Anti Brahminism

06-26-2006, 07:10 AM

QUOTEWhen we (my grandfather with me) met certain people on the street, they used to stay a few feet away from us, close their mouth and address us. Certain other groups used to go uleleleing on seeing our approach
So it is your family problem and they were indulging in abuse behavior.
But donât label others with same nonsense which your family was practicing.
I must tell you, Brahmin by birth, live all over world, what happen in your village is your local problem?

Why Kashmir Pandit are suffering? Have you done anything for them? Or you hate them because they are Brahmin? Or you don't care because they don't speak Tamil or not from your village?

You should adopt poor and oppressed people and should take care of them.
You should share food with sweepers on same table atleast once in a week and invite them inside your living room.

phantom363,
Change your USER-ID

Bharatvarsh · 06-26-2006, 07:54 PM

QUOTEEven though we speak Tamil at home, why should we not have a majority of the songs in Tamil during the Carnatic concerts? What is wrong with Tamil prayers? It is things like this which are key to identity as a culture. No amount of Ponniyin Selvan will make up for the day to day sense of aloofness. 
So what is wrong with Sanskrit prayers?, just because DMK asks for Tamil prayers doesn't mean Tambrams or others should accept, I have never heard them ask for Tamil Namaz for Muslims, in Andhra Pradesh also the Brahmins use Sanskrit but we don't see anyone blaming them of being traitors or demanding Telugu prayers, the fault lies with Dravidianists for the most part and yes they are first class morons, thankfully the other Southern states gave them no support, otherwise I have no doubt that they would have killed off Telugu slowly in their so called Dravidanadu paradise that they wanted.

06-26-2006, 08:33 PM

Dravidianists have no problem with English language. They have no problem with British and Muslims oppressors who must have killed their ancestors or oppressed them. They have no problem with local rulers or Kings but they have problem with Brahmin who had never killed their ancestors, never ruled over them.
For Dravidianists, tell lie over and over again and people will start believing them, and they have targeted weakest.

Today give these Dravidianists visa for West or Middle East, they will be first to move to these countries, will have no objection with English language or discrimination based on color or race.
But they have problem learning oldest Indian language Sanskrit and will not miss a single chance blaming Brahmins for everything wrong in their life.

Ofcourse these Dravidianists and their defenders are moron of highest order.

ramana · 06-26-2006, 09:55 PM

The Dravidianists are hold outs from the Buddhist reconversion campaigns of the first millenium. The process started around 600 AD and continued for another 600 years till it was interrupted by the Islamic and British invasions.

The new Hindi movie "Benaras" has a subtle message. In fact the entire city of Benaras i smade out to consist of Brahmins.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 06-27-2006, 12:41 AM by Husky.)

Post 41:
QUOTERishi Kapila - appears to have been blond.Give the reference please. At least state how old he was when he was described as blond. (By the way, what's the word for 'blond' in Samskritam, I'd like to know?)
My grandfather had black hair until he got old. Then his hair went gray. Then, because the sun browned it, it yellowed to a golden colour. If I were to describe his hair in his final years, it be as "yellowish goldish". (Thousands of years down the road, hopefully no one will mistake my description of my granddad as being that of a blond Aryan invader left-over)
Then again, this is common among many people: some old men of Africa whose hair has turned gray also have to live with their white hair yellowed by the sun. It happens (blame it on the sun if you will). Yet neither they nor we have any fear of being branded Aryan invaders to bother dyeing it back to black or gray.

QUOTE<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEThe big question is how come there should even be a single fair skinned man in the middle of Tamil Nadu?From time to time, Brahmins from North India (Indus region) had migrated to south and other part of India. North Indians are light color, reason is climate and distance from Equator. </div>That's one reason: some Tamil brahmin communities have one or two ancestors from North India from the remote past. However, all Tamil Hindu communities, not just brahmins, have the occasional very fair children born among them. The answer for this lies in India's vast gene pool. And finally another more universal reason is the genetics controlling skin colour. Skin colour alleles don't work on the model of "dominant+dominant=dominant phenotype; dominant+recessive=dominant phenotype; recessive+recessive=recessive phenotype". It's far more complex. Skin colour genes code additively and many genes determine how one's skin looks.
Dark grandparents might have a medium brown child who might give birth to an even lighter coloured grandchild.
It happens. All over the world. We can stop looking for European causes or in this case North Indian causes for these things in South India.
Whether it's a good or bad thing, whether it's a natural disaster or utterly irrelevant, sometimes it just happens. Among Africans too. Fair, medium, dark are all to be understood in context. "Very fair" among Indians tends to mean at its lightest 'average Mediterranean'. Among Africans the scale is skewed more to one side because Africa has all three tropic lines running through it.
Likewise for "very dark".

Another quirk of skin-related genes: women of any population tend to be on average fairer than the men. That's probably where the term "the fair sex" originated. That doesn't mean all women are fairer than all men. Just that, compared to the darkest-complexioned male in a given population at a given time, the darkest complexioned woman of the same population will most likely be fairer. And likewise, there will most likely be a woman lighter than the lightest-complexioned male in a population. (The normal distribution graph for women's complexions of any population is shifted to the lighter side whilst that of the men are shifted to the darker side). They say the reason for this is - no, not an Aryan Women Invasion all over the world - but to do with some evolutionary advantage for women during childbirth.

Note that green and gray eyes occur more frequently in vast populations like ours. If you remember basic biology class, they teach only about brown and blue eye allele combinations. That's because if the teacher factored in green and gray, than the biology lesson would become really complicated really fast. These are more commonly occurring light colours. They actually occur among many populations, including among Indians.

QUOTEHowever I have seen blue eyes among the following castes - Saraswata Brahmanas, Punjabi Khatris, Rajputs, Jats, Gujars, Yadavas, Bihari Brahmanas, Bengali Brahmanas, Jains, Kayasthas and also among South Indian Brahmanas.Ooooh - it's a miracle: Blue eyes occurring among small generally-endogamous groups!
In what way does this confound genetics? It happens. I've seen thousands of Tamil brahmins. No blue eyes. Sorry to disappoint all the avid blue-eyed-brahmin fans. I've seen what looked like a greenish-light-brownish-eyed Tamil brahmin. But then I've seen dozens of green- and gray-eyed Tamil Hindus who were not of the brahmin community (and I'm not even counting Aishwarya Rai.) Sorry if this disrupts your weird fantasy of Indian eye-colour distribution. Sometimes facts have that effect.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 06-27-2006, 10:28 AM by Husky.)

Post 53:
QUOTEEven though we speak Tamil at home, why should we not have a majority of the songs in Tamil during the Carnatic concerts?A significant proportion of Carnatic songs are written in Tamil. Just check out M.S. Subbulakshmi's repertoire. Many other Carnatic songs are written in Kannada, Telugu, Samskrit and a few even in Hindi. Should we ban all these merely because Tamil is the language spoken in Tamil Nadu? Should the Karnatakans ban Tamil Carnatic songs because their language is Kannada? Should we become mono-lingual, despising other languages, in imitation of a few Americans who think that their American-English is the be-all-and-end-all of all speech?
All our Indian languages are beautiful-sounding and part of our extended heritage. Showing respect for Samskrit (or Kannada, Telugu, Hindi,...,... for that matter) does not reduce the respect people have for Tamil.

Besides, Samskritam is the innate secondary mother tongue for all Hindus with Indian or South-East Asian ancestry - regardless of caste considerations. Our first mother tongue might differ, but Indians are unique in having a shared second mother tongue (or call it father tongue) whether we have had the opportunity to learn it or not.

Posts 53 & 55:
QUOTE<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEIt is the ultimate sad situation, that after all that happened in the Kanchi Mutt, there was not one non Brahmin citizen of Kanchi prepared to make a favourable comment. 
Phantom (admins, name check!!): Does that one Dalit who killed himself protesting the arrest of seer count ?</div>The media will not show this of course, but Tamil Hindus of all castes and communities greatly love and respect the Kanchi Shankaracharya. For the anti-Hindu media, showing this would be intolerable. They present him as being someone who is known and respected only among the Tamil brahmins. However, he is revered as much by many in those Tamil communities that the Dravidian parties only call "Dravidian" when they need votes but make fun of when the voting polls have closed.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 06-27-2006, 12:29 AM by Husky.)

QUOTEBrahmins are the glue that binds Bharat.All Hindus (and those Indians of other life-systems that are equally accepting of others) altogether are the glue that binds Bharat.
QUOTENot just Brahmanas, but other allied North Indian Aryan castes are the glue.(Didn't know we had any North Indian Aryan castes. Are they Nazis who unfortunately secretly settled in North India and formed their own caste?)
It should be "not just Brahmanas, but all Indian communities are the glue"

QUOTEI don't want to find out that I am half-white!If you mean half-European, then just check if one of your parents is European. If both are Indian, then there's nothing new to discover. And what's wrong with someone being half-European - many Native Americans, African-Americans, people of many countries are half-European. And come to think of it, what's wrong with being European? No one is to blame for the mistakes of others of their region. Discrimination either way is an ugly thing. Just because some Europeans did it to us and to other non-Europeans, you don't need to hate them all for it.
Stop going to racially motivated sites. They'll infect you. Or perhaps it's too late, you seem to be infected already. Cure yourself from that poison. Read and reflect on the meaning of "the world is one family" or some similar Hindu Vedic shlokas.

QUOTEI don't like inter-caste marriage or inter-racial marriage.
I don't like Brahamana females regardless of skin color marrying out of caste.Get over it. People will marry who they will. If you'd said that it might be better for a brahmana woman to marry a brahmana man because of shared food habits (vegetarianism) and shared customs, then that's understandable. That's how most people get married.
Nothing wrong with inter-ethnic marriages at all. And inter-caste marriages have been happening forever. Read the Mahabharatam again.
If people followed your way, humans will end up with genetic defects and no genetic variation. If you want to commit evolutionary suicide, you're on your own. You've been fairly warned. However, let the rest of us do as we wish. Inter-ethnic marriages have not been very common - geography, shared background are often influential in choice of partners. But inter-ethnic marriages will always occur to some extent, simply because humans are social animals and like interacting with other humans.

06-26-2006, 11:42 PM

QUOTE<b>Idols removed from temples, thrown into the Bhima </b>
Special Correspondent
http://www.hindu.com/2006/06/26/stories/...800400.htm
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The incident occurred in a Gulbarga villageÂ
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Idols in five temples in the village were removed
Dalit youths defend their action
`We do not need temples which are of no use to the people'
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GULBARGA: Tonasanalli (S) village in Chitapur taluk of Gulbarga district witnessed a strange spectacle of youths belonging to the Dalit community removing the idols of deities in five temples in the village and throwing them into the Bhima, declaring that they would embrace Buddhism.
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According to delayed reports reaching the district headquarters here on Sunday, Dalits, who are in a majority in the village, removed the idols from the temples on Thursday night, took them in a vehicle and dumped them in the river at Kattisangavi.
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The temples from where the idols were removed included the ancient Chennamallikeshwara Temple and Margamma Temple.
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People of the village were shocked when they found the idols missing from the temples.
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The Dalit youths removed the idols from the Margamma Temple, considered the biggest in the village, and installed the portraits of Buddha, Basaveshwara and B.R. Ambedkar at the temple entrance. Â
Although the Lingayats in the village were shaken, their protests were not vehement.
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There is a fear of the Sangh Parivar making it into a big issue.
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Deputy Commissioner Pankajkumar Pandey told The Hindu that the district administration had initiated steps to ensure that the peace was not disturbed in the village and discussions were being held with both groups.
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Mr. Pandey said the situation in the village was peaceful and that additional police force would be deployed there as a precautionary measure.
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The Dalit youths have defended their action. One of them said that the Dalit youths of the village were inspired by the speeches of people such as Chennamalla Swamiji of the Babasaheb Ambedkar Manava Dharma Peetha, State organising convener of the Dalit Sangharsha Samiti (Sagar) Malleshi Sajjan, former government Chief Whip in the Legislative Council Vittal Herur and others and had decided to give up Hinduism and embrace Buddhism.
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"We do not need temples which are of no use to the people and the idols which do not solve the problems of people and end the discrimination in the name of caste," said another Dalit youth who was also involved in the removal of idols from the temples.
The Dalit youths are also not bothered about the consequences of their action.
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"When we do not need temples, where is the need for the idols. We will convert these temples into public utility buildings," they said.
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The village on the Shahbad-Jewargi road, 38 km from here, is divided into two parts.
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While the first part on the main road has people all communities, the main village in the interior is dominated by Dalits.
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The village has five temples, including the Chennamallikeshwar temple which is revered by the villagers.
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The Dalits, while removing the idols from the temples, had to break into pieces the idol of a snake goddess installed in front of the Margamma temple. The Dalits had also not spared the idols of Basaveshwara, installed outside all the temples.
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The idols that were removed from the sanctum sanctorum of the temples in the village included that of Mailar Mallaiah Devaru, Basavannappa Devaru, Gangi Malamma Devaru, goddess Turangabali, Heggana Pradhani, Kari Lakshmi Devaru, Tala Margamma Devaru, Seemi Margamma Devaru and Samavva Devaru.

06-26-2006, 11:51 PM

If they don't need idol or temple why these moron are installing Amedakar or Buddha idol.
Think about what will happen if same is done by upper caste in India. Hell will break, but all atrocities of Dalit get unnoticed in India.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 06-26-2006, 11:53 PM by Husky.)

Post 68:
QUOTEremoving the idols of deities in five temples in the village and throwing them into the Bhima, declaring that they would embrace BuddhismHow can anyone become Buddhist with such a mindset?
In another 2 centuries or so, when they have been fed anti-Buddhist propaganda (currently doing the rounds in Tibet, Sri Lanka, Korea,...), they will toss statues of the Buddha and other Buddhist icons and jump into Islam, Christianity (or Scientology or whatever is popular then).
Their Hindu ancestors are no doubt shaking their heads in sadness. Everything they respected, loved and believed in is being trampled all over by their own descendants. The missionaries and the others must be congratulating themselves. Step one of their plan accomplished: they got these people disrespecting their own ancestors. They're now awaiting the conversion out of Buddhism 2 centuries hence.

I'd rather they didn't taint Buddhism with their insincerity and hatred for Hinduism.

06-27-2006, 12:23 AM

QUOTE(Pritam @ Jun 26 2006, 04:38 AM)My pet peeve is that Tambrams have played their politics badly. I hope that is evident in between my lines.

No, you did not think Tambrams played their politics badly. You think they were a fundamentally bad people, who basically deserved what they got.

QUOTETaking the brahmins out of the equations might mean opening up of more opportunities for the majority of Tamils. Because of this, we need to find a way to cope with the situation and get on with life.Â

How? you need a better argument. Or, better still, empirical evidence. You don't have anything right now.

QUOTETamil Nadu will flourish, and deep in our hearts, we would llike to be part of it. Inspite of such an animosity at my community, I cannot but have a pang of pride at the current trend where for the first time in 40 years, Chennai is on the forefront of Indian progress.

Why? The Tamil Nadu government or state apparatus would like to see you and your traditions destroyed. The politicans have practically removed your access to government employment, to even the traditional role of the priesthood and would like to see you eradicated as a community in Tamil Nadu. In this, they have been pretty succeeful. Now, why do you care about them?

QUOTEBut I repeat, the high profile brahmins, have not served their community to its benefit. Commenting on current events, I can only give an example of the recent editorials of Tughlak & Kalki. In the light of the Sri Lankan army's atrocities committed on Tamils, we get a pious lecture on the behaviour of the Tamil Tigers. That won't wash with the Tamil community.

It betrays such an insensitivity to the Tamils. It is on such occassions, if Kalki/Tughlak cannot feel the pang of kinship, they better shut up. To do so otherwise, is a betrayalÂ to your brethren (brahmins and others) who are already disadvantaged, and to whom you are bringing on more misery from your ivory towers.

Blood is thicker than water. Let us show that we are good Tamils too, and keep in sync with majority of the Tamil pulse. Is it so difficult to understand this?

I suspect, this is your pet peeve. But, you should take it into another thread.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 06-27-2006, 10:27 AM by Husky.)

Post #60:
QUOTEBut I repeat, the high profile brahmins, have not served their community to its benefit. Commenting on current events, I can only give an example of the recent editorials of Tughlak & Kalki. In the light of the Sri Lankan army's atrocities committed on Tamils, we get a pious lecture on the behaviour of the Tamil Tigers. That won't wash with the Tamil community.Strange, the Tamil Hindu community of Sri Lanka is now slowly starting to hate and fear the LTTE. And no, I'm not talking about any brahmins. The Sri Lankan Tamil Hindus settled here are complaining loud about the LTTE which is anti-Buddhist and anti-Hindu. The militant organisation burns down temples of both these religions whilst conspicuously leaving Churches standing.

QUOTELet us show that we are good Tamils too, and keep in sync with majority of the Tamil pulse. Is it so difficult to understand this?You seem to know so little of what you supposedly are. For instance, you know very little about Carnatic music - other than mentioning it as a pastime of some Tamil brahmins. Can't help suspecting you're not what you are pretending to be here. Most Tamils have no problems with the brahmin community among them. The only complaints I've ever heard are from the anti-Hindu groups (of which I have never met anyone in real life) in the media. And you are curiously listing all their complaints (knowing that side really well), but know little of what you pretend to be.

06-27-2006, 04:10 AM

QUOTE(Pritam @ Jun 25 2006, 11:54 PM)The vast majority of Tamil speakers, honestly believe that our loyalty is to a vague North, which exists only in our imagination.

Bullshit! What most Tamil Brahmins feel is not loyalty at all. It is the need to make their careers and lives outside Tamil Nadu. In India, that is mostly to the North. The fact that you are even saying this, tells me you don't know too many Tamil Brahmins. Which is not surprising, considering that the Brahmin population today is between 1-2% of the overall TN population.

QUOTEBack to the term 'reactionary'. The poor Brahmins, caught in the vice of acute discrimination, look upon to their remembered glories and the Kanchi Mutt, neither one of which will be able to alleviate their condition.

This basically means - NOTHING. See, the word "reactionary" is an epithet used against their opponents, by people who think their views will inexorably dominate the world in the future. The poor Brahmins look to the Kanchi Mutt, not because it is their political center, but because it is the religious center of their world (not all of them, too! Only to some of them).

QUOTE The Kanch Mutt, especially with the previous leader, had a golden opportunity in 1967, when Annadurai was elected. He was from Kanchi and the Mutt lost an opportunity to pay respects to the favourite son.Â Just the reverse, had the same CNA been a brahmin, would the Mutt have behaved differently? I leave the reader to answer the question as befitting her/his view.

Another of your pet peeves, huh Preetam/phantom? Why don't you create a thread about such pap, and we will discuss it on its merits?

QUOTEOne additional point, I may as well bring up. The ones who have emigrated, especially abroad, are among the most reactionary (yes I would like to use the word again). After all, they do not have face they day to day life hinderances.

I see. So, what does the word "reactionary" mean, in this context? They hate all non-brahmins? They hate the LTTE, that peaceful organization of "freedom fighters" you so love? Why not say what you actually mean, instead of labeling your opponents with such vague epithets?

<b>day-to-day life hindrances</b>, you say? What would these be? Let me guess, government-initiated discrimination, and government's neglect of petty crimes and insults that fall their way. That is why you should be agitating against the government, <b>not blaming the victims or their long-dead forefathers!</b>

QUOTEMake peace with your fellow Tamil Hindus and try to get on with it. Instead of whining that an old way of life is dying. Maybe it was based on wrongness of universal inequality in the first place. This would not play in the 21st century.

Universal, government-imposed unequal treatment is what you have now. That is what you should be complaining now; and you should have been complaining about when it was instituted.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 06-27-2006, 11:20 AM by Husky.)

QUOTEThe vast majority of Tamil speakers, honestly believe that our loyalty is to a vague North, which exists only in our imagination.Obviously, you've never lived in Tamil Nadu. No one has any particular loyalty to North India <i>over-and-above</i> their loyalty to their own language-region. For Tamil Hindu people, they recognise India - not North or South India - as their homeland. Having been to Chennai for a month just recently, I have seen over 4 autos and hired cars with the label "I love India" alongside the various pictures of Gods. Those were the vehicles that caught my eye, I wasn't even looking for it. There might have been more.
You might want to imagine a Tamil Nadu where people are more sympathetic to a Tamil-only identity, but in reality Tamil people regard Tamil as our well-loved mother language and Indian as our identity and culture. Our religion is Hindu.

QUOTEThe vast majority of Tamil speakers, honestly believe that our loyalty is to a vague NorthYour imagination.
If you speak of all Tamilians with the reference to 'Tamil speakers' you are very much mistaken. As for Tamil Nadu's brahmin community, if you are referring to them, then you are once again very mistaken. Tamil brahmins' home region is Tamil Nadu, for some it's the Tamil speaking portion of Karnataka and for a few it is a part of Kerala where they have lived since times long forgotten.

Indian Tamils do have sympathy with Tamils living in Sri Lanka (shared language, neighbouring people), but the Sri Lankan Tamil Hindus settled where I live have sympathy with both the Hindu and Buddhist populations in Sri Lanka - or as your racially oriented brain would understand it, their sympathies lie with both the Tamils and the Sinhalese. That's because, unlike you, they <i>know</i> the LTTE, its goals and its ruthless ways.
Or perhaps you're an LTTE sympathiser, which would explain a lot. It's not the Tamil brahmins that are keeping Tamil Nadu from supporting and aligning itself with the LTTE's cause. It's all Tamils. People who are agitating against Buddhists and Hindus are obviously people who'd have trouble with anything and everyone. It doesn't take a genius to understand that.
Many Sri Lankan Tamils are Sri Lankans - most of their ancestors are Sri Lankan. Your confusing linguistic and national boundaries. We share their language and religion, but have not been connected historically with their region. If we are to blindly support them only for being Tamil, then we ought to also blindly support the Sinhalese for being equally of Indian ethnicity. If we ought to support the Tamils for having many Hindus among them (on the other hand, many of the LTTE controlled villages are now Christian and other Tamils are Islamic), then we ought to agree with their Hindu viewpoint that the LTTE is militant and anti-Hindu as well as anti-Buddhist.

I do sympathise with the Tamils in Sri Lanka, which is why I understand and have come to agree with their view of the situation there and of the LTTE in particular. Without the LTTE and missionary interference in Sri Lanka, the Tamil Hindus and the Buddhist Sinhala could quite easily sort out their differences and live amicably alongside themselves. They believe this and have convinced me of it. Historically, the Buddhists and Hindus there got on very well.
The international media, when it bothers to cover the region, alters the whole thing by portraying the LTTE as representative of the Hindu population. It is not even representative of the Tamil population, however it might wish to be. But perhaps we shouldn't wonder about the media bias, when the Churches are making great progress amongst the Tamils brainwashed by the LTTE's lies.

QUOTEI felt very ashamed that even unknowingly I was a party to an act of denial of human dignity.Yes, feel ashamed. And please try and undo what <i>you</i> did, instead of accusing others of having done the same thing. You're the one who trampled over others' human dignity (if I'm to believe your post), not others. Just 'cause you're a bank robber doesn't make the rest of the world guilty of theft, now does it?

QUOTEWhen we (my grandfather with me) met certain people on the street, they used to stay a few feet away from us, close their mouth and address us. Certain other groups used to go uleleleing on seeing our approachMy condolences for being the first and only 'brahmins' (Tamil or otherwise) I've heard of to match up with the stereotypical profile created for them by missionaries. You're also the first Tamil brahmin to be ignorant about Carnatic music whilst simultaneously pretending to know about it. The first to think that the Kanchi mutt is the central be-all-and-end-all of all Tamil brahmins and the first to parrot-wise repeat all the anti-brahmin propaganda as if it were fact. Geez, I wonder how we saw right through you?

QUOTEMake peace with your fellow Tamil Hindus and try to get on with it.You're the one in need of doing so.

07-01-2006, 08:57 PM

Hi greetings to all.

QUOTEThere have always been Orthodox Hindus and Heterodox Hindus in India.
Both stemming from a common Vedic platform.

Orthodox Hinduism developed in the states of Kuru, Panchala, Kasi and Kosala, basically the "Madhyadesha" region.

The rest of the regions were Heterodox.

Only Orthodox Hindus have believed in the rigid caste system represented by Manu Smrti.

It appears the Orthodox Hindus in order to preserve their identity decided to take this route.

The Heterodox Hindus have always been open to absorbing new comers.

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.ph...topic=914&st=30

QUOTEThe intelligent king, Bhojaraj established the language of Sanskrit in three varnas - the brahmanas, kshatriyas and vaisyas - and for the shudras he established prakrita-bhasha, the ordinary language spoken by common men. After ruling his kingdom for 50 years, he went to the heavenly planet. The moral laws established by him were honored even by the demigods. The arya-varta, the pious land is situated between Vindhyacala and Himacala or the mountains known as Vindhya and Himalaya. The Aryans reside there, but varna-sankaras reside on the lower part of Vindhya. The musalman people were kept on the other side of the river Sindhu. 

{EDITED - No missionary propoganda here}
QUOTE<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

Take the initiative to reform, or reap what our ancestors sowed.

My ancestors have not sowed anything wrong. If your, let us know.
What Dravidnist have done to Brahmin community is not only pathetic but surprisingly they still blame Brahmins and have no regret and there is no shortage of their cheer leaders in current century.

After ethnic cleansing of Brahmins from Tamil Nadu, you are still blaming Brahmins.
Is this a battle of linguist superiority or something else?</div>

QUOTEIn India during this period Hindu colleges (ghatikas) were associated with the temples, and gradually the social power of the Brahmins superseded Buddhists and Jains, though the latter survived in the west. 

QUOTEThe worker caste of Sudras was divided into the clean and the untouchables, who were barred from the temples. There were a few domestic slaves and those sold to the temples. Brahmins were often given tax-free grants of land, and they were forbidden by caste laws to work in cultivation; thus the peasant Sudras provided the labor. The increasing power of the Brahmin landowners led to a decline of merchants and the Buddhists they often had supported.
{EDITED - No missionary propoganda here}

QUOTEKuntiputra, there are reasons why the Brahmins were so disliked in Tamil Nadu.

Unlike in other parts of India, large numbers of Brahmins were landowners; they exploited the labourers.

During British rule they took to education first, and so entered professions and services in large numbers. That is ok, but once in administration and management they kept on giving jobs and educational facilities to their own castes. They formed cliques to keep non-Brahmins out. That made other castes resent them.

Because of their tactics, in British India they enjoyed enormous political power. With democracy, this equation changed.

In 18th and 19th century, untouchability was more severe here. Dalits could be beaten if their shadow fell on a Brahmin; and until Rani (?) changed the laws, Dalits could wear only the barest minimum of clothing, because the way you show respect to a superior was to bare a portion of your body, and everybody was superior to them.

Dalit dislike is easy to understand. But the first three reasons were why the Sudras were so much against them.
You will notice that in other states of South India such throwing out of Brahmins did not happen.

Of course now the dalits (at least those who made it) are not abused. And since dalits are human beings, many take advantage of laws to abuse caste-Hindus over property disputes and so on.
I am not saying that dalit raj is the answer; I am only saying that poorer dalits do suffer from a bias which Brahmins in other states do not suffer from.
_________________

{EDITED - No missionary propoganda here}

QUOTEHe said, he came from a low caste who were nearly untouchable. Their women were not allowed to wear anything above navel and below the knee. They were<b> toddy (Alcoholic) tappers </b>and were therefore considered unclean. They suffered immensely at the hands of caste hindus. 

{EDITED - No missionary propoganda here}

QUOTEMarco Polo on his visit to south India about 1293 noted that climate and ignorant treatment did not allow horses to thrive there. He admired Kakatiya queen Rudramba, who ruled for nearly forty years. He noted the Hindus' strict enforcement of justice against criminals and<b> abstention from wine</b>, but he was surprised they did not consider any form of sexual indulgence a sin.

{EDITED - No missionary propoganda here}

I have had Brahmin friends.I bear no ill will towards them but I fear what might be the situation if they get back absolute power.

07-01-2006, 09:19 PM

QUOTEI have had Brahmin friends.I bear no ill will towards them but I fear what might be the situation if they get back absolute power. 
These are called scare mongering or hate mongering. Could you name any Brahmin ruler of India, if any, did he ever indulge in massacre of citizen or oppression?
Brahmin/priest was always involved in temples and ashrams. Your views are missionariesâ propaganda.

You, youself see your own friend with casteist eyes, tells everything what is your mindset and hate within.

07-02-2006, 12:49 AM

QUOTEI have had Brahmin friends.I bear no ill will towards them but I fear what might be the situation if they get back absolute power. 

Absolute power is something to be afraid of, <b>irrespective of caste, creed or religion</b>.

But, surely, that was not your point. Your point is that, Brahmins must be trampled and kept underfoot, for the welfare of the rest of the world. It is not <i>absolute power</i> that you are worried about, it is <i>mere equality</i>.

QUOTEHe said, he came from a low caste who were nearly untouchable. Their women were not allowed to wear anything above navel and below the knee. They were toddy (Alcoholic) tappers and were therefore considered unclean. They suffered immensely at the hands of caste hindus.
What has this to do with Brahmins? BTW, he is talking about Nadars. How many Brahmins interacted with Nadars, as a matter of course? And, how much were they involved in the issue of clothing?

QUOTEMarco Polo on his visit to south India about 1293 noted that climate and ignorant treatment did not allow horses to thrive there. He admired Kakatiya queen Rudramba, who ruled for nearly forty years. He noted the Hindus' strict enforcement of justice against criminals and abstention from wine, but he was surprised they did not consider any form of sexual indulgence a sin.

I don't understand your problem here. Are you a sexual puritan? Do you think sexual indulgence should not exist? What exactly is your issue here? And what does this phrase "any form of sexual indulgence" mean? Does it mean homosexuality? BDSM? rape fantasies? What does it mean? And, why do you care about it?

07-02-2006, 09:29 AM

QUOTECould you name any Brahmin ruler of India, if any, did he ever indulge in massacre of citizen or oppression?
Brahmin/priest was always involved in temples and ashrams. Your views are missionariesâ propaganda.

Not necessarily according to a book by Inder Malhotra as well another small book that I read,
those who formed the high class could change profession.

For example there was some Brahmin by name Gopanna/Gopaka who was a general in the Vijaynagar empire in its early years.(the author of that book is a Brahmin professor)

And there were small intercene wars,I know of one particular name Khadga Tikkana(Khadga=sword) from my childhood,who was a Brahmin general with Manuma Siddhi ,ruler of the principality of Nellore.
and was captured but spared for the first time by the rival king Katama Raju for being a Brahmin.

He of course was killed by an arrow from the back when he went to fight a second time,His horse carried away his body to his grieving parents both of whom died of grief and his wife committed Sati.

In Tamil Nadu,Brahmins were given temples as a compensation and atonement for <i>Brahma hatya pataka</i>(sin of killing a Brahmin)
which might mean that a situation might have arised where it might have been deemed necessary to kill Brahmin.
(Legend has it that Rama built the Rameshwaram temple as an atonement for killing Ravana,a Brahmin)

Yes I have never come across any Brahmin initiated massacre.

By the way are Bhumihars in Bihar Brahmins?
QUOTEYou, youself see your own friend with casteist eyes, tells everything what is your mindset and hate within.

Did I ever say that I saw them with casteist mind or that I was ever discriminated against.No.never.

07-02-2006, 09:37 AM

QUOTE<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEMarco Polo on his visit to south India about 1293 noted that climate and ignorant treatment did not allow horses to thrive there. He admired Kakatiya queen Rudramba, who ruled for nearly forty years. He noted the Hindus' strict enforcement of justice against criminals and abstention from wine, but he was surprised they did not consider any form of sexual indulgence a sin.

I don't understand your problem here. Are you a sexual puritan? Do you think sexual indulgence should not exist? What exactly is your issue here? And what does this phrase "any form of sexual indulgence" mean? Does it mean homosexuality? BDSM? rape fantasies? What does it mean? And, why do you care about it?</div>

I used that reference to show that Brahmins were from more civilised North could have excluded themselves as mitradena has pointed out.North was Orthodox backt then,South could have been heteredox.

I was just confirming what he said.No offence intended.Yes by the modern Hindu standards I do consider indulgence a sin.

07-02-2006, 09:42 AM

QUOTEYour point is that, Brahmins must be trampled and kept underfoot, for the welfare of the rest of the world. It is not absolute power that you are worried about, it is <i>mere equality.</i>

ad himinem after ad hominem.

The power of Brahimn is invincible atleast for a long time to come.Their zeal ,hardwork
,dedication ,background along with possible natural intelligence would ensure that even if the whole of India converts to another religion,their descendants would still remain on the top.

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