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What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - HareKrishna - 10-25-2011
Peacock and zebu are spread by trade not conquest.
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - HareKrishna - 10-25-2011
Most of R1a in India is "new" ,spreading either during neolithic revolution ,either in the formation of kingdoms period.
In the first variant the community that is first to adopt farming have the advantage to sweep remaining hunter-gatherers by sheer number.
In the second variant,royals families have way more children that common people,this leading ,in time,to dominance of "royal genes" in the genetic mass of population.In other words,the Ginghis-Khan effect.
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 10-27-2011
I looked at Klyosov's one article - it is a completely constructed scenario. For example, he proposes a complete disappearance of R1a1 from Europe proper after an initial 10+ K input from China/S Siberia (Kazhakstan), with residual in the Balkans. From this initial framework, the classic 1500 BC Aryan invasion is proposed from Russia. The disappearance from Europe is required because the atypical (and nonexistent) STR haplotype diversity he constructs for the Balkans is actually derived from "outliers" and also from haplotypes which are not even R1a1. It was an extreme effort to do this, but it is completely wrong. I will post a forum ref citing Klyosov's use of non-R1a1 STR profiles to falsify Balkan diversity.
S Indian haplotype diversity is given a separate genesis directly from China!
Underhill 2009 evaluated in one study the transcontinental populations of R1a1. They were able to resolve 70% of European occurences under one SNP and this SNP was missing from India. Once the SNP has been defined, STR analysis becomes moot. Even then the STR variance in India outpaced significantly that of other regions. Among these facts, they also cited that the phylogeny for R1a1 is supported upstream only in India. Basal R/R1 is of course there (in Gonds) but also P, joined at the root with the NOP and MNOPS of East Asia.
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 10-29-2011
[quote name='dhu' date='27 October 2011 - 06:39 AM' timestamp='1319677316' post='113503']
I looked at Klyosov's one article - it is a completely constructed scenario. For example, he proposes a complete disappearance of R1a1 from Europe proper after an initial 10+ K input from China/S Siberia (Kazhakstan), with residual in the Balkans. From this initial framework, the classic 1500 BC Aryan invasion is proposed from Russia. The disappearance from Europe is required because the atypical (and nonexistent) STR haplotype diversity he constructs for the Balkans is actually derived from "outliers" and also from haplotypes which are not even R1a1. It was an extreme effort to do this, but it is completely wrong. I will post a forum ref citing Klyosov's use of non-R1a1 STR profiles to falsify Balkan diversity.
S Indian haplotype diversity is given a separate genesis directly from China!
Underhill 2009 evaluated in one study the transcontinental populations of R1a1. They were able to resolve 70% of European occurences under one SNP and this SNP was missing from India. Once the SNP has been defined, STR analysis becomes moot. Even then the STR variance in India outpaced significantly that of other regions. Among these facts, they also cited that the phylogeny for R1a1 is supported upstream only in India. Basal R/R1 is of course there (in Gonds) but also P, joined at the root with the NOP and MNOPS of East Asia.
[/quote]
I read on wiki that the Madia Gond tribe in Maharashtra is 25% of Y-Haplogroup-P
Are you saying that R and R1 are also found in the Gond population ?
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 10-30-2011
[quote name='G.Subramaniam' date='29 October 2011 - 09:08 PM' timestamp='1319902226' post='113527']
I read on wiki that the Madia Gond tribe in Maharashtra is 25% of Y-Haplogroup-P
Are you saying that R and R1 are also found in the Gond population ?
[/quote]
R (R-207) and R1 are found in India rather abundantly. There were seen in Sanghamitra Sengupta's Table 3 supplementary material.
Sengupta's paper included testing for R2, Q, so there is very little chance of resolution into these groups.
That needs to be P in Gonds. But P in India is quite evident even in Zhong 2010 which is an AIT propaganda piece. Co-author of this paper included a Muslim if I recall corrected.
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 10-30-2011
[quote name='dhu' date='30 October 2011 - 12:18 AM' timestamp='1319913609' post='113531']
R (R-207) and R1 are found in India rather abundantly. There were seen in Sanghamitra Sengupta's Table 3 supplementary material.
Sengupta's paper included testing for R2, Q, so there is very little chance of resolution into these groups.
That needs to be P in Gonds. But P in India is quite evident even in Zhong 2010 which is an AIT propaganda piece. Co-author of this paper included a Muslim if I recall corrected.
[/quote]
In which castes / tribes are R and R1 predominant
P = Madia Gond
R1A = Chenchu tribals + North Indian Upper castes + SI.brahmin and Nairs ( thanks to Nambudris )
R2 = Bengali
H1 = Backward caste North Indian
L1 = Non-brahmin south Indian
Interestingly, Q found in Amerindians has been traced to north china and then back to India
So red-Indians are directly descended from real Indians with an intermediate chinese stage
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 10-30-2011
The information which you want is here
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/table/TB3/ (link will be deleted)
Cross ref with V Kumar Reddy's work
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 10-30-2011
[quote name='G.Subramaniam' date='30 October 2011 - 06:34 AM' timestamp='1319936164' post='113534']
Interestingly, Q found in Amerindians has been traced to north china and then back to India
So red-Indians are directly descended from real Indians with an intermediate chinese stage
[/quote]
These would perhaps be the greatest sons of Bharat in history.
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 10-30-2011
Quote:[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q_%28Y-DNA%29#South_Asia"]South Asia[/url]
A Biomed study observed an ancestral state Q* and a novel sub-branch Q5, not reported elsewhere, in the Indian subcontinent, though in low frequency.[4] A novel subgroup Q4 was identified recently which is also restricted to the Indian subcontinent. The most plausible explanation for these observations could be an ancestral migration of individuals bearing ancestral lineage Q* to the Indian subcontinent followed by an autochthonous differentiation to Q4 and Q5 sublineages later on. Thus the subcontinent has three novel Q lineages, an ancestral Q* (different from the Central Asian Q*), Q4 and Q5 unique to the subcontinent.
[4] Sharma S, Rai E, Bhat AK, Bhanwer AS, Bamezai RN (2007). "A novel subgroup Q5 of human Y-chromosomal haplogroup Q in India"
Quote:[url="http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/new_binary_polymorphism/resultsanddiscussions.html"]The Y Chromosome Consortium 2008[/url]
Undifferentiated paragroup Q* is observed at low frequencies in India and Pakistan.
Actually, this was originally a finding in one of the first Indian R1a1 papers, of course it was overshadowed at the time.
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - HareKrishna - 11-01-2011
6000 year ago all people had bwown eyes.The blue eyes mutation appear in what is today northern Afghanistan.
http://www.realitatea.net/acum-6-000-de-ani-toti-oamenii-aveau-ochii-caprui_882785.html
It is known that blue or green eyes are a genetic mutation. But research conducted at Copenhagen University brings information about this shift: it would be published in 6000 -10 000 years ago, writes descopera.ro.
According to Hans Einberg, leader of the study, everyone had brown eyes. A OCA2 gene led to diversification but eye color. Mutation of this gene affects the production of melatonin, a pigment responsible for skin color, eyes and hair.
The first people with blue eyes or green appeared in the place which is now northern Afghanistan.
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 11-01-2011
[quote name='HareKrishna' date='01 November 2011 - 01:09 AM' timestamp='1320089473' post='113551']
6000 year ago all people had bwown eyes.The blue eyes mutation appear in what is today northern Afghanistan.
http://www.realitatea.net/acum-6-000-de-ani-toti-oamenii-aveau-ochii-caprui_882785.html
It is known that blue or green eyes are a genetic mutation. But research conducted at Copenhagen University brings information about this shift: it would be published in 6000 -10 000 years ago, writes descopera.ro.
According to Hans Einberg, leader of the study, everyone had brown eyes. A OCA2 gene led to diversification but eye color. Mutation of this gene affects the production of melatonin, a pigment responsible for skin color, eyes and hair.
The first people with blue eyes or green appeared in the place which is now northern Afghanistan.
[/quote]
The white skin color gene SLC24A5 evolved only 6000 years ago
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-01-2011
[url="http://www.internetevolution.com/author.asp?section_id=587&doc_id=235391"]Out of Africa: IBM & National Geographic Map the Human Genography[/url]
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Virendra - 11-08-2011
The Story Of Our Origins; what do genetic tests reveal about Indians
DNA tests on a cross-section of Indians including John Abraham and Baichung Bhutia reveal surprising truths about our origins
Just where did our ancestors come from? Indian diversity has long been reduced by many historians to a simple story of an invasion of Aryans pushing Dravidians further south in the Subcontinent. But an analysis of the genes that Indians bear throws up enough evidence to rubbish that theory, pointing instead to a far more complex set of migrationsââ¬âand perhaps reverse migrationsââ¬âmany millennia earlier than commonly supposed.
To get a clearer picture of our origins, Open sent DNA samples of a couple of celebrities, John Abraham and Baichung Bhutia, alongwith those of four magazine staffers to the National Geographic Deep Ancestry Project. Based on the genetic markers thus identified and other research conducted by scientists, we present a plausible map of our origins. Be prepared for some surprises
ââ¬ËThe diversity of India is tremendous; it is obvious; it lies on the surface and anybody can see it. It concerns itself with certain mental habits and traits. There is little in commonââ¬Â¦ between the Pathan of the North-West and the Tamil in the far South. Yetââ¬Â¦there is no mistaking the impress of India on the Pathan, as this is obvious on the Tamilââ¬Â¦The Pathan and the Tamil are two extreme examples; the others lie somewhere in betweenââ¬Â¦It is fascinating to find how the Bengalis, the Marathas, the Gujaratis, the Tamils, the Andhras, the Oriyas, the Assamese, the Canarese, the Malayalis, the Sindhis, the Punjabis, the Pathans, the Kashmiris, the Rajput, and the great central block comprising the Hindustani-speaking people, have retained their peculiar characteristicsââ¬Â¦Ã¢â¬â¢
Nehru, even in his romanticism, was only stating what every observer of India has always noticedââ¬âthe tremendous diversity of people in India, not just in terms of customs and culture, but in religion, caste and appearance. The obvious question has always been: where does this diversity come from? Take, for example, caste: did the system evolve in India, or did it originate outside and become part of the countryââ¬â¢s social structure? Were our different language groups, such as Dravidian and Indo-European, brought in by different sets of migrants? The questions are endless, and the answer to any one of them lies in the answer to the most basic question of all: where do we Indians come from? How was the Subcontinent settled?
Attempts have been made to answer these questions with evidence drawn from fields as varied as linguistics and archaeology. Despite the inroads that have been made, the question has not even come close to being answered, and even the partial answers that have been on offer have been a source of contentious debate. For one, the Aryan Invasion theoryââ¬âsuggesting that an invasion of Indo-Europeans displaced the original Dravidian inhabitants of north India, which found favour at one time and was later rejected and denouncedââ¬âaddresses only a small part of the Subcontinentââ¬â¢s diversity as a theory.
But results from an entirely different area of human study suggest that there may be a satisfactory answer to the question, and it lies in our genes.
For each of us, our physical characteristics are encoded in the DNA that we carry within each cell of our body. A study of our DNA (see ââ¬ËThe Science of DNA Testingââ¬â¢) allows us to trace our ancestry. In case of men (and for women by testing their brothers or father), we can trace our line of paternal descent, our fatherââ¬â¢s fatherââ¬â¢s fatherââ¬â¢sââ¬Â¦ father, by studying the Y-chromosome; and in case of both men and women, we can trace our line of maternal descent, our motherââ¬â¢s motherââ¬â¢s motherââ¬â¢sââ¬Â¦ mother, by studying mitochondrial DNA.
This field, now over two decades old, has slowly been refined to the point where events in our distant ancestry can now be studied. Not only are the new answers on offer fascinating, there is also the certainty that with each passing year, they will be refined, questioned and challenged to the point where we would be able to make definitive statements about our past. One such project is National Geographicââ¬â¢s Deep Ancestry that is compiling data from across the world on people who want to determine their distant ancestry.
We sent six samples, four men and two women, of people from various parts of India to the National Geographic Project (NGP), and, based on the results we have obtained (see the case studies listed in the right column), we have attempted to map out a representative history of what can be said today about the peopling of India. To do so, we have not only sought elaboration from Ramasamy Pitchappan, principal investigator, India, of the NGP, we have also spoken to a leading Indian geneticist, RNK Bamezai, director of the National Centre of Applied Human Genetics (NCAHG) at Jawaharlal Nehru University and vice-chancellor of Jammu University.
Of course, having collated all this research material and inputs, the final responsibility of the interpretations made rests with Open.
ANTIQUITY OF THE INDIAN FEMALE POPULATION
Sometime between 60,000 to 90,000 years ago, humans first moved out of Africa by crossing the Red Sea. This, in all likelihood, occurred during a glacial period when the earth was at its coldest, and falling sea levels would have shrunk the distance between Africa and Asia at its narrowest to barely 11 km. Crossing into Asia, surviving on a diet rich in shellfish, these early humans who left Africa stayed close to the coast as they made their way round to South Asia.
The strongest evidence of this is offered by the study of mitochondrial DNA, which indicates the maternal line of descent (see DNA analysis of Sohini Chattopadhyay and Haima Deshpande of Open). All human beings outside Africa are descended from two female lines, termed Haplogroup M and N. It is unclear whether the two female lines evolved while humans were still in Africa or shortly after, but the available evidence suggests both lines were present in that first migration from Africa to South Asia.
DISTRIBUTION OF MITOCHONDRIAL DNA HAPLOGROUPS IN THE INDIAN POPULATION:
M ââ¬â 60 per cent
N ââ¬â 25 per cent
U* ââ¬â 15 per cent
*A sub branch of N that is found in larger numbers in the northwest of the country
The vast majority of the Indian population carries Sohini and Haimaââ¬â¢s Haplogroup M, whose antiquity in India dates back at least 60,000 years ago, if not more. Since mitochondrial DNA is passed down in direct line of maternal descent, this suggests that the female population of India dates directly back to that first exodus of humans from Africa.
The N Haplogroup and its sub-haplogroup U are also found in India, but show up in high frequencies largely in the Northwest. Even these groups seem to be largely of great antiquity in the Subcontinent. There seems to have been very little migration of women into the Subcontinent after the first settlers arrived here. According to Bamezai, who advises caution in saying anything more than warranted by the data, this is not so surprising: ââ¬ÅThe mobility of males was much moreââ¬âraiding parties or for that matter armies on the move even today are largely male.ââ¬Â
THE COMPLICATED STORY OF THE INDIAN MALE POPULATION
The men who are believed to have migrated to India along with women as part of the first coastal migration from Africa are identified by the Haplogroup C. This marker is found in less than 5 per cent of the Indian population today. These migrants seem to have moved further along the coast, settling in East Asia and Australia.
DISTRIBUTION OF Y-CHROMOSOME (FOUND ONLY IN MEN) DNA HAPLOGROUPS:
H ââ¬â 30 per cent
R1a1ââ¬â 20 per cent
R2a ââ¬â 15 per cent
L ââ¬â 10 per cent
O and related markers ââ¬â 10 per cent
Others ââ¬â 15 per cent
In rather broad terms, it is possible to make some generalisations. H is found in greater percentage among the Austro-Asiatic tribal population, L among the Dravidian language (such as Tamil and Telugu) speaking non-tribal population, R1a1 among speakers of the Indo-European languages (such as Hindi, Punjabi and Bengali). But there is no way on this basis to distinguish any individual from another. An individual with R1a1 could as well be a tribal as an Indo-European language speaker. Nor can discrete groupings be identified in any clear-cut way. The L marker could be found in the north of the country, and H could show up among some Brahmins.
What we do know for sure is that the earliest large-scale male settlers in the Subcontinent belong to the line defined by Haplogroup F and its branch Haplogroup H (see the DNA analysis of John Abraham). Both these haplogroups are found in significant percentages in the Indian tribal population, reaching a combined percentage of well over 30. The F Haplogroup dates back to at least 45,000 years in the Subcontinent. Johnââ¬â¢s H haplogroup, which is not found anywhere else in the world in any significant proportion and has hence been termed the ââ¬ËIndian markerââ¬â¢, has an antiquity in the Subcontinent of at least 25,000 years. Interestingly, though, it is found among Europeââ¬â¢s gypsies, indicating their Indian origin.
A related line descended from Haplogroup F, termed Haplogroup L (see the DNA analysis of Sharad Raghavan), is also found in significant numbers in South India, especially Tamil Nadu among the non-tribal population. Again, this is a haplogroup rarely found outside India and has an antiquity of around 25,000 years.
Two other significant haplogroups found in the Indian population are R1a1 (see the DNA analysis of Hartosh Singh Bal) and R2a, both found deep in the line of descent that goes back to Haplogroup F. Their antiquity in India dates back 15,000 to 20,000 years ago.
Hartoshââ¬â¢s R1a1 is found in higher proportions in the north of India and among upper-castes, reaching a proportion of nearly 50 per cent in Punjab and over 70 per cent in such caste groups as West Bengal Brahmins. But it is also found in the South and among the tribal population, reaching a proportion of well over 25 per cent among the Chenchu tribals of Andhra. R2a mirrors the distribution of R1a1, but it has a far more evenly spread across the geography of the Subcontinent and the hierarchy of castes; in some ways, it is a pan-Indian marker, a significant marker that has not shown up in the small sample sent by Open to the NGP.
There are also an assorted number of other markers, such as the D Haplogroup (see DNA analysis of Baichung Bhutia). This haplogroup is found in large numbers in East Asia and has likely reached Sikkim from Tibet. It is also found among some northeastern tribes that bear Haplogoup O as the other important marker.
MAKING SENSE OF THE MALE LINEAGE
The first male settlers of the Indian Subcontinent would have accompanied the women, whose descendants still inhabit the Subcontinent, on the first coastal migration from Africa. They are identified by the Haplogroup C marker, found in less than 5 per cent of the Indian population. According to the NGP, the presence of both Johnââ¬â¢s and Sharadââ¬â¢s haplogroups (H and L) in India can be explained by two separate migrations, one from the Middle East and the other from Central Asia, both dating back some 25,000 to 30,000 years ago.
The NGP goes on to describe the first encounter between the men from the original settlement of India with those who arrived later. The genetic trail, the NGP states, ââ¬Ëprovides some tantalizing clues as to what may have happened when members of the Indian Clan and the [earlier settled] Coastal Clan met. The [mitochondrial DNA] of people in this region preserves evidence of the early coastal dwellers in the female lineage, but Y-chromosome frequency for the Coastal Clan is very weakââ¬âaround 5 per cent in southern India, and even less frequent going farther north. These data suggest that the descendants of the Indian Clan may have mated with the women of the earlier coastal population, but that the coastal men were killed, driven off, or otherwise prevented from reproducing.ââ¬â¢
Pitchappan elaborates, ââ¬ÅProbably initial colonies consisting of males and females settled and expanded. In the later migrations, either the males were by themselves or they came accompanied by very few females. Local males could have resisted and could have been exterminated, while females may have been amalgamated.ââ¬Â He adds that other possibilities are also conceivable, such as matrilineal societies by which the incoming males could have been amalgamated: ââ¬ÅThere is some evidence to suggest that settlements in the Dravidian belt were female centric.ââ¬Â He points to the existence of matriarchal societies in the South, such as Keralaââ¬â¢s Nairs, as the survival of an older tradition.
But stories such as this are speculative at best. In the Indian context, they are reminiscent of the possibilities once cited to describe the entry of Indo-Europeans into India, the so-called Aryan Invasion theory.
The evidence so far, however, seems to suggest that the presence of both Johnââ¬â¢s and Sharadââ¬â¢s haplogroups in India could be well explained by an earlier arrival of the super-ancestral F haplogroup in India. In fact, it is quite likely that either the F haplogroup arrived as part of the coastal migration along with the C haplogroup, to which it is very closely related, or it evolved here in males who were part of the earlier migration. If so, it would make sense that the antiquity of a great majority of the Indian male population also goes back to the out-of-Africa coastal migration.
In fact, much of the genetic evidence seems to suggest a South Asian origin for the F haplogroup. This haplogroup and its lines of descent account for perhaps 90 per cent of the male population in the world. Contrary to received wisdom, this would imply that much of the globe outside Africa was settled by outward migrations from South Asia dating back to over 50,000 years ago. Certainly, the distant origins of the modern European population seem to lie in South Asia, emphasising the crucial importance of this region in understanding the peopling of the globe.
But beyond such speculation, which will be settled as more and more data is gathered by projects such as the NGP, the one thing that can be said with a degree of certainty is that the antiquity of both the L and H haplogroups in India suggests that a majority of the Indian male population can trace its presence in the Subcontinent back at least 20,000 years if not earlier.
THE MYTH OF THE INDO-EUROPEAN MARKER
This brings us to perhaps the most contentious of markers, Hartoshââ¬â¢s R1a1. The NGP states: ââ¬ËSome linguists believe that the Kurgans, nomadic horsemen roaming the steppes of southern Russia and the Ukraine, were the first to speak and spread a Proto-Indo-European language, some 5,000 to 10,000 years ago. Genetic data and the distribution of Indo-European speakers suggest the Kurgans ââ¬Â¦ may have been descendents of M17 (the genetic marker that identifies the R1a1 haplogroup). Today a large concentrationââ¬âaround 40 per centââ¬âof the men living from the Czech Republic across the steppes to Siberia, and south throughout Central Asia are descendants of this clan. In India, around 35 per cent of the men in Hindi-speaking populations carry the M17 marker, whereas the frequency in neighboring communities of Dravidian speakers is only about ten percent. This distribution adds weight to linguistic and archaeological evidence suggesting that a large migration from the Asian steppes into India occurred within the last 10,000 years.ââ¬â¢
This NGP claim goes far beyond what the genetic data warrants. Says Bamezai, after looking through the NGP results published in this article, ââ¬ÅFor me as a scientist, it is necessary to be very conservative in my claims. Any broad conclusions require much more work and detailed study of not just haplogroups, but sub-haplogroups. I think the migration paths described in these cases are in question. I feel R1a1 originated here and contributed to Central Asia rather than the other way around.ââ¬Â
A key 2009 paper published in the Journal of Human Genetics by Bamezai and his colleagues at JNU argues this point further: ââ¬ËMany major rival models of the origin of the Hindu caste system co-exist despite extensive studies, each with associated genetic evidences. One of the major factors that has still kept the origin of the Indian caste system obscure is the unresolved question of the origin of Y-haplogroup R1a1, at times associated with a male-mediated major genetic influx from Central Asia or Eurasia, which has contributed to the higher castes in India. Y-haplogroup R1a1 has a widespread distribution and high frequency across Eurasia, Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent... To resolve these issues, we screened 621 Y-chromosomes (of Brahmins occupying the upper-most caste position and schedule castes/tribals occupying the lower-most positions)... for conclusions. A peculiar observation of the highest frequency (up to 72.22%) of Y-haplogroup R1a1 in Brahmins hinted at its presence as a founder lineage for this caste group. Further, observation of R1a1 in different tribal population groups, existence of Y-haplogroup R1a in ancestors, and extended phylogenetic analyses of the pooled dataset of 530 Indians, 224 Pakistanis and 276 Central Asians and Eurasians bearing the R1a1 haplogroup supported the autochthonous [indigenous] origin of R1a1 lineage in India and a tribal link to Indian Brahmins.ââ¬â¢
The conclusions bear restatement. The first thing that the evidence suggests is that the origins of Hartoshââ¬â¢s R1a1 haplogroup lie in India. Thus, a large part of Central Asia, Southern Russia, Ukraine onwards to the Czech Republic may well be populated by a 15,000-year-old migration from India. Given the timeframe of the origins of the R1a1 haplogroup in India, it is important to note that this does not rule out a subsequent re-entry of people from Central Asia bearing this marker into India at a much later date. As further sub-lineages of Hartoshââ¬â¢s R1a1 are studied, it may well be possible to answer even this question.
The second part of their conclusions rests on the fact that the proportion of R1a1 in some Brahmin groups such as those of West Bengal is as high as 72 per cent. This indicates that the origins of Brahmins as a caste may well lie in the R1a1 haplogroup. But since the antiquity of the Ra1a haplogroup in tribals such as Central Indiaââ¬â¢s Sahariyas is older than it is among Brahmins, it is reasonable to believe that Brahmins may not be entrants from outside but may have originated as a caste from the tribal population of this country.
It is a strong claim, one that hints at possible discoveries that may lie ahead as the genetics of the Indian population is studied in greater detail. The one conclusion, though, that is unlikely to change is the one Bamezai emphasises over and over: ââ¬ÅGroups we seem to see as distinct have overlapping genetic signatures. In fact, two castes that may have great hostility towards each other may carry the same signatures. Caste, tribe and religion in India do not have any genetic basis.ââ¬Â Trite as it may sound, the conclusion is inescapable, there is unity in this diversity.
http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/living/the-story-of-our-origins
Regards,
Virendra
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-09-2011
[url="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2057546/Early-humans-Africa-route-Arabia-Egypt.html#comments"]Scientists confirm early humans were from Africa but their route out was via Arabia not Egypt[/url]
A few of the comments including a few gems by one Kaycee from UK...
Quote:Oh stop whining -it is the comet on 22nd December 2012 you got to worry about.
- Rob, Stockton-on-tees, UK, 5/11/2011 14:17
You chart stops before they ALL came to England!
- Robin, Of Croxley, 5/11/2011 12:08
The date actual looks like 83000 years ago when there was a very big ice age peak and low sea levels. Also man was in India before 73000 years ago, as the Super Volcanoe Toba wiped them out in India, so it looks like they have only been in India 70000 years when it was repopulated from the east and west. The flood mythe is in about 40 cultures, so must have hit a small group of people who then spread around the world. We are basicaly beach comers. As we need large amounts of fresh water to survive we can not cross deserts we followed springs and rivers.Climate must allways be intergrated with the genetic data. Ice age peaks have been the big driver in the last 200,000 years genetistes need to look at climate to see what was possible. See Stephen Oppenheimer's book Out of Eden for one of the better explanations.
- Peter, Windsor UK, 5/11/2011 6:48
"Academia favours leaving out 99 percent of the facts when forming their theories." The Grim Reaper, Reality, 05/11/2011 04:03. And you leave out 99 percent of your brain cells when you make such an asinine comment.
- Bill, Ipswich, 5/11/2011 5:25
Kaycee sorry to burst your bubble, but like I said in my ealier comment, I KNOW where my ancestors came from. And NOT India. - Sweet Cherry, Glorious Sunny London, 4/11/2011 13:56
Perhaps most of the confusion on which route humans took is because of the geographical changes that the earth may have gone through the last 100 000 years. Definitely, though, I have always found it interesting that people complain about migr ation. All of human history shows that migr ation is a natural act of humans, and that there are ultimately no borders however much we try to draw them up.
- Cain Lawrence, Westmount, Quebec, 4/11/2011 17:06
The migrations appear to show that the British came from Central Europe whereas the main view is that the Celts actually originated from the Iberian Peninsula.
- Philip, Merseyside, 4/11/2011 16:17
Did Wells deliberately exclude the Australian Aboriginals from the study? While they themselves are happy to claim to have always been in Australia, their (partial) archaic-hominid ancestry is potentially Politically Incorrect - and Wells is a very PC kind of guy.
- Simon , London, 4/11/2011 15:45
[color="#0000FF"]<Typical propagandist masquerading as a materialist - the heathens do not need to make "claims" nor do they need to justify their presence>[/color]
In some ways, Sweet Cherry is right. Evolution doesn't exist. Not anymore. We've seen to that by interfering with the survival of the fittest, allowing people who would have perished to survive. This has weakened the gene pool and humankind to such an extent, that people like Sweet Cherry walk among us. She is proof enough that we've stopped evolving..
- Soothsayer, Avalon, 4/11/2011 15:40
''And now they come into the UK via stowing in the back of trucks via Calais, some things never change.'' They are going to their ancestors land that left india and went into europe, who become europeans..aka YOU. Also wasnt it the case for europeans who for 400years invaded, looted, enslaved entire cultures and people. So i think first they coming back to the land that took what belonged to them and second, as is clearly shown in genetic, europeans come from india. How can they be going anywhere other than to the land which was colonized by indians? lol...The change in history takes place with the onset of Abrahamic faiths, who declare that only in their name and their god can you achieve salvation, that ideology erased, diluted, the ancient links that created pre-abrahamic societies with the homeland, India.
- kaycee, uk, 4/11/2011 13:30
Who ever thought our ancestors left Africa via Egypt and Sinai?? The theory has always been that they left via the Ethoipia/Yemen straits at a time when sea levels were much lower and it was possible to wade across. What a non news item!!
- John, Halton, 4/11/2011 11:20
Sweet Cherry, your ancestors came from India. This is proven. Story of Noah and the great flood, is an exact replica of ancient vedic text that predates all known great flood myths. Known as the Hindu Matsya Purana (Fish Chronicle), it clearly mentions the story of noah. And in the Mahabharata it states:"The progeny of Adamis and Hevas (Adam and Eve) soon became so wicked that they were no longer able to coexist peacefully. Brahma therefore decided to punish his creatures, "Vishnu" ordered Vaivasvata to build a ship for himself and his family. When the ship was ready, and Vaivasvata and his family were inside with the seeds of every plant and a pair of every species of animal, the big rains began and the rivers began to overflow." Now genetics is proving something that was rightfully taken from the oldest culture in the world. Its high time India is recognized as the home of civilization. Indian vedic culture is the unifying culture that binds the Egyptions, sumerians, Babylonians.
- kaycee, uk, 4/11/2011 10:58
For so many years a false aryan theory was promoted at all levels. Now we just as Ancient indian sources have claimed all a long, Indian tribes migrated out into central asia, north africa, and europe. When the Europeans ventured into india and proposed the aryan theory it was because their where so many similarities between ancient indians and ancient european/central asian populations especially cultural. This report as well as many others have stated over the past several years, that from india man migrated out to all parts, and from india agriculture started, which migrated with indian tribes into central asia and europe itself. Genetics confirm that European R1a1 genome type comes from India. The indians are the ancient ancestors of present day europeans.
- kaycee, uk, 4/11/2011 10:39
Finally the evidence is now starting to make it mainstream. India is the home of civilization, from india tribes migrated out into central asia, north africa, europea and beyong. The genetics has proved this for quite sometime, even the north african populations come from genetic lines that arose in india. Their are even suggestions that south india may indeed by the home of modern man. Indian texts mention tribes migrated out with vedic culture and kick starting civilisation. The europeans created the Aryan Invasion of india, but actually the truth is the opposite the indian aryan invasion of central asia, north africa and europe. Europeans are from Indian ancestors culturally, physically, and linguistically.
- kaycee, uk, 4/11/2011 9:49
Evolution is just a myth! You can believe what you like but we ALL came from the Middle East in a garden called Eden where first man and woman walked. At least I know that's where my ancestors came from
- Sweet Cherry, Sunny Glorious London, 4/11/2011 9:18
These are assumptions of the ' Out of African theory' they do not explain the Neanderthals,the Mongolians,the South Americans,the North Americans or even the Aborigines,the Maori,s or other peoples who evolved through different ape species worldwide. No matter how hard one tries to hammer home a piece of a jigsaw ,if its the wrong piece one will get the wrong picture.At this rate its the 'Flat Earth Theory'.
- George, Netherlands, 4/11/2011 9:02
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-09-2011
deleted repeat post......
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - ramana - 11-10-2011
Gentics study is ripping apart all false studies of the West.
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Meluhhan - 11-11-2011
[quote name='ramana' date='09 November 2011 - 05:00 PM' timestamp='1320875543' post='113645']
Gentics study is ripping apart all false studies of the West.
[/quote]
Technically, the Vedas themselves state that the enemies of the Rig Vedic Aryans migrated westward out of India. This is what [url="http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv07006.htm"]Book 7, Hymn 6[/url] of the Rig Veda says:
Quote:3 The foolish, faithless, rudely-speaking niggards, without belief or sacrifice or worship,ââ¬â
Far far sway hath Agni chased those Dasytis, and, in the cast, hath turned the godless westward.
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 11-11-2011
http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2011/11/03/modern-humans-wandered-out-of-africa-via-arabia/
Has a recent DNA map and basically confirms Dhu
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 11-12-2011
[quote name='G.Subramaniam' date='11 November 2011 - 07:59 AM' timestamp='1320978114' post='113659']
http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2011/11/03/modern-humans-wandered-out-of-africa-via-arabia/
[/quote]
Till now, the Aryanists have been carelessly using autosomals to usher in the Aryans when they failed to enlist the haplogroup evidence. Autosomals are malleable to creative interpretation and allowed for endless "speculation" on AIT in India -- invariably these followed the classical AIT scenario. This new study by Royyuru which follows the diversity of recombination events silences the endless autosomal-based AIT scenarios. It does not add anything new and its resolution is much lower than that of haplogroups but the autosomal detour of AITists has been closed shut.
One thing to be noticed is that the myriad hard- and quasi- euro-supremacist sites (basically all "anthropology" sites) have failed to discuss three things recently:
1. The lactase persistence results, because these suggest clear intrusion into Europe: the frequency peak at the extreme western end entails a necessary origin at the far eastern end.
2. Royyuru
3. Re-dating of a lot of the "Magdalenian" paraphrenalia to post-Neolithic [url="http://http://2ndlook.wordpress.com/2011/06/04/lowenmensch-puzzle-am-i-missing-something/"]Löwenmensch [/url]
Unsurprisingly the celeb geneticist Spencer Well, previously known for Haranguing of Native Australians, went along with Royyuru.
What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - ramana - 11-12-2011
dhu do i have your e-mail?