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What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 06-11-2012

An angle that really needs exploring...



[url="http://www.medindia.net/news/leprosy-pathogen-eludes-vital-vitamin-d-dependent-immune-response-96867-1.htm"]Leprosy Pathogen Eludes Vital Vitamin D-Dependent Immune Response[/url]


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - RomaIndian - 06-11-2012

What do you think about Reich et al "Ancestral Southindian"/"Ancestral Northindian"?



-Im just curious, I think an Aryan Invasion/Migration cannot be inferred.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - ramana - 06-12-2012

[quote name='dhu' date='10 June 2012 - 05:44 AM' timestamp='1339306591' post='115076']

Also, there is evidence that the keepers of the holy mecca are directly descendant from S Asia/Iran.

[/quote]





Dhu, Please elaborate. Thanks, ramana


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 06-12-2012

@ramana, It may be useful to have Dhu post on Shiv's out of India thread on the other forum


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 06-12-2012

There have been several waves out of India not only to Europe but also to middle east



The berbers, MtDNA is U6 which originates in Punjab, 40k years ago



The Arabs and Jews are Y-Haplogroup J, which also originates in India


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 06-12-2012

The clades of R1a1 seen in Saudi Arabia are Indo-Iranian specific and actually span the full spectrum of Indo-Iranian specific clades, meaning large scale migration into Arabia from Iran/India.

These include the specific tribe that is the keeper of the "holy mosque" at mecca: the name of the tribe I cannot remember.

Within the Kurds are found entire clades equivalent to the european-specific clades, and this is a good indicator of the diversity to be found further east from where the Kurds are to have migrated. Equivalent clades have also been found in India.

The C Asiatic clades including Tarim and Andronovo are India-specific.

What is seen is the wave model of R1a1 expansion: 1st was European-specific expanding out of the ME (probably Iran), with a 2nd wave trailing the the 1st which was more Asiatic-specific with percolations also into Europe..


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - RomaIndian - 06-12-2012

Really Awesome Thread, with much Informations. <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Smile' />


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Guest - 06-14-2012

Subramaniam ji,



Please bear with me, I am only confused so I keep repeating this question, from wiki of R haplogroup:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_%28mtDNA%29

the distribution map of R places R1 near Turmenistan:

R1* (16278): In Kurdish from Turkmenistan (9%).[9]



R1a* (3337): Found in Brahmins from Uttar Pradesh (India).[5] Also in Adygei people (Caucasus).

R1a1: Found in Northwest Caucasian people like Kabardins and Adygei people. Observed in eastern European populations like northwestern Russians and Poles.[12]



so on one hand we know that R's diversity places R in India, yet this wiki places R1 in Turmenistan?



how can one reconcile this? kindly explain, only trying to understand. AIT/AMT adherents keep bringing this up to say that R1 actually is European even though R is in India, I am confused.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 06-15-2012

If you look at the Y-DNA tree



A = African



C = Onge Negrito Andamanese who look just like African Negros



F = First modern human, with slightly less Negroid Nose and less Negroid Lips and Skin color of dark brown, instead of black, and 10% bigger brain. or in other words, first modern human



F is the ancestor of 90% of modern humans, all Oriental, all Indians, all Arabs, all whites



Many of the Indian SC-ST population is F. Such as Irula snake catcher tribal in Tamil Nadu



DNA shows that they have been endogamously separate from the local Dravidians for nearly 35k years



L1 = Dravidian OBC



P = Madia Gond, a tribe near Mumbai



Q = Oriental, Amerind, and some Indian tribes



P and Q are originated in India



R is descended from P



All sources of R are in India



Central Asia is basically a desert now and even more of a desert in the ice age and sparsely populated



R, R1A, R2 is all originated in India, per wiki-Underhill



The Chenchu tribals are an early version of R1A



Wiki is open-source, so anyone can add his fantasies to it about R



R is Indian upper caste ancestral, White descendant

Lactase Tolerance is Upper caste ancestral, white descendant

SLC24A5 skin color is Indian ancestral, white descendant



Lactase tolerance gene is 10k years old, SLC24A5 is 6k years old



--



You should really read all the posts by Dhu


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Guest - 06-15-2012

Subramaniam ji, Thanks for the patience and for explaining it to me. Dhu ji is above me <img src='http://www.india-forum.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Smile' /> but I will read again...



Regards.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 06-16-2012

Nag,

You are looking at the mtDNA page not at the Y-DNA page for R1a1.

"AIT/AMT adherents keep bringing this up to say that R1 actually is European even though R is in India, I am confused."

R1b is now well known to be a late entrant into Europe from the ME: actually it is Iranian and even Possibly even S Asian.

It is impossible to maintain the opposite direction of migration for R1a1 from that of R1b. Quite simply.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 06-16-2012

[quote name='dhu' date='16 June 2012 - 03:41 AM' timestamp='1339797792' post='115098']

Nag,

You are looking at the mtDNA page not at the Y-DNA page for R1a1.

"AIT/AMT adherents keep bringing this up to say that R1 actually is European even though R is in India, I am confused."

R1b is now well known to be a late entrant into Europe from the ME: actually it is Iranian and even Possibly even S Asian.

It is impossible to maintain the opposite direction of migration for R1a1 from that of R1b. Quite simply.

[/quote]





In the Oppenheimer book, he calls MtDNA - R as Rohini, meaning Indian



He uses Mt-DNA-U as Europa, but U is originated in Punjab 50k years ago, U6 went into North Africa and is the Berber marker


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 07-22-2012

mtDNA haplogroup M in Bronze Age Syria

Uncategorized No Responses »

Jun

21

2012



Science Magazine highlights a presentation in the Bioarchaeology session of the 8th International Congress on the Archaeology of the Ancient Near East (DNA of people living in the middle Euphrates valley 2.5-4.5 Kyrs ago):



But at the meeting, biologist Henryk Witas of the University of Łódź in Poland presented preliminary evidence of ancient mitochondrial DNA from human teeth from a half-dozen skeletons at two sites in eastern Syria dated to various times in the 3rd millennium B.C.E. Most of the DNA was related to [haplogroup] M, which is not found in people living in the Middle East today but is common among those now living in northern Pakistan, India, and Tibet. Witas concluded that people migrated from the northern part of the Indian subcontinent along trade routes to the west as early as 2500 B.C.E.

This surprising conclusion was hotly disputed by others who suspect that the M group once existed in the Near East but has been diluted since. “There is no archaeological evidence of Central Asian migration” before medieval times, notes archaeologist Maria Grazia Masetti-Rouault of the Sorbonne University in Paris, who excavated the Syrian sites. “it is way too premature to make any conclusions from this,” adds Reinhard Bernbeck of the Free University in Berlin.



Bad reporting aside, M is a huge and extremely diverse clade with divisions on every inhabited continent, not just South Asia (and it’s definitely not completely unknown from the modern Near East — see here — though, yes, it only holds a minority share, and owes something to relatively recent gene flow from South Asia). I assume the sequences in question belong to characteristically South Asian branches of M — among them, perhaps, M6, though that’s just speculation on my part (see left for isofrequency map from Metspalu et al. (2005) … it probably actually drops off much more steeply north of the Himalayas).



This more recent article in the Polish press presents some additional details:



Analysis by Prof. Henryk Witas from the Department of Molecular Biology, Medical University of Łódź, showed that people from the Indian subcontinent had lived among the inhabitants of the area of Mesopotamia.

The scientist isolated mitochondrial DNA from the human remains found by Dr. Jacek Tomczyk, anthropologist from the Cardinal Stefan Wyszyński University in Warsaw, at the Syrian archaeological sites Tell Mesaikh and Terqa in the valley of the middle Euphrates. These people lived in different periods between 2500 BC and 500 AD [typo in congress title, or additional samples?].



“It turned out that among the analyzed individuals some represented clades [...] of macro-haplogroup M that is [sic?] not found in today’s Syria. We also know that they originated in the Indian subcontinent (Tibet, Pakistan, India) at least 30 thousand years ago” – explained Prof. Witas.



The researcher suggested that while one of the test subjects from the beginning of our era could have come to Mesopotamia on silk route, the presence of people from the East in the third millennium BC may indicate the existence of trade routes as early as the Bronze Age.



“It is also possible that examined remains belonged to the descendants of the founders of the first civilization in the region. It should be emphasized that so far there is no other evidence to support this theory” – added Prof. Witas.



Polish scientists plan to collect a much larger number of specimens by extending the study to other periods and regions of Mesopotamia, which may help to explain the puzzling findings.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - ramana - 09-30-2012

New Paper:



Shared and Unique Components of Human Population Structure and Genome-Wide Signals of Positive Selection in South Asia



Shared and Unique Components of Human Population Structure and Genome-Wide Signals of Positive Selection in South Asia



And a blog discussing it:



Peeling the population genetic Indian onion



And read the comments:



Quote:# 2. Giggsy Says:

December 9th, 2011 at 10:08 am



”The inference here then is that perhaps “Ancestral North Indians” are a source population for other West Eurasians! I think more likely this is not the case.”



This is EXACTLY the case. The Abrahamic laced intellectual world is slowly but surely coming to this realization, that ANI are the ancestors of west Asians. Not the other way as was forced onto the world…aka Aryan theory the invasion of the sons of Shem and Japeth to enslave the cursed sons of Ham. I cannot believe that Christian and Muslims are not aware of their own historical ruling elite. If anyone knows about Aryan theory its VERY CLEAR why it was needed. To confirm the home of the jews, christians and muslims aka the abrahamic tribe to the middle east and attach ‘home of civilization’ to it, they needed to show that India was indeed younger than abrahamic origins, to justify their own claim to civilization fame. To look at it deeper, its very easy to see why, first two sons of Noah, where Shem and Japeth, the light skinned special tribe of god, the chosen people. Who set up judaism, christianity and islam. However Noah had third son, who was Ham, and he was cursed and made dark to be servant of the other two sons. This curse of ham, was the Reason why aryan invasion was created, to justify to themselves that india was not the home of civilisation, and in fact the reason why india is civilized is because of an unknown group of white aryans from europe or central asia, or somewhere else, came and civilised india. Therefore the religous sanction is given. Ham was not civilised he was civilised by sons of shem and japeth.



That is the aryan theory. Muslims, christians, and jews fully support this lie.



‘Researchers found that the Indian populations had more genetic diversity than Europeans and East Asians, which gives a good indicator of the age of a population” Genographic project IBM.



Sahoo et al had actually written the following words:“The perennial concept of people, language, and agriculture arriving to India together through thenorthwest corridor does not hold up to close scrutiny.Recent claims for a linkage of haplogroups J2, L, R1a,and R2 with a contemporaneous origin for the majority of the Indian castes’ paternal lineages from outside the subcontinent are REJECTED, although our findings do support a local origin of haplogroups F* and H.” .They also rule out arrivals from Southwest Asia because West Asian haplogroups (like Y-Hg G) are not found in India.



Kivisild’s findings (2003) too had shown that humans could not have arrived from West Asia into Indiabecause of lack of West Asian Y-hgs E, G, I, J* and J2f. Kivisild et al wrote,“When compared with European and Middle Eastern populations (Semino et al. 2000), Indians (i) share with themclades J2 and M173 derived sister groups R1b and R1a, the latter of which is particularly frequent in India; and (ii) lack or show amarginal frequency of clades E, G, I, J*, and J2f.”



There is a fundamental unity of mtDNA lineages in India, in spite of the extensive cultural and linguistic diversity, pointing to a relatively small founding group of females in India. Most of the mtDNA diversity observed in Indian populations is between individuals within populations; there is no significant structuring of haplotype diversity by socio-religious affiliation, geographical location of habitat or linguistic affiliation.- Scientists Susanta Roychoudhury and thirteen others studying 644 samples of mtDNA from ten Indian ethnic groups.



Dravidian” authorship of the Indus-Sarasvati civilization rejected indirectly, since it noted, “Our data are also more consistent with a peninsular origin of Dravidian speakers than a source with proximity to the Indus….” They found, in conclusion, “overwhelming support for an Indian origin of Dravidian speakers.”The frequencies of R2 seems to mirror the frequencies of R1a (i.e. both lineages are strong and weak in the same social and linguistic subgroups). This may indicate that both R1a and R2 moved into India at roughly the same time. R2 is very rare in Europe.Sanghamitra Sengupta, L. Cavalli-Sforza, Partha P. Majuder, and P. A. Underhill. – 2006.



A (2009) study headed by geneticist Swarkar Sharma, collated information for 2809 Indians (681 Brahmins, and 2128 tribals and schedule castes). The results showed “no consistent pattern of the exclusive presence and distribution of Y-haplogroups to distinguish the higher-most caste, Brahmins, from the lower-most ones, schedule castes and tribals”. Brahmins from West Bengal showed the highest frequency (72.22%) of Y-haplogroups R1a1* hinting that it may have been a founder lineage for this caste group. The authors found it significant that the Saharia tribe of Madhya Pradesh had not only 28.07% R1a1, but also 22.8% R1a*, out of 57 people, with such a high percentage of R1a* never having been found before. Based on STR variance the estimated age of R1a* in India was 18,478 years, and for R1a1 it was 13,768 years.In its conclusions the study proposed “the autochthonous origin and tribal links of Indian Brahmins” as well as “the origin of R1a1* … in the Indian subcontinent”.S. Sharma, argued for an Indian origin of R1a1 lineage among Brahmins, by pointing out the highest incidence of R1a*, ancestral clade to R1a1, among Kashmiri Pandits (Brahmins) and Saharias, an Indian tribe.

- Sharma et al 2009



Human Genetics at the University of Michigan, conducted genetic analysis of Indian-born individuals in the US. Their studies of 1,200.’We were struck both by the low level of diversity amongst people spanning such a large geographical region, and by the fact that people of the Indian sub-continent constituted a distinct group when compared to populations from other parts of the world,’ said Pragna I. Patel.



The study analysed 500,000 genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups from 13 states. All the individuals were from six-language families and traditionally upper and lower castes and tribal groups. “The genetics proves that castes grew directly out of tribe-like organizations during the formation of the Indian society.”

“Impossible to distinguish between castes and tribes since their genetics proved they were not systematically different.”

-”Reconstructing Indian Population History”

- David Reich, Kumarasamy Thangaraj, Nick Patterson, Alkes L. Price & Lalji Singh

- 2009



Moreover, there are other DNA lineages found in good numbers in West Asia like R1*, R1b3,J*, J2f, I, G and E which are in total more than 53% population of west Asia. These arevirtually absent from India (Sahoo). Had people migrated from West Asia to India,these haplogroups would also have arrived into India. This evidence proves that J2 did notarrive from West Asia, because no lineage can ever migrate without other lineages alsomigrating along with it from the place of origin or expansion. On the other hand nearly all of the Indian male lineages like F*, L1, H (M-69), K2, C5, C*, R1a (M-17) etc. are found inWest Asia, proving a definite Indian migration to West Asia. The HIV protective gene, whichis found in West Asia, and Central Asia too, is absent from India (Majumder and Dey, 2001).Thus on no account, any migration from West Asia to India can be supported.



Sengupta (2006) showed that J2 is well distributed in Indian population.Sengupta et al (2006) found that the haplogroup J2 had a quite high variance, and hence deep time-depthin Indian tribes and castes too. Moreover the frequency is higher in the Dravidian speakingsouth Indians (19%) than the Indo-European speaking north Indians (11%). This destroys theAryan migration into India from West Asia hypothesis of Bellwood (2003 and 2005). The inference what we can derive from Sengupta and colleagues study’s data is that J2 haplogroup originated in India during Last Glacial Maximum, and migrated out of India whenclimate permitted. J2 is 18.7% in south Pakistan, the central place of Indus civilization.Lineage J2 and its derivatives are 23% in Iran and 22.2% in Turkey. (Regueiro et al.2006).But their variances are less than in India. Semino (2004) gives 18,000 ybp as the time of origin of J2. The variance was also high indicating indigenous origin of the haplogroup in India.J2 as well as its sub-clade J2b2 show a decreasing variance from India to the Balkans.



Sahoo et al had actually written the following words:“The perennial concept of people, language, and agriculture arriving to India together through thenorthwest corridor does not hold up to close scrutiny.Recent claims for a linkage of haplogroups J2, L, R1a,and R2 with a contemporaneous origin for the majority of the Indian castes’ paternal lineages from outside the subcontinent are REJECTED, although our findings do support a local origin of haplogroups F* and H.” .They also rule out arrivals from Southwest Asia because West Asian haplogroups (like Y-Hg G) are not found in India.



Kivisild’s findings (2003) too had shown that humans could not have arrived from West Asia into Indiabecause of lack of West Asian Y-hgs E, G, I, J* and J2f. Kivisild et al wrote,“When compared with European and Middle Eastern populations (Semino et al. 2000), Indians (i) share with themclades J2 and M173 derived sister groups R1b and R1a, the latter of which is particularly frequent in India; and (ii) lack or show amarginal frequency of clades E, G, I, J*, and J2f.”



There is a fundamental unity of mtDNA lineages in India, in spite of the extensive cultural and linguistic diversity, pointing to a relatively small founding group of females in India. Most of the mtDNA diversity observed in Indian populations is between individuals within populations; there is no significant structuring of haplotype diversity by socio-religious affiliation, geographical location of habitat or linguistic affiliation.- Scientists Susanta Roychoudhury and thirteen others studying 644 samples of mtDNA from ten Indian ethnic groups.



Dravidian” authorship of the Indus-Sarasvati civilization rejected indirectly, since it noted, “Our data are also more consistent with a peninsular origin of Dravidian speakers than a source with proximity to the Indus….” They found, in conclusion, “overwhelming support for an Indian origin of Dravidian speakers.”The frequencies of R2 seems to mirror the frequencies of R1a (i.e. both lineages are strong and weak in the same social and linguistic subgroups). This may indicate that both R1a and R2 moved into India at roughly the same time. R2 is very rare in Europe.

Sanghamitra Sengupta, L. Cavalli-Sforza, Partha P. Majumder, and P. A. Underhill. – 2006.



A (2009) study headed by geneticist Swarkar Sharma, collated information for 2809 Indians (681 Brahmins, and 2128 tribals and schedule castes). The results showed “no consistent pattern of the exclusive presence and distribution of Y-haplogroups to distinguish the higher-most caste, Brahmins, from the lower-most ones, schedule castes and tribals”. Brahmins from West Bengal showed the highest frequency (72.22%) of Y-haplogroups R1a1* hinting that it may have been a founder lineage for this caste group. The authors found it significant that the Saharia tribe of Madhya Pradesh had not only 28.07% R1a1, but also 22.8% R1a*, out of 57 people, with such a high percentage of R1a* never having been found before. Based on STR variance the estimated age of R1a* in India was 18,478 years, and for R1a1 it was 13,768 years.In its conclusions the study proposed “the autochthonous origin and tribal links of Indian Brahmins” as well as “the origin of R1a1* … in the Indian subcontinent”.

S. Sharma, argued for an Indian origin of R1a1 lineage among Brahmins, by pointing out the highest incidence of R1a*, ancestral clade to R1a1, among Kashmiri Pandits (Brahmins) and Saharias, an Indian tribe.

- Sharma et al 2009



The study analysed 500,000 genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups from 13 states. All the individuals were from six-language families and traditionally upper and lower castes and tribal groups. “The genetics proves that castes grew directly out of tribe-like organizations during the formation of the Indian society.”

“Impossible to distinguish between castes and tribes since their genetics proved they were not systematically different.”

-”Reconstructing Indian Population History”

- David Reich, Kumarasamy Thangaraj, Nick Patterson, Alkes L. Price & Lalji Singh

- 2009



Underhill and colleagues (2009) presented a detailed study of R1a lineages.

Theyfound that R1a is oldest in India. This lineage started expanding from Gujarat about 16,000years back. By 14,000 years back or earlier, it reached the Ganga Valley and Indus Valley.Then people carrying R1a genes migrated out of India, through Afghanistan and Tajikistan,reaching Central Asia. From Central Asia they entered East Europe. They inhabited thePontic-Caspian area. Then they populated those areas which are inhabited today by Slavicand Baltic speaking people



Team working on the same topic included Sengupta, King, Cavalli-Sforza, Underhilland colleagues. They showed that R (especially R1a1 and R2) diversity in India is indigenousin origin and does not support hypothesis of immigration from Central Asia or anywhere outside. R1a prevalence is not only high in Indo-European speaking Punjab, south Pakistan and Ganga Valley, but also in Chenchu and Koya tribes of south India (Kivisildet al.200



Oppenheimer (2003) also had supported Indian origin of R1a which is also called M17 in

genetic circles. He wrote, “And sure enoug

h we find highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, north India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 isnot only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia but diversity characterizes itspresence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as amarker of a ‘male Aryan Invasion of India.’ Study of the geographical distribution and thediversity of genetic branches and stems again suggests that Ruslan, along with his son M17,arose early in South Asia, somewhere near India”.

# 3. Giggsy Says:

December 9th, 2011 at 10:41 am



http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/7/47/figure/F1?highres=y



To sum up we conclude that, because of its very high frequency and diversity, haplogroup O-M95 had an in-situ origin among the Indian Austro-Asiatics, particularly among the Mundaris, not in Southeast Asia as envisaged earlier. Given the large estimate of TMRCA, our study suggests that the Mundari populations are one of the earliest settlers in the Indian Subcontinent.

# 4. Razib Khan Says:

December 9th, 2011 at 1:31 pm



wow giggsy, lots of shit larded around a few flecks of gold. YOU’RE BANNED!!! :-)



What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Virendra - 10-11-2012

This was a good summary citing multiple sources. Thanks


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Virendra - 12-01-2012

Not really on AIT/OIT but confirms a late outward migration from India.



http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/features/study-traces-modern-gypsy-bloodline-to-india/article4150910.ece



Hyderabad, Nov. 30:



What do the Roma, the gypsy people of modern Europe, and the Dalits of north-western India have in common? You will be surprised to know, that they share a common ancestry.



The origin and migration of the Roma Gypsy as well as their lineage have been subjects of curiosity for anthropologists. There is no archaeological evidence of the early Romanis and historical documentation of these populations is scarce.



Genetic studies done by an international team of scientists led by Kumarasamy Thangaraj of the Hyderabad-based Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology has thrown some light on the subject. The study concluded that the aboriginal scheduled caste and scheduled tribe population of north-western India, traditionally referred to as Doma and also Dalits, are the most likely ancestral population of the modern European Roma.



The conclusion was made after screening of about 10,000 males around the world, including 7,000 from 205 ethnic population of India, to discern a precise ancestral source of the European Romani population. Based on the genetic signatures existing on the Y chromosome, every male could be assigned to a specific group (haplogroup), hence the paternal lineage can be traced, using these signatures.



In human populations, the Y chromosome is passed on from father to son. Therefore, all the males of a family or a population evolved from a single founder male will possess the same Y chromosome. The study, by matching the haplogroups of the Roma and the India tribes, found similarity and contiguity that led to the conclusion that the Domas or dalits are the ancestral population, explained Thangaraj.



Another significant conclusion was that the early Romanis migrated from India to Europe around 1,405 years ago.



The findings establish similarities between Roma and Doma ethnicities, and lay to rest the theory of inhabitants from Indo-Gangetic plain and Punjab being the ancestors of the Roma Gypsies, said George van Driem, a linguist from the University of Berne, Switzerland, in the study published in PLoS, a open source journal.



Ch. Mohan Rao, Director, CCMB, said the study provides DNA-based evidence that support the idea that north-western part of India might be the original place for Roma populations. Similar studies from the lab have provided information about the population structure of India, African origin of Siddi populations, etc.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Regards,

Virendra


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 01-11-2013

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/caste-system-an-indigenous-invention-in-south-india/article4290662.ece


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 01-11-2013

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/caste-system-an-indigenous-invention-in-south-india/article4290662.ece



Caste system: an indigenous invention in South India?



D. BALASUBRAMANIAN

SHARE · COMMENT (2) · PRINT · T+



The HIndu Well established: A recent paper concludes that social stratification was already present among the Adivasis of Tamil Nadu well before the ‘Aryan’ migration. Photo G.N. Rao

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science and technology



Patrilineage and demographic events seem to have brought in social strata and restricted gene pools, not external intervention



What is the origin of the caste system in India? This has been a contentious subject in the history of our country. Was this an import from outside? A strong group of scholars think that it was the doing of the people who came from West Asia who migrated and settled here around 3000 – 4000 years ago.



This ‘external’ or ‘subjugation’ model has been the received wisdom. On the other hand, there are other scholars who suggest it to be the result of “cultural diffusion” among the original inhabitants themselves (anthropologists use the hard-to-pronounce term autochthones, meaning literally sons of the soil, to describe them).



Not imported



In other words, social hierarchy or stratification is not an imported imposition but an indigenous invention. This alternate model would then posit the caste system to have been with us be much earlier, namely in people who were already in India in the Pleistocene era, between 30,000 – 10,000 years ago.



How does one address this question of the origin of the caste system in India?



A recent paper by G. Arun Kumar (of the Genographic Laboratory of Madurai Kamaraj University (MKU) Madurai) and others, published in the Journal PLoS ONE on November 28, 2012 (accessible free online at <PLOS ONE 7(11): e50269.doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0050269>) has taken a combination of genetic and anthropological analysis to address this question.



And it concludes that social stratification was already present among the Adivasis or tribal groups of Tamil Nadu well before the ‘Aryan’ migration.



In other words, it was and has been an indigenous invention.



I asked Professor Ramasamy Pitchappan, the Principal investigator of this project about the details of this study, its methods, results and logic behind the analysis and the conclusions. Prof. Pitchappan was earlier at MKU for long years, and is now at the Chettinad Academy of Research and Education, Chennai.



He has been working on the Genographic project for quite some time. He pointed out that they took advantage of two important facts. One is the anthropological fact that the caste system is sustained by patrilineage. In other words, it runs through, and is sustained by the male lineage through generations.



The second is the genetic fact that fathers pass on their Y chromosomes in the genome only to their sons, and not to daughters. (Mothers have no such chauvinistic piggery. They pass their X chromosomes both to sons and daughters, plus they pass on their cellular energy factories called mitochondria as well, as matrilineage; no sex-based distinction here).



This twin paternal inheritance of restricting the caste designation and the Y chromosome has allowed Pitchappan and collaborators to study over 1,680 people in chosen parts of Tamil Nadu.



Many are tribals living in isolation, practicing hunting/gathering, foraging and seasonal dry land agriculture and marrying strictly endogamously within their own sub-tribes (Paliyan, Pulayar, Irulas, Kadar, Thoda, Vanniyar).



Analysis of their Y chromosomes across generations, and also of their socio-cultural habits was done by the researchers.



This was further compared with non-tribals (for example Brahmins, Sourashtrians, Vadamas, who are thought to be of Indo- European linguistic group).



Revealing results



The results were revealing. They found strong evidence for genetic structure associated primarily with the mode of subsistence; in other words, fathers passed on their occupation and way of life to their sons.



Plus, since the group analyzed specifically one part of the Y chromosome that does not get diluted by recombination, they could do what geneticists refer as coalescence analysis, which allowed them to understand the genetic ancestry of traits and habits.



This let them suggest that social stratification of these indigenous sons of the soil had already occurred between 4000 to 6000 years ago, well before the West Asian influx.



The authors note that “the overall Y-chromosome patterns, the time depth of population diversifications and the period of differentiation were best explained by the emergence of agricultural technology in South India”.



In other words, population differentiation occurred well before the ‘Varna’ caste system. Patrilineage and demographic events seem to have brought in social strata and restricted gene pools, not external intervention.



Chromosomes tell us the genetic history or parentage. Demography tells us how people divided themselves or mixed with one another and brought forth generations. Factors such as climate history, invention and use of tools and technology, and related methods brought people together and made them stay or move in groups.



Culture and sociology have isolated and grouped people into stratified societies, restricting them into “gene pools” which is another way of saying ‘castes’.



Finally, look at the irony of it all. After all, mating and marriage is the mixing of genes; the more diverse such mixing, the greater the variety and enrichment of traits. Genetics tells us that the whole world is but one family, a point that the Maha Upanishad furthered by stating ayam bandhurayam neti ganana laghuchetasam udaracharitanam tu vasudhaiva kutumbakam (Only small men discriminate saying: One is a relative; the other is a stranger.



For those who live magnanimously the entire world constitutes but a family). Yet, what a caste or any such social pigeonholing does is to restrict this width of choice from an ocean into a gene pool or even a pond!



dbala@lvpei.org


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 01-15-2013

Al Shibi clan of the Quraish to which Mahomet belonged are directly descended out of Gujarat which was the geographic epicentre for the spread of Indic r1a1 into Arabia. The European clades of R1a1 in contrast are descended from Iran.



Just to clarify, I do not believe that the Indic transformed into monotheists, I do believe there were certain clans co-opted by the Western Empire..



Quote:"Gatekeeping and custody are synonymous. It is a service of the Sacred House, opening and locking its doors. This was bestowed on Tasm, a tribe of Aad before Quraish. It passed to Khuza'a, then Qusai, who gave it to his son Abdul Dar, who handed it over to his son Othman. It shifted from one person to another until it rested with their nephew Shaiba. It is still inherited by their ancestors up to the present day. The Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him) handed the key to Bani Shaiba in' the year of the conquest of Makkah AI-Mukarramah, and said, "Take it, O Bani Talha, eternally up to the Day of Resurrection, and it will not be taken from you unless by an unjust, oppressive tyrant". (12)



[color="#0000FF"]According to the below Arab DNA Forum one member of one of the custodians of the Holy Ka'bah (Member of the Bani Shaiba Family) his YDNA results came as



R1a1a



M6740 Al-Shibi Al-Qurashi
[/color]



Quote: Bani Shaiba

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bani_Shaiba

The Bani Shaiba (Arabic: Banī Shaybah بني شيبه) are an Islamic tribe that hold the keys to the Kaaba. The members of the tribe greet visitors into the Kaaba during the cleaning ceremony and clean the interior together with the visitors.

History



This was bestowed on Tasm, a tribe of Aad before Quraysh. It passed to Khuza'a, then Qusai, who gave it to his son Abdul Dar, who handed it over to his son Othman. It shifted from one person to another until it rested with their nephew Shaiba. It is still inherited by their successors up to the present day.[citation needed] Muhammad, the Islamic prophet, handed the keys to Bani Shaiba in the year of the conquest of Mecca, and said, "Take it, O Bani Talha, eternally up to the Day of Resurrection, and it will not be taken from you unless by an unjust, oppressive tyrant"[citation needed]



Quote:Abdul Muttalib

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Muttalib

Shaybah ibn Hāshim (Arabic: شيبة ابن هاشم عبد المطّلب‎; ca. 497 – 578), better known as 'Abdul Muṭṭalib or 'Abd al-Muṭṭalib, since he was raised by his uncle Muṭṭalib,[1] was the grandfather of Islamic prophet Muḥammad.



Early life

His father was Hāshim ibn `Abd Manāf and his mother was Salmah bint `Amr from the Banū Najjār tribe in Yathrib (later called, Madinah). On his father's side he belonged to the distinguished Banū Hāshim clan, a subgroup of the Quraish tribe of Makkah which traced their genealogy to Ismā'īl and Ibrāhīm. His father died while doing business in Gaza, before he was born.



He was given the name "Shaybah" meaning 'the ancient one' or 'white-haired' for the streak of white through his jet-black hair, and is sometimes also called Shaybat al-Ḥamd ("The white streak of praise"). After his father's death he was raised in Yathrib with his mother and her family until about the age of eight, when his uncle Muṭṭalib went to see him and asked his mother Salmah bint `Amr to entrust Shaybah to his care. Salmah was unwilling to let her son go and Shaybah refused to leave his mother without her consent. Muṭṭalib then pointed out that the possibilities Yathrib had to offer were incomparable to Makkah. Salmah was impressed with his arguments, so she agreed to let him go. Upon first arriving in Makkah, the people assumed the unknown child was Muṭṭalib's slave, giving him the name `Abdu'l-Muṭṭalib (slave of Muṭṭalib). When Muṭṭalib died, Shaybah succeeded him as the chief of the Banū Hāshim clan.

The Year of the Elephant



According to Muslim tradition, the Ethiopian governor of Yemen, Abrahah al-Ashram, envied the Ka'bah's reverence among the Arabs and, being a Christian, he built a cathedral in Sana'a and ordered pilgrimage be made there. The order was ignored and someone desecrated (some saying in the form of defecation) the cathedral. Abrahah decided to avenge this act by demolishing the Ka'bah and he advanced with an army towards Mecca.



There were many elephants in Abrahah's army and the year came to be known as 'Ām al-Fīl (the Year of the Elephant), beginning a trend for reckoning the years in Arabia which was used until 'Umar ibn al Khaṭṭāb replaced it with the Islamic Calendar.



When news of the advance of Abrahah's army came, the Arab tribes of Quraysh, Banū Kinānah, Banū Khuzā'ah and Banū Hudhayl united in defense of the Ka'bah. A man from the Ḥimyar tribe was sent by Abrahah to



What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - rhytha - 08-23-2013

[size="2"]We analysed the genetic structure of ∼1000 samples representing 27 ethnic groups settled in Tamil Nadu, south India, derived from two linguistic families (Dravidians and Indo–Europeans) representing four religious groups (Hinduism, Islam, Chris- tianity and Jainism) using 11 mtDNA markers. Out of 27 ethnic groups, four are in situ populations (Anglo-Indian, Labbai Muslim, Nadar Christian and south Indian Jain) and two are migrants (Gypsy and north Indian Jain) from north India to Tamil Nadu, and 21 are native ethnic groups. Six of the markers we used were monomorphic (HaeIII663, HpaI3592, AluI5176, AluI7025, AluI13262, 9-bp deletion) and five markers were polymorphic (DdeI10394, AluI10397, HinfI12308, HincII13259 and HaeIII16517). Haplogroup frequencies, genetic affinities and admixture analysis are based on the genotype data of poly- morphic markers observed in these populations. Haplogroup frequencies indicate that various ethnic groups entered Tamil Nadu during different time periods. Genetic affinities and admixture estimates revealed that the ethnic groups possessing advanced knowledge of farming cluster in a branch ©, and could be the late arrived settlers as agriculture, was introduced to this region at about 5 to 3 thousand years ago. In situ ethnic groups appear to have arisen at various times as a result of the prevailing dominant socio-cultural forces. Hierarchical Hindu caste system created many ethnic groups in the history of its existence; some of them became isolated for considerable period of time. Over all, among Tamil ethnic groups, in spite of caste systems’ rigidity, built in flexibility in the system in the form of hypergamy and hypogamy had allowed maternal gene flow between them.[/size]



http://www.ias.ac.in/jgenet/Vol90No2/191.pdf