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What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Guest - 02-07-2010

Since AIT existed before, and we are refuting it, wouldn't be nice if we can counter or have means to counter that too?


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 02-11-2010

Quote:They can't handle the truth. We'll see a lot more of this happening. DNA forums are very low in activity of late. Pretty soon they will be arguing about who belongs in which block of their neighborhood. Such is the way of misguided reductionism (albeit a very juvenile variety).



Quote:I see the trend of trivializing the pursuit already taking place. Like you've noticed - first it was frequency and now diversity doesn't matter anymore to them. 'Who cares about that, we're more interested in our unique haplogroup clusters' - I hear this very often,and - 'we might as well accept that we all came from Africa, we're not interested in South Asia'. I wonder why they're interested in DNA at all now! They might as well check out Botany Bay and Ellis island records and be content with that I say. Oh, and of course, let's not forget the whole unprovable argument of IE language origin - that's keeping them very very busy nowadays.



What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 02-13-2010

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lvVZ6C97yUo/S3Zf-O6hDmI/AAAAAAAAGL8/RilMPryPgbE/s1600-h/R+and+Subclades+on+FTDNA+Maps+-+1024.jpg



Basal R* is delimited to India. Enjoy.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 02-14-2010

[url="http://www.archaeology.org/1001/abstracts/stone_age_india.html"] Stone Age India [/url]

Archaeology 63:1



Quote:..

University of Oxford archaeologist Mike Petraglia sees an injustice there, which he and a diverse team of researchers from three continents are working to rectify. Specifically, they believe that India deserves a central place in our understanding of the Paleolithic. Their evidence suggests that modern humans arrived there rather early and thrived under some unusually grim conditions.

..



What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 02-16-2010

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_x6Y4ZgFsZdY/S3O6c-sDpZI/AAAAAAAAANw/L0Goy6k57nY/s1600-h/Y-DNA+Eurasia+OoA.jpg



The above diagram was drawn by a Basque fellow. Given the [url="http://www.gyllencreutz.se/img/LGM_Palaeolithic.gif"]known differential settlement[/url] of Europe compared to interior and tropical Asia, it is quite clear that IJ must have weathered a few tens of millenia in Baluchistan or whereabouts. For each minor haplo which spread west (G and T), there is a corresponding haplo with local spread in India (H and L). And the main body of Euro haplos are descended from a much later development in tropical Asia, namely P/R in Bengal, with its immediate correspondences in SEA.



Quote:I used color codes for the main lineages (blue for DE, orange for C and red for F). The pink line represents the main route of the Eurasian migration, the red arrows represent the main flows of F and K derived lineages, which are the most complex ones. The light red dotted ellipse represents the most likely urheimat of F, IJK and K, as well as other derived lineages such as H and P. For simplicity reasons I have not depicted the expansions of C and D, nor of P and NO.



What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - HareKrishna - 02-16-2010

[quote name='dhu' date='14 February 2010 - 10:20 AM' timestamp='1266122552' post='104199']

[url="http://http://www.archaeology.org/1001/abstracts/stone_age_india.html"] Stone Age India [/url]

Archaeology 63:1

[/quote]

the link doesn't work


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 02-16-2010

OK I have corrected it above.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 02-21-2010

[url="http://www.shikanda.net/ancient_models/witzel_oppenheimer_vanbinsbergen_pollock_hall_2007_.jpg"]Stephen Oppenheimer in the company of weasel.[/url] (image)


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Husky - 02-21-2010

[quote name='dhu' date='21 February 2010 - 06:21 AM' timestamp='1266713029' post='104408']

[url="http://www.shikanda.net/ancient_models/witzel_oppenheimer_vanbinsbergen_pollock_hall_2007_.jpg"]Stephen Oppenheimer in the company of weasel.[/url] (image)

[/quote]And he is in the company of witSSel... why? So the hybrid gang of weasels and fosa-foils are wanting to infiltrate and subvert what remains of actual science?

Are we to expect Oppenheimer to 180 soon?


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 02-21-2010

Absolutely. Weasel's smug wet look is definitely a result of his firm and unshakable, nay fixed, belief in Oppenheimer's imminent U-turn. According to my sources, Witzel offered Oppenheimer a few options:



1> Oppenheimer, yaar, let's get this straight. I understand you are unwilling to make a U-turn unlike the rest of your colleagues. But at least you can make a u-turn on paper, if not in real life. OK, look here.. [pulls out old pirate's map]. Here's a map of indo-eurasia. here is the fuhrer's germany and his birthplace austria, here is the hungarian plain, the holy danube bisecting the hungarian plain (hehe), and my good friend vlad's rumania. The ukraine is here and central asia here. I have sent an expedition into the Khanate to retreive the lost treasure of King Khan, which my subordinates date to the 4th century, an exquisite collection of KJo studded.. [clears voice and snaps heels].. but you do not need to know about that. Thank you for interrupting. Now... what i need for you to do is have M17 making a u-turn here and here. Just have the damn thing return to India. I'll get my stable boy Farmer to cook up another plausible scenario.. A horde of vile locusts swamped the expeditionary group forcing them to send a warning party to the homeland. This warning party then went rogue and killed off all their Austric ancestors and erased every trace of prior Austric existence in India. OK, I admit it's sorta unbelievable, but my stable boy is exceptionally good. His expertise has even been enlisted by the Divinity school. The Church..[clears phlegm].. I mean Divinity School.. calls our group "the scrubbers." Nifty title, ya? To be so designated by the Monotheists themselves, now that's an achievement.. OK. Now, all I need for you to do is sign alongside this u-turn [draws a u-turn on the map]. You can print a retraction in some obscure journal at a later time. My friends at Rediff will run with it in the meantime. Spencer gave a full interview to those rediff chums many years ago, but you don't need to go that far. You're happy, I'm happy. What do you say?



2> OK. Option two: I'll give you a post doc with one of my subordinates. Yes, I know it's a step down for you, but you'll enjoy the vodka bar in the teacher's lounge. [Oppenheimer interrupts and asks a polite question] Yes, yes.. We do need our alcohol when battling those evil hindoos from India. In fact, one of my students is doing his end-term research project on the increase in alcoholism among professional indologists over the past decade. He correlates the phenomenon to palatization trends in diaspora speech forms (a depressing topic for AIT'ers, in case you didn't know). Of course, he is ignorant of the real reason, but why should I tell him.



3> OK, yaar, I can see you're an upright one. This is my final offer.. I'll arrange a lecture tour of India if you go ahead with the U-turn. It's a very pleasurable experience, I can assure you.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - acharya - 02-23-2010

[quote name='Husky' date='21 February 2010 - 08:47 AM' timestamp='1266721779' post='104417']

And he is in the company of witSSel... why? So the hybrid gang of weasels and fosa-foils are wanting to infiltrate and subvert what remains of actual science?

Are we to expect Oppenheimer to 180 soon?

[/quote]

Who is that Indian?


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 02-23-2010

[quote name='acharya' date='23 February 2010 - 01:27 AM' timestamp='1266868170' post='104472']

Who is that Indian?

[/quote]





He is a Madagascar African. The Conference is to discuss Oppenheimer's personal research on SEA - post-Sunda expansion. Weazel is there probably to ingratiate himself and weazel around.



http://www.shikanda.net/ancient_models/edinburgh.htm



H. Yamadah (Japan),

Michel Razafiarivony (Madagascar)

Stephen Oppenheimer (United Kingdom)

Wim van Binsbergen (Netherlands)

Michael Witzel (United States)

Shi Yang (People's Republic China)


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - acharya - 02-23-2010

[quote name='dhu' date='23 February 2010 - 03:29 AM' timestamp='1266875509' post='104474']

He is a Madagascar African. The Conference is to discuss Oppenheimer's personal research on SEA - post-Sunda expansion. Weazel is there probably to ingratiate himself and weazel around.



http://www.shikanda.net/ancient_models/edinburgh.htm



H. Yamadah (Japan),

Michel Razafiarivony (Madagascar)

Stephen Oppenheimer (United Kingdom)

Wim van Binsbergen (Netherlands)

Michael Witzel (United States)

Shi Yang (People's Republic China)

[/quote]



Interesting!

India with one of the largest population is missing from this research team.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 02-23-2010

Look at the body language: the three westerners in the middle, flanked by a group of token nonwhites; but atleast everyone is smiling, except for weasel.



The Conference Proceedings are hosted on 'Shikhanda' run by Wim van Binsbergen (Netherlands). Apparently, he is "critically" supportive of the Black Athena theis, but has managed to come up with an exact opposite variant:



Quote:Relying on the recently discovered ‘Back-into-Africa’ migration from Central and West Asia from the Upper Palaeolithic times onward, and on recent reconstructions of the Upper Palaeolithic *Borean parent language, the present argument offers a powerful alternative for the Black Athena thesis: The Aegean region looks similar to Ancient Egypt, not primarily because of diffusion from Egypt in the Late Bronze Age, but because both were the recipients of a demic, linguistic and cultural movement from West (ultimately Central) Asia; and this movement also extended to sub-Saharan Africa, producing...



....However, while thus the argument has rather devastating implications for Afrocentrism including the Bernallian variant, it could not have been made without Bernal's visionary and path-breaking contribution. [color="#008080"][[very condescending]][/color] http://www.shikanda.net/afrocentrism/index.htm

[/quote]



Now there is some reason to suspect a back-to-africa migration from interior Asia (and also C Asia, but he seems to have excluded interior asia with the usual motives). This fellow seems to be surfing upon this research or rather hijacking for his own career.



Now, both these guys Binsbergen and Oppenheimer are sporting theses which posit an extreme Asian dynamism in prehistory compared to the west. Binsbergen may be a case of denying Africans a case by setting up an Asian foil (instead of a European one which is just not possible given the evidence). Oppenheimer of course is a genuine.



This is exactly the last place you would expect weasel to be cavorting around. Probably, Binsbergen is a western plant; Witzel knows this; and Witzel has requested Binsbergen to interface with Oppenheimer on the Sunda thesis so as to limit the horizon to Sunda (not India). Thus, no Indian in the panel, otherwise people would have asked: what about India? All the Asiatic regions are dynamic except India?? It would have been easy enough to include a Dravidianist or another sepoy...



The other thing which strikes me is that Martin Bernal was apparently trained as a Sinologist. Elst is the same way and took up a similar position with regard to the natives.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 02-23-2010

[Image: pelasgian_hypothesis.gif]



The above 'Pelasgian hypothesis' seems to be Binsbergen's brainchild. Witzel is appreciative because it banishes so-called IE from India during the formative moments. Very convenient to have the darkies all subsumed under an inchoate 'pelasgian' category.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - ramana - 02-24-2010

But why is Witzel in this area? How is he included in archaeo-genetics group of experts?


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 02-24-2010

It's more of a "cultural studies" group called to support Oppenheimer's personal Sunda migration thesis. Either Witzel is ingratiating himself to Oppenheimer to influence the latter on Archaeogenetics. Or he has an 'advance to the rear' strategy to co-opt an emerging trend of deep-time/cross-cultural migrations of narratives. Otherwise, Witzel wouldn't be caught anywhere near something like the Sunda thesis.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - ramana - 02-24-2010

Editorial in Hindu. 23 feb 2010.



Hair reveals past





Quote:Hair reveals our past





In less than 10 years after the human genome from a living individual was first sequenced, scientists have successfully sequenced a complete ancient human genome (only partial ancient human genomes and mitochondrial DNA have been sequenced in the past). The study was published recently in Nature . The sample studied was one of the four excellently preserved human tufts from a male paleo-Eskimo obtained from about 4,000-year-old permafrost at Qeqertasussuk, Greenland. As against the gold standard of sequencing the genome 10 times, the ancient human genome was sequenced 20 times over nearly 80 per cent of its length. Repeated sequencing helps enhance the level of accuracy, ensuring that any differences seen between ancient and modern human genomes are true. There is great interest in studying ancient humans to understand the routes of human migration from Africa. The ancient human's mitochondrial DNA sequenced in 2008 helped in identifying him as belonging to Saqqaq culture of East Siberia. Tracing the route of migration from East Siberia to Greenland through Alaska and Canada also became possible by comparing the ancient human genome with modern genome data; Saqqaqs had split from Chukchis, their closest relatives, some 5,500 years ago.



Sequencing the nuclear DNA and comparing the functional single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNP) with modern human genome data helped in identifying his appearance and roots. The study revealed that he had brown eyes, dark thick hair, and brown skin, which are typical Asian characteristics. His shovel-graded front teeth and earwax of the dry type are typical of Asians and native Americans. His metabolism and body mass index indicates that he was adapted to living in a cold climate. Sequencing the complete ancient genome became possible as hair tufts were excellently preserved in permafrost. However, the samples recovered in 1986 were stored at room temperature in the National History Museum of Denmark, Copenhagen, until they were studied recently. Past studies in humans and animals have shown that unlike bones and teeth, hair shafts are able to preserve mitochondrial DNA in larger quantities and for longer periods of time even at room temperature; the shaft's melanin material probably prevents DNA damage. But the latest study has shown that it is indeed possible to extract nuclear DNA from hair shafts, especially when hair is preserved in ice. The real challenge will be to extract nuclear DNA from samples recovered from temperate and tropical regions, where the majority of ancient human remains are found.



What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 02-24-2010

From the latest batch of papers.



Quote:[color="#FF0000"]More surprising is the status of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1, [/color]which, unlike mtDNA haplogroup I, [color="#FF0000"]is not indigenous to West Eurasia but appears to have originated in South Asia, [/color]possibly in the early settlements associated with the southern route dispersal [64]. This appears better substantiated than the alternative suggestion of a Central Asian origin [65][color="#2E8B57"][[[reference to Spencer]]].[/color] Two major subclades of R1 appear in Europe: R1b in the west and R1a in the north-east. It has been suggested that R1b mirrors mtDNA haplogroup H and the forerunner of V in arriving from the east shortly after the LGM. Then, with the Late Glacial, its main subclade R1b1b2 expanded into western and central Europe [66,67,68], with a possible expansion at the same time from Anatolia [69]. R1a might then represent an expansion from an eastern refuge, perhaps in the Ukraine, although it might also have been the result of more recent dispersals [62,66,70,71,72].



http://www.cell.com/current-biology/image/S0960-9822(09)02069-7?imageId=gr2&imageType=large (image)



Enjoy...


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 02-25-2010

[url="http://http://www.google.com/search?q=Homo+Sapiens+was+in+India+prior+to+74%2C000+years+ago&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a"]Homo Sapiens was in India prior to 74,000 years ago[/url]



Dammit these hindoos keep track of developments even when the forum is down. we seriously need to upgrade from 'carrot stick' to 'saam daam dand bhed'. turning others into coconuts and bananas was suppose to solve all our problems, but now we need chanakya lessons from these hindoos. what if they refuse? hey bhagwan chutkara dijiyo.