Sethusamudram Project Facts Vs. Myth

[Guest]

Slight diversion, if allowed. Sir William Wilson Hunter, in 1886, wrote in The Imperial Gazetteer of India, that:
In year 1306, Malik KafUr, the slave general of Ala-ud-dIn khilji, traveled to Rameshwaram and erected a mosque there, while he could not destroy the great temple.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-kalyan97+Mar 11 2007, 04:19 PM-->QUOTE(kalyan97 @ Mar 11 2007, 04:19 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Mar 11 2007, 01:25 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bodhi @ Mar 11 2007, 01:25 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> As for this portion of post 11:...And the irony of all that beats me is this.  The Chairman/CEO of Sethusamudram CL is Shri N.K. <span style='color:red'>Raghupathy</span>.  They found a person with perfect name to damage the Ramar bridge! [right][snapback]65480[/snapback][/right]
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There is the further irony, Bodhi ji. The criminalised polity is adding insult to injury. It is learnt that with the failure of the first rig, the second rig is to be named as 'Hanuman'. This is the level of respect in Hindu rashtra for the sacredness associated with ramasethu as ramamandiram. I saw a beautiful rendering of Ramayana for children made by a Japanese company. There is a song there which my grandchildren enjoy the most. They sing: rammandir, rammandir as they walk across the ramasethu. No wonder, the 1747 map prepared by Netherlands, calls Rames'waram, Ramancoil I.

Here are some latest developments, just reported. k

11 March 2007

Proceed Along Alternative Route -Preserve Ram setu

Appeal by the Sarsanghachalak and Sarkaryavah
to the Government on Setu Samudram Project
___________________________________________________________________
The RSS is deeply concerned over the avoidable destruction of the age-old under-sea bridge popularly known as Ram Setu due to the continuing dredging work under the Setu Samudram Ship Channel project near Rameswaram.
Crores of Hindus believe that this under-water wonder is the bridge constructed by Lord Ram with the help of vanaras during his campaign against Ravan. The satellite images released by the NASA a couple of years ago confirmed that there indeed exists a bridge-like construction in the sea-bed, thus fortifying the belief of millions of Hindus.
We understand the economic significance of the Setu Samudram Ship Channel project. However this projects involves complete destruction of this ancient bridge that is representative of Bharat's ancient-most and highly revered civilizational history. Besides destruction of Bharat's most cherished symbol of ancient heritage it also causes enormous damage to the flora and fauna. Already scores of rare sea animals like whales have been killed in the first phase of the project itself.
There has been a great anxiety and anguish ever since the Government of Bharat announced Setu Samudram project. Millions of people, including eminent archaeologists, environmentalists and historians, have opposed the project in the present form. About 5 million people have signed a petition urging the President of Bharat to intervene and save our national heritage.
A case has been filed by the revered religious leaders against the project in the Rameswaram court. Dredging equipment got damaged. Yet, it is most unfortunate that the Government is going ahead with a vengeance turning a blind eye to the objections raised by the right-thinking citizens of the country.
We are deeply concerned that soon the dredging work will reach the spot where the Ram Setu stands and in no time the most precious cultural and civilisational landmark of the Hindus will wither away.
We once again appeal to the Government to immediately stop the work on the project and appoint a committee to explore the possibility of finishing the project without destroying the Ram Setu. Experts have suggested that the objective of the project can be achieved by bypassing the ancient bridge and dredging along a different route, thus protecting the monument.
The RSS extends all its support to the campaign by the Dharmacharyas, archaeologists, environmentalists and other concerned citizens towards preservation of this ancient monument.
Sd/- Sd/-
(Mohan Bhagwat) (K.S. Sudarshan) Sarkaryavah Sarsanghachalak
http://www.rss.org/New_RSS/News/NewsDetail.jsp

Press release on Ram Sethu project
Poojya Sri Shankaracharya of Puri-Jaganath Peeta and Dr. Shiva Subramanya, a very well known US Scientist and Space / Defense Systems Engineer, met Hon. Rastrapati (President) Dr. Avul Pakir Jainulabdeen (APJ) Abdul Kalam on 17 Feb. 2007 in Rastrapati Bhavan to discus the details of Sri Rama Sethu / Sri Hanuman Sethu as it is threatened by an on-going dredging operations.
Poojya Swamiji, on behalf the Saints, Sadhus and other organizations, asked the President to immediately Refer the matter to the Supreme Court of Bharat and thus stopping the dredging operations and undertake the necessary Archeological, Anthropological, and other Scientific Investigations to verify the antiquity of the Sri Rama Sethu and also save the site as a Bharat/World Heritage site, per United Nations and UNESCO.
Dr. Shiva Subramanya, on behalf of Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and Hindu Heritage Foundation of Bharat and US, presented some 14 chart Power Point Presentation containing some of the Photographs taken from various Space-based sensors owned by US, EU, Russia and Indian Space Organizations over the past 20 plus years. The President asked many pertinent questions and Dr Shiva answered all of them to the satisfaction of the Rastrapa
The meeting lasted about 45 minutes. After the meeting with the President, Swamiji addressed the News Organizations outside the Presidential Chambers and said that a conspiracy against the Hindus is being hatched in India and elsewhere and a systematic destruction of the heritage of the Hindus is taking place in India and the Saints will not sit idle by.
http://www.rss.org/New_RSS/News/NewsDetail.jsp
[right][snapback]65482[/snapback][/right]
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[Guest]

[quote=narayanan,Mar 11 2007, 09:16 PM]Ah! Thank you!
Now it comes out: (Only progress between <b>1998</b> and [b]May 2004[/b

I will NOT participate on this forum any further. I will NOT deal with dishonesty of a person impelled by 'intelligence' who refuses to review the 5 alternative alignments in the context of the tsunami and the FACT that the Ramarsethu continues to be seen on IRS 1-C and 1-D satellite images even after the Dec. 24, 2006 tsunami. The sethu has not disappeared and will not disappear. It is easy to offer ivory tower 'pseudo-advise' or 'pseudo-scientific' approaches sitting in the cozy comforts of US academe; the reality on the ground will not go away It appears there is a reluctance to understand what happened during the tsunami and how the channel alignments were not re-evaluated before peremptory decisions were announced to meet the deadline of July 2, 2005 inauguration. Sure, the pundit commentator cannot smell a rat because he is immune to heritage concerns in the name of 'progress'. What is needed is progress with compassion. Ramsethu will be saved, whether the commentator likes it or not.

This forum discussion will go nowhere when only arrogance is displayed and swear words are used (both on and off forum in private mails) treating this as a polemical issue.

So, I am signing off. Bye.

k

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-kalyan97+Mar 11 2007, 08:55 PM-->QUOTE(kalyan97 @ Mar 11 2007, 08:55 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The sethu has not disappeared and will not disappear. Ramsethu will be saved, whether the commentator likes it or not.
[right][snapback]65509[/snapback][/right]
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Kalyan Ji, if you still happen to be reading this, this is for you:

तद अद्भुतम राघव कर्म दुष्करम, समैक्य देवाः सह सिद्धाचारणैः
उपेत्य रामम सहिता महर्षिभिः, समभ्यसिंचन सुशुभैः जलैः पृथक
जयस्व शत्रुन नर देव मेदिनीम्, सागरम पालय शाश्वतैः समाः
(Valmiki Ramayan, Yuddha Kandam sarga 22 - 86 and 87)

Then, seeing the impossible mission of constructing a bridge on the ocean, which was both amazing and arduous, having been accomplished by Raghav - all Gods, Siddhas etc appeared and consecrated with devine waters. They exalted the great scion of Raghu, duly respected by kings, and announced: “O, Ram! Defeat these enemies. This earth and this ocean are eternally for you to rule, for ever.”

and in a different context:

न हि राज्यम अधर्मेण भोक्तुम क्षणम अपि त्वया
शक्यम मूर्ख सहायेन पापेन अविजितात्मना
(Valmiki Ramayan, Yuddha Kandam, sarga 41 - 70)

[Sri Ram asks Angad to convey to Ravana that,] You hope to rule a kingdom with Adharma, counting upon the help from these sinful idiots that surround you? Know this, that you are not going to enjoy this kingdom even for one other moment, you that know not your own self.

[Guest]

Post 23 Kalyan97:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I will NOT participate on this forum any further.
So, I am signing off. Bye.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Please reconsider. Stay.

I'll speak for myself. I'm grateful for this issue to have been brought to my attention, I did not at all know Ramar's Bridge was in danger.

On the matter of tsunamis, after the news reports about it were slowly dying down, they had a brief program here (documentary-like, but with news person discussing the topic with a few scientists as well as showing footage and simulations) about how the threat of tsunamis recurring in the same region was still there and how there was a need for an impact-minimisation plan (evacuation mainly) and of course the requisite warning system.

As for Sonia's participation in the issue, the references to 'Adam's bridge' (sicK), the euphoria over 'finally implementing' the christocolonial plan - I think these people already know full well that the chances of repeat tsunamis are anything but unlikely. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they actually hoped for more - and think that doing away with Ramar's Bridge will make the impact all the greater.
How else can missionaries hope to convert heathen people, if the people are not in desperately dire straits to need missionary aid? Sonia and her foreign bosses might not be able to precipitate tsunamis, but they certainly can try to ensure that the 'natural' impact of such disasters is as bad as can be. Then they can fly their little terrorist nuns out all quick-and-speedily to bring jeebus and other goodies to the victims.
Why else have they not called for updated data that takes the recent tsunami into consideration? These low-lifes are so low, I'm feeling more than mere suspicion that they are actually banking on a repetition of the disaster.

Besides, Ramar's Bridge is a symbol of Hindu continuity, and as all things in Ancient Religions, it has its own spiritual significance and power. The catholic church believes very much in that sort of thing (it's one of the main reasons why they kept building churches over very sacred heathen sites and shrines all over Europe and the Levant - a victory for them in 'ending' the spiritual power of those sites over the heathens they wanted converted). The Roman church as well as the fundoos certainly believe in breaking other religions' spiritual centres, so I won't rule out this aspect in driving Sonia and her gang's designs. I don't want Hindus to go extinct by inaction as others would like us to become. To people who can only think of (ever-temporary) progress, such things may not matter: what's another temple, what's another ancient sacred site, what's another naturally-formed linga structure ('it probably is a coincidental formation that's not really a linga but that people worship as one')? But I'm not one of those people.
To me the Uluru in Australia is a sacred mountain, and I would never climb it as tourists regularly do and about which the Aborigines weep over as it is so sacred one is forbidden to trample on it. And sacred Native American sites are sacred to me too. And likewise, and in a more personal way, Ramar's Bridge is very sacred to me. It should not be tampered with - there is certainly no need for it, except for the desperate villains who see this as another victory over Hinduism.

I hope Hindu organisations do get the UNESCO to mark it as a heritage spot, <i>before</i> the evil Santa Sonia and her cronies do anything. And for that to happen, Kalyan97, I think you need to keep writing in a public space on this topic, so that Hindus take action by signing that petition or taking it to a higher authority like the SC or whatever way they find they can do their bit.

[narayanan]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->the Ramarsethu continues to be seen on IRS 1-C and 1-D satellite images even after the Dec. 24, 2006 tsunami. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<b>THANK YOU!!!</b>

In other words, the 2004 tsunami did NOT seriously affect even a sandbank in that region - <i>because it is in the lee of Sri Lanka</i> - whereas the 4-year occurrence of cyclones HAS drastically affected the sandbank (I have seen that with my own eyes, following the 1965 cyclone) - new water channels were formed (IOW, Shri Ramar, PBUH, would get his fine pointed shoes very wet if he tried "Sethu-ing" through), the sandbank was cut in several places, washing off rail tracks, a train, all its passengers, etc.

Doesn't this complete the demolition of the Tsunami Will Devastate Kerala nonsense?


Regarding "swear words" etc.:

The author emailed me his propaganda petition. I asked him to reconsider, since pushing such propaganda would demolish the credibility of his otherwise excellent research (the Saraswati foundation).

His response was "in-my-face". Challenged me to "post your views on any forum". I did.

Since the extreme nonsense of the theories he was pushing were exposed clearly, instead of backing off, he sent me further garbage. I informed him that that was garbage, and asked him to stop spamming me, requesting that he continue his debate on the open forum.

Figures, but sad to see, that he is now pouting off. Usually happens to people whose ego gets in the way of their reason, and hence gets deflated. Sorry about that, but like I warned him to begin with, pushing political garbage blindly, can lead to loss of credibility.
Q.E.D.

Sorry to see such childishness.

[narayanan]

To dear Husky:

Pls try going to "Google" (basic one is enough, no need for Google Earth) and zoom in on the "Ramar Bridge" area. You will find a few things:

1. The Ramar Sethu is broken at Pamban, where there is a rail bridge (maybe also a road bridge now) that is about a mile long. The depth is quite a bit there. Surely there is no land connection, and has not been for ages.

I suppose it was sacrilegious for that bridge to be built, OVER the Ramar path, but there is no other way for ppl to get across to Rameswaram.

2. The sandbank apparent on space images appears to be the edge of a sort of high plateau in that whole Palk Bay region. Beyond, the sea gets much deeper.

There <i>are a lot of breaks in that sandbar, probably some already as deep as 12 meters</i>[B] or whatever the SSC is going to be. So there IS NO CONTINUOUS surface there, and has not been for ages.

3. Putting in a 300m wide, slightly deeper channel there does nothing, not nearly as disruptive or sacrilegious as building the Pamban bridge and having ppl Pu into the Pamban from the fine Indian Railways trains that pass across a few times every day.

4. There is already some sort of artificial (meaning built in past 50 years) breakwater beyond Rameswaram, probably since the cyclone of 1965 that completely changed the topography. After the cyclone the place was cut into some 3 different islands, with strong currents in the channels in between. Like I said, NO continuous path from the Ayodhya or KishKindha to Lanka.

Millions of people clim up to Sabari Mala every year. Very holy place. Why is this sacrilege allowed? Shouldn't all travel be banned there too? They even have ELECTRIC LIGHTS there, haraam! haraam!

Yeah, I know, all just facts. Can't allow those to interfere with political posturing.

As for the "need" for the SSC to allow shipping through, rather than go 350 km (must around SL, well, there is no NEED for the Suez Canal or the Panama Canal, or airports or seaports or anything else, come to think of it.

All they are proposing to do here is to build a sustainable canal, with a RELIABLE depth chart so that ships can go through. You won't be able to see this channel where it crosses the "Ramar Bridge". GOOGLE won't be able to see it either, and neither will
NASA. IOW, you won't know about it unless someone tells you it's there, and then you have to take their word for it.
Of course, you had no idea that there WAS such a thing at all, apparently..


Extending the "logic" of the propoaganda against the SSC, should one not ban and break down all the bridges across the Ganga?

Shouldn't it be haraam to dredge the port of Kolkatta since that is cutting into the Holy Ganga?

Shouldn't ppl at least quit going "Pu" into the Holy Ganga? If all these are halal, what's the big deal about a 300m wide shipping channel through a region where no one except the LTTE has any reason to go these days?

Dog-in-the-Manger is the Angreji term for those opposing this project on such bogus grounds.

[Guest]

I congratulate you for the knowledge of geography and history you have displayed in post 27, not to speak of the literary genius. As for me in the reply, I will try my best to steer clear of all unnecessary comments you made, and ignore them.

you said:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The Ramar Sethu is broken at Pamban, where there is a rail bridge (maybe also a road bridge now) that is about a mile long.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

First of all, check your data! Ramar Setu does NOT even start at Pamban!!!

Island of Rameshwaram, is about 11 miles in length and 6 miles in width. Pamban is on its WESTERN side, while Ramar Setu starts from the EASTERN tip of this island - Dhanush Koti - which is a good 10 miles away from the port of Pamban!

Refer to this image to understand the location of Ram Setu's beginning point - Dhanush Koti on the eastern side and Pamban on the western side:

<img src='http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/351/2113447210100818794S500x500Q85.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

and Ram Setu:

<img src='http://inlinethumb48.webshots.com/111/2584078110100818794S500x500Q85.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

cartographic image explaining this in next post since I can't post more than 3 images at a time.

The separation between mainlands and island of Rameshwar is less than 2 miles wide and is known as Pamban Channel. The railway and road bridges you mentioned is constructed over this channel to connect the mainland point called Mandapam, and the "western" tip of Rameshwaram called Pamban port. (The road bridge named faithfully as "Indira Gandhi Bridge" is a suspension structure, construction started in 1972 and completed in 1988. Railway brigde exists since 1911, and is collapsible which allows ships of smaller size to pass beneath it. (There goes one NEED of relief traffic reaching the dying children on east coast from the west coast, that you mentioned earlier, but did not respond to my post). See an image of a vessel passing beneath this bridge:

<img src='http://www.ramnad.tn.nic.in/images/Final_Scissors%20Bridge%20001.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Surely there is no land connection, and has not been for ages.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is only partly right, that too if 'ages' is to be left unspecified. Isle of Rameshwar may have actually been part of the main land at some point in time, or gap may have been much less than it is now. Even during sultanate era Malik Kafuur (and Amir Khusrau?) had traveled to Rameshwaram island 800 years back, records of which can still be found, and the description of the gap does not show that it was a difficult navigation.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Millions of people clim up to Sabari Mala every year. Very holy place. Why is this sacrilege allowed? Shouldn't all travel be banned there too?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Millions climb **FOR** pilgrimage. Unfortunately the point of the example Husky had sited was lost on you.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->As for the "need" for the SSC to allow shipping through, rather than go 350 km (must around SL, well, there is no NEED for the Suez Canal or the Panama Canal.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

A) Another marvel of your common sense that you have shown in this great comparision! Suez Canal saves the circumnavigation of the entire continent of Africa and Panama Canal saves that of South America. Setu Sagar Canal will save the shipping distance of about 350 miles, and a few hours of travel. Very comparable! Hats off to your objectivity!

B) Also you are sounding as if anyone is opposing the creation of the canal itself!!! Whereas in reality all the opposition is asking for is to modify the alignment of the proposed canal so as not to damage the Ramar Setu; and to review the design with respect to new data which has become available in terms of the Tsunami! Full stop.

However the real conflict is this. The propogators of **this and this and this design only*** totally deny (sometimes openly other times by ignoring) that there is any such thing as Ramar Setu which deserves to be preserved as heritage. And since there is nothing like Ramar Setu, let us just destroy the 'coral reef' after taking in account 'ecological' considerations as Sonia Ji is saying! This way they just pooh-pooh the heritage angle on the ground of 'What Ramar Setu - you mean Adms Bridge which is a sandbank"?

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->All they are proposing to do here is to build a sustainable canal, with a RELIABLE depth chart so that ships can go through. You won't be able to see this channel where it crosses the "Ramar Bridge". GOOGLE won't be able to see it either, and neither will NASA...
NASA<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

First of all the opposition is NOT to the canal, but to ***this design*** of the canal. Also do you know what you WILL have done for future in terms of geopolitics? You would create a precedence for Sri Lanka to also do something like this if they liked on their side of the water, to Ramar Bridge. Today Srilanka does not have such a need or resources, but who knows after 100 years? 200 years - the way Christos are recolonizing Sri Lanka? Just to demolish the oldest symbol of Hindu continuity. You can internally claim the heritage angle, but when it comes to international geo-politics they would not listen. Not if Sri Lanka goes the way it is going right now.

So issue is not just physical damage to Ramar Bridge, but ANY compromising change in status quo of Ramar Bridge. In fact that is one reason why probably RSS may have though of proposing to get this UNESCO Heritage status. That way it becomes internationally recognized as such.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->IOW, Shri Ramar, PBUH, would get his fine pointed shoes very wet if he tried "Sethu-ing" through
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I am not surprised that with your level of understanding of history and geography you have no basic understanding of even the epic called Ramayana.

Sri Ram lived barefooted all through his years during the vanavasa, as was befitting for vanavasi. In fact Yuddha Kandam relates about this that on that day of battle when Sri Rama and Ravana came face to face, Shri Ram was fighting barefoot whereas Ravana was on his mighty chariot. This subdued and overawed Vibhishan’s morale. When he spoke to Sri Rama in his low morale, Sri Rama replied saying, "Vibhishan, you see not my Vijaya rath? So what if I am barefooted? Chivalry tempered with patience are wheels of my invisible chariot, truth is its high-flying pennant, wisdom and valour are my horses, compassion is their reins and a prayer to the almighty along with the obedience to my Guru is the impenetrable armour. Pray, Vibhishana, what better chariot of war can there be, leading to victory?’’

May Purushottam Sri Rama give sadbuddhi to all.

[Guest]

<img src='http://www.clanforen.de/clanforen/images/smilies/smilies031205/rules.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Take a looong look at your posts, and deeeep breath before reply is posted, and avoid snide remarks........ Time may have come to lock up this thread...

[Guest]

This is for general information:
Uluru (sp?) is a reddish mountainous ancient natural structure (depending on definition of mountain - it may or may not be high enough to qualify, don't know) that is of tremendous spiritual significance to the Australian Aboriginals. It is not the only mountain that is of significance to them, as all of Australia is. However, it is specifically stated about Uluru in their religion that humans are not allowed to climb it - this is not the case with (all) other such ancient structures in their land. Many early christo migrants to Australia purposefully climbed it when they found out about this Aboriginal Law, because they knew it crushed the very sentiments of the people they had undermined.

Today, Uluru has become just a tourist attraction in Australia, allowing visitors from all over the world to walk up and down it - something that profoundly hurts the Australian Aboriginals; and I've seen footage of some Elders crying over this.
It is for this reason - because I acknowledge and respect the sanctity of Uluru and the ancient understanding that the Aboriginees have of it - that I will never knowingly or willingly set a foot on it. Instead I will admire it and show my respects to it from the ground.

But nowhere is it said that one may not walk on Sabari Malai when going on pilgrimage to visit our Lord Ayappa.



On another matter:
From post 16 where Bodhi posted Sonia's address on the matter of 'INAUGURATION OF THE SETHUSAMUDRAM PROJECT'. This is rather interesting:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->When the tsunami struck the southern coast, we shared in your sarrow and worked hard to ensure that the lakhs of families affected by the unprecedented calamity were provided adequate relief as quickly as possible.  Our country had not seen a natural disaster of this magnitude and the process of rehabilitation and reconstruction is a continuing one.  We are committed to implementing these plans.

Today’s youth is very keen on it. We have ensured that software is now available in Tamil so that young boys and girls from all over the state can acquire computer skills and literacy.

Our Government has already give Tamil the status of a classical language.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is her purpose in
(1) talking about the implementation of the Sethusamudram project
(2) then immediately thereafter talking about computer literacy and skills of Tamil kids, and software in tamil that the alien Royal 'We' has decided upon
(Many local software companies had already made software in Tamil, that was before Sonia came to power. What did she do?)
(3) then immediately thereafter Sonia talks about having benificently bestowed upon Tamil the status of classical language. (It is not for the queen to decide that Tamil is a classical language. It would be so even without her 'saintly blessing' and in spite of her coincidental agreement about it.)

From 2 and 3 it is most clear that Sonia's entire aim here is to remind the dravidianists gathered what the actual purpose of the whole thing is. The dravidianists - who think they can claim Tamil merely because they speak this language too (meanwhile, most Tamils are Hindus and do not belong to the self-deluded dravidianist clique).
And with this the connection with the Sethusamudram project and her bringing in Tamil becomes clearer.
She is clarifying the agenda here: dravidian and christo congress aspirations meet in this anti-Hindu enterprise of tampering with the Ramar Bridge, whose proper identification as such they take pains not to even acknowledge the existence of.

It is clear that this is an anti-Hindu matter for Sonia, her christo gang, her communist friends, and the dravidianists (increasingly many christos among its followers too).


Bodhi, as always, thanks for transcribing a beautiful verse (this time from the Ramayanam) in post 28.

[narayanan]

Noo relation to the sudden spate of petitions etc. I presume...

Hands off Ramar bridge: RSS

NT Bureau
Chennai, Mar 12:

The national council of the RSS has warned the Central government that it should be ready to face the consequences, if it destroyed the Ramar bridge in the Palk straits for the construction of Sethu samudram project.

On the concluding day of the three day Akhil Bhartiya Prathinidi Sabha (ABPS) � the national council meet at Lucknow, the RSS said by going ahead with the destruction of Ramar bridge, the government trampled upon the sentiments of crores of Hindus.

'The project smacks of a sinister design to destroy Bharat's age old heritage and world's most ancient man made structure much older than the pyramids of Egypt (4500 years) and the Great wall of China (2600 years),' a resolution passed at the end of the meet said and wanted to know why the government should not go ahead with alternative routes that do not destroy the Rama Sethu bridge.

The objections raised by the environmentalists and the livelihood concerns of thousands of fishermen were brushed aside and experts from the marine archaeology were not consulted.

'The ABPS wishes to remind all that Taj Mahal and Kutub Minar were saved from destruction. While these were only a few hundred years old, the Ramar bridge's historical antiquity goest back to several millennia.'

Even the British gazette records mention that people used to cross the sea over that bridge till 15th century. NASA images also show a 30km long chain of unique sand shoals.

'There is also a strong local tradition irrespective of religion that attaches great sacredness to the Rama Sethu bridge. The government should respect the senitiments of the people and protect it as a heritage site under UNESCO mandate.' Several other resolutions were also passed at the end of the three day national council meeting.

***********************************************************************

One must congratulate "Bodhi" whose posts I am supposed to have "not responded to" (perhaps because no postor of that name posted here before???) for the faithful generation of the science to match the policy decisions.

Now for some of the points above.

First of all, check your data! Ramar Setu does NOT even start at Pamban!!!

1. So we are asked to believe that the part of the archipelago/sandbank/Oldest ManMadeStructure that is between the Mainland and Pamban, is NOT part of the Ramar Sethu. It is NOT important to the Cultural History and Tradition and everything else of India. In other words, did Ramar and the entire Vanara Sena simply fly over, or did they ride across on the Dhanushkodi Passenger Train like I used to do? My mother always used to show us those huge boulder lying under the Pamban bridge and tell us the legends, and I used to wonder at the biceps on those heroic Vanaras who tossed them there.

you have no basic understanding of even the epic called Ramayana.

Sri Ram lived barefooted all through his years during the vanavasa, as was befitting for vanavasi.

No doubt, thank you, but have you watched the TV epic Ramayana? <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tongue.gif' /><!--endemo-->

Since Shri Ramar did not even have shoes, having left his shoes in Ayodhya as Bodhi so accurately points out, I do postulate that the devoted Vanara Sena would have bridged the first mile, before bridging the next 22 miles beyond. I know that science or engineering are not supposed to have anything to do with the miraculous Bridge, but to mere mortals, would it not make sense to make THAT land bridge first so that the boulders could be carried across by the squirrels, not to mention the Vanara Sena, much easier than taking them across in boats or swimming with them???

<i>So there goes any iota of legitimacy behind this obstruction campaign. "Bodhi" is willing to let that FIRST MILE of the Ramar Sethu - that FIRST MILE that was so heroically built so long ago, be cut, and lie cut, under the Pamban bridge, but is all cut up, no pun intended, about the proposed channel a dozen miles out in the sea.</i>
*******************************************************

OK, now that we have disposed of that, let's look at the other points raised so far:

1.

Also you are sounding as if anyone is opposing the creation of the canal itself!!!

Ah! Perhaps from misreading some of those shrill Petitions etc. above, starting from the one in the first post? A few days before that, the same author sent around a shrill demand for the Supreme Court to stop the project.

So now I am told that there is no objection to the Canal, just to its precise alignment to "not destroy the Ramar Sethu". That is indeed an improvement, I am happy to note.

<b><i>What! And risk that Tsunami which is due to arrive in 2064??? Won't it destroy Kerala now any more? </i></b> Shocking! Shocking!

2.

You would create a precedence for Sri Lanka to also do something like this if they liked on their side of the water, to Ramar Bridge. Today Srilanka does not have such a need or resources, but who knows after 100 years? 200 years - the way Christos are recolonizing Sri Lanka?

We are now told that the real risk is of setting a precedent. IOW, Sri Lanka MIGHT take advantage and cut a channel on THEIR side. <b><i>Not now, but maybe 100 years from now.</i> </b>

Is this reason enough to obstruct a project that is vital to Indian security? Whose side are these people on?

3.

Railway brigde exists since 1911, and is collapsible which allows ships of smaller size to pass beneath it. (There goes one NEED of relief traffic reaching the dying children on east coast from the west coast, that you mentioned earlier, but did not respond to my post).

Er... when there is a cyclone, the rail system tends to be affected, you see, for several miles inland. In 1965, that bridge was destroyed, and lay destroyed for quite some time, probably a few years. The bridge was in the water, so the channel was also blocked. A LOT of help that is in getting emergency help through to the stranded, starving people.

But again, that would have taken all of a moment's thought. Would that be too much to spend for someone so concerned about the children of India??

4.

Suez Canal saves the circumnavigation of the entire continent of Africa and Panama Canal saves that of South America. Setu Sagar Canal will save the shipping distance of about 350 miles, and a few hours of travel. Very comparable! Hats off to your objectivity!

I certainly don't claim to be objective - I don't give a flip about the Suez Canal or Panama Canal. But I DO think it is important for Indians to be able to travel in a continuous path along the Indian coastline without having to take a 350 mile detour through deep water, open ocean, around an often-hostile island. I suppose the patriots here (who, by the way, "certainly don't oppose the Canal" <!--emo&:whistle--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/whistle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='whistle.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) do not see that as a priority, being so objective??

My point was whether the canal is "essential" or not. If Indians don't need this canal, and should have to "spend a few more days" going around Sri Lanka to go from Toothukuti to Chennai, why shouldn't ocean-going vessels, aircraft carriers etc, not have to go around Africa or South America? Its only a few more days, and it's not even their own country?

5. Bodhi and Husky go to great pains to argue that other religious monuments / great traditional structures do not come with the stipulation that you should not poo on them, or step on them or lay roads through them.

But WHERE did Shri Ramar say that future generations should be idle, and not do esssential engineering, when his own Vanara Sena did not hesitate to undertake a massive, 30-mile causeway across a stormy sea, to go rescue Shri Sita?

IOW, it was OK for the Indian Army of 500,000,000,000,000 years or whatever ago, to undertake such a mammoth man-made project in the ocean, without Environmental Impact Studies or consideration of the 60-year tsunami cycle, BUT.... today's Indian Navy must take its ships around Sri Lanka to go from Chennai to Kochi??? If the LTTE kidnaps Indian fishermen, today's Indian armed forces cannot go after them?

Also, that it is fine for the FIRST part of the Sethu to be destroyed, and have tall sailboats pass right across at Pamban - BUT the part in the middle of the Palk Strait is sacred, not to be touched except by sharks?

<b><i>WHAT epic says this?</i></b> Where is the authority for the RSS or Shri Kalyanaraman (assuming these are different thinking entities..) to declare that the Ramar bridge should be neglected in any future engineering project, and left sunken and useless under the Palk Strait? Did Ramar appear in a dream, perhaps? Or is this in the Ramayana?

Or isn't this sheer shunakah-in-goshala obstructionism and backwardness?

*****************************************************************

So let's summarize where we stand:

1. The RSS (and Shri Kalyan / Bodhi) do NOT oppose the construction of the SethuSamudram Canal.

2. Their opposition is to the precise present design. They have proposed 5 alternatives, but not bothered to submit a full System Design Study on any of them. They feel that whatever System Studies done todate by competent authorities should be tossed out, and the project delayed indefinitely, until one of these un-studies "alternative" is accepted (at which time other obstructions will presumably be devised..)

3. Shri Bodhi / Kalyan apparently would like us to forget about his <b><i>Tsunami Is Coming! Only 57 more years! </i></b>shrill hype that was in the post that led me to start this thread. It violates the laws of conservation of mass and momentum, to say the least. Also, the Recommended Course there - to direct the northern mouth of the SSC to the West, towards the coast, would guarantee that the backwashed debris from any tsunami (or even a cyclone) would choke up the Canal, rendering it useless when it is most needed. IOW, this is a dumb suggestion.


A small snippet of the author Kalyanaraman's understanding of Dr. Murthy's recommendation, that he endorsed fully, is seen in the following. Here is the original comment from Murthy, as reported from his interview:

"A re-orientation of the eastern entrance of the channel <b>towards the northwest </b>will fix the tsunami problem," he added.

Here is Kalyanaraman's re-statement of that (see first post of this thread):

The most devastating comment on the project comes from Dr. Tad S. Murthy: "I like this (Setusamudram) project but there is a flaw. The entrance to the channel should be re-oriented <b>towards the eastern side. </b>Otherwise, there is a chance that it may create a deepwater route for another devastating tsunami. This may cause huge destruction in Kerala." Let me explain why the warning should be taken seriously.

Ah! An "explanation" that comes with such clear understanding of what Murthy was recommending!

The ancient saying about the Ramayana, invariant across all Indian languages, comes to mind:

Saara Ramayan patha. Phir poocha: "Seeth ko Rama kaun thi?"

Or the Malayalam saying, which translates to:

Let me explain what antimony is. I know it. It looks white like turmeric powder

4. There is absolutely no evidence of corruption in this project, contrary to Shri Kalyan's claim of "60% bribes" made in one of his first posts before he morphed into "Bodhi". Pressed on this claim he revealed that "60% is the going rate". IOW, that WOULD HAVE BEEN THE EXPECTED BRIBE IF his preferred clients had been the ones to start this project.

5. The project has been in planning and system studies for decades; however, THE ONLY PROGRESS IN THE SIX YEARS OF NDA RULE was some "NEERI" study, which PROVED THE ECONOMIC FEASIBILITY and minimum potential of the project. SINCE 2004, the project has moved ahead, according to the plans.

6. There has been no redirection of the plan since the 2004 tsunami, and this is cited as one of the major criticisms.

However, Indian Remote Sensing satellite images confirm the earlier NASA images, and show that the Ramar Sethu sandbanks/ Coral Reefs / ManMade Structure did not suffer in any visible manner during the tsunami, although the sea bottom was severely scoured in regions where the tsunami DID come through. IOW, this region was sheltered from the tsunami, being in the lees of Sri Lanka, as should be obvious. This debunks the objections based on tsunami dangers etc.

7. In summary, the main objection appears to be that the project is <b>actually being moved</b> under the UPA government, whereas the previous government failed miserably to make useful progress in six years. Whatever I may think about this or previous governments, the fact is that they were elected by the voters of India. So that IS the government of the time, and as long as that is the case, the present objections stink of partisan politicking. The opponents do NOT have a well-studied, well-documented, objective plan for the project - instead they have five half-baked "alternatives". Their rantings about the tsunami are not only bogus as in violating basic laws of physics, the conclusions are demonstrably disastrous if implemented and a tsunami ever does come through there from the expected direction.

In short, the Opposition's objections are not about the interests of the PEOPLE of India, but the interests of certain political entities.

Q.E.D.

My thanks to Kalyan97 / Bodhi etc. for the clear presentations that lead unerringly to this conclusion. Yes, I think it is time to lock the thread if the admins want to do so - I have satisfied my curioisity about this whole ruccus.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Shri Kalyan's claim of "60% bribes" made in one of his first posts before he morphed into "Bodhi".<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Kalyan97 and Bodhi are not the same members. Hopefully your jumping to wrong conclusions in this matter will not reflect poorly on your other arguments.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->So we are asked to believe that the part of the archipelago/sandbank/Oldest ManMadeStructure that is between the Mainland and Pamban, is NOT part of the Ramar Sethu.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Belief is the ABC of non-science which Abrahamic theologies depend on. There is nothing to be beleived in the above matter. This is the basic geography of the Rameshwar island, which anyone even remotely familiar with Rameshwar knows. In fact commendable is your insistance that even after I have presented the google maps and actual phot of the bridge, you are not ready to understand the difference between Pamban Channel and Ramar Setu. I am ready to take my chances again, in attempting one more time to explain this to you, by showing a simpler map of the Island:

<img src='http://inlinethumb45.webshots.com/3116/2943852290100818794S500x500Q85.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Hopefully this cartograph will be able to explain to you that Ramar Setu starts FROM Dhanush Koti, and NOT from Pamban as you repeatedly say. <b>I repeat</b>, Ram Setu's beginning point is Dhanush Koti which is on the eastern side of Rameshwar island, roughly 10 miles from the western side where Pamban ends. If this helps you, Rameshwaram island itself is NOT part of the Ramar Setu, but its western tip is one terminal point of the Setu. If you are not ready to understand even this, then I don't know where this dialog will go.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In other words, did Ramar and the entire Vanara Sena simply fly over, or did they ride across on the Dhanushkodi Passenger Train like I used to do?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is what happens when you refuse to even listen to experts like Kalyan ji or Dr. Ted Murthy who has spent his whole life studying oceans. Even a 12th class student familiar with the basics of oceanic geography will tell you the answer to this.

Have you ever heard of an ancient city called Dwarika which had once thrived, but later got submerged into the sea - and remains of which are now being excavated from several miles off the coast of Gujarat? Or why go that far back in history, have you heard about a submerged fortess few miles into the ocean from the shore of Malabar? Or have you heard of the lost temples of Mahabalipuram off the eastern coast?

Looks like you missed out on all the debate that is going on about global warming. You might have learnt this about Oceans. ASs is its dharma, Oceans keep creating and swamping islands, with the rise and fall of their water levels.

Rameshwaram, it is more than just possible by looking at its shape, may not even have been an island at some time, instead a tip of the mainland peninsula itself, or a rocky delta kind of geography. That is exactly why I had sited the records of Malik Kafuur's travels to Rameshwaram, as he had no difficulty raiding Rameshwar 8 centuries back - even when there was no Indira Gandhi Bridge. So even then, the gap might not have been that large as it is now. Tradition even has it that people used to just walk by on the natural bridge a few centuries back, upto Rameshwaram and even farther. I you challenge this, then I am ready to do some hard work and site proofs - though I wish we dont need that, since it is a very straight forward behaviour of Ocean.

If you will (as a well-wisher, I wish one day you will) gratuate from Ramanand Sagar's Ramayana to Valmiki's Ramayana or other Ramayanas (thanks to Valmiki for making sure of mentioning the geographies rather more clearly) - although he did mention a few islands in the Ocean when Sri Hanuman traveled to Lanka, somewhere in the middle of the Ocean, but no islands on the path of bridge when Nala designed it. A perfectly straight line, 100 yojana in length, with Heavy stones, large trees he said. Starting point, near Dhanushkoti where there is the ancient temple. Even on his way back, here he worshipped Shiva, with Sita establishing the Shiv Linga known as Sri Ramalingam.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->My mother always used to show us those huge boulder lying under the Pamban bridge and tell us the legends, and I used to wonder at the biceps on those heroic Vanaras who tossed them there.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You need not wonder so much, if you read Valmiki Ramayan. You will see the light if shown even from afar. Maharshi Valmiki says in Yuddha Kandam, Sarga 22, shloka 58:

hastimaatraan mahaakaayaaH paaSaaNaamshca mahaabalaaH
parvataamshca samutpaaTya <b>yantraiH parivahanti</b> cha

"...And then, those heroic Vanaras, who were of mighty strength and huge body, were emloyed in uprooting large-sized rocks from mountains and transporting these over equipments for conveying ("yantraiH parivahanti")..."

So doubtless, Valmiki does say "those Vanaras who were of might strength", but does also mention mechanical help in carrying huge rocks. Our respected mother may have rightly pointed you to the rocks. If Bridge has to ever be constructed from Dhanushkoti eastwards, then Vanaras would of course have to carry rocks FROM western side of dhanushkoti. (In fact who knows because they carried so much rock, that a gap started which later widened so much? I am just thinking whether it is an impossible explanation)

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->having left his shoes in Ayodhya as Bodhi so accurately points out<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

No Narayanan, those were not my words. I did not say Sri Ram left his padukas behind in Ayodhya. He did carry his along, until his noble younger brother Bharat came to him and requested to give him his charan padukas so that Bharat may administer the kingdom of Koshal in Sri Ram's name by proxy.

Now this is my speculation only: While Sri Ram may have had the padukas with him, he may not have been wearing these, as was the explicit condition of his Mother Kaikeyi that Ram goes in Vanavasi attire. More research needed.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->So there goes any iota of legitimacy behind this obstruction campaign. "Bodhi" is willing to let that FIRST MILE of the Ramar Sethu - that FIRST MILE that was so heroically built so long ago, be cut, and lie cut, under the Pamban bridge, but is all cut up, no pun intended, about the proposed channel a dozen miles out in the sea.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

If you dont like my name, I have no problem with it. All names we may wrongly think as our "identity", are false. By the way I like yours very much. Very much indeed. It begins with 'Nar' the man, and reminds the potential of the Nar which is Narayan. If I even have a son, Narayan is a very good name that I would consider. And also I will be humble, I am NOT Sri Kalyan Ji, had I been how would I have so much time to spare! ALthough I sure wish, he would have continued on the forum.

But back to the point, I hope to have clarified that if by the "first mile" you mean Pamban passage, even a most ordinary Hindu (by ordinary I mean non-academic regular like myself) who ever had the awesome fortune to visit teerthraj Rameshwaram, knows that Sri Ramar Setu starts from Dhanush Koti, which is 10 miles to the east of port of Pamban.

I will have to stop here for now to go back to other matters of life. Hope to provide rest of the reply later, though who knows what happens the next moment.

May Sri Ram give sadbuddhi to all.

[Guest]

I have been beset with personal responsibilities and could not participate in the forum for a while, and i was saddened to see 2 of the people with whom i have interacted for at least the last 8 years fighting publicly. Dr. K is no quitter and neither is N**3. I ask that there should be no snide comments in the forum and cut down the heavy sarcasm . Most of us come from a scientific background and would not deign to use such remarks in a discussion in a refereed journal .

Dr. K i ask that you reconsider leaving the forum. Every individual is valuable in this fight we are all engaged in to reestablish truth and dharma in the land and we cannot afford the luxury of disunity. The forum is not responsible for the views of individuals. We discourage the use of personal polemic in discussion but we cannot baby sit adults who insist on reverting back to their childhood, but the forum will act if guidelines are broken . I repeat the use of excessive sarcasm and snide remarks is unseemly and is unbecoming of the heritage we seek to uphold .

I need to come up to speed on this particular topic before i make a comment

[Guest]

'Stop Setu Samudram project'

Statesman News Service

BHUBANESWAR, March 21: Swami Nischilananda Saraswati, the sankaracharya of Puri Gobardhan Peeth, has called upon sants and sankaracharyas to voice protest against the proposed Setu Samudram Shipping Canal Project which, according to him, will destroy the historic bridge to Sri Lanka.

Addressing a Press conference here today, the Puri seer dismissed all talk of only clearing the sand and that the dredging would not effect the ancient bridge which enabled Lord Ram to cross attack Lanka.

On 4 April, all Hindu organisations will meet at Raipur to deliberate on the future course of action against such a disastrous project and again on 8 April, a meeting will take place in New Delhi, he added.

The Sankaracharyas will all meet on 18 May in Bangalore and finalise the action plan, he said. He suspected that India was undertaking the project at the behest of the USA, which wants clear and free access in the water ways. Wondering why political parties, particularly the BJP, was not raising its voice on this issue in Parliament, Sankaracharya said he had met Dr Murli Manohar Joshi and drawn his attention to it.

The Puri seer also said that he had met President APJ Abdul Kalam and expressed his concern over the project adding that Rameswaram, from where the project work began, happened to be dear to the President.

He lambasted the kind of pseudo secularism being professed in the country where anything that goes against the majority community and its feelings is ignored.

"Would any government dare take up such a project if it were linked to feelings or sentiments of the minorities," he questioned.

http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?...ess=1&id=150555



Project status till 20 March 2007



82.57% Palk Bay I Dredged Quantity - 11187796 cum till 20/3/2007

1.42% Adam's Bridge Dredged Quantity - 683982 cum till 20/3/2007

Palk Bay II Work not started http://sethusamudram.gov.in/Projectstatus.asp



Govt assures Hindu acharyas about Sethu project


OINEETOM OJAH

Posted online: Thursday, March 22, 2007 at 0000 hours IST



NEW DELHI, MAR 21: Faced with both religious and environmental protests, the government has assured Hindu acharyas that utmost care will be taken of the Adam's Bridge or Ram setu and the National Marine Park in the Gulf of Mannar while undertaking dredging and construction work for the Rs 2,400 crore Sethusamudram Ship Channel Project.

A case against the government for alleged violation of environmental impact assessment mandatory for such projects is already lying with the Supreme Court.

Minister for shipping, road transport and highways TR Baalu and minister of state for personnel Suresh Pachauri told a delegation of Hindu leaders led by Swami Paramatmananda Saraswati, secretary, Hindu Dharma Acharya Sabha that without prejudice to the on-going legal proceedings on the issue, due regard will be accorded to the socio-cultural sentiments of the Hindu society.

Both ministers said meetings with acharyas would be held frequently to discuss various aspects of the project, with special reference to the Adam's Bridge . Under no circumstance, the government will disrespect or disregard the religious sentiments of the people in implementing this project. They also offered the delegation a site visit along with project authorities, for a first-hand assessment of the work being implemented.

Baalu said detailed investigations, including borehole studies and other geological studies undertaken by the specialist agencies, have clearly stated the Adam's Bridge is a series of sand shoals created by sedimentation over a period of time. He also informed that the present alignment has been finalised after detailed deliberations and taking into consideration the location of existing temples in and around Rameshwaram as well as the National Marine Park.

The Sethusamudram project envisages the creation of an offshore navigation channel of nearly 167 km. It will have two legs of 54-km dredged channel in the Palk Strait off Point Calimere in the north and 35 km of dredged channel in the Adam's Bridge area.

The Dredging Corporation of India has already begun work around the Adam's Bridge and is expected to complete the project before 2008. Once completed, the channel is expected to save up to 424 nautical miles (780 km) and up to 30 hours of sailing time for ships between east and west coast. It will also facilitate ship movement between India and Sri Lanka. The width of the channel at seabed level has been proposed at 300 metres to provide for two-way navigation in the channel.

Various Hindu groups have already started protesting against the likely razing of the Adam's Bridge and Hindu outfits like Vishwa Hindu Parishad has threatened countrywide protests, if the route of the channel is not altered and the Adam's Bridge is left untouched. Puri's Shankaracharya Swaroopanand has already called on President APJ Abdul Kalam and requested him to intervene and save the ancient bridge.

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_st...ntent_id=158575