Pre-modern Warfare:India And Elsewhere

ramana · 03-29-2006, 03:48 AM

rytha, Why dont you write the Tamil word for the 'automatic' bow in English and save us the agony?
First the tamil word in english and then its meaning.

03-29-2006, 08:09 AM

QUOTE(rhytha @ Mar 29 2006, 03:10 AM)Hmm..liam i just visited your site, under "Siege Weapon Types in Other Cultures" you have mentoned "South Asian" instead of "Indian" and listed all the weapons which where used in ancient India, south asian is a term which is used from pakistan to indonesia, and since there is harldy anyÂ weapon from other culutres plz change it to Indian since else its very misleading.
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Hi,

South Asian usually refers to Pakistan, Indian, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and all the other Islands in the Indian Ocean. Indonesia etc. belong under South East Asia.

I think it is aptly named because it captures all the catapults invented in the region (but unknown to the Chinese which is what the section is about). Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and the other islands never invented catapults. Whatever they used was borrowed from somewhere else. India constitutes the bulk of what is East Asia and if nationalistic pride is your concern, then imagine if you will a Pakistani who picks up the book upon seeing the word South Asian and reads only on Middle Eastern and Indian catapults with Pakistan adopting only the former. The other reason why South Asian is apt is simply because quite frankly, I don't know who invented these catapults. Weren't most Indian Heroes from the Ramayana/Mahabarata from the north, which includes parts of what is now Pakistan? The only clear reference is the Mahashilakantaka by the Magadhan empire, but then again the Empire also included Bangladesh.

I'm also labelling them in terms of regions, with the exception of the Japanese and Greco-Roman for two very different reasons. I cannot use East Asia to cover the Japanese for obvious reasons. I could have used Mediterranean for Greco-Roman but that would include parts of the Middle East and more importantly the Ayyubid dynasty which invented the hcw trebuchet. The title Greco-Roman is also more commonly used and therefore recognisable by western catapult enthusiast, a point very important if my book is to sell well in the US and the UK.

03-29-2006, 08:28 AM

QUOTE(rhytha @ Mar 29 2006, 01:22 AM)No hasti is a sanskrit word, in tamil elephant is "YAnaI".

Oh ok thanks. I don't know tamil or sanskrit so you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong. I got this from the Cologne Online Tamil Lexicon where it lists hasti=elephant.
QUOTEIn silapadikaram(an ancient tamil classic), this is what it says where the weapons in madurai fort

- an automatic bow and arrow

Any details? Pre-islamic invasions?

QUOTEvarh (v) (sanskrit)- hinder, conceal
varahÌ£ (sanskrit_â the biggest or most powerful
varah (sanskrit)- occasion, oppurtunity


This is what I got for varaka

1 (mwd) varaka 1 m. a cloak L. ; n. cloth L. ; the cover or awning of a boat L.
2 (mwd) varAka mf(%{I})n. wretched , low , miserable , pitiable (mostly said of persons) Ka1v. Katha1s. &c. ; vile , impure (as money) Katha1s. ; m. (only L.) N. of S3iva ; battle , war ; a kind of plant.
3 (mwd) varaka 2 m. one who asks a female in marriage S3a1n3khGr2. ; a wish , request , boon MBh. ; N. of a prince VP. (v.l. %{dhanaka} and %{kanaka}) ; Phaseolus Trilobus L. ; a kind of rice L. ; = %{parpaTa} or %{zara-parNikA} L.
4 (mwd) vAraka m. a <b>restrainer , resister , opposer</b> , an obstacle MBh. ; a kind of vessel Hcat. ; a person's turn or time (%{-keNa} ind. in turn) HParis3. (cf. %{zata-vArakam}) ; one of a horse's paces L. ; a sort of horse or any hÃ±horse L. ; n. a sort of perfumed or fragrant grass L. ; the seat of pain (= %{kaSTha-sthAna}) L.

03-31-2006, 07:37 AM

QUOTEWeren't most Indian Heroes from the Ramayana/Mahabarata from the north, which includes parts of what is now Pakistan?

Nope.

03-31-2006, 07:55 AM

QUOTE(k.ram @ Mar 31 2006, 10:07 AM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEWeren't most Indian Heroes from the Ramayana/Mahabarata from the north, which includes parts of what is now Pakistan?

Nope.
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agnivayu · 03-31-2006, 05:55 PM

Above all else, the ancient "South Asians" were Hindu.
And since Pakistani's hate Hindus and Hinduism, the current day settlers can be viewed as Honorary middle easterners or Arabs, and cannot claim Hindu heritage or credit for achievements of ancient Hindus.

QUOTE(Liang Jieming @ Mar 31 2006, 07:55 AM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(k.ram @ Mar 31 2006, 10:07 AM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEWeren't most Indian Heroes from the Ramayana/Mahabarata from the north, which includes parts of what is now Pakistan?

Nope.
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03-31-2006, 08:28 PM

QUOTE(agnivayu @ Mar 31 2006, 08:25 PM)Above all else, the ancient "South Asians" were Hindu.
And since Pakistani's hate Hindus and Hinduism, the current day settlers can be viewed as Honorary middle easterners or Arabs, and cannot claim Hindu heritage or credit for achievements of ancient Hindus.

Well, they can't, if you read what I've written.

03-31-2006, 09:04 PM

Liang Jieming,
South Asian term was created by US state department in early 70s (71,72) to deny Indic civilization/India its due place. It was part of Cold war. Previously, it was called Indian Subcontinent. When you are talking about ancient India or Indic civilization, its better to use term <b>"Indian subcontinent" or "Indic civilization".</b>

Back to thread question.

ramana · (This post was last modified: 09-25-2007, 02:35 AM by ramana.)

Guys, If you can help Liang please do post. Liang asked for help on the subject matter. Instead of helping him our members have dragged in South Asia and all that nonsense. Is Indian identity so fragile that it will break down? Everyone and his brother knows that South Asia term was coined by US 'scholars' to diminish Indian identity but it has not worked.

Dont bring up extraneous issues and drag a useful thread down. Let me ask you a question? How many of you knew of all these topics before he posted?

I can only request as I am not an admin.

03-31-2006, 11:31 PM

QUOTE4. Mayayantra - ?
Maya means illusion
Yantra - device, an apparatus

rhytha · (This post was last modified: 04-01-2006, 12:53 AM by rhytha.)

silapadikaram is not pre-islamic, it older, its dated 3rd centuray AD.

QUOTErytha, Why dont you write the Tamil word for the 'automatic' bow in English and save us the agony?First the tamil word in english and then its meaning.


valinthu thane eyyum einthra vil
{bending itself throwing machinated bow}

i have given word by word translation above.

Actually that para there has lots of machines, when i asked my guys to take a look.

Here is one another

sitraambhukal vaithu ayyum einthram

{small arrows place throw forward machine}

einthram is machine in tamil

one another

nootrou kolli
{hundered killer}

killer of hunderds

ramana · (This post was last modified: 04-01-2006, 02:47 AM by ramana.)

QUOTE(rhytha @ Mar 31 2006, 07:20 PM)silapadikaram is not pre-islamic, it older, its dated 3rd centuray AD.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTErytha, Why dont you write the Tamil word for the 'automatic' bow in English and save us the agony?First the tamil word in english and then its meaning.


valinthu thane eyyum einthra vil
{bending itself throwing machinated bow}

i have given word by word translation above.

Actually that para there has lots of machines, when i asked my guys to take a look.

Here is one another

sitraambhukal vaithu ayyum einthram

{small arrows place throw forward machine}

einthram is machine in tamil

one another

nootrou kolli
{hundered killer}

killer of hunderds
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Perfect. Nootru kolli seems to be same as shatagni. Again hundred killer.

einthram is like yantra for machine.

I guess vil is bow same as villu in Telugu.
vaithu is throw like veyatam in Telugu

To me it looks like the vil tells us its large bow type machine to shoot an arrow type projectile. There are examples of them from the Romans. Could be similar to kaantaka described by Liang. Is there any description of the vil beig used? Like lodaing the projectile and what it did? How many men it required to operate it?

Also the nootru kolli seems to be a different machine than the sitraambhukal machine.

Is there any clarification about the nootru kolli? Like how was it operated or the hero did this with it and its effects were like this? You get the picture. Was there any fire referenced in the same para?

So essentially all these are nomenclature for seige engines. Now if Silapadikaram has them in the early 3rd cent AD these must have been prevalent for some time and could have originated earlier. I say this as the poet assumes familiarty with these seige engines for the reader. So they must be sometime older.

I think the Mahabharata and the epics contain many descriptions but since they were written by literary figures it is up to us to figure out what is the message.

04-01-2006, 03:17 AM

I had forwarded this query to someone and here's the response:

QUOTELook in the areas of Jala-tantra, Vaastu, Dhanurveda, Astra vidya
Â Â
Namaste

1. Manasollasa is a later work <i>(this is pertaining to other thread by fred_ml so ignore it here.. - Viren)</i>

2. The mechanical war machines are mentioned in the ancient works of
Ramayana and Mahabharata; Purana's have description of such machines.

3. The design and deployment of such machines needs to be looked in the
works related to 'Vaastu-Tantra', the upaveda related to Atharva shastra.

4. The present Vasstu studies know of mainly the buildings, land scape. The
older tradition of Matanga, Maya dealing with the water engineering, Fort
constructions, weapons management for the army of the kings- seem to have
been lost or needs exploration. The fascinating tradition of 'astra-vidya'
weapons of war fare' in the Hindu traditions is a research area. The messing
up of this study has been due to the shrouded discussions related to
'iron-horse-chariot-sword' and the like. The exploration of the metallurgy
of ancient India, non-iron weapons, weapons of words (Mantra-astra
/Dhanurveda) pose dimensions of great challenge. With the existing
understanding of Veda as 'nomads poetry of a certain land and period in a
PIE language' is not going to unravel the secrets of
mind-matter-consciousness energy related transformations.

5. As long as one relies on the 'free-bi's' for such investigations there
will be no progress. The interested should bring in resources to support
study and investigation with the right sources. The study ending up as a
fancy book and a 'Video reconstructed by explanations' for a channel is not
going to make any relevance. If there is an Indian/Hindu model like that of
Templeton foundations who get serious with an investment in the dimension of
religious sciences research, the progress can be seen here.

6. Several crore's is being sunk in the hope of finding a model of 'weapon'
like that of the 'Sudarshana chakra' deployed by Sri Krishna in the Purana's
/Bahrata. The result is a ending up with 'Satsung' than any tangible
material lab related work. On the contrary, Defense strategists are
systematically exploring the issues of Mind-Matter transformation based on
the details in the Vedic traditions for deployment in the global
applications of defense, communications, health benefits and the like. The
two models are very clear.

Regards

ramana · 04-01-2006, 09:15 AM

I am sorry that the matter was referred to the above person. He must be in a different dimension. I have read far and wide but cant make out what he says.
An enthusiast has come here askig for help on translations and he is asking for grants to study sudarsana chakra? Isnt that way above our pay grade.

**Hauma Hamiddha** · 04-01-2006, 12:46 PM

This is definitely a topic of interest that has received little attention amongst Hindu resesarchers in recent times. One may look into works of Gustav Oppert (a Jewish scholar) for some early systematic research into Hindu armament. It is not as though Hindu weaponary, especially ballistas, is not described in detail-- one just needs to know where to look for them. I will just give a few pointers below. Later on when I have more time I could go into greater details like the sanskrit verses.

Some points:
- it is shataghni = hundred killer ghna= kill.
- it is not as if pre-Islamic Hindus did not have ballistas and that they were introduced during the Arab invasion.
- In fact the main Moslem raiders of India describe native fireworks and ballistas as being extensively used by the Rajputs and that they were a deterant against the seiges. Note elsewhere on this site how the Rajputs deployed a ballista to kill Nusrat Khan the general of Alla-ad-din Khalji.

Some texts describing ballistas:
1) mahAbhArata- oldest and clearest source.
2) samarangaNa sUtra dhAra of rAja bhoja- provides engineering details of the yudddha yantras
3) kAlachakra tantra- provides descriptions of some of the weapons used in the kali yuga.
4) shukra nIti.

Examples:
(See chapter 156 of the udyoga parvan of the mahAbhArata, gAnguli edition for convenience)

A mangonel built from wood with a short throwing arm hurling the missiles: oil, heated sand, earthern pots filled with pulverized lac, and pots filled with poison. The lac pots were provided with plugs of wax [and were clearly used as incendiary bombs]. They are mentioned as having a metal frame, with platforms of cane and levers like plough poles. Another projectile hurled by these machines is described as a wooden mallet with iron spikes embedded in it. Missiled wrapped in cloth steeped in oil are also mentioned and might be another kind of incendiary weapon.

Stiffened leather screens are described in the same chapter as shields against the ballistas hurled by these above yantra. The same chapter also mentions a syringe like spraying yantra that sprayed boiling water and heated oil.

In chapter 155 of the droNaparvan we find ghaTotkacha deploying one such ballista on ashvattAman. It was used to hurl pots filled with lac, shattering balls of iron called thunas, stones and spiked balls. This chapter also mentions that he deployed the shataghni and the ashani on ashvattAman. The ashani is less clear in description but is said to have 8 wheels that propel and is said to reduce chariots to ashes on impact.

In descriptions of the wars of the Rajputs the hot sand weapon is found, suggesting it persisted until a much later era.

**Hauma Hamiddha** · 04-01-2006, 01:01 PM

shataghni appears to be one of the oldest of the more involved hindu weapons. It finds mention in the veda itself in the taittirIya AraNyaka 1.5.1. It is mentioned as agni-jihva or with the tongue of fire. However, explanatory commentary mentions that it was packed with loha kaNTa or iron spikes. In the bhArgava section of the purANas (deployed by kArtavIya against rAmo bhArgava) and the mahabhArata droNaparvan it appears it was used as a ballista. This suggests that it was an incendiary device that fired on being hurled and also spewed iron spikes.

04-02-2006, 03:33 PM

With my rudimentary knowledge of Sanskrit, I can't do better than what other members here in interpreting the siege warefare terms from Sanskrit text.

Here is my translation/interpretation of all the 'war devices' mentioned in Silapadhigaram (The poem of the anklet) though. Silapadhigarma was written by a Chera prince Ilango Adigal (Circa 2nd to 3 rd Century CE). See this link for Tamil version http://www.intamm.com/m-science/war.htm#3 of the text.

I have tried to transliterate Tamil in to English and provide its English meaning as far as I understand. The blanks and ? indicate it is not complete.

1) Valaindhu thaane eyyum iyandira vil

Bending automatic mechanical bow

2) Kariya viraludya kurangu pola irundhu serndharai kadikkum Pori

A device that looks like a black fingered monkey(!) and bites those who come near it

3) Kallai umizhum kavan

Stone throwing catapult

4) Kaaindhu iraithalal serdhurai varuthum Nei

Dried spreadout(?) contraption(?) that attacks those who near it

5) Sembai urukkum mida
A huge melting pot (?) for copper

6) Urukkaichi a(Y?)rivatharku yekku patirukkum Ulaigal
Melting vessels for throwing iron?/ vessels for thowing molten iron?

7) Kal ittu vaikum koodai
Wicker basket for storing stones

8) Thoondil vadivaaga seidhu vidapattu vaithu madhil yerum yedhirigalai Koothu valikum karuvi

A contraption that looks like a fishing hook which is used to hook the enemy who climbs the fortress wall

9) Kazhukol pol kazhuthil pooti murukkum sangili

A noose like chain device that goes around the neck and twists the neck

10) Aandalaipul vadivaga panni parakavida uchhiyai kothi moolaiyai kadikum pori varisaigal

Categories of contraption designed like a ----, that which flies and hits the top of the head and bites the brain

11) Madhimel yeruvorai meriyathallum irrumbukavai

An iron device (stick?) that is used to push those who climb the fortress

12) Kazhukol, ambukattu

Noose(?) stick/Pivot stick, arrow bundle?

13) Yevaraigal

Contraption that can be sent (?)

14) Sittrambugalai vaithu aiyyum iyanthiram

Machine that is used to release short arrows

<b>Jamadagnya?</b>

15) Madhilin ucchiyai pidipavar kaigali kutthum oosi porikal

Contraption with needles that is used to pierce the hands of those who try to reach the top of the wall

16) Pagaivar mel sendru kannai kothum sechili pori

---- contraption that reaches and plucks the enemies eyes

17) Madhil ucchiyil errinar udalai kombal kizhikka irumbal seidhu vaitha pandri pori

A pig like contraption/capturing iron device with a stick that is used to tear the bodies of those who reach the top of the wall.

<b>Is this Sukarika?</b>

18) Moongil vadivaga pani adipadharku amaitha pori

Bambo like device that is used to hit ---

19) kadhavirku valimayaga ul vayirpadiyil vizhavidum marangal

Wooden beams/pillars in the inside entrace to support the door

20) kanaiya maram

----- tree/wooden pillar

21)Vittaeru

----- (something throwable?)

22) Kundham

-----
23) Ietti

Javelin

24)Nootruvarai kolli

That which kills hundreds

<b>This must be Shatagni</b>

25) Thallivetti

---- (Movable cutter?)

26) Kallitru Pori

Elephant(?) device (to attack elephants?)

27) Vizhungum paambu

Swallowing snake device

28)Kazhugup pori

Eagle contraption/device/machine

29) Pulippori

Tiger contraption/device/machine

30) Kudappaambu

----- snake (water vessel snake!)

31) Sakada Pori

------ contraption

32)Thagar polli

Destroying by collision ----- (Ram like?) [Thagar means destroy by contact]

33) Nyayil (Kurivithalai)

---- (Sparrow head) - Is this a Ram like device too?

Thanks

Venkat Subramanian

04-02-2006, 09:00 PM

Wow, thanks for all the replies! I'll need time to go through all the information since my last post. The catapult descriptions from the Silapadhigaram constitute a section all on its own. Can someone provide a little more information on the Silapadhigaram? It was written ca 2nd to 3rd Century A.D. by Prince Ilango Adigal of Chera?

What was the whole piece about? It was a poem?

Does anyone else have more information to add to the original list of catapults besides the literal translations of the names from sanskrit?

Ramana, thanks for keeping this in focus.

04-03-2006, 01:42 PM

QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ Apr 1 2006, 03:31 PM)shataghni appears to be one of the oldest of the more involved hindu weapons. It finds mention in the veda itself in the taittirIya AraNyaka 1.5.1. It is mentioned as agni-jihva or with the tongue of fire. However, explanatory commentary mentions that it was packed with loha kaNTa or iron spikes. In the bhArgava section of the purANas (deployed by kArtavIya against rAmo bhArgava) and the mahabhArata droNaparvan it appears it was used as a ballista. This suggests that it was an incendiary device that fired on being hurled and also spewed iron spikes.
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Ok, I'v re-edited my page on the Shataghni with this new info as well as to correct the spelling for Shata.

Does the text you have go into detail on how they worked? ie. what principle did they work on, what were their firing mechanisms like, the trigger mechanisms etc.?

Thanks!

ramana · (This post was last modified: 04-03-2006, 11:56 PM by ramana.)

No problem.

Folks, The silapadikaram refs need to be studied in detail as they are historical. I really wish more people were familiar with ancient Tamil. Is there are translation in English available? I recall reading it in Illustrated weekly as serial with verse and text.

Now to H^2 description of shatagni
QUOTEshataghni appears to be <b>one of the oldest of the more involved hindu weapons</b>. It finds mention in the veda itself in the taittirIya AraNyaka 1.5.1. <b>It is mentioned as agni-jihva or with the tongue of fire</b>. However, <b>explanatory commentary mentions that it was packed with loha kaNTa or iron spikes.</b> In the <b>bhArgava section of the purANas </b>(deployed by kArtavIya against rAmo bhArgava) and the <b>mahabhArata droNaparvan it appears it was used as a ballista</b>. This suggests that it was an incendiary device that fired on being hurled and also spewed iron spikes.


One it or a version of it existed for a long time in Hindu epic lore.
Second - It is hurled from a catapult device. Ballista is an arrow type of hurling machine.
Third- it has fire as a constituent
fourth- Its kill mechanism is the iron spikes - loha kanta that are spewed or disbursed.

See all these facts to me Shatagni looks like an ancient version of shrapnel shell that was invented in modern times ~1800s by Henry Shrapnel. Shatagni looks like a ball packed with iron spikes that has a fuse to burst it and the whole thing is hurled from a catapult. I wonder if a smaller version was thrown manually like grenade?

Now a question for the history buffs. Was Henry Shrapnel stationed in India during Sir Willam Jones translation of Hindu scriptures period? Might be independent innovation but I have to ask the question.

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