Pre-modern Warfare:India And Elsewhere

04-04-2006, 01:32 AM

QUOTEAccording to one account, Shrapnel got the idea for his invention while with British forces under siege by the Spaniards at Gibraltar. He noticed that heavy cannon fire aimed at Spanish troops did not kill many of them, while bursting mortar shells killed more. He reasoned that if he could make a cannonball burst like a mortar shell and do it at a cannon's greater range, he could achieve the effect of massed small-arms fire on troops a cannon shot away. He invented a hollow cannonball stuffed with musket balls and loaded with a powder charge just strong enough to break the cannonball open. Set to a timed fuse, the charge, as he envisioned it, would explode and disperse the musket balls in a cone-shaped spray 50 or 75 yards from the target, to which they would continue with killing force derived from the original momentum of the projectile.
.............Link

It wasn't until WW I a century after the War of 1812 that military forces routinely equipped their soldiers with helmets to protect them from shrapnel raining down upon them. The shell adopted by the British in 1803 was designed to be fired from a cannon but as luck would have it another inventive Englishman, William Congreve heard about the shell and adopted it for his project. At about the time the shrapnel shell was adopted by the British artillery Corp the British army in India was fighting a war against the nativesÂ Â link

ramana · (This post was last modified: 04-04-2006, 02:12 AM by ramana.)

It just struck me. What if shatagni was bamboo pole rocket with an iron spikes bursting payload?

It would take off with a tongue of flame - agni jihva. It would spew iron spikes- loha kanta. And this would kill or harm hundreds of bunched up troops.

What is now needed is to see if there are recipes for gunpowder/propelling powder in the Atharva Veda or the assorted military treatises of ancient times? Any refs to powders with sulpher, charcoal or carbon soot and an 'oxidiser' would fit the bill.

ramana · 04-04-2006, 02:15 AM

Mudy, Thanks. It looks like Shrapnel was inspired at seige of Gibraltar and it was Congreve that got inspired by the Mysore rockets. So Shrapnel's idea was his own and not from derived sources related to the East India company.

**Hauma Hamiddha** · 04-04-2006, 08:40 AM

A quick note: The chapters 2.3 and 2.18 of the arthashAstra, respectively on the provisions for fortification and the weapons to be collected by the military superintendent, provide brief accounts of weapons. I append the Sanskrit verses. I will translate later.

2.3.34 tAsu pAShANa.kuddAlAH kuThArI.kANDa.kalpanAH /
2.3.34 buShuNDI mudgarA daNDAsh.h chakra yantra *shataghnayaH* //
2.3.35 kAryAH kArmArikAH shUlA vedhana agrAsh.h cha *veNavaH* /
2.3.35 *uShTra-grIvyo.agni samyogAH* kupya kalpe cha yo vidhiH //

Some points of note here:
-The shataghni is clearly described as a weapon used to defend the fort along with the chakra-yantra or the wheel driven weapon. It is the same chakra yantra described in the kAla chakra tantra.

-A weapon to hurl tridents through the mouth of tubes is mentioned too in the defense of forts.

-Another peculiar weapon mentioned here is the "camel-neck" which supposed to deploy fire around moats.

2.18.05 sarvato-bhadra jAmadagnya bahu-mukha vishvAsa ghAti saMghATI yAnaka parjanyaka bAhu Urdhva bAhv.h ardha bAhUni sthita yantrANi //
2.18.06 pA~nchAlika deva daNDa sUkarikA musala yaShTi hasti-vAraka tAla vR^inta mudgara gadA spR^iktalA kuddAla AsphATima utpATima udghATima shataghni trishUla chakrANi chala yantrANi //
2.18.07 shakti prAsa kunta hATaka bhiNDipAla shUla tomara varAha-karNa kaNaya karpaNa trAsika AdIni cha hula-mukhAni //
2.18.08 tAla chApa dArava shAr~NgANi kArmuka kodaNDa drUNA dhanUMShi //
2.18.09 mUrvA arka shana gavedhu veNu snAyUni jyAH //
2.18.10 veNu shara shalAkA daNDa Asana nArAchAsh.h cha^iShavaH //
2.18.11 teShAM mukhAni Chedana bhedana tADanAny.h Ayasa asthi dAravANi //
2.18.12 nistriMsha maNDala agra asi yaShTayaH khaDgAH //
2.18.13 khaDga mahiSha vAraNa viShANa dAru veNu mUlAni tsaravaH //
2.18.14 parashu kuThAra paTTasha khanitra kuddAla krakacha kANDach ChedanAH kShura kalpAH //
2.18.15 yantra goShpaNa muShTi pAShANa rochanI dR^iShadash.h cha.ashma AyudhAni //
2.18.16 loha jAlikA paTTa kavacha sUtra ka~NkaTa shiMshumAraka khaDgi dhenuka hasti go charma khura shR^i~Nga saMghAtaM varmANi //
2.18.17 shiras.h trANa kaNTha trANa kUrpAsa ka~nchuka vAra vANa paTTa nAga udarikAH peTI charma hasti karNa tAla mUla dhamani kAka pATa kiTikA apratihata balAha kAntAsh.h cha.AvaraNANi //
2.18.18 hasti ratha vAjinAM yogyA bhANDam.h AlaMkArikaM samnAha kalpanAsh.h cha^upakaraNAni //
2.18.19 aindrajAlikam.h aupaniShadikaM cha karma //

The tAla-vR^inta and hasti-vAraka are mentioned here are not ballistas. The tAla-vR^inta is a large bolt with spiked gates that is used to blockade the entry to forts. The hasti-vAraka is a spiked shield used to block charging elephants. I believe the chInas and Mongols also deployed similar blocades.

The sUkarikA and the spR^iktalA are hooks/spikes that are used against legs of men, horses, oxen and elephants. The veNushara is the tube discharged arrow- possibly similar to what the chInas also used.

More later

04-04-2006, 09:49 AM

QUOTEOne it or a version of it existed for a long time in Hindu epic lore.
Second - It is hurled from a catapult device. Ballista is an arrow type of hurling machine.
Third- it has fire as a constituent
fourth- Its kill mechanism is the iron spikes - loha kanta that are spewed or disbursed.

So the shataghni is just a projectile and not a catapult? What was the catapult that threw the projectile then? The chakra yantra?

QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ Apr 4 2006, 11:10 AM)A quick note: The chapters 2.3 and 2.18 of the arthashAstra, respectively on the provisions for fortification and the weapons to be collected by the military superintendent, provide brief accounts of weapons. I append the Sanskrit verses. I will translate later.

2.3.34 tAsu pAShANa.kuddAlAH kuThArI.kANDa.kalpanAH /
2.3.34 buShuNDI mudgarA daNDAsh.h chakra yantra *shataghnayaH* //
2.3.35 kAryAH kArmArikAH shUlA vedhana agrAsh.h cha *veNavaH* /
2.3.35 *uShTra-grIvyo.agni samyogAH* kupya kalpe cha yo vidhiH //

Some points of note here:
-The shataghni is clearly described as a weapon used to defend the fort along with the chakra-yantra or the wheel driven weapon. It is the same chakra yantra described in the kAla chakra tantra.

Any details on the chakra yantra? (Shouldn't it be cakra yantra?)

QUOTE-A weapon to hurl tridents through the mouth of tubes is mentioned too in the defense of forts.
What was this weapon called?

QUOTE2.18.05 sarvato-bhadra jAmadagnya bahu-mukha vishvAsa ghAti saMghATI yAnaka parjanyaka bAhu Urdhva bAhv.h ardha bAhUni sthita yantrANi //

What does it say about the sarvatobharda?

QUOTEThe tAla-vR^inta andÂ hasti-vAraka are mentioned here are not ballistas. The tAla-vR^inta is a large bolt with spiked gates that is used to blockade the entry to forts. The hasti-vAraka is a spiked shield used to block charging elephants. I believe the chInas and Mongols also deployed similar blocades.

The sUkarikA and the spR^iktalA are hooks/spikes that are used against legs of men, horses, oxen and elephants.Â The veNushara is the tube discharged arrow- possibly similar to what the chInas also used.

Ah, I see. So the Talavrinta and hastivaraka are not catapults. Ok, will remove the hastivaraka. It might have been somewhat like this?

<img src='http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6633/miscdoorstopper1gg.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Interestingly, Philostratos who wrote the account of the Greek Alexander's campaigns mentioned the use of a Yantra, which he said worked by means of trumpets and thunder as if from the heavens to drive the Greek army away. I've been led to believe that this was the Talavrinta âClapping Stalkâ that created a tempest to unnerve the enemy. So the Talavrinta is just a door stopper like the hastivaraka?

Any more details of the venushara?

Thanks for your patience. Sorry for all the questions. I just want to get the write-ups on indian catapults as correct as possible before the book is published.

**Hauma Hamiddha** · 04-04-2006, 11:47 AM

In the Itrans transliteration scheme it is chakra- the first 'ch' (as in china) is cha. The aspirate form is written as Ch (Tamil does not distinguish the two). A quick note regarding the chakra yantra. It is described in the chapter 1.150 onwards in the Hindu version, may be slightly different in the bauddha version which has been translated:

The chakra yantras are placed on the fort walls or on towers along fort walls. It has a lower wheel with its rim attached with sharp swords or blades. The wheel has a upper sail that powers the wheel with wind or it is attached to a water wheel. The wheel rotates rapidly cutting up those who come its way.

Etymologically:
tAla- in many modern indian languages means bolt/lock/bar. vR^inta means frame or a spike. So clearly as the commentators state tAlavR^inta was blocade. vAraka root in sankrit going back to proto-Indo-Iranian period is a block. So both were unlikely to be catapults.

The vajra yantra is more likely to match the account of Philostratos. The kAlachakra tantra describes it thus:
"A waving vAta-paTTa (wind-cloth) and a stambha (post) are fastened in one samudra-ashri dhAra ma~Ncha (oceanâcornered platform). Men pull the machine from the back side by the rope, and it makes rocks goes up from the earth. It falls on houses descending like the crash of the vajra (thunderbolt).

If you really want more precise engineering details try to get hold of the yantra chapter of the samarangaNa sUtradhAra of king bhoja deva. Unfortunately I do not have my copy with me here.

04-04-2006, 11:59 AM

QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ Apr 4 2006, 02:17 PM)In the Itrans transliteration scheme it is chakra- the first 'ch' (as in china) is cha. The aspirate form is written as Ch (Tamil does not distinguish the two). A quick note regarding the chakra yantra. It is described in the chapter 1.150 onwards in the Hindu version, may be slightly different in the bauddha version which has been translated:

I tried typing in Chakra into the online sanskrit translator but drew a blank. Cakra however, gives me a disc/circular blade like weapon. Ok then. <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /> What does Chakra translate as then?

If the Shataghni is not a catapult but a catapult projectile, any ideas on the catapult that threw the Shataghni?

QUOTEThe chakra yantras are placed on the fort walls or on towers along fort walls. It has a lower wheel with its rim attached with sharp swords or blades. The wheel has a upper sail that powers the wheel with wind or it is attached to a water wheel. The wheel rotates rapidly cutting up those who come its way.

If I read this correctly, this means that the Chakra yantra wasn't a catapult as well right?

QUOTEEtymologically:
tAla- in many modern indian languages means bolt/lock/bar. vR^inta means frame or a spike. So clearly as the commentators state tAlavR^inta was blocade. vAraka root in sankrit going back to proto-Indo-Iranian period is a block. So both were unlikely to be catapults.

Ok, I think I understand now. So the talavrinta and the hastivaraka were similar.

QUOTEThe vajra yantra is more likely to match the account of Philostratos. The kAlachakra tantra describes it thus:
"A waving vAta-paTTa (wind-cloth) and a stambha (post) are fastened in one samudra-ashri dhAra ma~Ncha (oceanâcornered platform). Men pull the machine from the back side by the rope, and it makes rocks goes up from the earth. It falls on houses descending like the crash of the vajra (thunderbolt).

This really sounds like a lever principled traction catapult. I'm assuming the vatapatta would be a sling of some sort and the dharamancha the catapult pivot frame?

This account from the kAlachakra tantra makes it quite clear that is was a catapult, but the kAlachakra tantra dates to the 10th century A.D. which would be after the Islamic invasions of northern India, so any mention of catapults might have incorporated catapult ideas and principles from the middle east.

QUOTEIf you really want more precise engineering details try to get hold of the yantra chapter of the samarangaNa sUtradhAra of king bhoja deva. Unfortunately I do not have my copy with me here.
[right][snapback]49384[/snapback][/right]

I'll see what I can get from the library. Hopefully it'll be in English. However, King bhoja lived ca. 1000-1055 A.D. after the Islamic invasions so again, any mention of catapults in the samarangana sutradhara from a cursory reading of the text, is not immediately clear that they are of Indian in origin.

Thanks for the help so far. What you've been throwing up is just amazing stuff.

Hauma Hamiddha · (This post was last modified: 04-04-2006, 10:33 PM by Hauma Hamiddha.)

Shataghni is derived from Shata - Hundered and ghni - Killer.
It is not related to agni (Fire) as some have interpreted here and elsewhere

Nootruvar Kolli - Literally translated as Hundered Killer mentioned in Silapadhigaram is in fact Shataghni.

This device may not have anything to do with fire or fire throwing. At least the name does not imply it.

Both Arthashastra and Silapadhigaram mentions that this device is used to protect forts.

QUOTEHauma Hamiddha @ Apr 1 2006, 03:31 PM)
shataghni appears to be one of the oldest of the more involved hindu weapons. It finds mention in the veda itself in the taittirIya AraNyaka 1.5.1. It is mentioned as agni-jihva or with the tongue of fire. However, explanatory commentary mentions that it was packed with loha kaNTa or iron spikes. In the bhArgava section of the purANas (deployed by kArtavIya against rAmo bhArgava) and the mahabhArata droNaparvan it appears it was used as a ballista. This suggests that it was an incendiary device that fired on being hurled and also spewed iron spikes.

taittirIya AraNyaka 1.5.1 talks about agni-jhiva (see http://www.sanskritweb.net/yajurveda/ta-01.pdf) and not Shataghni.

While agni-jhiva is either fire throwing or molten metal flame device (agni-jhiva is used as a term to denote smelters), Shataghni is likely to be a different class of device.

Do you have any other references that indicate Shataghni is fire throwing?

PLEASE CHANGE YOUR ID AS PER FORUM RULES

04-04-2006, 03:34 PM

These are probably non-catapults

- SukarikÄ: According to KauÅ£ilya, SukarikÄ was a huge machine shaped like a pig or bellows. It was made of bamboo rope and hide with cotton inside. It served as a buffer to stop the rolling stones. Often, it was placed on the rampart wall to prevent the enemyâs penetration inside. At SaÅghala, Alexander had witnessed a similar weapon.

- JÄmadganya: This was a sarayantra which worked from behind the defences. Alexander had deployed battering rams against the army of the people of Massaga.

- Deva-daÅda: It was a cylindrical cannon-like object placed on the ramparts and was also known as pratitaroca.

**Hauma Hamiddha** · 04-04-2006, 08:52 PM

[quote=vsubrama001,Apr 4 2006, 03:59 AM]
taittirIya AraNyaka 1.5.1 talks about agni-jhiva (see http://www.sanskritweb.net/yajurveda/ta-01.pdf) and not Shataghni.

Please look at TA 1.5.1 again.

Note that despite the late dates claimed for kAlachakra and known late dates for bhojadeva they were often drawing from far more ancient sources. In the case of the latter the citations to pre-Islamic authorities are clear.

The congruence of names between the arthashAstra weapons and the latter are also suggestive of the early origins.

04-05-2006, 07:47 AM

QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ Apr 4 2006, 11:22 PM)Note that despite the late dates claimed for kAlachakra and known late dates for bhojadeva they were often drawing from far more ancient sources. In the case of the latter the citations to pre-Islamic authorities are clear.

The congruence of names between the arthashAstra weapons and the latter are also suggestive of the early origins.
[right][snapback]49396[/snapback][/right]

The rewriting and insertion of later chapters into old writings is not uncommon, eg. the European Liber Ignium has gunpowder formulas in it's last chapters written ca. 1280 although the work itself spanned well back into the pregunpowder era. It is unfortunate, but some Europeans still claim they invented gunpowder just based on the fact that the Liber Ignium has gunpowder formulas and matching that with the earliest dates of the Liber Ignium writings.

The conguence of names is also sometimes not necessarily a clear indication of direct lineage. eg. the name Hudun Pao (Crouching Tiger Catapult) in China is used by both, a lever-principled traction mechanical catapult as well as a later day gunpowder cannon. If I just traced the name based on the cannon, it would look like cannons existed in China a good 1000 years before they actually arose.

I hope you don't mind my questions.

Does any earlier pre-islamic text exist showing these same or similar catapults? Are there clear references in the kAlachakra that point to an earlier text? Another possible method is to read the sentence structure where these catapults are mentioned, to see if they hint at the weapons being ancient.

What citations does Bhoja quote with reference to the catapults in his writings? A look at these quoted sources would be instructive.

I'm really handicapped in not being able to read the primary sources directly so I hope you'll be patient with me. I don't want to offend anyone here so I hope you won't take this the wrong way. I just need to verify and make clear distinctions between what is known for sure and what is still just speculation before I put in down in print. My apologies if I offend you, not my intention to do so. I hope you understand.

04-05-2006, 08:23 AM

Here's the complete passage from the campaigns of Alexander into northern India.

"...these truly wise men dwell between the rivers of Ganges and Hyphasis. Their country Alexander never entered, deterred not by fear of the inhabitants but, as I suppose, by religious motives, for had he passed the Hyphasis he might doubless have made himself master of all the country round; but their cities he never could have taken, though he had a thousand men as brave as Achilles, or three thousand like Ajax; for they come not out into the field to fight those who attack them, but rather these holy men, beloved of the gods, overthrow their enemies with tempest and thunderbolts shot from their walls. It is said that the Egyptians Hercules and Bacchus, when they invaded India, attacked this people also, and having prepared warlike engines attempted to conquer them; they in the meantime made no show of resistance, appearing perfectly quiet and secure, but upon the enemy's near approach they repulsed them with storms of lightning and flaming thunderbolts hurled upon their armour from above."

04-07-2006, 03:55 AM

According to Arthashastra by L.N. Rangarajan

Mobile Catapult
Asphatima - A mobile Catapult.

Rest are mobile machine
Talavrinta - A machine to raise wind dust
Panchalika - A wooden plank studded with nails and placed in the moat
Sukarika - A leather bag filled with cotton or wool placed around turrets
Hastivaraka - A pike with mulitple points for use against Elephant
Mudgara - Hammer (thrown by machines)
Satagni - A movable pillar studded with nails
Spriktala - Mace with sharp nails
Devadanda - A beam, with or without nails, placed on top of the fort wall.

Fixed machine
Sarvatobhadra - A machine like a cart-wheel for thowing stones.
Jamadagnya - A machine to shoot arrows.
Samghatika - A machine with long poles to set fire to attacking mobile turrets.
Yanaka - A rotating machine to throw logs
Bahumukha - A tower for archers (with many holes to shoot from)
Visvasaghatin - A beam, released by a mechanism, so as to fall on attackers.

04-07-2006, 08:09 AM

Thanks Mudy,

Does the book give more information on these catapults?
1. Asphatima - A mobile Catapult.
2. Sarvatobhadra - A machine like a cart-wheel for thowing stones.
3. Jamadagnya - A machine to shoot arrows.
4. Yanaka - A rotating machine to throw logs

Arthashastra was written ca. 4th century B.C. by Kautilya (ca. 350 - 275 B.C.), Prime Minister to Emperor Chandragupta Maurya and a teacher in the ancient Indian Takshashila university?

04-07-2006, 09:10 AM

QUOTEArthashastra was written ca. 4th century B.C. by Kautilya (ca. 350 - 275 B.C.), Prime Minister to Emperor Chandragupta Maurya and a teacher in the ancient Indian Takshashila university?
Yes,
My book is smaller version of R.Shamasastry and R.P. Kangle version of Arthashastra translation. There are lot of drawing on battle plan and organization but no drawing of Catapults and other weapons.

But in R.Shamasastry or R.P. Kangle version of Arthashastra translation one can find all drawings.

For your query my book had refered verses {10.6.3-8,24,30,34}
and {10.5.3-44}

04-07-2006, 10:08 AM

QUOTE(Mudy @ Apr 7 2006, 11:40 AM)Yes,
My book is smaller version of R.Shamasastry and R.P. Kangle version of Arthashastra translation. There are lot of drawing on battle plan and organization but no drawing of Catapults and other weapons.

But in R.Shamasastry or R.P. Kangle version of Arthashastra translation one can find all drawings.

For your query my book had refered verses {10.6.3-8,24,30,34}
and {10.5.3-44}
[right][snapback]49518[/snapback][/right]

Ah, how interesting! These drawings are original illustrations from the Arthashastra or modern recreations by R. Shamasastry or R.P. Kangle based on the Arthashastra text descriptions?

Are these translations from Sanskrit for those catapult names listed correct? Do you know how they would be translated?

1 (mwd) tima m. = %{-mi} , a kind of whale L. Sch. ; (%{I}) f. a fish L.

1 (mwd) jAmadagnya mfn. belonging or relating to Jamad-agni or to his son Ja1madagnya MBh. i , 332 Hariv. 2313 R. i , 75 , 3 ; m. (g. %{gargA7di}) = %{-gniya} A1s3vGr2. i , 7 Ka1tyS3r. iii , 3 , 12/13 ; Ra1ma (Paras3u.) RAnukr. MBh. iii , vii R. if. BhP. ix ; N. of a Catur-aha Mas3. vii , 5 ; pl. Jamad-agni's descendants Pravar. i.

1 (mwd) yAnaka n. a vehicle , carriage BhP.

04-07-2006, 10:16 AM

QUOTEAh, how interesting! These drawings are original illustrations from the Arthashastra or modern recreations by R. Shamasastry or R.P. Kangle based on the Arthashastra text descriptions?
Not sure. Arthashastra itself is very descriptive, with verses one can draw but I am not sure whether it came from actual Sanskrit text.

QUOTEDo you have the translations from Sanskrit for those catapult names listed as well?
Book is concise version from Sanskrit translation version.

I am in US and don't have access to Kangle or Shamasastry version.

04-07-2006, 11:50 AM

QUOTE(Mudy @ Apr 7 2006, 12:46 PM)Not sure. Arthashastra itself is very descriptive, with verses one can draw but I am not sure whether it came from actual Sanskrit text.

Ah I see. Ok then. Do post more of the descriptions of the catapults when you can? I'm really dying to know how they might have worked.

QUOTEBook is concise version from Sanskrit translation version.

No problem. I just need the translations for the names. eg. Sarvatobhadra is "All Directions Safe or Pacified"

<!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /> Thanks again.

I think with these new catapults Asphatima, Jamadagnya & Yanaka I can probably fill at least another page on Indian catapults for my book.

04-07-2006, 01:10 PM

I've found a copy of Kautilya's Arthashastra (1915 Shamasastry translation)
Book I, "Concerning Discipline"
Book II,"The Duties of Government Superintendents"
Book III, "Concerning Law"
Book IV, "The Removal of Thorns"
Book V, "The Conduct of Courtiers"
Book VI, "The Source of Sovereign States"
Book VII, "The End of the Six-Fold Policy"
Book VIII, "Concerning Vices and Calamities"
Book IX, "The Work of an Invader"
Book X, "Relating to War"
Book XI, "The Conduct of Corporations"
Book XII, "Concerning a Powerful Enemy"
Book XIII, "Strategic Means to Capture a Fortress"
Book XIV, "Secret Means"
Book XV, "The Plan of a Treatise"

QUOTEFor your query my book had refered verses {10.6.3-8,24,30,34}
and {10.5.3-44}
10.6 refers to Book 10 Chapter 6?

04-07-2006, 08:44 PM

QUOTE10.6 refers to Book 10 Chapter 6? 
Sorry, not seen R.Shamasastry or R.P. Kangle version of Arthashastra translation.

It should be in
Book X, "Relating to War"
Book XII, "Concerning a Powerful Enemy"
Book XIII, "Strategic Means to Capture a Fortress"

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