+- Forums (http://india-forum.com)
+-- Forum: Indian History & Culture (http://india-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Indian History (http://india-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=10)
+--- Thread: Ancient Indian History (/showthread.php?tid=655)
Ancient Indian History - dhu - 07-15-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Jul 15 2009, 01:25 AM-->QUOTE(ramana @ Jul 15 2009, 01:25 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->So what does Greek Synchronicity say about all this?
Were there two Maghadas/ One earlier of the Indus phase and the other of latter times?
[right][snapback]99676[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pal's site is saying that Mauryan era Buddhism was promoted by Greeks. And that the Mauryan Emperor Asoka was the Greek ruler Diodotus. This theory is part of spectrum of theories about extra-Indian origin of Buddhism, Alexander as Skanda, and the like. Greek synchronicity with Mauryas is essential for this theory. Magadha in Mbh and Magadha in Mauryan era may be different but this does not have any significance for Buddha's relation to Magadha in Bihar. What more, Pal appears to be promoting his theory as correction to Jones' Eurocentrism!!
Ancient Indian History - acharya - 07-15-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Jul 14 2009, 03:19 PM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Jul 14 2009, 03:19 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> What more, Pal appears to be promoting his theory as correction to Jones' Eurocentrism!!
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jones is wrong in his history which is baised with Eurocentrism
Now Pal is promoting his own Indic theory - only a theory without deeper research and corroborative evidence from other areas such as archeology. THat is where the problem is.
Ancient Indian History - HareKrishna - 07-15-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Jul 15 2009, 08:49 AM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Jul 15 2009, 08:49 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Pal's site is saying that Mauryan era Buddhism was promoted by Greeks.
[right][snapback]99683[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From religios point of view ,eurocentrists claim that bhakti movements(vishnuism,shivaism,mahayana buddhism) are influences from greek mistery cults,persian-babilonian zoroastrism,judaism or even christianity.
They claim that indians knew only 2 religios movements-folk rituals and meditation based movements(jain,hinayana buddhism,brahmanism).
If christians,eurocentrist point out the archetype of indian ascetic which is presented as cold ,indiferent,inhuman,selfish,pasive versus christian ascetic which is altruistic and active.From here the need to present bhakti movement as a pure european "invention".
Is the religious side of the old dogma of orientalism-pasive and decadent orientals versus superior westerners.
They claim that Bhagavatism is of greek origin because worship of Vasudeva was made by a greek(see Heliodorus pillar).
Ancient Indian History - HareKrishna - 07-15-2009
For an eurocentric ,the oriental have no qualites at all.If the oriental is peaceful he is weak,if agresive(even in selfdefence),he is barbaric and devil posesed;when altruistic hes indulging,when rational hes superstitious.
Ancient Indian History - acharya - 07-15-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-HareKrishna+Jul 14 2009, 11:02 PM-->QUOTE(HareKrishna @ Jul 14 2009, 11:02 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->For an eurocentric ,the oriental have no qualites at all.If the oriental is peaceful he is weak,if agresive(even in selfdefence),he is barbaric and devil posesed;when altruistic hes indulging,when rational hes superstitious.
[right][snapback]99689[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you give us some links and article on this.
This is interesting.
THey dont want to give any credit to any aspect of Hinduism to India at all. This started with the intellectual revolution of the west- Euro from 1700s.
Ancient Indian History - Bodhi - 07-17-2009
HISTORY OF MIGRATION OF PANCHATANTRA AND WHAT IT CAN TEACH US - Speech by Prof Vijay Bedekar
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1.   HISTORY OF MIGRATION OF PANCHATANTRA
2.   EFFECT OF THIS MIGRATION ON ART
3.   LATE TRANSLATIONS OF PANCHATANTRA AND KATHA LITERATURE
4.   SOME THORNY ISSUES
5.   WHAT CAN BE SEARCHED IN PANCHATANTRA?
6.   TRANSFER OF KNOWLEDGE FROM EAST VIA PERSIA / ARABIA TO WEST
7.   WHAT IT CAN TEACH US
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ancient Indian History - ramana - 07-17-2009
Bodhi or someone please post the text for those who cant go to the link?
Thanks, ramana
Ancient Indian History - dhu - 07-17-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->1) HISTORY OF MIGRATION OF PANCHATANTRA
There is hardly any other secular work in the World which has penetrated so deeply in many cultures encompassing practically every continent of the World. During the last 1500 years there are at least 200 translations of Panchatantra in about 60 languages of the World. Aesop fables (2), Arabian Nights(3), Sindbad(4) and more than 30 to 50% of Western nursery rhymes and Ballads have their origin in Panchatantra and Jataka stories(5). In European countries there is so much of migration and borrowing of stories from one another over many centuries, making it difficult to finalize their origin at one location in Europe. However, most of the times their Indian origin is not in dispute (6). Much of the confusion started settling(7)after the works of Theodor Benfey in 1859(8), Johannes Hertelâs various articles and his seminal work Panchatantra- text of Purnabhadra in 1912(9), and finally Franklin Edgertonâs two volumes of The Panchatantra reconstructed in 1924(10). Traditionally in India it is believed that Panchatantra was composed around 3rd century BC (11). Modern scholars depending on references to earlier Sanskrit works in Panchatantra assign the period of 3rd to 5th Century CE. for it's composition in today's form (12). The author of Panchatantra is not known.
Panchatantra migrated to Iran in the 6th century CE (13). The story is well known. Burzoe, a physician (Figure 1) at the court of Sassanian king Anushirvan (531-571 c.CA), was sent to India in search of Sanjivani herb. In search of this medicine he traveled a lot in India and brought Panchatantra to Iran, which he translated into Pahlavi, titled Kalilah wa Dimnah, with the help of some Pundits (14). This is the first known translation of Panchatantra into any foreign language. It is not available now but translation done into old Syrian language in 570CE by a Nestorian Christian called Bud, was discovered in a monastery in Mardin, Turkey in 1870CA (15). The title of this book is Kalilag and Damanag, which is the Syrian version of Karataka and Damanaka, of the two jackals in the first Tantra of Sanskrit Panchatantra. This Syrian version was edited and translated into German in 1876 CE by Bickell and then again by Schulthess in 1911CE. Syrian translation is very close to Tantrakhyayika in many respects. The third important translation of Panchatantra was done after two centuries in Baghdad in 750 CE. Abdallah ibn al-Moquaffa a Zoroastrian converted to Islam; working in the court of Abbasid Caliph al-Mansur translated it from Pahlavi. Moquaffa is credited with intellectual and literary development of Arabic prose. His Panchatantra translation enjoyed great popularity and is considered as master piece of Arabic narrative literature (16). Almost all pre-modern translations of Panchatantra in Europe have their roots in his Arabic translation. From Arabic it got again translated to Syrian language in 10th/11th century CE (17) and into Greek in the 11th century CE. 12th century CE Hebrew translation by Rabbi Joel further got translated into Latin by John of Capua around 1263-1278 CE which got printed in 1480 CE. From this Latin translation Doni translated it into Italian which got printed in 1552 CE. La Fontaineâs collection of fables titled âFables of Bidpaiâ in French got published in 1678-9 CE in four volumes. In the introduction of his second volume he has acknowledged his indebtedness to Indian Sage Pilpay for inspiration (18). Many Subhashitas and Jataka stories have migrated to West and have formed an inseparable part of European secular and religious literature including Bible (19). Panchatantra in its German translation was the first Indian and probably second book after Bible published by Gutenberg press in 1483 CE. Panchatantra had earlier migrated to Tibet, China and Mongolia and almost all South Eastern countries. In Java there are versions available in old Javanese language known as Tantri Kamandaka, composed in 1031 CE (20). In the reign of Photisarath (1500-1550) and Sai Setthathirat (1550-1571) Lao version of Panchatantra was composed along with Jataka tales, most of them unique to Laos. Relatively less work and critical study is available on these works.
2) EFFECT OF THIS MIGRATION ON ART
Panchatantra has inspired many artists and there are many Persian and Arabic miniatures, wall paintings and Vases decorated with stories from Panchatantra or various versions of Kalilah wa Dimnah. In Sri-Lanka, a fragment of second or third century CE Indian red polished ware exhibiting crocodile-monkey story has been unearthed. Seventh century CE Mamallapuram rock relief has Panchatantra stories and tenth century Bengal Temple has them on molded terra cotta plaques. A 12th century CE Vishnu temple ceiling at Mandapur also is decorated with Panchatantra stories. In Central Asia, at Panjikent 7th and 8th century CE Soghdian artists have decorated walls of their houses with Panchatantra and Aesopâs fables. The artistic penetration of Jataka/Panchatantra tales and their translated versions is fascinating and textual and artistic expressions should be studied together. It may surprise many that in the preface of Kalila wa Dimnah, Ibn al Muqaffa mentions the reasons for paintings in his text i.e. to provide pleasure to the reader and also to make the reader more mindful of the bookâs value. We do not have these early copies now (21). Another work of art which became very popular was created by Husain bin âAli-al-Waiz al Kashifi, titled Anwar-i-suhaili at Herat in 1504 CE. This work was very popular in Persian intellectuals then. For some time this Text was taught to British officials of the East India Company at the East India College, Haileybury during the second half of the 19th century. Abul Fazl in 1588 CE under the instructions of Mughal Emperor Akabar produced another Persian version titled, Iyar-i-Danish (Criterion of Knowledge).Miniatures based on these works are very popular (22). 12th century CE Shuka Saptati, another Katha literature, of classical Sanskrit was adapted into Persian in 1329 CE. Author Ziya al-din Nakhshabi titled his translation as Tutinamah. It was translated into German in 1822 CE and subsequently into many other European languages including English by F.Gladwin at the end of the last century (23). Cleveland Museum of Art has some of the best paintings of Tutinama manuscript (24). In India, Panchatantra stories have become the part of temple architecture along with Ramayana and Mahabharata stories (25).Â
3) LATE TRANSLATIONS OF PANCHATANTRA AND KATHA LITERATURE
In the Colonial period it obviously began with Sir William Jones. He used the Sanskrit text of Hitopadesha for learning Sanskrit and translation practice, as he was familiar with the Turkish version which was translated into French language also (26). He mentions Panchatantra and Niti Shastra in his address given to Asiatic society of Bengal in the year 1786 CE which was founded by him in the year 1784 CE. His translation of Hitopadesha was published posthumously in his Works (27). However, Wilkinsâ English translation of Hitopadesha got published earlier in the year 1787 CE (28). H.H. Wilson wrote on Hindu Fiction but not on Panchatantra or Hitopadesha specifically (29). We owe our debt to Max Muller (30), Buhler (31), and Kielhorn (32) for their valuable contribution to some facets of this literature and also to Sternbach (33) for his valuable contributions to Subhashitas. Many Indian, German, English and American scholars have critically edited and helped to preserve this voluminous literature for posterity.
However, Panchatantra was translated into English by Sir Thomas North in 1570 CE from an Italian translation done by Doni in 1552 CE. Joseph Jacobs in his introduction to Northâs English translation mentions about twenty translations of various versions of Panchatantra in Europe (34). British Library catalog lists about nine popular editions of the Fables of Pilpay published during seventeenth and eighteenth centuries CE and only three in the nineteenth century CE indicating decline in its popularity (35).
4) SOME THORNY ISSUES
Some issues like its name, time of composition, name of the author, its unique structure of frame story and embedded stories(36) etc has been addressed and studied at length, though we do not have final answers yet.
Its probable relation to early folk and oral tradition of story telling in India has been suggested by many. Rather, it is fashionable to make such statements that Panchatantra and allied Katha literature in India had their origin in early folk stories. However, not a single credible evidence has been produced till this date, other than lengthy discussions on hypothetical assumptions. Norman Brown has very elaborately discussed this issue at length taking into consideration almost all documented Folk story literature available to him then. While not denying this possibility in early times, he says
It is doubtless true that in the remote past many stories had their origin among the illiterate folk, often in pre-literary times, and were later taken into literature. It is also just as true that many stories that appear in literature existed there first and are not indebted to the folklore for their origin. But leaving aside questions concerning the early history of Hindu stories and dealing strictly with modern Indian fiction, we find that folklore has frequently taken its material from literature. This process has been so extensive that of the 3000 tales so far reported, all of which have been collected during the past fifty years, at least half can be shown to be derived from literary sourcesâ¦.
Norman Brown, after analyzing and comparing many stories of Panchatantra and folklore, comes to the conclusion,
This table affords considerable evidence in support of the theory that it is the folk tales and not the literary tales that are borrowed. (37)
5) WHAT CAN BE SEARCHED IN PANCHATANTRA?
Study of Panchatantra is multi layered i.e. cultural, social, anthropological, didactical, comparative literature, moralistic, polity and administration and last but not the least, artistic. Scholars during last 1500 years have worked on almost all facets of Panchatantra. Still there are many areas not explored adequately .M.R. Kale in the preface of his Panchatantra book states,
Vishnusarman, as the quotations show, was well acquainted with politics, the aphorisms of Vatsyayana, ancient history and the science of astronomy (38).
We know about Kautilyaâs writings in Panchatantra, little of Vatsyayana, through Ludwik Sternbach about Dharmashastra (39), but nothing about science of astronomy is known. Panchatantra was composed prior to 5th Century CE. That is the period around which Siddhanta writers and Aryabhata wrote their texts of mathematical astronomy. We know the story of two fishes and the frog in the 5th tantra, and their names are Shatabuddhi, Sahasrabuddhi and Ekabuddhi respectively, indicating definitely the knowledge of decimal system in the society then. Study of astronomical references in Panchatantra may throw light on many dark corners of the history of mathematics.
Characterizing animal behavior and making it popular in our gnomic literature will have to be credited to Panchatantra. We know very recently about self recognition ability of some animals, like humans. Self recognition is the understanding that oneâs own mirror reflection does not represent another individual but oneself. Very few animals like apes, dolphins and Asian elephants are capable of this ability. Recently Gallup published his seminal article in the issue of science (1970, Vol.167:86-87) on Chimpanzees: self recognition. In a very recent article in PLoS (Biol 6(8), August 19, 2008) this ability is confirmed with Magpie, a songbird species from the crow family. Mirror and the mark is the standard test used now to know this ability in animals. Lions do not have this ability. The story of lion (tantra I) getting misled by his image in water is a classic example of lack of this ability in lions. Selection of animals for particular story is not accidental but seems to be an outcome of keen observation of surrounding, especially animal kingdom.
6) TRANSFER OF KNOWLEDGE FROM EAST VIA PERSIA / ARABIAÂ TO WEST
Panchatantra was not the only text translated in the sixth century CE. It was the beginning of the translation era. Chess (40), medical, toxicological (41) and literally many mathematical Sanskrit texts were translated to Persian and Arabic languages (42). This knowledge enrichment movement lasted till 12th to 13th Century CE. It started in 5th & 6th Century CE at Jundishapur (Figure 2), Iran in pre-Islamic times, continued in Umayyadi Damascus, Syria and further in Abbasid Baghdad in Iraq in 8th to10th Century CE with the formation of Bait al-Hikma (House of Wisdom). Along with Sanskrit texts many Greek texts were also translated into Persian and Arabic. This was a golden period of Islamic civilization while Europe was in dark period. In 14th Century CE at Toledo, Spain started latinization of this knowledge, which helped Europe for her scientific revolution in 16th Century CE and also laid the foundation of Renaissance. This was also the beginning of Westernization and Hellenization of Sciences (43) and further of Orientalism in history writing (44). This transfer of knowledge to Europe from India via Persia/Syria/ Iraq route is known, documented but not well communicated or reflected satisfactorily in todayâs encyclopedias and knowledge books of all sciences. These translations and borrowings were not without additions, deletions and cultural corrections. Todayâs insistence on universality or unity of science may be politically correct but such assumptions or presuppositions numb our inquiry apparatus towards earlier non European civilizations. It also blinds us towards cultural moorings of science on which was founded the epistemology of science of those respective cultures (45). Study of Subhashitas and Panchatantra is no exception to this.
7) WHAT IT CAN TEACH US
The Message of Panchatantra is loud, clear and universal. For Arabs and Europeans, its moralistic tone was appealing. They made alterations when they found shrewdness of Panchatantra unpalatable. However, the message of Panchatantra is explicitly visible in its Kathamukha. Even a stupid or idiot can be made into an adept, only and only if he submits or is lucky to get a creative Guru (Master). Today we talk of knowledge society. There are no better justifications known to us today for the value of knowledge to a sustainable society than the preamble of Panchatantra. The message is simple, practical and down to earth.
The material available on Panchatantra is in many languages and is so vast that it is practically impossible to review and grasp this for one individual, and a team of scholars, expert in many languages is required for this purpose. This justifies, at least in India, a special chair for the study of Panchatantra and Katha literature. It also must be included in sciences and humanities curricula of schools and colleges.
Thank You.
Vijay Bedekar
President,
Institute for Oriental Study, Thane.
E-mail: vbedekar@yahoo.comÂ
. NOTES & REFERANCES
1)   Visit institutes web site: http://www.orientalthane.com (Appeal)
2)Â Â Â Joseph Jacobs is of the opinion that many of Aesopâs fables have striking similarity with Jataka tales, which he has discussed in considerable length in the introductory volume of Caxtonâs Esope, edited by him. (London, D.Nutt, Bibliotheque de Carabas, 1889). However, Edgerton is not of this opinion. He could trace very few stories to Indian origin (The Panchatantra published by George Allan & Unwin Ltd, 1965. Introduction, pp.13.)
3)Â Â Â MacDonald, D.B. 1924. The Early History of the Arabian Nights, Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society. pp:371-376; Abbott, N. 1949. A Ninth Century Fragment of the âThousand and One Nightsâ: New Light on the Early History of the Arabian Nights, Journal of Near Eastern Studies, viii, pp. 157-178.
4)Â Â Â Sindbad stories are known to Europe as Seven Sages of Rome and again Joseph Jacobs is of the opinion that they have Indian origin.
5)Â Â Â For Indic origin of Ballads see Dundes, Alan. Indic Parallels to the Ballad of the âWalled-up Wifeâ Reveal the Pitfalls of Parochial Nationalistic Folkloristics. The Journal of American Folklore 1995; Vol.108, No. 427, pp. 38-53.
6)Â Â Â McKenzie, Kenneth. An Italian Fable, Its Sources and Its History. Modern Philology 1904; Vol.1, No.4, pp. 497-524.
7)Â Â Â Edgerton, Franklin. The Hindu Beast Fable in the light of Recent Studies. The American Journal of Philology 1915; Vol. 36, No.1, pp. 44-69.
8)Â Â Â Benfey, Theodor S. 1859; Pantschatantra. 2 Volumes. Leipzig, F.W. Brockhaus.
9)Â Â Â Hertel, Johannes. 1912. The Panchatantra-Text of Purnabhadra. Cambridge, Harvard University.
10)Â Edgerton, Franklin. 1924. The Panchatantra Reconstructed 2 Volumes. New Haven, American Oriental society.
11)Â Jacobs, Joseph. 1888. The earliest English Version of the Fables of Bidpai, Introduction, pp. xv: âThe latest date at which the stories were thus connected is fixed by the fact that some of them have been sculpted round the sacred Buddhist shrines of Sachi, Amaravati, and the Bharhut, in the last case with the titles of the Jatakas inscribed above them. These have been dated by Indian archaeologist as before 200BCE, and Mr. Rhys-Davis produces evidence which would place the stories as early as 4oo BCE and 200 BCE, many of our tales were put together in a frame formed of the life and experience of the Buddha.â
12)Â Olivelle, Patrick. 1997. The Panchatantra The Book of Indiaâs Folk Vision, Introduction xii, Oxford worldâs Classics, OUP.
13)Â de Blois, Francois. 1990. Burzoyâs Voyage to India and the Origin of the Book of Kalilah Wa Dimnah. Prize Publication Fund volume. XXIII. London; Royal Asiatic Society.
14)Â The details of this story we get in: The Shah Nama, The Epic of the Kings, translated by Reuben Levy, revised by Amin Banani, Published by Routledge & Keegan Paul, London 1985. Chapter xxxi (iii): How Burzoe brought the Kalila of Demna from Hindustan, pp. 330-334.
15)Â Yuka, Iwase. 1999. Development of Selected Stories from Panchatantra/Kalilah we Dimnah: Genealogical Problems Reconsidered On the Basis of Sanskrit and Semitic Texts, Introduction P.8. A Doctoral Dissertation, Graduate School of Integrated Studies in Language and Society. Osaka University of Foreign Studies. See also: The Fall of the Idigo Jackal: the Discourse of Division and Purnabhandraâs Panchatantra by McComas Taylor, Introduction, p. 10
16)Â Irwin, Rober. 2006. The Penguin Anthology of Classical Arabic Literature, Penguin books, London has 14 entries to Kalila wa Dimna under Ibn al-Muqaffa in the index; See also: The Fables of Kalilah and Dimnah, translated from the Arabic by, Saleh Saâadeh Jallad. 2004. Rimal/Melisende, Cyprus/UK; Chandra Rajan in her translation of Panchatantra published by Penguin Books informs us: âIt is conjectured that al-Muqaffa who rendered Burzoeâs Pehlavi version of the Panchatantra into Arabic (Kalilah wa Dimnah) in AD 750, also used an earlier Arabic version of the work by a Jew who knew both Sanskrit and Arabicâ.
17)Â Keith-Falconer,Ion G.N., 1885 tr. Kalilah and Dimnah or the Fables of Bidpai: an English Translation of the Latter Syriac Version after the text Originally edited by William Wright, with Critical notes and Variant Readings Preceded by an Introduction, Being an Account of their literary and Philological History. Cambridge (Repr. Amsterdam: Philo Pres 1970.)
18)Â For extensive details on La Fontaine and Bidpai see: Till, A. 1939 La Fontaine and Bidpai, The Modern Language Review, Vol.34, No.1, pp. 29-39
19)Â Sternbach, Ludwik. 1981. Indian Wisdom and Its Spread beyond India, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 101, No. 1. pp. 120-123
20)Â Venkatasubbiah, A. 1966, A Javanese Version of the Panchatantra, Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Vol. XLVII.
21)Â Robinson, B.W. 1958. The Tehran Manuscript of Kalila Wa Dimna a reconsideration, Reprinted from Oriental Art, New Series Vol. IV.No.3, The Oriental Art Magazine Ltd. See also Cowen, Sanchia Jill. 1989. Kalila Wa Dimna, An animal Allegory of the Mongol Court, The Istanbul University Album. OUP
22)Â Qaisar, A.Jan; S.P. Verma, edt. Art and Culture Painting and Perspective pp. 35
23)Â Haksar A.N.D., 2000. Shuka Saptati Seventy Tales of the Parrot. Harper Collins, India. Introduction: xvi & xvii.
24)Â Seyller, John, 1992. Overpainting in the Cleveland Tutinama. Artibus Asiae, Vol.52 No.3/4 pp.283-318
25)Â Patil, Channabasappa S. 1995. Panchatantra in Karnataka Sculptures. Karnataka State Directorate of Archaeology and Museums, Mysore.
26)Â Murray, Alexander. Ed. With Introduction by Richard Gombrich. 1998. Sir William Jones 1746-1794 a Commemoration, pp. 132. OUP.
27)Â Ibid. 132
28)Â Wilkins, Charles. 1787. tr. Fables and Proverbs from Sanskrit Being the Hitopadesa. George Routledge and Sons Ltd, London.
29)Â Wilson, H.H. 1864. Works by the Late Horace Hayman Wilson. Vol. III. ( Hindu Fiction Vol. II pp. 156-268).
30)Â Muller, F. Max. 1895. On the Migration of Fables. Chips from the German Workshop. New edn. Vol.IV: Essays on Mythology and Folk-lore.pp.412-489. London.
31)Â Buhler, G., 1891 a&b resp. ed. Panchatantra II,III IV & V. Bombay Sanskrit Series No.1&3. Bombay.
32)Â Kielhorn, F., 1896.ed. Panchatantra I. Bombay Sanskrit Series No.4. Bombay.
33)Â Sternbach, Ludwik.1974. Subhashita, Gnomic and Didactic Literature. A History of Indian Literature (Part of Vol.IV).edited By Jan Gonda. Otto Harrassowitz. Wiesbanden. Also see; Sternbach, Ludwik. 1960. The Hitopadesha and its Sources. American Oriental Society, New Haven.
34)Â Jacobs, Joseph. 1888. edt. The Earliest English Version of the Fables of Bidpai; the Morall Philosophie of Doni, By Sir Thomas North. D.Nutt. London
35)Â McComas, Taylor. The Fall of the Idigo Jackal: the Discourse of Division and Purnabhandraâs Panchatantra by, Introduction, p.5.
36)Â Gittes, Katharine Slater. 1983. The Canterbury Tales and the Arabic Frame Tradition, PMLA, Vol, 98.No.2 pp.237-251. Reply to her conclusions was given by Ibrahim Dawood of Yarmouk University of Jordan and Julie Scott Meisami of Berkeley, California in the next volume 99 of PMLA, pp. 109-112. Also see: Witzel, M. 1987. On the Origin of the History Device of the âFrame Storyâ in Old Indian Literature. Hinduism and Buddhism. Freiburg. Pp.380-414.
37) Brown, Norman W. 1919. The Panchatantra in Modern Indian Folklore. Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 39, pp. 1&17.(1-54). Incidentally, subject of Norman Brownâs Doctoral Dissertation (1916) was Modern Indian folklore and its relation to literature.Part I: The Panchatantra in modern Indian folkloreâ¦.
38)Â Kale, M.R. 2005(first printed in 1912 at Bombay)) Panchatantra of Visnusarman , Motilal Banarasidas, Delhi.
39)Â Sternbach, Ludwik. Indian Tales Interpreted from the point of View of the Smritis: Panchatantra 1.13, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol.68, No.2, pp. 84-91
40)Â Murray, H.J. 1913, A history of Chess. Oxford; Gamer, Helena M. 1954. The Earliest Evidence of Chess in Western Literature: The Einsiedeln verses, Speculum, Vol.29 No. 4 pp. 734-750; Wilkinson, Charles K. 1943. Chessman and Chess, The Metropolitan Museum of Art bulletin, New series, Vol.1 No.9. pp. 271-279; Antin, David. 1968 Caxtonâs the game and Playe of the Chess, Journal of the History of Ideas, Vol.29, No.2, pp. 269-278; Topsfield, Andrew. 1985. The Indian game of Snakes and Ladders, Artbus Asiae, Vol.46, No.3. pp.203-226.
41) Levey, Martin. 1966. Medieval Arabic Toxicology: The book on Poisons of ibn Wahshiya and Its Relation to Early Indian and Greek Texts, Transactions of the American Philosophical Society, New Ser., Vol 56, No.7, pp 1-130.
42)Â Ernst, Carl W. 2003. Muslim Studies of Hinduism? A Reconsideration of Arabic and Persian Translations from Indian Languages, Iranian Studies, Vol. 36, No.2 pp. 173-195. A list of all known titles and manuscripts of Indian texts translated into Arabic is found in Fuat Sezgin. 1969 Geschichte des arabischen Schrifttums, Leiden. E.J.Brill.
43)Â Bernel, Martin. 1991. Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization, Vol. 1: The Fabrication of Ancient Greece 1785-1985, Vintage.
44)Â Said, Edward W. 1978, Orientalism Western Concept of The Orient, Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd; Inden, Ronal B, 1990. Imagining India. Cambridge, Ma: Blackwell; Joseph, George Gheverghese. 2000 (2nd Edition). The Crest Of The Peacock-Non European roots of Mathematics, Penguin Books, London.
45)Â Raju C.K. 2007. Cultural Foundation of Mathematics The Nature of Mathematical Proof and the Transmission of the Calculus from India to Europe in the 16th c. CE, History of Science, Philosophy and Culture in Indian Civilization Gen.Edt.D.P. Chattopadhyaya Vol.10 part 4. Published by PEARSON Longman.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ancient Indian History - ramana - 07-17-2009
Thanks Dhu!
Here is Joseph Jacobs book on Indian Fairy tales.
Read in particular his Preface and the Notes section where he discusses the origins of the folklore literature of Europe and Africa.
So not only the Chinese but the "West" owes a great debt of imagination to the Indics.
We had a thread on Indian folklore and transmission. We need to cross post these two posts there.
Ancient Indian History - ramana - 08-07-2009
X-posted...
<!--QuoteBegin-Hauma Hamiddha+Aug 1 2009, 03:59 PM-->QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ Aug 1 2009, 03:59 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
<!--QuoteBegin-ramana+Jul 31 2009, 03:34 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ramana @ Jul 31 2009, 03:34 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
HH, dhu and acharya, What are the chances that the Ionians (Yavanas) were the descendents of Anu, son of Yayati by Sharmistha? recall that Yayati had five children of whom Puru was the ancestor of the Kuru Panchalas. Another son was Turvasu who might have been the ancestor of the north Persians or Turks?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Greeks, Indians and Iranians definitely had a shared development for sometime after Balto-Slavic split away from Indo-Iranian. This has linguistic support. However, Talageri's idea of finding all the Indo-European peoples (from Indians to Greeks to Germans to Tocharians) among the pa~nchajana is unsupported by the available data. It becomes even more incongruous with his OIT model which many Hindus who wish to avoid abhyAsa and do tyAjana of sAmAnyamati find attractive. There is really nothing linguistically or textually (i.e. from Greek sources or early vedic sources) supportive of Greeks coming from anu or druhyu. Only the itihAsa-purANa mention the descendants of turvasu as yavana-s but do not tell us how they were linked to the yavana-s.
We note from paurANIc genealogies that:
1) the turvasha-s, anu-s and druhyu-s are not greatly elaborated beyond the early generations. Even the name turvasha is mangled as turvasu and druhyu as drahyu.
2) The yadu-s, ikShvAku-s and pUru-s are greatly elaborated in terms of genealogies.
3) The RV remembers the anu-s and druhyu-s but does not see them as very intimately linked to the core. It however remembers the yadu-s and turvasha-s as closely associated. But by the time of the mahAbhArata and purANa-s only the yadu-s are prominent with the turvasha-s falling out.
So it appears that few if any turvasha-s, anu-s or druhyu-s made it into inner India to make any major impact. It appears that the various bAhya-s were eventually identified with the descendants of the turvasha-s, anu-s and druhyu-s. Now as to your question of did they contribute to tribes in the borderland or outside greater India?
Turks are not an Indo-European people unlike Iranians who are the closest linguistic sister group of Indo-Aryans. Their origins were also in Mongolia. So we can leave them out. It is quite possible that some of the Iranian tribes included some successors of anu -- on this point Talageri is perhaps correct. The mAdra-s and kekaya-s could have indeed been borderland tribes associated with the Iranians. sharmiShThA herself could have been an Iranian. But the degree to which these tribes participated in the core Iranian developments is unclear (e.g. Talageri-s Median-mAdra synonymy).
[right][snapback]100065[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, ramana
Ancient Indian History - Guest - 08-19-2009
<!--QuoteBegin-dhu+Jul 13 2009, 12:04 PM-->QUOTE(dhu @ Jul 13 2009, 12:04 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe any theory is just a fashion and a matter of arguments, luck and support. Before the European colonised the world, no Indian believed they came from elsewhere, nor was there any gap between people from Iran to India. (this changed when the people tried to wipe out their pre-Muslim past)
After becoming part through England of an European way of thinking, India was looked upon through classical Roman-Greek and Christian eyes. Of course this had an impressive impact on the minds of both Indian and European. Ideas and habits take time to be rooted, and even more time to be uprooted. (Just try to get rid of a simple annoying habit, it will cause more annoyance)
Now that India tries to get rid of that annoying way of looking upon her culture, she gets an even more annoying reply. Being labeled as 'Hindutva" sounds like a slap on the face for trying to seek for justice and truth. The more sincere researches are put on the same pile with less sincere shouts. And that is a pity.
An academist should look to bare facts. And the fact is that no Aryan invasion is ever proven. It would be more sensical to look at facts as how they are: If any mention of Yavana is in any book, are they really Greeks of Alexandrian age, or are other people mentioned? When the Kashmirian Chronical of Kalhana mentions a Kanishka who ruled over Kashmir and midwestern India, it doesn't mean that he is the Kushana king of roundabout 80 AD or so. For, Kalhana calls that Kanishka a Turushka Shaka! And his reign was before the Gupta Age!
<b>
Another fanciful hypothesis is the equation of Xandrames-Sandrocottos-Amitrochates with Dhana Nanda-Chandragupta-Bindusara Maurya. </b>The more logical equations are <b>Candra(mas) Gupta I- Samudra Gupta-Chandra Gupta II (this last is Vikramaditya, the Amitraghata or crusher of enemies, the Shaka tribes).</b>
The Greek historians like Arrianus, Diodorus and Curtius mention facts that agree with a Prakrit play named as Kaumudimahotsava, but also with the description of Vishvaphani in the Puranas and Samudra Gupta (Sa-undra in Prakrit, becoming Sandro in Greek).
It would be very strange for Greeks to meet Mauryas, but not name them, as even Magadha isn't named. They name the Prasii =Prachya). Even more strange is the name Palibothra, which can hardly be a correct Greek rendering of Pataliputra. Palibothra sounds more like Paribhadra, who dwelled on the Ganges.
It is nonsensical for Ashoka to inherite a vast empire of his father from north to south and to reconquer it again. The Kalinga War was more logically the war of Samudra Gupta against a confederacy of Sout-Indian kings as can be deduced from his Allahabad Inscription.
Pliny (VI-21-22-23) says: At the time of Alexander, the Andhras were reputed to possess a military force second only to that of the command of the king of the Prasii.
When was there a military power of Andhras in the Mauryan days? No Mauryan emperor mentions them!
Note that Samudra Gupta was named Ashokaditya, as the Mauryan king was named Ashokavardhana!
In the Manjushrimulakalpa, a Buddhistic work, the description of Samudra Gupta fits well with that of the conqueror Ashoka of the inscriptions.
The Piyadassi Inscriptions are of twofold nature: the ones which belong to Ashoka Maurya and the ones which belong to Ashoka Gupta or Samudra.
The Guptas were (Bhagavata) Hindus, under whose rule many classical works were written. Buddhism was in the more remote areas of western India and Pakistan, where the Bactrian Greeks were (for instance Milinda-Menandros as Buddhist, but Heliodorus becoming a Bhagavata in the Mathura area, part of Guptan Empire).
This means that the Guptas ruled from 329 BC-82 BC and not from 324-550 AD. How could the Guptas rule at a time when the Kushanas were a threat. The Guptas don't even mention Kushanas, but only Shakas!. The last king to defeat the Shakas is Harsha Vikramaditya of the Vikrama Era of 57 BC. Harsha is named as a Guptabhrtya King, which means that he and his father came after the Guptas.
This automatically means that the Mauryas were far earlier in time than now is taught in the history books.
And the ancient history of India is mainly based on the inscriptions of Ashoka! From that anchor is back-dated the birthyear of Buddha, another relative anchor. Om Buddha's date is based the whole Vedic chronology, for Buddha is thought to come after the oldest Upanishads.
The Puranas place the Barhadrathas, Pradyotas-Haryanka, Kalashoka-Shaishunagas, Nandas, Mauryas, Shungas, Kanvas and Andhras before the rise of the Guptas of 329-82 BC. That is a whole block of names with many developments and stories, making the so -called dark or unknown ages more known.
Buddha is to be placed during the Pradyotas-Haryankas, as Mahavira. During Pushyamitra Shunga is to be placed Patanjali's Mahabhashya. That is far older than the third century BC ascibed to this Patanjali. A contemporary of Pushyamitra is Abhimanyu of Kashmir who crushed the Turushka Shakas, who ruled with their kings Hushka, Jushka and Kanishka (different from the Kushana of post 78 AD).
This demonstrates that the chronology of the traditional AIT school is not correct as is presented.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->About the Guptas
The Imperial Guptas ruled from 329-82 BC. The names of Xandrames and Sandrocottos/Sandrogyptus tally with Chandramas Gupta and Samudra Gupta, but also de deeds Samudra and the so called Ashoka.
The Imperial Guptas are descended from the barber (possibly Karaskaras-the later Kakkar, who lived from Panjab/Multan towards Sind and Baluchistan), Ghatotkacha Gupta.
The names of this dynasty are these:
Chandra Gupta
Samudra Gupta
Chandra Gupta II Vikramaditya (who succeeded his weak brother Rama Gupta->Shaka episode)
Kumara Gupta I
Skanda Gupta
Puru Gupta
Budha Gupta
Narasimha Gupta
Kumara Gupta II = Vainya Gupta?
Vishnu Gupta = Bhanu Gupta?
The Guptas of the second period ruled after the fall of the Kushanas (whose power was paralyzed by the Sassanian Arya of Persia), supremely from ca. 320-570 AD, and their power declined after ca. 570 AD:
Krishna Gupta
Harsha Gupta
Jivita Gupta I
Kumara Gupta I
Damodara Gupta
Mahasena Gupta
Madhava Gupta
Kumara Gupta II
Adityasena
Deva Gupta
Vishnu Gupta contemporary of Harsha and Pulakeshin
Jivita Gupta II
The confusion is understandable because of duplicate names. Moreover when the Guptas speak of foreigners as invaders, we have to be very cautious about which ones related to which Gupta or other Indian power. We have also to take into account what other power is present in the neighbourhood of the subcontinent, like the Sassanian and Kushana kings in AD and the Shakas in BC. The Chinese mention the movements of the tribes of Yueh Chih (Kushana) which tallies with AD chronolgy. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[right][snapback]99644[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was reading the "The Age of Imperial Unity" by RC Majumdar et al when I came across this eye opening discussion.The above post especially moved the ground under my feet in terms of what I am reading right now.The timeline for the Mauryas as per Majumdar et al is from 324 BCE - 187 BCE.Came across the link to Shri Achars dating of the Mahabharata which dates the Mauryas from 1535 - 1219 BCE.Is there any chronology in the puranas in terms of years for each king of the Muarya dynasty and what would be a good resource to read about the Puranas in terms of chronlogies and dynasties?
Is there a good resource of information for the Sungas,Kanvas and Andhras?
Where can I find the time of the Saka invasions assuming their extirpation by Samrat Vikramaditya ( Chandragupta II?) in 57 BC.Age of Imperial unity is particluarly vague on this point.According to it Sakas were overtaken by the Kushanas .This all falls into a ditch if the timelines are wrong.Can someone shed light on this?
IS there an authoritative translation of Rajatarangini?
The book also has a snapshot description of politics,life of common people etc.Again I am in a quandry wether to take it as a reliable source.Is there a more comprehnsive and accurate source for life of the common people in the last centuries of BCE?
Someone in the previous posts has also suggested that there is a possiblity Satkarni could be Vikramaditya.How feasible is this theory?
My thanks to all the posters on this thread for enriching my knowledge.
Ancient Indian History - ramana - 08-21-2009
There is a book "Political History of India from Parikshit to Later Guptas" by H Ray Chaudhri. Its on internet archive texts. Its written before Independence. Rediff sells a reprint. I think I had linked it in the books thread.
I think HRC's events are true but dating is off. No one ever contemplated India could predate ME antiquity.
Ancient Indian History - acharya - 08-31-2009
http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/aug...hna-existed.htm
<b>
Lord Krishna existed. School texts are wrong'</b>
Last updated on: August 29, 2009
Did Krishna exist?
Most certainly, says Dr Manish Pandit, a nuclear medicine physician who teaches in the United Kingdom, proffering astronomical, archaeological, linguistic and oral evidences to make his case.
"I used to think of Krishna is a part of Hindu myth and mythology. Imagine my surprise when I came across Dr Narhari Achar (a professor of physics at the University of Memphis, Tennessee, in the US) and his research in 2004 and 2005. He had done the dating of the Mahabharata war using astronomy. I immediately tried to corroborate all his research using the regular Planetarium software and I came to the same conclusions [as him]," Pandit says.
Which meant, he says, that what is taught in schools about Indian history is not correct?
The Great War between the Pandavas and the Kauravas took place in 3067 BC, the Pune-born Pandit, who did his MBBS from BJ Medical College there, says in his first documentary, Krishna: History or Myth?.
Pandit's calculations say Krishna was born in 3112 BC, so must have been 54-55 years old at the time of the battle of Kurukshetra.
Pandit is also a distinguished astrologer, having written several books on the subject, and claims to have predicted that Sonia Gandhi would reject prime ministership, the exact time at which Shankaracharya Jayendra Saraswati would be released on bail and also the Kargil war.
Pandit, as the sutradhar of the documentary Krishna: History or Myth?, uses four pillars -- archaeology, linguistics, what he calls the living tradition of India and astronomy to arrive at the circumstantial verdict that Krishna was indeed a living being, because Mahabharata and the battle of Kurukshetra indeed happened, and since Krishna was the pivot of the Armageddon, it is all true.
You are a specialist in nuclear medicine. What persuaded you to do a film on the history/myth of Krishna? You think there are too many who doubt? Is this a politico-religious message or a purely religious one?
We are always taught that Krishna is a part of Hindu myth and mythology. And this is exactly what I thought as well. But imagine my surprise when I came across Dr Narhari Achar (of the Department of Physics at the University of Memphis, Tennessee, in the US) and his research somewhere in 2004 and 2005. He had done the dating of the Mahabharata war using astronomy.
I immediately tried to corroborate all his research using the regular Planetarium software and I came to the same conclusions. This meant that what we are taught in schools about Indian history is not correct.
I also started wondering about why this should be so. I think that a mixture of the post-colonial need to conform to western ideas of Indian civilisation and an inability to stand up firmly to bizarre western ideas are to blame. Also, any attempt at a more impartial look at Indian history is given a saffron hue.
I decided that I could take this nonsense no more, and decided to make films to show educated Indians what their true heritage was. The pen is mightier than the sword is an old phrase but I thought of new one: Film is the new pen.
Any ideas I have will receive wide dissemination through this medium.
I wanted to present a true idea of Indian history unfettered by perception, which was truly scientific, not just somebody's hypothesis coloured by their perceptions and prejudices.
Ancient Indian History - Bharatvarsh - 09-05-2009
A 4000 year old Leperâs Tale
http://varnam.org/blog/2009/09/a-4000-year-old-lepers-tale/
Ancient Indian History - acharya - 09-21-2009
http://www.indus-civilization.info/index.html
http://www.indus-civilization.info/nobel-p...-for-india.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoPHVRP00rk
Ancient Indian History - dhu - 09-30-2009
<b>Lost city could be Gujarat's womb: Archaeologists</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->AHMEDABAD: Gujarat historians are thrilled at the<b> discovery of a four-km long fortification south-west of Taranga Hills, comprising Jogida,
Shamalia and Dhagolia, in Mehsana district</b>. It was discovered in May this year and kept a closely guarded secret by the state archaeology department. <b>They have all the reasons to believe that this could be the city of Anarthpura, the fabled land of warriors and the possible origin of Gujarat.
</b>
It is sheer coincidence that the fortified city in Taranga is in Mehsana, 20 km from Vadnagar, from where Chief Minister Narendra Modi hails, and is estimated to date back to the third or fourth century BC. Early references of this city talk about Anartha, Anarthapura or the Giri Durga of Anartha.
One of the first archaeological records of the town Anartha (meaningless), is found in Junagadh rock inscription (150 AD) of Mahakshatrapa Rudradaman. In this inscription, the region of present north Gujarat has been referred to as Anartha. It was spread over an area more than that of Vadnagar and established as a well planned hill fort town from its beginning.
Another reference is the records by Maitraka rulers of Valabhi, dated between 505 AD and 648 AD, especially those of land grants to the Brahmins of Anarthapura and Anandapura simultaneously. Most of the scholars believed that both the terms were used for Vadnagar. James M Campbell in 1896 asserted that the oldest Puranic legend regarding Gujarat appears to be that of the holy king Anartha. The Mahabharata frequently refers Anartha and Anartaka.
"By the middle of the seventh century, Anarthpura was a forgotten name. This fact is also supported by the records of Huien Tsang who visited Anandapura (O-NAN-TO-PU-LO) in 641 AD. However, most of the scholars believed that the terms Anarthapura and Anandapura were used for Vadnagar. Therefore, in the light of the recent finding and the fort walls, the matter requires re-examination," said senior archaeologist of the state archaeology department YS Rawat.
"It is possible that the unconventional shape of the fort could have been responsible for naming the whole region as Anartha. Archaeological findings also reveal that it could have been then the only landmark in the whole of the north Gujarat. Vadnagar then could have been an ancillary settlement of it," said Rawat.
With the development of agriculture, trade and commerce, the small settlement of Vadnagar which was located in the plains of the north Gujarat prospered rapidly and ultimately transformed into a centre of greater socio-economic activities due to its geographical setting that was more suitable to meet the requirements of increased population. The ancient Anarthapura hill town seems to have been lost into oblivion.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ancient Indian History - Guest - 09-30-2009
Does Ishwa post here anymore ?
Ancient Indian History - Guest - 10-03-2009
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/33138769#33138769
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science...on-mystery.html
<b>Jurassic egg hoard in India 'could hold clues to dinosaur extinction mystery'</b>
A massive hoard of fossilised eggs found in India, being hailed as a "Jurassic treasure trove" could help explain the mystery of how the dinosaurs became extinct, scientists believe.<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Geologists uncovered hundreds of clusters of the football-sized eggs by chance while investigating the site of an ancient riverbed in the state of Tamil Nadu.
The eggs, estimated to be 65 million years old, were found in layers suggesting that it was a major nesting site for leaf-eating sauropod dinosaurs, who returned to the same spot year after year.
Scientists are investigating why the eggs, which were all unhatched, were apparently infertile.
Significantly, they were found coated in traces of ash, prompting speculation that volcanic activity over several years could have caused the creatures to die out.
The site was discovered by chance when a team of geologists from Periyar University, visited the area searching for a suitable spot to excavate the riverbed.
They were resting by a stream near a village in Ariyalur district when they noticed a series of sandy holes containing unusual spherical objects.
"Soon we found them in clusters and realised that these might have been nests," said MU Ramkumar, head of the university's geology department.
Photographs were sent to other universities for confirmation that they were dinosaur eggs. Investigations subsequently showed that the nesting site extended over more than a square mile.
News of the discovery comes just days after Dr Xu Xing, the fossil hunter often dubbed Chinaâs Indiana Jones, unveiled the remains of four-winged dinosaurs being hailed as âmissing linkâ finally proving how the prehistoric creatures evolved into birds.
The five fossils recently found in the tiaojishan and daohugo rock formations in China are estimated at between 164 and 158 million years old, outstripping the oldest known bird, archaeopteryx.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ancient Indian History - Guest - 10-15-2009
<b>Giant Impact Near India -- Not Mexico -- May Have Doomed Dinosaurs</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Sankar Chatterjee of Texas Tech University and a team of researchers took a close look at the massive Shiva basin, a submerged depression west of India that is intensely mined for its oil and gas resources. Some complex craters are among the most productive hydrocarbon sites on the planet. Chatterjee will present his research at this month's Annual Meeting of the Geological Society of America in Portland, Oregon.
âIf we are right, this is the largest crater known on our planet,â Chatterjee said. âA bolide of this size, perhaps 40 kilometers (25 miles) in diameter creates its own tectonics.â
By contrast, the object that struck the Yucatan Peninsula, and is commonly thought to have killed the dinosaurs was between 8 and 10 kilometers (5 and 6.2 miles) wide.
<b>It's hard to imagine such a cataclysm. But if the team is right, the Shiva impact vaporized Earth's crust at the point of collision, leaving nothing but ultra-hot mantle material to well up in its place. It is likely that the impact enhanced the nearby Deccan Traps volcanic eruptions that covered much of western India. What's more, the impact broke the Seychelles islands off of the Indian tectonic plate, and sent them drifting toward Africa.</b>
<b>The geological evidence is dramatic. Shiva's outer rim forms a rough, faulted ring some 500 kilometers in diameter, encircling the central peak, known as the Bombay High, which would be 3 miles tall from the ocean floor (about the height of Mount McKinley). Most of the crater lies submerged on India's continental shelf, but where it does come ashore it is marked by tall cliffs, active faults and hot springs. The impact appears to have sheared or destroyed much of the 30-mile-thick granite layer in the western coast of India.
The team hopes to go India later this year to examine rocks drill from the center of the putative crater for clues that would prove the strange basin was formed by a gigantic impact.
âRocks from the bottom of the crater will tell us the telltale sign of the impact event from shattered and melted target rocks. And we want to see if there are breccias, shocked quartz, and an iridium anomaly,â Chatterjee said. Asteroids are rich in iridium, and such anomalies are thought of as the fingerprint of an impact</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ancient Indian History - Guest - 01-21-2010
[url="http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/01/15/2793625.htm"]Temple discovery reveals clues of Indonesia's past[/url]
Quote:The temple was found on the grounds of Yogyakarta's Islamic University as workers probed the ground to lay foundations for a new library, and they realised the earth beneath their feet was not stable.
Digging soon revealed an extraordinary find: three metres underground were still-standing temple walls. Heavy rains then exposed the top of a statue of the god Ganesha in pristine condition.
A few weeks into the excavation, archaeologists are declaring the temple and its rare and beautiful statues an important discovery that could provide insights into Indonesia's pre-Islamic culture.
![[Image: r499032_2628382.jpg]](http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201001/r499032_2628382.jpg)