Christian subversion and missionary activities

01-11-2007, 09:58 AM

QUOTEI didnt know Chavez was religious. What kind of xtian is he ?Just guessing. South-, Central-American so Catholic. And he accused Bush of being the Diablo (devil) and started praying in that UN address or wherever, so I think catholic could be right. And left-leaning, so liberation theology?

01-11-2007, 05:03 PM

QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Jan 11 2007, 08:27 AM)

I didnt know Chavez was religious. What kind of xtian is he ?
[right][snapback]62965[/snapback][/right]

<b>Chavez & his model to deepen the revolution</b>

01-12-2007, 01:52 AM

QUOTEhttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16579038/
<b>Judge OKs sex abuse lawsuit against Vatican</b>
U.S. federal court says victims can pursue damages from Church
Updated: 12:04 p.m. ET Jan 11, 2007
LOUISVILLE, Ky. - Sex abuse victims can pursue damages from the Vatican in a lawsuit alleging top church officials failed to report known or suspected cases of child abuse, a federal judge ruled Thursday.

The ruling by U.S. District Judge John G. Heyburn II allows three men to pursue claims against the Vatican over allegations of sexual abuse by priests in the Archdiocese of Louisville.

The men alleged that the Vatican knew or suspected some of its priests or bishops were child molesters, but failed to warn the public or local authorities about them because of a policy prohibiting it

01-12-2007, 02:33 AM

QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Jan 10 2007, 10:57 PM)http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070110/wl_n...zuela_dc_8

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<b>He cited passages of the bible </b>praising the redistribution of wealth, but gave no details to flesh out his nationalization plan against utilities, leaving investors to guess whether he wants the state to have a majority stake or 100 percent control.

I didnt know Chavez was religious. What kind of xtian is he ?
[right][snapback]62965[/snapback][/right]
</div>
The kind who puts his own neck ahead of Jesus
QUOTEMr. Chavez announced he would expel missionaries from New Tribes Mission (NTM), a Florida-based organization that has provided Bible translation and humanitarian relief in remote regions of Venezuela for nearly 60 years.

01-12-2007, 02:36 AM

In other news : Judge OKs sex abuse lawsuit against Vatican
QUOTEThe ruling by U.S. District Judge John G. Heyburn II allows three men to pursue claims against the Vatican over allegations of sexual abuse by priests in the Archdiocese of Louisville.

The men alleged that the Vatican knew or suspected some of its priests or bishops were child molesters, but failed to warn the public or local authorities about them because of a policy prohibiting it.

01-12-2007, 04:30 AM

protestants i guess. maybe this conversation belongs to the faith+diplomacy thread. wonder what the desi-commie-nuts think about this ?

QUOTE(Viren @ Jan 11 2007, 02:03 PM)
The kind who puts his own neck ahead of JesusÂ
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEMr. Chavez announced he would expel missionaries from New Tribes Mission (NTM), a Florida-based organization that has provided Bible translation and humanitarian relief in remote regions of Venezuela for nearly 60 years.
</div>

http://www.ntm.org/about/

QUOTEFrom our Chairman

Our focus is on finishing. And we are not truly finished until the day there are believers from every tribe, tongue and nation worshipping God together.

That is the day for which we're willing to do whatever it takes. He is the God for whom we're willing to give our all.

Until then our mission is steadfast: to reach new tribes, people groups who have never had a single opportunity to hear the Good News. Of the earth's 7,000 ethnic groups, 3,000 are still unreached. Our vision is for every tribe to have the opportunity to hear and respond to the Gospel.

We cannot do this alone - and God does not want us to. God gave the Great Commission to His Church, and New Tribes Mission assists the local church in making disciples of all nations.

You have a job to do, and we would love the opportunity to partner with you in this task.

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 01-12-2007, 04:43 AM by Bodhi.)

QUOTE(Husky @ Jan 9 2007, 11:52 PM)Just like that tv personality Malaika Arora and her sister Amrita Arora, who are both catholic because they have a catholic mother and a Hindu father. (Thankfully Malaika married most suitably: a muslim. Hopefully her sister would make the same appropriate choice).
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Husky, sleep well, Amrita Arora is already dating a muslim - Usman Afzaal. Her official website says:

QUOTEAmrita Arora born 31 January 1981 is an Indian actress.Â Born in Bombay, India to a Malyali mother and a Punjabi father, she is the sister of Malaika Arora. Her brother-in-law is Arbaaz Khan.She was romantically linked to Kevin Otter, Upen Patel and Ashmit Patel. Currently, she is dating Usman Afzaal.

01-12-2007, 05:37 AM

OMG you guys, I know I am going to sound like a crazy old coot, but you are talking about actresses and models! So, some Amrita Arora was linked to Kevin Otter, Upen Patel, Ashmit Patel and Usman Afzaal - I have heard of none of them, included the woman.

A generation ago, these characters would have been regarded the equivalent of prostitutes! Now, we are agonizing over their choices of sexual partner and allegiance to religion. Come on!

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-12-2007, 08:19 AM by Husky.)

QUOTEbut you are talking about actresses and models!Gave Malaika and sister as well-known examples of christian offspring of Hindu-christian couples. I could have given far better and more detailed examples of two people I know of (well, my parents know them), but they would have been just more instances of unfamiliar examples to people here. So I went with famous people instead and added one near-personal experience (my mum's).
This was the only time that that Malika et al info proved useful (who knew it ever would). Now my brain will probably expel it and make room for actually useful stuff!

QUOTENow, we are agonizing over their choices of sexual partner and allegiance to religionTheir partner is their business, of course. Just approving of Malaika's and wishing her sister the same kind. Models, actors or whatever will of course date their own kind: other actors and models.

The main point of my earlier post was that it's best for the regular Hindu population (definitely outside the 'famous' clique) to marry Hindus, Jains and the like. It's good for their offspring too. At the least, Hindus ought to know what they are getting into before they get married to someone of the christoislamic faith. The average Hindu doesn't have any idea of what it entails, at least not in Chennai, and so ends up regretting it, sorry or miserable.

QUOTEHusky, sleep well, Amrita Arora is already dating a muslim Thanks for the trivia. Had no problems sleeping on her account, though. I've never even seen a pic of her. I've seen two Hindi films in my entire life and neither had her (or her sister) in it...

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-13-2007, 07:14 AM by Husky.)

QUOTE(rajesh_g @ Jan 12 2007, 04:30 AM)protestants i guess. maybe this conversation belongs to the faith+diplomacy thread. wonder what the desi-commie-nuts think about this ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Viren @ Jan 11 2007, 02:03 PM)The kind who puts his own neck ahead of Jesus<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEMr. Chavez announced he would expel missionaries from New Tribes Mission (NTM), a Florida-based organization that has provided Bible translation and humanitarian relief in remote regions of Venezuela for nearly 60 years.
</div>http://www.ntm.org/about/[right][snapback]62983[/snapback][/right]
</div>The NTM is among the most, if not the most, notorious of missionary organisations working today. It works like the christian conquistadors in the Americas did (catholic) and the early christians (orthodox, catholic) who forcibly converted the Greeks and Romans. So, in a way, it's the most christian of the lot, sticking to the 'traditional' conversion methods that have worked like a charm in the past. The NTM is protestant.

If Chavez expelled these christoterrorists, then that's something I agree with him on.

http://freetruth.50webs.org/D4a.htm#NTM
QUOTE <b>The New Tribes Mission (NTM): operating wherever there are still unconverted indigenous people</b>
This agency, spreading the Good News in South America and elswhere,
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE...is one of many fundamentalist christian missions that is trying to peddle its message to vulnerable groups, in this case the remaining tribal peoples of the world. It sets itself the ambitious and frightening target of continuing with this "until the last tribe is reached". It is active in nineteen countries.
The role of a missionary is to infiltrate a tribe, and convince or coerce them into rejecting their own indigenous spiritual beliefs in favour of the christian church. Many times much more than this is lost, as people are 'educated' by missionaries, or missionary activity is the harbinger of further economic development. Indigenous people find themselves suddenly brought in to the global economy with a bump, totally exploitable and the bottom of a pile. <b>Abuse, genocide</b> and round-ups of indigenous people who are unwilling to convert:
QUOTESporadic stories of abuse from the NTM have been emerging for years, despite the fact that most of their activities take place well hidden from outside scrutiny. Many stories have come from the rainforests of South America where the missionaries found that the only ways to convert nomadic communities was to force them into camps, or reservations, driving out into the forest to roundup those who do not come.These mission procedures to round-up and capture non-Christian South American people for conversion are referred to as <b>manhunts</b>.
Once again, <b>Christianity colludes with dictators and causes genocide by introducing diseases</b> (purposefully as always):QUOTEIn Paraguay, the NTM acted in collusion with the dictator Stroessner, for who the policy of settlement camps and conversion fitted in nicely with his plans for opening up the forest to mining and logging interests.
The NTM are also accused of killing many more people, for example the Ayoreo, also of Paraguay, by bringing western diseases into the area.<b>From:</b> New Tribes Mission http://www.eco-action.org/mission/ntm.html

This is the same <i>New Tribes Mission</i> which the Venezuelan president Chavez banned from his country, accusing them of spying for the US government and of mistreating the native Indians horribly:
QUOTE"They will leave Venezuela," said the president. "They are agents of imperialist penetration. They gather sensitive and strategic information and are exploiting the Indians. So they will leave, and I don't care two hoots about the international consequences that this decision could bring."
..."I have seen reports and videos on the activity of these New Tribes. We don't want them here; we all form part of an old tribe," ChÃ¡vez quipped.
The Venezuelan government changed the highly controversial celebration of Columbus Day (which had led to the Christian genocide of the Natives of the Americas) into Day of Indigenous Resistance. Chavez is the same person that fundy televangelist Pat Robertson wanted assassinated.QUOTEThe controversial group [NTM] has been <b>accused of prospecting for strategic minerals on behalf of transnational corporations</b> and of the <b>forced acculturation and conversion of indigenous people</b>.<b>From:</b> NTM Missionaries Kicked Out http://www.eco-action.org/ssp/news/16100501.html</div>

Husky · (This post was last modified: 01-13-2007, 07:23 AM by Husky.)

There's more:
http://freetruth.50webs.org/D4a.htm#Miss...uthAmerica
QUOTE<b>NTM and Mennonite missions in South America</b>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTETo learn what missionaries do today let us follow two visits to protestant Missions in Southern America, as recorded by eyewitnesses less than two decades ago, the first leading us to an NTM mission station in Paraguay. [ Link ]
QUOTE<b>NTM mission station in Paraguay</b>
WE LEFT before dawn the next day in Riester's Land Rover, and found the missionary camp at the end of a jungle track, along which threatening notices had been posted in the hope of keeping visitors away. Nearer the centre of the camp grimed and dishevelled women squatted round a fire on which a tortoise was being cooked... In the centre of the camp we found a large wooden hut with several male Ayoreos propped against its walls... dazed with apathy and unable or unwilling to speak...
A commotion began, led by some weeping women, who had broken through to tell us that the camp's water-supply had been cut off as a punishment for some offence, and that many sick children in the camp had been without water for some days. It seemed a matter of urgency to do something to rectify this situation so we went to see the missionary, Mr Depue, whose trim compound was adjacent to the bedraggled camp area... Mr Depue and his family were at lunch when we arrived and we were shown into an anteroom... After Mr Depue had said grace the family rose from the table... and Mr Depue joined us...

He unhesitatingly confirmed that he had ordered a collective punishment he believed most effective to deal with a case in which two or three children had broken into a store... There was to be no more water until the culprits were found, and brought into his compound there to be publicly thrashed.

"Would you be administering the thrashing, Mr Depue?" I asked.
"That is my intention," he said, "although I should not be averse to supervising the necessary chastisement undertaken by another person. But I'm afraid that's unlikely."

He went on to explain... in all the many years he had spent as a missionary he had never heard of a single instance of an Indian punishing a child...

"And do you still believe that this is a better life?" I asked Mr Depue.
"Yes," he said. "I cannot describe to you in words how much better it is."
"The Ayoreos who left the camp and went to Santa Cruz," I told him, "are living on the women's earnings from prostitution."
"There would be little alternative," he said..."I am only comforted by the knowledge that a soul once truly saved can never be lost." [LM119-122]

Of course a different picture is painted in the many colorful books and leaflets published by the missionary headquarters, intended for readers back home: "Missionary descriptions of such operations are often disarmingly simple and direct... God Planted Five Seeds, by Jean Dye Johnson, a classic of its kind, is the account of a young missionary wife... Only once in 213 pages does she refer to Indians, and then in quotes, as if real Indians were to be found only in North America. Otherwise the mission is out to capture 'naked savages', or bÃ¡rbaros...
Mrs Johnson noted that the householders, 'most of whom owned ranches or farms just out of town were shameless in their desire to get their hands on some Ayoreo who would become a labourer without pay'.

The use in this passage of the adjective 'shameless' is the single example of implied criticism in this book of the servitude imposed on the Indians. For years Mrs Johnson lived among 'captives' and 'labourers without pay', but the word 'slave' is never used. On a single occasion she expressed regret for the murder of an Indian.
He (Paul Fleming, founder and head of the NTM) was troubled by the fact that the second search party had killed a savage.
Mrs Johnson's concern here is likely to have been less with the death of a savage, which was a matter of frequent occurrence, than with the mission's responsibility for a soul's condemnation to everlasting hell." [LM123f] "Contact work, one learns from a study of the missionary publications, when not undertaken by the missionaries themselves is confined to native 'deacons'. These, in the style of the London Missionary Society's police of old, carry guns. At this time some 850 Ayoreos thus contacted are in NTM camps, and a very large, but unrecorded number have died. Cultural Survival, a US organization not wholly unsympathetic to missionary endeavour, admitted that inmates of an NTM camp... were held against their will. In the legal sense, therefore, they had been kidnapped." [LM127]

Missionary accounts of their activities display almost incredible insensitivity. A letter back home from the McClure family, dated March 1979 reads:

Dear Prayer Partners,
Early last year we asked you to claim 1978 as the year we contacted the Totobigosode or 'pig people'. The Following is what your prayers have effected.
It started the 28th December... [on] a site about 200 kilometres from El Faro [...] When the El Faro men were close they started shouting their names, and that they had come in peace. To this the 'pig people' shouted back, 'These men are saying that they have come in peace but what if it is a trick, because they have done this to us long ago.'
The turning point seemed to come when Cadui, one of the El Faro men, threw his rifle behind him and walked forward... However, they had to wait three days before all the women were rounded up; they were scared to death. One lady was injured when she fell from a tree. [She broke a leg in two places and was obliged to walk back to the mission on it, and subsequently died. Ed.] It was a joyous occasion when we arrived at the mission station...
The El Faro Indians and missionaries are just praising the Lord for his faithfulness in bringing all this about...

Reaching the lost for Christ,

The McClures [LM127]<b>From:</b> Mission: Possible at <i>The Christian Heritage</i>,
where [LM] references N.Lewis, <i>The Missionaries</i>, New York: McGraw-Hill 1988.</div>The author of that book (Norman Lewis) is a journalist.

Bharatvarsh · 01-13-2007, 07:19 PM

QUOTEThe All India Christian Council believes such an attitude could only be explained by the fact that the victims came from poor or dalit families, often from other states or belonging to religious minorities. The council sent a team to visit the afflicted families. The parents of the children who went missing say the children of rich or high caste families living in the surroundings had not lost their children. Even if they had gone missing, they were restored to their parents safe and sound, thanks to the help of the police and the authorities.

John Dayal, secretary-general of the All India Christian Council, said the magistrate of Chouhan district and the police stopped the councilâs fact-finding team because they thought that the Christian community was trying to get its hands on the relatives of the victims by helping them. Dayal replied by saying that the magistrate had not understood the reason behind the visit of the Christian delegation to the families of the victims, which was to take the love and care that Jesus taught to offer to those in need.

The relatives of the missing children told the Christian Council team that the police had refused to heed their initial reports about the disappearance of their children.

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=8163&size=A
These bastards will not even let the people mourn their dead in peace, they are like vultures looking for dead bodies to feast upon.
QUOTENow the All India Christian Council is asking that: the central government provide psychological support for afflicted families and those living in the fear that their children have been killed too; the state and central government supply legal aid for families of the victims; a high-level commission of inquiry is set up and daycare centres are established for children who do not go to school. Alternatively the children could be entrusted to services run by non-governmental organizations.

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=8163&size=A

01-16-2007, 01:47 AM

Just some late thoughts from the earlier discussion of cross-faith marriages of Hindus, and the resulting faith (or erosion of it) in their children.

<b>[A] </b>While I largely agree to the sentiment expressed here, but there are some exception examples we must mention and consider. (and analyze how this happens, so that it can be learnt and promoted)

<b>Sunita Williams</b>, the famous NASA astronaut who came to the lime-light recently due to her being a part of Discovery mission. Her father Dr. Deepak Pandya is a famous neuroanatomist, a Hindu, married to a slovanian lady Bonnie (not sure if she is christian but guess so). Sunita is married to another westerner Michael J. Williams, but (I guess) she has strong Hindu roots and certainly not ashamed of it, as she carried with her a copy of Bhagvad Gita and Ganesh Murti on space shuttle.

QUOTEWashington: A copy of the Bhagavad Gita, a small statue of Lord Ganesh and a letter written in Hindi by her father Deepak Pandya and some samosas in a special container will be among other things that Indian American astronaut Sunita Williams carried as she soared into space on board space shuttle Discovery toward the International Space Station that would be her new home in the stars for the next six months.
http://www.siliconindia.com/shownews/34251


her NASA bio: http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/williams-s.html

<b>[B] </b>I think Hindu groom and muslim/christian bride marriages are on the rise in the "modern" sections of Indian soceity. (Hritik Roshan marrying Sanjay Khan's daughter, likewise Nafisa Ali and Ismat Chugtai's daugher marrying Hindus, and recently Sanjay Dutt (re)marrying a muslim actress who by the way had taken a Hindu-sounding name)

So while earlier the inter-faith marriages were one way traffic, now it is largely the otherway round (?). Therefore important to analyze the impact.

During Shahajahan's time, this type of intermarriage was seen as eroding the Islamic faith. Was especially happening in Kashmir. So the Islamic law was strictly reinforced by Mughals in Kashmir that "a muslim woman can not marry a non-Muslim man, while the otherway round is possible (and welcome, rather sought after!)"

<b>[C] </b>Hindu-sounding names have started being adopted by Indian muslims also! Seen several examples. Did you know about Mukesh Bhatt and Mahesh Bhatt?

<b>[D] Stand of Islamic Law on this situation.</b>
I saw one interesting discussion on a Pakistani website.

QUOTEI have some questions that needs some answer.Â Any reply that clearly states the stance of Islam on the query is welcomed.

Scnerio 1 (Both parties are Muslim)

Girl falls in love with a boy.Â They r both 21 years old.Â Girls parents reject the love.Â What are the girl's choices?Â Can she reject her parents and marry the boy?Â Is it premissible under Islamic law?

Scnerio 2 (girl is muslim Boy is not)

Girl falls in love with a boy.Â They r both 21 years old.Â Girls parents reject the love.Â What are the girl's choices?Â Can she reject her parents and marry the boy?Â Is it premissible under Islamic law?

Scnerio 3 (Boy is muslim girl is not)

BoyÂ falls in love with a girl.Â They r both 21 years old.Â Boy's parents reject the love.Â What are the boy's choices?Â Can he reject his parents and marry the girl?Â Is it premissible under Islamic law?


answer:
QUOTEIslam was probably the first to introduce "cotractual nature" of marriage in this subcontinent. In many ways it is part of an excellent civil law system even if it appears to be loaded heavily in favour of Muslims, as it is supposed to be since it IS meant for Muslims!

Many therefore consider a Muslim marraige to be not a sacrament but just a civil contract. (Bit "Secularish", isn't it?) That is a rather shallow view even if not incorrect. More appropriate would be to say that it is BOTH in the nature of "Ibadat" ( devotional act) and "Muamlat"(non-religious dealings among men). Neither has precedence over the other nor are they exclusive of either. Therefore both considerations,religious and mundane come into consideration. It follows, marrying an Idolator or a Fireworshipper is just not on unless the other party converts with full faith before the marraige since both parties should be "equal", the minimum denominator being commanality of Faith.

If requirement of such a minimum equality is not met, such a marriage can not be legal under Islamic laws. But then the dice does get loaded in favour of a man on selective basis as in "temporary marriages" or "Muta" among certain Shias..

However, <b>as per Hanafi School of jurisprudence (started by Imam Abu Hanifa) practiced in India,in EXCEPTIONAL cases,a Muslim man may marry a "Kitabiya" (Christian or Jew) woman but a Muslim woman can not marry anyone other than a Muslim.</b>

Bharatvarsh · 01-16-2007, 02:40 AM

QUOTEPongal gets a secular touchÂ

Nagarcoil, PTI:

Giving a secular touch to the Pongal festival traditionally celebrated by Hindus, a group of Christian women today performed the ritual connected with the event at a church compound near here today.

According to church sources, about 100 women joined the festival by preparing the traditional 'pongal prasadam' -- a mix of rice, jaggery and milk -- in earthen pots in the compound of the St Mary's Church at Mulakukad near here.

The prasadam was then taken inside the church to be offered to the Lord seeking divine blessings for peace, prosperity and joy, they said.

In a similar gesture, a mass 'pongala' was organised in Agastheeswaram village near Kanyakumari where people cutting across religious barriers participated in the ceremony connected with the harvest festival.

Meanwhile, Kanyakumari Devi temple and other shrines in the district witnessed heavy rush as hundreds of pilgrims returning home after the Makaravilakku festival in Sabarimala had a stop-over there.

http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/j...54992007115.asp
What nonsense, if Hindus celebrate it then it's not secular but as soon as xtians touch it becomes a "secular touch", secular in the real sense means something totally neutral and unconnected with religion, this is all part of the overall inculturation strategy to subvert dharma and reap a harvest among the illiterate Hindus.

**shamu** · 01-16-2007, 10:53 AM

So, it is the next step after secularising Kerala's Onam and Vidyarambham.

**acharya** · (This post was last modified: 01-16-2007, 09:54 PM by acharya.)

http://www.axisoflogic.com/cgi-bin/exec/vi...e=135&num=19191

Monkeys are preferable as ancestors over the bibleâs God anytime!
By Lee Salisbury
Jul 13, 2005, 21:26

Email this article Printer friendly page

Fundamentalism is in denial over their Godâs morality

Have you ever heard a fundamentalist preacher carrying on about the devastating effects of teaching evolution? They say, âIf people believe evolution is true then humans will behave like monkeysâ¦.there will be no right or wrong and immorality will run rampant.â

Such preaching provokes me to ask: why is teaching that humans are created in the image of the bibleâs God more beneficial than teaching that monkeys might in some way be distantly related to humans? Comparing the bibleâs God with monkeys should not be too difficult.

The bibleâs God acknowledges he creates evil and darkness (Is. 45:7; Lam. 3:38; Amos 3:6). He also claims to be justified in condemning all humanity to eternal punishment because of Adam and Eveâs foreknown disobedience (Rom.5:18). His stopgap plan of salvation, improvised before the foundation of the world (I Pet.1:19-20; Rev.13:8) to solve the sin problem of his creation, provided for only a mere fraction of Adamâs descendants. However, the bibleâs God absolves himself of all responsibility (no wonder the White House worships him) and claims that the humans he created in his image are to blame for sin. Excuse me, but I cannot imagine a monkey engaging in premeditated failure, nor condemning other monkeys for a crime that they did not commit, nor demanding a degree of punishment far in excess of the alleged act, especially if the monkey in charge is himself the creator of evil. Would not such egregious actions be beneath the moral standards of monkeys?

Godâs further actions expose his character. God sent lying spirits (II Chron. 18:22) and tells his prophet Samuel to lie (I Sam.16.2) even though he commanded Israel not to bear false witness (Ex.20:16). He instigates the gang rape of Davidâs completely innocent concubine as punishment for Davidâs sin (II Sam. 12:11) showing Godâs standard of justice. God orders Saul to slay âman, woman, infant, and sucklingâ (I Sam 15:3) showing Godâs concern for the sanctity of life.

In over 45 instances in the Old Testament, God either personally kills or orders Israel to kill people, once for an offense as slight as picking up sticks on the Sabbath (Num.15:32-36). This God qualifies as a serial killer. In the New Testament, he tortures people for eternity. Humane parents have a constructive, redemptive purpose in punishment. This inhumane God has no purpose other than punishment for the sake of punishment. He makes Saddam Husseinâs Abu Ghurayb torture chambers look like a playpen. To worship this God, one must relish sadomasochism.

Is Jesus different? The Sermon on the Mount and instances of Jesusâ showing mercy and forgiveness offer some hope. However, as we read on, we find Jesus typifies the saying, âlike father, like son.â Jesus declares that all who believe in him shall do the same works he did (Jn.14:12), which if true means Christians should turn water into wine, heal the blind, deaf, and sick, plus raise the dead. Jesus tells his disciples they will not taste death before his coming again in glory (Mt.16:28), which means those disciples must still be alive cause Jesusâ second coming has yet to happen. At Jesusâ trial, Jesus states that he taught nothing in secret (Jn.18:19) though he taught secrets to his disciples (Mt. 10-17). Jesus, in unstinted Inquisitional form, justifies slaying those who do not submit to him as Lord (Lk.19:27). Though Jesus promised he would return âquicklyâ (Rev.22:7, 12, & 20), his 2,000 year postponement indicates returning âquicklyâ was just another ill-informed promise to break. A brief summation is Jesus does not practice what he preaches, Jesus tells some absolute whoppers, and Jesus shows the same authoritarian murderous instinct as his immutable father Jehovah. âI, the Lord, do not changeâ (Mal.3:6).

What monkey has such a sordid history as the bibleâs God? If the only alternative in choosing an ancestor were between the bibleâs God and monkeys, any moral person would choose monkeys. Now we have a hint as to why The Treaty of Tripoli negotiated under George Washington, unanimously ratified by the US Senate, and signed into law by John Adams states, "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." Our founding fathers knew the bible.

Sacrifice for the sake of a good cause is normal, but to be in denial about the glaringly reprehensible actions of the causeâs founder indicates severe psychological dysfunction. Many theists and liberal Christian theologians wrestle with these problems. As a result, they reject fundamentalismâs biblical literalism and instead search for a deeper meaning in the myth of the Genesis creation story.

Whether it concerns Galileo Galilei or Charles Darwin, religion has an established history of fighting science whenever it threatens their belief system. Fundamentalismâs biblical literalism depreciates and distorts rational, evidence-based scientific thinking. Evolution has progressed in the last 150 years from an idea, to a workable hypothesis, to a provable theory. Its supporting evidence is overwhelming, just as it is that the earth is neither flat nor the center of the universe.

Maybe it is time fundamentalists appreciated monkeys a little more!

Â© Copyright 2005 by AxisofLogic.com

**acharya** · 01-16-2007, 08:39 PM

QUOTE(ashyam @ Jan 15 2007, 05:23 PM)So, it is the next step after secularising Kerala's Onam and Vidyarambham.
[right][snapback]63131[/snapback][/right]


Is it because Kerala people are moving away from Hinduism but want to keep the image
of Onam and Vidyarambham as a state festival.

It may become christian festival in due course.

**shamu** · 01-18-2007, 10:45 AM

A large number of hindus in Kerala are controlled by communist party. First thing that happened was the religious significance of most of the festivals were slowly eroded. It is routine to see that by the time Onam comes there will be articles in the paper arguing that Mahabali was an asura king and devas sent him to Patalas. By celebrating visit of asura king we are more conmfortable with asuras than devas. You will always see athiests writing in the newspaper in December about Makara Jyothi at Shabari mala Ayyappa temple.

Another thing was destruction of joint family system actually made these festivals to be just another occasion to have feast.

I think it was during the Congress rule the govt took over Onam festival celebration where it started decorating important places with lights and all. By making it a public festival it got detached from personal touch. It is more like making holi an occassion to paint others while forgeting other aspects of the festival.

Seculaisation of Vidyarambham is church initiative and slowly secularists started giving support to it. Looks like church understood the importance of vidyarambham among people who consider education an important asset. As you said if left unchecked they could eventually become christian festivals.

There are reactions to these efforts by religious hindus as well. For example RSS celebrates Janmashtami with processions in all major towns and Krishna temples. Recently Vinayaka Chathurthi with idol immersion is becoming popular. Ponkala festivals, where women cook food in front of a goddess, is also becoming more common.

However, what I consider as the root cause of destruction of Hindu festivals is nuclearization of families which actually removed the role played by elders.

Bharatvarsh · 01-19-2007, 11:26 PM

QUOTEIshwar Sharan's rejoinder to Paulo Coelho's paean to Francis Xavier

Who was the "saint" and what were the "good deeds" he performed in India?

In a propaganda coup that would leave a Jesuit missionary strategist breathless, popular author Paulo Coelho has written a romanticized eulogy of the notorious 16th century Jesuit missionary Francis Xavier. Coelho is a born-again Catholic who has received a certificate from the Pope and is a candidate for Opus Dei.

Paulo Coelho does not think Indians know their own history or that of the Spanish missionary. He tells us as much in an article called "Francisco of Xavier" published in the Chennai edition of The Deccan Chronicle on 3 November 2006. The Deccan Chronicle accommodates him without thought or concern for the intelligence or feelings of its mostly Hindu readers. Many of these readers are deeply offended by Coelho's praise of a psychopath who today would be put on trial for fomenting religious hatred and crimes against humanity.

The truth, documented, that Francis Xavier was a religious bigot and temple-breaker who believed in forced conversion and invited the Inquisition to Goa to further this evil practice, is not a truth these editors want to know. They prefer Paulo Coelho's truth, seemingly innocuous but very misleading. In his paean to Francis Xavier, Coelho writes:

Francis goes to Rome with Ignatius and asks the Pope to recognise the (Society of Jesus). The Pontiff agrees to meet the students, and in order to stimulate them he gives his consent. Francis--who is deadly afraid of ships and the sea--sets off alone to the Orient, imbued with what he considers to be his mission. In the next ten years he visits Africa, India, Sumatra, the Moluccas and Japan. He learns new languages, visits hospitals, prisons, cities and villages. He writes many letters, but none--absolutely none--makes reference to "tourist" spots in these places. He comments only on the need to bring a word of encouragement and hope to those who are less privileged.

Five hundred years later in the city of Ahmedabad in India, a teacher asks his pupils for a biography of Francis. One of the boys writes: "He was a great architect, because all over the Orient there are schools that he built and that bear his name."

Antonio Falces, who directs one of these colleges, tells me he heard two people chatting: "Francis was Portuguese," said one.

"Of course he wasn't. He was born and buried in Goa," answered the other.

They are both wrong, and they are both right: Francis came from a small village in Navarra, but he was a man of the world, and everybody considered him a part of their own people. Nor was he an architect specialised in building schools, but, as one of his first biographers says, "he was like the sun, which cannot move forward without spreading light and heat wherever it passes."

The "encouragement and hope" that Francis Xavier brought to the "less privileged" people of India, and the "light and heat" that he shed on them, is best described in his own words in a letter he sent to Jesuit headquarters in Rome;

Following the baptisms, the new Christians return to their homes and come back with their wives and families to be in turn prepared for baptism. After all have been baptized, I order that everywhere the temples of the false gods be pulled down and idols broken. I know not how to describe in words the joy I feel before the spectacle of pulling down and destroying the idols by the very people who formerly worshipped them.

Xavier did this after the Hindu Raja of Quilon had given him a large grant to build churches. In another letter he writes:

There are in these parts among the pagans a class of men called Brahmins. They are as perverse and wicked a set as can anywhere be found, and to whom applies the Psalm which says: "From a unholy race, and wicked and crafty men, deliver me, Lord." If it were not for the Brahmins, we should have all the heathens embracing our faith.

Francis Xavier was the pioneer of anti-Brahmin rhetoric in India. It would be adopted as a major propaganda tool by all Christian denominations operating missions in India, and it became a dominant theme in the speeches and writings of Indian secularists after Independence. A Muslim or Christian defending his faith is a hero or a martyr recognised in the world, but a Hindu doing the same in his own village is reviled as a "wicked and crafty man born of a unholy race." Such is the perversion of Christian and secularist dialectic in the 16th century and today.1

Xavier's violent career in India destroyed families and ancient cultured communities, and alienated the new converts from their society and Gods. It left them without love for their neighbors or a universal ethic to live by. It destroyed their faith. In Christian doctrine, to attack a man's faith is a sin against the Holy Spirit. It is a sin that cannot be forgiven. It is the sin Francis Xavier is guilty of. But Xavier was a Christian missionary and his victims were heathens not human beings, and instead of being condemned he was canonized and made a saint. Such is the perversion of Christian reason and the evil deeds that follow from this reasoning.

Francis Xavier begged his superiors in Rome and Portugal to send the Inquisition to India so that he could continue his mission of forced conversions. He died before the Inquisition could arrive. He could not have the pleasure or satisfaction of watching obstinate Hindus and backsliding converts, their breasts and genitals cut off, burn at the stake in Old Goa. But he did gain a posthumous victory over the hated Brahmin. His bones lie in a silver casket in the Basilica of Bom Jesus in Old Goa, the church built on the site of an ancient Shiva temple destroyed by the Portuguese.

The Deccan Chronicle does not publish any of the letters of protest it receives concerning the article. Like its sister publication the Asian Age, the Deccan Chronicle is a Christian-oriented masala newspaper edited by the militant secularists M.J. Akbar, Naazreen Bhura, and Seema Mustafa. They do not tolerate dissent or opinions critical of themselves or their contributors. Their newspapers are a business to make money, not a forum for debate. Facts and figures are extraneous irritants to be ignored, except where the facts and figures can be employed in Hindu-bashing exercises.2 At the same time, M.J. Akbar and Seema Mustafa pontificate loudly and at great length about ethical journalism, free speech, and telling the truth in print however unsavory the truth may be. Both editors are bare-faced hypocrites. Contact them and Paulo Coelho at:

Deccan Chronicle at editor@deccanmail.com and info@deccanmail.com
and
Paulo Coelho at paulocoelho.com
Click on Message for the Author.

Foot Notes

There is a story that the first debate Francis Xavier had with Brahmins took place in the Tiruchendur Murugan Temple on the south coast of Tamil Nadu. He preached and they listened carefully. Then they laughed. They told him that his conception of God was immature and inadequate. God was beyond number and count, neither one nor three-in-one as he claimed. His idea that God had only one incarnation in history was absurd. It placed unacceptable limitations on an all-powerful, all-pervasive God. Xavier left the temple courtyard in defeat, to proselytize the helpless fisherman, and Brahmins became his feared, implacable enemy.

An example of an anti-Hindu exercise is the use of the term "idol" for Hindu images. Technically correct, the word is loaded with negative connotations and is part of the abusive rhetoric of Christian evangelists. The same newspaper on another page uses the neutral term "statues" for Christian images. Clearly, there is editorial bias at work here. In the forty years that I have lived in India, I have never met a Hindu who worships idols. Hindus worship God, and even a simple village woman knows that God is spirit not stone.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article quoted "Francisco of Xavier" by Paulo Coelho, English translation {C} James Mulholland, published in the Deccan Chronicle, Chennai edition, 3 November 2006. Article quoted in part only.

References:
Sita Ram Goel in "Francis Xavier: The Man and His Mission", New Delhi, 1985
A.K. Priolkar in "The Goa Inquisition", New Delhi, 1991
G. Schurhammer in "Francis Xavier: His Life, His Times", Rome, 1973-82
K.M. Panikkar in "Malabar and the Portuguese", Bombay, 1929.

http://hamsa.org/coelho.htm

**acharya** · 01-21-2007, 01:51 AM

http://news.sawf.org/Lifestyle/31564.aspx

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