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Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Printable Version
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Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 03-30-2007

Husky, Ramana,

Only place I had seen Iran connected with Parasuram was based on philology and geographical speculations, and may very well be just that, a speculation. As far as Mahabharat itself is concerned, it does mention names and geographic descriptions of places, connected with Parashurama (e.g where he performed a great Yagya after vanquishing vile Kshatriyas, where he created 5 lakes to fill the dead bodies, where Karna trained under him, where he met Rama (son of Dasaratha) etc., and places described are actually all over India. These include indeed a place specifically said to be between a sea-shore and a hill, which is where he lived when Karna found him, might very well be Kerala (or Eastern Iran, or so many others). First hand, I have not come across ParasUya or similar name so far explicitly mentioned with Parasurama, but only seen it on some mahabharat-era map someone had prepared based upon scriptural evidences like Mahabharata (and probably Sthala Upapuranas).

Solomon, please do post your findings.

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-03-2007

St.Thomas Fables-Historical Analysis.

Dear Friends,

We see a story repeated so often being summerised as follows
“Tradition says that Christianity on the Malabar Coast of India Originated with St.Thomas, one of the Twelve Apostles of Jesus Christ. St.Thomas is supposed to have Landed at Cranganore in about 52AD, preached the Gospel to people and Organised Christian communities in several Places and established Seven (7) Churches. In 345AD, Palestinian Businessman Thomas Cana along with 72 families came and settled in Kerala thereby augmenting the Christian community. … There are quiet a few prefer to deny the coming of St.Thomas to India, they do not however explain the Orinin of Christianity in India or adduce any reason for discrediting the Tradition about St.Thomas..”
– Page-104Christianity in Inida-Its True Face” , Dr.John Vellamattam, Addl. Secretary of CBCI, and a former Principal of a College in Kerala.

We get many books written by Bishops and Christian Professors making a list of Alleged proofs for the above claims that of the visit of St.Thomas.

Now I shall analyse all claims, but for easy I List here their main claims:

1. Acts of Thomas- a Apocryphal NT book originally written in Syrian Language, Author Unknown, normally dated to early Third Century.
2. Roman Church Records of 4/5 or Later Centuries.
3. Travelers Remarks.
4. Marco Polo- the Venetian Travelers Remarks
5. Findings of Roman Coins in South India/
6. Jewish Presence in India.
7. Kerala’s Malayalam Song – Ramban Pattu which describes in detail of St.Thomas visit stories.
8. Tamilnadu’ Traditions as Spread by Church.
9. Archeological findings of few crosses in Chennai and Kerala
10. Archeological findings of few Items in the present Church at Sea Shore of Chennai-Mylapur being called Santhom.
11. King Gondapherous coins findings
12. Tamil Ancient Literature-Post Sangam ones have Christian Influence as claimed by Christian Apologists.
13. Tirukural-as per Arch Bishop Arulappa of Santhom Catholic Basilica, who funded Millions of Rupees in making of “Original Manuscripts” , and his 100% funding Chennai University to have Tamil Christian Research Foundation and getting His 100% funded One Deivanayagam a PhD on Interpretation of Tirukural, and Later Arulappa himself writing a new Commentary for Tirukural as a Bible Oriented Book.
14. The Christian sects of Bardaisans, Nestorians and a Buddhist-Zoroastrian Influenced Manichaeism.
15. Speeches of Various Political Leaders in Christian Functions.


Every Above Claims have been made over Last 200 Odd Years and repeated over every available rooftops and Media and using the Unity as a Political Tool Stamps etc., has been issued claiming St.Thomas visits.
Against Hundreds of Books spreading and claiming newer an newer Evidences for the Alleged visit of St.Thomas, quiet a few Christian Authors with Sincere Historical view have analysed most of the above claims and found that “Alleged visit of St.Thomas- is purely Fable” and no Historic basis of any resort behind this Fable.

We shall Analyse all above: ACTA THOMAE:

Story of this Book:
Twelve Apostles divided up the world for their missionary labors by draw of lots, India fell to Thomas. Thomas the Twin Brother of Jesus said he was not healthy enough and that a Hebrew could not teach Indians; even an alleged vision of Jesus could not change his mind.

Jesus then appeared to the Indian merchant Habban and became Slave Trader, sold Thomas to Habban for 30 Silvers as a slave for his master-King Gundaphorus, who ruled over part of India. When Thomas discovered and went with Habban as Slave.

They Landed at Ship at Port- Andrapolis, went to a wedding, and a Thomas met a Jewish maid, who loved him, Thomas rejected her and in Secret told the newly wed couple to Avoid Sexual Relationship, which is against Jesus’ Teachings, when the Royal Parents came to knew this, they tried to arrest Thomas, and Habban and Thomas left ot King Gundaphorus’ Land. King gave huge Money to Thomas for building a Huge Palace for the King.

Thomas did not construct any building, and he used the silver given to him by the king for Conversion Purposes by giving to poor for Conversion.

When the king returned, he imprisoned him, intending to flay him alive. At that point, the king's brother Gad died, and in Heaven when the Dead brother was shown the palace Thomas' good works had prepared for the king, Dead Gad was allowed to return to earth and offer to buy the spot from the king for himself. The king refused, released Thomas, and was converted by him.

Thomas after carrying out Conversion work in that country, went to neighbouring Desert Country ruled by King Misdaeus, when King Misdaeus was away, Thomas Converted, King’s wife, the Queen and young Prince. King felt Thomas-a Conjurer, arrested Thomas and On hearing was sentenced to death for Sorcery. Misdaeus’s Soldiers took him to a Hill and Carried sentence for Sorcery by Piercing. When One of the relatives of King Misdaeus was sick, on suggestion went to the Tomb of Thomas, but it was Empty, as the Dead Body was moved away, which later was moved to Mesopotamia.

What Chruch says about ACTA THOMAE?- in St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia, ed. George Menachery in which Article “The Acts of Thomas” by Rev.Anthony Poathoor.

- “The Acts of Thomas in its present form contains many Doctrinal Errors. Some Historians conclude that – “The Acts of Thomas” is the work of an unknown heretic who made use of the Authority to support his own Theological Opinions. Some Other Authors have suggested that the present work is the corrupted form of an older Orthodox version. In the view of former… We can hardly call the text interpolated, because the additions increase nearly Ten-fold to the Original Text. …. there is no doubt that the present Acts of Thomas is unacceptable from the Doctrinal point of View. Page- 24

-This is actually the same practice of Old and New Testament Bible Books. Pentateuch- or First Five books of Old Testament also called Moses’ Laws- as per Biblical Research is dated to 400-250CE, but put on the Mouth of Moses a Legendary Person to have lived in 1200BCE.

None of the Four Canonical Gospel or any of the 27 New Testament books were written by any of the Eye witnesses or Disciples OF Historical Jesus, but church added the names given to make use of the Authority of Dead Apostle and Jesus.

Now a book which was rejected in end of 4th Century/early 5th Cen when New Testament Canon was formed, and whose Doctrinal position is totally rejected is claimed by Those who spread Thomas Visit Stories as a Prime Source. Now this Acta Thomae tells of Kings Misdaeus & Gundaphorus.

Now in the name of Tamilnadu and Kerala Traditions which Church created- Kings Mahadevan or MachchaDevan and Kandappa Raja where the Kings with whom Thomas interacted.

But then Coins of a King in North-West of India A King Gondophorus was found in 19th Cen. Middle and Gondophorus could reigned around late 1st Centruy BCE-early 1st Cent.CE.

Our Thomas Story Builders who earlier said Thomas visiting by ship to Keralite Kandappa Raja and Coramandel (Chennai) king Mahadevan, now jumped saying first Thomas visited Gondophorus’ Kingdom (Now in Afghanistan) and later came to Kerala.

But does the name of King Gondophorus make the Acta- Historical? What is the Opinion of Roman Church?

Holy see’s Publisher “Burn Oares & Wash Boune Ltd’ has Published Multi Volume –“Butler’s Lives of Saints” Edited by Rev.Alban Butler (with Nihil Obstat & Imprimatur from Two Archbishop for its Doctrinal Acceptance) says-

“.. the Syrian Greek who was probably the fabricator of the Story would have been able to learn from Traders and Travelers such details as the name Gondophorus with Tropical details.. Pages 213-218, in Volume December.

The Authors have gone through all the major works of the claims of St.Thomas Indian visit claims and one of the highly acclaimed work of “The Early Spread of Christianity in India” – Alfred Mingana connected this with Apostle Thomas visit claims and clearly affirms-
. “ It is likely enough that the Malabar Coast was evangelized from Edessa at a later date, and . that in the course of time a confused tradition.”
“It is likely enough that the Malabar Coast was Evangelized from Edessa at a Later date, and in the course of time a confused tradition connected this with Apostle Thomas himself.”

Holy See’s publisher says that Indian Christianity has mostly the Origins from Edessa, which is in present Turkey- But did Edessa was the area where Thomas Worked?- let us see, how a detailed study by a Secular Historian says-

“Edessa-the modern Urfa in North West Mesopotamia is a city with an immensely long history going back to the Babylonian & Assyrian age. About 132BC it has became a seat of local dynasty, one of whose king raised the pillar. CHRISTIANITY Was Introduced in the Jewish Colony in the 2nd Century CE, and the church developed a national spirit using the Syriac Language and becoming the First Seat of Christianity in the Syriac speaking Community.”- Page-2176, World History; Editor J.A.Hanmeston.

Former English Professor of St.Joseoph College, Trichy, Dr.Joseph Kolangodan wrote a book “The History of Apostle Thomas” and it has the total appraisal from a fellow Christian, Professor John Ochanthurthi, Dept. of History, Calicut University saying-
“As the Well known Orientalist and Syrian Scholar George Every in his book “Christian Myths”(New York; Page-92)- India of this Legend (Acta THomae) is certainly not Malabar and may not be in the Indian Peninsula”

CHURCHES very clearly know the above Research truths with its vast Experience of “ a lie repeated becomes Legendry History as that of New Testament Hero- Jesus”.

What does Church know about Thomas. Let us get from a Christian Scholar-

“ The VERY NAME of the Apostle who is known as Thomas remains obscure. Thomas is the Greek form of the Aramaic Teoma whose Greek Translation is Didymas, meaning “Twin”, most probably his original name was Judas, and the Parentheses and the versional variants could have been Scribal clarification. How could an Apostle be known by an epithet or an adjective such as “TWIN” - “Person And Faith of Apostle Thomas in the Gospels”- Dr.George Kaniarakath,CMI

What is the Opinion about Acts of Thomas, in Catholic Church- Acta Thomae was composed in the Ist half of the 3rd Century AD in Gnostic Manichean circle with Encrastic tendencies. Page-411, Vol-3, New Catholic Encyclopedia &

Holy see’s Publisher “Butler’s Lives of Saints” Edited by Rev.Alban Butler with Nihil Obstat & Imprimatur from Two Archbishop and it says-

It is now commonly agreed that there is no Truth behind the extravagant but interesting story as just outlined.

I also refer to<b> “Church History of Travancore” by C.M.Agur, (</b>released by the Church in commemoration of Centenary Celebrations of the Church in 1903) reprint 1990, refers to the Merchant Thomas of Cana who came in 745 AD and clearly affirms-

“ Long after his Death the people Canonised him and the Subsequent Generation confused St.Thomas the Armenian Merchant with St.Thomas the Apostle, who never came to Malabar. This Confusion becomes more potent when we look in to the names of the Churches said to have been founded by the Merchant Thomas are Identical with the names of the Churches attributed to St.Thomas. Page-12

Christian Churches say that Thomas founded seven churches are at Kodungallur, Palayur, Paravoor, Kokkamangalam, Niranam, Chayal and Kollam.

Also we saw that Church claims that Thomas landed at Cranganore- a corrupted version of modern Kodungallur, and most of the other Six are all on Western Keralite Coast. Let Us what is the Truth of Archaeological Truth. The Church Apologists also say is the Cranganore as the Musiri the famous Port referred in Sangam Literature Former Professor of Chennai University Head of the Department of Archeaology Professor-Dr.K.V.Raman in Tamil says

கொடுங்கல்லூர் நகருக்குத் தெற்கில் பல இடங்களில், வடக்கில் பழமையானவை என்று கருத்ப்ப்ட்ட சில இடங்களிலும் அகழ்வாய்வுகள் மேற்கொள்ளப்பட்டது....
கேரளாவில் நடைபெற்ற இந்த அகழ்வாய்வுகளை நடுநிலை நின்று பார்த்தால் கீழ்கண்ட, தற்காலிகமான முடிவிற்கு வரலாம்.

கொடுங்கல்லூருக்கு உள்ளும் புறமுமாக, பல முக்கிய இடங்களிலும் நடத்தப்பட்ட அகழ்வாய்வுஅள் எல்லாவற்றிலும் கிடைத்த மிகப் பழைமையான படிவுகள் கி.பி.8 அல்லது 9-ஆம் நூற்றாண்டைச் செர்ந்த்ததாகத்தான் உள்ளன. ஆக, ஓரே சீரான பண்பாட்டுக் கூறுகள் எல்லா இடங்களிலும் வெளிப்பட்டுள்ளன என்பது தெளிவாகிறது.
கொடுங்கல்லூர் பகுதியில், மனித சமுதாயத்தில் முதல் குடியிருப்புகள் 8,9-ஆம் நூற்றாண்டுகளில் தான் ஏற்பட்டிருக்க வேண்டும். குலசேகர மரபினர், கண்ணனூர்ப் பகுதியில் குடியேறி, அதைத் தங்களுடைய தலைநகராக கொண்ட பொழுது இந்தப் பகுதி முழுவதும் முக்கியத்துவம் பெற்றிருக்க வேண்டும். குலசேகர மரபினர்களைப் பற்றிய நல்ல காலக் கணிப்புகள் நமக்குக் கிடைத்திருக்கின்றன. ஆனால் அதற்கு முற்பட்ட காலத்தைச் சேர்ந்த எந்த விதமான ஆதாரமும் கிடைக்கவில்லை.. ..

திருவஞ்சிக்களம் இங்கே ந்டந்த அகழ்வாய்வு கலவையான(M) பல ஆதாரங்களை வெளிப்படுத்தியது. அவை மிகவும் பழைமையானவை10 அல்லது 9ம் நுற்றாண்டுக்கு முற்பட்டதாக இல்லை.

திருவஞ்சிக்களம், கருப்பதானா அல்லது மதிலகம் போன்றவற்றின் பெயர்களை மட்டும் கொண்டு, அவைகள் பழைய வஞ்சியாகவோ கருராகவோ இருக்கலாம் என்று கருதப்பட்டது. ஆனால் இங்கு நடந்த அகழ்வாய்வுகள் கி.பி 8-ஆம் நூற்றாண்டைச் சேர்ந்த இரண்டாம் சேரப் பேரரசுக் காலத்து ஆதாரங்களைத் தான் வெளிப்படுத்தி உள்ளனவே அல்லாமல் பழங்காலச் சேரர்களை பற்றிய எந்தவிதமமன ஆதாரத்தையும் வில்லை. ஆகவே, இந்த இடங்களில் தான், பழைய வங்சியோ, கருரோ இருந்தது என்று சொல்ல முடிய வெளிப்படுத்தவில்லை.

பழைய முசிறித் துறைமுகம் இருந்த இடத்தைக் கண்டுபிடிக்க வேண்டிய அவசியம் ஏற்பட்டிருக்கின்றது. அது நிச்சயமாக கொடுங்கல்லூராக இருக்க முடியாது. பக்-68-70 கே.வி..ராமன், தொல்லியல் ஆய்வுகள் and this article was earlier published in Araichi, 170, under the Heading “Archaeological Investigations in Kerala”

I summarise it in English, Professor refers to the Archaeological research work done under Mr.Anu John Achhan and after analyzing all the findings says First Occupation of Humankind in Kodungallore Belt and surroundings happened in 8 or 9th Century AD, as Virgin Soil without Any Human Occupation came then, all researches in the surrounding areas took us to the Second Chera period of and certainly Kodungallore is not the Musiri the famous Port referred in Sangam Literature.

Does the Apostle Thomas in India Fables spreading Churches aware that Coastal Kerala was below Sea till 7th or 8th Century CE.

Let us see from History of Christianity in India, Vol. I, by Fr. A. Mathias Mundadan, Professor of Church History and Theology at the Dharmaram Pontifical Institute, Bangalore, in says
“Opinion seems to be Unanimously insupporting the Hypothesis that the whole or Greater part of the western section of the Kerala coast was once under waters and that the formation of the Land was due to some process of nature either gradual or Sudden.” Page-12

Incidentally Kodungallore Church are also called MALANKARA. What Does MALANKARA Mean? The Tamil word correct form is Mal-Iyan Karai, which became Maliankara or Malankara. The Land formed By God Vishnu(Mal) and God Siva(Iyan).

Now I refer again Dr.Joseph Kolangodan wrote a book “The History of Apostle Thomas” and it has the total appraisal from a fellow Christian, Professor John Ochanthurthi, Dept. of History, Calicut University

“As for as I could see from all the Shreds of Quotations presented by Prof. Kolangadan in this Volume, the antiquity of St.Thomas Tradition in South India cannot go beyond 13th Century. So for as direct and explicit support in favour of the St.Thomas Tradition in South India is concerned, I have No Doubt that the answer must be, None. Neither the Church Fathers nor the Apocrypal Acts say anything explicityly about Malabar.” Page 79

I quote from Rev.George Menachery Edited St. Thomas Christians Encyclopedia”,Vol-2, Article DID St.Thomas Really Come to INDIA- From a Doubter’s point of View by
Rev H.COMES. It explains-

“Heracleon- (II Century) is the earliest author to throw a light on St.Thomas’s carrier; his grandparents might have known the Apostle. Now, discussing the problem of witness and blood martyrdom, he states in a casual way, as something well known, that Matthew, Philip, Thomas, and Levi(Thaddaues) had not met violent deaths. And Clement of Alexandria (150-211/16 A.D.) who quotes this Passage of Heracleon and corrects some of his ideas, does not challenge this facts.”


It explains and analyses further in detail all other points and finally concludes as-
" For all these reasons it is our honest opinion, and thus we conclude, that Christianity was brought to India, not by St.Thomas, but by merchants, refugees and missionaries from Persia; that in this movement of Christianity towards India, Rewardshir, which was not only a great church, but also a great port, played an important part; that the St.Thomas Tradition itself may have been brought to Socotra to Konkan -Gujarat and to South India by these early settlers and missionaries from Persia; but that its ultimate origin may have been some of the regions near Palestine Christianized in the First Century." Page-24

Linguistics Help much, Brahmins and Vedas have been regarded with Highest Hanour in Thol Kappiyam, Sangam Literature, Tirukural, Silapathigaram and Manimekalai which covers a period from BCE300 to 300 CE. Vedas are not written for long because it does not follow Panini’s Grammar, but has to get the right interpretation, hence we use Sanskrit-“SRUTHI” Means “Heard”- where as we have many names in above Tamil Literature such as “Marai, (மறை, எழுதா கற்பு, ஓத்தும் அறம், ஆர்ங்கம் நான்மறை)Ezutha kaRpu, Aram, Aarangam etc., Sanskrit words have been mixed in All the Above Literature. We do not have a Single Hebrew, Greek, Latin word which confirms the absence of anu major presence of this people here.
We saw, from Highest Authorities of Roman Churches, that
1. Acts of Thomas is totally unreliable an unacceptable book, with absolutely Un-Historical Fables, totally rejected.
2. Even this Fable Acta Thomae- and the Geography it says are not in Indian Peninsula itself.
3. As for as South Indian Traditions we know there was nothing, as confirmed by Calicut University Professor of History.
4. Kodungallore and most of the places are below Sea till 7th/8th Century of Common Era(CE), which has been very clearly proven by Archaeological Researches.
5. The Indian Christianity came from Syrian Edessa even that has no Thomas Back Ground as per Historical Truths.
6. Church has absolutely no Knowledge about any of the 12 Apostles or even the founder of Christianity Paul. Even though Church does not know the real name of any Back ground about Thomas, But very clear earliest recordings say that Thomas did not suffer from any Opposition and died a Normal death mostly in Judea itself.
Why Church is spreading this Fables – I quote a Church Scholar’s WORK which tells Truth openly-
“Psychologically such a Perception is important , in that it helps to attach the involved population to a long tradition which in turn insets them with Dignity and Pride. Sociologically such a cognition defines Indian Christianity as Pre-Colonial phenomenon which is of Tremendous Existential Consequence.” - Page-40, The Christian Clergy in India, Vol.-I, T.K.Comen & Hunter.P.Malony, Sage Publications
Though most of these materials are familiar to Scholars and Specialist in the Fields, it is never made available to the Wider Public.
Luke16:10, Jesus of Galilee, the Orthodox and Patriotic Jew of New Testament Gospels against the Heathen Roman rule-says,

if one is honest in little matters, he is trustable in other matters, and if one is dishonest in little matters he cannot be trusted in anything.

No Gospel Author has been Honest and so the Church. We have seen mainly about The Acta Thomae, but in my subsequent Chapters let us see in detail the way these Church has been Fraudulently spreading these Thomas Indian visit Fables and the Blatant Lies used and spread, on each of the above headings given as Proofs seen in First, with Authority of Highest Order from Christian Church and also Secular.

DEVAPRIA SOLOMON

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-05-2007

Thanks Solomonji! Lot of great information.

Do you have more information about:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Kerala’s Malayalam Song – Ramban Pattu which describes in detail of St.Thomas visit stories.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I heard about these. Also what is 'Khandisa' (made popular by Indian Ocean communist rock band), and is that somehow related to this too?

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-05-2007

Friends,

Ramban Pattu, is credited to have been written in 17th Cen, updating the Old Traditional family son held for Centuries.

This Song tells that Thomas visit all dated in Malayalam Era i.e., which was created only in 9 the Cen. CE.

This song says in detail about how many Indian as per Varnas have been converted, and the Sorcery list of Thomas would be much higher than total New Testament put together.

Thomas was killed by Kali Temple Priests, as Thomas objected a Procession of Godess Kali and by his Sorcery made the idol vanish.

Ramban Pattu has Thomas Annointing of Bishops in the Catholic Tradition.

In History of Christianity in India, Vol. I, by Fr. A. Mathias Mundadan, Professor of Church History and Theology at the Dharmaram Pontifical Institute, Bangalore, clearly accepts that Ramaban pattu is infleuenced by Acta and Portugese. Mundaden also agrees too many details in this song has made it unbelievable and I Shall give in detail in my next post verbatim and details.
Devapriya Solomon

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-12-2007

Dear Friends,

I am giving details on Keralite Tradition.

RAMBAN PATTU TRADITIONS

This is from History of Christianity in India, Vol. I, (p.30-32). by <b>Fr. A. Mathias Mundadan, Professor of Church History and Theology at the Dharmaram Pontifical Institute, Bangalore
</b>
//“Thomas coming from Arabia Landed at Maliankara in AD50, in Danur Month. After a short stay there he Proceeded to Mailapuram and from there went to China, Coming back to Mailapuram Port, he sailed to Maliankara, being invited by the King of Thiruvacnchikalam(Modern Kodungaiyur) and founded several Churches there in Cran(where he arrived in 51) Baptisised th King, 3000 Pagans, and 40 Jews in Kollam, Chayal, Niranam(to which place the cross was transferred from the infidel village of tirupleshwaram, kokamangalam, kottakayal(Parur) and Palayur.

In AD.59, Kanni Month he was called back to Mailapuram by the king of Choran and imprisoned for Palace Money Cheating. The kings brother died and saw Palace in Heaven, came back alive and tries to buy it, king and 700 converted. Stayed there for 2.5 Years. Then the Apostle returns to Malabar, via Malayattur and visited the Old places: Cranganore, Kottakayal,... staying in each place for a year and conferring on the faithful the sacrament of confirmation. In Chayal the Apostle took leave of the Christians, telling them that they would not see him again. In 69, he departed there lands to the Lands of TAMILS. Lots of Miracles, brings 19 Dead to Life, Cured 220 Paralytic, make 200 Dumb to speak and 250 hopelessly diseased to be cured. In all converted 17,550 persons, of whom 6,850 Persons, 2,300 Kshatriyas, 3,750 Vaisyas and 4,250 Sudras. During the visit in Malabar, the Apostle made sure Ordaining Priests and Consecrated Bishops.
Back in Mylapur AD72, Karkadaga Month 3rd, Apostle on the way to Little Mount, some Devotees of Kali going to Goddess Kali Temple for a Sacrifice, they wanted Thomas to take part in their worship, however with the sign of cross, Thomas Destroyed the Temple and the Devotees in their Fury pierced Thomas with a Lance. With a Prayer in his Lips Thomas gave up his Spirit on a rock in the forest near the shore of the Sea and his Soul flew up to the Heaven in the form of white dove accompanied by Angels in a vision he Promised his help to all those who prayed in the Tomb.”//

Personally having read many many books on Thomas fables, none of the books gives a full contents and I am not able to go beyond this this, however I have been downloading left-right and center from Various Websites with Google searches over last 4-5 years, including from Hamsa.org, etc., amounting 100MB of contents and I Give here almost a complete portion from one such download- though I am sure it has lot of additions over this Ramban Pattu.

//The Songs of Thomas Which is handed down through generations and written down in 1601- By tradition these songs were written by Thomas Rambaan the first Brahmin convert to Christianity
The first of the Apostles visit lasted for eight days. During this short stay the Apostle had made several conversions. He then proceded to Taxila and later traveled all through the land of India and China.
The song tells that Prince Peter or Kepha of Muziris (actually means Egyptians. This word is even today is used to denote foreigners from Middle East) who was one of the Apostle's first converts visited St. Thomas in the Pandya Kingdom (Andhra Pradesh) and requested him to return to Malabar. Apostle came back to Coromandal coast. The request was granted and the Apostle accompanied Prince Kepha to Kerala, where headed by the other members of the Cranganore royal family three thousand non-Christians received the faith and were baptized in the course of eighteen months. Among these converts there were forty members of the Jewish community including Rabbi Paul of the Cranganore Synagogue where every Saturday the Apostle used to go and read and explain the Old Testament for the Jewish congregation. Though Rabbi Paul received baptism and became a Christian, a good number of the Cranganore Jewish community continued to stick fast to their ancestral religion and gave the Christians the name "Nazaranis ", meaning followers of the man from Nazareth i.e.; Jesus Christ.

Kidangallor Evangelization

Besides Jews, Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Nairs, and Chettiars were among the earliest converts to Christianity. The first Brahmin convert was a young member of a Niranom Brahmin family that had settled down in Cranganore engaged in some business. The young man's conversion was not liked by his father, who decided to cast him away from the family. The Apostle called the young convert and asked him to live with him. The young man, who had received the Apostle's name in baptism agreed to live with him and came to be known as Thomas Maliyakal, in recognition of his Brahmin family name. Subsequently he was raised to priest hood, and after sometime was given the title of Ramban or Arch-priest. In course of time a Jewish Synagogue as well as a Hindu temple at Cranganore were transformed into Christian churches. Accompanied by Prince Kepha, who was consecrated as the Bishop of Cranganore and Malabar, St. Thomas left Cranganore to preach the Gospel elsewhere.

Kollam Evangelization

Quilon was the next scene of the labors of the Apostle. The majority of the people of Quilon belonged to the Chettiar caste, the recognized trading caste of the time. A good many of them accepted the Gospel attracted by the preaching of the Apostle and the miracles performed by him. Many inhabitants of Quilon hated the new religion and migrated from Quilon to Nanjinad to keep themselves away from the influence of the new religion; After erecting a cross for the worship of the converts who numbered about one thousand and four hundred, the Apostle left Quilon.

Nironam Evangelization

The Apostle and Prince Kepha proceeded from Quilon in a northeasterly direction and arrived at Thrikapaleswaram, near Niranom. Thrikapaleswaram had Hindu temples at that time, and to provide a place of public worship to the Christian community, the Apostle planted a cross a few furlongs away to the west of one of the temples. The non-Christian people in the locality did not like this and they pulled it out and cast it into the nearby river.
This desecration took place sometime after the Apostle had left the place for Chayal or Nileckal. Two Christians from Thrikapaleswaram went there and requested the Apostle to re-visit their place and set matters right. The cross that had been thrown out into the river moved downwards floating on the waters for some distance, and eventually rested on a strip of land on the opposite bank of the river. Here at Niranom a new site for a church was secured. During this second visit, the Apostle stayed at Niranom for two months and during this period two hundred persons were baptized by him giving new vigor and strength to the Christian community. Local tradition is that most of the Nambutiris having been made Christians by St. Thomas, left the place after giving the boxes containing the documents relating to their landed properties to a Kymal or Nair chieftain, who has since been known as Niranam Petti Kaymal. Of the various miracles performed by St. Thomas at Niranam, the most remarkable was the restoration of life to a child of a barber put to death by anti-Christian families, who wanted to throw the responsibility for the crime on the Apostle.

Nileckal Evangelization

The Apostle returned from Niranom to Chayal or Nileckal. According to the Ramban song the Apostle worked here for one year and during this period one thousand and one hundred persons were converted to Christianity.

Kokkamangalam Evangelization

Kokkamangalam, far to the north of Quilon, Niranom and Nileckal, was the next centre of the missionary activities of St. Thomas. The Ramban song says that the Apostle spent one year at Kokka-mangalam and baptized one thousand and six hundred persons to Christianity. After planting a cross and opening a church there the Apostle left the place. During the absence of the Apostle unknown hands removed the cross from its site and threw it into the nearby backwater lagoon. The cross moved with the water current and reached Pallipuram. The believers at Pallipuram installed the cross solemnly at a suitable place and a church was opened there.

Kottakuvu Evangelization

Kottakuvu near Parur was the next centre where the Apostle preached the Gospel and founded a church. According to the Ramban song the Apostle succeeded in receiving into the Christian fold one thousand seven hundred and seventy persons at this center.

Palayur Evangelization

From Kottakavu the Apostle proceeded to Palayur, one of the strongest Brahmin centers in Kerala. A prosperous Brahmin community was living there from ancient times. The place where the Jewish community had their residence at Palayur is still called Jewish hill. Orthodox Brahmins of those days used to perform every dayy five Yajnas. Punja-yajnas, and one of these was the "pilhrte yajna" and it consisted of offering libations of water to the spirits of their deceased ancestors. While some of the Brahmins were engaged in performing their Pithru-yajna by throwing up hand-fuls of water, in. a tank near one of the Palayur temples the Apostle saw this and enquired about the significance of this action. Since the explanation given did not satisfy him, the Apostle said: "lf your performance is acceptable to the gods, they can manage that the drops of' water remain suspended in the air, instead of falling down." The Brahmins retorted that such a tiling was impossible being against the laws of nature. The Apostle then assured them that God. the One, True, Almighty God, would have the handfuls of water suspended in the air, and also allow a cavity to be seen on the surface of the water indicating the spot from where the water had been taken, if only they believed in the true God and accepted the new faith, preached by him. The Brahmins present there expressed their readiness to accept the new faith on the condition stated by the Apostle. Then the Apostle prayerfully cast a handful of water high up in the air from the tank. The water stood still in the air after reaching a certain height. Subsequently, at the bidding of the Apostle it fell down at his feel in the shape of flowers. The majority of the Brahmins present there now became followers of the Apostle. He taught them the new faith and baptized them. Those who refused to accept the new faith left the village having cursed it, and since then it has come to be called Chowghat. The cursed forest, where a Brahmin can neither take food or drink.
Quoted from "A History of Christianity in Kerala" by Dr. C.V.Cherian//- This ends that website Article.

Any body who has little followed the “Church spread Thomas In India-Fables“, the Churches have been proudly claiming that they have many Ancient Crosses installed by St.Thomas. I saw One such cross is in Chennai Alandur, Parangi malai or Thomaiyar Malai (St.Thomas Mount) the new name, Church, it has inscriptions in Pahlavi Language dated to 9th Century CE. Two such in Kerala are i) Cross on the right-side altar in Valiyapalli church, Kottayam, Kerala; ii) Cross in the Jacobite Church, Kadamattam, Kerala.

For the benefit of Friends, Cross or Crucifix are regular part of Church, only from 6-7th Centuries. Its Origen is from Constantine who as per legends wrote “Christian” on his Tents and bed-sheets after been blessed in a dream and that gave Success. The first letters in Greek were “xr”- called Chi-Roe which over time got combined to form Crucifix.

I Quote here for this-
“T<b>he use of the Crucifix was not general before the 6th Century and the representation of our Lord suffering or dead is yet more recent; it began about 13th Cen, and only became general with the Spanish influence of the Counter Reformation</b>.” Page-131; The Catholic Encyclopedic Dictionary.

MORE ON ANCIENT CROSSES.-All these Crosses are different from the Normal Christian Crosses – They have a Dove in top of an equal cross(more a Plus). This belongs to more the Manichaean sect and not Christian.

<b>Manichaean sect- founder Manes or Mani, 216-276AD, </b>claimed to be the promised "Comforter" that Yeshu (Jesus) –<b>i.e., Paraclete,</b> prophesied would come after Him. (He was also considered the Buddhist Maitreya.) He is said to have Divine revelations and as the S<b>ealing and the Last Prophet in the order of Zoroaster, Moses-Jesus and Buddha</b>. The Dove Represents MarMani.

Manichaean sect Found in Arabia, was prosecuted by both Romans and later Islam. They ran with their Treasures and came to India and China, in around 9th/10th Centuries.

Keralaite Churches Claimed Kodungallur as the earlier Muzuri of Sangam Period, and in each of the above 7 ½ Churches or close by places have Fables called Traditions of incidents with Apostle Thomas- one or two was in the article I said earlier.

Next is Thomas Forming or building Churches- Nowhere in any part of World does any building has been separately been used as Church till about 225 CE or so; till then Christianity was small sects and their assemblies were in one of the members houses. If Paul or Peter did not build Churches- why Thomas should do it below the Sea?

HOW RELIABLE IS RAMBAN SONG Or Other Keralite Traditions?
<b>Rev.A.M.Mundaden says-</b>
<b>“Indian Tradition is clearly influenced by the accounts of the Acts of Thomas and also by the East Syrian Tradition.. Some of the elements of the Sacraments pf Confirmation may be regarded as details, which have crept in to the Account from the Portuguese Sources P.32
The so called details available are mostly the fruit of fertile imaginations, generously employed to fill the gaps and provide facile interpretation. P-3
</b>

The Church Story Spreaders have been very clever when they refer Thomas fables they always say “TRADITION”- AND What does Tradition means - Rev.A.M.Mundaden says-

“.. whole story which lies shrouded in Legends, fables, fictions and confusing details. Quiet often One has no other option but tto fall back on what is claimed as tradion. No wonder then that Speculations,Surmises and Presumptions have characterized many studies of the period. To avoid filling into such pitfalls… out of a large basket of all sorts of materials all claiming to be Tradtion-facts: Legends, Myths, wishful thinking, telescoping of events easy hormonisation etc., P-2

Ramban Song as per Church claims was composed in 17th Century. But one of the Nasrani Thomas Christian website says that Linguistically it can be dated to 19th Century.

(In my previous posting I showed Kodungallur was not Muzuri,and these areas were Human Occupied in 8th Century CE; I read articles that little inside from Kodungallur-a place called Pattanam ( Pattanam, a sleepy town in Ernakulam district; separated from the Thrissur District and Cranganore by a section of River Periyar Pattanam, near North Paravur, on the opposite side of Kodungallur) many Archaelogical evidences to be the Sangam Town. YOU CAN EXPECT CHURCHES WOULD CHANGE FABLES TOWARDS THIS SITE AREA AND PROOFS FROM ANCIENT WOULD FOLLOW FOR THIS PLACE.)

Death date as per Roman Traditions put for Thomas as December-21, and Syrian Traditions to July-3.

Ramaban Pattu as given earlier “Karkadaga Month 3rd” would put a date of around 17th or 18th of June or July (Vishu year and first month starts on 14/15th April), people familiar with Malayalam months can confirm. Malayalam Kollam Era Pechanga was used for dating. This Kollam Era itself starts from 9th Century only.
(But on the look of it July-3 of Syrian was just changed and written as Karkadaga Month 3rd , by people with No Panchanga Idea, when world changed to Gregorian Calendar from Julian in 16th Century, removing 12 days, which is applied in this Fable- Friends can look on it.

<b>A Peculiar book written by Malayalam Author P.V.MATTHEW, in 1986 called “Acta Indica- </b>The Acts of St.Thomas in India” has lot of researches and his findings are worth discussing (though the Author has built altogether different Visit of Thomas to some other place In Kerala, and Bluffs so much which I would analyse in another post shortly). However what would be interesting from <b>foreword </b>to this book by Chevalier <b>K.C.Chacko, Retd. Vice Chancellor-Calicut & Cochin Universities </b> is This book’ Malayalam version-“The History of Christianity in theSpice Land” was Hailed by “<b>KERALA HISTORY Association” as the “BEST HISTORIC BOOK published in 1984).</b>
Erudite Mr. K.C.Chacko, a Christian himself says-“ But I have chosedn to look at history dispassionatey, without compromising my faith, which is not tied up with the History or Historicity of the St.Thomas Christians. Mr. K.C.Chacko has summarized some of the conclusions given by P.V.MATTHEW-hailed by KERALA HISTORY Association, mostly occupied by Church Scholars.

//1. …. Contention of the nonexistence of Coastal Belt including Cranganore where St.Thomas is supposed to have landed and established Churches in the neighbouring places at that time is note-worthy.
2. <b>The Firm assertion that St.Thomas was martyred in Calamina, which is not Mylapore, but is th Bahrain Island in Persian Gulf.</b>
3. The Advent of Nambudiris in Kerala from Kashmir is sometime in 8th or 9th Century A.D., and the story of conversion of Nambudiris to Christianity by St.Thomas has no credibility.
4. The Possibility of St.Thomas preaching in South American Continent between AD.48-68
12. The colonization of Knanites cannot be 345 AD; it must have been in 745 AD and originally they were Manicheans from Armenia, converted to Christianity in the 16th Century only.//

Friends,
I quote from my last post
//Holy see’s Publisher “Burn Oares & Wash Boune Ltd’ has Published Multi Volume –“Butler’s Lives of Saints” Edited by Rev.Alban Butler (with Nihil Obstat & Imprimatur from Two Archbishop for its Doctrinal Acceptance) says-

“.. the Syrian Greek who was probably the fabricator of the Story would have been able to learn from Traders and Travelers such details as the name Gondophorus with Tropical details.. Pages 213-218, in Volume December.

The Authors have gone through all the major works of the claims of St.Thomas Indian visit claims and one of the highly acclaimed work of “The Early Spread of Christianity in India” – Alfred Mingana connected this with Apostle Thomas visit claims and clearly affirms-
. “ It is likely enough that the Malabar Coast was evangelized from Edessa at a later date, and . that in the course of time a confused tradition connected this with Apostle Thomas himself.” //
And I explained that AT Edessa Christianity was introduced in 2nd Century only, a follow-up of that, this time little more Authentic from Catholic Encyclopedia from Online site-
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05282a.htm/

/<b>/The exact date of the introduction of Christianity into Edessa is not known. It is certain, however, that the Christian community was at first made up from the Jewish population of the city. According to an ancient legend, King Abgar V, Ushana, was converted by Addai, who was one of the seventy-two disciples. (For a full account see ABGAR.) In fact, however, the first King of Edessa to embrace the Christian Faith was Abgar IX (c. 206). Under him Christianity became the official religion of the kingdom. As for Addai, he was neither one of the seventy-two disciples as the legend asserts, nor was he the Apostle Thaddeus, as Eusebius says (Hist. Eccl., IV, xiii), but a missionary from Palestine who evangelized Mesopotamia about the middle of the second century, and became the first bishop of Edessa.//</b>

By the name of Kerala’ and of Coramandel Tradition – Gudnapar or Gundaphorus was fabricated as Kandappa Rajah and Mazdai as Mahadevan or Machcha Devan. Once Coins of a King in North-West of India A King Gondophorus was found in 19th Cen. Middle and Gondophorus could have mostly reigned around late 1st Centruy BCE-early 1st Cent.CE. Of Course there are difference in Opinion on his dating and Matching that with Acta Thomas.

Now we hardly find Kandappa Raja and MachchaDevan vanishing, same way we can see Pattanam giving way to Cranganore.

The Keralite Coast attracted Refugees from 4th Century, when RC religion was formed and those who failed to accept Roman Christianity were killed by Church’s sword. These small group was added by a little Larger consignment in 8th Century prominent for Thomas of Kana, who was the founder of the most of the 7and half churches, Manicheans or Nestorians mostly.

But the first Refugees were all Syrians who themselves has no Apostolic Connection as the Catholic Encyclopedia confirms. As per New Testament book “Acts of Apostles” mostly written by the Same author of who wrote ‘gospel according to Luke’ now dated to 2nd Century, Apostle all of them never left Jerusalem permanently. They had a meeting in around 48 with Paul on accepting Pagans without Circumcision. Again there was another meeting in the end, where in Paul was arrested, and in none of the hearings did Paul call one Single Witness who had seen the “so-called Resurrection OF Jesus Witness” but Paul used “Divide an Escape”- by Dividing the Jews as Pharisees and Sadducees, and Note None of the Apostles came forward to save Paul who were all there only.

On Ramban Pattu Tradition www.stmaryssharjah.com,
and article titled ST. THOMAS THE APOSTLE- Written by Mr. Mathen Manathala says-
<b>“This tradition has many contradictions and factual errors. First of all there were no Brahmins in the Malabar Coast until the eight century. Secondly, the places where he is supposed to have founded churches were non existent as those parts of the western coast were still under the Arabian Sea. Thirdly, ordination of Kassesos and “Rambans” was not practiced in Christianity until the first quarter of the second century any where in the world. The only written evidence to this Malabar tradition is found in the “Ramban Pattu” supposed to be written in early 17th century, but the language used denotes a much later time, sometime in the 19th century.”</b>

Marcopolo’ hearsay says that the Saint in the Temple was killed accidentally when a lower caste man sent an Arrow from Bow for Hitting Peacock, hit Him, Looks like the story that of Lord. Krishna’ killing story and I am trying to givemore information on that also.

Jesus of Galilee clearly told his Disciples, “ Do not take to the lands of Samaritans, go only to Jews” in Matthew 10.

Our Churdh Fable Makers then make a story of Jews in India before 1st Century CE, let us see what is the Truth in coming posts.

The Archaelogical findings at Mylapur include a proof for Sivan Temple and Muruga and much more in my next post.


I WANT TO finalise m books draft both in Tamil and English, I WOULD LIke suggestions by all friends, also if anyway I could meet mr.IshwarCharan- Guide me, I am in Chennai, now.

DEVAPRIA SOLOMON



Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-13-2007

<b>The Myth of Saint Thomas and the Mylapore Shiva Temple</b>

Solomon,
Thanks,

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-13-2007

Dear Mudy,

The book by Ishwar Charan has missed several points, few of which I have already explained, with Web Links as given.

I am more interested in bringing the book in Tamil, which is dominating the Indian Christian Fables, and an appropriate Malayalam Translation by any friends and Price the total book to less than Rs.50/- for total book and smaller on few Topics at Rs.10/-

I want to get guidances from Ishwar Charan also, Can anyone give his Mail address by PM.

Also you can correct me if I am wrong.

Devapria Solomon

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-13-2007

I don't have his email id but you can ask Rajeev Srinivasan [rajeev.srinivasan [AT]gmail.com]

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-25-2007

Land grab is not new for christianism in South India. Report of a land dispute between the Church and the converts in Tamil Nadu, 1881: The 'Dublin Review' by Nicholas Patrick Wiseman

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-25-2007

MYLAPUR SIVA TEMPLE AND Santhom Cathedral:

From the Book-
திருமயிலைத் திருத்தலம்- இலக்கிய, வரலாற்றுப் பார்வை,
பேராசிரியர். Dr.சு.ராஜசேகரன்.,1989,
Doctral Thesis done in 1986, on the Same name at Madras University, the Author was then working as Tamil Professor at Nandanam Govt. Arts College, Chennai.

The Author Analyses various Stone Inscriptions and Archeological findings from Kapalishwarar Temple and Santhome and gives his views.

இப்போதுள்ள கபாலிசுவரர் கோயில், நாயன்மார்களால் பாடப் பெற்ற பழைய கபாலிசுவரர் கோயில் என்ற பொதுவான நம்பிக்கை மக்களிடையே நிலவி வருகிறது. ஆனால், தொல்பொருள் ஆராய்ச்சியாளர்கள் சாந்தோமில் கண்டெடுத்த புதைபொருள்களிலிருந்து பழைய கோயில் வேறு இடத்தில் இருந்திருக்க வேண்டும் என்றும், பெரும்பாலும் சாந்தோம் கடற்கரையாக இருக்கலாம் என்றும் எண்ண வேண்டியிருக்கிறது.. .. பழைய கபாலிசுவரர் கோயிலலின் இடிபாடுகள் இப்போதுள்ள கோயிலுக்குச் சிறிது தொலைவில் கிழக்கு திசையில் சாந்தோம் கடற்கரையருகே கண்டு எடுக்கப்பட்டதே இதற்குக் காரணமாகும்.

1923இல் தொல்பொருள் ஆய்வுத் துறையினர் சாந்தோம் கதிட்ரலில் நிகழ்த்திய அகழ்வாராய்ச்சிகளால் கல்வெட்டுகளும், தூண்களும், சிலைகளும் கண்டெடுக்கப்பட்டன. கல்வெட்டுகள் சிவன் கோயிலைக் குறிக்கின்றன. கற்றூண்களிலும் கல்வெட்டுகள் காணப்பெறுகின்றன. மயிலோடு கூடிய முருகர் சிலையும் கண்டெடுக்கப்பட்டது. 1921இல் மறைத்திரு ஹோஸ்டன், சாந்தோம் கதிட்ரலில் கண்டெடுத்த வடமொழிக் கல்வெட்டு “கருவறை உட்பட எல்லாக் கட்டிடங்களும் மயிலாப்பூரிலுள்ள புகழ்பெற்ற சிவனுக்கும் பார்வதிக்கும் உரியவையாகும்” என்று குறிப்பிடுபகிறது. மற்றொரு தானக் கல்வெட்டில், “திருமயிலாப்பில் பூம்பாவை” என்று குறிப்பிடுப்படுவதாலும், பழைய கபாலிசுவரர் கோயில் கடற்கரையருகே இருந்திருக்க வேண்டும் என்பது புலனாகிறது.

அருணகிரிநாதர் திருப்புகளில் கபாலிசுவரர் கோயில் கடற்கரை அருகே இருந்தது என்று குறிப்பிடுப்படுவதால், பழைய கோயில் கடற்கரையருகே இருந்திருக்க வேண்டும் என்று கே.வி..இராமன் கருதிகிறார். பக்கம்287,288

இந்திய மக்கள் தொகைக் கணக்கெடுப்புத்துறை வெளியிட்ட சென்னை மாநிலக் கோயில்கள் (Temples of Madas State) என்னும் நூலில் காணப்படும் கருத்துக்கள் :
கி.பி. 16ஆம் நூற்றாண்டின் தொடக்கத்தில் சாந்தோம் கடற்கரையிலிருந்த கோயில் போர்த்துக்கீசியர்களால் அழிக்கப் பட்டிருக்க வேண்டும் என்று கூறுகிறது. இந்நூல் கூறும் புதிய செய்தி, இப்போத்ள்ள கபாலிசுவரர் கோயிலும் குளமும் முந்நூறு ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன், மயிலை நாட்டு முத்தையப்ப முதலியாராலும் அவருடைய வாரிசுகளிலாலும் கட்டப்பட்டது என்பதேயாகும். (பக்-289 – Quotes Census of India-1961; Temples of Madras State, 1 Chingleput District and Madras City, P.204)

The Present Temple very clearly shows for Schoalrs that it was constructed only in 17th Cen. CE, few Tamil Schloars maintained that the Old Temple was in same place, and the Present Temple was constructed above it. Another Set of Scholars maintained that the Older Temple was in Sea Shore(Mostly the Present Santhome Cathedral) and the Author analyses various books on Mylapur Temple and comes to the Conclusion as below, and he before concluding quotes the Historic fact-
போர்த்துக்கீசியர்கள் இந்துக் கோயில்களை அழித்த செய்தியைக் கேள்விப்பட்டு இராமராயர் கி.பி. 1558இல், சாந்தோம் மீது படை எடுத்துப் போர்த்துக்கீசியரைப் பணிய வைத்துப் பின்னர்ப் பழுதுபட்ட கோயில்களைப் பழுதுபார்க்க ஆணையில்ட்ட செய்தியாலும் பழைய கபாலிசுவரர் கோயில் போர்த்துக்கீசியர்களால் .(Quotes from S.Kalyanasundaram-A Short History of Mylapore page-8) அழிக்கப் பட்டது என்ற முடிவுக்கு வரலாம்.
ஆகவே, முடிபாக, பழைய கபாலிசுவரர் கோயில், கடற்கரையருகே இருந்ததென்பதையும், கி.பி. பதினைந்தாம் நூற்றாண்டின் இறுதியில் போர்த்துக்கீசியரால் அழிக்கப் பட்டதென்பதையும், கி.பி. பதினாறாம் நுற்றாண்டில் இப்போதுள்ள இடத்தில் புதிய கோயில், மயிலை நாட்டு நயினியப்ப முத்தையப்ப முதலியார் மகன் முதலியாரால் கட்டப் பெற்றது என்பதையும் தெற்றென உணரலாம். -பக்கம் 291 திருமயிலைத் திருத்தலம்- இலக்கிய, வரலாற்றுப் பார்வை, பேராசிரியர்.
Dr.சு.ராஜசேகரன்.,1989,
Doctral Thesis done in 1986, on the Same name at Madras University, the Author was then working as Tamil Professor at Nandanam Govt. Arts College, Chennai.

Dr. Deivanayagam’s work being analysed by Christian Tamil Scholars
திருக்குறளில் கிறித்தவம்-மெய்த்திரு (டாக்டர்) எஸ். இராச மாணிக்கம், S.J.
Rev. S.J.Rajamanikam was the H.O.D of Tamil Dept, and he was asked to present a Paper on –Presence of Christianity in ThiruKural, at Venkateshwara University – Thirupathi in Tamil; here Learned Scholar explains the ideals of Valluvar and how it varies with the important ideals of Christianity- and finally comes to Deivanayagam and I quote-
“ நிற்க. தற்போது ‘தெய்வநாயகம்’ என்ற புலவர் ‘திருவள்ளுவர் கிறித்தவர்’ என்று கூறி, கிறித்தவத்துக்கு முரணாகத் தென்படும் பல குறளுக்குப் புதிய விளக்கம் கூறி வருகிறார். மேலும், 1. ‘திருவள்ளுவர் கிறித்தவரா? 2. ஐந்தவித்தான் யார்? 3. வான் 4. நீத்தார் யார்? 5. சான்றோர் யார்? 6. எழு பிறப்பு 7. மூவர் யார்? 8. அருட்செல்வம் யாது? என்ற பல நூல்களை வெளியிட்டிருக்கிறார். அவற்றுள் சிலவற்றை ஊன்றிப் படித்தும், அவர் வலியுறுத்தும் கருத்தை நம்மால் ஒப்புக் கொள்ள முடியவில்லை. ‘திருவள்ளுவர் மறுபிறப்பை ஏற்கவில்லை’ என்றும், ‘ஐந்தவித்தான் என்பான் கிறித்து’ என்றும், ‘வான் என்பது பரிசுத்த ஆவி’ என்றும், நித்தார் என்பவர் கிறித்து பெடுமானார்’ என்றும், ‘சான்றோர் என்பது கிறித்தவர்களைச் சுட்டுகின்றது’ என்றும் பல சான்றுகளால் அவர் எடுத்துரைக்கின்றார்.

இக்கருத்துக்களோ, அவற்றை மெய்ப்பிக்க அவர் கையாளும் பலச் சான்றுகளோ, நமக்கு மனநிறைவு அளிக்கவில்லை. கிறித்துவ மதத்துக்குரிய தனிச்சிறப்பான கொள்கை ஒன்றும் திருக்குறளில் காணப்படவில்லை. கிறித்துபெருமானின், பெயர் கூட வரவில்லை. ஆனால் இந்திரன்(25), திருமால்(அடியளந்தான்-610;அறவாழி-8; தாமரைக் கண்ணான்-103), திருமகள் (செய்யவள்-167; செய்யாள்-84; தாமரையினாள்-617), மூதேவி(தவ்வை-167, மாமுகடி-617), அணங்கு(1081). பேய்(565), அலகை(850), கூற்று(375,765,1050,1083; கூற்றம்-269,1085), காமன் (1197), புத்தேள் (58,234,213,290,966,1322), இமையார்(906), தேவர்(1073), வானோர்(18, 346) முதலிய இந்து மதத் தெய்வங்கள் சுட்டப்படுகின்றன. பக்கம்-92-93- from திருக்குறள் கருத்தரங்கு மலர்-1974,(Thirukural Karuththarangu Malar-1974) Edited by Dr.N.Subbu Reddiyar.

And when Deivanayagam’s work was in Peak- M.Karunanithi who gave a foreword to the book கிறித்தவமாகிய மலையிலிருந்து எடுக்கப்பட்ட அறமாகிய கருங்கல், தமிழாகிய கங்கையில் நீராட்டப்பட்டு திருக்குறளாம் பேசும் சிற்பம் தோன்றியது.
தோமையரின் மூலம் பெற்ற நற்செய்தியாம் அறத்தை தன் அரசியல் பணியிலிருந்து பெற்ற அரசியலறிவாம் பொருளுடன், தன் இல்வாழ்வின் அடித்தளத்தில் விளங்கிய இன்பத்தோடு சேர்த்துத் தமிழ்ச் சூழலில் முப்பாலாக மொழிந்துள்ளார். திருவள்ளுவர் கிறித்தவரா? பக்௧-73
வள்ளுவர் காப்பியடித்தார் எனக் கூற எந்தத் தமிழனும் முன் வர மாட்டான். ஆனால் விறுப்பு, வெறுப்பின்றி ஆய்பவர்கள் தங்கள் ஆய்வின் முடிவில் வரும் கருத்துக்களை வெளியிடப் பின் வாங்கினால் அவர்கள் உண்மை ஆய்வாளார் அல்லர்.பக்௧31 same book.
After the Frist World Tamil Conference, Karunanithi in a meeting advised the Tamilnadu Universities to Research Kural and Madurai Kamaaraj University got Aram for its Kural PEETAM.

The Research of Religion of Kural was given to One Ms.Kamatchi Srinivasan-a Srilankan Origin, Tamil Saivaite by birth and Physically Challenged. She was converted to Christianity when she took treatment at Vellore CMC. Ms.Kamatchi Srinivasan was known for her Integrity, and Authored Four books on Kural and while She wrote “Kural and Bible” and she Researched the History behind Bible and she lost her Christian religion as per the introduction to the Author given, ( THE Book was published after death).

The Author verifies Sangam Lit, confirms various references to Vedas, and quotes extensively about the Tamilnadu and its religious system then with Vedas.

Finally looking at the Methods Adopted by M.Deivanayagam, the Learned Author says –from the works of Deivanayagam, it is doubtful whether Deivanayagam Understood Thirukural or for that Matter Deivanayagam’ Credential of Understanding of History of Christianity is doubtful. I QUOTE Kamatchi Sinivasan book called Kural Kurum Samayam-
“மு.தெய்வநாயகத்தின் நூல்களைப் படிக்கும்போது அவர் திருக்குறளைச் சரியாக புரிந்து கொண்டாரா என்பதனுடன் கிறிஸ்தவ சமய வரலாற்றையும் எவ்வளவு கற்றறிந்தார் என்ற ஐயமே ஏற்படுகிறது.

One of the famous Historians of Chennai in an Article in “The Hindu” spreading the Myth of St.Thomas Visit, write on start of the Article fears of Ishwar Charan looking at This False Myths and then says that no Harm in spreading these false Legends. He was a Paid Employee of Catholic Church earlier and Does he not know the Famous Frauds of Deivanayagam and ArchBishop. Arulappa
The Mount of Thomas Wednesday, Jan 07, 2004
S. MUTHIAH
Today, the church tells no stories of the Nestorians, Portuguese or Armenians. Instead, on one side is a convent, on another, a well-kept cemetery of the Franciscan nuns
SEVERAL YEARS ago, there was an American (?) turned Hindu ascetic who was never happy whenever I wrote of Thomas Dydimus, the Apostle of India. In fact, he wrote a book, I recall, devoting a considerable and angry part of it to my unhistorical approach to the legend of Thomas in particular. I don't know whether he's still around, but if he is, I wish he'd realise that articles of faith, like his own, are not disputable, calling, instead, for tolerance. And that a little unhistoric storytelling, like today's, does no one any harm.


Bodhiji- The link is not working, can you post from if you saved the file please

Also I request comments and suggestions to improve from ALL and Seniors as Gs

Devapriya Solomon

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - ramana - 04-25-2007

Solomon, Is it possible to provide translation of the Tamil script in English(when quoted) as the issues is much larger than only Tamil or Malayalam?

Thanks,
ramana

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-28-2007

Some interesting stuff, about <b>origin myths</b> of Syrian christians, <b>caste</b> among them (with meaning of 'superior and inferior') and <b>concepts of 'pollution'</b> among them as well as general christians <i>and</i> muslims in Tamil Nadu.

<b>Indian Christians: Pollution and Origins</b>, C. J. Fuller, <i>Man</i>, New Series, Vol. 12, No. 3/4. (Dec., 1977), pp. 528-529.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Drs Jacob and Dube are concerned in their letter (<i>Man</i> (N.S.) 12:340) with the Knanaya Syrians (or Southists). The Syrians I studied were Northists. I have since learnt that my statement that my informants did not know of the Northist-Southist division (p. 57) is incorrect. The division and the story of Thomas of Cana are known to some of the older men. Rather, I should have stated in my paper that the story of Thomas of Cana was never retailed to me by informants, who invariably quoted the story of St Thomas the Apostle when wishing to explain their origins. Characteristically, the story of Thomas of Cana is, I am told, turned round by the Northists. They claim that it demonstrates that Northists rank higher because of their Brahman ancestry, whereas the Southists, descended from Thomas of Cana's Nayar wife, therefore rank lower.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Jacob and Dube may have found that, even after five or six generations, new converts were not accepted as Syrians. The situation I found was different and I quoted my evidence (p. 62). Such local differences are scarcely evidence that I misunderstood the situation as I found it. 5. The story of the family buying Syrian status by offering enormous dowries (p. 62) was wellknown in the area. Jacob and Dube find it 'incredible' because they misunderstand the nature of Syrian status and, more generally, of Syrian origin myths. I do not know the original caste of this family. No-one knows. That is precisely the point: lt is possible to slander someone by saying he has low-caste origins, and that he is paying large dowries to buy himself affinal links with <i>bona fide</i> Syrians, i.e. Syrians who are not so slandered. The history of 'genuine Syrians' cannot be examined, for it is a myth. One is a member of the Syrian caste, i.e. has Syrian status, if, as I said, one can claim descent from St Thomas's Nambudiri converts <i>and . . . the claim is accepted by others</i>' (p. 61: my emphasis).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<b>Indian Christians and Pollution</b>, G. Eichinger Ferro-Luzzi, <i>Man</i>, New Series, Vol. 11, No. 4. (Dec., 1976), pp. 591-592.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->SIR,
In his article 'Kerala Christians and the caste system' (Man N.S. 11: 53-70) C. J. Fuller affirms that Kerala Christians like Muslims 'have no concept of bodily pollution consequent on birth, death, menstruation or other bodily conditions, nor do they observe pollution for them' (p. 64). I very much doubt the validity of this statement. My data come from the neighbouring state of Tamilnad, where Hindu, Christian and Muslim women observed pollution to varying degrees. Although I have not done research on this particular subject in Kerala, I hold it extremely unlikely that the phenomenon should disappear there. My conviction is based above all on the fact that Christian women also observed pollution in the bilingual district of Kanyakumari, which became part of Tamilnad only in 1956 and constitutes a cultural bridge between the two states. In Tamilnad almost 100 per cent of the Hindu women interviewed observed pollution of some sort. Of the forty-seven Muslim women interviewed all but one had been segregated at puberty, all observed birth pollution and none would touch the Koran during menstruation, but segregation during ordinary menstruation or the prohibition on cooking was decidedly less than among Hindus. Of the forty-seven Muslim women interviewed all but one had been segregated at puberty, all observed birth pollution and none would touch the Koran during menstruation, but segregation during ordinary menstruation or the prohibition on cooking was decidedly less than among Hindus. Of the eighty-six Christian women interviewed only five had no concept of pollution and five more had abolished the observance of pollution, when they were old enough to make their own decisions. Birth pollution and segregation at puberty were the rule among Christians, while segregation during ordinary menstruation and the prohibition on cooking were relatively rare. Pollution for Christians and Muslims may even last longer than for Hindus, as both communities have a preference for the number 7 in the case of menstrual pollution and for 40 in the case of birth pollution, whereas Hindus favour shorter periods.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Since the Old Testament as well as Muslim law books prescribe the observance of pollution and there are still vestiges of female pollution in southern and eastern Europe, it is not surprising that this tradition has remained alive among Christians and Muslims in pollution-conscious India. From what has been said, it will be clear that the concept of bodily pollution should also be found among Christians in Kerala.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Theirs can't be blamed on Hinduism of course, because the christoislamic concept of 'pollution' is based on the bible. I wonder whether that would explain why anthropologists still stick to the ingrained christian view of calling it 'pollution' even when they are observing non-christoislamic cultures.

I know for a fact that muslim women in N Africa are not allowed to touch the koran when they are having their periods, because of biblical/koranic pollution concept.

Related to Hinduism: Taiwanese friends (Taoist and Taoist-Buddhist) said girls do not go to their prayer room during their menstruation cycle and their mothers don't either, but that in some other families this was now allowed. Don't know about only-Buddhists.

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-28-2007

This is not 'Thomas Myth', but related to 'History of christianism in India'.

This and following 5 or so posts are excerpts about christian terrorism by colonials (Portuguese) in Goa, taken from:

<b>Flight of the Deities: Hindu Resistance in Portuguese Goa</b>, Paul Axelrod; Michelle A. Fuerch, <i>Modern Asian Studies</i>, Vol. 30, No. 2. (May, 1996), pp. 387-421.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Though there was sporadic violent resistance to the Portuguese conversion policies,3 the contesting of power in colonial Goa was not directly over access to basic resources, especially for the landholding groups in Goa: for the dominant castes, the Gaud Saraswat Brahmans (hereafter GSB) and the Marathas (called Chardos among Catholics in Goa), material well-being and traditional high status could be had for conversion. High caste Hindus who fled Portuguese control often gave up access to their hereditary rights to basic resources in order to escape the orbit of Portuguese control. Those who stayed in Goa contested Portuguese rule in many aspects of their daily life.4

Hindu resistance to Portuguese hegemony in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries thus represents a bold, and in many ways unique, challenge to colonial state authority in the battle for control of 'master symbols.' It was successful in that it created a diaspora culture whose most visible symbols, the temples just outside the area of Portuguese control, still draw thousands to the numerous festivals. In a multitude of ways these festivals, many remarkably explicit, celebrate the vibrancy of the Hindu religion in the face of Portuguese attempts to stamp it out. Hindu resistance in Goa was different from the well-known nonviolent examples of protest. In the cases of Zionism in Africa, which transformed signs of Protestant orthodoxy into an ideology of resistance, and the informal discourses of peasants in Malaysia, which have been shown to negate hegemony,6 the appropriation of the symbols of resistance did not directly defy or confront those in charge. Goan Hindus, in contrast, sacrificed their livelihoods and, in some cases, their lives while challenging the rules and defying the decrees of the colonial authorities.

The evidence for the resistance to Portuguese rule can be found in both the palpable, direct defiance of colonial policies under threat of punishment and in the more subtle ways that losers, fearing punishment, are forced to make their arguments. Because some Hindu deities were transported by migrating groups7 and were simply relocated to avoid persecution in lieu of resisting it under Muslim rule,<b>8</b> the direct connection between the transport of the deities and the resistance to Portuguese policies in Goa needs to be demonstrated. Were Hindus merely fleeing the jurisdiction of a draconian repressive regime or actively resisting their policies? Portuguese documents and Hindu temple histories, from opposing positions, are remarkably explicit about the connection between the relocation and activities of the temples and their role in instigating the populations under Portuguese control to defy the rules and thus provide the foundation for making this connection. More subtle indications of resistance can be found in the rituals and festivals which delineate a common ground of Goan culture that celebrates sodalities and practices that were explicitly prohibited by the Portuguese.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Footnote:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->8 The reaction to Muslim conversion policies was varied and more complex than the Goan response. S. M. Ikram, <i>Muslim Civilization in India</i> (New York: Columbia University Press: r964), p. 232 and Aziz Ahmad, <i>Studies in Islamic Culture in the Indian Environment</i> (Oxford: Oxford University Press: 1964), p. 199 suggest <b>a connection between intensified Muslim conversion and various forms of Hindu resistance. However, in some instances, it appears that destruction of the temples by Muslim rulers led to complete cessation of activities associated with it.</b> See S. M. Bhardwaj, Hindu Places of Pilgrimage in India (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1g73), p. 77. The pattern of Muslim proselytization ranged from peaceful persuasion of missionaries to forcible conversion by fanatical rulers and the results differed depending on the policies of the rulers and the practices of the indigenous populations. <i>Susan Bayly, Saints, Goddesses and Kings</i>, provides examples of the varied reactions to Islamicization in her book on South India.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-28-2007

Belongs with post 72:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Festivals of Resistance</b>
The <i>Konkanakhyana</i>, an eighteenth century Marathi language chronicle of the Saraswat Brahmans in Goa, celebrates the escape of the deities from the areas of Portuguese control. It tells of the 'calamitous happenings in Goa's most important villages' at the hands of the 'filthy Europeans' and the ensuing relocation of the gods from their sacred places, and boasts that these acts 'secured the honor' of these gods and 'confused and spoiled the efforts of the defiled foreigners.'14 Since Portuguese policies sought conversion to Christianity of all the inhabitants under their control and the elimination of Hindu practices altogether, these temples, by attracting both Hindus and newly converted Catholics from the area of Portuguese rule, were a continual source of frustration for Portuguese officials. They were the venues for apostasy and reconversions to Hinduism as well as a safe haven for orphans who were much sought after by the Portuguese for rearing in the Catholic faith, and they supplied Hindu priests for ceremonies within the areas of Portuguese jurisdiction.15 Remarkably, ties between the temples and the villages of origin were kept intact and it is this once illegal connection that is marked in a number of temple rituals. Moreover, for Hindus who fled the Portuguese and were scattered throughout Western India, these temples became the symbols of their ties to villages under Portuguese jurisdiction in the old conquest areas of Goa.
The annual cycle of celebrations at these temples provides rich ethnographic evidence for the structure of resistance: they literally and dramatically portray the Hindu defiance of the Portuguese conversion policies and the Inquisition.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The annual return of the goddess Bhagvati to the Tiswadi district village of Chimbel provides an instructive example of the tenacity of the culture of resistance. In the Hindu month of Chaitra (which comes at the end of April or beginning of May), the procession of the deity of Bhagvati leaves her temple in the <i>novas conquistas</i> village of Marcel, Goa by truck and bus on a ten kilometer journey to the village of Raibandar, where it is transferred to a palenquin for the remaining three kilometer journey to the village of Chimbel. Until recently, the deity was carried the entire distance on foot. The deity is brought to a temporary shelter, not far from the church built on the site inhabited by the goddess more than 400 years ago. There it is placed on a pedestal. The deity came to Marcel in 1673 from the village of Mahem, where it had originally been secretly taken from Chimbel in the mid-sixteenth century at the time of the Christianization of Goa during the first century of Portuguese rule.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Such ritual connections between Hindu deities secretly installed in temples outside of the region of Portuguese control and their village of origin permeate life all over Goa. The villages of Fatorpa and Cunculim in the adjoining talukas (districts) of Quepem (which is part of the <i>novas conquistas</i>) and Salsette (in the <i>velhas conquistas</i>) also celebrate an annual festival in which the historical connections are ritually reenacted. The goddess Shantadurga is brought by procession from Fatorpa to Cunculim. She had been taken by Hindus from Cunculim in the 1570s at the time of the destruction of the temple by the Portuguese.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In Siolim, Candolim and Anjuna, all Bardez villages, deities have also been formally returned to new temples in their original villages after being moved during Portuguese persecution in the mid-sixteenth century. These Hindu deities are only a few of the many that were transported into the neighboring Hindu and Muslim states in the face of the destruction of Hindu temples by the Portuguese during the middle part of the sixteenth century.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The attachment, after 450 years of separation between deity and its village of origin, suggests that the importance in Hindu thought of the substantive link between place and person, described so brilliantly by Daniel,19 applies to the relationship between deity and place as well. The veritable semicircle of Hindu temples of the transported deities around the old conquests of Goa, amazingly enough, was not the product of any particular centralized political control or coordinated plan of defiance. Though many of the temples operate under the aegis of one of several Saraswat gurus of various philosophical orientations, there was no organized conspiracy or master plan that led to the Hindu resistance. On the other hand, the mass exit of deities from virtually every village in Goa in the sixteenth century to territory outside the orbit of Portuguese control was more than a spontaneous panicked reaction to religious persecution: rather it is testimony to a process of Hindu thinking which connects persons in complex, substantive ways to their deities, and, in turn, persons and deities to the soil.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Goa's colonial experience under the Portuguese was quite different. Though the Padroado, the state-backed church system, and the military and commercial interests of the Estado da India were clearly bent on dominating and transforming Goan religious life, they paradoxically did not bring about the massive rural structural and economic dislocations seen in the New World and Africa: their focus, so far as native Goans were concerned, was mainly on conversion.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-28-2007

Related to post 72 onwards:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Goa under the Portuguese</b>
While no informed scholar goes so far as to portray it in such an extreme way, it is easy to get the impression from much of the extant literature that the arrival of the Portuguese in India was a colossal cultural juggernaut which stamped out a native cultural system and supplanted it with an Asian enclave of Western civilization. Accounts by some Catholics about the Christianization of Goa, apologists for Portuguese rule, Hindu opponents of Portuguese rule, monographs on Goan culture and society, and modern day impressions of casual visitors to Goa and many educated Indians often portray Goa as a Christianized, Lusified corner of India. Indeed, on reading the goals of those connected with the Padroado and correspondence by many church and state luminaries in the <i>Estado da India</i> during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the impression is received that the Portuguese were achieving great success in transforming Goa into a satellite of metropolitan Portugal. Document upon document chronicles mass conversions, the destruction of all the temples in Goa, and the swift success in Christianizing virtually every village in Goa.
The book has yet to be written assessing the varying reports on the levels of brutality and the willingness of Goans to convert to Christianity. It is highly unlikely that an entirely accurate account can ever be created because of the varied evidence. D'Costa, in a book which is largely an apology for the conversion policies, notes the same kinds of contradictions in the archival record that we find. Local traditions, he reports, tell of violence, resistance and the flight of Hindus from Goa, while the Jesuit annual accounts and a number of other official documents report warm receptions and mass conversions. Most documents and accounts concur that temples were destroyed and churches were erected in their place, though the levels of violence and brutality that accompanied them are difficult to determine and varied from village to village. There are also consistent reports of large numbers of Hindus fleeing the conversion, though the accounts vary on the proportion of the population who left. The matter is complicated by the periodic return of some Hindus and half-hearted conversions of others.
Contemporary Goa can also provide a misleading view of the nature and success of the conversion policies. Visually, Goa stands in stark contrast to neighboring Hindu India. Every village in the old conquests is dominated by a huge church, many of which date to the period of active Christianization in the mid-sixteenth century and are centrally located on the sites of the village temple.
In the mid-nineteenth century, the date of the earliest published census, Catholics were the clear majority of the population in the old conquests, comprising 77 per cent in Ilhas, 95 per cent in Salsette and 83 per cent in Bardez.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->However, other documents in the late sixteenth and early seventeenth century tell a story of frustration and recidivism on the conversion front. Portuguese administrative, military, and religious officials spoke often of the difficulties they faced in carrying out their policies, and numerous references to the intransigence of Hindus can be found from the mid-sixteenth century through the end of the seventeenth century. In the midst of great claims of success in converting entire villages and destroying virtually all of the Hindu temples in Ilhas, Salsette, and Bardez, is a persistent commentary on their inability to carry out those policies within the area of Portuguese control. More consistently, comments reveal their inability to control the Hindu activities in the areas outside of Portuguese jurisdiction, in which Goan Hindus and Catholics participated. There is ample archival evidence of the frustration of the Portuguese officials in carrying out their conversion policies.

<b>For example,</b> the Portuguese pledged to destroy Hindu temples and, in doing so, limit or stop the practice of Hinduism. Their lack of success shows in the following documents:
+ In the mid-sixteenth century, the viceroy Dom Joao de Castro receives a letter from the king stating that the king has received news that there are still public and private temples on the Island of Goa. He orders the viceroy to prohibit all public and secret temples as soon as the king's letter is received.
+ King Dom Sebastiao signs a letter on 25 March 1559 informing the viceroy that it has come to his attention that:
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->on Goa and annexed lands there are many offenses committed by the infidels and Gentiles there who adore and publicly celebrate idols and temples and use diabolical rituals and, worst, in the presence of Christians besides.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->He thus passes a law that 'henceforward there be no more temples nor idols in any house nor anywhere in my realm.'74
+ A few years later, on 29 March 1566 the king writes that no new temples can be built and that those existing ones cannot be repaired without the king's special licence under penalty of being rased.75

In spite of the destruction of many Hindu temples, royal correspondence (the so-called 'Monsoon letters') to the viceroys and governors of the <i>Estado da India</i> throughout the sixteenth century deal with the topic of Hindu temples in Christian lands:
+ The king writes on 28 March 1580 that there are to be 'no temples, no idols, no festivals allowed:' this was supposed to be done in 1568, but he knows that 'many Hindus keep reverting to their rituals particularly in Salsette and Bardez which is detrimental to the conversion process.'76<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-28-2007

Related to #72 and onwards:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Not only do the Portuguese find it impossible to rid the realm of the visible symbols of Hinduism, the temples and idols, but also of the practice of Hinduism itself:
+ A letter from the viceroy written in 1580 reports that:
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hindus set a bad example for new converts by worshipping idols and causing them to return to their old ways and rituals. The Hindus persevere in their idolatry and abominable errors. Anyone who impedes the work of conversion should be seriously punished. They cannot be allowed to have idols nor carry out festivals in their honor.77<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->+ The same decree is issued in 1633!
+ In 1571 and again in 1581 the king passes decrees forbidding temples and Hindu ceremonies.
+ On 25 February 1581, the king states that he bans, as his predecessors did, Gentile (Hindu) temples, ceremonies, rituals and festivals.

Many important government posts were held by Hindus even though this was not royally sanctioned. Repeated attempts to disallow this practice attest to the perseverance of Hindus in these offices, against the king's orders.
+ In 1582 Hindus are once again forbidden from holding public office, noting that Hindus had not met their obligation to convert to Christianity. The king had learned that Brahmans and Gentiles were <i>rendeiros</i> and <i>contratadores</i> (renters or tenants and contractors) of his lands. That is forbidden since it is against canon law. King Sebastiao previously passed a law on 23 March 1559 saying that none of his officers or royal servants could be Brahmans, Gentiles or other infidel.82
+ And later, on 12 January 1591, the king passes an <i>alvara</i> (decree) because he has been informed that his <i>dezembargadores</i> (chief magistrates and privy councilors) and other lettered men serving him in India have generally been Gentile Brahmans, and this must stop.83

Official thinking was to encourage conversion by reserving important posts only for Christians. Enticements to convert came in many other shapes as well:
+In 1583 the king writes that it has come to his attention that many Hindus leave their wealth without heirs. At the request of the Hindus, he allows their widows or other relatives to inherit that wealth provided they convert to Christianity.

Native reactions to conversion policies frequently were in the form of escape to what is referred to in the documents as 'terra firme' or 'a outra banda' or the 'land of the Moors' (the territories beyond the orbit of Portuguese control).
+ In September of 1595 a lengthy missive by the <i>Pai dos Cristaos</i> or Father of the Christians (the appointed official in charge of all catechumens) instructs the priests to learn the days of the Hindu festivals so as to stop them and punish the participants. Similarly he admonishes his priests to anticipate pilgrimages and marriage ceremonies so as to intervene. All orphans must be located because the infidels are taking them to the <i>terra firme</i>.
+ The viceroy Ayres Saldanha proclaims on 23 March 1604 an alvara (decree) that it is forbidden to carry any and all youths, whether Christian or Gentile orphans, to 'the other side.' It is happening too frequently.86
+ In 1609 the king complains that too many new converts are fleeing to the land of the 'Moors.' Ten years later on 15 February 1619 Lorenco de Tavora receives a letter from the king complaining about too many going to the 'outra banda.'87
+ A petition of 17 August 1633 notes that newly converted Christians are enticed by the Hindus to leave the faith and join them on the 'other side:' too many temples are maintained there. Many have left their lands and wealth behind while fleeing to the other side.88 The viceroy Dom Miguel de Noronha writes on 11 January 1633 complaining about those who impede conversion or those who pervert a large number of those already converted or who hide orphans and take them over to <i>terra firme</i> and build temples there.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-28-2007

Related to Post 72 and onwards:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Portuguese seemed to be unsure about what to do about contacts with Hindus on the other side. A solution to the problem of Hindu wedding ceremonies occurring in the realm was to order them to take place 'on the other side.' This, however, created other problems:
+ A letter written in the late eighteenth century discusses a law passed in response to Hindu complaints about being robbed on their way to the land of the Moors (where they had to go by law to marry). Thus, to avoid highway robbery, the law allowed them to have their wedding ceremonies at home behind closed doors. However, they were not allowed to have their priests or other temple officials in attendance so that no sacrifices or rituals would be performed. The Hindus wrote to complain that their wedding ceremonies were thus invalid without priests in attendance to perform the proper ceremonies, and that their women were defiled and their children considered illegitimate.
+ More than a century before, King Philip had written on 05 March 1624 to the viceroy in Goa to reinforce the decrees and provisions as passed by Jeronimo de Azevedo in May of 1613 and later by Fernao de Albuquerque in January of 1620 and again in May of 1621 that Hindu weddings not be allowed to take place. But they were still taking place in private homes in spite of these provisions and the Hindus continued going to the lands of the Moors 'where they freely practice their superstitious ways.' King Philip, with a copy sent to the Archbishop and to the Inquisitors, approved and confirmed the said prior provisions on 09 May 1625.91

The ongoing dilemma of Hindu wedding ceremonies is amply documented as it appears in the numerous laws passed throughout the seventeenth century alone. The repeated measures taken trying to restrict and/or forbid them seem to have been largely ineffectual. At one point Hindus were allowed to hold their ceremonies only on boats offshore in the dark!92
Many manuscripts in the archives deal with the issue of converting masses of individuals, principally uninstructed in the faith, and its concomitant problems:
+ King Dom Joao writes to the viceroy in response to his letter of 10 November 1712 regarding another letter sent by the Father of the Christians dealing with decrees and provisions in favor of the propagation of the faith and conversion of the Gentiles.
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Conversions must be official and not brutal. It is a principal obligation of the kings of Portugal to treat the Gentiles, our vassals, with great care; there have been too many abuses; I thought I told you that certain privileges were to have been taken away from the Gentiles; in no way can vassal Gentiles attend frequently and publicly the festivals of their temples on <i>terra firme</i>, and they must stop making public offerings to their idols. You may not permit this under severe punishment and officials are prohibited from working on such works. . . . Clear this up immediately. My laws must be followed.93<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->+ At the beginning of the seventeenth century King Philip wrote to the viceroy to thank him for his efforts to convert all inhabitants of Salsette in true conversion and not just in appearance, but in the king's letter of 22 September 1711, he complained to the viceroy that there is not enough zeal in conversion efforts these days.

A 1633 law by Count Linhares regarding the Hindus of Salsette, who had fled to avoid converting, shows the intractability of these problems well into the seventeenth century:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Many Gentiles impede other Gentiles from converting and thwart a great number of those already converted, and they hide orphans and pass them over to <i>terra firme</i>, building many temples there with materials from our lands, performing Gentile ceremonies in them, frequently sacrificing roosters and other animals for which they bring master sorcerers and gurus from the <i>terra firme</i> who go to the Christians' houses, intimidating them and persuading them that the pains and illnesses they have are punishments from their gods for not adoring them; [the gurus] promise them health and long life if they send offerings [to the idols], bringing from said temples accounts and other things like relics which they distribute amongst the weakest in faith, trying to get them to swear to the idols at the hour of their death; it is equally notorious that such Gentiles have idols in their homes for whom they perform various ceremonies and they perform the same diabolical ceremonies amongst themselves and not publicly with great shouts and cries and pilgrimages to the temples of the <i>terra firme</i> . . . all of which besides causing a great scandal and ruin to the New Christians is against royal provisions Your Majesty has passed in favor of Christianity; said Gentiles use great deceit and usury . . . In the service of Your Majesty [I order] the total expulsion of said Gentiles from the lands of Salsette . . . I hereby order that no Gentile from this day henceforward can live nor own homes in the lands of Salsette, with the loss of all privileges of their <i>gancarias</i>, nor can they own shares in the land nor have a voice, under penalty of death and loss of all their possessions . . . There will be a total separation of the Gentiles from the Christians during the two months in which the Gentiles have to sell their belongings and move out of Salsette.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These documents, and scores of others like them, show that reports of great success and conversions of entire villages notwithstanding, enormous difficulties remained for those involved in converting Hindus to Christianity and enforcing the provisions of the various associated policies. The Portuguese seemed to be preoccupied by several issues: their inability to remove Hinduism from Goa; the continuation of the Hindu ceremonies and the degree of participation by Christian converts; the movement of Hindus in and out of the areas of Portuguese control; their frustration with the centers of Hindu activities in the '<i>terra firma</i>,' those areas under the jurisdiction of native rulers in territories bordering Goa; and the Christianizing of widows and orphans. There is an obvious contradiction between the claims of conformity to the early royal decrees demanding complete Christianization of Goa in the mid-sixteenth century and the continued persistence of Hinduism in the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-28-2007

Final post related to #72 and onwards:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Recent commentaries on the history of the temples affirm the Portuguese frustration, though from a Hindu perspective. Most of the important temples have published their own histories, written mostly in Marathi.<b>97</b> They are remarkably uniform in presentation: traditional accounts of the temple's place in its pre-Portuguese village in old conquest Goa are followed by lengthy accounts of the brutal period of Portuguese oppression and the secret removal and reinstallation of the deity outside the area of Portuguese control. Though occasional documents from the archives are cited in support of these claims, it is clear that these accounts are part of the collective memory of the temple's mahajans. Some edited excerpts from Shri Ramnath Devasthan's own version capture the flavor and format of these histories.
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In 1566 the Temple of Shantadurga of Keloshi was set on fire. During that year conversion movement in Salsette reached its climax. All of a sudden the Fort Officer of Raitur, Diogo Rodrigues ordered the residents of Lotli to be present at the Fort. However, the order was not obeyed for fear of conversion. Annoyed at this, he destroyed the front portion of the main temple of Ramnath Devasthan. The residents of Lotli, angered by such an action, filed a court case against Rodrigues and his mates . . . Dissatisfied by the decision of the judge to preserve the temple, the viceroy issued special permission to Rodrigues to demolish all of the temples of Salsette. Accordingly in 1567, Rodrigues demolished all of the remaining temples of Salsette. In the year 1566, due to fear of conversion, many residents of Lotli fled to places like Antruz Mahal, Kankon, Karwar, Mangalore, Cochin etc. A group of 250 persons marching towards the South were attacked by tigers. Twenty people were lost. A hunter asked them why they were risking their lives by going through the forest and subjecting themselves to risk. Why were they not returning to Goa where they could have land, jobs and everything else? They replied that nothing was more dear to them than their religion and that they would never leave their dearest and the best Hindu religion. It did not matter if they had to die for this.
In view of the atrocities committed by the Christian missionaries, the residents of Lotli became desperate and felt that they could not enjoy any stability and hence they shifted their revered deities to other places. Their intention was to take these deities to a place where they would be free from the influence of the Portuguese government and their fanatical priests. They selected the village Bandivdem (the modern day village of Bandora). They transported the idols by bullock cart. They acquired a vast plot of land on permanent lease from the Bandora village association for the purpose of the erection of the temple. The deities were brought to a safe place but the problem was how to manage the daily affairs. The entire wealth of the temple at Lotli was lost. Under such adverse circumstances they learned to do business in the surrounding areas of Salsette and were meeting the expense by contributions collected among themselves. They engaged in business by day and came back to Antruz Mahal [a territory in the new conquest district of Ponda, then part of the Bijapur kingdom] at night. The Lotlikars thought it to be their responsibility to revive the old glory of the temple, and they purchased some lands and finalized plans to build independent temples for the deities.<b>98</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Footnotes marked bold just above:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->97 In addition to the works cited above by Dhume and Pissurlencar on the Mangesh and Shantadurga temples, some other examples of temple histories include, S. S. Sunthankar, <i>Ase AhE Shri Damodar</i> (Belgaum: Jijisa Prakashan, 1974); B. D. Satoskar, <i>Shri Devkikrishna Ravalnath Devasthan</i> (Mashel, Goa: Shri Devkikrishna Ravanath Devasthan, 1982); S<i>hri Nagesh Devasthan, Its Past and Present</i> (Bombay: Wagle P. S. & P. Put. LTD, 1974); <i>Souvenir Issued in the Mother's Service</i> [In English and Marathi] (Bombay: Shree Shantadurga Seva Samati, r 966); <i>Shri Sansthan Gokarn Partagali Math Pancha-Shatabdhi Mahotsav</i> (Partagali Goa: 1977); <i>Shri Ramnath Devsthan</i> (Ramnathim-Ponda, Goa: Shri Ramnath Devasthan, n.d.).

98 <i>Shri Ramnath Devsthan</i>, pp. 9-16.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This bit explains how Hindus were fleeing to Hindu lands, and to places governed by Hindus in regions under islamic rule:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Other versions of these temple histories are similarly explicit about individuals and dates of events that took place more than 350 years ago. Some use Portuguese records to support their claims; others, even in the absence of records, are just as precise in their accounts of the relocation of the temple. Though the Portuguese records and temple histories present these events in quite different terms, as would be expected, there is certainly enough evidence to confirm the significance of the return of the deities to their homes in the old conquests.

The diaspora and reconstruction of the temples in areas north and east of Goa, held by Adil Shah, and those west and south of Goa held by the Sonda kings, are thus confirmed by Portuguese records, temple histories, and Hindu rituals. The rather vivid collective memory of the traumatic events is not surprising. The survival and and the celebration of the Hindu resistance through movement of the deities and reestablishment of the temples outside of the area of Portuguese control are the best evidence. The persistence of the temples in the face of Portuguese oppression is a well-known tale to most devotees of the temple, and current accounts and reenactments of their historic connections to their ancestral villages conform to the documentary evidence.

To understand the opportunity for fleeing the Portuguese, something of the political order in the region adjacent to Goa is helpful. Goa and the region around it were in political flux just prior to and for more than a century after the arrival of the Portuguese. The Portuguese arrived in the wake of the decline of the Vijayanagar empire in the region and with the rise of the Adilshah rulers of Bijapur who secured the region during the last decade of the fifteenth century. It was from them that Goa was seized by the Portuguese. But during much of the sixteenth and early seventeenth century, the region around Goa was largely under the control of Hindu chiefs who were feudatories to the Bijapur rulers. To the south, the Suddha Nayaks of Sonda paid tribute initially to both the Bijapur and Vijayanagar rulers, but with the decline of both empires in the mid-seventeenth century, the Sonda rulers assumed the title of raja (king) in 1674. They controlled territory currently in the new conquest districts of Ponda, Quepem, and Canacona into which many of the deities were carried. Other hereditary chiefs, many of them with the titles <i>desai</i> and <i>sardessai</i>, ruled administrative districts to the east and north of Goa and achieved various degrees of independence as the Bijapur empire declined in the early seventeenth century. The Sawants of Wadi emerged as the main power in the areas of the modern districts of Pernem, Bicholim, Sattari, and Sanquelim in the new conquest territories to the north and west of Goa. But most of the relocation took place because of the power vacuum created by declining influence of the Islamic Bijapur and Hindu Vijayanagar empires in the area.
<b>The Portuguese documents often described the Hindus as fleeing to the land of the 'Moors,' a reference to the area under the nominal control of the Bijapur empire, but it was largely due to the local powers of the Hindu chiefs that the Hindus from Goa received hospitable reception.</b> Many of the important deities from the temples of Salsette were carried to what is today Ponda district, to the villages of Mardol, Bandora, Priol and Kavle, and <b>they attribute their relocation there to the hospitality of the Sonda kings and not the Bijapur rulers</b>.
Though the documentary evidence provides a murky picture of the events in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the ethnographic evidence and Marathi histories corroborate the trail of evidence in the documents which make the case for a sustained Hindu resistance during that period.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-29-2007

preceding posts from Husky are very intriguing and important.

Solomonji, I have fixed the URL in post 68, it works now. Also the request from Ramana to you, to provide the translations where applicable and possible for you, would be, I am sure, very much a request from a large group of readers including me. While I can read and understand Tamil with some effort, I would very much appreciate if you can add English translations. Thanks for the information you provided.

Thomas In India? History Of Christianism In India - Guest - 04-29-2007

<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Apr 29 2007, 09:30 AM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Apr 29 2007, 09:30 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Solomonji, I have fixed the URL in post 68
[right][snapback]68009[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Unfortunately the book is only searchable, not all readable in one go. Could you state which page is relevant or what keyword to search on ('Madras' didn't give access to relevant bits)? Or alternatively, if it's not too much trouble, could you summarise what point that issue of Dublin Review makes regarding land grabs in Tamil Nadu?



Casteist segregation in Indian christianity lasts to the death. And it remains relevant upto the highly-anticipated (but not forthcoming) day of judgement and doubtless beyond:

<b>South Indian Christians, Purity/Impurity, and the Caste System: Death Ritual in a Tamil Roman Catholic Community</b>, David Mosse, <i>The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute</i>, Vol. 2, No. 3. (Sep., 1996), pp. 461-483.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->the history of <b>Alapuram</b> reveals, nonetheless, a complex interpenetration of the worlds of caste and Catholicism, and a disputed boundary between them. On the one hand, the Catholic sacred (even the Mass itself) has constantly been invaded by caste values in the form of segregated seating arrangements, church entrances and distributions of the sacrament, and even in the form of separate statues for veneration37 as villagers have continued to find in church ritual occasions for the validation of caste position. This is true of the rites of death as much as any other rituals. As we have seen, the Christian bier, despite its impurity-denying identification with the body of the crucified Christ, is still capable of evoking the nexus of pollution and caste status. Moreover, if village Christians leave caste and impurity at the church door, where the barber and Untouchable funeral servants also wait, this social and ritual order is reinstated at the cemetery. Despite the emphasis on death as renunciation, and despite the negation of the material and social world, the cemetery provides a microcosm of the social distinctions in the village. The graves of the different Catholic castes map the physical positions of their streets, as well as their seating arrangements in church (high castes to the north, low castes to the south); the wealthy have large tomb-stones, the poor decaying wooden crosses. The human dead have not really left the social world at all. Their tombs 'provide an idealised material map of the permanent social order' (Bloch & Pany 1982: 35). Even those who die away from the village have false graves made for them at a rite resembling the final funeral ceremony. On the other hand, conceptions of the domain of the Catholic religion have themselves been shaped over the centuries by factors which include changing forms of missionary authority and priesthood. Thus, in contrast to its pre-colonial form, the nineteenth- and twentieth-century church has acted to establish and extend a Christian religious domain beyond and against caste culture -to erode purificatory rites, to challenge ritual privilege and to support low caste social protest (Mosse 1994; 1996). In this respect, the church has maintained an uneasy and shifting frontier with caste society in rural Ramnad. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->'Alapuram':<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->NOTES
This article is based on fieldwork carried out in <b>the village of 'Alapuram' (a pseudonym)</b> in 1982-4, together with brief visits in the period 1988-91, and on archival records of the Jesuit Madura Mission (at the Sacred Heart College, Shembaganur, Kodaikanal, Tamil Nadu). I am grateful to the ESRC for a research grant, and to Mr M. Sivan for field assistance. Transliteration in the text follows the conventions of the Madras University Tamil Lexicon. This article has also had the benefit of comment and editorial work from Simon Harrison.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The third statement made blue above: "in contrast to its pre-colonial form, the nineteenth- and twentieth-century church has acted to establish and extend a Christian religious domain beyond and against caste culture" - the church never thought of equality until equality became something secular humans in Europe started striving for. All of a sudden the church realised it better become the champion of equality or else it will continue to be recognised as the chief source of inequality in christian and christianised lands. Since then, its PR blitz campaign has been one of 'egalite, fraternite and liberte' - not the church's exact words of course, otherwise everyone would know where they stole that from.

"19th and 20 century church has acted to establish... christian religious domain... <i>against</i> caste culture" - yeah right. Perhaps that explains why even in 1991 an Indian christian archbishop had to bring it to church attention how dalits, though making up most of the converts in many states, are still the smallest number in priestly positions. ( http://www.dailypioneer.com/displayit1.asp...jain/jain55.txt )

I find the whole excuse of 'caste-system in christianity is a left-over from Hinduism' pathetic. Doesn't their religion promise instant fixes? Didn't it promise equality and acceptance and all that stuff that sounded good but turned out to be no different from the hot air communism produces in vast quantities? Loser ideology should own up. Stop blaming Hinduism whenever christianism shows up problems that it's powerless to fix. Funny that 'Syrian' christians who claimed to have been brahmoons converted by Thomas (of Cana or the Apostle, it keeps changing) still - after 1.5 millennia or more according to their myths - consider themselves better than other 'Syrian' christians because of some imaginary brahmoon ancestry (post 71).

Instead of blaming Hinduism for casteism in christianity like christos do, I argue that christianity is a religion that makes fertile ground for christo-casta-ism, racism and other bigotries, where these take easy root in the soil so congenial to them; and thus they become so firmly entrenched, they last for a long time if not forever. I've yet to see one of these permanently and completely abolished in the christian sphere (slavery wasn't abolished because of christianity but <i>in spite</i> of it, racism persists in many S churches in US).