<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+Dec 23 2005, 01:30 AM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Dec 23 2005, 01:30 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->This image of India was not its own traditional self-image; nor had it any relation with historical facts. However, such an image was deliberately built up during the 19th century by the efforts and encouragement of the British; of theoreticians of the West; and through the policies and institutions initiated by the Brit-ish Indian State. The newly emergent elite in Bengal, as also many others, were instrumental in taking this image forward. For instance, Ram Mohan Roy was opposed tooth and nail to the idea that modern learning and science be learnt through the medium of Sanskrit and other Indian languages. He somehow had been con-vinced that these Indian languages could be the vehicle only of ancient codes and speculations on the world beyond; and that Western knowledge could only be learnt through languages of the West. This was indeed a peculiar position. The Westerners them-selves obtained knowledge of India and the East in their own languages; but India was to learn the knowledge of the West only through the language of the West. Surely, behind such a view, was a feeling of deep contempt for the Indian languages, the Indian intellect and the Indian people. Of course this is not to imply that people like Ram Mohan Roy had any hatred for the Indian people, or lacked patriotism. Quite possibly they had been lured by the power of the West, and felt that Indiaâs salvation lay in becoming like the West. Only their understanding of the West lacked any depth.
Around 1880, Keshav Chandra Sen declared in England:
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->If you look at India today you will no doubt find widespread idolatry, a system of caste such as cannot be witnessed elsewhere, social and domestic institutions of an injurious character, and prejudices, error, superstition and ignorance prevailing to a most appalling extent.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Around 1900, Rabindranath Tagore wrote:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Our country having lost its links with the inmost truths of its being, struggled under a crushing load of unreason, in abject slavery to circum-stances. In social usage, in politics, in the realm of religion and art, we had entered the zone of uncreative habit, a decadent tradition, and ceased to exercise our humanity.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The promotion and extension of an intellectual climate with a peculiar combination of self-pity, self-condemnation and at the same time decrying the self-image of India in the fulfillment of European goals thus became, perhaps inadvertently, the job of men like Rabindranath Tagore. Such promotion ultimately led to the growth and duplication of Westernised personalities like that of Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru.
Due to their faith in theories of the progressive evolution of consciousness, persons like Jawaharlal Nehru, saw the highest stage of thought in the Western thinkers and the highest stage of society in Western society. Hence, it was that the education organised by the British was, for Jawaharlal Nehru, the only possible route to knowledge and virtue. He, therefore, could argue that there can be neither virtue nor knowledge amongst our villagers amongst whom the new education system had not spread. So he conceived that a major function of the state, with him at the helm, and run by Western educated Indians (though their Westerni-sation may have belonged to Europeâs 19th century), was to liber-ate the crores of Indians from a state of ignorance and moral degeneration; and convert them into the sort of people cherished by William Wilberforce or Karl Marx.
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A 2 child policy cannot be forced. Look at China's sex ratio.
01-28-2006, 05:37 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2006, 05:43 AM by Bharatvarsh.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->yes and the solution isnt 5 kids per hindu family but to have a uniform civil code and prevent the camel jockeys from breeding like rabbits.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How does UCC prevent Muslim population growth?, polygamy is not the reason that the Muslim rate of growth is so high, even with one wife they have more kids. Further more people among Hindus (if you include the tribals) practice polygamy even though it is illegal for Hindus than among Muslims so how come Hindu population is still slipping? and the female male sex ratio among Hindus and Muslims are close 931 per 1000 for Hindus 936 per 1000 for Muslims so even if Muslims want to be even more polygamist they can't be because of female shortage.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->as for whay bengal was partioned - thats cos the english wanted to weaken the one province from which the real (ie. un gandhian) major anti-pom battle was waged.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whether the British wanted to weaken Bengal or not is immaterial here, the prime reason for partition again was the fact that Bengal was Muslim majority so naturally according to partition logic East Bengal went to Muslims.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->as to how bengal became a muslim majority state - a combination of reasons. bengal basically had the brahmhinical storoghold of Gour and a lot of lower caste people (artisans, farmers, dhakai muslin silk weavers etc) - who converted to islam en-masse. the rest is the same old story of how islamics believed in having as many wives and kids (legit and ill-legit) as possible so that the dar-ul-harb would be over run by the children of islam. for a good account read the last chapter of Nirad C Choudhury's "the east is east and the west is west" where he talks about the hindu-muslim problem in india with a h-u-g-e list of references and allusions to prove his points. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bengal may have had a brahminical stronghold or whatever stronghold but its an outright lie to claim that Bengal went to Muslim majority because of conversions, as late as 1800's Bengal was still Hindu majority, then Bengal came under British influence and Hindus caught the disease of family planning while the Muslims continued to have as many kids as they could and finally gained majority, lets look at post partition scenario, during partition Muslims were 23% and now they are over 30% and heading to 40%, there is no Brahminical stronghold anymore and still whole states are on the way to becoming Muslim majority, in Kerala till until 1961 Muslims were about 17%, now they are 23% and heading to 33%, all this when Muslims are more wealthy and control politics and dominate Kerala more than Hindus and even have almost the same literacy as Hindus. No one will implement UCC in the near future, those who bank on police, military and laws to protect them from Muslims are fools. Here is a quote from "Religious demography of India" by M.D Srinivas:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In 1901, Indian Religionists formed 33.9 percent of the population of Bangladesh; their proportion declined to 29.6 percent in the forty years from 1901 to 1941
http://esamskriti.com/html/new_essay_page....id=156&count1=2<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So in a mere 40 years Hindus went down more than 4% in East Bengal, till 47 riots there was no major exodus of Hindus into West Bengal so the 4% was mainly lost due to Muslim overbreeding, that is how Bengal became Muslim majority, by 1800's Muslim power had vanished and Bengal was still Hindu majority so demographic war by Muslims was the main reason that it became Muslim majority.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->by imposing a no-exceptions 2 child policy for one and all - a la china.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And look at the sex ratio in China, India is a democracy so it can't impose any such thing.
so whts the solution to our staggering population??
we should get into a breeding match with the camel jockeys??
better would be to enforce uniform civil code, and impose 2 child policy, with a lot of incentives for parents who choose to draw the line at one daughter/2 daughters/one son and one daughter. under no circumstances should anyone be allowed to have more than two kids, hindu or not, muslim or not, tribal or not.
Quote:as for whay bengal was partioned - thats cos the english wanted to weaken the one province from which the real (ie. un gandhian) major anti-pom battle was waged.
Whether the British wanted to weaken Bengal or not is immaterial here, the prime reason for partition again was the fact that Bengal was Muslim majority so naturally according to partition logic East Bengal went to Muslims.
sorry beg to differ.
bengal was partioned to weaken bengal so that the pom stay in india could be prolonged. lord curzon if i recall right, did it, when all other pom tactics to quieten bengal failed.
there were parts of india which were also muslim majority - say the gulbarga-bijapur rejoin of karnataka or the muzzafarabad region of bihar - the poms found no reason to carve up tose states along religious lines though.
when they - the poms - decided to weaken bengal by partioning it - they did it logically - gave the muslim majority part to muslims and hindu majority part to hindus - the added advantage (for poms) being that it would not just divide the province physically but along religious lines as well and the united opposition to poms would be weakened.
Quote:as to how bengal became a muslim majority state - a combination of reasons. bengal basically had the brahmhinical storoghold of Gour and a lot of lower caste people (artisans, farmers, dhakai muslin silk weavers etc) - who converted to islam en-masse. the rest is the same old story of how islamics believed in having as many wives and kids (legit and ill-legit) as possible so that the dar-ul-harb would be over run by the children of islam. for a good account read the last chapter of Nirad C Choudhury's "the east is east and the west is west" where he talks about the hindu-muslim problem in india with a h-u-g-e list of references and allusions to prove his points.
Bengal may have had a brahminical stronghold or whatever stronghold but its an outright lie to claim that Bengal went to Muslim majority because of conversions, as late as 1800's Bengal was still Hindu majority, then Bengal came under British influence and Hindus caught the disease of family planning while the Muslims continued to have as many kids as they could and finally gained majority,
[/quote]
yes thats 1800 - from 1800 to 1915ish is about 4 generations. muslims breed exponentially, in geometric progression.
i see nothing wrong in falling for the "western" (as you call it) disease of family planning.
small families are happy and prosperous families, anywhere in the world.
that muslims have as many kids as thay can is one of the major reasons that they are the poorest people in the world (aside of oil rich muslims), not the least in the poverty striken country of bangladesh.
brahminical stronghold = gour. all gsbs are brahmins identically.
india's BIGGEST problem today is our polulation.
<!--QuoteBegin-rajesh_g+Jan 28 2006, 05:25 AM-->QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Jan 28 2006, 05:25 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->A 2 child policy cannot be forced. Look at China's sex ratio.
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china should have imposed one child policy with a certain degree of flexibility, so as to prevetnthis lopsided sex ratio.
maybe we shoudl draw the line if the first child is a male child.
and allow the parents to have 2 kids if their first born is female.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->so whts the solution to our staggering population??
we should get into a breeding match with the camel jockeys??<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly India is not tremendously overpopulated, that is a western myth, the population density of Japan and South Korea is more than India and yet they are much more prosperous, naturally since India is a much larger country it will have a much bigger population, our country has over 50% arable land, if proper agricultural methods are used we can feed double the size of the current population, next the cause of poverty is not population but mainly socialism and Communism, look at Gujarat and Orissa, Gujarat has a much higher population growth but is one of the most prosperous states while Orissa has a much lower pop growth and still one of the poorest states in India.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->better would be to enforce uniform civil code, and impose 2 child policy, with a lot of incentives for parents who choose to draw the line at one daughter/2 daughters/one son and one daughter. under no circumstances should anyone be allowed to have more than two kids, hindu or not, muslim or not, tribal or not.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said no one will implement UCC in the near future, Muslims don't obey laws anyways so even if all these are passed on paper they will never have much effect on Muslims but foolish Hindus will follow them to the T and commit demographic suicide, a society that can't have more kids will never be able to stop Muslims when they reach critical mass by fighting street to street riots.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->yes thats 1800 - from 1800 to 1915ish is about 4 generations. muslims breed exponentially, in geometric progression.
i see nothing wrong in falling for the "western" (as you call it) disease of family planning.
small families are happy and prosperous families, anywhere in the world.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol small families are happy, yes yes, see the happiness of East Bengali Hindus, they are literally swelling up with tears since they are so happy to be raped by Muslims and harassed everyday.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->that muslims have as many kids as thay can is one of the major reasons that they are the poorest people in the world (aside of oil rich muslims), not the least in the poverty striken country of bangladesh.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And the poverty stricken Muslims will halaal the quality Hindus once they reach critical mass just like they did in East Bengal and Lebanon and Pakistan.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->india's BIGGEST problem today is our polulation. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indias biggest problem is socialism and nut case politicians who dont' know how to manage resources and thus cause poverty.
[quote=Bharatvarsh,Jan 28 2006, 06:26 AM][quote]yes thats 1800 - from 1800 to 1915ish is about 4 generations. muslims breed exponentially, in geometric progression.
i see nothing wrong in falling for the "western" (as you call it) disease of family planning.
small families are happy and prosperous families, anywhere in the world.[/quote]
lol small families are happy, yes yes, see the happiness of East Bengali Hindus, they are literally swelling up with tears since they are so happy to be raped by Muslims and harassed everyday.
well you can stop being sadistic about the plight of the hindus (at least on this forum!!) who have been unfortunate enough to have been economically raved by 200 years of colonialism and then have been cut off from their brethern. you never had to go through a cent of that - you wont be able to empathise. its easy to sit in your cosy armchair and laugh at their plight - wait till it happens to you.
[quote]that muslims have as many kids as thay can is one of the major reasons that they are the poorest people in the world (aside of oil rich muslims), not the least in the poverty striken country of bangladesh.[/quote]
And the poverty stricken Muslims will halaal the quality Hindus once they reach critical mass just like they did in East Bengal and Lebanon and Pakistan.
we should get those hindus back in india. sort of like isreal gives a right of passage to every jew, we should allow every hindu stuck in pakistan and bangladesh to return. cant sit and watch them get slaughtered.
[quote]india's BIGGEST problem today is our polulation. [/quote]
Indias biggest problem is socialism and nut case politicians who dont' know how to manage resources and thus cause poverty.
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resources cant keep growing forever. there's only so much of it.
read thomas malthus.
Sorry have to bail out of this for now. I suggest we keep all the demographics stuff in the demographics thread. Its in strategic forum. Thanks.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bharatvarsh+Jan 28 2006, 06:22 AM-->QUOTE(Bharatvarsh @ Jan 28 2006, 06:22 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->so whts the solution to our staggering population??
we should get into a breeding match with the camel jockeys??<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly India is not tremendously overpopulated, that is a western myth, the population density of Japan and South Korea is more than India and yet they are much more prosperous, naturally since India is a much larger country it will have a much bigger population, our country has over 50% arable land, if proper agricultural methods are used we can feed double the size of the current population, next the cause of poverty is not population but mainly socialism and Communism, look at Gujarat and Orissa, Gujarat has a much higher population growth but is one of the most prosperous states while Orissa has a much lower pop growth and still one of the poorest states in India.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->better would be to enforce uniform civil code, and impose 2 child policy, with a lot of incentives for parents who choose to draw the line at one daughter/2 daughters/one son and one daughter. under no circumstances should anyone be allowed to have more than two kids, hindu or not, muslim or not, tribal or not.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like I said no one will implement UCC in the near future, Muslims don't obey laws anyways so even if all these are passed on paper they will never have much effect on Muslims but foolish Hindus will follow them to the T and commit demographic suicide, a society that can't have more kids will never be able to stop Muslims when they reach critical mass by fighting street to street riots.
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true - popultion densitywise india is ahead of japan holland and korea and others.
yet a population of 2 billion isnt funny - and is tough to manage.
and if muslims will not obey UCC or if itst ever imposed they should be sanjay gandhi-ed. same with the tribals with their ghatol systems and polygamy. with tribals the problem is worse, since the missionaries add fuel to the fire with their anti-abortion crap.
Guys,
800 years of muslim rule and 200 years of pom rule could not wipe out Hindus from Hindustan.
Bharatwarsh I agree that population is a problem. But it is more due to illiteracy among muslims. Look at the progressive muslims like Abdul Kalam Azad (poor guy is still a bachelor) and Sania Mirza family (two sisters only).
On the other hand, macho khans from bollywood are breeding like rabbits with hindu girls and booting them out after having a few kids (aamir khan, saif khan,) all of them have married hindu girls and divorced them.
Today Hindus are the 3rd largest religious group in the world in spite of 1000 years of colonial rule and subjugation. Today we are 800-900 millions and spread all over the world.
Kuch baat hai ki hasti yeh mittati nahi hamari
daure rahan hai dushamn sara jahan hamara
The problem of muslims is total subjugation of women. They just don't have any say whatsoever with the sword of talaq talaq talaq hanging over their neck. Unless women get more educated there is no hope for population control in muslims.
May be you need another Sanjay Gandhi style treatment to control population (you know what I mean....any Gandhi with b*lls today ???)
how about a sanjay gandhi on muslims, illeterate rural hindus and such like.
selective sanjay gandhi.
Guys
Pls maintain thread discipline. Demographics in demographics thread.
Ok I will be replying to this stuff in the demographics thread.
Can someone at a Uty get hold of this article?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Orientalist Constructions of India
Ronald Inden
Modern Asian Studies, Vol. 20, No. 3 (1986) , pp. 401-446
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In this he is trying to establish the basis of South Asia studies as opposed to Indology studies.
Below is last letter of petition from Bhagat Singh to Governor of Punjab (British Rule), before he was executed.
************************************************** *********
To
The Punjab Governor
Sir,
With due respect we beg to bring to your kind notice the following:
That we were sentenced to death on 7th October 1930 by a British Court, L.C.C Tribunal, constituted under the Sp. Lahore Conspiracy Case Ordinance, promulgated by the H.E. The Viceroy, the Head of the British Government of India, and that the main charge against us was that of having waged war against H.M. King George, the King of England.
The above-mentioned finding of the Court pre-supposed two things:
Firstly, that there exists a state of war between the British Nation and the Indian Nation and, secondly, that we had actually participated in that war and were therefore war prisoners.
The second pre-supposition seems to be a little bit flattering, but nevertheless it is too tempting to resist the desire of acquiescing in it.
As regards the first, we are constrained to go into some detail. Apparently there seems to be no such war as the phrase indicates. Nevertheless, please allow us to accept the validity of the pre-supposition taking it at its face value. But in order to be correctly understood we must explain it further. Let us declare that the state of war does exist and shall exist so long as the Indian toiling masses and the natural resources are being exploited by a handful of parasites. They may be purely British Capitalist or mixed British and Indian or even purely Indian. They may be carrying on their insidious exploitation through mixed or even on purely Indian bureaucratic apparatus. All these things make no difference. No matter, if your Government tries and succeeds in winning over the leaders of the upper strata of the Indian Society through petty concessions and compromises and thereby cause a temporary demoralization in the main body of the forces. No matter, if once again the vanguard of the Indian movement, the Revolutionary Party, finds itself deserted in the thick of the war. No matter if the leaders to whom personally we are much indebted for the sympathy and feelings they expressed for us, but nevertheless we cannot overlook the fact that they did become so callous as to ignore and not to make a mention in the peace negotiation of even the homeless, friendless and penniless of female workers who are alleged to be belonging to the vanguard and whom the leaders consider to be enemies of their utopian non-violent cult which has already become a thing of the past; the heroines who had ungrudgingly sacrificed or offered for sacrifice their husbands, brothers, and all that were nearest and dearest to them, including themselves, whom your government has declared to be outlaws. No matter, it your agents stoop so low as to fabricate baseless calumnies against their spotless characters to damage their and their party's reputation. The war shall continue.
It may assume different shapes at different times. It may become now open, now hidden, now purely agitational, now fierce life and death struggle. The choice of the course, whether bloody or comparatively peaceful, which it should adopt rests with you. Choose whichever you like. But that war shall be incessantly waged without taking into consideration the petty (illegible) and the meaningless ethical ideologies. It shall be waged ever with new vigour, greater audacity and unflinching determination till the Socialist Republic is established and the present social order is completely replaced by a new social order, based on social prosperity and thus every sort of exploitation is put an end to and the humanity is ushered into the era of genuine and permanent peace. In the very near future the final battle shall be fought and final settlement arrived at.
The days of capitalist and imperialist exploitation are numbered. The war neither began with us nor is it going to end with our lives. It is the inevitable consequence of the historic events and the existing environments. Our humble sacrifices shall be only a link in the chain that has very accurately been beautified by the unparalleled sacrifice of Mr. Das and most tragic but noblest sacrifice of Comrade Bhagawati Charan and the glorious death of our dear warrior Azad.
As to the question of our fates, please allow us to say that when you have decided to put us to death, you will certainly do it. You have got the power in your hands and the power is the greatest justification in this world. We know that the maxim "Might is right" serves as your guiding motto. The whole of our trial was just a proof of that. We wanted to point out that according to the verdict of your court we had waged war and were therefore war prisoners. And we claim to be treated as such, i.e., we claim to be shot dead instead of to be hanged. It rests with you to prove that you really meant what your court has said.
We request and hope that you will very kindly order the military department to send its detachment to perform our execution.
Yours, etc.
Bhagat Singh
Raj Guru
Sukhdev
We salute these heroes who never cared about their lives when our motherland reqired it.Our heart get filled with pride when we see their fearlessness and their unselfish attitude.thanks ami for bringing it to readers.
But it is so sad how they were betrayed by connivers of british rule,references are so clear to have any one in any doubt,even today no one is allowed to openly discuss their double role play and a mythical aura is created around them.
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