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What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-23-2009

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I would tentatively suggest that the Yhrd percentages also indicate that the
likely penetration of Europe, by the original haplogroup, was northwards
<b>through Khazakstan from Pakistan,</b> and it entered Europe, through the "Ural
Gap", east of the Caspian Sea and west of the Urals, towards Kazan.

A.A. Foster on R1b<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-23-2009

Ice cap over Europe:

<img src='http://www.gsi.ie/NR/rdonlyres/33EE5A20-415D-4FEB-8443-120AA879B397/0/16IceAge.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Post-glacially, R enters from South Asia. N from Eastern Siberia.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 11-23-2009

Dhu, I think R1A1 in particular or R in general is associated with lactose tolerance and Indo-European languages

And J is associated with agriculture

Assuming that the brahmin caste has retained most of its Y genes
About 50% have R1A1, and about 20% have J2A

Does J originate in India

Also Kivilsid wrote that Agriculture started in Punjab does he refer to the J gene

There is also a H group in India and an isolated H in central europe
is this the gypsy marker?




What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 11-23-2009

<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Nov 23 2009, 04:36 AM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Nov 23 2009, 04:36 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ice cap over Europe:

<img src='http://www.gsi.ie/NR/rdonlyres/33EE5A20-415D-4FEB-8443-120AA879B397/0/16IceAge.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Post-glacially, R enters from South Asia.  N from Eastern Siberia.
[right][snapback]102726[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

At how many years ago

20k years ago ??


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-23-2009

hg3 = R
hg9 = J

the Last Glacial Maximum (ca. 25,000-13,000 years before the present)link. 20K is the usual figure but some time needs to be given for winding down.

basically, the entire genetic landscape of europe would have been 'traumatized'. this would have been true elsewhere as well, but nothing equivalent to europe; the ice sheet (ntm the steppe tundra) is most prolific in Europe (East Siberia is actually free of the ice sheet and thus could send over N when the opportunity presented). R is too recent and its locus too eastern to have been in europe prior to the last glaciation. To even get in before the last glaciation would have meant a timedate of millenia before 20K. In the pre

We know the movement of R from the east is a fact; finding the exact reason is just secondary. It can very well be husbandry as you mentioned. The euros nonsensically argue for paleo R1b while trying to push the r1a1 date later around 2000 BC due to the 'recent PIE' and AIT dogma. Vinaash kaale. In the future, we will see that ME haplos like J get recruited into the euro IE ummah and all the steppe crusaders will suddenly become chotta renfrews and semitic will be IE'd .

I believe there are 'geostructural' imperatives why europe is situated at the sink end of an overwhelming East to west migration pattern and gradient. Nichols points out that IE, Iranian, Turkic, and Mongolian all spread in similar fashion from the East. Sometimes, the gypsy route through ME is taken, sometime C Asian steppe route. Usually there are components of both.

Gray and Atkinson (same ones who have an eagerly embraced PIE in Anatolia article) have determined that India was a major population center harboring 60% of humanity in prehistory link. IJ, G are the only real candidate lines for paleo colonization of the ME; they must have started out from near the Hindu Kush after wintering there in the period from 80K -50K; 50/55K is the settlement of ME; E Europe- 45K; W Europe gets settled only at 33K; and there is a very clear interface between neanders and AMH in Europe, with the Neanders retreating. AMH was probably hemmed in Interior Asia by Neanders in C Asia, ME, And Europe, until the advent of UP. Late settlement of ME/Europe is quite sensible when we consider that E Siberia was similarly settled from the South; in fact Southern route had allowed E Siberia to be settled earlier. There is some oceanic current which warms europe otherwise its geographical position is similar to E Siberia. Geographically and historically, it is a culdesac (witzel's term for India).

Image Search for Indian albinos; there was definitely a dark "caucasoid" predecessor for the euros, they didn't spontaneously regenerate from the steppe tundra, lo and behold there is a 1.5 billion dark caucasoid powerhouse strategically located in the center of Eurasia harboring both F and C in abundance; there are four or so F lines from the root in india; only H has been given a letter designation. You will actually hear some dismiss india as a progenitor for later lines because of the abundance of F. It is like saying that grandfather and son cannot be in same room.

J is Kurdistan (iraqi-persian) and preneolithic; I will try to dig up the references.

H is gypsy when it is found in those populations. It can be Sindoi, mittani, Kassite, as well. L is in Druze. R2 and L in Caucasus and Kurdistan, where indic kingdoms were set up. Recently someone tried to tie H in Ukraine to aryan invasion until reminded of the gypsy connection. Sindoi were in Pontoc steppe and were referred as an "Indian people"

R is not even being discussed now. They are suddenly uninterested and all the talk is about "clusters", russian cluster, polish cluster, greek cluster. Jones cluster, "Simpson cluster"....

IE is simply a gypsy migration which became acclimatized.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 11-23-2009

Dhu, H and L are Indian rooted ?
I remember seeing a high amount of L in south India

Grandmother Africa - Mother India

Neanders have been found in Afghanistan and Mongolia until about 55K
and that confined AMH to India and South east asia

From 50K to 20K, hardly any AMH were out of India


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-23-2009

Yes H and L are Indian.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 11-23-2009

Can you give a date for when R1B and R1A left India

My guess for R1B is 15K years ago
because the basques are mainly R1B and dont speak Indo-European
But then who killed off the Euro Neanders ?

whereas R1A is probably 8K years old, and spoke indo-euro
I dont think languages can be traced to over 8K years





What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-23-2009

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lvVZ6C97yUo/SvLy...031c024012f.jpg

R1a1 appears to be 11K (9000 BCE). R1b would have been slightly before (16K?) and probably represents Celtic-Italic-Germanic.

Basque along with lemnian, pelasgian, etc.. would be the paleo languages of europe and would correspond with paleogroup I. R1b is not the initial paleo settlement, it is a phylogenetically later group.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-23-2009

This is an African feature which is found in New Guinea- implies that this feature has been preserved from the initial southern route.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labial-velar_consonant

Truly doubly articulated labial-velars occur as plosives and nasal stops in the majority of languages in <b>West and Central Africa, </b>and are relatively common in the <b>eastern end of New Guinea. </b>They include <b>[k͡p, ɡ͡b, ŋ͡m].</b> The Yélî Dnye language of Rossel Island, Papua New Guinea, has both labial-velars and labial-alveolar consonants. Labial velar unvoiced plosives and nasals also occur in Vietnamese, albeit only at the end of words.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 11-23-2009

<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Nov 23 2009, 11:13 AM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Nov 23 2009, 11:13 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lvVZ6C97yUo/SvLy...031c024012f.jpg

R1a1 appears to be 11K (9000 BCE).  R1b would have been slightly before (16K?) and probably represents Celtic-Italic-Germanic. 

Basque along with lemnian, pelasgian, etc.. would be the paleo languages of europe and would correspond with paleogroup I.  R1b is not the initial paleo settlement, it is a phylogenetically later group.
[right][snapback]102735[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Basque language is a paleo language of Europe

But Basques are geneticaly 70% R1B - speak non-Indo Euro
Irish, English - 70% R1B - speak Indo-Euro

Meaning the native language of R1B is non-Indo-Euro
and Indo-Euro was carried by R1A
and R1B languages got elite replaced, sort of AIT in reverse


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-23-2009

Ok. Slavic was probably carried by a few stragglers to the main expansion of italic-celtic-germanic. The key thing is that nichols model proposes expansion and R1a1 is similarly an expansion phenomenon. Concentric yet discrete migrations in every which direction is not the model, correlated with j here, R there as needed in ad hoc way,

To their credit, the Frawley/Rajaram group proposed the impetus of a post ice age expansion long before any of this became mainstream. Quite fearless.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-23-2009

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Spr...omo_sapiens.jpg

Above is a mainstream image, made without an (overt) AIT agenda (which animates a greater part of academia than usually recognized). Few things to note:

-100K for Levant with only a 40K entry into Europe. Seems very incongruous. Actually the Skhul migration during an earlier interstadial (versus the 85K OOA event) is recognized as a dead end; it did not contribute to modern populations. The 40K into europe is from S Asia viw ME. The genetics supports this.

another mainstream image:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...D-World-Map.GIF

see the haplo F in South India. F is the progenitor line for the vast majority of eurasians. Its singular presence in India is an indirect measure for variance across F as a whole. So we have here genetic evidence for the southern route using completely mainstream evidence.

Going back to first image. South Asia has earlier settlement (still underestimated) than europe. Even Aus has earlier settlement than europe. However, the E Siberian settlements are earlier than shown (IMO).

Also notice distribution of neanders in the image.

So as everyone can see, this is a "mainstream" view. You don't even need to go into the specialized literature. It is quite obvious.

Last is the fact that R is an asiatic and later process. This takes some work to confirm but is quite easy as well.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - HareKrishna - 11-24-2009

Can you have more about J2?
what J2 is neolithic(farming) and what is pre-neolithic(non-farming)?
how we figure out ?
India have about 14% J2 from Kurdistan.Is from farming spread or pre-farming?
what about Europe ?is J2(or E3b and G) from farming or pre-farming?


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - acharya - 11-25-2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfY1ISdABSw




What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-25-2009

<!--QuoteBegin-acharya+Nov 25 2009, 08:44 AM-->QUOTE(acharya @ Nov 25 2009, 08:44 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfY1ISdABSw<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So, during the initial stages of the Enlightenment, Voltaire had proposed that India was the Homeland for europeans, because China could not fulfill such a role "for obvious reasons" (Elst). The initial intuition of India as hoary homeland was reversed with the formulation of AIT by Mueller for the british colonizer, but which unexpectedly led to German ascendancy and unification. Per N.S. Rajaram, the Colonizer saw the unifying power of this "Aryan" theory and further sought to prevent the same from being applied in India.

Now Americans seem to be furthering a similar game with a few Chinese sepoys in tow..

The antagonism of certain Chinese sepoys to India is all the more surprising given SE Asian affinity to India. They seem to have no understanding that heathens worldwide have had sepoys proxying for the colonizer; india is not exceptional in its current sepoy state, nor is china immune to a sepoy state. neither does the existence of a few nehrus and manmohans entail civilizational decadence. There are a few Indian equivalents to these chinese characters as well... This state of affairs prevents asian consolidation.

I feel that the Western response has been permanently sidelined and that the next challenge will emerge not from the indian sepoy, but from E Asian sepoys.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - ramana - 12-08-2009

Dhu Try to get hold of this book.





Michael H. Hart "Understanding Human History: An Analysis Including the Effects of Geography and Differential Evolution"

Washington Summit Publishers | English | 2007-07-15 | ISBN: 1593680260 | 496 pages



Quote:Understanding Human History is a history of humanity, beginning about 100,000 years ago and going through the 20th century. It includes discussions of developments in every major area of the world. Unlike other books on world history, it explicitly discusses racial differences in intelligence, and explains how, why, and when they arose. The book also discusses the many consequences that those differences have had on human events, starting in prehistoric times and continuing to the present. The book includes an abundance of data and tables, together with sixteen maps, three tables, an extensive bibliography, and a thorough index.



What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - HareKrishna - 12-08-2009

[quote name='ramana' date='08 December 2009 - 11:45 AM' timestamp='1260252463' post='102832']

Dhu Try to get hold of this book.





Michael H. Hart "Understanding Human History: An Analysis Including the Effects of Geography and Differential Evolution"

Washington Summit Publishers | English | 2007-07-15 | ISBN: 1593680260 | 496 pages

[/quote]

seems this book is online for free

http://www.wspublishers.com/uhh.pdf



http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2007/11/30/download-understanding-human-history-for-free/



this guy also write The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History,A View from the Year 3000,Extra-Terrestrials, Where Are They?


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Husky - 12-08-2009

[quote name='ramana' date='08 December 2009 - 11:45 AM' timestamp='1260252463' post='102832']

Dhu Try to get hold of this book.





Michael H. Hart "Understanding Human History: An Analysis Including the Effects of Geography and Differential Evolution"

Washington Summit Publishers | English | 2007-07-15 | ISBN: 1593680260 | 496 pages

[/quote]Ramana was kidding I think. He would know the following 2 items and should have warned Dhu.

For those who don't know -





1. Hart is the chairman of some conference for the "Preserving Western Civilisation" site ...uh.... scene.

preservingwesternciv.com/about.html

Quote:About us

The chairman of the organizing committee for this conference is Dr. Michael H. Hart. As an undergraduate, Hart majored in mathematics; but he later earned a law degree, advanced degrees in physics and in computer science, and a Ph.D. in astronomy. Hart has written three books on history, various scientific papers, and controversial articles on various other subjects. His best known book is The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History. His most recent book is Understanding Human History, which is a history of humanity beginning about 100,000 years ago and going through the 20th century. Unlike most other books on world history, Hart’s book explicitly discusses differences in average intelligence between various groups, explains when and why they arose, and discusses the effect that those differences have had on human history.

Ya don't say.

Michael Hart: Astronomy, maths/physics/comp sci and law. Apparently all that makes him an instant expert in history, evolution and genetics. (I didn't even know that was possible.... I thought you could be good at somethings without automatically being an expert at everything else...)





2. But now comes the unexpected shocker of what the Preserving Western Civilisation troupe is all about. (Don't all Hart Infarct from the following revelation at the same time, 'kay?)



preservingwesternciv.com/purpose.html

Quote:Statement of Purpose:

(^ Makes a nice change that they start with an honest declaration of bias/motivation behind the convenient - predetermined - conclusions they were steering towards)



We believe that America’s Judeo-Christian heritage and European identity must be defended. Today, our glorious Western civilization is under assault from many directions. Three such threats will be discussed at this conference. First, the massive influx to the United States and Europe of Third-World immigrants who do not share our fundamental political and cultural values. Second, the threat from Islam, a militant ideology that is hostile to our society and, in principle, committed to destroying it. Third, because of the persistent disappointing performance of blacks (which many whites mistakenly blame on themselves) many whites have guilt feelings that undermine Western morale and deter us from dealing sensibly with the other threats.
But of course.



Just another Christo-Class-Racists Convention: thinly veiled arguments why christonazis should be top of the food chain and rule over the appointed untermenschen - the heathens who refuse to accept biblical hierarchy, including those that keep militating against it, such as the "blacks" (=the modern christo-secular terminology for Hamites; such uses of secularism is a christian method for first turning Africans' actual identity into Colour and then using that mindtrap to box them into biblical mythology and biblically-prescribed/prophesied behaviour models. It's so successful that many Amrican Africans repeat the christian accusation that "Black"/colour-identification/colour-pre-occupation is supposedly meant to be a constituent and even a prime ingredient in African identity. When all this trivialised and trivialising mis-identification has served is to rob them of trying to learn how their traditional ancestors understood themselves and looked at the world, and which has instead forced them into seeing themselves as christians see them/want them to regard themselves and others.)



Now one can be relieved as to its reliability: it's all so above board - so confessedly Babblical, so Curse of Ham. "Third worlders" don't assimilate into Amrikkka's christo "cultural" values, they're obviously subhuman. One can blindly trust the 'scientific' revelations by Hart which the Racist League eagerly endorse. (Which came first, their fantasy/Stated Purpose or his 'controversial' discoveries which they are trying to sell? Or was it merely a coincidental meeting that led to such happy flirtation.)



After all, nothing's more unquestionable and unassailable than Scholarly Racism And Superiorism (i.e. the usual christo-ideologically-motivated bigotry circulated by the jeebus-crowd and dubbed "science" after its blatant Biblical tag failed to sell it).





By the way, as for Hart's "The 100: A ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History", here's his #1.

His top n are listed on several sites, I think, but I'm pasting from Islamists 'R Us:

www.jamaat.net/hart/thetop100.html

Quote:1 MUHAMMAD

570-632



From the 100, a Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History

by Michael H. Hart



My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels.



[...]



It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. On the purely religious level, then, it seems likely that Muhammad has been as influential in human history as Jesus.



Furthermore, Muhammad (unlike Jesus) was a secular as well as a religious leader. In fact, as the driving force behind the Arab conquests, he may well rank as the most influential political leader of all time.

[...]

We see, then, that the Arab conquests of the seventh century have continued to play an important role in human history, down to the present day. It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.
Since I avoid reading bad fiction, I haven't read Hart's 100 myself to confirm the accuracy of jamaat's Hart quotes. Sadly, I'm not predisposed to doubt jamaat in his favour.





For a supposedly "Jewish" person, why would Hart be peddling "Judeo-Christian civilisation" nonsense? In all the times the two came into contact, the latter cannibalised the former (persecutions, live-burnings, pogroms, crusades, genocides - aka anti-Semitism).



And why is he going about advertising for jeebus, "santa" paul and mohammed the "secular"? (Note that while the jeebus character is factually more influential - zum Beispiel, ohne christianism gibt's keine moronism, I mean mohammedanism - jeebus also happens to be hypertastic fiction, so lack of historicity means jeebus itself can't count as "the most influential single figure in human history".)



But Hart is fronting a conference for the ChristoVirus Preservation League. And that league has listed islamism as some sort of threat to it in their statement of purpose. (Why, beats me. Islamism IS christianism.) So perhaps he wasn't actually being particularly complimentary in opinionating that the first jihadist was the World's Most Influential person(?)





And since when did christianism give rise to any civilisation? As the Hellenes said when the upstart christianism entered into view: what has christianism ever done? For an example, am reaching for an easy quote. Here's one from Emperor Julian's "Contra Galilaeos" (Against The Jeebus-Peddlers), where Rome's champion of the Olympic Gods addresses the destructive, utterly uncreative christoterrorists whose religion brought forth nothing:



Quote:Hellenic gifts: science, philosophy, mathematics, music, harmony



But has God granted to you (galilaeans, i.e. christists) to originate any science or any philosophical study? Why, what is it? For the theory of the heavenly bodies was perfected among the Hellenes, after the first observations had been made among the barbarians in Babylon. And the study of geometry took its rise in the measurement of the land in Egypt, and from this grew to its present importance. Arithmetic began with the Phoenician merchants, and among the Hellenes in course of time acquired the aspect of a regular science. These three the Hellenes combined with music into one science, for they connected astronomy with geometry and adapted arithmetic to both, and perceived the principle of harmony in it. Hence they laid down the rules for their music, since they had discovered for the laws of harmony with reference to the sense of hearing an agreement that was infallible, or something very near to it.

(Praises indeed be to the Great God Pan for his divine Pan flute. Sadly christists so utterly destroyed Hellenic music that when the composer for the technicolour spectacle "Ben Hur" was told to make a "Roman" sounding score, no one knew what Ancient - that is, Hellenic - Rome or Greece sounded like. He had no choice but to just make up a sound.

As an aside: GrecoRomans were able to trace the origins of geometry to as far as Egypt and astronomy to Babylon and arithmetic to Phoenicia? Hmmm.)




Need I tell over their names man by man, or under their professions? I mean, either the individual men, as for instance Plato, Socrates, Aristeides, Cimon, Thales, Lycurgus, Agesilaus, Archidamus,----or should I rather speak of the class of philosophers, of generals, of artificers, of lawgivers? For it will be found that even the most wicked and most brutal of the generals behaved more mildly to the greatest offenders than Moses did to those who had done no wrong. And now of what monarchy shall I report to you? Shall it be that of Perseus, or Aeacus, or Minos of Crete, who purified the sea of pirates, and expelled and drove out the barbarians as far as Syria and Sicily, advancing in both directions the frontiers of his realm, and ruled not only over the islands but also over the dwellers along the coasts? And dividing with his brother Rhadamanthus, not indeed the earth, but the care of mankind, he himself laid down the laws as he received them from Zeus, but left to Rhadamanthus to fill the part of judge. . .



(Etcetera. For more, refer to Julian et al)



Did I say christianism brought forth nothing? What an erreur! All-round Certain Death it brought. It murdered out GrecoRoman civilisation (e.g. Gibbon's Decline and Fall of Rome essentially concludes that christianism murdered the Hellenistic religio-cultural-political civilisation). When christianism installed itself, it was the death of everything. Education was systematically murdered out, bringing in the Dark Ages, to keep the ignorant superstitious christians in the perpetual Dark of christianism (i.e in ignorance). Am going to parrot this excellent summary again:

Quote:The Roman municipalities supplied free elementary instruction for the children of all workers. Anywhere you went, in a suburb of Rome or a small Italian town, you would see the teacher, in the porch of a house perhaps, teaching the children how to write on wax-faced tablets. Practically every Roman worker could read and write by the year 380 A.D., when Christianity began to have real power. By 480 nearly every school in the Empire was destroyed. By 580, and until 1780 at least, from ninety to ninety-five percent of the people of Europe were illiterate and densely ignorant. That is the undisputed historical record of Christianity as regards education.

-- The Story Of Religious Controversy, by Joseph McCabe
Not to forget that christianism accompanied all that/followed all that up with inquisitions, crusades, witch burnings, genocides, nazism, etc.



I suppose when the "Preserving The World's Christo-Occupation/Oppression" team says "christian civilisation" (somehow connecting that to "western" as if secular geography is to blame) it is merely a euphemism for the mass genocide of all that is truly worthy, truly civilised in humanity.

Christoclass mindvirus genocides all. And THAT has been its only bequest to humanity. They're merely arguing ad Babble for the oppression to continue.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - HareKrishna - 12-09-2009

In some parts of his book ,Michael Hart use obsolete genetic and archeological data.In few places he missuses data to prove his point.