<b>If they have time, what prevents the 800 million strong communities in India to throw out the Government which is not to their liking and in fact alleged to be acting in the interest of Muslims, Christians and Jews?
Several contributors to the forum have brought these charges in their blogs above. There is no divine force that has brought in any Government to power in India. Therefore, the obvious conclusion is that the present Government has also been voted to Power by the votes of a substantial number of Hindu voters. The votes of the minority community can affect the results of a few seats but it cannot bring any Political party or group to power.
Will any of the distinguished contributors throw some light as to how such string anti Hindu outfit has come to Power in India today.</b>
09-25-2006, 03:22 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2006, 03:30 AM by agnivayu.)
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the BJP still strongly supported by the urban middle class voters ? Wasn't the congress alliance elected by mostly rural voters who vote anti-incumbentent. In other words this group will vote for a different party in the next election, because the benefits of economic growth likely won't trickle to the rural areas yet.
I get the feeling that in general, Hindu Nationalists are steadily becoming stronger. I don't buy the western and leftist media propaganda that somehow Indians are moving away from pro Hindu movements.
Also don't forget that Abhrahamic fascists historically have had a lot more money than Hindus, so they are able to influence people's minds. Only in the last 10 years has "Hindu money" started to catch up and is starting to have an effect. We still need a Hindu "Fox News" style media outlets.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ravish+Sep 25 2006, 02:52 AM-->QUOTE(Ravish @ Sep 25 2006, 02:52 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>If they have time, what prevents the 800 million strong communities in India to throw out the Government which is not to their liking and in fact alleged to be acting in the interest of Muslims, Christians and Jews?
Several contributors to the forum have brought these charges in their blogs above. There is no divine force that has brought in any Government to power in India. Therefore, the obvious conclusion is that the present Government has also been voted to Power by the votes of a substantial number of Hindu voters. The votes of the minority community can affect the results of a few seats but it cannot bring any Political party or group to power.
Will any of the distinguished contributors throw some light as to how such string anti Hindu outfit has come to Power in India today.</b>
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Thanks chandramoulee.
Ravish,
Being religious and spending time with religious spiritual matters can't be equated with those using religion in political arena.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Therefore, the obvious conclusion is that the present Government has also been voted to Power by the votes of a substantial number of Hindu voters<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I'll concede that a 'substantial number of Hindus' too worked overtime under British to keep India enslaved for 250 years and the same 'substantial number of Hindus' fought alongside Mughal invaders. It's something worth thinking and exploring about.
I think it was Talveen Singh of Indian Express who questioned as to why it's easier in India to gather a crowd to burn effigies some Danish cartoonist (that one has never seen) compared to total apathy for protesting against govt inaction say after Mumbai train blasts.
I have pointed you to few threads where this discussion is more relevant. Perhaps you can answer a question by another postor as to why the present gov't expressed concern about Jews converting the so called lost tribe in Mizoram to Judaism from Christianity. Let's accept for arguments sake that the govt is Hindu, all govt babus too are Hindus and the judiciary too is Hindu.
<b>Dear Agnivayu,
I wish that your assumption was correct. Unfortunately, the BJP today is no longer the disciplined force that it used to be a decade ago. Perhaps being in power for six years at the Centre has made it to fall in line with other political parties of the country. The taste of office and power that came with the formation of the Government eroded the teachings of the RSS and also diluted the ideology. Many of the Leaders and their principle deputies got the taste of five star lives and in the process got involved in many worldly pleasures.
With the advent of economic prosperity, particularly in the Urban areas of the country, with the coming up of the beauty parlors, discos, credit card, live in relationship, higher divorce rate, the moral value and the sense of ethics of the younger generation of the Urban population has undergone a vast change since the General Elections of 1967.The reflection of the same culture has creped into the nationalist political system. Therefore, the nationalist politician of date is not sure that he will have the captive vote of the urban middle class. In fact, many in this class do not even care to go to the polling stations but sit down before the TV to see how the scene is unfolding.
Another aspect which we should not loose sight of in the changing characteristics of contemporary Indian politics is the emergence of the regional parties. In the years to come, they are likely to play an important role in any political dispensation which can form a majority in Parliament and rule the country. It is much easy to dislodge a national political party from Power in a State or to reduce its strength. However, the same is not the case with Regional parties who function on a rather limited agenda aimed at exploiting and addressing the regional problems, which have a much more relevance to the voters of that particular region.
Since there is no consolidation of the nationalist political forces (basically by this terminology one means Hindu political forces), all the political parties will try to keep the minority vote with them. Once the elections are announced, each political formation will try to compete with each other in promising the haven to the members of the minority community in general and to the Muslim voters in particular. In the process whichever political formation is voted to power tries to increase the privileges and facilities for the members of the minority community, often at the detriment of the majority community. This is a political necessity and every political entity for its very survival has to do such things in India.
Another point raised by you is in relation to the rural voters. At present, they are more influenced by the regional leaders rather than by the election manifesto of the National Parties. With regard to rural development program, they are progressing all over the country but as always with varying degree of success. Many of these programs are decade old and now at the stage of completion. Therefore, it is unlikely that the rural population will overwhelmingly vote against the present Government. Another very crucial factor will be how disorganized the BJP will be on the eve of the next general election and with whom the major regional parties like the DMK, Telegu Desum ,Assam Gano Parishad etc will line up. By all indications the RJD,SP and the Muslim League will either remain with the Congress or may set up another front, which may by default improve the chances of BJP.</b>
There is something here that we <b>have</b> to understand.
1. Typically, the way we have been informed by education is that Hindus are approximately 75-80% of India's population.
However, religious Hindus are less than a majority in India. I don't think they form even a plurality. That should be our working assumption.
Most urban people have very little connection to either the Hindu understanding of God and life, or the normal detail of day-to-day Hindu ritual. And, as people migrate to urban areas, this number will increase.
I think we should start with the following number: <b>the percentage of lay religious Hindus in India is about 25% of the population, or less.</b>
2. Of the remaining, most adults have kept religion very far away from their ordinary lives - except marriage and the death ceremonies, no actual Hindu ceremony is performed for/by these people. Celebrating Diwali with firecrackers does not count. In effect, since most adults have kept their lives and their children away from actual religious activity, the children grow up without any emotional investment in the faith of their forefathers. They find the marriage ceremonies weird and hugely inconvenient, and the death ceremonies very traumatizing - because they don't know the significance of either. Even these ceremonies they see less and less of, because they have smaller families. So, really, in most cases, the first person to actually have a long talk with them about God, is usually a missionary.
3. Education in Convent schools: Education in convent schools causes two problems:
a) The student's dominant view of religion comes from Christianity. As if, that were the default religion of the world. His understanding of Christianity is usually much better than his understanding of Hinduism. (it was true, atleast then, in my case). And his understanding of Christianity and its traditions comes from those <i>uniquely equipped to teach it, the trained corps of missionaries</i>. He becomes used to seeing these people as naturally deserving respect, and as fundamentally good people. And this attitude of respect to these missionaries will naturally meet with approval from his parents.
b) Even if he doesn't convert, he develops a broad-mindedness to the concept of religion that is debilitating to Hinduism. He sees all religions as the same, except that he sees Christianity as fashionable and as the "in" thing. I will talk about this broad-mindedness in my next point.
4. For a religion to survive as a living and vibrant tradition, it requires a certain level of narrow-mindedness in its adherents. Usually, the ultra-modern set make a fetish of their broad-mindedness. This makes sense, in a way. A broad-minded person is likely to flourish in a globalized world, but not the ideas he is so broad-minded about. A good example are the Parsis. Most Parsis are urbane, tolerant and broad-minded. They have done very well for themselves. On the other hand, their religion in India is close to extinction. So, one must be broad-minded about most other things, but not about the things that one values - in this case, Hinduism and the Hindu lifestyle.
A true, traditional Hindu should be narrow-minded - in the sense that he dismisses other religions completely, is intolerant of Islam and Christianity, and is openly hostile to its proselytizers. This does not mean that he has to react violently, but he should be so hostile that a missionary should find it an unpleasant experience to meet with him.
A good example is a religious Muslim. He is pretty narrow-minded. He will normally do slightly less well in life than a "broad-minded Hindu", but his religion is likely to be the one that will survive any civilizational conflict. A jihadi is extremely narrow-minded, so the ideology of Jihad has a distinct likelihood of being destroyed, but not the religion of Islam - and that is because of the religious Muslim, who is consistently more narrow-minded than most religious people.
Also, perhaps, having family friends among members of other religions is not a good idea. An adult may feel free to have friends among Muslims or Christians, but a watching child may get the idea that mixing with people belonging to other religions is just fine, and they are just like us. This tends to give the wrong sort of ideas to young children. So, limiting one's contact to members of one's own community, especially at home, is a good idea. Leave "inter-religious dialogue" to those who have the time, inclination and maturity to do a good job.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Atal exposed Pak role in encouraging terror: BJP </b>
Pioneer News Service | New Delhi
What's Musharraf talking about, scoffs Rajnath
The BJP on Monday trashed Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf claim that Kargil conflict had compelled India to take initiative on resolving the Kashmir dispute.
<b>Claiming that the 1999 Kargil conflict was a diplomatic and military victory for India, BJP chief Rajnath Singh asserted that the then Vajpayee Government had successfully convinced the international community about Pakistan's support to cross-border terrorism after the Kargil events</b>.
<b>"All his claims are baseless. On the contrary, the Vajpayee Government made it known to the world after the 1999 events that Pakistan was responsible for cross-border terrorism and was a centre of terror,"</b> Singh said.
Refuting Musharraf claim in his biography Line of Fire, that the moves to find a solution to the Kashmir issue were prompted by the Kargil events, the BJP chief accused the Pakistani leader of lying about the outcome of the Kargil conflict, and insisted Islamabad lost both militarily and diplomatically in the conflict.
<b>"The truth of the matter is Pakistan lost while India won. It was also a diplomatic victory for India when the world came to know about Pakistan's role in encouraging terror,"</b> Singh said as he maintained New Delhi should suspend CBMs with Islamabad until it dismantles terror infrastructure on its soil. "<b>I would like to state emphatically that whatever movement has taken so far in the direction of finding a solution to Kashmir is owed considerably to the Kargil conflict," </b>the Pakistani President wrote.
Singh also attacked Prime Minister Manmohan Singh for his remarks in Nainital that militants' infiltration from across the LoC had come down, citing Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad's comments that it resumed three months ago.
<b>"The Prime Minister is hoodwinking the nation on internal security. He says infiltration has come down, but Azad has said just the opposite,"</b> the BJP leader remarked.
He also flayed the Prime Minister for his comments during his Havana trip that Pakistan too was a victim of terror. Singh warned that New Delhi should not trust Musharraf, with whom the Prime Minister had agreed to set up a joint anti-terror mechanism, in the light of the recent bomb blasts in Mumbai and Malegaon despite his promise in 2004 that he would not allow anti-India terror activities on Pakistani soil.
<b>"On our part, we will reach out to the public to expose the UPA Government's hollow claims about internal security," </b>the BJP leader told the media as his party launched its weeklong Vande Mataram campaign here.
Symbolising Hindutva, the campaign comes ahead of Assembly elections in several states, including Uttar Pradesh.
Also, BJP leader Kalyan Singh, who has been named the party's chief ministerial post if voted to power in Uttar Pradesh, is due to set out on an Ayodhaya Yatra on Tuesday.
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From Pioneer, States news Section, 26 Sept., 2006
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->'Hindutva-media dialogue need of the day'Â
PT Bopanna | Bangalore
A dialogue on bridging the media and Hindutva divide, held in Bangalore, has come around to the view that there was a need for introspection to build a better India, instead of "the rightest being termed as loonies".
While columnist S Gurumurthy observed a 'disconnect' between the media and the Hindutva brigade, the Editor of Deccan Herald KN Shanth Kumar disagreed with the view that Hindutva was the favourite whipping boy of the media. <b>The seminar on "Bridging the Media-Hindutva Divide" was organised by Vishwa Samvada Kendra, a Sangh Parivar outfit, on Sunday.</b>
<b>Inaugurating the seminar, the Deccan Herald editor </b>opined the Hindutva ideology had gained more from media exposure than any other stream of political thought in the last 25 years.
Pointing out that the Indian media had not singled out the ideology of Hindutva for criticism, <b>Shanth Kumar noted that the media had been especially kind in its reportage on former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee.</b> <i>{What does he mean? I thought ABV hardly got any room to act with constant questioning by the media?}</i>He added: "If the media has been erred in its representation of the Hindutva, it has been more on the side of generosity."
Gurumurthy called upon the Hindutva ideologues to be 'more strategic' in their approach to the media.
<b>Calling for an understanding between the media and Hindutva in the larger interest of the nation, Gurumurthy felt the existing divide was mainly because of the 'disconnect'. "The reasons for the disconnect was because of the colonial mindset where Indian mind had not been de-colonised yet. Secularism is distorted in the country," </b>he added.
<b>Dr Chandan Mitra,</b> the Editor-in-Chief of The Pioneer, in his valedictory address, <b>opined there was an attempt to 'demonise the Right by the leftists', especially in the English media. </b>
Dr Mitra underlined the need for a dialogue between the media and the Hindutvawadis. "There is a need for introspection to build a better India, instead of the Rightists being termed as loonies," he said.
Noted television anchor <b>Deepak Thimya felt there was a mutual suspicion between the media and the Hindutva brigade, and expressed the view that the saffron brigade too had contributed in no small measure for this suspicion.</b>
Among those who spoke at the seminar include A Surya Prakash, author and columnist, Vardesh Hiregange of the Mass Communication College, Manipal, Tarun Vijay of Panchajanya, and NS Ashok Kumar of Bangalore University. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So there is awareness in Hindutva circles of the media disconnect. Now for someone to make the disconnect clear. For this it is essential to know the Indian social groups and how they are connected to the West and the East.
I had started a thread to discuss the soceity trends, and economical changes. Let us continue there if you want:
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.ph...wtopic=1507&hl=
ADMINS, can you please move all the above posts not related to "BJP Future" to that thread? Thanks.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.ph...wtopic=1507&hl=
ADMINS, can you please move all the above posts not related to "BJP Future" to that thread? Thanks.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Moved from General discussion to Indian Culture.
Above link is working.
<b>Shourie for PM?</b>
<i>Why not? He is perhaps the best candidate the BJP offers for the 2009 elections</i><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->What about Shourie?
Shourie himself would be surprised. He has never pushed himself in the PM race like Mahajan did or Jaitley and Swaraj continue to do. He is strictly not a people's person. He is a technocrat like Manmohan Singh but more rounded. He knows his economics as well as he knows law. He is as comfortable with security issues as he would be with trade matters. Indeed, there is nothing in government that he won't excel at.
He is a class above P.Chidambaram, and that is saying a lot. Chidambaram was a good trade minister, but not tough during the earliest WTO negotiations. He is an average finance minister, overshadowed by Manmohan Singh. Shourie would make an excellent finance minister, and being so thorough, he would be much better than Chidambaram at trade. Or home. Or the foreign ministry. Anywhere. Remember too. Shourie is a bona fide scholar. He holds an economics Ph.D. from Syracuse University.
Shourie is a fit because with someone handling party affairs, he is left free to govern. The RSS cannot be wished away after it perceived the six years of the NDA to be wayward. This arrangement, with a split between party and government leadership, appears like Manmohan Singh's arrangement with Sonia Gandhi. She is in charge here. The RSS would be if the BJP returned to power. As good or bad as the present arrangement is, the one with the BJP won't get any better or worse. But in Arun Shourie, you will have an outstanding PM candidate. Relatively young. Honest. Tough. Visionary. And deep. Arun Shourie is a deep man.
He doesn't come without disqualifications. He has never fought direct elections. He is not your average politician, which may indeed be a qualification. His negotiation skills are untested, although he can be persuasive. When he speaks in the Rajya Sabha, he commands complete attention. All said, in the circumstances, he seems the best suited BJP candidate for 2009.
<b>For emergent India, he is quite a remarkable prime minister to have</b>. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shourie has all the qualities listed, and he is exremely articulate. We need a person who can do things to Mush without vaseline and Mush does not even know that no vaseline was used. Arun S (good name <!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) can do that.
09-30-2006, 07:22 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-30-2006, 07:23 AM by acharya.)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7...diBombay1&hl=en
VIDEO OF MODI SPEECH IN MUMBAI AFTER THE BLAST
Speech of Modi in Mumbai after Chain Blast in Train
<!--QuoteBegin-acharya+Sep 29 2006, 06:52 PM-->QUOTE(acharya @ Sep 29 2006, 06:52 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7...diBombay1&hl=en
VIDEO OF MODI SPEECH IN MUMBAI AFTER THE BLAST
Speech of Modi in Mumbai after Chain Blast in Train
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If you understand hindi you have got to hear this speech !!
My favorite statement -> when i went to Assam people in all villages would come up to me and ask me to say something about bangladeshis and i told them, look Assam and Gujarat are in the same situation, you have bangladesh as a neighbour and we have pakistan as neighbor, both try their best to destroy us, the only difference is you are harrassed by them while they are harrassed by me.. <!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Second rung has its say in BJP tickets </b>
Pioneer News Service | New Delhi
Varun out, Rampal in Vidisha; Shahnawaz Hussain gets Bhagalpur seat
Generation Next has finally begun to assert itself within the Bharatiya Janata Party. The message was loud and clear on Friday when BJP veterans were forced to accommodate the wishes of State unit leaders in finalising the candidates for the three Lok Sabha by-polls taking place on November 6.
........
The party has decided to field Kapoor Chand from Bada Malhera Assembly seat that BJP rebel leader Uma Bharti vacated after she was expelled from the party. Sahdev Khake would contest from Talsera, a Scheduled Tribe reserved seat, in Orissa. "<b>There was total unanimity among the election committee members over the selection of the candidates. The party would win all the seats," said general secretary Arun Jaitley. </b>
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BJP is nowadays making good hue and cry over the Afzal guru fiasco. But all that is a purely nationalistic stance. BJP is not going to get to power just by that stance. They need to combine their hindu roots with nationalism.
One easy way could have been to compare the media's and politicians' crocodile tears for a convicted terrorist Afzal guru, and relative silence or open jeering in the case of innocent kanchi Shankaracharya's arrest.
Don't give people simple absolutes. People lose track of scales to compare things with pretty fast. Give them something to compare against. Otherwise memories being short, and media/politician ethics being stretchable, people are given an overwhelming drama imprisoned within a manufactured snapshot.
Dear Ashokji,
The expectation of the supporters of BJP was very high when BJP as the main coalition partner formed the government and ruled India for six years. This expectation was based on the fact that it being a cadre based political party having close connections with the RSS will be more responsible and receptive to the needs and aspirations of those who voted it to power. Unfortunately, once the leaders got taste of power they got into a mad rush for high life and material gain, thus alienating themselves from the main vote bank of the party. Naturally it got reflected in the result of the next general election. Once the credibility is lost, it would take sometime for the party to stage a come back. However, at present the problem is further compounded by the internal fights and power struggle. In such a situation it becomes necessary to make an issue out of every situation with the hope that it becomes a rallying point.
The RSS expectations were also unrealistic especially since the NDA was a coalition and the BJP in it did not have a proper majority to make the changes that the RSS was wanting.
The defeat of the NDA last time was really due to the rout of the TDP in Andhra Pradesh for variuos reasons-CBN hubris, farmer suicides and development. Had the TDP got even half the seats that it lost the NDA grouping would have the required largest single block and formed the govt.
The lack of support by RSSand others is typical of how Indian groups operated throughout history. By not extending their whole hearted cooperation, the groups to show their pique or self importance have managed to bring about the worst non-performing, place holding government in India's history.
If you look at every major defeat of the India the root cause was at a critical juncture one group or the other to gain marginal advantage in their perception had withheld their support and ensured the defeat of those they felt had slighted them. The end result is that it brings to power those interests that pursue the groups with more zeal than the defeated one. This is because the new party in power knows it has to defeat the groups or it will in turn get affected later. So it is a lose-lose all the way.
This gets repeated due to lack of or sense of history. And the teachers are there to ensure that history is learnt the worng way.
2009 is still away and public's memory is short. Yes, if elections were to be held today, every issue counts. In the long run, I c 3rd front imbibing CPM as a force to reckon with. This may be at the cost of both BJP (NDA) and Cong (UPA). So, for all practical purposes, BJP may have to do on it's own and prepare itself for the same though state politics may continue based on alliances.
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