Iraq And Its Future

01-05-2007, 01:32 AM

True but the odds are against them. They will have to decide between the local villian and the global villain - upto now they are putting up a stiff fight to the local villian.

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Ques -> what is the hindu response to the video ?

ramana · (This post was last modified: 01-05-2007, 02:19 AM by ramana.)

QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Jan 4 2007, 08:02 PM)True but the odds are against them. They will have to decide between the local villian and the global villain - upto now they are putting up a stiff fight to the local villian.

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Ques -> what is the hindu response to the video ?
[right][snapback]62751[/snapback][/right]


What if they found that they need to get out of the mess and made the decision? Great movements were launched on lesser sacrifices.

What is the Hindu response?

I am still thinking about it. But something unusual has happened.

I would like Hauma and Ashok to look at all the facts- timing, garments, demeanor of SH etc., and let us know.

01-05-2007, 03:02 AM

QUOTEQues -> what is the hindu response to the video ?
I was sick to my stomach, very inhumane. I know Arabs invaders did same with Hindus, but it was shocking. Why taping and why they allowded people to mock and taunt?
He showed grace and looks very dignified.

01-05-2007, 03:07 AM

QUOTEHe deserved death and more 
Pioneer.com
Kanchan Gupta
When a monster is put to death, the civilised world is supposed to celebrate and heave a sigh of relief. That's what happened when the International Military Tribunal at Nuremburg tried Adolf Hitler's trusted men who survived the war, found them guilty of committing gross crimes against humanity, and marched them to the gallows of Allied justice.

Had 24x7 television come of age then, we can be sure the executions, held inside a gymnasium where two gallows were used alternately, would have been telecast live. In the absence of live broadcasting, draws were held and reporters invited to witness and photograph the brutal end to which those who perpetrated horrendous brutality were put, partly as justice but largely as retribution.

No tears were shed over the Nuremburg executions of October 16, 1946. Neither did anybody feel particularly re-morseful after Benito Mussolini was shot dead with his mistress by Italians on April 28, 1945, and then hung on public display in Milan, without being accorded the privilege of a trial.

Nor, for that matter, was there any mourning or grief when Japan's wartime Prime Minister Hideki Tojo was hanged as a war criminal on December 23, 1948. Barring black badges at AK Gopalan Bhawan in New Delhi, the world was not repulsed by the public execution of Romanian President Nicolae Ceausescu and his wife Elena on Christmas, 1989, after being picked up from their palace which, among other minor luxuries, had commodes crafted out of 24 karat gold.

It would also be instructive to recall the near silence that greeted the ghastly killing of Mohammed Najibullah, the dethroned President of Afghanistan, on September 27, 1996 by the Taliban. Along with his brother, he was dragged out of the UN compound in Kabul where they had been provided with refuge and enjoyed immunity under international law. The Taliban then proceeded to castrate and drag the two men behind a jeep, before shooting them and stringing up their bodies from lamp posts outside the presidential palace for two days.

In sharp contrast, the execution of Saddam Hussein on Eid-ul-Adha, after being found guilty by an Iraqi court of ordering the massacre of 148 Shias at Dujail, has triggered a dam burst of outrage and sympathy. Both are on ample display in India where 'secular' politicians who believe that the easiest way to get Muslim votes is to berate the US are tripping over each other to "denounce the execution of Saddam Hussein".

This can mean one of three things. First, those of our politicians who are pained by the exit of Saddam Hussein remain unmoved by the sorrow of tens of thousands of Muslims - Sunnis, Shias and Kurds - whose loved ones were remorselessly slaughtered for the perverse pleasure of the 'Butcher of Baghdad'. Second, in all probability many of those who are shedding tears over Saddam Hussein are ignorant of the heart-wrenching details of his tyrannical rule that lasted more than three decades. Third, they are dangerously indifferent, if not criminally cynical, about the moral markers that must set the course for a ruler anywhere in the world.
Â
In his dying moments, Saddam Hussein may have chanted, "God is great" and "There is no god, but God", incantations that give the lie to the claim that he was the embodiment of "secularism", for a true Muslim cannot be truly secular. That does not, however, mean that he lived a godly life or conducted his temporal affairs in accord with god's word till his ouster by kafirs in 2003.

Such was the contempt among Iraqis for their fallen dictator that when he was picked up from the hole where he was hiding and grandiosely declared, "I am Saddam Hussein, President of Iraq, and I wish to negotiate", people mocked at him pitilessly. The contempt, distaste and hatred for Saddam Hussein were not unfounded - not then, not now.

Never mind the Sunni insurgents, most of them remnants of Saddam Hussein's Ba'athist regime, who are fighting with their backs to the wall, fearful of Shia majority rule and its implications. Ask the Iraqis who have suffered in silence for decades and they will tell you that if there is anything which upsets them about Saddam Hussein's execution, it is the fact that they have been robbed of the pleasure to see him die many times over for his innumerable crimes.

The current rickety dispensation in Baghdad headed by Prime Minister Nuri Kamel al-Maliki may not be the desired alternative. But whatever its weaknesses, it does not run a police state where the mukhabarat gets to decide who lives and who dies. Till Saddam Hussein's monstrous regime was in power, the mukhabarat was everywhere, much like Stalin's secret police, enforcing order not through rule of law but by unleashing terror, torture and death.

Such was the fear that Iraqis would be cautious about what they said at home lest their children repeat their conversation at school where teachers would seek promotion and benefits by carrying tales to the mukhabarat. Saddam Hussein set the ground rules for his stooges when, within days of coming to power, he slaughtered most of the top Ba'athist leaders, had the carnage videographed and ordered that the bloodletting should be screened in every town and village.

Over the years Iraqis came to fear the midnight knock. People would be picked up for "questioning" and they would never return home. Mothers lost their children, wives their husbands, children their parents. Entire families were devastated as Saddam Hussein insisted that not only should those whom he deemed guilty of indeterminate and imaginary crimes be punished, but also their first, second and third cousins.

While those who praise him for keeping fractious Iraq, an artificial construct to begin with, together are not entirely wrong, what they do not mention are the methods he used for this 'achievement'. For instance, during his 1987-88 campaign against Kurds, Saddam Hussein ordered mass slaughter on an unprecedented scale, killing at least 180,000 men, women and children. In Halabja, a Kurshish town, 5,000 Iraqis were gassed to death. He repeated the massacre in 1991, this time targeting Shias and leaving as many as 100,000 dead.

The victims of Saddam Hussein's criminality in the northern, Kurd-dominated areas and the southern, Shia majority areas were Muslims. As were the Sunnis he killed with equal cruelty. Those who cite prisoner abuse by US-led forces at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad forget that in the immediate aftermath of Iraq's liberation, thousands flocked the execution chamber of this jail and wept inconsolably while hugging the three ropes from which their flesh-and-blood had been hanged on the orders of Saddam Hussein's regime. Elsewhere, wailing men and women dug up mass graves with shovels and spades, many used their hands, to recover the skeletal remains of the ogre's victims.

"We reject considering Saddam Hussein as a representative of any sect in Iraq because the tyrant only represented his evil soul," the Iraqi Government said in a formal statement after his execution. For once, an official Arab response was not couched in loquacious, elliptical language. Tragically, that "evil soul" has now become the object of praise and worship among India's 'secular' charlatans.Â

ramana · 01-05-2007, 03:21 AM

Mudy, Stitha pragna. Need to evaluate with calm mind. Dont be misled by maya psy-ops.

01-05-2007, 03:55 AM

There might be many aspects

1. most people (including me) had not seen a hanging video before and so there is this disgust at seeing a death penalty being carried out
2. for some saddam as a person being hanged had a special significance - due to his standing upto US (the bully), sunni, brother, clansman, whatever

i heard from talking to family that some hindu pregnant women are going to name their kid saddam - appeared on some news somewhere. i am thinking thats prob because of #1.

Other then that from the US perspective they have sent a strong msg without getting their hands dirty -> dont mess with us. Sort of like a response to that beheading video. In the process they have the shias and sunnis at each others' throats. By virtue of not getting hands too dirty (perception) they have convinced themselves even more -> see these guys cant even carry out a death penalty properly, these guys need to be civilised with some western sense knocked into them.

01-05-2007, 04:22 AM

QUOTEQues -> what is the hindu response to the video ? 
Afzal Guru and is buddies must be poping champagne or Rooh Afzha.

dhu · (This post was last modified: 01-05-2007, 05:57 AM by dhu.)

they must have known that he would recite shahada in his final moments. trigger was pulled just as he finished saying 'mohammad', but he wasn't allowed to confrm mohammad as the (final) prophet. Shia believe in the imminent return of the Imam.

01-05-2007, 07:33 AM

QUOTEthey must have known that he would recite shahada in his final moments.
They hanged him when he started saying second time.

QUOTEDont be misled by maya psy-ops.
Actually, I am thinking other way round. I saw clip couple of times.
My concerns -
Shias are projecting Sadr as Imam.
Saddam called for Arab Nationalism.
He told guys who were taunting or Sadr supporters to see hidden agenda of Persia and West. His specific reference to Persia suggests he was referring them as different race/civilization/Kufirs.

I think this may divide Shia, as now Shias will be seen as barbaric and Sunnis in better light.
Now people think Shia are majority and they are behind beheading etc.

I am surprised why US let this happen, either they are clueless or want to see future fun between Sadr and other Shias. This can create rift between Iraqi Shias and Persian Shias.
Killing him on this day was just a symbol of Halal.

This may create confusion between Indian Shia.

01-05-2007, 12:16 PM

QUOTEOne thing that Saddam said during his execution (and reported by Al Jazeera) was that he was the only president of Iraq to to keep the country together. After him 'they' will require seven presidents to do the job. The way things are looking he may well be right.
From some other fora, yet to see any reference to this.

01-05-2007, 12:19 PM

QUOTELayla Anwar
An Arab Woman Blues - Monday, January 01, 2007

The sectarian Iranians Shi'as in Iraq changed the day of the Feast. They postponed it one day , till Sunday the 31st of December according to their so called Jaafari "Islamic" calendar.
You are intelligent enough to figure out what the message is behind all of this.
They have offered us "sunnis" or "sooooooneeees" as george bush likes to call us as a "sacrificial"gift for the Feast. The Zionist Jews planned it as craftily as the Eyeranians. One hand cannot applaud.Ask Al Hakim during his last visit to D.C. He can tell you all about it.

Saddam is gone . A hero. Like it or not. A fearless, brave, courageous, defiant, principled Arab. Till his last breath, he said " Palestine is ARAB" and "Long live Palestine and Long live the Arab Ummah and long live the Iraqi People."

Let us have a quick look at the Arab Ummah as it does not deserve anything more than a swift glance.

Jordan - Total Silence. Let me remind Jordan that Aqaba its port - was built with 50 million dollars - Iraqi money in the 1980's. Let me remind the Hashemite Kingdom that for over 5 years, it received FREE oil from Iraq and let me remind this "respectable country" that if it was not for Iraq, it would still be gathering seashells on its coasts and trying to promote its dead end tourism whilst riding donkeys in downtown Amman.

Egypt - H.Mubarak has not finished his belly dance choreography for 2006. Do we need to remind him of the Millions he received when he went begging for liquidity in Baghdad ? Of course no need to mention the 3 Million Egyptian workers who came and acquired the land they were laboring in Iraq.

Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Gulf - seems they were too busy with the Eid celebrations to utter anything of substance. The only substance they are capable of sharing is stuffed mutton with rice , the halal way of course . Their gargatuan fiesta in which they are still dripping up to their elbows in meat grease and saying Bismillah, in the name of God is not over yet... Do we need to remind those pimps that half a million Iraqis died to protect them from the Persian Crescent ?

Syria- Praise sly Syria. Syria is "surprised" 24 hours later . Another Ha! to you Syria.
(won't mention the 30'000 massacred in Hama - nugde nudge) Oh well thanks for the cheap shampoo in exchange for free oil during the sanctions years.

Lebanon - too busy being botoxed and siliconized the American versus Iranian style. Leave them to figure out how much of either they need to pump in.

Tunisia- you who you were getting all your school books printed in Iraq for FREE, you have kept your cowardly silence . Oh well, as usual!

Morocco- Apart from a few voices of conscience, Hassan the little one has rolled another joint and received a fax from Israel to the effect.....

Algeria - too busy with its own drills...

Libya - Now that the delusional psychotic fit has abated , Qadhafi pronounced 3 days of mourning and that 2 hours before the execution. Thank you Colonel.

Palestine - or what is left of it : a 1000 marched in a demo. Big deal. What about the 25'000 dollars received for each of the martyr's family ? Forgotten so quick ?(Won't mention the scuds.)

Am not done yet . Be patient...

Somalia - God bless it . Where are your students who came and studied for free in Iraqi Universities ? They had more privileges than any Iraqi... Blame it on short memory.

Mauritania - Have you perfected your Arabic, or did you just cash in the millions.?

Sudan - too busy with Darfur....ok now I got it.

Iran, o little Iran - Your society is chauvinistic Persian and they not only hate your "islamic"government, they hate Arabs with vehemence. As for you little government, we know how much you pay up for your sheep to attend your public demonstrations. Media oblige,behind the "Islamic" cloak bien sur ! Ugly lot. We know you all too well. No surprises there.

So called Iraqis - "damned Iraqis". You called on filthy Al Sadr and Al Hakim your intercessors with the Divine. Backward lot . Male Dwarfs. Retrograde, sectarian dirt. Vindictive scum. Persian sellouts.Little petty fanatics . Small impotent ones. Are you happy jumping up and down like the clowns that you are ? You are a circus, a cheap entertainment. You are nothing. Nor you nor your little corrupt coward puppet of a goverment. Big bellies, hooded faces, cloaked bodies and sh1t for brains . If you knew how much people mock you, if you knew how despised you are outside of Sadr city and your rotting Najaf and Kerbala. Another ha ha ha for your little hasssan's and your little hussein's, small people that you are .

Kurds - two words and not more. Am sorry.
Sorry for every single minute I wasted fighting for your rights. Oh and by the way tell your minister to pronounce correct Arabic. Seems Kurdish Iraqi autonomy has screwed up your accent. Too bad you were not able to experience the same in Iran, Turkey or Syria. As for your whining over Halabja- ask the Iranians- they knew the secret compounds of the chemicals.

You- Muslim Ummah , one sentence. You have been stoning the wrong devil during your pilgrimage. Wake up !

Am not done yet .

As for you america, blood thirsty america - your small georgie , your very small georgie in your very small nation of very small people . Little, short, post orgasmic xmas shoppers of the little usa. If you only knew what a joke you are to the nations , you would shrink even further.
You think you can offer Iraq on a platter for your zionist congress for 2007 ? That congress made of old farts and seniles ? so little do you know ... keep contemplating how you can figure out EyeRaq. And good luck ..tell me when you reach 3000 plus. I just might give you a way out.

England - "dear" England. From grace to grass. Madame Margaret Becket, the english scarecrow,thinks capital punishment is not politically correct ...but ...well.. since when was England nothing but a sneaky hypocrite ? Tell me something I don't know.For more of the same ask the Iraqis in the South.

France - Oh Monsieur le President Chirac. Petit Faux Cul. You seem to have forgotten all the business deals and the billions you got from the land of the Tigris. Oh la la . Even le Pen the Fascist had more balls than you .

And israel. the zionazi israel. First I need to apologize for the several "reconnaissance"spies we caught in the Hillah area of Babel lately. I know you are trying to rehearse defeating Nebukhadnezzar 21st century style. Sorry you failed. You were caught red handed. Try again in a new holocaust "pleurnichade" maybe someone will believe you then.
Little tribal jews , whining lamenting tribal jews . The game is over.Cry some more.Tough if you can't find a new shoulder. As for your apartheid wall - everyone can see through it.

As for you my favorite ones , the "anti War " movement . First let me enquire how Herr Chomsky the "closet zionist" is doing those days ? Any luck with his proposal for a referendum in Iraq concerning the american troops ? And to all of his followers- how does it feels now that capital punishment has been executed ? Do you feel a couple of inches taller in your self righteous stand or do you need more donations ? I heard you are promoting anti- war panties to that effect. Any profits so far ? No worries, you have little "american arabs"parading as "intellectuals". They will help in your anti-war efforts. Just make sure to teach them the "right way" to suck up to you.

Do forgive me if I have forgotten anyone else. Blame it on the Satanic execution of the Plan coupled with the New Year's "Euphoria".

Talking about The New Year. I wish to those who have not been polluted by all the above :
I wish you to find that Inner Place not found in textbooks. That Special Place of steadfastness, resistance, defiance and mockery. I wish you to find that Inner Place of Fortitude in Truth, of Courage in Hardship and of Laughter and Joy in the face of it All.
Onward...

01-05-2007, 12:39 PM

QUOTEhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...wexecute31.xml

Saddam rejected an offer of dinner, a cooked chicken, and asked only for a copy of the Koran. By 1am, all he wanted to do was sleep.

But his guards, all members of the dominant Shia Sciri party, had other ideas. One in particular, nicknamed Ali the Butcher, intended to make a hell of Saddam's last night on earth. "They were making jokes about Saddam," another guard who spoke to those on duty told The Sunday Telegraph. "Ali the Butcher had the rope they would hang him with, and he was telling Saddam 'It's waiting for you, it's waiting for you'.

"The guards were dancing in front of him. When Saddam tried to sleep, they were going in, every 30 minutes. They said, 'We didn't let him sleep. We destroyed his personality'."

A little after 5am, a number of officials arrived at the jail. Saddam declined breakfast. He asked a guard for a cigarette, but was refused. Then, with his hands tied in front of him, he was led towards the execution cell.

01-05-2007, 12:44 PM

These shameful events have humiliated the Arab world
Saddam's trial and mob execution reeked of western double standards. Yet Iraq's neighbouring states failed to speak out

01-06-2007, 04:29 AM

'Secular' way to inflame passions 
Pioneer.com
Shyam Khosla | Chairman, India Media Centre
Media is shedding more tears for Saddam Hussein than the whole Iraqi nation. Ultimately, it has ended up rousing Sunni passions in Uttar Pradesh, which may be good news for the 'secular' parties in the upcoming Assembly election 

QUOTETelevision channels behaved in an equally irresponsible manner. Protests by even small groups of Sunnis were repeatedly shown on TV channels creating the impression that the entire country was on the roads protesting against Saddam Hussein's death. While more than 70 per cent of Iraqi citizens are rejoicing that the dictator that persecuted them is no more, "secular-liberal" brigade is in mourning. "Secular" political parties - the Communists, the Samajwadi Party and Ram Vilas Pawan's LJP - are the midst of thick competition to mobilise Muslims against the hanging of the dictator with an eye on the Muslim vote-bank.

The Samajwadi Party is on the forefront of the protests in Uttar Pradesh - a State that is slated to go to polls later this year - to consolidate its hold over Muslims and neutralise the Congress' attempt to win back the community's votes through the Prime Minister's atrocious "Muslims first" statement.

The Government and the Congress have, however, taken a soft line on the hanging of Saddam Hussein. Although the ruling party is worried about Sunni Muslims drifting away because of its stand on the issue, it doesn't want to do anything that may cause annoyance to Washington.

The principal Oppo-sition party - the BJP - chose to remain silent. The Shia-Sunni divide over the hanging will not hurt the BJP politically. The Hindutva forces, too, are comfortable with the party not joining the "secular" pro-Saddam Hussein chorus.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-06-2007, 11:10 AM by Husky.)

QUOTE(Mudy @ Jan 4 2007, 09:08 PM)WB: Teenager hangs self over Saddam`s execution 
Height of Stupidty.
[right][snapback]62737[/snapback][/right]It seems that the hanging video has affected more than one.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/execution...7777279093.html
Execution prompts children's hangings
QUOTEGraphic images of Saddam Hussein's execution this week have had tragic repercussions for the families of three children who hanged themselves after watching the footage.

In Webster, a suburb of Houston, Texas, Sergio Pelico, 10, accidentally hanged himself on New Year's Eve after watching television reports of Saddam's execution, police said.

In western Pakistan, a nine-year-old boy near the town of Multan died trying to copy scenes from the execution. Mubashar Ali, helped by his 10-year-old sister, tied a rope to a ceiling fan and his neck. Their father said the children had been watching the Saddam footage on television.

A 15-year-old Indian girl from Kharda, in West Bengal, hanged herself in response to the Saddam execution, saying she wanted to feel his pain.

The body of the US boy was found hanging from his bunk bed. He had asked about the execution, an uncle said.

"He asked, 'Is this how they killed people?"' Adolfo Chavez said. "We said, 'No, but they did it to this man because he's bad."'

Mr Chavez said his nephew said nothing more about the hanging. The next night, as adults prepared dinner and his cousins played, Sergio went upstairs to his bedroom. Another child found the body.

"It was nothing more than a tragic accident," said Captain Thomas Claunch, of the Webster police. "I think he was trying to mimic the behaviour, and it got out of hand."

01-12-2007, 08:03 AM

U.S. raid on Iranian consulate angers KurdsQUOTEStory Highlightsâ¢ NEW: Kurdish regional government objects to U.S. action
â¢ NEW: Bomb carried by 13-year-old boy kills Iraqi soldier
â¢ U.S. official confirms Iranian detentions, disputes reports of raid
â¢ Australia, Britain say they will not contribute more troops

01-16-2007, 06:45 AM

Sunnis blast hanging of 2 Saddam aides QUOTE--- by hanging two of his henchmen -- only appeared to anger many of Saddam's fellow Sunni Muslims after the former leader's half brother was decapitated on the gallows.
...........
A government video of the hanging, played at a briefing for reporters, showed Ibrahim's body passing the camera in a blur. The body came to rest on its chest while the severed head lay a few yards away, still wearing the black hood pulled on moments before by one of Ibrahim's five masked executioners.

The decapitation appeared inadvertent, and Iraqi officials seemed anxious to prove they hadn't mutilated Ibrahim's remains.
 

They messed up this again.

ramana · 01-16-2007, 09:00 PM

The Iraqi Sunnis would understand all these executions as par for the course but for the charde or pretense of 'fair' trial to appease Uncle's sensibilities.

01-19-2007, 11:41 AM

Mahdi Army expressing siege mentality QUOTEBAGHDAD, Iraq - Two Shiite militia commanders said Thursday that Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has stopped protecting radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's Madhi Army under pressure from Washington, while the fighters described themselves as under seige in their Sadr City stronghold.

Their account of an organization now fighting for its very existence could represent a tactical and propaganda feint, but there was mounting evidence the militia is increasingly off balance and has ordered its gunmen to melt back into the population. To avoid capture, commanders report no longer using cell phones and fighters are removing their black uniforms and hiding their weapons during the day.

During much of his nearly eight months in office, al-Maliki, who relies on al-Sadr's political backing, has blocked or ordered an end to many U.S.-led operations against the Mahdi Army.
.....

They were protecting him, just can't believe.

01-20-2007, 10:42 AM

Top aide of Muqtada al-Sadr arrested QUOTEBAGHDAD, Iraq - U.S. and Iraqi forces swooped into a mosque complex in east Baghdad on Friday and detained a top aide to radical anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, the latest in a series of operations aimed at eviscerating the leadership of the Mahdi Army militia.

The raid drew immediate criticism from the Iraqi government, which complained it had not been consulted. An aide to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who owes his job as Iraqi leader to al-Sadr's backing, said the operation was not part of a coming joint U.S.-Â Iraq security drive.

Under the plan, to which President Bush has committed an additional 21,500 American troops, U.S. commanders have been promised a freer hand against both Sunni insurgents and Shiite militiamen.

"There was no coordination with the Iraqi political leadership and this arrest was not part of the new security plan," Sadiq al-Rikabi, the al-Maliki adviser, told Al-Arabiya television. "Coordination with the Iraqi political leadership is needed before conducting such operations that draw popular reactions."

Abdul-Hadi al-Darraji was
...............
Finally, first right step.

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