What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Printable Version

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What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 06-03-2007

How interesting!! the edits have been made from r1a page but not from r1b page. massa is certainly slipping up with covering his tracks. joker wells has even later date for m17 in his infamous rediff article.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The mutations that characterize haplogroup R1b occurred ~30,000 years bp, whereas the mutations that characterize haplogroup R1a occurred ~10,000 years bp.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Guest - 06-03-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Jun 3 2007, 06:00 AM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Jun 3 2007, 06:00 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->How interesting!! the edits have been made from r1a page but not from r1b page.  massa is certainly slipping up with covering his tracks. joker wells has even later date for m17 in his infamous rediff article.
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The mutations that characterize haplogroup R1b occurred ~30,000 years bp, whereas the mutations that characterize haplogroup R1a occurred ~10,000 years bp.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
seems R1a is a problem haplotype.Many contradictory statemens are made about it.especialy if is conected whit AIT.2years ago it was consider the evidence for AIT as is the only big haplotype comon whit euros.His range of aparition varied betwin 10000 years and 30000years.Are no new information about it.The promised deep reseach was not fulfiled.We must wait some years .?

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 06-03-2007

this is same old line of "problem haplotype" with "multiple independent origins". frankly it is getting very tiring and predictable. Oppenheimer states the problem of the back-to-front distribution of father (Ruslan-R1b) and son (M17) can only be explained by an ice age intervention and differential time depth (see below). R2 anchors these haplos specifically within South asia.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Unlike his son M17, Ruslan does not lurk at the threshold of Eastern Europe.  In fact he is very much commoner in the west, reaching 86 per cent in the Basques and similar...  <b>This back-to-front distribution of father and son suggests that the former may have arrived in Europe earlier. </b> As we shall see in chapter 6, <b>this can be explained by the ice age.  </b><b>Suffice it to say here that although M17 may be a relative newcomer to Europe, </b>his father Ruslan is possibly the strongest male marker line for the original  Early Upper Paleolithic invasion of western Europe form the east around 33,000 years ago.  Between them, this father and son team account for 50 per cent of extant male lines today.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

not only r2 but also P:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet<b> Ruslan's genetic father P,</b> whom I shall call Polo...,<b> is confined to India, pakistan, Central Asia, and America.  </b>Study of the geographical distribution and the diversity of genetic branches and stems again suggests that Ruslan, along with his son M17, arose early in South Asia, somewhere near India and subsequently spread.....<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

so there you have it. K (Krishna), P, and R2, the entire gamut of beatified progenitors of M17, have a distribution centering around India. To placate Semino, Oppenheimer goes with an older age for M17 but he clearly takes the pain to mention the lower estimates and chastise Semino:

"Semino and colleagues <span style='color:blue'>dispense with genetic dating </span>and have both M17 and his father, M173, as part of an archeologically dated Paleolithic movement from the east to west 30,000 years ago."

Clearly this is in conflict with his own opinion that there was a time gap in the migration events of 173 and 17: "Suffice it to say here that although M17 may be a relative newcomer to Europe, [/B]his father Ruslan is possibly the strongest male marker line for the original Early Upper Paleolithic invasion of western Europe form the east around 33,000 years ago."

again he takes the pains to mention:

footnote 34 p 393 "other methods of calculation yield much lower estimates." - concerning M17.

footnote 35 p 393 " Quintana-Murci et al .. tentatively suggests that the expansion into Europe started only around 5,000 years ago with the advent of farming." - concerning M17.

footnote 11 p 415 "Later post-glacial expansions into that region could have the same effect - Semino et al.." - concerning M17 in Carpathian region.

Finally, if all this is not evident for you, see appendix 2: The sons of Adam
R1a1b and R1a1c are simply not present in WEurasia while they are included in diverusty profile of C Asia/South Asia

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 06-04-2007

Phinally let me remind you the statement by Witzel clown who took Underhill's personal testimony at some or other jokers conference. We can ignore the usual witzelian caveats.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Of special interest is R1a1-M17 (which he discovered in 1995) and that has often
been attributed to the spread of Indo-European (while Hindutvavadins let it
originate in India). T<b>hat is a gross simplification. According to him, it
probably arose in the area around the Hindukush around 10,000 BC (+/- 3000
years), </b>and spread eastwards and westwards. It has the largest impact on S. Asia
(some 25%), but is found from E. Europe to India. However, its resolution, that
means as subgroups of M17, still are too inadequate, so that nothing specific
can be said about a possible (re-)introduction of a variety of M17 into S. Asia
[along with the Aryans].<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 06-04-2007

stupid clown witzel could not keep his mouth shut. what a joker.

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 06-11-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Genetic diversity among East Asian accessions of the barley core collection as revealed by six isozyme loci</b>

F. Liu1, R. von Bothmer1, B. Salomon1

1Department of Plant Breeding Research, The Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, S-268 31 Svalöv, Sweden

Studies of allelic variations at six isozyme loci revealed genetic diversity of 380 East Asian accessions of the Barley Core Collection. Genetic variation was found in both cultivars and landraces in different regions. Allelic variations at the Aco-1 and Aco-2 loci were detected for East Asian barley for the first time. Moreover, the Aco-1 locus displayed the highest genetic diversity among the six loci assayed. <b>Indian cultivars showed the highest diversity, followed by Korean and Chinese cultivars.</b> Landraces from Bhutan and Nepal showed the lowest diversity. Cultivars had generally higher diversity than landraces within as well as among regions. <b>The cluster analysis of genetic identity showed that all landraces from different countries can be placed in one group; the cultivars from Japan, India and Korea each form independent groups. </b>Gpi-1 Gu, Pgd-1 Tj, Aco-1 Si, Ndh-2 D and Aco-2 A were rare alleles found in only a few accessions of 6-rowed barley. The Pgd-2 Tn allele was very rare in East Asian accessions.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 06-18-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->SeaWhere River Meets
David Bulbeck
Current Anthropology, volume 48 (2007), pages 315–321

Recent genetic research suggests an expansion along the tropical coastline of the Indian Ocean, between 75,000 and 60,000 years ago, of the population which included the ancestors of all of the non-African human mitochondrial DNA lineages known today. In view of the arid sections along this coastal stretch, irregularly punctuated by resource-rich estuaries, and the crossings over open sea during the last leg to Australia/New Guinea, this expansion would necessarily have involved the features of watercraft, portage of potable water, and adaptation to estuaries. These features could well have been the cultural basis for the <b>rapid tropical dispersal </b>of Homo sapiens out of Africa to Australia/New Guinea.

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 06-18-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Note that haplogroup R1b and haplogroup R1a first existed at very different times. </b>The mutations that characterize haplogroup R1b occurred ~30,000 years bp, whereas the mutations that characterize haplogroup R1a occurred ~10,000 years bp. wiki link<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 06-18-2007


O2a-M95 Clade
Balaji Athreyan  (25 August 2006)  Private Individual email

(1) There are a couple of minor typographical errors. The authors refer to the "J172 clad" instead of "J172 clade". In another place they write "sister clads" instead of "sister clades".

(2) <b>The authors assume that the O2a-M95 clade dates to the initial settlement of the Indian subcontinent by moderen humans some 60,000 years ago and that this clade spread to Southeast Asia from India. This is highly unlikely.</b>

The two excellent papers on Indian Y-chromosomes earlier this year, Sahoo et al., Proc. Nat. Acad. Sci., vol. 103, no. 4, 843-848, Jan. 2006 and Sengupta et al., Am. J. Hum. Gen., vol. 78, 202-221, Feb. 2006 both suggest an exogenous origin for M95.

<b>It is most likely that migrants from Southeast Asia speaking Austro-Asiatic langauges introduced this clade to India via the Northeast border region.</b>

(3) The conclusions of this paper are based essentially on the data presented in Table 5 - analysis of molecular variance.

This table shows that the percentage of variance among tribal groups in mtDNA is 6.38%. Yet the authors state that the vast majority of the Indian maternal gene pool is genetically more or less uniform. This is a reasonable conclusion since the tribes are small endogamous groups subject to the effects of drift.

But by the same token, most castes are also small endogamous groups. <b>The authors are making a lot from the 6.17% variance between tribes and upper castes in Y-chromosome DNA when this number is actually smaller than the 6.38% variance in mtDNA between the tribes themselves!
Table 4 of the paper shows that all the major Y-chromosome haplogroups found in India are present in all caste and tribal groups. The major difference is in the O clades which are more than 4 times as prevalent among the tribes as among the upper castes.

I do not believe the conclusions of the paper are warranted by the data presented. The most that can be said with the data at hand is in the words of Kivisild et al. "The genetic heritage of the earliest settlers persists both in Indian tribal and caste populations".<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - acharya - 06-18-2007

"The genetic heritage of the earliest settlers persists both in Indian tribal and caste populations".

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 06-19-2007

<img src='' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Colbert, Edwin H.    <b>Was the extinct Giraffe (Sivatherium) known to the early Sumerians?</b> American Anthropologist October-December 1936 Vol.38(4):605-608

Colbert’s objective is to discuss the relationship between the extinct giraffe, Sivatherium, a genus of Giraffidae, and if Sivatherium was known by the early Sumerians. He is concerned about the actual relationship between the two because an object, which was proved to be a cooper rein ring, was found at an archaeological excavation in Kish, Iraq. The Field Museum-Oxford University Joint Expedition discovered the cooper rein ring constructed so to fit on the tongue of a chariot. The article states, "it was found at the 3500 BC level, associated with the remains of a chariot, and nearby were found skeletal remains and teeth of Equus" (p 605). The rein ring is surmounted by a small figurine, which reveals some similarities to an antlered animal. The author notes, "this is a most unusual association, since rein rings from Kish commonly carry figures of equids as decorations. This figurine in question was supposed to be representative of a peculiar kind of stag… There are certain reasons to think, however, that the statuette may actually depict Sivatherium, an extinct genus of the Giraffidae" (p 605).

The author makes the point that the figurine could also resemble the species Cervus eldi or Cervus axis, species of deer. He is very skeptical about the similarities. Colbert states in the article, "if the figurine does represent a deer, the two small conical knobs or prongs on the forehead, directly above the eyes, are difficult to explain. No known deer have frontal growths such as these" (p 605-606). He also points out a small Indian antelope, Tetracerus quadricornis, "which has an anterior pair of frontal horns as well as the typical bovine parietal horns" (p 606). Evidence shows this animal is very small in size, and the horns are prongs, not resembling the skull structures of the figurine.

<b>Sivatherium originated in India, but there is evidence that may put this species in Africa. In Africa, Dr. Leakey found a horn core that resembled that of a Sivatherium. This Dr. Leakey indicated that, "Sivatherium migrated from India, the place of its origin, to Africa. This migration must have followed a route through Asia Minor" (p 607).</b>

This article is short and to the point, however, it does not conclude if the extinct giraffe, Sivatherium, is related to the genus Giraffidae. It focuses on the main points that the figurine in question does not resemble a deer or an antelope, but it does not actually provide evidence of what the figurine really resembles. The author proposes theories about how the early Sumerians may have seen the species Sivatherium, but he has no actual core facts. There are illustrations, which show the similarities between the figurine and Sivatherium.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Title: Sivatherium

Contact: Laurie O'Keefe

Description: <b>Ancient Asian giraffid (Sivatherium giganteum) possessed much larger horns than the modern day giraffe and became extinct 5000 years ago. </b>Wash/photoshop image originally created for the Smithsonian-Behring Family Hall of Mammals exhibit


<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Once the cheetah's range ran from India, through the Middle East and extended to the very south of the African continent. Today, to the north, the Asian cheetah, A.j.venaticus is almost extinct and can only be found in a few remote areas of Iran and Afghanistan. In Africa, with the spread of the human influence and exploitation in hunting, the cheetah's range has shrunken dramatically - now only the grasslands and plains of east and central Africa are home to its dwindling numbers.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Indian Cheetah
by K. L. Kamat

Not too long ago, the Cheetah  roamed in the Indian subcontinent but the rich people's greed for hunt (shikar) has resulted in wiping out its population completely. The records show that the last three cheetahs were shot dead in mid 1950s by a party of hunters who belonged to a royal family. Thus Asiatic Cheetah are extinct in India.

Like the leopard (panther), the cheetah belongs to mammalian order Carnivaora; family Felidae' genus Acinonyx. In general format, it very much resembles a hunting dog depicted in an ancient sculpture of Mudhol (Bijapur district, Karnataka) A lean and light weight body, long legs, tiny head are all streamlined for speed. It has beautiful light yellow coat, covered with black or brown spots. A distinctive black marking on either side of its face is like a long, black teardrop. Its young one is very charming with gray bushy hair on its back and neck. As it grows, this hair falls off and uniform, short, coarse fur develops in its place. Both young ones and adults cannot pull in their claws, a feature that could be found among dogs.

The Cheetah is a grassland animal, and avoids forest and dense brush. At times it scouts the area from low branches of a tree and then flattens itself against ground and waits for its prey to come as close as possible. Suddenly it charges with lightening speed, jumping on its preys back or seizing it by the throat from the side. It relies on speed, sprinting at more than 1.5 kilometer a minute, over a short distance to make its kill. It slows down quickly after the first sprint of charge. Even a slight leg injury may result in starvation. A small antelope is its preferred prey. A full fed cheetah does not bother to glance at a group of deer that are grazing with a striking distance. It hunts during the day individually or in the company of the other members of the family.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 06-19-2007

CCMB Scientist received UKIERI Major Award

Dr. K. Thangaraj, Scientist from the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology (CCMB), Hyderabad has received the first Major <b>UK-India Education and Research Initiative (UKIERI) Award launched by the UK Prime Minister, Tony Blair, and announced during his last visit to India </b>that the UKIERI was to promote the innovative research and academic excellence between the UK and India. This award has been given to Dr. Thangaraj and his collaborators Dr. Mart Mirazon Lahr and Dr. Toomas Kivisild of Cambridge University for a 4-year collaborative project, which involves genetic analysis of the various populations in India. This is the first major award given to carry out research in the field of genomics out of the 6 major awards selected from 103 proposals from India and the UK. This award carries a research grant of Rs. 2.5 crores (= 430.000 Euro). The British government has allocated a budget of 12 Mio. Pounds for UKIERI until 2011.

    (Press Release, CSIR, 21.01.2007)
India joins Human Frontier Science Program Organization....
<img src='' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
This newsletter has been prepared by the Science Section of the Embassy of the Federal Republic of Germany, New Delhi. Texts of articles from science magazines and newspapers have been edited for their length and are partly based on information from the Embassy. No responsibility for the content of the articles is accepted.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Guest - 06-19-2007

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Guest - 06-20-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-Honsol+Jun 19 2007, 05:27 AM-->QUOTE(Honsol @ Jun 19 2007, 05:27 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
you can see the pics in the pdf:

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Guest - 06-20-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Map of Human Migration
<img src='' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

A paper by Sengupta et al. offers a different theory. The main findings regarding R2 are:
• The geographic distribution of R2 mirrors closely the geographic distribution of R1a.
• The paper suggests that the origin of R1a in India was not Central Asia or the Indus valley. Wells by
contrast states that R1 originated in Central Eurasia, with R1b moving further west, and R1a staying in
Western Eurasia and moving east, towards India/Central Asia.
• The paper claims that there is no evidence that Central Asia was the source of the R1a and R2 lineages
in India. The theory that Central Asia could have been the recipient of the two lineages from India should
not be ruled out.
The paper disputes the theory that places the origin of R* in Central Asia. When one takes into consideration the
overall findings, the following scenario can be theorized:
• R* (ancestral clade to R2) emerged from an area located somewhere in the north of the Indian subcontinent.
Whether this area is in Baluchistan, the Punjab or West Bengal is yet unclear.
• An initial movement of R1 into Central Asia, and henceforth into Europe (figure 5).
• A subsequent movement of R1a into other parts of India and into Central Asia.
• A movement of R2 into other parts of India and into Central Asia (figure 6).
• When and where the R1a clade emerged from the main R1 clade is not addressed by this particular
• Whether R2 broke off from the its ancestral R* clade before or after its sister clade R1 is not addressed
Figure 5<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - Guest - 06-20-2007
says at about 74,000 years mt. touba in sumatra errupted..6 years of nuclear winter and 1000 years of ice age from then. Since this happened in Indian ocean, I can see the various yuga. Can experts here point to which yuga start was at about 73,000 years ago. ??

plus plus ++:-
It says 5 meters of ash covered India and pakistan. That means any excavation to find 74K years and above earlier period information has to be obtained only after digging 5 meters of earth.


What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - acharya - 06-21-2007

<img src='' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

<img src='' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 06-21-2007

The clowns will not even admit Haplo H as indigeneous to India. There is only one way to describe such people: academic terrorists. check the genopgraphic site; they say "southern Central Asia" -

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 06-21-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Haplogroup F (Y-DNA)

..This ancient haplogroup may have first appeared in North Africa some 45,000 years before present. It is sometimes believed to represent a "second-wave" of expansion out of Africa. However, the location of this lineage's first expansion and rise to dominance appears to have been in India or somewhere close to it within South Asia or the Middle East; <b>all of Haplogroup F's descendant haplogroups also show a pattern of radiation from South Asia (haplogroups G, H, and K) </b>or the Middle East (haplogroup IJ). ....<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

wait wait, isn't this the so-called west eurasian package. what's it doing radiating out of south Asia. now we understand why it is so important to get H out of South India; the favorite place of course is southern central asia, the southern edge of the steppe, etc; if that cant work, ME will be substituted. pattern of lies is always the same.

What DNA Says About Aryan Invasion Theory -2 - dhu - 07-29-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Structural Phylogenetics and the Reconstruction of Ancient Language History</b>
Michael Dunn, Angela Terrill, Ger Reesink, Robert A. Foley, Stephen C. Levinson
Science 23 September 2005:
Vol. 309. no. 5743, pp. 2072 - 2075

The contribution of language history to the study of the early dispersals of modern humans throughout the Old World has been limited by the shallow time depth (about 8000 ± 2000 years) of current linguistic methods. Here it is shown that the application of biological cladistic methods, not to vocabulary (as has been previously tried) but to language structure (sound systems and grammar), may extend the time depths at which language data can be used. The method was tested against well-understood families of Oceanic Austronesian languages, then applied to the Papuan languages of Island Melanesia, a group of hitherto unrelatable isolates. Papuan languages show an archipelago-based phylogenetic signal that is consistent with the current geographical distribution of languages. <b>The most plausible hypothesis to explain this result is the divergence of the Papuan languages from a common ancestral stock, as part of late Pleistocene dispersals.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->