subcontinent. The Hindoo otter occurs all across the north and in the south of Bharatam and in Sri Lanka.

It's called the "Eurasian otter" but - like "Eurasian" genes are magically declared "European" genes - the Eurasian otter is called the "European otter" too.

(map of distribution.)

Pre-emptively: it did not, in fact, arrive with any "oryan" invasion.