<!--QuoteBegin-Singhi Kaya+Aug 11 2006, 03:15 PM-->QUOTE(Singhi Kaya @ Aug 11 2006, 03:15 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me ask has Snatan Dharm gained strenght from the RKP movement or has the RKP weaken the Dharma?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll answer. It has!!
Impact has mainly been cultural and intellectual. Bhava vada and Universalism rapidly spreading in hindu mind in Bengal and outside can be dirrectly attributed to some extent to RKM movement. But that point has been discussed already in the main article quoted.
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I have heard from a sannyasin who has spend decades to counter missionary conversion activities on how RKM activity made jobs of missionaries easy. This was an incident in early part of his karmic life. He was woking in a remote tribal area where missionaries were active. RKM also had a very big mission there. RKM's services were best and it had the only good hospital in the area. RKM generally has potraits of Christ hanging in their buidlings and prayer halls. Missionaries used this oppertunity to take sick tribals to RKM service and say that these facilities were christian. They will point to potraits of christ as an example. RKM monks never bother to actually have contact with the poor tribal living in his hut unless someone comes to them. Neither they bothered how missionaries were using their facility to carry on their own work.
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This is a funny story that I have heard...but I thinks it points how universalims works in real life.
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Let me just say that you are talking about NE where Christian missionary hospitals refuse to serve hindu patients.
I have a sanyasi friend who has served 4 years in NE working with RKM hospital /dispensaries/ambulances before moving to Ranchi and i can assure you they are every much aware of Missionary activities and are in fact onlee one keeping Snatan Dharam alive in that part of India. I have some medical stuff sent to them from time to time whenever need arise.
Undemining RKM force in NE is nothing but to grant victory to missionary on a platter. Yours and yoyr story teller friend's apprehensions are unfounded.
This particular incident was not in NE.
NE is as good as gone.
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On RKP, I can write what I have been told about him in spiritual terms and what I believe etc. But there is no point. Despite RKP's so called boundary-less teaching and life, he is and will be respected as someone who knew God only within the boundaries of the hindu society. There is not much point in critisizing him and add to fragmentation of the fragmented society. But "Sarva Dharma Sama Bhava" needs to be criticised as this is as dangerous to hinduism as direct Islam or Xianity activity. If some people recognize that RKP's teaching has a hand in this false ideology then good, but it is not important. Just like killing secularism is more important than bring down Gandhi's and Nehru's icon.
I'll answer a few points though ...
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Let just say that those who know "self" their actions/ inaction depend on Supreme and Shastras dont try to Judge them.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not true. One should always judge the teacher before accepting him. Sanatan Dharma is not blind faith. After accepting a Guru, the Guru is God.
But this is a personal issue and hence I don't want to go further on RKP. I agree use of term weak guru needs explanation...but then why should anyone listen to mine. So I concur that direct questioning of RKP's status was not correct in a public forum ~ whatever be my idea about him.
However removing this slip comment of weak Guru ~ we were arguing about invalidity of RKP's teaching of universalism in context of Sanatan Dharma.
I haven't seen much in your replies on this particular point to argue more on this issue.
You have been saying things from universalism's perspective and falsely putting it that such is the behaviour of a "knower of self". Just to remind you, Rama and Krishna and Sri Shankaracharya are also accepted as knower of self (even as god himself) ~ yet they felt the need to draw boundaries in many of the important acts of their life.
<!--QuoteBegin-Singhi Kaya+Aug 12 2006, 03:07 PM-->QUOTE(Singhi Kaya @ Aug 12 2006, 03:07 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->I'll answer a few points though ...
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Let just say that those who know "self" their actions/ inaction depend on Supreme and Shastras dont try to Judge them.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not true. One should always judge the teacher before accepting him. Sanatan Dharma is not blind faith. After accepting a Guru, the Guru is God.
But this is a personal issue and hence I don't want to go further on RKP. I agree use of term weak guru needs explanation...but then why should anyone listen to mine. So I concur that direct questioning of RKP's status was not correct in a public forum ~ whatever be my idea about him.
However removing this slip comment of weak Guru ~ we were arguing about invalidity of RKP's teaching of universalism in context of Sanatan Dharma.
I haven't seen much in your replies on this particular point to argue more on this issue.
You have been saying things from universalism's perspective and falsely putting it that such is the behaviour of a "knower of self". Just to remind you, Rama and Krishna and Sri Shankaracharya are also accepted as knower of self (even as god himself) ~ yet they felt the need to draw boundaries in many of the important acts of their life.
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Singhi Kaya , can u please post the name of the author of above critique as well as the limitations/ boundaries of Rama and Krihsna and of the Snatan Dharma .
If Snatan Dharam is confined to boundaries, it shoud call itslef some other name as eternal cannot be limited by books,persons and personalities. I thonk the very quetsioning of Universlism in Snatan dharm is invalid and against its spirit of spritual enquiery thus making it equal to a 'sampardaya" or cult like Hare Krishna, Rajnesshims, Brahm Kumari etc..
<b>Agamas</b>
The Agama has three main divisions - Saiva (based on Siva as the Deity), Sakta (based on worship of Sakti as the Deity) , and vaishNava.
There are further sub-divisions among each of the Agama-s. The principal divisions in the vaishNava Agama are the <b>vaikhAnasa and pAncarAtra</b>.
In the historical evolution of the Agama-s, there have been several views over time -
a) Agama-s are derived from the vedas,
b) Agama and veda are both derived from a common root or mUla-veda,
c) Agama-s are inferior to, and less authoritative than the veda, and
d) Agama-s are superior to veda.
It was probably these kinds of differences that led to Sri YamunacArya's work titled Agama-prAmANya and Sri VedAnta desika's work titled SrI pAncarAtra rakshA. It should be noted that SrI vedAnta deSika has also written a work about the vaikhAnasa Agama titled sajjanavaibhava.
The development of the Agama schools gave great support to promoting the concept of bhakti by concentrating attention on one Deity, and to self-surrender. It also gave great support to art through temple architecture, devotional poetry, dance, etc.
<b>PAncaratra</b>
<i>Introduction</i>
There are several different explanations for the term pAncarAtra. Some of these relate to the principles or practices of the pAncarAtra, whereas others fall in the category of 'imaginative exercises' as described in Agama-koSa published by Kalpatharu Research Academy. An elaborate list of definitions from several samhitA-s is included in the above reference, but I am including below only a few of them.
Literally, the term "pAncarAtra" means "five nights". Some definitions tie back to this meaning, and others key in on the word "pAnca". Based on an analysis of the definitions found in various texts, the five rAtra-s have been equated to a) five cosmic elements, b) five objects of senses, c) the five types of knowledge, or d) the five types of ignorance. And so, the pAncarAtra Sastra can be considered either as the means for the liberation of the soul from the five elements, or container of the five types of knowledge, or the dispeller of the five types of ignorance. Some definitions tell the story of five nights which is described below.
The following is from vihagendra samhitA (I.31-4) - "When the kr*ta yuga had just appeared, by the grace of KeSava, the following five viz. ananta (the serpent), GaruDa, vishvaksena, Brahman and Siva hear the Sastra in parts, as follows: in the first night (rAtra) ananta has his questions answered, in the second night GaruDa, etc. Each of them hears for himself the Religion of Faith in the form of a work on knowledge, yoga, construction, and conduct, each night consisting of a lakh of verses. Since the whole instruction thus has five lakhs of verses, it is called the pAncarAtra".
The name "pAncarAtra" can thus be associated with the "five nights" of instruction. The last sentence in the above para from the translation of vihagendra samhitA implies that the word "rAtra" relates to "one lakh". This could not be verified from the dictionary.
<i>Other Interpretations of the term Pancaratra</i>
Another interpretation for the term "pAncarAtra" comes from Satapata-brahmaNa (XIII.6.1). This has the earliest passage in which the word pAncarAtra occurs. Here, Purusha nArAyaNa is mentioned as having conceived the idea of a pAnca-rAtra sattra - continued sacrifice for five days - as a means of attaining superiority over all beings and becoming all beings.
In ahirbudhnya samhitA, at the end of the 11th adhyAya, it is stated that the Lord Himself framed out of the original Sastra the system called pAncarAtra describing His fivefold nature known as para, vyuha, vibhava, antaryAmin, and arca forms. This is yet another interpretation for the term.
Other explanations involve the five-fold kAla-s like abhigamana etc., or the panca samskAra-s (puNdra, nAma, mantra, japa and pujA). In the nArAyaNIya (12.338.4) nArAyaNa is called "pa~ncaj~na, pa~nca kAla kartr* pate, pa~ncarAtrika" - (Homage to) Thee of Five Offerings, Lord of those who perform the Pa~nca kAla ritual, Thee of pA~nca rAtra. In the pAdma-samhitA there is a Sloka which lists different words which are synonymous with the word 'bhAgavata'. One of these is panca-kAla-vit (the knower of the significance of the five-fold division of time). "sUrih suhr*t bhAgavatah sAttvatah panca-kAla-vit | ekAntikah tan-mayaSca pAnca-rAtrika ityapi | evamAdibhirAkhyAbhih Akhyeyah kamalAsana || (2-87)" SrI vedAnta-deSika's eloquent defense of pAnca-rAtra highlights this aspect of the pAnca-rAtra doctrine -
panca-kAla vyavasthityai venkateSa vipaScitA | SrI pAncarAtra siddhAnta vyavastheyam samarthitA || The jayAkhya samhitA gives a similar definition, and says the name is derived based on the five different actions performed during the five time periods - panca karmAnushThAna panca kAla nirdeSanena pAncarAtra iti sam~jnah.
The panca kAla-s are:
1) abhigamana - beginning with the brahma-muhUrta about 4.30 a.m., devoted to the preparatory sequences in the morning (like Sauca, snAna, snadhyA, japa, and dhyAna).
2) upAdAna - from about 9 a.m. to 12 noon) - spent in collecting the articles necessary for worship (like flowers, tulasi, fruits, etc.), and making preparations for worship
3) ijyA ( beginning with noontime) devoted to the formal iconic worship elaborately conducted, and partaking of food as naivedya with other devotees
4) svAdhyAya (afternoon and evening), spent in the study of scriptures, contemplating on import, teaching scriptures to others, and such activities
5) yoga (night), devoted to the repetition of the formal iconic worship but briefly conducted, yoga practice (eight-fold practice, ashThAnga yoga), and deep meditation on godhead (dhyAna) before finally resting for the day.
The five phases are intended to be one uninterrupted worship ritual, with the ijyA as the central theme, and the others as preparatory or follow-up. This may be along the lines of the pAncarAtra sattra ritual of the Satapata-brAhmaNa, with the five nights altered to five phases of the day.
Among the definitions that do not directly relate to the practices of the pAncarAtra are the following:
The mahA-bhArata views is that the name derives from the fact that pAnca-rAtra is inclusive of the four veda-s and the sAnkhya yoga - "idam mahopanishadam caturveda samanvitam | sAnkhya yoga kr*tAntena panca-rAtrAnuSabditam " ( mahAbhA 339,112).
The five subjects of knowledge covered in the pAncarAtra according to the nArada pAncarAtra are tattva (cosmology), mukti-prada (liberation), bhakti-prada (devotion), yaugika (yoga), and vaishayika (objects of sense). The nAradIya pAncarAtra is now generally not considered an authentic pAncarAtra text by many vaishNava-s. I could also not verify the meaning "knowledge" for the word "rAtra" from my samskr*t dictionaries.
The Sandilya samhitA (1-4-75-76) gives a different interpretation viz. that the pAncarAtra is capable of giving the devotee delight that will be given together by the five nights viz. sAnkhya, yoga, Saiva, veda-s, and AraNyaka. Here the firve Sastra-s are equated with rAtra-s.
Another interesting stanza from the utsava sa~ngraha says that the name derives because of the five disciplines covered in the pAncarAtra - Agama, bharata (nAtya Sastra), Silpa (iconography and architecture), vaidya (medicine), and jyotisha (astrology) -
Agamam bharatam Silpam vaidya jyotishameva ca | pancA SAstrANi samyogAt pAncarAtramiti smr*tam || (utsava san. Mss. Adyar Lib., vo. 3 p. 15). Paushkara samhitA (38-307-308) interprets the word as meaning a collection of five systems of thought - purANa, veda, vedAnta, sAnkhya, and yoga
- purANam veda-vedAntam tathAnanAkhya yogajam |
panca prakAram vij~neyam yatra rAtrAyate'bjaja |
phalotkarshenaiva pancarAtra iti smr*tam ||
There are some texts (e.g., padma-purANa) that interpret the word rAtri as 'overcoming' or 'eradicating' (rAtrIyante, adr*SyAni bhavanti), some that interpret rAtra as meaning ignorance or false knowledge (e.g., vishNu samhitA), etc. The false knowledge is that obtained through the five senses (form, sound, smell, taste, and touch), or the panca-bhUta-s (earth, water, fire, air, AkASa) which constitute the world.
<b>Vaikhanasas</b>
<i>Doctrines </i>
Vaikhanasas claim to be a surviving school of Vedic ritual, the Taittiriya sakha of the Krishna Yajurveda. Vaikhanasa tradition says the sage Vikhanas, who was a manifestation of Brahma or Vishnu, composed the Vaikhanasa Kalpasutra and taught four disciples, Atri, Bhringu, Kasyapa, and Marici, the procedures of samurtarcana, devotional service to Vishnu in images. Most Vaikhanasa literature is almost completely concerned with ritual, prescribing the rituals and their rules of performance.
To the Vaikhanasas their temple worship is a continuation of Vedic fire sacrifice. Regular and correct worship of Vishnu in a temple will bring the same results as the fire sacrifice even for people who do not maintain their fires.Jnana, knowledge, sections of Vaikhanasa texts are short and it is necessary to infer their doctrines from discussions in the texts on ritual. The Vaikhanasas evolved the theory of the five aspects of Vishnu: Vishnu, the all-pervading supreme deity; Purusa, the principle of life; Satya, the static aspect of deity; Acyuta, the immutable aspect; and Aniruddha, the irreducible aspect.
The distinction is emphasised between Vishnu in his niskala presence, the unfigured primeval and indivisible form unperceived even by Brahma, and his sakala presence, the figured, divisible, emanated, and movable form. In his sakala presence he responds gracefully to devotional meditation. Shri is important as nature, prakriti, and as the power, shakti, of Vishnu.The Vaikhanasa doctrine states that moksha is release into Vishnu's heaven.
The nature of a man's moksha is dependent on a devotee's service of japa, attentive repetition of prayer, huta, sacrifice, arcana, service to images, or dhyana, yogic meditation. Of the four the Marici Samhita says arcana is the realisation of all aims.
<i>History </i>
The Vaikhanasas originated as a group of ascetics. In the Manava Dharmasastra, Manu discusses vanaprastha, forest-dweller, the third of the four asramas, stages of life, and mentions a "Vaikhanasa rule." Other ancient authorities support this reference, so it seems there was a Vaikhanasa ascetic community before the common era. They are also mentioned in the Narayaniya, which is a late section of the Mahabharata of uncertain date but probably no earlier than the third century CE.
Surviving Vaikhanasa sutras are no older than the fourth century CE.Inscriptions from perhaps the eighth century CE identify Vaikhanasas as temple priests, and from the end of the tenth century they are prominently mentioned in South Indian inscriptions. Vaikhanasas were the priests of Vaishnava temples. They were not merely ritual priests, but were trusted with administering the temples and their lands.
With the rise of the Shri Vaishnavas the Vaikhanasas declined in their temple role. Ramanuja, leader of the Shri Vaishnavas and the first organiser of temple administration at Srirangam Temple, replaced the Vaikhanasa system of worship with the more liberal Pancaratra system, expanded the fivefold division of temple servants into tenfold, and gave an important part in ritual to sudra, lowest caste, ascetics. This change spread to other Vaishnava temples. However, the Vaikhanasas continued to be important.
Today Vaikhanasas are the chief priests in more than half of the Vaishnava temples in the South Indian states of Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, and parts of Karnataka. Their present day temple activities are worthy of attention, as are their efforts to work for community integrity which is threatened by increasing social and technological changes.
<i>Symbols </i>
Temples and images with the Vaikhanasas are of more importance than perhaps any other sect of Hinduism.In accordance with Vaikhanasa doctrine of the two forms of Vishnu, the niskala, the unfigured, and the sakala, the figured, two cult images are distinguished.
There is the large immovable image representing Vishnu's niskala form, which is ritually placed in a sanctuary and elaborately consecrated, and a smaller movable image representing Vishnu's sakala form. If the devotee wishes for temporal and eternal results he should worship both forms. But if he is after only eternal results he should worship the immovable image.After purification and meditation to identify with Vishnu, the devotee surrenders to Vishnu and places the movable image on a bathing pedestal and elaborately bathes it.
This is preparation for receiving the presence of God by immediate contact via a connecting string. The invocation starts with a mantra, sacred utterance, saying that the Imperishable is linked to the Perishable and that the Self is released from all evil as it knows God. Flowers are presented to all the deities present. Then the hymn called the Atmasukta is recited that identifies the body of the devotee with the cosmos, followed by meditation on Vishnu's niskala aspect: these parts of the ritual are to request Vishnu to take his sakala form in the movable image so that the devotee can converse with Him.
A puja ceremony takes place with God as the royal guest, followed by a homa, offering into the fire, and a bali offering with something that may be visible, touchable, audible, or eatable. An offering of havis, cooked food, is important as the God's meal. Afterwards the food as prasada, holy food, is eaten by the worshippers. The offering area is cleaned and a bali of cooked rice sprinkled with butter is offered to Vishnu.
Then comes a circumambulation around the temple. After daksina, the officiating brahman's share of the sacrifice, is given, Vishnu is meditated upon as the personal manifestation of the sacrifice. Finally puspanjali, a handful of flowers, is offered to the image and the temple door is closed.
<i>Adherents</i>
Vaikhanasas are a tiny brahman community of about 2,500 families widely dispersed in South India at Vaishnava temples in Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, and parts of Karnataka (Welbon in Eliade 1987, Vol. 15, 165-6).
<i>Headquarters/Main Centre </i>
Tirupati, the famous Hindu pilgrimage centre in Andhra Pradesh, India.
08-15-2006, 08:35 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-15-2006, 09:21 AM by Bodhi.)
In response to some aspects of Singhi Kaya's post # 36.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Throughout his remarkable life, Ramakrishna remained illiterate, and wholly unfamiliar with both classical Hindu literature and philosophy, and the authentic teachings of the great acharyas who served as the guardians of those sacred teachings. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sri Ramakrishna was indeed not educated in the letters, but the author seems to imply that being an illiterate is a major hurdle on the path of spirituality and it actually caused Ramakrishna to deviate from the "authentic teachings of the great acharyas". I wish, author had also posted some examples of where his teachings (and that of Sri Swami Vivekananda) are contradictory to the classical and authentic teachings - to ilustrate his point.
According to traditional Hindu wisdom, all the Vidya is classified under Para and Apara. Para-vidya is laukik knowledge body, created by humans, and requires formal learning and instructions to gain it. Apara-vidya is paar-laukik, and does not requires cassical learning or learning of shastras. Apara vidya is gained by the practical sadhana under the grace of Guru or God - and while shastras may help in Sadhana, they are not a must.
Furthermore, Sanatan Dharma has left no ambiguity in pointing to the greatness of the "Experiencing" and "Knowing" rather than "Learning". "Bodh" is the goal not "Panditya". "Gyan" not "Vidvatta" (although Vidvatta as by-product of Sadhana does come by). Obviousely many great sages which Hindu dharma has produced were both learned as well as enlightened - like Ashtavakra, Adi Shankar, Thiru Valluvar. But on the other side, many saints were simply men of knowledge though not Panditya - just see the Bhaktamaal for examples of such gurus. Would you deny the greatness of Kabir as Guru just because he was not literate and had not learnt the Shastras? He says for himself "Masi Kagad Chhooyo nahi, kalam gahi nahi haath" (never touched ink paper or pen) and yet just take a glimpse of his literature to see the great synthesis of complex system of Hath Yog and Raj Yog. There is no contradiction between what he teached and Bhagvad Gita / Upanishads.
What does Upanishad say for people who value learning over gyan: maha-mooDham. Here is one quote:
andham tamah pravishanti ye vidyamupasate
tato bhooya iv te tamo ya u vidyayaam rataah.
(In short, they fall to deep darkness, who only worship learning)
Let me also remind you the famous anecdote of Sri Adi Shankar, who when encountered an old brahmin reciting Sanskrit, said "Bhaj Govindam Moodh Mate".
Coming back about Sri Ramakrishna. Yes he was an illiterate, but he was indeed a great sage, who simplified the spiritual sadhana for the modern age and modern men. Indeed he was simple and extremely intense and one might mistake him for a mad man. By looking at him when Vivekananda met for the first time, indeed he may have been very confused when he asked "have you seen God?". Remember Narendra was a man of great learning already - very well versed in vedanta thought. But one glimpse and when he heard the answer, "Yes I have seen God and I can show you too", all confusion must have been over.
Every religion has different layers of practice in it to offer. Largely, these layers are - cultural-traditional-ritualistic layer, theological-philosophical layer, and at core the spiritual layer. Spiritual content of the religion is the saar - the satva, and the core, while other layers are only to guard it. But with time, naturally, like all systems, religion also ossifies - and from time to time people get entangled in ritualistic, or cultral or philosophical layers and ignore the core of religion - the spirituality. Spiritual leaders, in those times, help us come back to the right path. (sambhavami yuge yuge). Krishna, Buddha, Mahaveer, Shankar, various Bhakta-Gurus and Sant-gurus of middle ages like Kabir, Nanak and lately Ramakrishna indeed served that purpose.
About boundaries. Indeed, true religion should not know any bundaries. Whole universe is one for the true religion. One that has "boundaries" can not be real religion. "Eko Brahma Dwiteeyo Naasti", "Ekam Satyam, Vipraah Bahudhaa vadanti", "All paths lead unto me like all rivers to the ocean - Krishna".
So when Manssor - a muslim - experiences Samadhi and says "Anal-Haq" which literally means "Aham Brahmasmi", will you just deny him saying he is faking Samadhi? (In fact Mansoor was indeed crusified by Mullas of Iran).
Among many, there is one huge difference between Hindu Sanatan Dharma and Abrahamic religions. Abrahamic religions - 1) reject change 2) reject all other religions as invalid. Hindu religion 1) accepts change brught to it by saints from time to time. Did not, while Jews crucified Jesus, Hindus worshipped Gautam Buddha? 2) accepts teachers of other faiths as valid and remains respectful or at least indifferent.
Now dont get me wrong. I am not saying we become muslims or christians. On the contrary. I am saying we become even better Hindus, even richer and even more spiritual. But I am indeed convinced we have to preserve the "universal" nature of our faith and fight the petty boundaries, which may naturally get created because of the present day conflicts with Islamists and Christianism.
Back to Ramakrishna and what Singhi Kaya has posted about him. I only wish we had more "data" rather than "conclusions", so that we can faithfully analyse what he is trying to say. Like what exactly are his teachings that contradict the "authentic" wisdom.
Let me just remind what Swami Vivekananda had said: "Whenever Hindus start feeling ashamed of their ancestor and start rejecting them, know that the end is near."
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am not saying we become muslims or christians. On the contrary. I am saying we become even better Hindus, even richer and even more spiritual.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Give me some concrete steps which will help me become "better".
From the little I know of him, I personally think RKP seems to have been a great Hindu. If he can give rise to such a student as Vivekananda, then he must have been a real Hindu.
Nevertheless, RKP's way should not become the only way for Bengal - if that means that Bengal becomes an easier target for ChristoIslamists. Hinduism must be a real hydra, multi-headed with regrowing heads and all - which are all ultimately part of the same entity.
<!--QuoteBegin-prem+Aug 15 2006, 12:24 AM-->QUOTE(prem @ Aug 15 2006, 12:24 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Singhi Kaya , can u please post the name of the author of above critique as well as the limitations/ boundaries of Rama and Krihsna and of the Snatan Dharma .
If Snatan Dharam is confined to boundaries, it shoud call itslef some other name as eternal cannot be limited by books,persons and personalities. I thonk the very quetsioning of Universlism in Snatan dharm is invalid and against its spirit of spritual enquiery thus making it equal to a 'sampardaya" or cult like Hare Krishna, Rajnesshims, Brahm Kumari etc..<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you are asking about the author of the article, it's in this current thread...go to the first page. You can see the original quote plus the link to his blog.
There is no real limitations of Rama and Krishna for they were God. Yet in their actions they strictly acted within the domains of dharma and did not embrace all parties in the field.
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Communism, fascism and nazism are also creations of God. Are you willing to admit them within your boundaryless universalism (which you also consider as Sanatana Dharma)? If your reservation is they killed people, let me tell you Islam and Xainity killed and brutally tortured and raped far far more. And brutality is a part of Koranism since it's creation ~ there is no cleaver way except being a moron to bypass it.(a general comment, no directed to anyone)
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There 2 aspects in this creation Sat and Asat (Gita Chapt 2). Sat is the real and eternal. Asat is the trancient. Sanatana Dharna is called Sanatan because it's rishi's many many mellinium ago found the true nature of existence in Sat and set up systems (not one) to establish the society and individuals in it. Sanatana is sanatan because it seeks the eternal truth (in real terms not words).
Universalism as I understand it is being ignorant of this distinction and taking everything under the sun which has the tag God (a man made word) attached to it to be same.
For example, the only reason why Koranism is a part of universalism and fascism is not is because Koranism claims to be the word of God.
So, the so called universal is just a word??!!
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08-15-2006, 07:11 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-15-2006, 07:12 PM by Bodhi.)
<!--QuoteBegin-mitradena+Aug 15 2006, 12:47 AM-->QUOTE(mitradena @ Aug 15 2006, 12:47 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I am not saying we become muslims or christians. On the contrary. I am saying we become even better Hindus, even richer and even more spiritual.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Give me some concrete steps which will help me become "better".
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Step 1, as always has been in Hindu Dharma - seek a sadguru who is enlightened and suitable to you. This is not an easy step. Also beware of false gurus. Step 2, in parallel probably, inculcate the Yam and Niyam - the universal values of all easetern religions, and foundation stone of all Sadhana. Then go whichever way the Guru leads you.
08-15-2006, 07:32 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-15-2006, 07:35 PM by Bodhi.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Husky+Aug 15 2006, 12:57 AM-->QUOTE(Husky @ Aug 15 2006, 12:57 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Hinduism must be a real hydra, multi-headed with regrowing heads and all - which are all ultimately part of the same entity.
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wow what an interesting way of putting it! That has been the way of Hindu. Thats the way of future.
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Don't you think step 1 & 2 can be interchanged given that finding an authentic sat-guru is so tricky these days??
And instead of Yama and Niyamas, I think Sri Krishna's Deva-Asur Sampad Bhibag Yog lists a much complete sets of qualities regarding what leads to truth and what leads to the path away from God.
Yama, Niyama is true but since some essential divine qualities (Like Tejas) has been skipped in the yogic yama and niyama, it's application in all aspects of life outside astanga yoga may make one weak. And it is a fully byakti dharma. Deva-Asur Sampad Vibhag Yog applies to a byakti and Samaj equally.
If Gita is like the common denominator of Sanatana Dharma, we would do better to stick by it beyond specific personal dharmas. We actually haven't done that since ... .
Various peoples have been more interested to claim Gita for their particular brand of philosophy (Advaita, Vdvaita even Kaula ...), very few have ever stood behind what Krishna himself had stood behind. With a very real Kurushetra in front of us (for so long) we have chosen to seek Kurkhestra in our minds, words and philosophies.
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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->wow what an interesting way of putting it! That has been the way of Hindu. Thats the way of future.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Things sound good in words...but when the concern is how many head we can have and not the goal...it may take time to realize many of the heads have been severed from the body.
Way of the Hindu is the truth and the goal (Atman) and not getting restricted by means.
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Way of the Hindu is the truth and the goal (Atman) and not getting restricted by means.
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And apply this to your arguments against RKP and his ways of teaching God.
He saw God in everything and evey thing was Godly for him because of His touch.
How could he live with boundaries ? A godly soul stuck in boundaries is contradiction in itself.
SInghi Kaya are we to accept Dr. Morales as a authority on God realized beings like RKP and VIvekananda? Has Morlaes seen God and experienced the Ultimate like the one he is questioning? The way of Snathan Dharam is not of the Islamic or semetic framework. Onlee the fanatic followers of egoistic (Humility , the first sign ripe soul) Prabupad or charltan ( no control over desires and Indriyas) Rajneesh or Sivanda (greedy) cultists etc will find solace in the exclusive fameworks proposed by supossed specialists. Snatani dont need to cut others down to show Snatan Dharma's greatness and all encompassing nature of Par-Brahm. The criticism of RKP is not onlee uncalled for but also asuric in nature with the potential of killing the spirit of enquiry regarding Divine thus making Snatan Dharma a theoratical one with dark dead end. Lets keep God as the centre point of SNatani and not a Book or Theory . Even Vedas has warned against this kind of threat.
08-16-2006, 12:20 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-18-2006, 08:22 AM by Bodhi.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Singhi Kaya+Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM-->QUOTE(Singhi Kaya @ Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Don't you think step 1 & 2 can be interchanged given that finding an authentic sat-guru is so tricky these days??[right][snapback]55659[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These days, those days, or any days - finding a suitable Guru is indeed very tricky. Even in the days of Siddhartha Gautam, he had to go from one Guru to the other a dozens of times not finding a suitable Guru. In Tretayug too, Janak had to struggle to find a suitable Guru before Ashtavakra himself came to him.
Yes indeed, identifying a right Guru is very difficult. But earth is never devoid of Gurus. And finding a guru is a must. Guru can not be substituted by anything easily, not for the ordinary minds. God also helps one in finding ones Guru, if there is the urge. In fact Guru is also on the look out for the seeker. (Incidently even Ramakrishna told Narendra when they met for the the first time - I was waiting for you, where were you?)
Step 1 and 2 are not sequencial and I had mentioned it already in my post. One can still live his life as per the ideals mentioned in shastras and parallely look out for the Guru. In Sant Marg this process is called Nij-Kripa, Ish-Kripa, Guru-Kripa. First seeker has to bestow grace upon himself by trying to become suitable for Sadhana, then God graces him by makig him meet his Guru, and ultimately Guru graces him by helping with God-realization/self-realization.
<!--QuoteBegin-Singhi Kaya+Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM-->QUOTE(Singhi Kaya @ Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->And instead of Yama and Niyamas, I think Sri Krishna's Deva-Asur Sampad Bhibag Yog lists a much complete sets of qualities regarding what leads to truth and what leads to the path away from God.[right][snapback]55659[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was only giving a suggestion to member Mitradena, when he asked the steps of being a "better" hindu, and yam-niyam were some of the basic starting points in my opinion. Means of acheiving yam-niyam may differ.
Yam and Niyam are neither "instead" nor exclusive with what Bhagvan Sri Krishna describes in Devasur Sampad Vibhag Yog (BG Chapter 16). If you want we can go into detail, but just go through that chapter and you would see how Sri Krishna describes all practical aspects of life - with no contradiction with Yams-Niyams at all. Like his wonderful explanation about "Daan" and you may argue where is Daan in Yam-Niyam. Daan is one mode of the "Tap" which is one of the Niyams. Likewise are other practical aspects of Yam-Niyam too.
In Shanti Parva of Mahabharat, Pitamah Bheeshma has referred to "YamNiyamam" as embodiment of Sri Krishna himself (read Vishnu Sahastranaamam).
<!--QuoteBegin-Singhi Kaya+Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM-->QUOTE(Singhi Kaya @ Aug 15 2006, 10:15 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Yama, Niyama is true but since some essential divine qualities (Like Tejas) has been skipped in the yogic yama and niyama, it's application in all aspects of life outside astanga yoga may make one weak. And it is a fully byakti dharma. Deva-Asur Sampad Vibhag Yog applies to a byakti and Samaj equally.
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Tejas skipped by Yam-Niyam
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Your comparing Tejas with Yam-Niyam shows that you have not understood Yam and Niyam. While Yam-Niyams are disciplines and restraints which are "practiced", "Tejas" is only a virtue and not a practice. A practicener may practice the Yams - Truthfulness, Non-violence, Non-stealing, Bramhacharya, non-accumulating and Niyams - cleaneliness, Contentment, Tapas, retrospection, and Ishwar-Pranidhan. On the other hand, Tejas is a divine virtue by which wrongful opponents become weak when confronted. How do you think should one "practice" the quality of Tejas that you think is "skipped" by Yam-Niyam? In fact, Tejas comes naturally to someone who follows Yam(brahmacharya) and Niyam(Tapasya). Example role models of Tejas - Bheeshma, Hanuman, Lakshman, Parashuram. And they are also role-models of fourth Yam-Brahmacharya and third Niyam-Tapasya.
Likewise some other divine virtues which you did not mention along with Tejas are Veeryam, Balam, Ojas, Manyur, and Sahyam (from the very famous Rigved prayer "Tejo Asi Tejo Mayi Dhehi, Veeryo Asi Veeryo Mayi Dhehi...) - and all of these virtues are surely inculcated by the the practice of Yam-Niyam. And yes, one may follow Sri Krishna's explaination of it, if that suits that person better. It really is most excellent explanation.
Yam-Niyam may make one weak!!
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Really!! Please explain/substanciate.
Vyakti Vs Samaj
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True Dharma can only be Vyaktigat or personal. In fact extremely personal. As many men that many paths without hindering each others - all leading unto same goal - anyways there is but only one goal. Can you quote Bhagvad Gita where it says "Samaj" has to fllow certain dharma? That concept - Dharma of samaj - is western in itself. In east, samaj is a convenient and logical system of "Samashti" allowing individuals (Vyashti) to follow their own individual Dharma peacefully.
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What is meant by "RANT" and why did you tag the text you posted as RANT? Unnecessary displays dwesha and anger on such a great forum that we have. I thought we were dis-passionately discussing an extremely serious and meaningful topic.
But post of yours is not alone. Here we go:
<!--QuoteBegin-prem+Aug 15 2006, 05:16 PM-->QUOTE(prem @ Aug 15 2006, 05:16 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Onlee the fanatic followers of egoistic (Humility , the first sign ripe soul)  Prabupad or charltan ( no control over desires and Indriyas) Rajneesh or Sivanda (greedy) cultists etc will find solace in the exclusive fameworks proposed by supossed specialists. Snatani dont need to cut others down to show Snatan Dharma's greatness
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Prem, I think this is both sad and strange. On one hand you say Sanatanees done have to cut others down, and yet you have hurled three stones to three great spiritual leaders in the previous sentance! Only displays an attempt of proving 'my well is the largest ocean of the world, all others are smaller'.
I can only remind what Yudhishthir had told Kauravs ad Pandavs - "Vayam Panch-adhikam Shatam" - we are one hundred plus five, when faced by an enemy.
Today all branches of Hindu/Indic/Sanatan/Sikh/Bauddha/Jain/etc/etc/etc are facing common enemies hell-bent on finishing this tree off, and here we are busy in showing each other's small branches down instead of saving the tree itself. Why should we also not say - 'Vayam Panch-adhikam Shatam' and discourage all voices of disunity???
Bodhi , great post!! ;-)
Samaj Dharam = Semetic Framework and dont work spiritually.
Just clarify, my provocation was done for a reason and without malice . The often repeated attack and undermining efforts on RKP Mission come periodically from certain quarters. Sad as it is but we must be on guard, mine was just a attempt to identify the disciples of great Sat Guru Dr. Morales.
On finding a true Guru, God Himslef is a True Guru to every seeker... onlee a question of asking. I am sure no one will be refused... even a Donkey.
Remind me of one of Parmahans Yogananda's disciple was advised by Vievekananda to look for Guru Yagananda to come to US in future. The Guru-Chelas relations are pre- ordained , there is no actively seeking and increasing number game.
http://www.muktabodha.org/index.htm
History of the Muktabodha Institute
The Muktabodha Institute was founded in 1997 by Gurumayi Chidvilasananda, the spiritual head of the path of Siddha Yoga meditation.
The Instituteâs origins are found in the educational vision contained in the teachings of Gurumayiâs guru, Swami Muktananda (1908-1982), who introduced the path of Siddha Yoga to the West.
This vision began to develop into well-defined academic projects in the late â80s. Later, as the scope of the work expanded, the Muktabodha Institute was created as an independent educational trust in India and as a non-profit educational organization in the United States
Given its origins and focus, it is appropriate that the Muktabodha Institute is engaged in exploring the relationship between analytic scholarship and the experiential knowledge of the religious practitioner.
The premise that there is a powerful synergy between them is the basis for the development of a new paradigm for the study and preservation of Indian religious thought.
The Institute supports this premise through its various project areas and also reflects this support through its chosen name: the Sanskrit term Muktabodha means âthe wisdom of the liberated oneâ and refers to an experiential state of supreme freedom which is delineated in detail in the Indian scriptures.
Muktabodha's Project Areas
The Institute supports its chosen focus through the following project areas:
Promoting the training of young scholars through educational programs such as seminars and grants of financial assistance
Translating and publishing important Sanskrit texts, particularly in the Shaiva and Shakta tantric traditions
Preserving and making accessible rare manuscripts and texts, in particular through an on-line digital library
Creating and supporting vedashalas, or traditional schools of Vedic studies, in India
Hindu Rituals and ROutines
what do u guys think about buddhism
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