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What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Husky - 02-02-2014 Not about AIT. Post 1/2 www.newscientist.com/article/mg22129542.600-neanderthalhuman-sex-bred-light-skins-and-infertility.html via rajeev2004.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/whites-are-descended-from-neanderthals.html (Wasn't it already long hypothesised that neanderthals may have interbred with homo sapiens? Is it that now's the first time they have genetic evidence?) IMO the article's interesting not for the conclusions that Rajeev initially drew from it (especially since the subsequent article that he found stated that all non-Africans are thought to genetically be between 1%-3% Neanderthal - though only European and E Asian genomes were mentioned as having been considered in the study - and that the E Asians in the study had on avg more Neanderthal DNA than Europeans), but for the red bit below. Quote:Neanderthal-human sex bred light skins and infertility economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21595403-genetic-contribution-neanderthal-man-made-modern-humanity via rajeev2004.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/more-on-interspecies-hanky-panky-of-out.html Quote:Human evolution Before continuing, first the aside. Concerning these 2 statements in the 2nd article: Quote:1. "The study published in Science, by Benjamin Vernot and Joshua Akey of the University of Washington, in Seattle, reaches similar conclusions to Dr Sankararamanââ¬â¢s. Dr Vernot and Dr Akey hunted down Neanderthal DNA in the genomes of 665 Europeans and East Asians. They, too, found evidence of its having inserted itself into genes associated with the skin, and that not all of the newly arrived genetic material is helpful to its current bearers." Anyway. The opening statement that all non-Africans tend to have 1% to 3% Neanderthal DNA... yet most of the article only speaks of Europeans and E Asians. What is the % in native Australians or native Americans or other Asian (incl. Indians) or Middle East? Were these even studied? But surely they must have been, else why generalise for "all non-Africans"? Moving on. Want to draw attention again to the 3 studies mentioned in the first link, in order to discuss the red bit - which I think is rather interesting: Quote:1. "In one new study of 1000 human genomes, Sriram Sankararaman and David Reich of Harvard Medical School and colleagues found that Neanderthal DNA is most common in regions of the genome with the greatest genetic variability, making them a prime target for natural selection. While Neanderthal DNA may make up only 1.6 to 1.8 per cent of the Eurasian genome, it punches above its weight in terms of biological impact, says Reich (Nature, DOI: 10.1038/nature12961)." Notice how the first 2 studies specifically went looking for and noticed Neanderthal DNA. The *third* study does not mention anything about neanderthal DNA (and was not looking for it) as per what's in the news article. All the text says about the 3rd study is that the DNA analysis of one person who lived in Stone Age Europe about 7000 years ago had genes that suggest his skin was dark. It is *NewScientist* that has decided to tie the discoveries in studies 1 and 2 about Neanderthals, into what study 3 says, and where/how Neanderthal genetics may fit into the picture that study 3 reveals. Study 3's actual discovery in itself - which said nothing about Neanderthals though - is what's really interesting: they found a native of Europe 7000 years ago that likely had dark skin. And 7000 years is not at all long ago: E.g. "Kurgan culture" in Southern Russia according to Elst in his Sati article was "definitely IE": Quote:From archaeological excavations in Southern Russia it appears that widows were already climbing the funeral pyres of their deceased husbands in the fourth millennium before our chronology, in the so-called Kurgan-culture, an apparantly proto-Scythian and definitely Indo-European culture.While cases of "Sati" like practices among them occurred in the 4th millennium BCE, Kurgan kultur's origins are itself dated to 5th millennium BCE. Which is between 6000 and 7000 years ago. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan Quote:Those scholars who follow Gimbutas identify a "Kurgan culture" as reflecting an early Indo-European ethnicity which existed in the steppes and southeastern Europe from the 5th to 3rd millennia BC. Anyway. Confirmed: no Neanderthal stuff mentioned in the paper on the dark-skinned European - nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature12960.html (doi.org/q74) Quote:Derived immune and ancestral pigmentation alleles in a 7,000-year-old Mesolithic European Grief, every interesting journal article requires membership/pay access. Why can't this information be free for all to read? [color="#0000FF"]Question: What bearing does the time-frame have on the common white-supremacist version of PIE-ism: that Proto-Indo-Europeans were "white". (Or that Europe is "white" even originally. Etc.*) Am I right in thinking that such data actually indicates both an upper limit (and at least one lower limit - to be found in the IE Kurgans) on an all-white PIE population in the urheimat scenario?[/color] I mean, there's not much time for dark European (from 7000 years ago) to turn all-white in time for - as white supremacists claim - an all-white PIE or IE=post-PIE Kurgan kultur (from between 7000 and 6000 years ago). And their darkness / the frequency of dark Europeans is only going to be greater *before* that - which says something about any PIE that is set earlier - so... [* NewScientist choosing to tie the Neanderthal studies into the "Dark-skinned European" study - with the "maybe they started Europeanising by getting straight hair at this period"* - seems almost to imply a subconcious need to clearly delineate in some other way between Europeans and Africans. Perhaps since 7000 years ago is rather all too recent?] Quote:His genes suggest his skin was dark (Nature, doi.org/q74). It may be that the Neanderthal keratin affected early Eurasians' hair instead, perhaps straightening it. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Husky - 02-02-2014 Post 2/2 The fact that study 3 was indeed conducted independent of Neanderthal considerations is also apparent from another article found linked off the Rajeev2004 blog, in a comment this time. It has more to say: rajeev2004.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/ns-rajaram-on-aryan-debate.html Quote:non-carborundum said...Don't know how Non-carbo managed to leave out the most interesting bits in the article: independent.co.uk/news/science/revealed-first-ol-blue-eyes-is-7000-years-old-and-lived-in-a-cave-9086310.html Quote:Revealed: First Olââ¬â¢ Blue Eyes is 7,000 years old and was a caveman living in Spain So, to revise the interesting points made in this, the more interesting news article (i.e. assuming internal consistency): Quote:1. "A DNA analysis of the manââ¬â¢s tooth has also revealed that although he was more closely related to modern-day Scandinavians that to any other European group, he had the dark-skinned genes of an African, though scientists do not know his precise skin tone." Things one can conclude or infer from the above statements: - From point 5, we know the origin of the blue eyes of the Stone Ager in Spain of 7000 yrs ago traces to the gene pool of his blue-eyed ancestors in the Black Sea of 10,000 yrs ago. - His African genes for skin colour would have similarly come from the ancestral population in the Black Sea that he derived his eye colour from (as opposed to having an injection of fresh African genetic input sometime between his lineage travelling from the Black Sea to Spain): since he has blue eyes, and blue eyes are supposedly super-recessive, so both sides of his parentage (all his ancestors) need to be carrying the blue eye alleles: i.e. both sides should trace back to that unique Black Sea ancestral gene pool of blue eyes. It's either that, or the contention that all blue eyes trace to that Black Sea population from 10,000 years ago is wrong. [Unless blue eyes are suddenly super dominant for this exceptional case? Let's stick with the rule instead.] So as a result, can conclude that it's highly likely he got his African genes for skin colour from the Black Sea population too. Which means they had dark people among them also: - Note, the article says about the 7000 year old Stone Ager in Spain: "he had the dark-skinned genes of an African, though scientists do not know his precise skin tone" but it also quotes Carles Lalueza-Fox of the Institute of Evolutionary Biology in Barcelona (one of the people who did the study and wrote the paper on it) as saying the Stone Age man's genes indicated that "he had dark skin". Dark is a relative word, what do they mean? Let's hypothesise: dark with respect to a European. (And possibly as dark as his African genes for skin colour would imply, since they keep mentioning that he had "African genes" for skin pigmentation.) In any case, his ancestral gene pool in the Black Sea was not uniformly "white" yet at the time his ancestors left in the direction of Spain: i.e. the Black Sea population had darker individuals (and perhaps they were all dark, considering he was so still - and for some 3000 years after leaving them behind: have they sequenced more Stone Agers of this period and place to know if any were yet "white" at this point in time?) In any case, we know the Black Sea population 10,000 years ago - the ancestral gene pool/home of blue eyes - were not all white then. - Point 6 states that the Stone Age European's lactose intolerance* - not having the genes to comfortably ingest milk as an adult - is "a key sign" that he had no contact with domesticated livestock. It seems to me to be a fair indication that he may be of a community that also had not yet domesticated livestock. And indeed, that seems to be what they imply with the statement "Mesolithic hunter-gatherer rather than a farmer" - that his whole community was not familiar with farming (he was still foraging etc). Yet at the same time, the Scandinavian genome is 'fixed' already: being sufficiently distinct to distinguish him as particularly Scandinavian otherwise: since the man from 7000 years ago is specifically stated as being more related genetically to Scandinavians than to other Europeans. [Note the article does not specifically allude to Finnish or Saami people but "Scandinavians" and "northern Europeans". The IE Scandinavians seem to be more populous and the Finno-Ugric Scandinavians more scarce: Finland appears to have 1/5th the total population of Scandinavia. (Some Norwegians and perhaps Swedes are Saami, but some Finnish people are Swedes - so I'm hoping these last 2 cancel out.) What proto-language group do they suppose the Stone Ager was? This is relevant since his genome is "otherwise" - i.e. despite his African genes for skin colour - quite part of the "Scandinavian/northern European" genome.] * On lactose intolerance and what it means/doesn't mean in genetics: - evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/070401_lactose - sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/06/050602012109.htm - npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/12/27/168144785/an-evolutionary-whodunit-how-did-humans-develop-lactose-tolerance which further mentions a relevant instance: Quote:An Evolutionary Whodunit: How Did Humans Develop Lactose Tolerance?So, 2000 years after the Stone Age genomically-Scandinavian Spanyard that we've already met - the one with the blue eyes but dark skin and lactose intolerance - there's remains of another man in Spain with lactase persistence -> domesticated livestock -> (presumably) neolithic farming. ("Have we found PIE in the interrim?" [Since IIRC neolithic farming in Europe is associated with the spread of IE]) - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance Quote:Lactose intolerance Anyway. So there existed a dark European some 7000 years ago, with blue eyes, who was distinctly closest to modern Scandinavian in terms of his genome and found living in Spain (far off the course of a C-Asian urheimat) - whereto his ancestors had wandered from the Black Sea - who was Lactose Intolerant <-> "a key sign he had little to no contact with domesticated livestock" AND who was not a farmer but a hunter-gatherer? (Doesn't seem to fit Renfrew's Anatolian Hypothesis for PIE, or its timeframe ... unless I misunderstood as usual.) [color="#0000FF"]- So is this European - with dark skin and Scandinavian genome - supposed to be a pre-PIE, post-PIE, or PIE European (in that last case: is Spain the urheimat then)? [Note that each of the 3 considerations has implications and specific constraints associated with their theorising.] - Or is he maybe non-IE? Like the Norwegians with Basque-like, non-IE, Iberian input as per that old article on Stephen Oppenheimer's findings concerning Britain's Basque-like non-IE ancestry: [/color] spiegel.de/international/british-irish-brotherhood-a-united-kingdom-maybe-a-470186.html Quote:In Dr. Oppenheimerââ¬â¢s reconstruction of events, the principal ancestors of todayââ¬â¢s British and Irish populations arrived from Spain about 16,000 years ago, speaking a language related to Basque. And again the question: what do these things have to say - if anything - about an all-white PIE urheimat? (Or even how intrinsically related the Scandinavian genome is to the IE language of its speakers.) And what is the upper time limit then for an all-white PIE urheimat? And what did the people of the "definitely IE" Kurgan culture of the 5th millennia BCE* of Southern Russia - that's around 7000 years ago too - look like? Just asking. Have they re-sequenced more European bodies from a timeframe of around 7000 years before present, such as say those of the Kurgans etc? Wonder what they look like? Hmmm, PIE (and consequently the urheimat) is apparently postulated to have existed between 4500-2500 years BCE: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_hypothesis Quote:Most estimates from Indo-Europeanists date PIE between 4500 and 2500 BC, with the most probable date falling right around 3700 BC. It is unlikely that late PIE (even after the separation of the Anatolian branch) post-dates 2500 BC, since Proto-Indo-Iranian is usually dated to just before 2000 BC. On the other hand, it is not very likely that early PIE predates 4500 BC, because the reconstructed vocabulary strongly suggests a culture of the terminal phase of the Neolithic bordering on the early Bronze Age. So now I have another stupid question: If the dark-skinned Stone Age European with the blue eyes from about 7000 years ago has a genome generally distinguishable as specifically "Scandinavian/northern European", how come (if the Scandinavian genome is not non-IE) his type went into the alleged PIE urheimat ("PIE homeland") as a distinct Scandinavian genome 6500 years ago (4500 BCE) and re-emerged from it as a still-recognisable Scandinavian genome when this linguistic branch of IE (Nordic/Germanic ancestor) formed in time from the shared PIE language? That is, 7000 yrs ago, the genome he had is largely recognisable as "Scandinavian/northern European" and not other European. Yet, PIE is estimated at earliest to 6500 years ago (though 3700 BCE is preferred which then is 5700 years ago). The story was always that PIE is a divergence (split) from common origins and not a convergence/meeting place of different populations/communities that took to a common language. So if PIE split in time into various proto IE subgroups which eventually split into Scandinavian speaking group + other IE language subgroups, how come the Scandinavian population's genome is recognisably the same after as before PIE? Did they not mix with PIE speakers in the ur-heimat, that afterward their genome is still peculiarly related to/identifiable with their blue-eyed dark-skinned ancestral relative from pre-PIE, 7000 years ago? To repeat: Did they not mix with PIE speakers in the ur-heimat - then where's the common genetic ancestral relation between IE Europeans, since that's what's always at least implied by IE Studies people who as a consequence start speaking of "our [shared]oryan ancestors" for PIE/urheimat and of "our cousins" for other IE speaking populations? That is, *before* PIE, the genome of 7000 yr old Stone Ager is already identifiable as Scandinavian and not 'other European' - i.e. his genome is identifiably related to *modern*, post-PIE Scandinavians.... <- There's a "uniquely Scandinavian genomic continuity"/ a unique segregation of the Scandinavian genome from other (IE and non-IE) Europeans both before and after PIE. Frustrating: I can't formulate the question properly. Of course the Anatolian and Kurgan hypotheses are just two of the PIE hypotheses. A less popular one (not generally accepted) is the Paleolithic Continuity Theory, something about stone age man in Europe already being IE. Essentially something about deeper time frames: that IE developed shortly after humans left from Africa and invaded - I mean - migrated into Asia and Europa. - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_hypothesis - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_Urheimat_hypotheses Check the locus of PIE homeland=urheimat and the timeframes for each theory in the last. - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Continuity_Theory (Interesting that none of them mentions India and barely mentions Iran - everything is Euro-centric onlee: about where their [European] ancestors came from, how their ancestors are interrelated, the historical geographic movement [mainly within Europe] of their ancestors.) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Continuity_Theory Quote:The PCT posits that the advent of Indo-European languages should be linked to the arrival of Homo sapiens in Europe and Asia from Africa in the Upper Paleolithic.[2] Employing "lexical periodization", Alinei arrives at a timeline deeper than even that of Colin Renfrew's Anatolian hypothesis.[3](PCT page gives no information on what PIE is supposed to be.) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Paleolithic Quote:dates to between 50,000 and 10,000 years ago, roughly coinciding with the appearance of behavioral modernity and before the advent of agriculture. But: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_Urheimat_hypotheses Quote:The Paleolithic Continuity Theory, with an origin before the 10th millennium BCE. Uh, I'm afraid pushing things further back is going to result in still larger numbers of (IE / PIE / non-IE) Europeans being dark .... White supremacists won't be happy. :uh-oh: Too bad. I really want to know now what all the Europeans looked like - especially at the variously postulated "urheimat" sites - at 10,000, 7,000, 5,000 and every date ever claimed for PIE. Should be fun. I think this neanderthal theory could be very important for Europe to bolster its uniqueness again. Sad (for them) that the E Asians and other non-Africans are equally unique in just this matter, also having neanderthal DNA. But since, you know, Neanderthals were "uniquely" found in Europe - as per the so-far discovered fossil record - maybe that will allow a specifically-European input for all of Eurasia / non-Africa. Where specifically-European will be defined as Neanderthal and not Homo Sapiens. This is turning into a bad comedy. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Husky - 02-04-2014 The important posts are the 2 preceding this one. This one's just an addendum. The Independent.co.uk news article said: Quote:the gene [for blue eyes] had travelled across Europe before the shift from hunting to farming, which is known to have spread from the east [Black Sea] to the west. One already knew blue eyes couldn't be claimed as an 'oryan innovation/uniquely oryan/oryan genetics', of course: Basques, Saami, Finnish and the Estonians among the Baltics are non-IE speakers. And at least the Finnish have high frequencies of blue eyes still, And as seen of the Saami actors in a very famous Saami film, blue eyes occurs among the Saami too. (Would make sense that if it occurs among Finnish, that it should occur among Saami too: not just their language - also called Saami - is to be related to the Suomi language of the Finnish and I think the Estonians*, but the Finnish and Saami populations are considered to be related too I think, though the Saami were heavily discriminated against and persecuted by the invading so-called "white" Scandinavians like Norse, Swedes etc for the crime of seeming too indigenous to Europe. Essentially, they gave the appearance of native European versions of native North Americans, being "circum-polar tribes". In fact, the Icelander Bjork reminds me a bit of Saami. Anyway, the Saami religion - called a Shamanism I think and related to Siberian religion (and some say related to Korean religion and pre-Tengiri Mongolian religion) - seems to be reminiscent of native American religion and even Shinto. * Practically off-topic: I have been told that Finnish (Suomi) has "long consonants" (e.g. a double T - like Indian languages including Samskritam and Tamizh as well as like Japanese). But Estonians apparently have extra-long consonants: triple-T. (I have no idea how you even begin to pronounce a triple-T. :Respekt ![]() I have not heard of W-European languages having long consonants (except when you by coincidence pronounce 2 distinct words together): w-European use of double consonants serves a different purpose. They write double-consonants to indicate that the preceding vowel is short (e.g. hotter gets a double t because if it had only one then it would sound like hoter and rhyme with motor. Instead, the short o in hotter sounds like the short o of bother. hence the double-t. This rule is more universally true in the case of sane W-European languages like Dutch.) Note that the above is different to the use of double-consonants in Skt, Tzh, Japanese, Finnish (and Estonian), where the double character is pronounced as double/as long consonant. From what I understood, where Skt and Tzh differs from Finnish (and presumably Estonian) is that the latter don't have double-s [and perhaps other sibilant cases], where Indian languages do. E.g. Skt does have double-s at least in certain join/sandhi cases. (Tamizh makes prodigious use of double consonants... Note that not all of it is owing to the Prakritic nature of Tzh at all - i.e. not all double-consonants in Tzh is owing to Tamizh Prakritising Skt words. Tamizh words tend to have double-consonants too as far as I know, and even has a tendency to introduce a double consonant at joins of separate words. I can't explain this, it makes sense when you read Tamizh print.) Another possible difference is that Finnish can have double-consonants even after another (different) consonant. Since I found this a bit difficult to imitate* - unless I took my time over the word - I started thinking about whether this occurs in Tzh or Skt. And for the life of me I couldn't come up with any examples. I should keep an eye out for this. Can't think of any cases in JP either, although I've encountered double-consonants less frequently in JP than in Skt or Tzh. * But my inability in this means nothing: I can't even pronounce the Marati double mahaapraaNam in viThThala. I mean, how does that pronunciation even work / how does one even do that??? While Tzh doesn't even have mahaapraaNas (officially), and while I haven't encountered double-mahapraaNas in Skt [yet?], I hear MSS even singing Marati "viThThala" correctly, so it's not like it's a handicap of Tamizh Hindus in general, just my own. :forlorn: Ironically, I never thought about the nature of how long consonants varied from W-European languages that I'm quasi-familiar with not having double-consonants vs how some other languages including our own do have long/double-consonants, until 1. I noticed how pronunciation of Japanese Romaji showed up how that their double consonants worked different from how double consonants in W-European words worked (though I didn't tie it back to Indian languages at that point) and 2. when I was told of the double-consonant feature in Finnish. It was then that the rather obvious struck me at last*: that this was behaviour that Hindus know from their own languages, although my first mental connection to a pre-existing example was Japanese. (*I'm dense that way. Alternatively it may be natural: I never consciously think of how sounds in native languages work, until I am observing pronunciation in other languages.) The important posts are the 2 preceding this one. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Husky - 02-04-2014 Post 4 More spam. On stuff from 2 posts up. The Palaeolithic Continuity Theory (of IE languages and the people speaking them) The one thing that does not add up (in my mind) with other PIE hypotheses is that our African->European Stone Ager from 7000 years ago is already identifiably Scandinavian in genome at that early point in time. On its own - ignoring PIEism - this would mean nothing more than that Europe had already started getting a bit genetically diversified (or at least the Scandinavians did) all the way back 7000 yrs ago. But when considering PIE, his genome being more Scandinavian than other European has a lot of implications. So unless I'm missing something: - That means if he's post PIE, then PIE did not spread with neolithic farming, and indeed farming words would be local "IE" (post-PIE) developments (and not of shared PIE origins in a shared urheimat/homeland). - If he's pre-PIE, then again: his genome goes into the PIE urheimat as mostly Scandinavian and comes out after the PIE urheimat as mostly Scandinavian (unless the Scandinavian genome is not of PIE and their language is borrowed) - If he IS PIE, then - besides Spain being the unexpected urheimat (or the Scandinavian quarter of the urheimat?) - his peculiarly-Scandinavian genome is again distinct in PIE from other European genomes. Unless the Scandinavian genome is argued as the ancestral IE genome from which other Europeans derived. [I'm not even going to bother mentioning Indian and Iranian - they're always afterthoughts to European history telling anyway.] (And other considerations that escape me now.) - If he's non-IE (being Iberian/related to Basques or something, see the link to Oppenheimer 2 posts above again), then Scandinavians are not native IE speakers and borrowed IE. What other options are there? Only those 4, right? The only PIE theory that then still holds good at such an early time is the PCT one - the one about local IE continuity from before 10,000 BCE. Repeating: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_Urheimat_hypotheses Quote:The Paleolithic Continuity Theory, with an origin [presumably of PIE] before the 10th millennium BCE. That way, if 7000 yrs back, the Stone Age hunter-gatherer in Spain had an identifiably Scandinavian genome, his language if it were IE need not have been borrowed: it just traces back to some older time. Does it trace back to the Black Sea population from 10,000 yrs back where the blue eyes came from? (All we know is the Scandinavian Spanyard can be derived from there. But if white supremacists can't date PIE to white skin, they may want to date it to blue eyes: something Oryan being better than nothing. And so need to consider it.) So was that Black Sea area PIE urheimat? Again no clue, but if it was, it still does not work out all that great for oryanism/white supremacists: + it would not be all-white and is perhaps likely to have some unknown frequency of dark people (again: perhaps even all dark - gasp) and be as dark as the 7000 yr old Stone Ager or darker still, since he himself appears (and dark) 3000 years after the Black Sea population where the origins of blue-eyes are to have been attested + stone age accomplishments - not to knock them - are not what the Oryanists had in mind when dreaming up Oryanism. They saw their glorious all-founding ancestors with chariots and horses ("damn it!") and being all heroic with metal weapons etc and swooping in on -what was it- "Vedic Tanks" and stealing women (suppressing hysterical laughter) instead of as hunter-gatherer tribes till way after PIE (when the Stone Ager had moved into Spain). And what about animal domestication skills and all, I ask you? No horsies, no moos, no sheep, no goats? No claims to fame? :Tragic: + And so if chariots and horses (and neolithic farming and a zillion post-Stone Age things etc) were later=post-PIE developments - since our 7000 year old hunter-gatherer was found to have moved off to Spain from the putative Black Sea PIE urheimat of 10,000 yrs Before Present where his tentatively PIE ancestors were from and was still being a hunter-gatherer with no contact with domesticated livestock - then all such post-PIE developments belong to their own local communities. Or else they are borrowed from later developments/radiations of farming knowledge and certain kinds of metal weaponry etc not associated with the spread of IE languages. [This is in contrast to the Anatolian PIE Hypothesis where IE Languages spread with neolithic farming.] Oh Boo-hoo. That is to say, either the Scandinavian genome and the Scandinavian IE language branch go together or they don't and they borrowed the language if the Anatolian Hypothesis is still true. Unless I've missed something. + That means oh so much for local cultural developments of various peoples who were until now lumped into some PIE-ism. Again, unless I'm overlooking the obvious, the PCT version of the PIE theory is the only one that still allows Scandinavians to own their own "IE" language while not contradicting the find of the 7000 yr old dude. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Continuity_Theory Quote:General lines And if you note, all the talk above is about Europa onlee. There's no mention of India and Iran (C-Asia is regarded as Europa's backyard). So the same rules of "continuity from the Palaeolithic" won't apply for India (and probably Iran). I'm sure they - or anyone who hereafter subscribes to PCT - will still insist on some later oryan invasion for India. Maybe the Kurgan Kultur. Oder etwas. (You didn't think they'd let you off the hook, right? You're just brown people. You have no rights. Besides, some modern Indians just *want* a Euro origin - something that I hadn't originally realised before ![]() ![]() What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Husky - 02-04-2014 (Split from previous) Post 5 Oooh, I guessed it right - and how sad to be right (how sad to read the European mind so well): that India/Iran will be declared to be derived while only Europa gets to claim continuity from the Ur-Zeit (=prehistory). They'll argue it logically of course - with reference to "internal PCT logic" (rules are bendable and rewritable only for Europa): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk ![]() Quote:Asian IE languages Oh but someone observes that the Indian version of a 'Palaeolithic Continuity' theory pre-existed the formulation of such a theory for Europe (which last has subrules to negate the Indian case), as accidentally indicated by slights in the following (does it count as some backhanded credit for inspiration? It's all that Indians can expect): Quote:status of PCT(And more dialogue - an interminable page - at the link) (By the way, Brian Sykes was mentioned in that excerpt on Oppenheimer from Spiegel.de that was quoted for the nth time some posts back.) [color="#0000FF"]But Oh isn't this just great? I love it! - Everything can be rewritten. If PCT is right, rules on time for linguistic changes may well have to be rewritten etc. (As long as "Europe is oryan." And tomorrow the Basques too will be oryan.) - Except the one constant: AIT/AMT on India.[/color] So fascinating. I have no issues with Alinei: if he's old and has no time to contemplate Iberia and Iran and I forget that other country's name - oh yeah India (or something). [Nice to know he was interested in China though. That's something isn't it?] But it's amazing how that one rule remains constant. I'm not saying that everyone is consciously biased, but there is something. Anyway it doesn't matter. It's all about Europeans after all. Can't turn the camera to film anything else. Now, based on my own logical reasoning - in Posts 1 and 2 of this set of spam - I personally think the Stone Ager from 7000 years ago bears out PCT*, well certainly more than the other PIE theories, but admittedly I'm not really familiar with PIE-ism. (*It says nothing about India of course. Which of course means the one constant will still apply - as it already was doing - but at least we have a better picture on Europa. And Europa is all that matters in the end, no? Am I wrong?) Hysterisch. En kijk hier 'ns: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Continuity_Theory Quote:Linguist Mario Alinei - University of Utrecht.Utrecht? Niet Italië? Dat had ik dus nóóit kunnen raden... What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Husky - 02-05-2014 Post 6 (The posts numbered 1, 2 and 4 and 5 above are more important than this one. They contain actual content - i.e. all the stuff in blockquotes - stolen from somewhere else.) + PCT's urheimat for PIE sounds like it is all of Europa now (the then-inhabitable parts thereof) with perhaps some overflow onto "central Asia". Very convenient. This will allow a genetically-Scandinavian quarter of Europe, to a genetically Greek quarter, to... etc. + Intriguing how Oppenheimer's conclusion - that British and Irish natives are largely speakers of an indigenous ancestral language related to (the very non-IE) Basque, and that they are genetically related to the Norwegians and the Fries (implying Norse and Fries were 'indigenous' Europeans the way Basques are) - has been turned around to mean that it proves the PCT version of PIE, as seen in: 1. Oppenheimer said: spiegel.de/international/british-irish-brotherhood-a-united-kingdom-maybe-a-470186.html Quote:In Dr. Oppenheimerââ¬â¢s reconstruction of events, the principal ancestors of todayââ¬â¢s British and Irish populations arrived from Spain about 16,000 years ago, speaking a language related to Basque. [color="#0000FF"]ADDED, missed out:[/color] And in that light, it continues with (still from spiegel.de/international/british-irish-brotherhood-a-united-kingdom-maybe-a-470186.html) Quote:ââ¬ÅOnce you have an established population, it is quite difficult to change it very radically,ââ¬Â said Daniel G. Bradley, a geneticist at Trinity College, Dublin. But he said he was ââ¬Åquite agnosticââ¬Â as to whether the original population became established in Britain and Ireland immediately after the glaciers retreated 16,000 years ago, as Dr. Oppenheimer argues, or more recently, in the Neolithic Age, which began 10,000 years ago. 2. PCT proponent construed it as: Quote:Furthermore, the [PCT] theory is actually starting to creep in via the back door - a specific prediction of PCT is the presence of Germanic speakers in Neolithic Britain, and I see that Stephen Oppenheimer has mentioned this in his new book (unfortunately without citation). + And this statement below again - why does it hold? Quote:My own view, FWIW (and NOT Alinei's) - is that while I tend to support his premise about IE being present in Europe by the Mesolithic, there is no a priori reason for assuming that the same holds for India. This, however, is a logical consequence of his theory, since evidently, one of his key arguments is the absence of convincing evidence for a pre-IE substrate in Scandinavia. But in India the population rigorously tried to keep Skt together, consistent, preferrably sounding the same. Defining and defining and defining the grammar. Etc. They also tried to keep the Vedam chanted rather consistently with not too great a variation. And they weren't great fans of the Prakritising of Skt and so maintained Skt in its various forms or "stages" (Vedic, classical etc) even after multiple copies of Prakritas were spun. Seems to me like there was a conscious human force in trying to limit Skt from disappearing and from becoming something else entirely. What I just said proves nothing, of course - other than to observe that Germanic tribes never maintained Gothic etc alongside the modern Germanic languages nor did any Proto-Scandinavian or Proto-Germano-Scandinavian-Celtic survive (forgot the Proto group name for NW languages that one or more PIE models suggested). Whereas India has maintained Skt long after many an official Prakrita died a natural death. I mean to say, there is no consistent pattern of behaviour in Europe vs India. So why do they make such assumptions then? Or maybe it's just another stupid question. I'm just trying to understand their logic in denying that outside of Europe, the Indian and Iranian so-called "IE" languages could have an ancientry indigenous to the subcontinent that goes back just as far. As for the whole Munda and Dravidian substrate threat, well if PCT holds good, then PIE has to have some kind of origins right? It can't forever have had the hallmarks of IE backwards in time. Unless they want to trace it back to the African Urheimat. At some point these languages must have been generated from some origin that is not clearly defined as IE. (Unless they mean to say PIE speakers invented it from some vacuum - from pure silence they started speaking in PIE? Or that they mathematically generated the language after completely dumping whatever language their African or Asian/Sundaland ancestors had spoken in Africa and Asia/Sundaland.) I mean, where do these people draw the line? And what lay beyond that line in pre-Proto-Indo-European (in Renfrew's thesis this pre- population was I think, Anatolian, the pre-Urheimat-Urheimat where the proto-proto speaking ancestors of PIE lived [but still IE], in order to explain why Hittites weren't as far "advanced" in tech as the texts of other IE groups seemed to indicate of said other IE groups). See, if they said that all major ancient language groups have had some level of deep continuity since mankind started in Africa or eventually left Africa, I could sort of follow that type of "all else being equal" type of logic: that Finno-Ugric and PIE and Austro-Asiatic etc were all original branches that some state of Africans in some stage of leaving Africa/entering the neighbouring landmass had generated from their speech in some point in Ur-Zeit (pre-history). But that's not what they're saying. European history and identity begins and ends with Europeans, in Europe (+ a bit of overflow in "white" C Asia), and with IE languages (the Finno-Ugrics and the Basques were always just in the way of grand storytelling, "couldn't they just have been IE?"). It's great they pushed PIE even further back into pre-history where you have even less chance of working out what happened (and I have no problem with earlier timelines - though of course I still want *proof* that no one is just making up a new version of the story to fit the data, and proof remains the one thing no one wants to give - and clearly when there are so many competing hypotheses, I think that's saying something). But how is the Indo-Iranian "subbranch" of IE supposed to be younger than the European branches of the "IE" languages? I mean, that's what they're claiming with PCT, right? That Scandinavian and Germanic (including British-Germanic=English now as a new, 4th ancient Germanic linguistic branch as opposed to 5th or 6th century CE when English was first attested as per BBC docos on the English language) all date into the Stone Age. All European "IE" all date to the Stone Age and before. Yet Skt and Avesta are supposed to be relatively recent from when the Oryans invaded again. Really? Are they serious? Sometimes I think these people are just so far gone in trying to remain consistent to their rules as new data appears that they don't seem to notice the obvious staring them in the face. As for Scandinavian not showing any non-IE substratum and this being proof of PCT (I refer to this next statement): Quote:one of his key arguments is the absence of convincing evidence for a pre-IE substrate in Scandinavia. Well just to be contrary: The famous Saami film I mentioned before is based on an ancient Saami narrative from about 1000 years ago or more, which shows Euro invaders entering into Saami space in Scandinavia and brutally murdering off Saami villages. Now, the subtitles didn't refer to these invaders as the Norse/Swedes (or Danes or IE Scandinavians) but 1. they were at least played by very Norse-looking actors while the Saami played the Saami (and I don't think the Norse were hired as stand-ins when the film was going for historical realism) and 2. I didn't much understand the language the invaders spoke, but from my recollection of the sounds it could pass for some IE Scandinavian language, rather than Finnish or some other language and 3. it seems these raids by invaders on Saami habitations had been going on for a long time, as each village had heard of these dreaded invaders committing their genocidal acts in earlier villages whenever their cycle of invasion re-started. Anyway, what I mean to say is that 1. Saami recollect when the invaders came into the areas of the region inhabited by Saami. And that 2. the invaders just replaced the natives. There was barely any talking by the invaders with the Saami, no trading, just looting and murdering and taking over/tramping over the habitat. Now if these invaders were repeated waves of raiding parties of IE Scandinavians settling further and further into Scandinavian lands and therefore ethnically cleansing whoever had lived there before, well no wonder there is no Saami (or other non-IE/non-IE-Scandinavian) substrate in Scandinavian languages. It was a straightforward replacement/ethnic cleansing, driving remaining Saami further off and into hiding. I'd thought of more to whine about but I can't remember now. But does Dhu ever visit IF anymore? I haven't seen him posting recently. I'm sure he would have a logical and consistent explanation for the discovery of the 7000 year old dark-skinned stone age European found in Spain with a genome that's Scandinavian other than its African genes for skin-colour, who had lactose intolerance, was from a pre-farming era and before domestication of livestock and who was a hunter gatherer. And Dhu could explain how all this relates back to Oppenheimer. And then there won't be stupid questions anymore, but coherent explanations at last. + Personally, I think the time is now ripe for Hindoos to use the current genetic and archaeological etc data to work on re-defining a logically-consistent (internally logically consistent) Palaeolithic Continuity Theory for Skt in India. Don't leave it too late and end up letting aliens inundate the field and fill in the gap on the Indian side with their storytelling. If you see any tendency toward general acceptance of PCT among the larger set of PIE-ists - either covertly or overtly starting to propound it - you need to be ready with a case for the Indian situation. + You don't need to bother thinking of PIE: the PCT version for Europe says nothing about PIE, just that IE goes back way-way in European space. Just do the same for Skt in India. I don't know, maybe you can use the fact that archaeology bears out that the Tarim dwellers in China* matched the people of IVC etc. (* Hardcore PIE-ists/supremacist Victor Mair had wrongly pounced on these as being "IE Celts and Germanics" in China, but others - archaeologists was it not? - had thereafter set the matter straight: that they were IVC people. Surely the fact that Mair pounced on the Tarim dwellers as specifically "IE" - when it turned out to be IVC people - puts an equation between IVC people and Skt?) Also, if Europeans can claim Cernunnos is ancient Celtic, then IVC's Pashupati-like imagery proves something or other about IVC and ancient local continuity of Hindoodom based on Vedic stuffs. Oh you know what I mean. + And you *don't* need to (and actually never needed to) prove OIT. You just need to show ancient continuity in India, and the rest can be revealed (or not) in time as data comes in. If PCT does not speak on the details concerning PIE and urheimat - at least, from the bits of the wacky links on PCT it didn't appear to speak on these matters - then why should Indians be bothered to bring in PIE, let alone to come up with theories about PIE locus/urheimat? OIT makes others' heathenisms derived and negates the validity of their religions and Gods as real and distinct. It turns their religions into shadow copies of yours. (Same as PIE-ism does to your Hindoo religion (and all attested so-called "IE" religions): it denies the validity of your Gods by making these derived and into shadow copies of the allegedly "truer", "more accurate" because "more original" reconstructed PIE gods that no known living or dead culture ever knew of.) If Hindus were heathen, they wouldn't do that to European heathens and their heathenisms. You get nothing from invalidating their religions or E Asian religions or other heathenisms. (I don't care about bad reconstructions/reconstructionists, but I care about genuine NW European heathens. They exist. And I most certainly care about Daoists and Shintos - oddly as much as I care about Hindoos.) If you were heathen, you would seek to protect and defend other heathenisms - as hard as you would your own - even when you knew yours was dying. Firstly, because they matter in their own right and one delights in their existence and in other heathens' endearing, steadfast and unwavering attachment to their Gods with unsubverted views. And secondly, because were only one of us - only one heathenism - to defeat and survive christoislamania and all subversions, it would be a victory for all of us, and we - and all other murdered heathenisms - would be avenged. But better than that would be for all of us to collectively survive and emerge out of this together. Daoists, Shintos, Hellenes, Hindoos, African heathenisms, native Americans N & S, Australian, Pacific, and of course all the various European heathenisms. A pox on monogawdism and all missionary=replacement religion. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - G.Subramaniam - 02-20-2014 Brown-skinned, blue-eyed, Y-haplogroup C-bearing European hunter-gatherer from Spain (Olalde et al. 2014) There is nothing like a little ancient DNA weirdness to start off 2014, which promises to be as exciting as 2013 was. The new study La Brana 1 identifies it as ancestral in the SLC24A5 locus in which virtually all Europeans are derived. This comes in the heels of the Loschbour preprint which identified that sample from Luxembourg as also being ancestral. Taken together, it's now clear that hunter-gatherers from Mesolithic Western Europe were brown. Curiously, it now seems that both Europe and India were (in part) inhabited by brown people and became lighter by a process of admixture + selection. The process went "all the way" in Europe, but a cline of pigmentation was sustained in India. -- Summary, White skin in Euro is derived from light brown Indian skin the mutant gene is SLC24A5, even in Tamil Nadu, 35% have the newer gene it rises as you go north east, for example 80% in Guj But in India it is constrained due to being nearer to Equator, whereas in Europe it evolved further towards even lighter skin Original non - Aryan Euro were black What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Husky - 03-06-2014 Post 1/2 This post is related to posts 585, 586, 588-590 above - in particular any that mentioned PCT. (This one is unlikely to make sense without reading those.) An almost live-development that is really interesting to see. But that comes in point 2 below. 1. First the digression. When I looked up the source for the statements in the post directly above (Kowshika's post), some western people seemed rather desperate to latch onto the new excuse that these dark Europeans were not really native Europeans/must have been visitors to Europe, by deciding that burial practices - i.e. disposing the body by means of only one of the 4 reasonably-tangible primary elements - was specifically not as per the "oldest oral European literature" and that burial practices must have been imported, and that disposing the body by means of the 3 remaining primary elements (fire, water, wind) were now suddenly the only true representative native primordial Euro practices. Apparently only/all because the 2 preserved buried European natives of this time-depth that were studied both turned out to be dark or have their genes indicate they were dark. (Seems that only for 5300 years before present have they found have an actual light-skinned European - but I only skimmed, so may have misread that.) But uh, mounds are *very* European. The Celts etc had it, which is why Tolkien used burial mounds ("Haudh-en-eleth", "Haudh-en-arwen" etc) profusely in his literature. Anyway, tracked down the comment: Quote:Annie Mouse said... That is just so funny. So anyone who is buried is not native European? Then why is the Kurgan Kultur - which almost every alien swore was (Proto) "Indo-European" - typified by Kurgans which are mounds, and IIRC not usually the kind to contain cremated remains (but of the Tolkien variety: i.e. of burial of unburnt whole-body remains, apparently not dispersed bones possible with cremation but whole skeletons)? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan Quote:Kurgan barrows were characteristic of Bronze Age peoples, from the Altay Mountains to the Caucasus, Ukraine, Romania, and Bulgaria. Burial mounds are complex structures with internal chambers. Within the burial chamber at the heart of the kurgan, elite individuals were buried with grave goods and sacrificial offerings, sometimes including horses and chariots. Kurgans were used in the Ukrainian and Russian Steppes but spread into eastern, central, and northern Europe in the 3rd millennium BC. Two examples of Kurgan excavations on the wacky page mention skeletons. And when a "kurgan cremation" case is finally mentioned, it is not very ancient plus the line itself specifically contrasts "kurgan cremation" with the more usual case of "kurgan burial", leaving little doubt as to what the reference to "burial mounds" in the general case of Kurgans is to have meant: Quote:A kurgan burial site at à Âubna-Jakusy and a kurgan cremation near Guciów are examples of Trzciniec culture of c. 1500 BC. Back to Annie Mouse denying burials as suddenly un-European (un-IE?) Why do western people always want to have things both ways, and so keep changing the story whenever archaeo-genetic finds don't go the way they want it to? Annie Mouse has clearly not read - or decided to ignore and hide - that La Brana's genome is significantly European and particularly Scandinavian. Admittedly, if really desperate, one could stretch the interpretation on the info thus-far revealed in mainstream news about the dark European Stone Ager - "La Brana" - from 7000 yrs ago (the one with the African genes for skin colour). The only way such commenters as Annie Mouse - desperate to have all-"white" Europeans 7000 yrs ago - can then still make it all fit is if they hid behind the "But what if La Brana was actually an ancient Finn/Saami type?" If one were to suppose it, then it would mean that the statement in the news articles somewhere above that declared the Euro Stone Ager's genome being more "Scandinavian" than any other type of European could technically still hold true, while no other European (i.e. the IE types) would yet have to be lumped with "dark" ancestors as recently as 7000 years ago (unless more finds appear) - since recent dark ancestors is clearly a notion too disturbing for some in the west. (Though Finns and Saami are no less native to Europe. And La Brana's genes were specifically described as European, especially Northern European/Scandinavian.) And Finns/Saami being non-IE, IE-Europeans can still hold on to the Anatolian PIE theory and also the Kurgan hypothesis and especially an all-white PIE population (and I'm sure that at that point, "Annie Mouse" would return to Kurgan mounds/burials being very "IE/traditionally European after all"). Of course, there is the slight problem to this convenient retelling - though only implicit: that had La Brana been more Finnish/Saami in terms of his genome than "other" (=IE) Scandinavian, the researchers would *very* likely have specifically stated so: after all, such info is very much what the west is interested in. The west only cares about "Is it IE or Not?" It's the first and last question on their minds. Since in their minds IE=white civilisation. So anything that shakes the foundations of either side of that equals sign is bound to be considered explosive news and would not result in ancient Finns/Saami being packaged under generic Scandinavian. Hence it's likely that when they said the Stone Age European from 7000 years BP had a "Scandinavian genome", they would really have meant the majority "IE" Scandinavians' genome (too) and not (just) the minority (non-IE) Scandinavians' genome. 2. Anyway, that was not the point of this post. The main point of this post was that when I visited the wackypedia page on "Kurgan" (mounds) I discovered something really hysterical. And predictable. It becomes apparent from the wackypedia Edit History Differences. You need to bear in mind that until recently Kurgan was firmly associated in the minds of all mainstream PIE-ists with IE and especially with the Kurgan - and Anatolian - PIE theories. Remember, Elst himself declared that the Kurgan kultur was "definitely" IE. So keeping that in mind then, now compare: a ) [color="#0000FF"]en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kurgan&oldid=593454147[/color] Quote:Kurgan The thing to note is that the above text was the last Wacky edit NOT to mention the additions that follow in (b ) below. Note also that the above was the edit from Feb 1. b ) Now things get really interesting. Several consecutive edits, all on March 1st, - by one "Hirabutor" - follow the above edit. The first couple or so edits are not relevant to my point. Two consecutive by this "Hirabutor" show the following appear and then evolve: en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kurgan&oldid=597693785 Quote:Kurgan And this is the final current text of [color="#0000FF"]the intro to the Kurgan page at wackypedia as it exists at present.[/color] Note the above was added by Hirabutor just 20 mins after previous (minor-looking) edits. Notice particularly the message Hirabutor records for the edit - so innocuous - between the previous edit at 17:23 and this significant one at 17:43: [color="#0000FF"]en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kurgan&diff=597693785&oldid=597691175[/color] Where the text went from (at 17:23): Quote:The distribution of such tumuli in [[Eastern Europe]] corresponds closely to the area of the [[Pit Grave]] or [[Kurgan culture]] in [[South-Eastern Europe]].<ref>[[Mario Alinei]] 'Interdisciplinary and linguistic evidence for Paleolithic continuity of Indo-European, Uralic and Altaic populations in Eurasia', 2003</ref>(The stuff between <ref></ref> tags would generate a link to a footnote: the footnote would contain the text between the ref tags, not the intro section itself. This is confirmed by how at 17:23, the intro section did not contain the text in the <ref>, which only contained a link to where it was displayed in the page's footnotes.) The above was changed to (17:43): Quote:Revision as of 17:43, 1 March 2014 (edit) (undo) And just a carefree edit message by Hirabutor about how his colossal change was merely for "improving style of writing (feel free to move this part to other sections)". Meanwhile, [color="#0000FF"]his edit was to insert the PCT - Pal(a)eolithic Continuity Theory - take on Kurgan burial mounds into the very introduction of the Kurgan page.[/color] I mean, previously the whole topic of Kurgan mounds was practically dominated by the prevailing version of PIE-ism - the Kurgan hypothesis (and IIRC the Anatolian PIE theory didn't disagree about the Kurgans being IE). Until the above wackypedia edit, the only place in the main body of the wacky Kurgan page's text where the Paleolithic Continuity Theory was described was in the Kurgan (PIE) Hypothesis subsection of the page - far from the intro - where the Anatolian Hypothesis and PCT were merely mentioned as opposing PIE theories to Kurgan culture being PIE. (Note that IIRC the Anatolian hypothesis still had Kurgan as IE, but not as PIE. That is, Kurgan was to have descended from an earlier PIE culture, whereas the Kurgan Hypothesis had Kurgan culture being PIE culture. PCT doesn't have Kurgan as PIE or even IE at all, but - as seen above - PCT has Kurgan being mixed Uralic-Altaic, i.e. non-IE.) Again, the significance is that the wackypedia Kurgan page's Intro is headlining with PCT (again, it's the page's intro section), attempting to pass this off as the New Old "Received Wisdom". And someone just snuck that massive change in, as if was just a minor text edit and as if it was the original Euro position on PIE all along. Like I said, hysterical. And so predictable. Personally, I think we'll see more of this changeover in future. IMO, it is an inevitable fallout from discovering that dark stone age European (and the other apparently dark European from about the same period). Europeans having been a not all-white population just 7000 years ago is too close for some people. Who knows, if this wacky edit wasn't just an individual's attempt to sneak past the radar but suddenly actually has higher-level support in the west (implying that it is the west making a move to prop PCT up as the New Eternal Original PIE Theory), maybe tomorrow they will sneakily rewrite the rules for IE-language-change-over-time to suddenly support PCT too (whereas IE linguists until now adamantly argued that PCT was in contradiction to the current IE linguistic rules), so that, from that angle too, they can pretend that PCT was the only argument they ever made. Time to parrot my statement from 2 posts up: Quote:Personally, I think the time is now ripe for Hindoos to use the current genetic and archaeological etc data to work on re-defining a logically-consistent (internally logically consistent) Palaeolithic Continuity Theory for Skt in India. Don't leave it too late and end up letting aliens inundate the field and fill in the gap on the Indian side with their storytelling. [color="#0000FF"]If you see any tendency toward general acceptance of PCT among the larger set of PIE-ists - either covertly or overtly starting to propound it - you need to be ready with a case for the Indian situation.[/color] What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Husky - 03-06-2014 Post 2/2 1. Not related to the previous. But putting this here since the Anatolian PIE hypothesis spoke of IE languages spreading with neolithic farming (implicitly drawing a connection between IE and farming technology, that IE people were the ones who invented and at least dispersed farming in Europe). IIRC, Renfrew/Anatolian hypothesis has Anatolia as the proto-PIE homeland, with Hittites as a less techy (more stone-agey, less metallurgy) early "IE" population branch. Or something. The timeframes concerning the Hittites are interesting. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites Quote:History[edit] So considering the timeframes given by the Kurgan and Anatolian PIE hypotheses for both 1. the Hittites (above) AND 2. PIE (4500 and 2500 BCE) the following certainly can't be swallowed up for oryanism: Quote:[color="#0000FF"]"Gobekli Tepe" - located in what's now Turkey - "contains some of the oldest buildings in the world" (btw, with intricately carved animal figurines on pillars) "dating to nearly three times the age of the first Egyptian pyramids": Gobekli Tepe buildings are dated to "12000 years before present". The people farmed wheat, already ushering in the Neolithic. The wheat had a mutation which became widespread owing to human dispersal/artificial selection.[/color] (In case anyone didn't yet know: Anatolia is now ~Turkey. And IIRC Turkey is not even included in the countries of the "Fertile Crescent", wherefrom farming is to have emanated in at least non-Anatolian Hypotheses.) Anyway, the point was, at least we know that Renfrew's version of Oryanism in Anatolia can't claim that farming was *invented* by Oryans. 12000 years BP=10,000 years BCE of the civilisation at Gobekli Tepe predates not just the Hittites - regardless of whether they were native (Anatolian Hypothesis) or invading (Kurgan Hypothesis) IE-speakers, but also predates the commonly assigned dates for the existence of PIE language, Kultur und Urheimat as accepted by the mainstream (i.e. the Anatolian, Kurgan hypotheses for PIE). Of course, Next (aka "tomorrow"), the oryanists - say, Victor Mair's equivalent for Turkey - will pounce on Gobekli Tepe as "Oryan". Nothing, but nothing is safe from oryanising, after all. 2. At that western blog alluded to in Kaushika's post further above, in its blog entry discussing the dark La Brana Stone Age European, it had people rushing to declare that the Tarim basin mummies had red hair. But - as IF member dhu had pointed out long ago - hair of the mummified turning red (and even yellowish) over time is a natural chemical process. Nevertheless, oryanists and other white supremacists would rather be ignorant about such inconvenient facts and insist on seeing oryans/European populations not just in the Tarim Basin in China's vicinity or in Egypt but also in the mummified Peruvians. I'm not kidding. The web is full of people - only western people, note - declaring that since all these mummies have red hair (never mind that it is owing to mummification) that this all points to some grand "white" civilisations that in ancient times had settled the world and built the pyramids in Egypt, the grand structures in Peru ![]() chemistry.about.com/b/2013/02/27/haircolor-changes-after-you-die.htm Quote:"Haircolor Changes After You Die Of course that hasn't prevented the west from peddling that these mummies were all "Europeans" originally. Again: I don't know why oryanists didn't claim the red and fairer-haired mammoths that have been found were "oryans (mammoths) too"? (Although the palaeontologists who found those mammoths said the hair lightening in their case could be owing to environmental conditions like discolouration from the soil, and thus need not be inherent to those mammoths either.) Also, to repeat: never mind that: Quote:Hemphill's biodistance analysis of cranial metrics, however, provides compelling evidence that the ancestry of the Tarim Basin groups was non-European (Hemphill, 2000). Rather, his analysis reveals a biological affinity with the Indus Valley population of northern India for the earlier groups, whereas the later groups show affinity to populations of the Oxus River valley in south-central Asia." Sounds like the Tarim basin entities are likely to have had their hair discoloured by the mummification/natural process too... Though I wouldn't put it past oryanists/other aliens in the west to next start claiming that "therefore" the IVC was populated by red-haired Europeans and must have been "Euro-Oryan" and Skt speaking (while, when native Hindus claimed a continuity of their ethnic native Vedic ancestors in the IVC, this was dismissed as "of course IVC is not 'IE' and hence didn't speak Skt and is not Vedic". The minute the oryans want to claim IVC as part of their European ancestors' stuff, IVC will magically become IE.) 3. And more "white"-centrist stupidity at [color="#0000FF"]economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21597881-homo-sapiens-became-black-beat-cancer-skinny-skin-colour[/color] (found via rajeev2004.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/black-is-right-color-for-humans-helps.html) Quote:Human evolution The people at the economist are obviously morons. - Zebras have actually white and actually black stripes. - The so-called self-declared "white" people - i.e. Europeans - are a range of pinkish-orange skintones. Anyone who has ever done photo-realistic painting will know that much (but not "white"-centrist aliens of course). - Some very fair Korean people look closer to the colour of white paper (or white snow) than many European populations do. And I'm not talking about absolute skin-reflectivity here, but about nearness to perceived paper/snow colour. - Sub-Saharan Africans are a range of browns. Not "black". (- Indians and a whole bunch of other populations on the planet are ranges of browns. At times mixed with different/custom ranges of oranges. E.g. Indians have brown and orange ranges that are different from Europe's orange range of skintones. Likewise Chinese and Japanese populations cover brown, orange and pink ranges that are different again from Europe's pink-orange ranges and India's brown and orange ranges. - Etc.) I've seen many European and African people, but I've never seen a person who was actually black or actually white. The skin of chimpanzees - as is visible on parts of their bodies where they have no fur - ranges from some non-descript shades of brown to colours that come closer to black (or grey) than anything I've seen in humans. See pictures at link below. The pics at this link happen to be of the Fongoli Chimpanzees, but other chimpanzees share these skintones. [Note that Fongoli chimpanzees are very like us humans/our monkey ancestors: not only have they left the trees and taken to live on the savannah as our own ancestors did, sometimes the Fongoli chimpanzees stand and walk *upright* for a brief time, to see over the high grass of the savannah. And they have likewise been caught on film making and using spears - tools! - to kill bushbabies, other mammals. (HTGAP-3.) And no, tool-making and usage is not unique to humans among the apes. With any luck these chimps will give rise to some sane humanoids that will replace homo sapiens when the niche becomes free...] Anyway, the pictures: [color="#0000FF"]ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/04/chimps-with-spears/frans-lanting-photography.html[/color] (Actually, people can just google for "chimpanzee" images and see for themselves how far they agree with the Ecomonist's silly statement.) As is obvious, where the skin on these chimps is visible, it is some shades of brownish - with even pinky edges on the ears and lips at times (also seen in humans wherever the blood is somewhat visible past these areas of thinner membrane*) - ranging to very dark skin. [*Palms are another area where humans and IIRC some monkeys too tend to be more pinkish - perhaps the skin is less thick/more translucent here and we can see through to the flesh; maybe less thick skin in the inner hand/fingers area is to improve tactile sense- in any case, it once again doesn't mean that the colour of humans' or monkeys' palms is representative of their "actual" skintone. (It is representative only of the skintone of their palms.) <- This is why when Hindoos colour Krishna blue or Meenakshi green, they still seem to consistently colour the palms of these Gods a somewhat ruddy or pinkish colour.] Anyone who pretends that chimps have "white" skin is therefore obviously a "white"-centrist moron. The proof is in the pictures combined with the fact that anyone who wants to make a photo-realistic painting of these chimps will *never* colour these animals "white" in the fur-less areas (btw, they're not even really the colours of European pinkish-orange tones...) And I don't understand why people conclude that humans are the only ones that "became 'black' (to beat skin cancer)". As seen in some of the chimp photos, many chimps (definitely among the adult-sized ones) are really dark in their fur-less areas and closer to the actual colour black than any human I've ever seen. I wonder whether the whole "chimps were originally 'white', and humans 'became' 'black' to beat cancer" spin - I'm not denying that evolving high pigmentation is to cope with cancer risks from the sun, which is known, my issue concerns the Economist's silly phrasing on colour in an article that's supposed to be about science - I'm wondering whether that whole spin is in order to sinisterly declare that "humans were/would have been 'white' originally and only became 'black' thereafter" in order to compensate for the Stone Age La Brana European turning out to be some shade of "dark", as also mankind's ancestors in the African Urheimat... I mean, there's no other reason for the Economist to declare chimps to be "white" 'underneath', is there? (Especially when - as seen in chimpanzee photos in web search images - the exposed skin areas like face, hands and feet of some chimps' are darker than human ranges of dark skintones...) [color="#0000FF"]The previous post is more relevant to this thread than this one.[/color] What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Husky - 03-09-2014 Back to that western blog's entry which was alluded to in Kaushika's post somewhere above. Once more about the following comment at that blog entry: Quote:Annie Mouse said... I'm going to skip past the pretence in their statement of "our oldest oral European literature". Europe is a modern invention, and so speaking of a shared oral corpus as if there was one set of people in Europe with related beliefs and practices (before christendom) is odd, not just because La Brana 7000 years ago already turned out to genetically line-up more closely with Scandinavians than other Europeans, but especially since Annie Mouse is not referring to "IE people" (who as per PIE are supposed to have started off with one kultur etc): rather, the above seems to be saying that Mesolithic Europeans are specifically not the same as the "IE" people who invaded Europe - since IE being connected to Kurgan Kultur by non-PCT are certainly supposed to have known burial practices. (And does Annie Mouse etc really know of oral traditions that touch on the Mesolithic? It's not impossible, but I did hear people in the British Isles could barely remember the details of the culture and traditions of the Picts - the pre-Angle, pre-Saxon and even pre-Celt natives of the Isles - and have to rely on scarce and dubious Roman sources concerning these. And even Picts are nowadays supposed to have been IE. So - at least as per non-PCT - Picts too are therefore supposed to have invaded Europe post-Mesolithic and hence would be supposed to have had some Kurgan kultural influences etc.) As for Celts at least, cremation seems to have been introduced later (post burial, and certainly post Kurgan-type mound burials) - note, well past the Mesolithic: ivargault.com/kelterne/celts.html Quote:Around 1250 BC traces of change in the archaelogical material indicate the development of a Celtic-speaking branch of Indo-European. The so-called Urnefelt-Culture is considered a continuation of the Unetice-Culture. [color="#FF0000"]The most striking change is the introduction of a new burial practice - cremation.[/color] The cinerary urns were placed in special graveyards.** Most linguists are of the opinion that these people must have spoken an early form of Celtic - proto Celtic. (** Seems somewhat comparable to the funerals of Greek warriors in the Trojan war, like the description of Patroklos' funeral: burnt and then the bones were collected and IIRC preserved/buried. In some parts of ancient Tamizh Nadu too - at about 2800 years ago/800 BCE - urns containing bones of (cremated) dead were buried, as per archaeological digs.) However, even afterward the introduction of cremation, Celts for some time apparently continued regular burial without cremation: there were still burial chambers of Continental Celts found where the dead were buried with stuff (presumably for the afterlife?): dw.de/archeologists-revise-image-of-ancient-celts/a-16528844 (Deutsche Welle) - Quote:Archeology conjure.com/whocelts.html Quote:Hallstat culture (800-250 BCE), named after a type-site at Hallstatt, Austria, is the name given to the material culture of the early Iron Age Celts. Their range spanned from the Paris basin to valley of Morava in Eastern Europe and from the Alps to the north European plain. During early Hallstat (800-600 BCE) there is little evidence of great distinctions of wealth in burials. A few people are buried with wagons and horse gear, rather more are warriors (both genders) buried with their swords, most people are buried with personal ornaments and pots containing food. Cemeteries are small and associated with small settlements, perhaps one family or a group of related families. sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/rac/rac25.htm Quote:Certain passages in Irish texts also describe burials, and tell how [color="#FF0000"]the dead were interred[/color] with ornaments and weapons, while it was a common custom to bury the dead warrior in his armour, fully armed, and facing the region whence enemies might be expected. Thus he was a perpetual menace to them and prevented their attack. 1 Possibly this belief may account for the elevated position of many [color="#FF0000"]tumuli[/color]. Animals were also sacrificed. Hostages were buried alive with Fiachra, according to one text, and the wives of heroes sometimes express their desire to be buried along with their dead husbands. 2(Tumuli=kurgan-type mounds, further indicating that kurgan burials were originally more often to do with interring bodies in mounds than cremating them and then burying the crematury urns in the mounds. And the case of cremation is not mentioned as the rule, let alone as the only means of disposing of the bodies of the dead. But rather that cremation occurred in some Celtic regions at this time.) And now even more off-topic, but about this in the above quoteblock: Quote:Animals were also sacrificed. Hostages were buried alive with FiachraC.f. how at Patroklos' funeral in the Iliad, some of his hounds have their necks slit and then join his pyre, and the bodies of some horses are thrown on the edges of the pyre also, and then Achilles further kills (was it by cutting the throats of?) some 12 Trojan POW warriors that he had captured for this specific purpose in his anger/in vengeance for Patroklos' death. Although this last may not be Greek tradition: Achilles was out for revenge and may have acted outside of normal Greek custom (?) Anyway, a sort of involuntary suttee of men. C.f. the involuntary suttee of serfs among Germanics in Elst's example, and involuntary suttee of some of the serfs/retinue of Chinese emperors. [Unlike wives who may choose to join their deceased husbands on the pyre, I suspect serfs - like POWs/hostages - are unlikely to volunteer to die. But since Elst referred to even the serfs getting stabbed to join some German nobleman as being a "suttee", then I suppose the POWs in Achilles' case are a "suttee" too, and so too I guess are the hostages in the case of Fiachra above. So by such argument, the Greeks did have a type of "suttee" too then, though Elst said they did not. Admittedly, the wife didn't join a dead husband. But there's a case of POWs being made to join a dead warrior, which IMO is sort of equidistant from Sati to Germanic serfs being made to join their master. (Again: the Germanic case is more like the Chinese emperor's case.) Personally, I think Sati should not have been re-defined past the voluntary self-immolation - and not self-stabbing etc as in the German or other cases - of the wife/wives, within the appointed period of her husband's death. Else further expansions to the definition of suttee should be equally-admissible, IMO, like male POWs getting their necks slit in the Iliad, or like the male serfs getting stabbed to join a dead Germanic aristocrat. Not the meaning of Sati to Hindus - and it is Hindus' word for a Hindu tradition.] What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - ramana - 03-11-2014 Husky, Can you put together a ten-twenty slides presentation on the DNA evidence and how it debunks the AIT? This is for hosting on slideshare. Thanks, ramana What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Husky - 03-11-2014 Am sure you'll do a better job of it. Or you could ask Dhu. I only spammed this thread and another thread on PIE-ism, not really AIT. And only because PIE-ism is eyeing E Asia - and especially E Asian heathenism - now. Am hoping Hindus will warn any E Asians they know about PIE-ism/the AIT tactic, with the Indian case as the tragic example/case study for all Asians to learn from: "Don't allow yourselves to get turned into an AIT by-product like Indians did. Look what happened to the Indians and their heathenism." I've found that it - and examples of changes in individual Indians and their thought patterns over time - serve as a good warning for E Asian heathen friends. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 03-12-2014 I'll work on it for a while then give a commitment. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - ketan - 03-16-2014 [quote name='Mudy' date='21 August 2006 - 05:07 AM' timestamp='1156116583' post='55941'] rkumar/romani/.... There was no Aryan invader. In Sanskrit "Arya" is used to give respect. There is NO ARYAN race. Hitler is dead and so his theory. So don't bring same crap again and again.............. [/quote] yes there is no evidence of something called aryan invaded india. So don't try to bring up this topic and divide indians into aryan & dravidians... This is the politics what english people played while leaving india. They ill minded people just wanted to make sure that we did not stay happy and they saw we have capability to rule world, so they just planted such non-sense in India... What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Husky - 03-18-2014 [color="#0000FF"]Ramana, please see Dhu's post 597 a couple of posts up.[/color] Post 1/2 1. On this in post #593: Quote:"Gobekli Tepe"* - located in what's now Turkey - "contains some of the oldest buildings in the world" (btw, with intricately carved animal figurines on pillars) "dating to nearly three times the age of the first Egyptian pyramids": Gobekli Tepe buildings are dated to "12000 years before present". The people farmed wheat, already ushering in the Neolithic. The wheat had a mutation which became widespread owing to human dispersal/artificial selection.[*There may be a trema - or umlaut or whatever - on the o in Gobekli Tepe. I'm not sure.] Gobekli Tepe buildings unearthed are at present thought to be temples or for some such mystical purpose. Carvings of presumably vultures in a certain setting are currently interpreted as being an indication of a funeral rite where the dead are left to - that other common practice - [color="#0000FF"]exposure and hence carion fowl (as opposed to burial or cremation or a watery grave).[/color] More to be said on Gobekli Tepe which knew wheat farming back in 12000 years BP: everyone else probably knew already, but it [color="#0000FF"]turns out that it's genetically proven that wheat farmed anywhere in the world is originally derived from the wheat that emanated from Gobekli Tepe (IHJ-3) - apparently all other wheat has been shown to trace back to the one mutation that occurred at Gobekli Tepe. Again, the time is important: 12000 years before present for farming this wheat at Gobekli Tepe.[/color] [color="#0000FF"]Now, this affects stuff like:[/color] a. As stated before, [color="#0000FF"]Gobekli Tepe did not have PIE-speakers, because "PIE couldn't have existed then" as per IE linguistics[/color] as wacky entities explained in arguing against PCT version of PIE (already quoted in some post above) - of course, tomorrow they'll change the PIE linguistics rules just in order to claim Gobekli Tepe for Oryanism/PIE-ism next: Quote:For PIE, dates between 8000 BC and 2500 BC are possible (10000-4500 BP, i.e. a factor of 2.2): 8000 BC is extremely early and 2500 is extremely late, most people will agree that a 6000-3000 BC range (factor of 1.6) still has a very high confidence. Since Gobekli Tepe is dated 2000 years before the earliest allowed date of 10000 BP (aka 8000 BCE) of PIE - and 8000 BCE for PIE is further said to "stretch" it - Gobekli Tepe is obviously not PIE speaking. Not IE. [color="#0000FF"](And by implication, (the farmed, mutated) wheat - and wheat farming - is not IE in origin.)[/color] b. Next, the news item in #586 said: Quote:A Stone Age man who lived about 7,000 years ago and whose buried bones were discovered in 2006 has turned out to be the earliest known person with blue eyes, a physical trait that evolved relatively recently in human history, a study has found. That is, they guesstimated that 10,000 years BP was when the blue eye mutation arose. But the first guy they have so far actually found having the genes for the blue eye phenotype is from 7,000 years ago, though we are also repeatedly told by the news article that he had African genes for skin colour. Now, [color="#0000FF"]the Gobekli Tepe (GT) neolithic civilisation in modern-day Turkey that is from 12000 years BP - when they were already into wheat farming - therefore GT did not have a single blue-eyed individual and had an even even larger number of "dark" individuals (with "African genes for skin-colour") than 2000 years later when "blue eyes first arose 10,000 years ago in individuals living around the Black Sea" - assuming for the moment there were any fair-skinned people back at that time, let alone specifically anywhere in or near that area. (And Gobekli Tepe of 12,000 yrs before present would have had far larger numbers of dark people still than even at 7000 years BP when the dark-skinned Stone Age European with blue eyes was found in Spain.)[/color] In fact, it is not impossible that there may have been barely any (or any at all for that matter) "white" people in Gobekli Tepe. And certainly none with blue eyes. That is to say, more people back in 12,000 BP (and especially in the Anatolian region of Gobekli Tepe) would have had "African genes for skin colour" than in 7000 BP Spain/Europe proper. The point being, [color="#0000FF"]we won't hear that Gobekli Tepe was part of "white civilisation" any time soon. And "white civilisation" theories, as you know, rest on notions of homogenous white societies, not societies that look miscegenated let alone mostly/all "dark"[/color] (now I didn't make the rules - I don't actually care - but even sticking within their idiot logic, things aren't working out in favour of for white supremacists and their notions). I mean, no blue eyes and no homogeneous "white" skin. Oh how tragic. Worse still, [color="#0000FF"]the origins of the farming of wheat is not just non-IE, it is also not "white civilisation".[/color] Since I seem to always be rooting for the underdog, I think African claimants should pounce all over this thing. I mean, Gobekli Tepe was populated by some intermediate stage of the Modern Humans that left Africa and who likely hadn't yet started looking European in any important sense, right? GT's population are even more likely to have had the "African genes for skin-colour" than even the European 'distinctly Scandinavian' La Brana Spanyard had 5000 years later. And all this makes Gobekli Tepe - a civilisation - up for grabs, just screaming to be claimed, surely? (Since neither oryanist nor other white supremacists can claim it :mwahahahaha ![]() As to this statement I made in #593: Quote:(In case anyone didn't yet know: Anatolia is now ~Turkey. Supporting data: britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/205250/Fertile-Crescent Quote:Fertile Crescent, the region in the Middle East where the civilizations of the Middle East and the Mediterranean basin began. The term was popularized by the American Orientalist James Henry Breasted. And these next are Encyclopedia Britannica's maps for "Fertile Crescent": media-3.web.britannica.com/eb-media/53/64953-004-9F75721A.jpg media-3.web.britannica.com/eb-media/69/569-004-2B15D15E.jpg media-1.web.britannica.com/eb-media/50/64950-004-EAA1108C.jpg [Note lists biblical tribes like "Hittites", and "Elamites" for Susa.] Hmmm, there's a possible close shave with Turkey on the map (am bad at geography and too lazy to look it up), so don't know if Gobekli Tepe (GT) falls right there in the border region of the Fertile Crescent - but GT was only found in the '90s (1990s) whereas the phrase "Fertile Crescent" was coined quite some time earlier on, if that counts for anything. Plus the Turkey/Anatolia region doesn't appear to be included in Brittannia's textual listing above of the countries making up "the Fertile Crescent"... Either way, the major point still stands: Gobekli Tepe is not a "white civilisation" in any sense of the words. [[color="#0000FF"]Digression.[/color] "IIRC" - Susiana in Persia I think refers to the city of Susa (?): ancient population native to Iran that spoke a non-IE language and IIRC which language is so far thought to be independent of other language families. Susa was famous for veneration of the dog (which seems to be inherited in Zoroastrianism) - IIRC engravings from 10,000 to 8,000 BCE from Susa showed that dogs were part of the religion of Susa. They seem to have been one of the populations that domesticated the dog early on. The others being Africans - who IIRC have the oldest type of domesticated dog - various E Asians (Japan, China) and Tibet and of course the many Spitz types like huskies and malamutes and Greenland snowdogs of the various Circum-Polar peoples - Inuit in Canada/Alaska and the many related ancient native populations of Siberia. (North American native Americans have a deep connection with wolves and it is a sacred totem animal there :cheer: Also among Chinese vanavaasis IIRC.) As mentioned, huskies are one of these earliest type of domesticated wol.. I mean dogs. Japan's Sakhalin Husky too. (And IIRC even the cuddly ancient breed of African dog has a tail that curled attractively over onto the body of the dog.) I suspect that the position of snow dog/Spitz types like huskies in Shamanistic societies traces back to a long connection between man and wolf kind there, until the point where these became fully domesticated and which thereafter officially formed breeds of dogs. The Afghan dog - another early dog breed - seems related to the Iranian dog that the people of Susa had venerated/started domesticating. It looks very similar and is shown in the genetics maps about these earliest dog breeds as being a "cousin" to the Persian breed. Both breeds certainly look unlike the E-Asian/Circum-polar dogs. I guess I was disappointed at some level when the top 10 ancient dog breeds as per the current status of genetics did not show any to have been domesticated in India. Sigh. Never mind, we seem to have always had Wolves. Indian dogs - as seen in images of Dattatreya's dogs or Kovil moorties of Bhairava's Shvaana vahanaam in Kovils - do look, at least in terms of appearance, more like they could be derived from the Susa-n and related Afghan kind, than the Tibetan, E/Asian or Circum-Polar kind.] 2. BTW: [color="#0000FF"]from memory, Stephen Oppenheimer said that migrations could be dated with genetics.(IHJ-4-24)[/color] But no mention of the degree of accuracy/amount of leeway for dates: 100s of years, 1000s? (May paste a literal quote eventually.) If it's not already been done, should look into what genetics has to say for migrations 4000 BCE and 6000 BCE for India. (Or even all the way to 12000 BP/10,000 BCE and beyond to cover more of the stone age.) Want to know what those earlier dates say about any "invasions" of the notorious variety so far alleged as being at around 1800 BCE or later. Around 1800 BCE and later dates it is clear: no invasions. But I think Indians should move past the AIT dates and be more curious about the part of the archeological record that was not covered by J Schaffer and Lichtenstein (was it? sorry, I am lousy at remembering people's names or anything that I'm neutral about): need to look for whether there's any evidence for migrations vs proof of indigeneity earlier. Why are Indians not curious about these earlier dates (or maybe I'm wrong and Indians have already tested for this timeframe)? At a minimum, these will be the next alleged dates for Oryan invasions/migrations/miscegenations, after all. 3. [color="#0000FF"]And another inadvertently funny (hysterical!) side-effect of the realisation that even at 7000 years BP, native Europeans weren't yet a homogeneous "white" looking population. Again, the thing to remember at this point is that Da Definition of "white race/people" (and civilisation) was always that it refers to a *homogeneous* "white" population.[/color] (Since anything else was conceived of by the original formulators of "whiteness" - all the way down to the one-drop rule and beyond - as being "miscegenated" or "half-formed", or even de-formed and malformed if you will - again: I never made these rules, and they're as tacky to me as they are to any other sane person. I'm just being spiteful with them). And now this definition seems to me to be working against its peddlers. Because, remember this old article: prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/mythsofbritishancestry/ Quote:Myths of British ancestry [color="#0000FF"]Wait wait wait. So let me get that straight. Is Oppenheimer's data saying that when Britain was first peopled - and which population were the native ancestors of 3/4 of the current natives of Britain - these 3/4ths of all the ancestors of the modern natives of the British Isles weren't part of the alleged "white race"....? Well, not yet anyway, not by Da Definition.[/color] Oh, how sad. "Boohoo." And that everything ever achieved by said original British population until such a moment that it turned homogeneously "white" at last... is not the achievement of the alleged "white" race? "But that's so unfair." Now, if they had individuals with "African genes for skin-colour" back when much of Britain was peopled - and who went back and forth between Iberia during the last ice age - just as the Stone Age La Brana man from 7000 years BP still had, then by definition does this not mean that Africans have a right to claim Brits' ancestors and their achievements right up to the point in time where the natives of Britain finally became a homogeneous "white" population. Surely? (By logic) Hysterisch. Obviously I'm being sarcastic for such parts of this post. And yet, I can't see that my application of the logic that's been dictated by other people's deeply-lame rules folds anywhere. (Am I wrong?) There's just so many ways that the whole "white" thing can be lampooned. [color="#0000FF"]Some crazy comments at that western blog page alluded to in Kaushika's post further above showed that the La Brana discovery turned into some deeply existential crisis for Whitists (=the subset of Europeans obsessed with self-perceptions of "white race"/"white civilisation" as some entity separate from the rest of the human species).[/color] I mean, their desperate excuses to explain away La Brana and the genes for lightening that became fixed in Europeans is just ... wow. I can't even believe these are adults - being, presumably, over 18. (I suspect the whole Neanderthal interspecies mingling thing is being treated as a windfall to mitigate this horrific discovery that Europe wasn't very "white" - let alone distinct/unique - 7000 years ago.) Nothing like stupid memes to permanently debilitate human minds. Deserves to be lampooned. Disclaimer: This post is not remotely directed at western heathens. They never invented "white" race nonsense. (Or even "Europeans". Or PIE/IE.) These disclaimers should be regarded implicit, IMO. [color="#0000FF"]Ramana, see Dhu's post 597.[/color] What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Husky - 03-19-2014 [color="#0000FF"]Ramana, see Dhu's post 597.[/color] Post 2/2 Sorry, seems I wasn't finished rambling just yet. To explain what I actually meant to say in the following from the above and to expand on it: Quote:There's just so many ways that the whole "white" thing can be lampooned. Some crazy comments at that western blog page alluded to in Kaushika's post further above showed that the La Brana discovery turned into some deeply existential crisis for Whitists (=the subset of Europeans obsessed with self-perceptions of "white race"/civilisation as some entity separate from the rest of the human species). [color="#0000FF"]I mean, their desperate excuses to explain away La Brana and the genes for lightening that became fixed in Europeans is just ... wow.[/color] I can't even believe these are adults - being, presumably, over 18. It should read more like: 'Desperate excuses to explain away La Brana man's "African genes for skin colour" by trying to argue that the genes [or rather alleles] for lightening that became fixed in modern Europeans were at least known to not be fixed in the 7000 year old La Brana Stone Ager, the way they are in modern Europeans. (And which consequently are known to have made La Brana "dark" to whatever extent - uncharacteristically for a modern European.' Will track down stuff I think I read in that blog. [I think that I read that these skin lightening mutations - the ones that became fixed in Europeans - were said to be missing altogether in La Brana (?)] <So deleting a lot of the rest of this post, since I don't want to make vast claims based on something without properly remembering what I think I had read. (Since that's usually the sort of thing I make fun of in other people. Then again, everyone else always makes vast claims and usually runs away with it.)> The desperate at that western blog were arguing that "But but but, can't he have been white in some other way" - such as "the E Asian way". Except that E Asians turned light owing to *other* (non-European) lightening mutations, as per more learned comments at that very blog. And other desperate excuses followed. "He was not representative of Europeans". (Except there's mention in the very opening blog post there of some other find from around that timeframe that also turned out to be an example of what was phenotypically a "dark" European. And I can't make out that there have been any finds so far for that time period that were fair/on the way to being fair like modern Europeans.***) And the other excuse "Maybe the 7000 year old European was 'white' with freckled skin already, so that when lightening genes did finally appear/did get turned on, then they merely lightened away the freckles". Good grief. One of the commenters had to repeatedly explain that La Brana either didn't possess the necessary mutations for skin lightening (or these were not turned on or whatever) that made Europeans light. But that didn't stop pleadings of: "Please please please, can't it be that we don't know *all* the genes that lighten Europeans and hence it may be that La Brana may have had exactly any/all the other potential genes that could exist that lighten Europeans - but not any of the particular ones that have so far been discovered as lightening Europeans." Except that no such genes were known and the present lightening genes identified account for most of the lightening seen in Europeans. I don't get why these people are so hung up**. Everyone knew that Europeans were merely Modern Humans who had turned fairer. But it really bothers them - and surprising how much - that this was quite so recently. As recently as some time around/post 7000 years ago. (Was it Stuttgart man or someone who was to have lived 5300 years back who was said to be lighter/more European looking in terms of complexion/qua skincolour?) ** Actually, it's their lame identification with "whiteness". They've built entire castles in the air about "white civilisation" and the "white race" being the only creative population and civilisational force etc etc etc that, you know, when the entire edifice they've built up is called into question by such inconvenient things like timing, it's really affecting their psyche. Don't know why these people can't just wait for data instead of starting to make up stories and excuses about it already. *** I agree that they only found some 2 individuals from this early time frame/stone age era - and not sure whether these 2 are to have been representative of all areas of what's now considered Europe, e.g. has anything in E Europe from around about that time been looked at so far? - and so there's no reason to jump to conclusions IMO about what all the rest of the European population looked like. (Unless they've definitely dated the appearance of the lightening mutation genes to such a late time. Otherwise ![]() [color="#0000FF"]Ramana, see Dhu's post 597.[/color] What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - ramana - 03-19-2014 Thanks Dhu. Thanks Husky for the diligence to ensure I read Dhu's post. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - ramana - 03-19-2014 Husky for you diligence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarama Quote:In Hindu mythology, Sarama (Sanskrit: à ¤¸à ¤°à ¤®à ¤¾, SaramÃÂ; Tamil: Carapai; Thai: Trichada; Malay: Marcu Dewi) is a mythological being referred to as the bitch of the gods, or Deva-shuni (à ¤¦à ¥â¡Ã ¤µ-à ¤¶à ¥Âà ¤¨à ¥â¬, devashunë). She first appears in one of Hinduism's earliest texts, the Rig Veda, in which she helps the god-king Indra to recover divine cows stolen by the Panis, a class of demons. This legend is alluded to in many later texts, and Sarama is often associated with Indra. The epic Mahabharata, and some Puranas, also make brief reference to Sarama. What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Husky - 03-19-2014 Many thanks for the excerpt on Sarama. [Yama's dogs sadly tend to be pounced on by aliens for PIE-ism, since they choose to draw a straight line to Kerberos dwelling in Hades. Kerberos BTW is where Tolkien obviously plagiarised his Carcharoth from.] It's not that there are no ancient references to dogs (hence domesticated) among Hindus, it's that research has not (yet) found any ancient founding lineages of domesticated dogs in India. So that was the source of my disappointment. I don't know why it should matter, why I should be so petty about it. But on the bright side, India and Nepal natively have the Lesser Pandas aka Red Panda. ![]() There were some very good documentaries on the domestication of the dog - it's a fascinating story, on the extent that dogs contributed to (and instigated, and even controlled) the process of their domestication. [color="#0000FF"]Concerning post 600[/color], here are some of the excerpts from that blog page that mention the relevant mutations that lightened Europeans (I searched for the gene name prefix and chose mostly comments by one Tobus since at least he sounds like this may be closer to his field - well, at least more than in the case of the others who mentioned the gene there - plus he sounded like he would let the data lead him on the matter of La Brana man's skintone): Quote:Tobus said... What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Husky - 03-23-2014 1. About this: [quote name='Husky' date='18 March 2014 - 09:42 PM' timestamp='1395158672' post='117136'] BTW: [color="#0000FF"]from memory, Stephen Oppenheimer said that migrations could be dated with genetics.(IHJ-4-24)[/color] But no mention of the degree of accuracy/amount of leeway for dates: 100s of years, 1000s? (May paste a literal quote eventually.)[/quote] In the following excerpt, SO stands for Dr Stephen Oppenheimer. And Dr AR is the anatomist/medical doctor and anthropologist who is the narrator. Oppenheimer and Bradshaw foundation - or one Paul(?) Bradshaw certainly - were mentioned in the credits, with the latter being instrumental in commissioning this, I think. (In the excerpt below, AR is the narrator where none is mentioned. At this point she's looking at how and when the Semang of Malaysia got there, as part of a larger story of how and when the native Australians got to Australia.) Quote:Amazingly, through their DNA, it might be possible to trace that first great journey through Malaysia. Note, in an exchange between Oppenheimer and AR in the middle somewhere above, Stephen starts responding to AR's questions at the points marked with * and **. The timing of his responses matter IMO, because they show exactly what question by AR he is responding to at each point: That is, she asks "What about dates?" ("Well") "Because they certainly think they've been here forever." And it is then at this point that the Dr Oppenheimer answers rather genially - and not remotely insincerely - with "Yes well, I agree with them". And then he repeats "Yes" to her subsequent question to confirm the view he just expressed yet again, with the aforementioned good-natured laugh. If he'd been a heathen, I'd have said it was a heathen response by Oppenheimer. Of course, in doing so he's talking about the larger picture of the Semang's ancientry being indeed so ancient in their Malaysian homeland - in terms of Modern Humans - that, where human history is concerned, it could reasonably be expressed as sort of "forever". But I liked the quickness and eagerness of his response, because you could really see he was very consciously and willingly chiming in with their self-perceptions and their view of their history in the place. It was just a few brief moments but I really liked that about him. I've not read either of his books - I so should buy them hereafter - but when reading his articles for ProspectMagazine.uk and Spiegel.de, his advocacy for the ancient nativeness of the current population of the British Isles seemed even then to indicate someone who was pleased to discover that the locals were indeed largely local - even if they've been brainwashed out of it - and have long been natives together. People don't seem to realise not just the Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, Viking and Norman invasions but that "IE" invasions themselves make lots of Europeans non-natives and set up indigenous vs alien strifes and offer little in return for the theory. Well, owing to IE-ism there was a last boost to white supremacism and a 'respectable' looking one at that - to give it the definition of all of Europe including the Irish, the Slavs and even the Serbian Slavs now, but not Yesterday - but little else that Europe got out of IE-ism as far as I can tell. Even most of their ancient religions are dismissed as IE-derived, and with that the seal is forever placed on heathenisms in Europe. 2. Back in post 589, excerpts were posted from the Wacky Talk Page for the PCT (Palaeolithic Continuity Theory for PIE). Concerning this statement from the excerpts: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk ![]() Quote:The consensus in genetics is now fairly solid that 80% of the population is pre-farming and if you study the models of diffusion advanced e.g. by Zvelebil, then you come to the clear conclusion that it was very much a piecemeal process. Hence, as Alinei points out, Renfrew has a real problem in explaining why there's no substrate in the last areas to be neolithicised e.g. Norway, why there's a long-standing linguistic boundary in N Latvia (i.e. why don't the farmers manage to impose IE on the "Estonians", etc. Estonians are no less Baltic than their Lithuanian and Latvian counterparts (and my childhood book of Baltic folk tales - many of which are pre-Christian, IIRC showed what looked like common pre-Christian traditions - common themes and patterns - which perhaps indicates kinship), BUT Estonians are Finno-Ugric speakers unlike modern Lithuanians and Latvians. Personally, I suspect that IE languages are not the native/ancestral languages of any of the Baltic population, but that the two more southern populations did adopt IE languages unlike Estonians. The alternative is less likely IMO: Finno-Ugric does seem native to at least the Estonian region as these do seem somewhat related to the Finns, besides, unless they are next going to claim that farming (or some other major early technological innovation) dispersed with Finno-Ugric, why would Estonians have "adopted" Estonian? It seems far more likely to wonder why Lithuanians and Latvians gave up their own ancestral tongues to adopt the languages of others. 3. About these 2 statements stolen from comments at that blog entry on the La Brana man: Quote:Tobus said...(I think his Sri Lanka reference as implied in his sequence is to the Veddas alone and not any other kinds of Sri Lankans.) It's really disturbing to think that the KKK and other early slave-holder types (and all extant white-supremacists too, since the phenotypic descriptions of La Brana and other such are quite recent) would have lynched their own recent ancestors in European space living around say 7000 years ago, after first screeching various racial slurs at them. Which would prove my contention that Africans - if they're ever in the mood to annoy just for the hell of it - should claim European populations right until (the rather recent time) these turned homogeneously white. After all, Africans didn't invent the one-drop rule, but to the KKK etc, "if it looks African, it's an African", right? Hold them to it. 4. A pity the following doesn't sound like it will be very effective in conclusively or at least further narrowing down the phenotype of comparatively very ancient human remains, else it may have helped resolve the lay-level controversy surrounding La Brana man's appearance (the "was he or wasn't he" dark in an uncharacteristically European sense): huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/15/dna-hair-color-eye-human-remains_n_2475208.html Quote:DNA Reveals Hair, Eye Color Of Centuries-Old Human Remains, Researchers Say |