Thanks for taking my point of view in right way. As regards my response to killings of hindus. Well I know the secular problem too well. They have been howling from the top of there voice at gujrat but nothing happens to those hapless kashmiris. So the problem of desensitisation to hindu problems are way too much. The challenge to india and hindus from islamists is not even acknowledged by our secular people( kashmir problem is a terrorial problem and not a islamic jihad). In no untold terms should it be expressed as a problem of islam which has killed thousands of people in kashmir of which the worst hit are kashmiri pandits, ironic and immediately gujrat becomes the biggest every ethnic cleansing.
Of all the hypocrisy this thing takes the cake. Kashmiri pandits are languishing in jammu without basic aminities but all the media attention of seculars goto Muslim Peronal Law, there haz subsidy and all those problems.
So as i said lets get down to it, lets expose them. Lets expose these bastards by not becoming islamists but by setting up systems of truly secular credentials. Where a spade is called a spade. Where an islamic jihad is not called a freedom struggle. Lets get down to business. By saying that muslims are bad does not solve the problem, by pointing at there ghettos those ghettos will not go away, we have to work and expose it. There is the deobandi madarass in UP. How much analysis and research has gone into looking into such hate spewing institutions. I have read Arun Shourie's book on fatwas and there history. It is a great source and also a great method to expose them. I know the ghettos. I have lived in Ranchi for 15 years and know the feeling of even going through hindpidi, a muslim majority region. And you know why these regions have become so, because congress has not been secular. It has not taken to task those people who create and spread hatred. So lets expose that. Lets expose the literature. The secular media will not print it. Somebody else will and in todays environment of global war the public perception can be taken along with this thing.
We can and should fight for what we want and not driven by our adversaries agenda, and as a reactionary way to just counter them and in turn finish ourselves. We should know what we cherish and want and then expose. As regards my approach being bookish or impractical. Generally some of the best political theories have come first from book. The greatest example is the booklet written by gandhi on hind swaraj. He wrote it in 1908 and implemented it latter with improvisation. All major political movements have been initiated by small think tanks which latter became movements and phenomenon. Indeed the congress movement also started as an intellectual exercise which became the lifeline of indian political movement. Without theory there is no practise. The only difference is that either the theories are well researched and thought out or not researched and hence loose steam midway.
Abhishek
Secular is only related to Christianity, nothing to do with Hindus or India.
In India politician had very funny concept about secularism, and gullible Indians don't understand and follow Lalu's secularism.
For Indian politician anything BJP is communal and Muslim leaque or Congress is Secular.
http://www.theabsurdreport.com/id304.html
An interesting interview. The problem is not with Muslims. The problem is Islam and the tyranny of Islam under which they live.
Also, http://www.faithfreedom.org
In the lower portion of the faith website, a woman, completely covered in a black chador is characterized as an 'awrat, (lit. pudendum, genital). Is the same word AURAT we refer to females in India. Does awrat in urdu translates to what the article refers to a pudendum or a genital. Please, somebody help me. If it is true, I shall ask forgiveness from God and try to find an appropriate hindi/sanskrit word for woman is.
What does "Stree" mean? Thanks.
Separately, on the same website, one of the buttons "leaving Islam" will lead you to this website http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/A...lakamy50521.htm
Are these photos for real?
{I emailed to Lord Dholkia in the UK who has been enquiring about killings of minorities in Bangladesh to investigate the killing of this helpless hindu by Muslims.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Are these photos for real?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes they are.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What does "Stree" mean?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Woman
Rajesh, Yes, Islamism is an ideology, but it thrives in a democratic and multicultural society because of legal infirmities in the system.
Muslim personal law keeps the hold of mullahs on the muslim society intact. Even supreme court has asked the govt many times to bring forth a single civil law in the country.
If one single civil law is enacted in the country then a lot of steam will go out of Islamist agenda.
But despite having a single civil law, britain and other european countries are facing the islamism problem. An open society can't selectively restrict some groups, unless it demands everyone to have some reciprocal commitments.
Say, if a hardcore islamist doesn't believe in secularism, then why should his rights under secular portions of the constitution be protected?
We must have reciprocity clauses. A citizen's rights should not be absolute. They should depend upon his/her commitment to those ideals. After all we restrict a criminal's rights.
So if a mullah doesn't believe in secularism, then he should not be able to extract advantages from secularism related Indian laws.
Idea of reciprocity can be extended in international sphere too. If Indian citizens are denied some rights in a country, then that country's citizens corresponding rights in India can be restricted too. The beauty of reciprocity clause is that it doesn't explicitly targets any groups or countries. If every country in the world enacted such reciprocity laws, Saudis will find it impossible to step out of their desert kingdom. If I go to Saudi Arabia and my Gita or picture of ganesha can be thrown in the trash by the customs, let the Saudis have the same treatment meted to their religious artifacts and books when they visit other countries.
The problem with solving the whole Islamism problem through law and order is there are things that laws can never prevent, for example what law are u going to make preventing Muslims from becoming majority (and anyone who says that there is nothing wrong with Muslims becoming majority is an idiot), no law can prevent that, if people are thinking about passing the 2 child law then we should also think about its consequences such as female infanticide (which is already a very serious problem in Punjab, Haryana etc) and the law also curbs personal rights by restricting the number of kids a couple can have, that is the reason why I say that law and order can never completely solve the whole Islamism problem. It's easy to talk about implementing UCC but when its implemented I will guarantee that the whole of India will be in flames due to Muslim rioting and no law and order can prevent those riots and counter rioting by Hindus.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ashok Kumar+Aug 11 2005, 08:23 PM-->QUOTE(Ashok Kumar @ Aug 11 2005, 08:23 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Rajesh, Yes, Islamism is an ideology, but it thrives in a democratic and multicultural society because of legal infirmities in the system.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If there is any distinction between definitions terrorism, (if there is not, let me make one <!--emo&:lol:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='laugh.gif' /><!--endemo--> )- Rational and Irrational Terrorism.
Whether or not we agree with the above characterizations, suffice to say that the any politically motivated behavior and subsequent acts can be both rationally understandable and discernible (even if disapproved) so that it permits a calculated response and be amenable to some resolution via normal processes - law and order, etc etc. IOW, these can be (behaviors and causal factors for such acts) can be remedied or removed. Ok, if not removed, it can be controlled, atleast the negative aspects and the fall out can be contained.
Irrational terrorism (that is coupled and primarily motivated with Religion/Marxism), is more disturbing by its very nature, and because of the ramifications for governments and individuals alike. These people thrive on abusing these very systems, that people are proposing to use, to solve these problem... They abuse the ideas of - Human Rights, Democracy, Pluralism, Multiculturalism, Freedom of speech, religion, etc. etc.
How can old "law and order" work in dealing with Irrational people and irrational terrorism? Won't we need new "law & order" systems?
It is as useless as having discussions with Mullah to have him re-interpret Quran. I am still waiting to see how solved this problem either in theory or practice in the real world in the last 1400 years, since Islam came about. Theories are ok, but a little bit of "real world" realism won't hurt <!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
K.ram,
All ethics is based on reciprocity. do unto others...
Yes we need new laws. But a simple clause for reciprocity in law will go a long way in helping with many of these issues.
Even irrational terrorists will feel an awakening jolt if the irrationality is reciprocated.
Open democratic societies are under attack from opportunistic and subversive elements like islamists and marxists that use the system for their own benefit when it suits them, but would work to subvert the system whenever an opportunity presents.
Open democratic societies have to demand 'reciprocity' from such elements.
Why should someone qualify to run in an election when his party's guiding manifestos are openly anti-democratic?
Why should someone who is utterly intolerant on religious matters be given benefits under the religious protection sections of our laws?
Why should saudis be allowed to donate to muslim causes in India to build mosques or fund madrassas, if hindus can't fund temples or hindu religious orgs in Saudi arabia?
Say, if reciprocity clause existed, and my efforts to donate to build a Ram temple in Saudi arabia were rejected by Saudi authorities, then I could file a PIL and demand under the reciprocity laws that Saudi donations for mosque building in India be stopped. Currently it is not feasible to stop such donations from the saudis.
Legally it should be possible to incorporate reciprocity requirements in the law. If the religious/cultural/minority organizations show themselves as hypocrites, at least their organization's benefits/accreditations etc can be challenged in a court. Currently they sit happily in their cocoons enjoying all the benfits of the open democratic societies, while biding their time for subversion.
Of course ideological battles are not only fought through law and order. Individuals and organizations will and should continue to do their part in the ideological battle. But legal backing helps a lot. IMDT wasn't repealed even after so many agitations and ideological posturing. But was repealed because it couldn'tr stand the law.
Sounds like a thorough professional!
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I emailed to Lord Dholkia in the UK who has been enquiring about killings of minorities in Bangladesh to investigate the killing of this helpless hindu by Muslims. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>Thank you for your email.
I will take up the matter with the Foreign Office in London.
Kind regards
XXXXX Dholakia</i>
<!--QuoteBegin-Ashok Kumar+Aug 12 2005, 12:48 AM-->QUOTE(Ashok Kumar @ Aug 12 2005, 12:48 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Even irrational terrorists will feel an awakening jolt if the irrationality is reciprocated.Â
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ashok kumar,
I wasn't speaking to reciprocity issue, and I agree with every issue you raise, but
This is what I was meaning to convey.
I also believe that a big propoganda war should be unleased. Many people in India donot know the truth of Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or Arab World. They donot know the truth of quran and also islamism. Inorder to draw support for such a reciprocity law the first step towards this thing should be propoganda to bring out the complete truth about the brutality of islamism and the brutality inside arab world.
Here with research into all the conditions of this idealogy should be completely brought out. With respect to pakistan still in india, indian media does not call it an islamic terrorism or a jihad which is being fought against india. Strangly enough pakistani media calls it a jihad but indian media does not want to put the truth upfront. As it will jolt all the people. Talk to a normal guy and he does not know about it.
London today has been able to put up such strong laws to counter the threat becuase of strong propoganda that was unleased after 9/11. That prolonged coverage to the phenomenon called islamism created great public opinion and also great support instantly among british people to get all the harsh laws required to deal with islamists.
I believe that we on the right should unleash a propoganda which will drown the secular media once and for all.
We should bring out with bigger truth, the fact of bombay bomb blast, the motivation behind it. We should bring out the truth behind madarssas education. Sting operations(something like tehelka), bigger and regular coverage and keeping those b@st@rd seculars under tremendous pressure to keep on defending this dirty islamism.
But the most important thing should be to create public awareness to the religious orthodoxy and extremism that it breeds and hurts india in no untold terms. The liberals who try to hide all this by talking about mutual respect should be exposed by actually showing to the people that what seculars are protecting is not mutual respect and secular values or individual liberty but fundamentalism, medievalism and orthodoxy and brutality.
The most important thing in a war is support. The moment you loose support you loose the war. The support of a substantial people is required to show the finger to your adversary. It is true of any social, political or cultural system. And support to gained by bringing out harsh truth and big coverage with better presentation and communication skills. Only truth is not important, the communication of truth is also important.
Abhishek
Good discussion abhishek, k.ram, Reggie, Ashok etc.., please keep it going.
All your posts to this thread eventually as it deals with the secularism debate. We want to keep this thread for posts/discussion to Godhara riots.
Thanks in advance.
This article symbolises what i want to call as a eye opening exercise to all indians in general. Our media tirade against islamists and exposing of there agenda is very important.
http://us.rediff.com/news/2005/aug/13guest1.htm
We should write mainstream account with complete documentation of facts and make the secular media squirm and make them accept the fact about genocide being perpetrated on hindus. Being secular does not mean that you will not look into the grave problems that hindus are facing in the subcontinent.
Abhishek
I think what we need is --- (I know it has been said 'n' number of times before)
1. Common Civil Code aka Uniform Civil Code
2. Equal Respect of all Religions - Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Jains, .. all.
3. Common laws for all citizens - be it an Indian Hindu, Indian Muslim, Indian Sikh, Indian Christian, and for that matter any one who lands in India as an Immigrant.
4. Laws of the land shall prevail.
5. Intellgence system to improvise.
**** These were specific to Gujarat and can be applied to all India
Following are a MUST for us to move ahead in the world :-
6. Defence budgets to give more allocations to Technology.
7. India's IT supramacy to be recognised and India should devise laws for Cyber Crimes. India shoudl act as a MODERATOR to IT of the world.
8. Identify our enemeies and stratgic alloances for a "Chanakya" style politics.
I want comments & replies.
<!--QuoteBegin-k.ram+Aug 14 2005, 04:26 AM-->QUOTE(k.ram @ Aug 14 2005, 04:26 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> RIOTS : Comparision between Rajive Gandhi and Narendra Modi <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks k.ram fopr such a nice comparison. Certainly, even I was not aware of some facts.
Let me humbly request how do i accept the comparison????.
How do i accept that two wrongs make a right???. One wrong does not make the other wrong a right. Does it???. Sikh massacre was a burtal wrong and so was gujrat riots. Let us ensure that nothing like godhra ever ever happens, or ethnic cleansing of kashmiri pandits. The deterrance system and the fear of a strong and complete political backlash should be so strong that these islamists are never able to even dream of even pulling of something 1/10th of the magnitude. To allow first a crisis to develop and then react is reactionary. To prevent a crisis like godhra to ever happen(though it can never be ensured, but the magnitude and frequency can be reduced) we have to create a complete systematic deterrance system through a concerted attack on political, media, societal front. This will not allow these islamists to organise and think of an attack of such a magnitude, they will know that people will get so agitated that it will simply lead to unbound backlash. Just like what right now is happening in US and britain.
We need much much more, than riots. We need a better deterrance system which segregates the chaff from the wheat and target those fundamentalists and then just excute them.
Abhishek
<!--QuoteBegin-mrvesta+Aug 14 2005, 01:57 PM-->QUOTE(mrvesta @ Aug 14 2005, 01:57 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> I think what we need is --- (I know it has been said 'n' number of times before)
1. Common Civil Code aka Uniform Civil Code
2. Equal Respect of all Religions - Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Jains, .. all.
3. Common laws for all citizens - be it an Indian Hindu, Indian Muslim, Indian Sikh, Indian Christian, and for that matter any one who lands in India as an Immigrant.
4. Laws of the land shall prevail.
5. Intellgence system to improvise.
**** These were specific to Gujarat and can be applied to all India
Following are a MUST for us to move ahead in the world :-
6. Defence budgets to give more allocations to Technology.
7. India's IT supramacy to be recognised and India should devise laws for Cyber Crimes. India shoudl act as a MODERATOR to IT of the world.
8. Identify our enemeies and stratgic alloances for a "Chanakya" style politics.
I want comments & replies. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Common Civil Code/UCC is immpossible to implement in reality as it requires some 2/3 majority in both houses to have it in constition permanently. I dont see it coming anytime soon. Other than that, how much Sullah Law is directly affecting our life at the stage, we can put this on back burner for little more while and get our internal mess cleaned up first! Recent fight in sangh was very painful and we need a permanent solution for that first on high priority.
2) WTF is with all this equal equal crap? I am HINDU, I am SUPREME! I will bury a sullah with my bare hands if he comes even close to being equal to me! DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU SAAR!
5) What exactly you would like to see as improment in INTELLEGENCE SYSTEM? What you think is not there and are you sure about it? Would like to hear more about it from you.
6) Defense budget actually should be cut, freaking mantris and upper level officers are worthless craps who are good for doodoo! They cant make proper baraks or reinforced posts for poor soul dumbfooled soliders but they can definately spents billions on building lavishing golf courses for themself and tennis courts for their aged fat-arse bhenji-type-aunti-looking-ugly-saggy-over-makeuped-wifees.
INDIA's Defense budget = $20 Billion is too much given there is hardly any major purchase. In last 15 years, the only big purchases I can recall is,Sukhois, T-90s, Phalcon, and a rusty crusie turned CVV with some 10-20 Mig29Ks for a total cost of no more than 10 Billon Dollars in total. While the Defense budget for last 15 years was more than 150 Billion dollars.
7) India and IT Supramacy? eh kem karo cho, tame kasu maloom nathi pati boss.? smell the coffee, india doesn't control even 2% of IT. All we provide is cheep crap low end call center and some coding crap. You become IT Supramacy, when you control the highest number of patents in this industry, you are the biggest buyer and seller in the industry, you have the headquarters of majority of fortune 500, 1000, 2000 or even 5000 companies.
8) Well if you still dont know who the enemies are and in search of identifying them! Kya karu mei tumhara.. boss if you have said you are from bihar, bengal,kerela, i would have understand if you had any confusion, but gujarat...i will need to call modi and arm twist him for not doing the job perfectly!
9) U wanted commments and replies, you asked for it, you have them now <!--emo&:grenade--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/grenade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='grenade.gif' /><!--endemo-->
dont mind anything.. it is sunday early morning.. i am in mood of kicking..after having a dream of marinating a sullah for 24 hours in lemon and curd mix and than stuffing him with some crispy pork chops and grilling him on low heat for 6 hours for my pat cheetah!! <!--emo&:devil--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devilsmiley.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='devilsmiley.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:devil--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/devilsmiley.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='devilsmiley.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-abhishek_d+Aug 14 2005, 02:39 PM-->QUOTE(abhishek_d @ Aug 14 2005, 02:39 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Let me humbly request how do i accept the comparison????.
How do i accept that two wrongs make a right???. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This conclusion is a moral judgement based on an <b>unqualified </b>normative claim. Going by this line of thinking, whole legal system should go out the window as "two wrongs never make a right"
Abhishek,
For someone who can slice and dice the "propaganda" and the see through the secular crap to reach and understand the <b>truth</b>, am a bit surprised that you fell for "Godhra Massacre and Genocide" claims of the so called truthbearers, and actually advocate some collective "hindu guilt". How do you sqauare that?
Reciprocity law etc all good ideas but only "theories & talk": We are not even able to introduce, let alone enforce, a common civil law in our own country, how do you expect a "Reciprocity law" come to pass with other countries? Sure, London introduced strong laws right after the "jolt". India has perpetually been in jolts, yet, we come up with unique ways to justify the inaction & call it Moral High Ground of good natured yindoos conscious of international opinion or sh$t like that.
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