The Times of India reports
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NEW DELHI: Decks were cleared on Wednesday for India to jointly develop and produce the fifth generation fighter aircraft with Russia, with New Delhi making the "final choice" on the matter and Moscow saying the work on signing contracts on the deal could begin soon.
Observing that Russia had started developing the warplane about three years ago, visiting Deputy Premier and Defence Minister Sergei B Ivanov said "some time back, India showed interest in joining this project. It took them (India) some time to scrutinise the various options.
âNow, India has informed us that a final choice has been made. We can (now) open up contractual work for Indian accession to the project,â Ivanov told reporters at a joint press conference with his Indian counterpart A K Antony, after signing four documents.
Although interaction has begun on the joint development and production of fifth generation fighter jet, the actual signing of agreements could take some more time.
The two sides inked an inter-governmental agreement and a general contract for licensed production of the RD-33 aero engines.
A protocol of intent was signed by Antony and Ivanov on the medium-sized multi-role transport aircraft (MTA). The two leaders also signed the minutes of the sixth meeting of the Indo-Russia Inter-governmental Committee on Military Technical Cooperation.
The fifth generation fighter is based on the Sukhoi fighter and is expected to take its maiden flight in 2009.
âWe are looking forward towards joint development and production of the MTA for use in the Indian and the Russian air forces and for sale to third countries,â Antony said, after signing the pact.
Ivanov said discussions were also held on the prospects for the future supply of MiG-35 fighters to India. New Delhi has announced its intent of acquiring 125 multi-role combat aircraft as well.
The Russian Minister said talks were also held on repair and refurbishing of the heavy aircraft carrier 'Admiral Gorshkov' being acquired by India.
On his part, the Indian Defence Minister said Indo-Russian cooperation had transcended the buyer-seller relationship to joint research and development and production projects, the BrahMos cruise missile being a "successful chapter in our relations".
Observing that the bilateral relations had undergone "substantial transformation" in the recent past, Ivanov joined Antony in saying that the two countries would begin work on scientific and technological cooperation and work on joint projects from 2010.
"I can assure you that Russia will undertake every effort to develop all aspects of scientific and technological cooperation with India".
Referring to the BrahMos project, the Russian leader said there was a continuity of joint activity on the cruise missile and efforts were being made to develop a new highly effective cruise missile of a new generation.
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During the on going Aero India show currently on in Bangalore, two very significant incidence took place. First, an Advanced Light Helicopter crashed followed by the crash of a LCA based intermediate jet trainer. Both these may be termed as mare flying accidents but given the past record of the DRDO and its products, these incidents need not be passed on as accidents but I am sure the authorities will make full enquiry to find out the real cause.
India for quite sometime has been talking of acquiring 126 new generation jet fighters. At present several aircraft vendors are trying to impress the Indian decision makers with their products. The more delay that we cause by engaging in deliberations gives rise to fresh controversies and also gives ample time to the middleman to start exerting their influence and money power. In the whole process the procurement becomes more expensive. .
It is high time that the Government should realize this problem and should take a decision in the matter at the earliest. They have several options before them but the wisest should be to place order for different types of aircrafts instead of going in for one particular source.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ravish+Feb 10 2007, 02:21 PM-->QUOTE(Ravish @ Feb 10 2007, 02:21 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->It is high time that the Government should realize this problem and should take a decision in the matter at the earliest. They have several options before them but the wisest should be to place order for different types of aircrafts instead of going in for one particular source.
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<b>Ravish Ji :</b>
If IAF have ONE Type of Fighter - IAF will need ONE Inventory.
If IAF have IAF types of Fighters - IAF will need to have FIVE Inventories.
If IAF have many types of Fighters then IAF will need to have similar types of Pilots, Ground Crew, Maintenance Engineers etc. etc.
An example is the Air Lines Industry where you will find Standardization of Air Craft Types.
Cheers <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo-->
02-10-2007, 05:46 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-10-2007, 05:47 PM by ravish.)
[Nareshji,
Without deliberating, India can go in for 4 dozen each of Mirage-2000N and upgraded MIG-29 or 35 whatever you may call. We have the entire necessary infrastructure. This would fill up the immediate requirement. The rest of the numbers can be filled up with F-18, not so much for its strategic value but as a symbolic gesture towards USA, which of late has shown some interest to be in the same boat with us. It will also give a sense of perpetual insecurity to Pakistan. (Who thinks USA cannot survive without it)
Jai Hind
<!--QuoteBegin-Ravish+Feb 10 2007, 02:21 PM-->QUOTE(Ravish @ Feb 10 2007, 02:21 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->.......but given the past record of the DRDO and its products, these incidents need not be passed on as accidents
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Ravishji, care to explain more on the past record of DRDO, its products? Actually, I see this "line" only in Indian media but have never seen or read as to what they (media and parrots of the media lines) consider what a "successful" research organization is, benchmarks of a successful research org is, and what success is for them. Without knowing either, not in a position to portray DRDO in poor light myself, hence the honest query.
TIA
The term DRDO has been used in a broad sense. In fact the point of reference is the track record of Indiaâs own capacity to develop defense systems. The first major disaster had been he HF-24 Maruit fighter bomber. We were never been able to develop a suitable power plant to make full utilization of this magnificent flying machine. The second is the 105 Field Gun. This got inducted to the Army but no further development has taken place and even today we are searching the world market for our entire artillery requirement. The Abott self propelled gun was developed but in field trials it failed the tests. The story of Arjun Tank is well known and needs no repetition. The same is the case with the Nag and Akash missile, we are not comfortable of depending on these locally made systems and so continue relying on imported items. Yes DRDO can take pride of the fact that it has successfully developed ration packs for use at high altitude by our soldiers. I have sighted only a few examples. The most important drawback has been the delay in development of the systems and in cost over runs. Both of these have ensured that we are heavily dependent on imports.
02-10-2007, 11:29 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-10-2007, 11:36 PM by Naresh.)
<!--QuoteBegin-Ravish+Feb 10 2007, 05:46 PM-->QUOTE(Ravish @ Feb 10 2007, 05:46 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->[Nareshji,
Without deliberating, India can go in for 4 dozen each of Mirage-2000N and upgraded MIG-29 or 35 whatever you may call. We have the entire necessary infrastructure. This would fill up the immediate requirement. The rest of the numbers can be filled up with F-18, not so much for its strategic value but as a symbolic gesture towards USA, which of late has shown some interest to be in the same boat with us. It will also give a sense of perpetual insecurity to Pakistan. (Who thinks USA cannot survive without it)
Jai Hind
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<b>Ravish Ji :</b>
Things may have changed by now but during my time in the NCC Air Wing I remember tht each Fighter-Bomber Squadron comprises of about Twenty Air Crafts â possibly the figure has changed by now.
The I A F needs to add about Ten Squadron, 200 Fighter Bombers, to be able to attain a Strength of 44 Squadrons â Active Duty - by 2012.
As such I hope it opts for no more than Two Types as you will see from the following list that the IAF already has Four Types of Fighter Bombers â The Canberra is, I believe, a dedicated Bomber :
Mirage 2000
MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-25, MiG-27ML, MiG-29
Jaguar
Su-30MKI
Canberra
Of the MIGs only MIG 23 & MIG 27 have similar Engines i.e. the IAF is already servicing Seven to Eight Engines. Adding another two or three would even increase the logistics-maintenance problems.
As such the only thing one can say is to let the 126 Fighter Bombers come from the USA Stables i.e. F-18.
The F-16, I believe is out too old and the successor to the F-18 i.e. <b>the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter would cost about USD 60 Million Each</b>
For your information the F-2â Raptorâ would cost at least <b>the F-22 Raptorâ would cost at least USD 340 Million Each</b>
As such let us see what the Air Marshals will want but more important what the Defence Ministry Mandarins will let the IAF have. After all at the end of the day it does not matter what the Admirals, Air Marshals and Generals want. It all depends on the mood of the "Secretary" and his Team!
Regarding Pakistan worrying about IAF acquiring the F-18s : I think Pakistan will be very happy as Lockheed-Boeing will make Fat Profits on their sales to India so that the same can be âsubsidizedâ for supply to the US Government which will in turn supply them free to Pakistan!
Cheers <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Ravish+Feb 10 2007, 09:02 PM-->QUOTE(Ravish @ Feb 10 2007, 09:02 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->The most important drawback has been the delay in development of the systems and <b><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>in cost over runs.</span></b> Both of these have ensured that we are heavily dependent on imports.
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<b>Ravish Ji :</b>
Cost Overruns?
You will find the following interesting :
<b>F-22 Raptor History</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->In August 1991, the YF-22 was declared the winner. The F-22 passed milestone II in 1991. The System Operational Requirements document was validated by the Air Force and the Department of Defense (DOD) during the 1991 Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) Milestone II review. <b>At that time, the Air Force planned to acquire 648 F-22 operational aircraft at a cost of $86.6 billion. <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>After the Bottom Up Review, completed by DOD in September 1993, the planned quantity of F-22s was reduced to 442 at an estimated cost of $71.6 billion</span></b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1991 : 648 F-22 at USD 86.6 Billion i.e. about USD 133 Million Each
1993 : 442 F-22 at USD 71.6 Billion i.e. about USD 162 Million Each
Now : About USD 340 Million Each
Have personally read the following news items in the US Media :
General Electric Boat Company â Manufacture of US Nuclear Submarines :
1. Cost of Nuclear Compatible Hand Battery Torch : USD 4,400. The same available in the store at USD 14
2. Cost of Deep Depth Compatible Toilet Seats : USD 4,000. The same available in the store at USD 10
<b>Long Live Private Enterprise</b>
Trust you are aware that the present F-16 Fighter Bombers are being given to the Pakistan Air Force to keep the Manufacturing Plant in Texas from Closing Down.
Cheers <!--emo&:beer--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='cheers.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Ravish+Feb 10 2007, 09:02 PM-->QUOTE(Ravish @ Feb 10 2007, 09:02 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->.....
The most important drawback has been the delay in development of the systems and in cost over runs. Both of these have ensured that we are heavily dependent on imports.
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Looking at the Vision and Mission statement of DRDO, here
http://www.drdo.org/mission.shtml
I do not see anywhere or infer (should not have to if the mission in clear), their mission is ensuring development and does not say anything about timely development timely (again this term being relative) or avoiding cost overruns. Either outsiders do not really understand what "mission statement & vision" are supposed to mean (and DRDO does) or having wrong expectations and false parameters for measuring success of DRDO.
What am I missing?
Ramji - be practical. In today's India the Government is under increasing pressure to increasingly use the Web. The DRDO due to compultions has been forced to put up some material. It is quite possibel the write up has been done through outsourcing. The information therein is for basic public consumption and nothing beyond that, so no need to waste your time on its containts.
The result of DRDO activities is visible through normal eyes and the print media, the continued high bill for import of arms and ammunitions is more than sufficient proof of DRDO's achievements.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->most important drawback has been the delay in development of the systems and in cost over runs. Both of these have ensured that we are heavily dependent on imports. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
major drawback and reasons behind -
Low salary
Nepotism
Biased promotion
Corruption in purchasing
In place of talent, quota is priority and promotions are based on quota.
No efforts to encourage staff for research
Funds for conference are limited to family members.
No avenue for professional enhancement.
DRDO still exist because it gives job to those who can't find job in private sector or abroad or to lazy to apply for job because of family reason or who prefer job security.
Frankly saying, that place sucks big time, ask me. <!--emo&  --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Ravish+Feb 11 2007, 04:06 PM-->QUOTE(Ravish @ Feb 11 2007, 04:06 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
The result of DRDO activities is visible <b>through normal eyes and the print media</b>, the continued high bill for import of arms and ammunitions is more than sufficient proof of DRDO's achievements.
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And that is practical in berating DRDO, how? <!--emo&:blink:--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<b>Report: India to test-fire new nuclear-capable missile</b>
http://in.news.yahoo.com/070214/210/6c48l.html
<b>Look after great son of India, Kalam tells Manekshaw's doctors</b><!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Coming out of the room, Kalam wrote in the hospital visitors book <b>"he (Manekshaw) is great son and friend of India"</b>. He advised doctors attending the 93-year-old Field Marshal to "look after him".
The Field Marshal, nicknamed 'Sam Bahadur' by the troops of the Gorkha Regiment, whose patron Colonel he remains to this day, has been ailing for some time at the Army Hospital in this picturesque hill town of Tamil Nadu.
Doctors, including some specialists from capital's Research and Refferal Hospital attending on the Field Marshal, said his condition was all right. <b>"The Marshal just suffers from old age complications. Otherswise he is fit."</b>
Manekshaw is known as liberator of Bangladesh, as it was under his command in 1971 the Indian Army vanquished the Pakistani Army in Bangladesh.
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Enjoy Holi video from border, they are good singers, hands down <!--emo& --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Mar 4 2007, 09:16 AM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Mar 4 2007, 09:16 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Enjoy Holi video from border, they are good singers, hands down <!--emo& --><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
[right][snapback]65232[/snapback][/right]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Awesome. Singing and dancing better than in moviesongs! Is there a way to download the clip (to save it)?
See also lovely people of Manipur celebrating by re-enacting Krishna and Gopis' fun:
http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/35080/manipu...ix-of-holi.html
Shortage of Naval ships- According to media reports the Indian Navy has undertaken a program to acquire 33 warships. However, there is problem in the Defence shipyards which are entrusted in building the majority of these ships. To maintain the current strength of 135 warships, the Navy is required to replace six ships every year. Due to the slow turnover of the Indian shipyards only two or three ships are getting added each year. This delay is causing cost escalation and also the equipment s are getting outdated within a very short span of the ships operational lifetime. While abroad, a shipyard takes five years to construct a frigate , the time taken in India is nine years.It is understood that at present one aircraft carrier is under construction at Kochi, three destroyers at MDL in Mumbai( delayed by two years),Three frigates being built in MDL Mumbai and four Corvette in GRSE Kolkata. If the current rate of shipbuilding continues, there may be a serious shortage in surface ships in the near future and this may force the country to import ships from abroad or to go in for second hand ships from abroad. Nareshji may like to give his expert views on this important issue.
<b>India successfully tests Agni-III missile</b>
http://in.news.yahoo.com/070412/43/6eg5l.html
No mention of pakistan
India test-fires nuclear-capable missile
By MUNEEZA NAQVI, Associated Press Writer 2 hours, 26 minutes ago
NEW DELHI - India test-fired a new missile capable of carrying nuclear warheads across much of Asia and the Middle East, a state government official said Thursday.
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An earlier test-firing of the Agni III missile had failed when it plunged into the Bay of Bengal short of its target in July last year. There was no immediate comment whether the current test was successful.
The missile was launched from Wheeler Island off the eastern state of Orissa, the state government official said on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media.
India's current crop of missiles has been largely intended to confront neighboring archrival Pakistan. The Agni III, in contrast, is India's longest-range missile, designed to reach 1,900 miles â putting China's major cities well into range, as well as targets deep in the Middle East.
It also is said to be capable of carrying up to a 300-kiloton nuclear warhead.
India's missile program, together with its nuclear program and drive for a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council, is part of its ongoing efforts to establish itself as a world power.
India's homegrown missile arsenal already includes the short-range Prithvi ballistic missile, the medium-range Akash, the anti-tank Nag and the supersonic Brahmos missile, developed jointly with Russia.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> a world power.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What power? when majority of population is seeking reservation and happy to be called backward class? I don't think these are sign of world power? SOme Indian states have 70 - 80 reservation, and according to recent trend it can easily cross 100%, if they can change rules of Mathematics based on reservation rules.
World power needs mindset, majority of Indians or Indian leadership lacks this basic mindset or pride or confidence. Indian mindset is to ape others, whether its culture or history. They have no pride in their own culture or civilzation. These are sign of extinct not world power.
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