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+--- Thread: Unmasking AIT (/showthread.php?tid=572)
Unmasking AIT - dhu - 06-15-2007
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The term Western world or "the West" (also on rare occasions called the Occident) can have multiple meanings depending on its context (e.g., the time period, or the social situation). Accordingly, the basic definition of what constitutes the West will vary, expanding and contracting. The historic West originated in the Mediterranean (ancient Greece and ancient Rome), but it came to include Central and Western Europe, although some would include the whole of Europe (except in terms of Church, i.e., Eastern Christianity), as well as perhaps all of Russia (except during the U.S.S.R. era). <b>Linguistically the frontier would run as far as India. </b>Since Columbus the notion of the West has expanded to include North America and South America, though much of Latin America has more pre-Western influence; later still, Australia and New Zealand. Yet during the Cold War the core of the West was often confined to N.A.T.O. countries.[1] Today, in a political or economic context, perhaps the West would also include, e.g., Japan, or Israel. In a world religious context, some would include those faiths acknowledging Abraham. Generally speaking, the current consensus would locate the West in, at the least, the cultures and peoples of Europe, the two Americas, and Australia.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unmasking AIT - dhu - 06-16-2007
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->âThose who (in philosophy) make use of myth are unworthy of serious considerationâ.
Aristotle, Metaphysics.
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Unmasking AIT - Guest - 06-25-2007
<!--QuoteBegin-ben_ami+Jul 26 2006, 11:51 PM-->QUOTE(ben_ami @ Jul 26 2006, 11:51 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-acharya+Jul 27 2006, 02:59 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(acharya @ Jul 27 2006, 02:59 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->THis is a linguistic question. This thread is only for unmasking AIT.
Please put it in the linguistic thread. Philology and linguistics are not exact science and the tradition and precedence of 100 years is still carried out in the linguistic community.
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true that mine is specifically a linguistic question.
but the AIT or its alternative has to explain a lot of things, linguistic or otherwise.
the horse thingie, the "sea" in the vedas, <b>the real date of the writing of the vedas etc etc.</b>
the linquistic part is also one of the main points that needs be resolved, along wit genetics based arguements, archeology based arguements etc etc. cant leave ANY loose strings.
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Sorry to quote this late in the thread.. but with what little i can think:-
There is no real date for vedas. Yes. Thats what it is.. It is wisdom manifests the language of Gods(this itself is a modern definition) for humans. No body wrote it to take individual credits.
Ved Vyaas did not write vedas, but he compiled them.
One of the best guess could be that it is so old that the language had no written form (only spoken), plus giving the uderstandings of collective intelligence of man who lived perhaps millions or years or as old one can think off... One could say in modern way, that is a human experience,.. even the earlier or well known Hindu Gods lived with Vedic wisdom.
Thus, vedas gives a fanstastic linkage between Man, Intelligence & collective wisdom, and Science. Gods and Lords are the new age concepts after invasionists ( christians, greeks, mohammad etc)started plundering the vedic thoughts since 2 thousand plus years.
Unmasking AIT - dhu - 06-26-2007
Apart form Greek Utopian thought, we have the need to ascertain historicity...
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Many ancient philosophers viewed Atlantis as fiction, including (according to Strabo), Aristotle. However, in antiquity, there were also philosophers, geographers, and historians who believed that Atlantis was real.[4] <b>For instance, the philosopher Crantor, a student of Plato's student Xenocrates, tried to find proof of Atlantis' existence.</b> His work, a commentary on Plato's Timaeus, is lost, but another ancient historian, Proclus, reports that<b> Crantor traveled to Egypt and actually found columns with the history of Atlantis written in hieroglyphic characters</b>.[5] However, Plato did not write that Solon saw the Atlantis story on a column but on a source that can be "taken to hand".[6] Proclus' proof appears implausible.
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rudbeck_Atlantis.jpg
A 17th century artwork of researchers and scientists searching for Atlantis' location<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unmasking AIT - dhu - 06-29-2007
As always, these ruskis are full of phantasy. As if Bolshevism were not enough.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia_Party
"In principle, <b>Eurasia and our space, the heartland (Russia), </b>remain the staging area of a new ...
..
It is a traditionalist party, founded on a system of values elaborated by the traditional Eurasian confessions â Orthodoxy, Islam, Judaism, and <b>Buddhism</b>. The Church is rightly separated from the State; but it is inseparable from the society, culture, education, and information.
..<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unmasking AIT - Guest - 07-07-2007
<!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteBegin-dhu+May 27 2006, 04:23 AM-->QUOTE(dhu @ May 27 2006, 04:23 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Myth of Aryan Invasion Update</b>Written by Dr. David FrawleyÂ
2005 Edition Preface
The Myth of the Aryan Invasion was first written in 1994 in order to summarize important new information on the ancient history of India that refutes commonly held views on the subject inherited from the nineteenth century. It was a condensation of longer material from books of mine like Gods, Sages and Kings, Vedic Aryans and the Origins of Civilization (with N.S. Rajaram) and In Search of the Cradle of Civilization (with Georg Feuerstein and Subhash Kak). The 2001 update reflected my recent book Rigveda and the History of India that pushed the Vedic horizon further into the South India.
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Unmasking AIT - Guest - 07-10-2007
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Modern humans reached India early
N. Gopal Raj
Evidence found in excavations by international team of scientists at Jwalapuram in Kurnool district of Andhra Pradesh
http://www.hindu.com/2007/07/09/stories/2007070955141300.htm
â Photo: Ravi Korisettar
Ravi Korisettar and Michael Petraglia (in the foreground) at one of the excavation sites.
THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: In the course of archaeological excavations at Jwalapuram in Kurnool district of Andhra Pradesh, an international team of scientists has found evidence that anatomically modern humans are likely to have reached India before a massive volcanic eruption in what is today Indonesia occurred tens of thousands of years ago.
âSuper-eruptionâ
The âsuper-eruptionâ of the Toba volcano in Sumatra some 74,000 years ago was the largest volcanic event to have occurred in the last two million years and the ash thrown up high into the atmosphere by that cataclysmic explosion reached India too, said Ravi Korisettar of the Department of History and Archaeology at Karnatak University in Dharwad, Karnataka.
During five years of excavations at Jwalapuram, Indian, British, and Australians scientists unearthed fine stone flakes that had been turned into tools for various purposes.
The stone tools were to be found in layers of earth above as well as below the fine ash from the Toba super-eruption, the scientists noted in a paper published in the latest issue of the journal Science.
âVolcanic winterâ
It had been thought that the vast amounts of volcanic ash flung into the atmosphere by the eruption could have blocked sunlight and produced a âvolcanic winterâ that decimated the humans living then. But the evidence from the Jwalapuram excavations, however, suggests that the volcanic eruption did not have such a catastrophic impact on the early human population there.
Stone tools
The stone tools also pointed to a more exciting possibility. The stone tool assemblages found in Jwalapuram were âvery similar to ones that we see produced in Africa at the same time,â said Michael Petraglia of the Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies at the University of Cambridge in the U.K, the first author of the paper.
Those stone tools in Africa had been produced by modern humans.
âCloser affinitiesâ
In the Science paper, the researchers noted that the techniques used for making the stone tools at Jwalapuram suggested âcloser affinitiesâ to African Middle Stone Ages traditions than to contemporaneous Eurasian ones. T his finding is significant because genetic studies of tell-tale patterns in the DNA of people living in various parts of the world have supported the view that all modern humans arose in Africa.
It is believed that these modern humans then migrated out of Africa and settled all across the globe.
âSo what we are saying is that modern humans probably dispersed from Africa into India at a very early date, earlier than anyone has suggested before,â Dr. Petraglia told this correspomndent.
There is a hypothesis that modern humans could have taken the âsouthern route of dispersal,â utilising the coastlines to travel from Africa, through Arabia, across the Indian subcontinent and then into South-East Asia and finally into Australia, he said. The presence of modern humans in India at the time of the Toba super-eruption would be consistent with humans having used the southern route, but would remain speculative till further excavations were carried out in the Indian subcontinent and Arabian peninsula, remarked the scientists in their journal paper.
Key role
India has a played a key role in the migration of modern humans out of Africa, says K. Thangaraj of the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology at Hyderabad. In a paper published in Science two years ago, Dr. Thangaraj and others held that genetic lineages to be found among Andaman islanders supported an out-of-Africa migration by modern humans some 50,0000 to 70,000 years ago.
Archaeological data
Dr. Korisettar is, however, sceptical about modern humans opting for a coastal route for their migration.
There was currently no archaeological evidence of such ancient human migrations along Indiaâs west coast and into southern Tamil Nadu. Rather, the available archaeological data favoured a continental route whereby early humans came through the Bolan and Khyber passes to the north-western parts of the Indian subcontinent and then into Rajasthan before dispersing to other parts of the country, he added.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unmasking AIT - Guest - 07-11-2007
http://members.tripod.com/ahsaligarh/river.htm
How correct is this Marxist historians perspective on Saraswati river?
Unmasking AIT - Guest - 07-12-2007
Jaggu: Irfan Habib's well known promoter of a pliagarist who coincidently happened to be his protege. Not sure as to who was ripped off in that Sarasvati write up. Probabily Witzel or Farmer or Jha.
On Sarasvati Civilization, Dr Kalayanaram's a pretty good authority having written a few books on the same. See the thread on India-Forum with links in there. Haven't seen Dr K around IF in a while, he could have punctured a few holes in Habib's theory.
Unmasking AIT - Guest - 07-14-2007
Jaggu:
Hope this helps
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The bogus lecture by Irfan Habib at the Kolkata Indan History Congress meet was demolished by Prof. Shivaji Singh, President, Akhila Bharatiya Itihasa Sankalana Yojana (of which Sarasvati Reseach is a part) -- on Nov. 17, 2006 at Kurukshetra adhives'an. Here are the links.Â
http://sarasvati95.googlepages.com/abisy Scroll down to read:
IT IS TIME TO ORGANIZE AND INTENSIFY EFFORTS: INDIAN HISTORY CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO REMAIN UNDER SIEGE ANYMORE
Hindi version is at http://sarasvati95.googlepages.com/ITISTIM...on_12-11-06.doc
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Unmasking AIT - acharya - 07-15-2007
Indian history still under seize
As is well known, the study of Indian history in modern times began in the late 18th century when the country was under colonial control. Most of the early workers in the field were Europeans who were grounded naturally in European view of history based on Greek historical tradition with little or no knowledge of Indian tradition of historiography. While credit must be given to them for laying the foundation of historical, archaeological and epigraphical studies on India, the overall impact of the history written in the colonial era proved to be extremely disastrous for the country. <span style='color:red'>Several myths were created and perpetuated by historians of the colonial era as, for example:
· The ancient Indians had no sense of history;
· The forefathers of all Indians, barring those of a few so-called âaboriginalsâ, had come here from outside;
· The âAryansâ were barbarous nomadic people who invaded and destroyed the then existing Dravidian civilization in the Indus Valley forcing its inhabitants to move towards south;
· Indian history has three main periods: Hindu, Muslim and British; and each period had started with invasion or arrival of a more powerful people from outside; etc.
Since independence, the political circumstances in the country have been such that historians of Marxist leanings have constantly dominated the field of Indian historical studies except for a short break when Bharatiya Janata Party was in power. Though they have given a new face to Indian history by their interpretations based on Marxist doctrine of dialectical materialism (that in itself is a mix of Hegel and British economics), they have remained as anti-Vedic as were most of the historians of the colonial era. They repeatedly talk of the triad feudalism, capitalism and socialism in context of Indian history too, but never seriously consider a revision of the British periodization of Indian history. They remain contended with the cosmetic change in the nomenclatures from Hindu, Muslim and British to ancient, medieval and modern.
However, unfortunate is not what they did not do or could not do as yet, but what they have actually done so far. They have enthusiastically perpetuated the myths created by the colonial historians besides adding several new ones. They are definitely better than their colonial counterparts in theoretical sophistication, which greatly enhances their damaging capacity. In fact, they have kept Indian history under seize by fabricating âfactsâ and imposing wrong concepts. It is only recently, with rediscovery of the Vedic river Sarasvat⦠that their hold on Indian history has started loosening.
</span>
Unmasking AIT - Guest - 07-15-2007
Reconstitution of Indus valley figurines
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/5647/230402kt3.gif
Unmasking AIT - dhu - 07-18-2007
only abstract available:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Unabated Hindu Intellectual Traditions: A Study in comparison to Hellenism
Professor Daya Nath Tripathi
Chairman, Indian Council of Historical Research
..
The intellectual tradition of India is far wide and rich, both in time and space, than any other intellectual traditions. Hellenism and Hinduism are basically responsible for the growth of the basic tenets of the Occidental and Oriental cultures respectively. Since Hellenism and Hinduism represent the real spirit and values of the two different world-views of the Indo-European people living in two extremes of the geographical horizons of the Indo-European world, and that they have long tradition and history much of which still survive in India and not in Greece, <b>I have decided to examine in this paper, in short, the possible reasons for the continuity of the basic spirit in India and the loss of the same in the Greek world-view.</b>
The area and topics of discussion on this subject could be quite wide. Since many scholars, both in India and out side, have discussed some of the topics at length, I have selected some basic concepts from the two cultures for discussion in this paper. <b>The nature, origin, and evolution of languages, the concept of man and the idea of humanism, the concept of cosmology and cosmogony, the nature of justice, social justice, and the meaning and nature of ethics</b> would be my main concern, as <b>these elements form the very core of any culture and civilization.</b> DOWNLOAD DOC<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unmasking AIT - ramana - 07-27-2007
I was thinking just yesterday while driving home that the problem of Indian history is that it is written by European Christians and Indian Muslims and now Secular Indians. The same problem occurs with books on Hinduism- the Western writers interpret through their own bias and the Indian writers have such atrocious writing skills that they turn off most readers.
Last night I attended a Satyanarayana Puja at a friends house and the priest who lives in Fremont had such mastery over the subject and had a good commentary on Lord Venkateshwara that I asked him to record his speech in MP3 format. Will see where it goes.
He has a website:
www.vedamantaram.com
Unmasking AIT - Guest - 07-27-2007
Ramana, imo:
1. this is true, for history in english language. Scholars in Indic languages have been generating some very good history writing esp. in Hindi, Marathi, Kannada etc.
2. there has also been a consistent stream of neutral Indian historian too - neither Muslim, nor psec./lefty, and writing very good Indian History in English language - Neelkanth Shastry, Jadunath Sarkar, RC Majumdar etc., just before psecs/lefties hijacked it. Unfortunately, they are not given enough attention in our contemporary times, as much as they deserve. Many of their books are not even in circulation now. I have been looking for certain books of these writers - and unable to find.
Unmasking AIT - ramana - 07-27-2007
Honsol, where did you get those from?
Reason is if you see the Roshan Alkazi sketches of the different historical periods- Maurya, Gupta etc (posted in the Dress styles thread) certain main elements of Indian dress have not changed since Indus! That shows the continuity of the civilization.
Unmasking AIT - Guest - 07-27-2007
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Jul 27 2007, 09:04 PM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Jul 27 2007, 09:04 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Honsol, where did you get those from?
Reason is if you see the Roshan Alkazi sketches of the different historical periods- Maurya, Gupta etc (posted in the Dress styles thread) certain main elements of Indian dress have not changed since Indus! That shows the continuity of the civilization.
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Id search a lot about all kinds of reconstitutions and reconstructions of the ancient cultures.Even i have reason to belive that punjabi festive turban have origin in the indus valley culture(if you observe the shape of head hats ).
The polish art historian Michael Sobeski make the statement that asirryan(asiro-babilonian) art is close conected whit indian art and is totaly clear that both have the same,identical origin.
From asirryan art later develop and greatly influenced especialy byzantine,persian and islamic art,dress style and many others.
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6241/53...ultfig01mn9.gif
Unmasking AIT - ramana - 07-27-2007
Yes but you have not answered my question. <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->Again, where did you get the gif or did you re-construct it?
Thanks, ramana
Unmasking AIT - ramana - 07-28-2007
From Dhu's post above:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Burden of Bad Ideas: Some Critical Issues in the Vedic- Harappan Historiography
Professor Shiva G. Bajpai
Professor Emeritus of History, California State University, Northridge, CA.91330-8250
The presentation will deal with the current status of the Aryan Invasion theory that postulates that the Vedic Aryan invaded India in the mid-2nd millennium B.C.E. and developed the Vedic culture on the ruins of a glorious urban Harappan or Indus valley civilization of the 4th to 2nd millennium B.C.E. Despite the recent researches exploding this alien myth, the belief in the theory lingers on in the main stream historiography and, more importantly, in the most influential text books on Indian history and culture such as the newly revised Romila Thaparâs Early history of India (University of California Press, Berkeley, 2002; First published by Pelican Books, A History of India. vol .one, 1966). Additionally, the vast quantity of materials on various internet websites perpetuates this myth.
My perspective as well as of other scholars argues for the convergence of the Harappan and Vedic cultures on the basis of hard evidence of the Rig Veda and theVedic-Puranic tradition, the Vedic historical geography and the ancient archaeology. The first part of my presentation reiterates my earlier conclusions on the identity of the Sarasvati River with the modern Sarasvati- Ghaggar River, the home of the Vedic Aryans. The profusely celebrated River once flowed from the mountains to the sea ( RV 7.95.2) , but it dried up in the sands of Rajasthan near the archaeological site of modern Kalibangan ( ancient Vinashana) in about 2000- 1900 B.C.E. This identification has been reinforced among others by the eminent archaeologist, Professor B.B.Lal in his book, The Sarsvati Flows On, New Delhi: 2002. That the Sarasvati River constituted the central region of the Vedic culture is further reinforced by the identification of the Sarasvati-Drishadvati doab as the epicenter of the Vedic culture describe as â the navel of the earth ( RV 3.29.4 -nabha prithivya) and âthe earthâs most excellent portionâ( RV 3.23.4 & 3.53.11- vara a prithivya,)in the Rig Veda and called Brahmavarta (the Divine Land) in the later historical tradition. The extensive Vedic ecumene called the Sapta-Sidhu country extended from the Ganga in the east to the Indus including its tributary Kubha ( Kabul) River of the Hindukush Mountains in the west (RV 10.75). This extensive country is the main area of the Harappan Civilization as well. The composition of the Rig Veda, at least its 7th mandala (Book) and the presence of the Vedic aryans, therefore, must antedate 2000 B.C.E.when the perennial river Sarasvati dried up causing extensive ruin. Archaeologically, the Harappan civilization also declined about the same time. Additionally, the archeo-anthropological findings preclude any discontinuity in the population make-up between 4500 and 800 B.C.E. in the northwestern India. The 800 B.C.E.- date is too late for the arrival of the Vedic Aryans by the universal scholarly verdict and their immigration between 6000 B.C.E. and 4500 B.C.E. has yet to be established. The Rig Veda and the Vedic Aryans must, therefore, be placed at least between 4500 and 2000 B.C.E., thus overlapping the Harappan culture in time and space.
Finally, I examine the historical implications of the confluence of the Vedic and Harappan cultures with a view to solving the riddle of their dichotomy and suggesting a new model of historical explanation. The validity of my historical reconstruction derives from the available hard evidence which effectively counters the theory of supposed evidence explicated by western methodology, especially of socio- linguistics. The methodological sophistication is no substitute for historical evidence; it does not by itself establish the truth of history. Further, a historiography based on the absence of evidence of certain elements of the Harappan matrial cultue in the Vedas and of the Vedic culture in the extant Harappan archeological record is not evidence of absence. There are other valid explanations and tenable historical interpretations consistent with the diversity and complmentarity character of the traditional Indian culture.
One wonders why this myth of the Aryan Invasion is still taken seriously by the establishment academics and their followers. The explantion lie principally in the understanding that its origins began in the orbit of colonial orientalism in the 19th century; and it is a perspective, which the present-day neo-orientalists continue to perpetuate on account of their methodological affinities and ideological agendas. What were, in fact, wrong ideas have become bad ideas, burdening historical narratives and interpretations.. Indians like others have lived with their past, while the neo-orientalist continue to live in the past ingeniously perpetuating their myths.
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Unmasking AIT - Guest - 07-28-2007
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Jul 27 2007, 10:06 PM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Jul 27 2007, 10:06 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes but you have not answered my question. <!--emo&
--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->Again, where did you get the gif or did you re-construct it?
Thanks, ramana
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I dont know from were;i have this picture in my computer from about a year.I dont remember from were.It was a site from the internet.I dont know the name.