Historicity Of Jesus

01-03-2007, 07:35 AM

This topic is for collecting articles regarding historicity of jesus.

01-03-2007, 07:37 AM

Found an interesting review.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ric...esuspuzzle.html

rebuttal from author can be found at

http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/CarrierComment.htm

Author of the book has website at

http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/

01-03-2007, 07:48 AM

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

01-03-2007, 10:06 PM

Can we post articles exposing the origin of Christmas here?

Basically trying to prove Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus' birthday.

Shambhu · (This post was last modified: 01-03-2007, 11:52 PM by Shambhu.)

Good topic..once the discourse among religions gets to scientific basis/archeology (starting 50 years from for the Hindu/Atheists to be regarded as a tiny but workable "critical" mass, IMEstimation, and 50 more years to gain momentum) all creatures can hope to be saved from johnny-come-lately "religions"...

Thankfully he real deal on Islam is becoming more and more clear by the day (thanks to 9/11 etc. and to the Shia-Sunni pleasantries)...so when Xtians get to know how they have been scammed, they will not turn to Islam..

Did Jesus Exist?
Christianity is based on Jesus: Proof of JC's existence central to Xtainity

gangajal · 01-04-2007, 03:59 AM

QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Jan 3 2007, 07:37 AM)Found an interesting review.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ric...esuspuzzle.html

rebuttal from author can be found at

http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/CarrierComment.htm

Author of the book has website at

http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/
[right][snapback]62697[/snapback][/right]


The Incredible shrinking son of man
How reliable is the Gospel tradition?

by Robert M Price is a tour de force. Robert M Price has a web site at
www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-06-2007, 12:45 PM by Husky.)

This book from the late 19th century is considered a classic, highly reliable text by many. (I had tried to obtain a copy earlier, but it was hard to track down, being out of print then.)

The following is from http://freetruth.50webs.org/B2d.htm
A Short History of the Bible, Being A Popular Account of the Formation and Development of the Canon, by Bronson C. Keeler:
QUOTEThe Authorities. The writings of the Christian Fathers, the ecclesiastical history of Eusebius - the oldest Christian history now extant - and the modern works, On the Canon of the New Testament, by Brooke Foss Westcott, D.D., and The Canon of the Bible, by Prof. Samuel Davidson, D.D., LL.D., are the sources from which the information must chiefly be drawn.

As some of the statements from Prof. Davidson will appear to the general reader quite remarkable, a word or two in explanation may be necessary. He is an Englishman, in the recognized head and front of the Protestant students of the world. He is eighty-three years of age, has spent a life in the study of these topics, is one of the ablest if not the ablest authority now living on the subject of the canon ... He was requested by the editors of the new edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica to write the article on the Canon for that work, and accepted the commission, supposing that what they desired was the facts. He told how the Bible had been made up, what books had been put in at different times and what left out, and that the Bible had not always consisted of just the books now in it. When the editors read the article, they declined to publish it as it was. They "mutilated" it, as Prof. Davidson says, and what was left after the eliminating process was completed now appears in the Encyclopedia as the article on the Canon. Prof. Davidson then published the original in book form, entitling it The Canon of the Bible, and in the preface he tells why he issued it. It is from that work that I quote so frequently.

The inexperienced person has little idea of the difficulty which the critical party finds in getting its facts before the public; nor of the systematic suppression used by the Christian press and clergy to prevent unpleasant truths concerning the Christian religion from coming out. There is not an orthodox religious newspaper in the world that will publish the facts concerning the origin of the Bible, which are given in these pages; there is scarcely a magazine in America that will publish them; and it is but recently that any newspaper would do so. Men who know the Christian theology to be untrue, have to get their audience as best they can.
-- A Short History of the Bible, Bronson C. Keeler, 1881
QUOTEThose graduating in religious studies from every major university in America, as well as every major theological seminary that is independent of Christian financial pressure, know certain facts to be true.
They know that:
Â Â - The entire bible is saturated with common mythological themes, from the creation and flood myth to virgin birth and resurrected hero mythology.
Â Â - The stories of the patriarchs in the Old Testament are known as 'temple legends' to enhance the history of the Hebrew people and are mostly fictional.
Â Â - The gospels were not written by anyone who knew Jesus personally.
Â Â - The 'Christ' myths and formulas are direct copies of Zoroastrian myths adopted by the Jesus sect.
Â Â - These facts, with others, have been known for years, and taught by internationally respected scholars from major universities world wide.
Religiously educated clergy, through the sin of omission and silence, yet continue to promote superstition.
-- William Edelen, Presbyterian and Congregational minister (1999)Link http://www.secweb.org/index.aspx-action=...id=723.htm

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-06-2007, 12:53 PM by Husky.)

The page http://freetruth.50webs.org/B2d.htm "NT and OT scholarship" is wholly useful. Lots of book suggestions (both New testament and Old Testament). Some of them are very good.

The page also contains jewels like:
QUOTENot only have Adam and Eve and the flood story passed over to mythology, but we can no longer talk about a time of the patriarchs. There never was a 'United Monarchy' in history and it is meaningless to speak of pre-exilic prophets and their writings.
... the Bible's 'Israel' [is] a literary fiction ...
We can now say with considerable confidence that the Bible is not a history of anyone's past.
-- Thomas L. Thompson, Professor of Old Testament at the University of Copenhagen and one of the leading biblical archaeologists in the world
And very good book:
QUOTEThe Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Neil Asher Silberman and Israel Finkelstein - online summary.
The authors, who are directors of archaeological institutes, are authorities concerning the archaeology of early Palestine.
The book discusses how archaeology has shown that there is no evidence for the existence of:
Â Â - Abraham and any of the Patriarchs
Â Â - Moses and the Exodus
Â Â - The period of Judges and the united monarchy of David and Solomon.
Doubting the Story of Exodus - L.A. Times News, April 13, 2001
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEThe modern archeological consensus over the Exodus is just beginning to reach the public.
...
In a new book this year, "The Bible Unearthed," Israeli archeologist Israel Finklestein of Tel Aviv University and archeological journalist Neil Asher Silberman raised similar doubts and offered a new theory about the roots of the Exodus story. The authors argue that the story was written during the time of King Josia of Judah in the 7th century BC--600 years after the Exodus supposedly occurred in 1250 BC--as a political manifesto to unite Israelites against the rival Egyptian empire as both states sought to expand their territory.</div>Unfortunately, the web page from which I pasted the above doesn't stress that archaeology has not merely found an 'absence of evidence' of Abraham, exodus and the rest. It has in fact proven they did not exist/did not happen. (That is, archaeology has revealed such things as places that were supposed to have been greatly populated during time period Y-Z according to the bible, never were and vice-versa. No such cities, no such places, no such events...) This should have been made clear.

Probably in (early) Judaism all these events had some double meaning, some spiritual significance or learning. However, some Jewish groups never accepted the Mosaic material: the Samaritans, who still don't use all of the religious literature of mainstream Judaism.
Christianity (and the other plagiarist, Islam), having blindly copied things word for word from Jewish literature (and even copying was difficult for them it seems, as they introduced errors into the original material), took all this literally and built their whole religion around it.

Good reading:
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/nativity.html "A Nativity Potpourri"
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/ozjesus.html "where jesus never walked"
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/twelve.html "The Twelve: Further Fictions from the new testament"
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html "Did jesus exist"
The above are articles by Frank R. Zindler. From memory, he has translated stuff from Hebrew and Latin. And I think he knows Greek as well. He also translated some bible scholarship work from German into English. He is "a member of ... The Society of Biblical Literature". So not a hack.

Also, the section 'Myth' is quite good at What They Don't Tell about christoterrorism. It's 4 pages, the other three being:
http://freetruth.50webs.org/B2a.htm "Historic?" - about jeebus
http://freetruth.50webs.org/B2b.htm "Early Christianity" - little that a christian today would recognise. Includes Apocryphal Gospels.
http://freetruth.50webs.org/B2c.htm "The four canonical Gospels, the Acts and Paul's Epistles" and "Apostles"
The links off these pages are useful.

EDIT:
Post 4, regarding 'christmas':
All christos in the west know, leastways in Europe and Australia and thereabouts. I hear there's still some ignorant christos talking about 'putting the christ back into christmas' in the US, but frankly, everyone makes fun of American christos, so I am ignoring them.

This Norwegian site has a good page on it: http://www.bandoli.no/christmas.htm

And here's that early christian terrorist st john Chrysostom admitting how they stole christmas from the mithraists:
QUOTE<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE4th century Bishop [and Saint] John Chrysostom writes:
"On this day also the Birthday of Christ was lately fixed at Rome in order that while the heathen were busy with their profane ceremonies, the Christians might perform their sacred rites undisturbed. They call this the Birthday of the Invincible One; but who is so invincible as the Lord? They call it the Birthday of the Solar Disk, but Christ is the Sun of Righteousness."Link
The "Invincible One" that Chrysostom referred to was the deity Sol Invictus Mithras - Invincible Sun Mithra, and his Birthday was called Natalis Solis Invicti (see Dominus and Natali).</div>And here's hints dropped by the Catholic Encyclopaedia (not to be trusted when they are waving their own flag according to Joseph McCabe; and even in their admissions of guilt, plagiarism, criminality they are far from being complete or honest):
QUOTEThe birth of Christ was assigned the date of the winter solstice (December 25 in the Julian calendar, January 6 in the Egyptian), because on this day, as the Sun began its return to northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithras celebrated the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (Birthday of the Invincible Sun). On December 25, 274, [Roman Emperor] Aurelian had proclaimed the Sun God the principal patron of the Empire and dedicated a temple to Him in the Campus Martius. Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the Sun was particularly strong at Rome.
-- New Catholic Encyclopaedia (Vol. III, p.656, 1967 ed.) ( http://freetruth.50webs.org/B1b.htm#Christmas )
Actually, that's Dies Natalis Dei Solis Invicti - Invincible Sun God's Birth Day. But, can't expect the holy catholic encyclopaedia to recognise any other God than their invented jeebus.

01-06-2007, 01:00 PM

An Examination of the "Evidence" for Jesus
This is very good. Lists how none of it is admissable or reliable. Most of the 'testimonies' have been doctored by the oh so reliable Church.

01-06-2007, 07:36 PM

THE MYTH OF THE HISTORICAL JESUS

01-06-2007, 09:29 PM

Two good books:

"Inventing Christmas: How Our Holiday Came to Be" by Jock Elliott

http://www.amazon.com/Inventing-Christmas-...2979015-5632949

Quotes:

"Most of our Christmas customs," he explains, "were
invented in an amazingly short twenty-five-year
period, from 1823-1848-a sort of `Big Bang' of our
Christmas."


Another from the "Battle for Christmas" by Stephen
Nissenbaum :-

http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Christmas-Ste...m/dp/0679740384

"Christmas was set at December 25 in the fourth
century, not for any biblical link with Christ's
birth, but because the church hoped to annex and
Christianize the existing midwinter pagan feast."

Shambhu · (This post was last modified: 01-10-2007, 01:04 AM by Shambhu.)

Re: K Ram's link (2 posts above)

I like how the author tells us to ask missionaries point blank about proof for the exisence of this "jesus" character. Good point to keep banging these missionaries' useless heads against.

Some yrs ago, on a midwest Univ campus, a white missionary had asked me, "Would it make a difference to you if Jesus existed or not?" Now that I think about it, his question means that these buggers had been told by someone (like the Jewish author of the K Ram article) that jesus and unicorns have something in common, and the missionaries were calibrating and evaluating people's responses so as to come up with new strategies of lying to convert souls...

ramana · (This post was last modified: 01-10-2007, 02:19 AM by ramana.)

We need to understand the difference between the message of Jesus and Pauline Christianity which is a political movement under the guise of religion just as a later version Islam is.

Also useful and informative is the M.J. Akbar's Op-Ed in Deccan Chronicle,

QUOTEMusings by MJ Akbar from Deccan Chronicle 31 Dec 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Yearend jottings
Byline by M.J. Akbar

This column was written before the break for Id and before news of Saddam Husseinâs death by victorâs justice was known. A piece on Saddam Hussein will appear in this space next week.

Some odds and ends from a jumble of books picked up during a yearâs rummage of bookshops. Opening thought: can any piece of information be totally useless? The emphatic answer is no.

First dip: 1215, the year of Magna Carta. A thirteenth century British monk, Jocelin of Brakelond, worried about his abbeyâs debts, answered, tangentially, a minor query. He recorded: âThere is an English tradition by which every year on the day of Our Lordâs Circumcision, 1 January, the abbot, as lord, is presented with gifts by a great many people.â The Jewish circumcision is on the seventh day after birth. When and why did the Church stop the Abrahamic practice of circumcision, possibly to create a different identity for the new faith? That answer will come, hopefully, from next yearâs reading list.

There isnât that much difference between Platoâs ideal society and the Hindu caste system. In both, a rigid hierarchy keeps society stable and every man in his place. The four Greek divisions are sage, warrior, trader and menial, a precise mirror of brahman, kshatriya, vaisya and dalit. In Plato, property does not change hands; a class of wealth, rooted in land has been the norm rather than the exception till Marx smashed the class ceiling. The fatal flaw in perfectionist Plato is the ban on anything new, even in poetry and music. Old is romantic; new is growth rate.

Which city was the real capital of the British Raj? There was no confusion in the East India Company days: Calcutta. But once the north came under Sahib sway, the government spent seven months in cool Simla and only five in Calcutta. The choice of Delhi, far closer to Simla, was announced in 1911 during the visit of King George V and Queen Mary; the new capital would be a symbol of imperial power and British superiority, another Constantinople or Rome, designed in the âGrand Mannerâ.

A debate arose over whether the look should be âIndo-Saracenicâ, Mughal, Rajput or Renaissance classic. The much-vaunted Sir Edwin Landseer Lutyens dismissed Indian architecture as âcumbersome, poorly coordinated and tiresomeâ; Hindu architecture was âveneered jointryâ and the domes of Delhiâs mosques were mere turnips.Â The Viceroy, Lord Hardinge, thought such sentiments a bit thick, given that the bill
for British grandeur was paid by India.Â Herbert Baker, Lutyensâ less famous colleague, touched up New Delhiâs pillars with lotuses, cobras, elephants, bulls and bells.

AÂ useful thought from Kipling for both my fellow journalists and our honourable readers:
Men who spar with Government need to back their blows
With something more than ordinary journalistic prose.

Durru Shehvar, Princess of Berar, daughter of Abdulmecid, the last Ottoman Caliph, was born in 1912, married to the heir of the Nizam of Hyderabad in 1931, and died in February this year in London. Her legal adviser, Walter Monckton, commented, âI learnt from her what any person must learn who has English friends â how unnecessary it is to talk just for the sake of talking, and that there is no unfriendliness and there would be no awkwardness or embarrassment in silence.â She called it a Muslim way of life.

AÂ return to that old favourite, Philip Woodruffâs The Guardians, resurrected a few gems:
l âHuman nature changes when the Sind border meets Punjab, on a line east of Kandahar.â
l After victory in 1857, the British Army decided that all gunners would be British.
l Sir Robert Montgomery, lieutenant governor of Punjab during the uprising, thought John Lawrence, victor of Delhi, was an old woman because Lawrence had not razed the Jama Masjid to the ground.
l Sir Alfred Lyall, one of Montgomeryâs successors in Punjab, noted, ruefully, âOne thing is sure; the natives all discuss our rule as a transitory state.â
l Shiva cannot be defeated because he is god of destruction as well as the phallus.

Charles Goodyear, impoverished and manic, created vulcanised rubber by accident when, after years of experiments, he dropped sulphur on India rubber. So did he become a tycoon overnight? No. His patent was stolen by better, if unscrupulous, businessmen. Goodyear never owned any part of the company that still bears his name. Tycoon, by the way, is an American word of Japanese origin, from taikun, or military chief.

Flynt Leverett, former senior director for Middle East affairs at the American National Security Council and senior fellow at Brookings Institutionâs Saban Center for Middle East Policy, wrote in the International Herald Tribune on 25 January 2006: âDuring its five years in office, the (Bush) administration has turned away from every opportunity to put relations with Iran on a more positive trajectory. Three examples stand out.â Which are they? After 9/11 Iran offered help against the Taliban, but Bush decided to include Iran in the âaxis of evilâ in his State of the Union address in 2002.

In the spring of 2003, Tehran sent a proposal through the Swiss for comprehensive negotiations, acknowledging that it would have to discuss its weapons programme and support for anti-Israel groups. The Bush administration snubbed the Swiss diplomats. In October 2003 Iran suspended enrichment of uranium to pursue talks, but Bush refused to join the European initiative for a dialogue. In the same month Prince Saud al-Faisal, Saudi foreign minister, noted archly that a nuclear strike against Iran would probably kill as many Palestinians as Israelis, and if it missed destroy some Arab nation. Blaming Israel for starting the nuclear race in the region, he suggested a nuclear-free gulf, followed by a nuclear-free region.

Note: by the end of the year Egypt had signed a deal with China for nuclear reactors â for peaceful purposes, of course. Saudi Arabia was also beginning to see the merits of âpeacefulâ nuclear energy.

Do you agree with this old Arab proverb: In every head there is some wisdom? Prince Charles, patron of the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, quoted the proverb in a lecture on âIslam and the Westâ at the Sheldonian Theatre, Oxford on 27 October 1993, a copy of which was given to me thirteen years after the event by Dr Farhan Nizami, who chairs the Centre and is nurturing it into a wonderful institution.

The Prince, of course, was being modest, British, self-deprecatory. But is the subject, theme of a million seminars long before 9/11 (remember 1993? The whole Muslim world had lined up alongside America against Saddam just after it had cooperated with America to defeat the Soviet Union in Afghanistan), all that wise? Islam is a faith; the West is geography. How much dexterity do you need to compare apples and oranges?

The Titanic and Olympic were identical sister ships, both higher than the Great Pyramid of Giza. The former began life in 1911, hit an iceberg and became immortal. The Olympic went to sea a year earlier, in 1910, and sailed peacefully till 1937. No one remembers a success story.

King George, I am reliably informed by A.N. Wilson, in After the Victorians, did not bring his real crown when he came to India for the durbar of 1911. He wore a lighter version in Delhi, made by Garrardâs of London at a cost of 60,000 pounds. Guess who picked up the bill. Right. The Indian taxpayer.

Patrick French has an illustrative story about Colonel Francis Younghusbandâs Tibetan expedition of 1904 in his latest book. âWhen the British officers marched to the Tsuglakhang and other places, the inhabitants of Lhasa were displeased. They shouted and chanted to bring down rain, and made clapping noises to repulse them. In the foreignersâ custom these were seen as signs of welcome, so they took off their hats and said thank you.â

The World Health Organisation announced an important discovery, after years of research, in December. Circumcision can reduce the risk of HIV infection by half, so the Prophet Abraham, who started it all, was right. What was the name of the Belgian doctor who gave the world such good news? Dr Kevin De Cock.

</div>

Shambhu · 01-10-2007, 05:13 PM

We need to refer to jesus' father (PBUH) as 6K (since he made us all 6K years ago, according to the missionaries and their sheeple).....calling him 6K will immediately put missionaries on the backfoot when they come a-calling. When they show you the bible, show them a book on dinosaurs.."They lived much much more than 6K years ago, and we have their bones to prove it. Now what were you saying about 6K? You say carbon dating is wrong onlee? So its Flat Earth theory redux now? I see onlee sir. Do you want chai-biscoot?.."

**acharya** · 01-11-2007, 05:01 AM

As an aside to these similarities I'd like to point out that Christians and Jews at the back of their minds are often taught to accept some of the illogical resentment of the Islamists.

This is because some portions of the biblical mythology apparently identifies the Arabs/Islamists as descendents of Esau (Arabs belive they are descended from Ishmael), the older brother of Jacob, who stole Esau's birthright.

There is no proof of this and the mythology is uneven but I thought this was a subtility Hindu's may not readily get. Biblically Jacob and Esau were permanently set against one another, right from the womb. In some ways some Christians/Jews/Muslims actually have a messianic belief in this clash. Some sense of inevitability. We may even enjoy it.

**acharya** · 01-11-2007, 05:15 AM

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/jgei.htm

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/PDFs/The%20Je...0Islam%20JR.pdf

The Jew, the Gypsy and El Islam

by Sir Richard F. Burton

INFO re. THE FULL ORIGINAL MS. OF THE JEW IS FOUND AT THE BOTTOM HALF OF THIS PAGE

Color scan of actual title page. Click on image for larger version.

This is one of the two American editions.

Published in 1898 as one volume compiling three items originally intended to be books in their own right, or parts of books never finished. This book was never reprinted by a large, mainstream publishing house, but has been occasionally reprinted by small, independent publishers. However Jew-wise Burton may have been, he had a strange bias favoring Islamic practitioners and Gypsies. As per the Preface below, this could have been due to Gypsy blood, but this idea was never proved. The Jew, tho' heavily expurgated, retains much important information about its subject, as do the other two sections.

All known original editions were:

> Chicago and New York: Herbert S. Stone & Co., 1898.
> New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1898.
> London: Hutchinson & Co., 1898.

Repaginated to put exactly two original pages onto each new page, except where impossible due to space constraints. In full text with frontispiece illustration.

The 1898 editor was William Henry Wilkins (1860-1905). He also co-authored The Romance of Isabel Lady Burton, 1897 and edited Wanderings in Three Continents, 1901.

Minor erratum: In The Jew, ch. ii, p. 33, Wilkins has "732" as the year of the death of Muhammad, but the commonly accepted date today is 632.

"Indeed, whenever in these days we hear of a new 'religion' having been born into the world, we may determine, Ã priori, that it is more Jewish than its predecessors."

-- Sir Richard F. Burton, The Jew, p. 97 f/n. Amen!

"The Magnate [of Hungary] . . . sees all his rich estates . . . passing out of his own hands, and contributing to swell the bottomless pocket of the Jewish usurer. But the Magyar is a fiery race; and if this system of legal robbery be allowed to pass a certain point, which, by-the-bye, is not far distant, the Jews must prepare themselves for another disaster right worthy of the Middle Ages. And they will have deserved it."

-- Sir Richard F. Burton, The Jew, pp. 64-65.

[Compare with 1911 ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA, HUNGARY: "The Jews . . . monopolize a large portion of trade, are with the Germans the chief employers of labour, and control not only the finances but to a great extent the government and the press of the country. Owing to the improvidence of the Hungarian landowners and the poverty of the peasants, the soil of the country is gradually passing into their hands." (vol. XIII, p. 897).]

Burton wrote his words in 1873. He was on-target on so many matters. His works deserve to be referred to again and again, today.

THE JEW: HISTORICAL BACKGROUND

Five months before Burton's planned retirement, when he made it very clear he intended to publish The Jew with details of the cult of ritual murder he uncovered and documented during his consulship in Damascus, he died (1890, age 69). His wife Isabel also intended to publish the full work (see her Life of..., 1893, Vol. II, pp. 454-5, wherein it was described as "quite complete"); she died soon thereafter (1896, age 65). [Additional info on this whole sorry episode of Burton's life from Isabel's perspective may be found in her Romance, 1897: Gathering Clouds and The True Reasons of Burton's Recall, exposing all the machinations for which Jews are known]. In the process she apparently had a change of heart, as she supposedly left instructions that it be burned (this from a "recently discovered" piece of paper "found" among the MS. materials). One of her executors, her sister Mrs. Fitzgerald, was looking for a publisher, and died in 1902. Editor W. H. Wilkins, who had not published the offending passages with The Jew, the Gypsy and El Islam in 1898, (the Jews had threatened libel action), but who hinted that he may have done so in the future, died in 1905 at age 45. (What was published was just the preface and most of one chapter; what Wilkins called the "Appendix" was in actuality the majority of the work). Then a bit later, the Jews (in the form of David Lindo Alexander, president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews [ David Irving info ] vs. Manners Sutton, publisher) sued in court over the "assignment" of the manuscript, and won! Supposedly, the surviving executors had handed over the MS. to the Jews in 1909, under circumstances we can only wonder about, as it seems odd that Sotheran, a publisher, had already sold the MS. to Manners Sutton, thinking that the deceased Wilkins (from whom they had received the MS.) had been a qualified agent. No doubt money played a hidden role in this. Reading recent reports regarding the sale of the MS., it seems that the claim that Alexander simply "bought" the MS. is making the rounds. For a contemporary account, see The (London) Times, 28 March 1911, p. 3, col. 3 [ facsimile graphic ] describing the court case of the previous day. The old adage "possession is nine-tenths of the law" didn't count that time. Another judicial murder -- of the truth.

Since 1911, the original MS. has been under lock and key in the Board of Deputies of British Jews archives, filed under the heading "B2/9 16A, Burton Book . . . (v) Manuscript of an unpublished book by Sir Richard Burton and surrounding action by the Board to obtain it."

The original, complete Burton manuscript was put up for auction at Christie's Auction House on June 6, 2001, Lot #33, Sale #6456, but at $196,000 did not meet the reserve price of Â£150,000 and was a no-sale. See David Irving info at http://www.fpp.co.uk/BoD/origins/BurtonMS2.html.

Archive of Christie's auction info: BURTON, Sir Richard Francis (1821-1890).

Geoffrey Alderman, professor of Jewish history at Touro College, New York, and author of the standard work Modern British Jewry, said: "I am delighted the book failed to sell because this will force the board to reconsider. They have divided the community with a decision which ought never to have been taken. I have seen the manuscript and I think it should be made available only to bona fide scholars. I was shocked that a man of Burton's intelligence should believe the blood libel, but I think his allegations still have resonance for far right groups today."

Hmmmm . . . But Prof. Alderman can't explain away how the body of Father Thomas was found exactly where the Jews said it would be found. No amount of torture could have wrangled that from them if they really didn't know where it was, eh?

"A most barbarous secret for a long time suspected in the Jewish nation. . .at last came to light in the city of Damascus, that of serving themselves of Christian blood in their unleavened bread. . .a secret which these 1840 years must have made many unfortunate victims." Jasper Chasseaud, U.S. vice-consul, Beirut, Lebanon, in a letter to John Forsyth (1840-MAR-24, no. 12), microfilm 367, State Department archives, U.S. National Archives.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-11-2007, 06:58 AM by Husky.)

QUOTE"A most barbarous secret for a long time suspected in the Jewish nation. . .at last came to light in the city of Damascus, that of serving themselves of Christian blood in their unleavened bread. . .a secret which these 1840 years must have made many unfortunate victims."That book you are talking about is just the usual christian libel against Jews. I think it's called blood libel. The accusations it makes are the same as those which christianity invented in the Middle Ages. It has not changed.

Christos, unable to win the theological arguments against Judaism, have to resort to the most heinous accusations to stain Jews as 'evil, untrustworthy and profane'. Acharya, the book you cited serves as proof of the terrorism of christianity, but says nothing about Jewish people (other than give another example case of them being maligned by christoislamism again).

QUOTEJasper Chasseaud in 1840: 'a secret which these 1840 years must have made many unfortunate victims'.Proves that Chasseaud is a devout christian. He believed that christians existed since year 0 (apparently Jesus died in the year 0 now?) instead of just a very small number in the late first century CE, a slightly larger number in the next two centuries and then a whole bunch of unwilling converts from Constantine on.
'must have made (many unfortunate victims)' = usual biased christian, anti-semitic speculation. Meaning: not worth believing.

**acharya** · 01-11-2007, 11:31 PM

In some ways some Christians/Jews/Muslims actually have a messianic belief in this clash. Some sense of inevitability. Some may even enjoy it.

There is a strain of Christian thinking that believes that the religion is strengthened during times of stress. They hark back to the Roman Persecution and the oppression of Christians as a sort of Golden Age. The readily visible aspect of this is the frequent proclamation of the end days due to this catastrophe or that.

For instance the Christian cross nailing realistic tableu's or the wearing of crown of thorns, or in more modern times the belief in extended fasts. There is a masochistic strain of enjoyment in such physical brutalization. The Christian faith has also a deep undercurrent of belief that, "..they are most right when the others persecute them the most..".

As I watch Bush ignore the overwhelming majority in the US as he prosecutes a war with an approval rating of 20% or less, I wonder if at the back of his born again ego he actually relishes this clash and the pain of enduring as a enjoyable sensation. "Yea though I walk through the valley of death.." and all that, literally. Straight path to heaven for both sides.

01-12-2007, 12:05 AM

Usualy christians have 2 names ,one which was given at baptise and was a name of a saint and as the first saint was greco-romans lead to a greek-roman influx of names.Intersting that some apostles like Peter and Andrew have greek names,they wasnt jews ?
John Chrisostom was indeed a pre-christian name.We can remember of Dios Chisostomus(golden mouth <!--emo& Tongue

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /> ) the faimous roman historian. John comand to christian mobs to destroy pagan temples?What abt other Fathers(like Basil the great etc) from the same time?We can find the same comands?

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-12-2007, 08:40 AM by Husky.)

QUOTEWhat abt other Fathers(like Basil the great etc) from the same time?We can find the same comands?
st basil the 'great':
http://www.greatlie.com/en/articles.cfm?...tail&id=21
QUOTESaint Basil the Great, Bishop of Caesarea (alias Santa Claus)
Â«The Greeks are enemies, for they delight in devouring Israel with their mouth wide openÂ» Â« By mouth the prophet means (see Isaiah 9.11) the power of the sophistsï¿½ speech that will use every argument to confuse the simple believersÂ» Saint Basil of Caesarea ON PROPHET ISAIAH

Â«My Order is, (!!!) Show no cowardice when you are faced with the Greeksï¿½ hypotheses, which resemble wood, or rather a used up torch that has lost its liveliness and all power of the wood, and neither does it display any more the torchesï¿½ glow. Indeed like extinguished, smoking torches they will stain black and dishonor he who would reach for them and bring tears to the eyes of those who would venture near them. The same effect has (The Greeksï¿½) falsely named knowledge to the people who would use itÂ»
Basil the Great (alias Santa Claus) (330-379AD) FOREWORD TO THE PROPHET ISAIAH 7.196.3)Going by these statements, he didn't tell people to destroy Greek civilisation like Bishop Theophilius and St Cyrilus and many others did. But he certainly had no love for the Hellenes and instilled the same in his audience.

QUOTEIntersting that some apostles like Peter and Andrew have greek namesWas under the impression that Peter/Petrus was a Roman name - from 'Petra', Latin for rock?
The all-important line for the Vatican: And on this rock (petra) I will build my Church <-> apostolic succession from Peter.
(That's also a fraud of course, see Die Petruslegende by Arthur Drews translated into English by Frank Zindler.)

QUOTEDios Chisostomus(golden mouth) the faimous roman historian.Read that it was Dion Chrysostom(us) and that he was Greek, but probably living in Rome as he was friend of emperor Trajan and gave speeches there.

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