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+--- Thread: What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 (/showthread.php?tid=539)
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - acharya - 11-14-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+Nov 13 2009, 03:09 PM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Nov 13 2009, 03:09 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Nov 14 2009, 08:18 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ramana @ Nov 14 2009, 08:18 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me ask in a different way? Is the genome of Jewish people already mapped?
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Yes
On the Y side, they mostly carry the J chromosome
They are mostly arabs
The Ashkenazi are a 50% - 50% split between arabs and greeks
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We want a complete answer just like the ANI and ASI
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 11-14-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-acharya+Nov 14 2009, 09:17 AM-->QUOTE(acharya @ Nov 14 2009, 09:17 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+Nov 13 2009, 03:09 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Nov 13 2009, 03:09 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Nov 14 2009, 08:18 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ramana @ Nov 14 2009, 08:18 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me ask in a different way? Is the genome of Jewish people already mapped?
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Yes
On the Y side, they mostly carry the J chromosome
They are mostly arabs
The Ashkenazi are a 50% - 50% split between arabs and greeks
[right][snapback]102530[/snapback][/right]
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We want a complete answer just like the ANI and ASI
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Go to Dienekes website and ask
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-14-2009
Dienekes is a known charlatan; plus he links to steve sailer (a white supremacist).
There is a connection of Jews to India, i doubt it can be resolved specifically to Andhra, rather to eastern coast of India:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Jews (Some Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe were confirmed as R2, and are found on ysearch.
Moreover, various studies have shown some samples of Jewish men as being âHaplogroup P*â, but these
samples were never tested for the M207 and M124 downstream markers, meaning they could be R2)
⢠Arabs (Possibility of R2 presence, but needs to be studied further)
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What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - HareKrishna - 11-14-2009
Ashkenazi jews have 66% J and E, 5% Q and the rest 29% R and G
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 11-14-2009
Interestingly the R1A1 Y marker is about
60% in brahmins, 50% in slavs, 15% in western europe
but in the transition zone, of Afghanistan and Iran, it is only 25%
In Iran and Afghanistan, 60% have J2
Also in the Mittani texts, the language is pure sanskrit, no hint of Avestan
And the Mittani are in Syria, the other side of Iran
There is also no R1A1 among the greeks and italians
Meaning Avestan, Greek and Latin are not descended from R1A1 directly but more likely through a small elite newcomers
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - HareKrishna - 11-15-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+Nov 14 2009, 10:58 PM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Nov 14 2009, 10:58 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Interestingly the R1A1 Y marker is about
60% in brahmins, 50% in slavs, 15% in western europe
but in the transition zone, of Afghanistan and Iran, it is only 25%
In Iran and Afghanistan, 60% have J2
Also in the Mittani texts, the language is pure sanskrit, no hint of Avestan
And the Mittani are in Syria, the other side of Iran
There is also no R1A1 among the greeks and italians
Meaning Avestan, Greek and Latin are not descended from R1A1 directly but more likely through a small elite newcomers
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If R1a spread from India 12000 years ago in Europe doesnt matter what percent afgans have.Anyway Tadjiks and surroundings have the highest percentage of R1a for any country.The route for R1a seem it was more to north.
J2 spread mostly whit Kurdistan farmers as this haplotype correspond whit archeological painted pottery and figurines .
This farmers spread wheat farming,wheat being the main crop of harappans .This wheat J2 farmers,which made 12% of indian genes,spread not only in Indus but also go on western coast up to Maharastra and Karnataka by 3500BC.
A less impact, of only 4%, was made by rice farmers from South-east Asia who spread from Assam to Uttar Pradesh .
Meanwhile 73 harappan era burials unearthed near Delhi only good for dna testing;will se how much R1a they have.
http://newshopper.sulekha.com/topic//buria...-near-delhi.htm
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - acharya - 11-15-2009
this is good
plz continue
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-15-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+Nov 14 2009, 10:58 PM-->QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Nov 14 2009, 10:58 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Also in the Mittani texts, the language is pure sanskrit, no hint of Avestan
And the Mittani are in Syria, the other side of Iran
There is also no R1A1 among the greeks and italians
Meaning Avestan, Greek and Latin are not descended from R1A1 directly but more likely through a small elite newcomers
[right][snapback]102538[/snapback][/right]
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Kurdistan is a major outpost of Indic R2 and L (also in Armenia). This probably correlates with Indic Mittani. An Indic contribution in the "Jewish" is probably related.
I think Italo-Celtic spread with r1b out of C Asia taking a more southern route through Anatolia (contra Talageri) or, alternatively, hugging the Black Sea northern coast. See the R1b map. R1a1 out of India correlates with Germanic (locus is Poland per Underhill 2009). Slavic is a later expansion along with main body of Iranians out of Gandhara, but may even be with the initial out-of-India R1a1 expansion.
J2 spread is pre-neolithic.
At any rate, it is all over for the grand theory.
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-15-2009
Haplogroup L
Syria 31.0% of Eastern Syrians
Geographical Structure of the Y-chromosomal Genetic Landscape of the Levant: A coastal-inland contrast, Mirvat El-Sibai et al. 2009
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-15-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->DMXX
May I remind you that various subclades of R1b are currently all found in Central Asia, the intermediate area between the zone of land you specified in your post ("from Germany to Mongolia"). Whether some of these R1b subclades are representative of the region's ancient inhabitants or not is unknown.
..
..What happened to the apparent high diversity of R1a1 above the Black Sea in Ukraine? The recent study on R1a1 by Underhill et al. has shown this region was one of the later regions to fall under the subclade's (ultimate) expansion from South Asia; the same applies with the supposed "great age" of R1a1 in the Balkans, which I remember you were a proponent of not so long ago. <b>How about the now-abandoned connection between haplogroup R1b and the Cro-Magnons? Recent work by enthusiasts (such as vineviz) had shown a SE-to-NW gradient in R1b1b2's diversity, cutting that theory down from the knees. </b>Yet, herein lies proof of a Slavic expansion from East Europe, together with a DNA trail that fits our existing knowledge; a fine example of DNA's power, and it's ability to prove (in this case) previous hypotheses.
You are correct in echoing the words of so many previous posters here; ancient DNA will resolve, correct and contribute to what we know. I can only foresee more pet theories being shotgunned into oblivion by hard science. And I look forward to it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 11-15-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Nov 15 2009, 03:20 AM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Nov 15 2009, 03:20 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-G.Subramaniam+Nov 14 2009, 10:58 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(G.Subramaniam @ Nov 14 2009, 10:58 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Also in the Mittani texts, the language is pure sanskrit, no hint of Avestan
And the Mittani are in Syria, the other side of Iran
There is also no R1A1 among the greeks and italians
Meaning Avestan, Greek and Latin are not descended from R1A1 directly but more likely through a small elite newcomers
[right][snapback]102538[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kurdistan is a major outpost of Indic R2 and L (also in Armenia). This probably correlates with Indic Mittani. An Indic contribution in the "Jewish" is probably related.
I think Italo-Celtic spread with r1b out of C Asia taking a more southern route through Anatolia (contra Talageri) or, alternatively, hugging the Black Sea northern coast. See the R1b map. R1a1 out of India correlates with Germanic (locus is Poland per Underhill 2009). Slavic is a later expansion along with main body of Iranians out of Gandhara, but may even be with the initial out-of-India R1a1 expansion.
J2 spread is pre-neolithic.
At any rate, it is all over for the grand theory.
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What exactly is the grand theory ?
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-15-2009
AIT/AMT
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 11-15-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Nov 15 2009, 06:31 AM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Nov 15 2009, 06:31 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->AIT/AMT
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Can you give me some links to the DNA forums ?
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-15-2009
deleted
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - ramana - 11-16-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+Nov 14 2009, 04:34 PM-->QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Nov 14 2009, 04:34 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ashkenazi jews have 66% J and E, 5% Q and the rest 29% R and G
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What about the non-Ashkenazis Jews?
Also folks can we have map with the genetic evidence and language evidence superimposed?
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 11-16-2009
Dhu,
How old is Chenchu R1A1
How old is R1B ( western europe ) and does it have a Y DNA source in India
How old is R1, and where is its origin
How old is R and where is its origin
Through which steps is R descended from M168, the out of Africa Y Adam
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 11-16-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Nov 16 2009, 12:24 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Nov 16 2009, 12:24 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+Nov 14 2009, 04:34 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Nov 14 2009, 04:34 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ashkenazi jews have 66% J and E, 5% Q and the rest 29% R and G
[right][snapback]102537[/snapback][/right]
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What about the non-Ashkenazis Jews?
Also folks can we have map with the genetic evidence and language evidence superimposed?
[right][snapback]102566[/snapback][/right]
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http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiversio...hp/t206900.html
has a map of R1A1, with 2 focii,
North India and Ukraine
Underhill has shown that North India is the older
The European language closest to Sanskrit is Lithuanian ( balto-slavic )
and we do have evidence that the pre-xtian religion of Russia was Hinduism
( Vishnu idols )
So there is strong evidence of Indo-Slavic genetic and Linguistic common origin
Also, in dienekes website, I saw a table showing that North Indians linked very closely to Russians and Iranians and Russians despite their white skin had a significant DNA divergence ( this is total DNA not Y alone ) with west europeans
In 20K years an african can morph skin color to swede and 8K years is more than enough for a Punjabi to morph into a Russian
I have also read theories that R1A1 is associated with Lactose tolerance for adults
and drinking milk is 4 times more efficient than beef eating and could have led to a population explosion of R1A1
So there is sort of crude evidence for an proto-Indo-Slavic race and proto-Indo-Slavic language, rooted in Punjab
Western Europe has R1B, and Greeks and Italians seem to have J2
So these regions probably received some elite invaders who imposed their language on them
Sort of similar to how in Nepal and North east India, mongoloid peoples speak sanskritic languages
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 11-16-2009
Understanding Avestan
Iran has J2 mostly and its R1A1 is on its eastern borders
The Mittani on the west side of Iran had pure sanskrit 1500 BC
This sort of implies that the Iranians got their 'Aryan' languages from Balkh and Afghanistan and do not really much common ancestry with north India
And Avestan is probably very recent, more like 1000BC
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-16-2009
GS,
Do not fall for Anatole Klosyov's young age for Chenchu r1a1 line. He is another joker. Underhill has known about S Asian origin of the R clan for a long time and has been sitting on the data. In fact, he apprised Witzel of R's origin in S Asia during a so-called harvard roundatable and Witzel had to subsequently cut back on his herrenvolk propagandeering. Underhill, Metspalu, Kivisild, Semino, Chaubey, Singh, Battaglia, Mehdi, Thangaraj, Majumder, Villems, Rootsi, and Sengupta are the authors of this 2009 paper; these are not lightweights like Kloysyov.
The easiest thing is to trace the operational constraints of Spencer's eurocentric model for the R clan. Spencer Wells (natgeo genographic project) has K devolve into P in C Asia and then further devolve into R1 (173) which penetrates into Europe from C Asia (and in europe gives rise to R1b in situ). Then M17 makes an 180' turn back into C Asia and further into S Asia. The first constraint is: why not have P directly in Europe (Russia/E. Eur); why is there this caveat for a huge C Asian "detour" in the first place?? The answer is because no one will fall for P as original to Europe since there is no evidence for it. To maintain a haplogroup (as opposed to 'initate') in a stable (ie non-island) population is not difficult. Even then, there is no evidence for P (undefined R and Q) in Europe. The exception which proves the rule is P on the island of hvar in croatia; this is explained as an input from C Asian Avars precisely because it is so exceptional.
The second constraint is Q in NE Asia. unlike India, Europe does not have Q except for some herrenvolk E Siberians who intruded into one of the N europe islands. It has required island genetics to maintain this haplaogroup in Europe, which is nonetheless in a much derived form. In contrast India has basal Q as well as India-specific Q clades. This entire line of argumentation was not in Spencer's head when he dreamt up the C Asia route for K, but is nonetheless relevant.
Further...
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 11-16-2009
The basques are R1B and they are definitely non-Indo European
Most west euros are also R1B, meaning there was AIT into west Europe
The germanic aryans were speaking basques and had indo-european languages forced on them by elite replacement