Rama Setu -1

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 04-13-2007, 10:22 AM by Bodhi.)

And uploading two scanned pages of Sri Skanda Purana, from Bramhahhanda chapter which explains importance of Setu even after the work of Rama was accomplished. I dont have time to translate it right now. But later we do have plans to create a separate article on this on www.bridgeofram.com

<img src='http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/3693/2072074950100818794S600x600Q85.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

<img src='http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/5564/2254676710100818794S600x600Q85.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

Husky · (This post was last modified: 04-13-2007, 07:03 PM by Husky.)

Post 18:
QUOTEfacts, logic, all p-sec anti-Hindu concepts according to someNope. Facts and logic are anti-christian (and anti-islam), as has been repeated since early church fathers to this day. So too Reason (see Martin Luther).
Pseculars wouldn't know a fact if it charged at them like a bull.
Hindus and other sane people have no problem with facts or logic.
QUOTETHIS is what Hinduism has sunk to?Like I implied, the fever is in your mind. You're inverting what you see.

Ramar Sethu is a National Treasure, it is instinctively recognised as such by many coastal Tamil, Malayali and Sri Lankan Hindus, not to mention throughout the length and breadth of India. The government fails to recognise it at all, on purpose. But that doesn't mean it ceases to be deserving of this status.

Progress is all good and well, looking to the future is too. But 'civilised', 'progressive' people in other nations are willing to preserve their National Treasures and don't mind doing so if it means a bit more effort on their part. Although I didn't think the alternatives to the proposed canal configuration required (a great deal of) extra effort either.
'Civilised' people don't go about destroying their own civilisation. Indian psecs however, think that replacing Indian languages with English (as opposed to adding English to the existing set of languages we learn) is a sign of 'civilised progress'. In a similar manner, these types also think that Ramar Sethu (if they ever even know or accept or care that there's a Ramar Sethu) served its purpose long ago.

Ignoring the psec then, whose opinions one may safely ignore in all matters, most people know that National treasures are worth saving. Only Indians insist on committing suicide by sacrificing their own historic monuments. The Bridge is unique, it is sacred to Hindus, it is mentioned in several Dharmic scriptures, it is a sign of Hindu continuity from ancient times, it is an heirloom of all Hindus. It has special significance to Hindus as a people. Therefore it matters: its worth according to these factors makes it inestimable. What price do you put on self-confidence? And how much for national self-awareness, self-recognition, self-worth, pride, identity?

There are occasions when one can argue reasonably for progress, but there are also occasions when one can reasonably make arguments for preserving one's heritage (over and above insistence on the kind of blind progress that does not care what it is in its way that it mowed over). Ramar Sethu is an instance of the last.
The day may come when most Hindus finally think it's time to take a stand. But at that point I fear we could have alreay let so much slip past, that we have nothing to take a stand by.

Such a day may not be far off, as with each scheme to denude us of our identity, anti-Hindus such as those in our present government count on those who are proudly and blindly 'reasonable' to overlook the govt's real intentions. It never enters the heads of the 'reasonable, rational Indian' (though they are neither reasonable nor rational, it's self-flattery) that our government has no major legitimate motives - that it could actually be, and in fact is, mere petty, mental conquest they're after. Missionaries are neither reasonable nor subtle. They may cloak their intentions in sensible-sounding ideas like 'let's build a canal to facilitate a speedier route between Sri Lanka and India', 'schools to provide education', but they had the intention first, they then came up with the excuse.

If Ramar Sethu had been the only thing they were after, most would not have seen this event for what it is. However the matter's different: this is but the millionth thing they have been doing to undermine Hinduism in India.
- 'Those Hindu processions, they're loud and the people in it trample flowers - it's noisy and environmentally unfriendly' and so they get us to stop traditional processions and gatherings.
- The travesty of what they did to Kanchi Shankaracharya
- The careful misreporting (and neglecting to report) on important events: example, the misreporting on Jhabua nun case; neglecting to report on massive Hindu meets
- Oh, a million other things

One needs to be deaf, dumb and blind - or a mere psec, or an Indian used to deluding itself into thinking they're especially more rational than another - not to see the significance of the Sethu situation in the bigger picture of what it is the UPA government and their terrorist allies have long been trying to do to Hindu identity in India.

Whether the Ramar Sethu means something to you or not, you should recognise the situation for what it is and fight it on principle. But I think you, and those who think like you, might not see why. Not yet. Not until it is too late. Reminds me of the 'liberals' in the west, who are too sleepy to notice the oncoming tide of islam.

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 04-13-2007, 07:24 PM by Bodhi.)

Thanks Husky.

QUOTE(Husky @ Apr 13 2007, 12:56 AM)Although I didn't think the alternatives to the proposed canal configuration required (a great deal of) extra effort either.
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Quite to the opposite. This configuration which has been chosen costs a lot more in terms of both operating annual cost (>Rs 1000 Crore/yr) and initial cost(>Rs 24,000 Crore), plus :

- the added cost of ensuring the security to the passing ships since this configuration will make the shipping channel closer to the international waters and within striking influence of LTTE, as compared to the other alternatives which are mainly on the Indian shore.

- cost of lost livelihoods since the main water region which seafishermen and Shankha-collecors use, will no longer be available due to this configuraion. (before poster starts making noise on this one, I advise him/her to go through the NEERI report)

Thats the whole fun part! No one here is opposing the SSCP! We are supporting it. All we are opposing is this configuration. However 'progressives' make it sound as if the opposition is to the project itself.

Again the Neeri report which I mentioned, tries to highlight what could be the main 'cons' of or potential oppositions to the selected configuration. But not once does it recognize that dredging away part of a Heritage will be a 'con', nor does it recognize that Hindus will have problems with that. You really believe they were so ignorant and innocent, that they did not even "recognize" this fact in the assessment report? Are we completely blind to not be able to see their intention?

04-14-2007, 01:04 AM

I note that the project has been "around" for decades. The noise and sudden realization of the National Treasure are what are new. So, people who looked forward to the advances promised by the project, will indeed ask what is behind this sudden noise.

QUOTE
There stretches, famed for evermore,
The wondrous bridge from shore to shore.
The worlds, to life's remotest day.
Due reverence to the work shall pay,
Which holier for the laps of time
Shall give release from sin and crime.

And my question is: "What is the Due Reverence to an engineering marvel?"

Some here take the position that Due Reverence means freeze things in glass cases or behind walls, and walk around them seven times, and pray.

In the particular case, I have not seen a single initiative from those most devoted to this National Treasure, to actually PRESERVE or PROTECT or ENHANCE it.

Some have been pointing to the "NASA images" (though I would be very interested to see the originals at the NASA site..) as the "proof" of the existence of the Sethu, thus implying that this realization is something new. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The Survey documents for the SSC project cite surveys done even much earlier, showing that the sea is only 2 to 3 metres deep, over a width varying from zero to about 1.7 miles, for a few miles in the Palk strait. At low tide. Millions upon millions have worshipped at Rameshwaram, gone out to Dhanushkodi to look at the "white floating rocks", and gaze out along the sea-washed rocks, imagining what it must have been like when the place was hosting an army about the cross the sea.

The "Defenders of the National Treasures" were not interested then. The Sethu has been eroded and deteriorating for millennia. The landscape attached to the Sethu has changed dramatically over the centuries, with every cyclone, and the constant erosion and silt deposition.

In fact, if the research is properly done, it should show that the top so many feet are just silt from the paddy fields of Andhra, Orissa and Bengal and the Gangetic plains, washed into the Bay of Bengal.

The approaches, including that most holy of holy places, Rameswaram, are kept about as clean and neat as a pigsty, with not even the most basic sanitation, hardly any roads, and no opportunities for the local population to advance. This, they would have me believe, is their version of Worship to Shri Rama and the Vanara Sena.

This is what happens, apparently, when those who "really care" about our "National Heritage" are at work.

Oh, sure, the occasional tourist goes over there to enjoy tossing 1-paisa coins into murky pools to watch the "fun" of young human, Indian citizen kids diving to retrieve them, in order to collect enough to get some food.

And oh, yeah, they celebrate the "white beach sands" and want to protect the Whales out in the middle of the Palk Strait, while being utterly unconcerned about the kids and mothers begging on shore.

Sorry, I do not see this as being any way to show Due Reverence to my ancient traditions or National Treasures. I see the opposition as a cynical exercise of political opportunists, completely lacking in any good intentions.

Yes, I saw the demand to UNESCO to declare the region a World Heritage. Wonderful, Now we can all go home to feel good that we have solved THAT problem. Bring the UN to run the Palk Strait, and tell us what we can and cannot do there. The truly Hindu Solution.

Bodhi here now says that there was never any intent to oppose the project itself. This is a great development, and s(he) is probably right in cynically calculating that few will remember precisely what was being demanded just a few weeks ago.

But this is progress. I actually have no problem with the new-found acceptance by a certain Holy organization, of the option of dredging the Pamban channel to the required depth.

Simple reasoning about what the topography must have been, millenia ago, will tell you that the Rameshwaram Temple or Dhanushkodi are NOT where they were then. My guess is that Dhanushkodi, the legendary starting point of the Sethu, was miles away. The present location of Dhanushkodi is on a shifting sandbank, not any ancient rock. It is probably a creation in fairly recent times.

On the other hand, the satellite images show that the narrow land feature starts far to the west, and the Pamban is certainly a part of the overall "sethu". But since the British dredged it and built a bridge, there is absolutely no concern about "preserving" that part of the Sethu, since there is no political capital to be made out of it. This shows the hollowness of the whole campaign of opposition.

BUT.. I would have no problem if the SSC project, after due consideration, were to accept this route. It has many things attractive about it, not the least of which is that this part is completely within Indian territory. Trouble with this option, as I understand, is that it affects some "marine preserve" or other.

Note that the ppl who are so concerned about the "livelihood" of the fisherfolk on the coast, when there is a proposal to dredge the top 8 feet off, over a 300m-wide, few-mile-long swathe some 10 miles off shore, are completely unconcerned about the huge disruption of dredging a sea canal through the Pamban area.

What happened to the pollution due to large ships going through? What about the shells? The fish farms? The beaches?

Again, this shows that the initial opposition to the project was not based on any real considerations other than shortsighted political propaganda.

Now I am told that the canal project itself would not have been taken as a slight, it's just that it comes on top of the atrocities like "what was done to the Sankaracharya", the evangelist campaigns, the placing of EVR statues in front of temples, the Vatican-KGB-Sweden-CIA-Bush-Cheney-Musharraf Conspiracy, yada yada yada. A whole laundry list of oolitical grievances.

Why are those grounds for putting sand in the mouths of the poor children of Rameshwaram?

Why is "Bodhi" so worried when the facts, the realities, of Rameshwaram are posted on the propaganda BLOG, that they had to be censored out?

Why is "Husky" pointing to the "fever in your brain" instead of arguing on facts and reason?

What happened to the "SSC canal opening should be pointed to the WEST, let me explain why" 'science' that was part of the initial campaign?

Why is it impossible to "show due reverence" to the Sethu if ships pass OUT OF SIGHT of Dhanushkodi, having CLEARED away the sand that has accumulated on top of the ancient, sunken Sethu 10 miles off shore?

What effort is being made to recover the sunken temples off Mahabalipuram that were exposed when the sea receded during/ just before the tsunami? No interest in that any more because there is no political mileage there? UNESCO not agreeing to take that over?

The sewage from Chennai, all gazillion tons of it, and the infamous Stinko Canals of Chennai, pour out into the sea and go right over these temples. Is THAT not "hurting the sentiments" of these dedicated Hindus? Why not? Or is that duly Holy sewage, since it comes from the Holy shores?

Try not to mix political propaganda into "religion" and "science", please.

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 04-14-2007, 07:18 PM by Bodhi.)

First of all, welcome to the newest member of the Forum, Neelan.

Some questions are very good, innocent ones, some born out of ignorance - both of which are most welcome, and I shall attempt to answer. Some others are born out of adamance, which I shall just highlight and leave unanswered. Lastly, some are purely coming from unwillingness to do any reasearch but readiness to carry on analysis.

Q1

Quote:I note that the project has been "around" for decades. The noise and sudden realization of the National Treasure are what are new. So, people who looked forward to the advances promised by the project, will indeed ask what is behind this sudden noise.

Catagory2 question, born out of ignorance.

As I said in my earlier post, Hindus groups are NOT opposing the project itself. They are opposing THIS configuration of the project, which attempts to damage the Setu.

Project has been around, and all the configurations that had been proposed so far were doing no harm to the Setu, that is why Hindu groups were not opposed to the project. Present one, is the only one, proposed for the first time, that attempts a damage to the Setu.

I shall illustrate it using the below cartograph, which shows all the 5 configurations and the present one:

<img src='http://iri.columbia.edu/~mahaweli/climate.lk_mirror/sethu/img/002.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

The shape which looks like a bone is the Rameshwaram island. Setu starts from a point called Dhanushkoti which can be seen on the estern-most point on the island. Setu starts from here. Notice, that all the 5 earlier propsals which have been around since 1961, have all been to the WEST of Dhanushkoti, avoiding any harm to the Setu.

The 6th one - the present one - is the only one, which has been dragged drastically to the east, like an elastic, so as to target the center point of the Setu.

This should answer the question, why no Hindu objected to the PROJECT so far, and why suddenly the opposition. (Short answer: Because there was no damage to the Setu So far, in any of the earlier proposals!)

Q2

Quote:And my question is: "What is the Due Reverence to an engineering marvel?" Some here take the position that Due Reverence means freeze things in glass cases or behind walls, and walk around them seven times, and pray.

This is Category 3 question. Bordering on nonsensical and idioticity.

Answer: Righto! So what is the problem if someone has been "walking around them seven times, and pray". Whats wrong with that? Do you know how close you stand to the Wahabi government led by Saud family in Arabia, that destroyed house of Prophet Mohammed, because they did not want people to do exactly what is bothering you. So whats YOUR problem if someone wants to worship Setu?

Q3

Quote:In the particular case, I have not seen a single initiative from those most devoted to this National Treasure, to actually PRESERVE or PROTECT or ENHANCE it.

Category 3, and I dont want to spend time on this, so I will take what you say for a fact. At best this would show 'lack of sincerity' or 'lack of resources' of those who respect it. Which is no reason for Setu to NOT be considered a treasure. Fault of 'some' people, not of Setu. What a logic that something which is not Preserved/Protected/Enhanced deserves to be destroyed!!!

Q4

Quote:Some have been pointing to the "NASA images" (though I would be very interested to see the originals at the NASA site..) as the "proof" of the existence of the Sethu, thus implying that this realization is something new. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Category 3
If you are that interested you should go to NASA website. It is not difficult at all. Do some research. If you dont find, I will send you the link, but first do your own research. Now, onus of proof lies with the proposal-maker. Assertion that this structure is NOT "setu" has been made by SSCP configuration (by ignoring and negating the common belief). So the onus of doing the reaserch, conducting marine-archeology, and multi-disciplinary project lies with the government. Until they do this, how can they take a stand that "there is no setu"?

But this is exactly what they are doing. See the answer to Rajya Sabha Question by Ms Angelica Soni :

from post 14:

Quote:Ambika Soni's statement, delivered in Rajya Sabha, on 6-March-2007:

"There are no archaeological studies revealing the existence of a Ram Sethu Bridge between India and Sri Lanka. A NASA satellite picture shows the existence of a stretch of land bridge in the Palk Strait between India and Sri Lanka. As to declaring and preserving the said bridge as an ancient monument of National and Historical importance, such question does not arise."

So NASA or no-NASA, there is no ASI research undertaken. Without doing archelogical research about such a unique subject, how can she even conclude that "there is no proof" and "no question of heritage"?

But like you, she seems to be on the other side of the logic.

5

Quote:In fact, if the research is properly done, it should show that the top so many feet are just silt from the paddy fields of Andhra, Orissa and Bengal and the Gangetic plains, washed into the Bay of Bengal.

There you are. "If Research is done" -> "it should show". Research follows the already drwan conclusion. Cart before the horse. So much for the intelligent "scientist" mind we have in dialogue here! Perfectly in tally with Ms Angelika Soni's answer.

6

Quote:The Sethu has been eroded and deteriorating for millennia. The landscape attached to the Sethu has changed dramatically over the centuries, with every cyclone, and the constant erosion and silt deposition.

How do you know about "eroded and deteriorated for Millenia"? How do you know about millenia? Site some proof. Oops! Sorry I forgot that you are one of the "Science" folks, speculation is enough.

In fact within the documented history, Setu has not eroded much at all, in the last 1500 years of recorded descriptions of Setu. Cyclones have been destroying/eroding/modifying coral reefs in the area, but not Setu. Setu is largely intact as was seen by Huen Tsang long time back when he traveled from India to Sri Lanka. The latest research done by Bharatidasan University shows that the interesting curvature to Setu is "probably" because of the alternative clockwise and counter-clock wise currents over thousands of years, but no structural damage.

7

Quote:most holy of holy places, Rameswaram, are kept about as clean and neat as a pigsty, with not even the most basic sanitation, hardly any roads, and no opportunities for the local population to advance. This, they would have me believe, is their version of Worship to Shri Rama and the Vanara Sena.

Again, I will not argue on the accuracy of the fact, but only on the inference drawn from the fact. So if Rameshwaram (temples or town itself?) is 'dirty', how did it become an argument against Setu and for destroying Setu?

Maybe it will show that those who are opposing the Setu destruction, should improve the Holy teerth of Rameshwar. Agreed. But does it mean, this takes away their argument for the protection of Setu?

Exactly same argument which British used to give. 'Look at your country! It is not even one nation! You dirty dogs dying of Hunger and ready to kill each other. You deserve colonization'.

8

Quote:tossing 1-paisa coins...young human...enough to get some food... utterly unconcerned about the kids and mothers begging on shore.

Same thing as earlier point. Given, Rameshwaram is full of poverty, so are several places in Tamil Nadu and in India. What has that got to do with THIS CONFIGURATION of the project? How does THIS CONFIGURATION ONLY help in poverty alleviation?

9

Quote:Bodhi here now says that there was never any intent to oppose the project itself. This is a great development, and s(he) is probably right in cynically calculating that few will remember precisely what was being demanded just a few weeks ago.

Please quote ONCE when Hindu groups like RSS were demanding anything other than stopping the destruction of Setu, and changing the configuration, with multi-disciplinary considerations.

10

Quote:Simple reasoning about what the topography must have been, millenia ago, will tell you that the Rameshwaram Temple or Dhanushkodi are NOT where they were then. My guess is that Dhanushkodi, the legendary starting point of the Sethu, was miles away. The present location of Dhanushkodi is on a shifting sandbank, not any ancient rock. It is probably a creation in fairly recent times.

On the other hand, the satellite images show that the narrow land feature starts far to the west, and the Pamban is certainly a part of the overall "sethu". But since the British dredged it and built a bridge, there is absolutely no concern about "preserving" that part of the Sethu, since there is no political capital to be made out of it. This shows the hollowness of the whole campaign of opposition.

I thought you just said you had not seen NASA images on NASA website. Which satellite images you are talking about now?

But, let me get your point, which is this: "Setu" is already destroyed at one place - pamban - so what the heck, why oppose another dig? Right?

First of all, this gives away your level of knowledge, research work, and (lack of) willingness to learn, while readiness of doing cheap speculations. You are not ready to learn this simple fact of geography and history that Pamban was not even a port a few hundred year back. Pamban was well inside the land, and Rameshwaram itself was not an island until 500 years ago. Dhanushkoti, eastern point of Rameshwar, is where Setu starts.

You, who are so logical, owe this answer. If Setu started from Pamban as you say, then Hindus must have built the temple in Pamban, and not in Rameshwaram. Why are the ancient temples that celebrate the location where Rama worshipped Shiva before Setu bandhan, and again Rama-Sita worshipped after victorious - these must be on Pamban, then. The latest renovated temple shrine of Rameshwaram dham is "at least" as old as 600 years, when records of its renovation exist. If, as you say, Setu goes all the way upto Pamban, then why was this temple not erected at Pamban, instead of Dhanushkoti - the eastern point of Rameshwaram?

Another important shrine of Rameshwar is Gandhamadana shrine at a peak towards the northern-eastern point. Again, "at least" a few hundereds year old shrine, dedicated as the place where Rama suprevised the Setu construction. Belief aside, why did some one erect a temple here at Rameshwaram, why not at Pamban itself?

Answer to these questions is very simple. Setu starts at Rameshwar, not Pamban.

1> Here is the map drawn by Rannel in 1804, where 'Adam's Bridge' name first occured:
<img src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_Cvup3_AVyF0/RgyZp5aXfoI/AAAAAAAAAAs/6N4J9NzWY80/s1600-h/Rennel.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
In this he clearly shows Adams bridge from 'Ramen' to 'Mannar' (Ramen = Rameshwar)

- Rameshwaram was NOT an island at the time of Chola kings, as is recorded in Chola's invasions of Lanka.

- It was not even an island during Khilji's time, when Malik Kafuur marched up to Rameshwar without difficulty.

- Dutch record mention that Pamban became a port and Rameshwaram an "island" in the year 1482, during the reign of Achudappa Nayakam king of Madurai. Very frequent cyclones cut off Rameshwaram further, and during the reign of the next king Vishvarada Nayakam, cyclones had created a very large gap, but still, one could walk from Pamban to Rameshwaram. When Dutch arrived, they built a fort, and enlarged this gap further, and which was again enlarged finally in 1830 by British.

11

Quote:ppl who are so concerned about the "livelihood" of the fisherfolk on the coast, when there is a proposal to dredge the top 8 feet off, over a 300m-wide, few-mile-long swathe some 10 miles off shore, are completely unconcerned about the huge disruption of dredging a sea canal through the Pamban area.

Ignorance is truely a bliss?

Remember the news I posted in one of the posts on this thread, which reported the news of 4 fishermen having been killed, shot down by Lankan Navy?

Sea-Fishing happens NOT in the waters between Pamban and Rameshwar, but in the Setu Samudram waters that extends upto international waters. That is where they catch most fish and Shankhakars get Shankhas. So, if you build a channel between Pamban and Rameshwar (instead of the present config), fishermen of Rameshwar and surrounding fishing village isles will still have unrestricted access to their fishing waters - which is NOT between Pamban and Rameshwar, but towards the international side.

Again, it is for "THIS CONFIG ONLY" people to show how this config is going to pull the poor fishermen out of their poverty as Sonia Ji is crying in tears, or the greatest economist India ever produced ManMohan Singhji is saying.

Got it! Nandigram. SEZ.

12

Quote:Why is "Bodhi" so worried when the facts, the realities, of Rameshwaram are posted on the propaganda BLOG, that they had to be censored out?
...
...
The sewage from Chennai, all gazillion tons of it, and the infamous Stinko Canals of Chennai, pour out into the sea and go right over these temples. Is THAT not "hurting the sentiments". Why is "Husky" pointing to the "fever in your brain"

So that gives you away. Wherever you go, in whichever shape, form or name, you carry your bag of what you like most with you, and its stink. The stink is the reason, I had to hesitatingly delete comments of "Neelan"/"bud"/Dr. Narayanan Ji. A decent debate is welcome, but not the stink which comes with the language that unavoidably contains at least one reference to poo/latrine/sewer and other synonyms. Please dont bring that there, because garbade will be immediately cleaned. But any decent debate, always welcome.

Best was this:

Quote:Try not to mix political propaganda into "religion" and "science", please.

Neelan has shown ample knowledge of both.

Moderator Request! Friends, I dont want this thread to go waste through the rout of the earlier ones. Will you kindly moderate this one more carefully and closely?

Husky · (This post was last modified: 04-14-2007, 08:28 AM by Husky.)

Post 23 ('Neelan'):
QUOTETry not to mix political propaganda into "religion" and "science", please.Try not confuse christoislamism with other ancient ways of life, okay?
I don't follow christianity or islam, which are religions that don't mix with science by definition. It is the west where science and religion needed to be kept separate to progress (and by similarity of ideology, islamic countries). On the other hand, in Hinduism, our ancient scientists were Hindus. As was the case also in other nations like Ancient Rome and Greece, China, Persia, where the local religionists were the scientists.
As you might or might not know, it's christoislam that's the aberration and to which all these modern rules apply: scientists christoislamic nations had were specifically not christian or islamic, as historians have repeatedly pointed out. (Please don't say Newton - he was a Catharan heretic of Jewish ancestry.)

So, stop using western 'secular' arguments like 'separation-of-church-and-state' and 'shouldn't-mix-religion-and-science' in Hinduism. And likewise, stop presenting 'rationality, logic and reason' as if they were a separate stream of thought from Hinduism. Just for you're information, they're not, they're intrinsic to all schools of Dharmic thought.
We're not western seculars, and Dharmic traditions have no trouble with science or governance. I know this is hard to understand for people who are out of sync with Dharmic traditions and have only learnt western history and the western outlook and think the whole world is the same and underwent the same problems in its history.
But in summary: the world is not the same, the history and troubles faced by Europe under christianity (and in the ME by islam) are not the history and troubles faced by us non-christoislamics. Stop projecting western-christian patterns onto non-christian countries.

QUOTEmost holy of holy places, Rameswaram, are kept about as clean and neat as a pigsty, with not even the most basic sanitation, hardly any roads, and no opportunities for the local population to advance. This, they would have me believe, is their version of Worship to Shri Rama and the Vanara Sena.Every single South Indian temple I know is surrounded by huts - what western people (and the Indians parroting them) call 'slums'. Many poorer people live in the vicinity of temples. What is your point? You might find this a pigsty, but I don't see it as such. I see how they make a living by selling flowers for the puja in the temple or selling pictures of the Gods, and with their trade take care of their families. Many temples I know also ensure they never go hungry, by offering free food to those that need it, so that's one worry solved right there. The Indian temples themselves are clean, they are kept clean. The temples never had a problem working with and being faced with poor people all day. It is the reality of much of India. As much as you'd like to imagine away poor Indians into some dark corner to remove your unease at the sight of them, Hindu temples don't suffer from the same views as you.
Much of India is still poor - so stop asking why they can't 'Worship Shri Rama and the Vanara Sena' in the way rich folks do who can afford to build palatial buildings here and there and hire people to clean up after them.

And another thing. You can't be ignorant of the fact that the psecular government takes most of the money the Indian temples raise and gives it to churches and for hajj subsidy, so there's very little left for maintenance of the temples themselves and the roads leading up to them. Even then, like in AP, the christo Chief Minister gets his men to swindle the remaining temple money and ensure complete decay of temples, just like the Portuguese and British did before him.
Why castigate Hindu temples and Hindus for the poor upkeep of their temples, when Hindus happily donate whatever they can spare to their local temple, thinking all of it goes toward its maintenance and toward serving those in need? Most Hindus still don't know the christo-govt is draining/stealing money from their temples and putting it in the overflowing coffers of the church and funding j-hadis. Temples are making every rupee stretch in trying to do all they need to and still buy, prepare and give free food. It's not like we're churches, who get money from the west and still get stolen money from temples, but do nothing for the poor unless they can advertise it to the world.

Also, if you can't deal with poor people, just stay away from S Indian temples altogether or build your own temple in the US or UK or wherever it is you live. Because otherwise, who knows, you might just bump into a 'poor Hindoo' (gasp) and 'catch poverty' or something from them if you visit a S Indian temple! Leave that to us folks as don't mind, then, 'kay? Grief.

QUOTEThe "Defenders of the National Treasures" were not interested then.Huhh? You're joking, right?
Don't you know that it's because by far the most of us were not aware of the designs on the RamarSethu? Those Hindus that have become aware now do care about this issue. Thus far, we thought it was safe, and that it would always be there. It's not disinterest, as you wrongly put it, but taking for granted that no one would ever be insane enough to try anything against it.

QUOTEThe Sethu has been eroded and deteriorating for millennia. The landscape attached to the Sethu has changed dramatically over the centuries, with every cyclone, and the constant erosion and silt deposition.See Bodhi's post above. But also another point. Just because humans have been killed by natural disasters (floods, cyclones, tornadoes, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, heat waves....) does not make it okay for other humans to go around killing people. Likewise, Nature is allowed to have an effect on the Sethu, but willfull and calculated human damage is what we oppose. Is it so hard to understand? Why make such trivial and irrelevant arguments?

04-15-2007, 10:59 AM

04-15-2007, 09:47 PM

QUOTERamar Sethu: Swamy Joins Protest

Madurai, April 15: Janata Party president Subramanian Swamy today claimed to have sent fresh evidence on Ramar Sethu (Adams Bridge) to President A P J Abdul Kalam, revealing that it was not a natural geological formation, but a construction for which shoal stones were placed to create the causeway.

Speaking to reporters here, he said the Department of Earth Sciences' report on the geological and geophysical survey of Ramar Sethu revealed that coral formations hardly occur one to 2.5 metres in length and on loose marine sand.

Swamy, quoting from the report, said most of these coral rock pieces seemed to be rounded pebbles of corals. This appears to show that these coral rock pieces and pebbles have been transported and placed in these areas.

"Since the calcareous sandstones and coral are less dense than normal hard rock and quite compact, these were probably used by the ancients to form a connecting link to Sri Lanka on the higher elevations of the Adams bridge ridge and this analogous to modern day causeway."

The bridge finds mention in the manual of the Madras Presidency administration, wherein it is stated that 'Adams bridge/Ramar Sethu linked Ceylon with India until 1480 when a storm broke out, causing minor breach through rocks.'

Swamy said no party was opposed to the building of the Sethu Samudram Canal Project, but the alignment had to be changed.

He alleged that the present alignment has been chosen under international and US pressure. "Palk Straits is fully in Indian and Sri Lankan territorial waters. By digging the SSCP, it will become international waters. We cannot claim exclusive rights and any vessels can come."

He said though he wanted to share the evidence with the Tamil Nadu Chief Minister, he was declined the appointment. "There is no doubt that it is a heritage and a historic site and it should be protected as a national monument."

Swamy said computer simulation had shown that some parts of Tamil Nadu and Kerala had been protected by the Ramar Sethu barrier when the tsunami struck the Tamil Nadu coast in December 2004. "A post-tsunami study should also be carried out on the advantages of Ramar Sethu and it should not be disturbed," he added.

He charged Chief Minister M Karunanidhi with adopting double standards so far as beliefs are concerned. When so much of money was spent to develop Poompuhar Kottam, (place near Karaikal where Kannagi, the goddess of chastity, lived) into a tourist spot, was it also not the government's duty to protect Ramar Sethu, which finds mention in ancient Tamil literature, he asked.

He said he would take part in the VHP demonstration at Rameswaram on April 18 to protest against the move to 'damage' the Ramar Sethu bridge. (Agencies)

Published: Sunday, April 15, 2007

04-16-2007, 02:16 AM

QUOTESethu channel destroying Rama Setu hostile to the nation and its swaraj: Justice VR Krishna Iyer
Krishna Iyer writes to Manmohan
'Sethu project is anti-India'
NT Bureau
Chennai, Apr 15, 2007: (News Today)
Â Â Â Â Adding momentum to the ever-increasing protest against the destruction of Ramar Palam (Adam's bridge) in view of the proposed Sethusamudram shipping project, former Supreme Court Judge R Krishna Iyer, a respected name in opinion-making circles, today, in a strongly-worded letter, sought the intervention of Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh in the matter.

Â Â Â Â Krishna Iyer, a liberal social thinker, has opined that the Sethusamudram project would be detrimental to India's territorial interests. 'Our nation will be weaker and may suffer new dangers with American presence in the Sethusamudram waters by doing what for centuries has never been considered necessary or feasible or in any manner advantageous to us, the people of India,' he said in his letter to the Prime Minister.

Â Â Â Â The former Supreme Court Judge's letter was accompanied by a detailed 'expert research paper,' which explained on what grounds the project would be detrimental to India's interests.

Â Â Â Â 'If the enclosed paper states the facts with scientific objectivity and national anxiety, my appeal to you is to stop building any bridge or other construction, an action hostile to the nation and its swaraj,' Krishna Iyer said and added: 'I beseech you to reconsider the stand taken if any already on this point. I hope you will give great thought as the Executive Head of India to the grave issue implied in the enclosed paper and with which the nation shall defend its survival.'

Â Â Â Â Meanwhile, in a related development, Janata Party president Subrmanian Swamy has hit out at Tamilnadu Chief Minister M Karunanidhi for his bitter anti-Hindu utterings on the Ramar Sethu issue.

Â Â Â Â Swamy had a couple of days back sought an appointment with Karunanidhi for apprising him about certain facts on the whole issue.

Â Â Â Â The Chief Minister, in a quick rebuff, refused to meet him for a 'non-existent' Ramar bridge.

Â Â Â Â To term Adam's bridge, whose existence has been confirmed by no less than NASA's precision images, as a figment of imagination reflects a mind that is bitterly anti-Hindu, Swamy said.
http://newstodaynet.com/15apr/ld1.htm

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 04-16-2007, 07:20 AM by Bodhi.)

QUOTESethusamudhram alignment suggested by NDA govt: BaaluÂ 

Ramanathapuram (TN), April 15: Charging that BJP was politicising Ramar Sethu issue âto mobilise the Hindu votes in Uttar Pradesh on the eve of the electionsâ, Union Minister for Shipping, Road Transport and Highways, T R Baalu said the present alignment was suggested by the NDA government.

The minister, who inspected the dredging work for the Sethusamudhram Channel Project (SSCP), talking to reporters, ruled out the possibility of changing the alignment and said the Centre was confident that the SSCP would be completed before 2008.

He said âonce the Uttar Pradesh election was over, the BJP would remain silent about Ramar Sethu.â

He said âit was V P Goel, the Shipping Minister during the NDA period, who suggested the present alignment after analysing the pros and cons of various alignments.â

`The then Union Minister for Minerals and Environment and Mines, Uma Bharati, also directed for a detailed test of the soil by drilling up to 700 ft in the Adam`s Bridge area. Then it was said that there was no chance for change in the environment of sea-bed, soil and sea itself`, Baalu said.

The minister assured that the Centre would not do anything that would hurt the sentiments of the Hindus. (What is "Hindu Sentiment"?Â Like by installing Periyar statue in front of the temple of Hindus that he hated and abused? By arresting Shankaracharya on Diwali day, on charges for which chargesheet is yet to arrive?Â Or his parent party burning copies of Gita and Ramayana? Or by arresting Yogi Adityanath? Or by dropping Holi and Janmashtami from holiday list?Â Which exactly are those Hindu Sentiments they would not hurt?)

Tests were being carried out in 81 places where bores were still being drilled for tests. âWe have also proved scientifically, that Ramar bridge did not exist.â he said. Â (How? Any Ideas?)

He said dredging work was progressing satisfactorily and so far 13.11 million cubic metres had been excavated. "We are confident that by November 2008, ship will sail through the Palk Strait."

He said the plan to reclaim Dhanushkodi had been dropped for now.

http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articles.asp?...=365994&sid=REG


However I would not be surprised if his charges about BJP or NDA morons are true. Let us try to find out the truth. Also hopefully BJP will respond to his charges. But in any case, that does not take away any of the points in opposition to this configuration, whichever villain proposed it, from whichever political party.

04-17-2007, 05:50 AM

QUOTEBy Sri Ram's grace,Â we are working towards a focused website/blog to educate Hindus about Rama Setu issue. Now that Ramasetu blog is somewhat in place, we are trying to spead the word.

In this regard, may we request you to:

1. Please have a link in "Sign These Petitions area" pointing to the online petition
http://www.petitiononline.com/ramsetu/petition.html, and to http://www.bridgeofram.com ?

2. Please request forum members to sign and let others know to sign too?

.

04-17-2007, 07:32 AM

Another version of the Minister's statements:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/apr/16sethu.htm

QUOTEBJP's claims on Ram Sethu lack scientific proof: Baalu

April 16, 2007 14:02 IST

Puncturing the Bharatiya Janata Party's claims over the Adam's Bridge in the Palk Bay being the mythical Ram Sethu, Union Shipping and Road Transport Minister T R Baalu said the hypothesis lacked scientific proof and ruled out the possibility of changing the present alignment for the Sethu Samudram Shipping Channel Project.

After inspecting the ongoing dredging works at the Adam's Bridge area on Sunday, he told newspersons that studies carried out so far had not revealed the existence of a man made structure in the area.

A premier institute had made 91 boreholes in and around the site to ascertain the truth and the soil samples kept at the Sethu Project Office could be verified.

According to him not even a single piece of evidence was available to prove the existence of a man-made structure at Adam's Bridge, the chain of sandy islets, some of which frequently get submerged due to tidal waves, connecting Dhanushkodi and Talaimannar in the northern Jaffna Peninsula.

Reacting to the BJP's campaign, pressing for a change in the alignment to protect the Rama Sethu, he said the issue was being raised with an eye on the Assembly elections in Uttar Pradesh.

The present alignment was cleared when the BJP-led NDA was in power. Turning the tables on the BJP, he said it was the then Shipping Minister V P Goel who had accepted the 2002 report prepared by NEERI.

Further, Ms Uma Bharti held the Mines portfolio when the Geological Survey of India conducted a detailed survey of the area and concluded that the structure was a natural one.

To a query about the NASA's satellite images, which were being used prove the claim on Ram Sethu, the minister said the US Space Agency had not responded to the letters pertaining to the matter.

Baalu denied there was a delay in carrying out the dredging programme and said the dredger of the DCI had resumed work after repairs to an instrument.

In order to expedite the pace of the work, four more dredgers have been pressed into service and a few more would be deployed shortly, he added.

Dredging is expected to be completed by 2008 and the project would provide a navigable route, connecting the East and West coasts of the country besides throwing open the Tuticorin Port as a major hub on the maritime map.

UNI

The more things change, the more they remain the same.

IMO, the legend is that the Sethu was built of natural materials, of course (they didn't pour concrete or lay Bailey Bridges..) so there is really no test to verify these claims. The fact that there is an extremely shallow, and very narrow, long causeway is well-known and well-established.

But the trouble with turning the campaign into a political circus is exactly seen above. Now the Moral High Ground (MOHAWG) of "science" is seized by the anti-Hindus, and the Hindus are again isolated as a bunch of yapping savages.

This is why the case should be carefully studied and the campaign should not resort to such easily-blown-up propaganda.

QUOTE If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said yesterday

But then again, from the Hindu Narrative pov (copyright Shiv):
QUOTE Even if you put it in a straight pipe for 12 years, a dog's tail is still crooked

Sad. Now we will hear the excuse that this is all because the "BJP" is full of fools etc. Sorry, guys, if N-20 of the Hindu netaship, where N>>2000, are all stupid morons, then it is fair to conclude that the entire Hindu Netaship is overwhelmingly morons.

04-17-2007, 10:49 AM

Ah! Thank you [EDITED]

A very welcome removal of mask from "Due Reverence to an engineering marvel?" (post 23) to : "IMO... legend of... Sethu was built of natural materials... there is really no test to verify these claims" and "Hindus are again isolated as a bunch of yapping savages". (post 31)

Thank you, because it is always fairly easier to respond to those who declare Hindus savages, as compared to those who sound like genuine Hindus themselves.

As to the chest-thumping of your 'The Minister', about the "boreholes" he is talking about.

The "prestigious institute" he is talking about is NIOT. Let me quote from the NIOT report itself.

QUOTENational Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT), Chennai carried out 44
vibro-coring operations along the Channel alignment.

Results of the vibro-coring operation:

1. Sector AB (Length 17.3 km. Volume of material to be dredged 3,
76, 11,940 m3): Four Vibro-cores. Average water depth 6.5 to 9.1 m.
AB1 & AB3 encountered hard strata at depth: "Would require higher dredging operation including probably hard formation"Â (AB1 to AB3 is the Setu area.Â See map at the bottom of my post)

2. Sector BC (Length 13.38 km. Volume of material to be dredged 58,
87,713 m3) : Six vibro-cores. Average water depth 8-12 m.
Encountered mostly sandy strata. How ever BC6 to BC3 met with
calcareous rock at depth.

3. Sector CD (Length 37.44 km. Volume of material to be dredged 0
m3) :Eight vibro-cores. Average water depth 12.7 to 13.5 m
Strata consist of clay.

4. Sector DE (Length 40.48 km. Volume of material to be dredged 0
m3) :Eleven vibro- cores. Average water depth 12.5 to 13.5 m.
Rock at bottom

5. Sector EE4 (Length 54.4 km.) Volume of material to be dredged 1,
02, 62,259 m3): Thirteen vibro-cores. Average water depth 7.0 to 12 m.


See the image I am posting in the end, and notice if you can, that the AB1 - AB3 corresponds to the the base of the Setu. The material composition as has been recorded above, shows it to be a unique geo-formation, entirely distinguishable from its surroundings through the miles aparts.

"Hard Strata" refers to a layer upon layer of rock formation. More details about it further below. So what is the explanation of the formation of a completely heterogenous rock foundatin, different from its surroundings, just for a stretch of the length? Leave aside Ramayana for a while, and what material was used according to the "legend" in your words. What is the geological explanation that Baalu's "scientists" have given to this material phenomenon?

Another portion from the same report:

QUOTEFour on shore holes and six off shore holes have been drilled. The on
shore holes in the Adam's bridge area have been located on either side
of the proposed alignment and their data can be extrapolated for the
conditions that will be encountered along the alignment. The six off
shore holes have been drilled along the alignment.

On shore bore holes:
In B.H. No.1 drilled to a depth of 21 m, from 7.5 m to 10.5 m silty clay with pieces of calcareous sand stone, 10.5 m to 12.0 m crushed pieces
of rock and calcareous sand stone, 13.5 m to 15.0 m fine sand with
coral bed, and from 15.0 m to 16.5 m silty sand with rock has been
encountered. The N values between 4.5 m to 6.0 m is 41,6.0m to 7.5
m is 51,10.5m to 12.0 m is 50,13.5 m to 15.0 m is 86,15.0 m to 16.5
m is 86,16.5 m to 18.0 m is 100 and 19.5 m to 21.0 m is 40 have been recorded.


Alright.Â What explains the silty sand and rock, at the depth of 15 meters onwards.Â Also what about after the depth of 16.5 meters?Â Wasn't the hole 21 m deep?

QUOTEDetailed log of the off shore holes are not available. From a summary of the bore hole data, it could be seen that all the holes have
encountered rock at various depths and have high N value at places.


Oh! So detailed logs of these off shore holes are NOT available. Why not? What happened to them? But anyways it does say that much about Rocks, which its neighbourhood does not have.

Now, our talented, scientific, non-savage commentator still owes us savages the plain answers to this basic question: "Why ONLY this configuration, why not the other alternatives, which dont have Setu on the path?

<img src='http://www.sethusamudram.gov.in/images/Index/Photo1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

narayanan · (This post was last modified: 04-17-2007, 07:32 PM by narayanan.)

The obviously bogus-named postor "BODHI" who would be better described as "BUDDHOO" writes:

QUOTEAh! Thank you Neelan/bud/Dr Narayanan Ji. 

This is typical of idiots. They cannot argue and win on logic or facts, so they lie, claim "science" as they lie, and when they are debunked, they pout off. Then they return, with an obviously bogus name like "BODHI", but they feel compelled, because they are idiots, to try and guess the real names of all the postors who don't agree with their lies and nonsense. The elementary decency of respecting the privacy of postors on internet fora are no consideration at all for them.

And in the process, they make giant leaps like adding 1 and 1 and getting 111, and fall into the poo in making such leaps.

The bozo "GeorgeJi" tried this stunt against me once too many times on the BRF. After trying all peaceful means etc., over the years, I just did what I should have done to begin with, and he got himself banned within 3 more posts. Easier than taking candy from a baby, which, as I have previously pointed out, is incredibly difficult. Easier than kicking an Energizer Bunny around in a discussion, actually.

Now that you have shown everyone what a coward and obnoxious jerk you are, "BODHI", we can discuss yourself, your other actions, your lineage, sexual preferences, and all such things freely. You don't want that? Delete your post and apologize for your conduct, and swear to respect the privacy of postors in future.

Whoever I may be, I am not going to help you guess by agreeing or disagreeing with your wild guesses. However, I can assure you of one thing:

You are an idiot and a jerk.

Neelan is, as I understand, a Vanaram, and extremely well-behaved. Not like me at all. I will let him/her continue to blast your nonsense, not disrupted by your antics, and just return to laughing at your stupidity as s(he) proceeds to expose your hollowness. Good to see that you have been thoroughly debunked and discredited by even the silly TN Mininster.

What next? An intellectual debate with Pakis? Oh! And by the way, please drop the "ji". It is completely superfluous. Your insincerity is clearly evident, without that, from the rest of your actions in trying to violate postors' privacy in lieu of intelligent debate.

04-17-2007, 07:28 PM

Interesting tactic by postor "Bodhi" and interesting response. <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' />

Dear "Bodhi":

So now you point out that in the Sethu area (sector AB) the drilling encountered HARD ROCK at a shallow depth.

Not rubble. Not fossilized trees. Not pebbles delivered by squirrels. And not just boulders tossed in by my very muscular namesake and his cohorts. HARD ROCK.

HARD ROCK is a "natural formation", not a "man-made formation". There is no mention in the Ramayana of the Sethu being fused into one solid 100-yojana-long, 20-yojana-wide (by the way, what is the official length of a Yojana in ancient engineering terms, pls?)
shaft of solid rock. By what the Ramayana says, the Sethu was built by dumping everything that the army and locals could carry, into the sea.

So now you obviously have a problem, Bodhi. In order to maintain that the Sethu is man-made, or vanara-made, you have to maintain that the regions where you object to drilling are those where there is loose rocks, fossils, etc., and NOT HARD ROCK.

Evidently, erosion by currents, waves, cyclones and tsunamis has washed those off in the precise location of the proposed dredging, BUT HAVE NOT WASHED THEM OFF in the places where the Political Propaganda is demanding that dredging should be done. So that leaves you solidly supporting destruction of the ACTUAL REMAINS of the Sethu.

Clearly, the TN Minister and ManMohan Singh and Sonia are better friends and protectors of Hindu treasures and traditions, than you and your campaign buddies are.

Q.E. D.

As I said above, this is what comes to all propagandists. Very sorry to see you reduced to this state. Tragic.

narayanan · 04-17-2007, 07:35 PM

Tsk, tsk!

But in defence of "Bodhi" Neelan should realize that "hard rock" IS a sign of "man-made material" to Bodhi. It is what is encountered at a very shallow depth during ear examinations of those who started this "campaign". No drilling needed, just one of those cute thingies that ear doctors use to peer into one's ear and say:

QUOTE Hmmmm!!!Â Ummmmm!!!

Husky · (This post was last modified: 04-17-2007, 09:57 PM by Husky.)

Post 31 (neelan):
QUOTEA premier institute had made 91 boreholes in and around the site to ascertain the truth and the soil samples kept at the Sethu Project Office could be verified.
[...]
Further, Ms Uma Bharti held the Mines portfolio when the Geological Survey of India conducted a detailed survey of the area and concluded that the structure was a natural one.How irrelevant.
(1) The most important point of the pro-Setu side is that the Ramar Sethu has specific meaning to Hindus. This is all that is required, even if there were no other arguments to be made.
Just like the sacred Uluru of the Australian Aboriginals, just like mount Fuji for the Japanese, just like a particular mountain for the Koreans (forgot the name), just like innumerable other manmade or natural formations.

(2) What, I'm supposed to accept this 'premier institute's' say-so as the be all and end all? Next someone will want me to accept the Bannerjee Report too, 'cause it's oh-so-official as well.
No one in power or those hired 'to investigate' by them care enough about the Ramar Sethu to ask the right kind of questions in their research, let alone try to find the answers. Like Ambika Soni said: she doesn't care whether there is a Ramar Sethu or not. She voiced what many another in the govt also feel. And whoever's got the money can pay to make their views published as fact.
The whole Ayodhya issue was the same, the communists and media certainly didn't want to know there was a temple there, so they merely ignored all the evidence for it.

I'd like to know the exact meaning of this:
"concluded that the structure was a natural one". As it stands it can be construed in many ways.
For example, as per the Hindu narrative, entirely natural substances were dropped there. So yeah, the structure is 'natural'.
Also, if any rocks were dropped into the ocean and lingered there for who knows how many thousands of years, they might turn out to meld with the local environment so that scientists many thousands of years later think it was entirely a natural formation. Example, I watched a doco where a ship from first half of last century had sunk to the ocean bed, and now it is very much a part of the local eco-system. (An entire mini-ecology was built around it.) So much a part of it, that the narrator said one would think it had always been a part of that environment. Of course, we know better, since the ship is a manmade object.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 04-17-2007, 09:49 PM by Husky.)

Posts 33 (and 35 as well, I s'pose):
QUOTEThe obviously bogus-named postor "BODHI" who would be better described as "BUDDHOO" writes:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEAh! Thank you Neelan/bud/Dr Narayanan Ji.</div>
QUOTEThis is typical of idiots. They cannot argue and win on logic or facts, so they lie, claim "science" as they lie, and when they are debunked, they pout off. Then they return, with an obviously bogus name like "BODHI", but they feel compelled, because they are idiots, to try and guess the real names of all the postors who don't agree with their lies and nonsense. The elementary decency of respecting the privacy of postors on internet fora are no consideration at all for them. Easy there. No need to get your panties in a twist.
Don't go calling yourself an idiot, now. There's no need to be so harsh with yourself. As I recall (correctly): in the now defunct older Sethusamudram thread that was pulled, it was you who went about accusing Dr Kalyanaraman and Bodhi of being one and the same person. Yeah, I know it hurts, but idiot is just a word after all. Hey, you might even grow out of it.

Can't blame Bodhi for thinking you and Neelan were conjoint twins.
(1) You had earlier, as I've just stated, indicated that you were rather familiar with the idea of duplicating members
(2) Dost protest too much, when trying to uber-distance yourself from Neelan by referring to the person as "him/her" and then once again as "s(h)e". Gave it a lot of thought did ya?
(3) You both make the same kind of 'arguments' or whatever those posts were supposed to be

Sorry Bodhi, I know the glove was thrown your way. Hope you don't mind me interrupting. No need to get your hands dirty, they're mighty nice all squeaky-clean. Best to keep 'em that way.
Me, I always liked playing in the sandbox. Besides, they tell me I look real nice with sand in my hair <!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /> Virtual sand's a bit different, but hey, willing to try.

What can I say, maybe a part of me wants to be kicked out... Hard to keep pretending to be good, altruism isn't my thing...
Not averse to a fight, just preferred a worthwhile adversary. Schade. Certainly always wanted to make a better final post, but guess I can't pick 'n choose the way to go out <!--emo& Wink

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' />

Said Neutrogena to Bodhi:
QUOTEYou are an idiot and a jerk.As I said Neurosis, don't feel bad about having indirectly referred to yourself as an idiot before. Feel for you man, really do. I certainly understand your frustration with yourself and that you feel you want the solace of some company in this perceived idiocy you're under. But you picked the wrong member in Bodhi. He's above you in so many ways (don't try to count how many - I know you find it hard to go beyond 20 with your shoes still on <!--emo& Big Grin

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /> ). It's a shame he ever tried reasoning with you.

Unfortunately, can't find anyone else here to stoop to the same level as you, what with your name-calling and all. Expect everyone here is probably too decent. Guess there's no one else but me. Hmm. You're so unworthy though, not even a comedian. And name-calling - not my style.
If only this could be more enjoyable... Sigh.

Neuroshock or whatever your friends call you, if you want, I can post back and stick around for as long as you like - until you go crying back to your teddybear, that is - before I make my exit. Shame of bringing this shiny place down so low, though, wouldn't you say?
Or you can drop it and show some remorse for hurling abuse at a better person than yourself by deleting your post. (Yeah, I know 'sorry' isn't something you're able to articulate or spell yet; don't worry, I don't make fun of people who are illiterate.)
So, how about it?

04-17-2007, 11:00 PM

Please no name calling here.
Stick to topic.

_moderator.

04-17-2007, 11:01 PM

QUOTEJustice KT Thomas: It is my definite opinion that Ram Setu must not be brokenApril 15, 2007 (Panchajanya)
Justice K.T.Thomas, former judge of Supreme Court of Bharat, is well known for his rectitude. President of India Dr Abdul Kalam decorated him with `Padma Bhushan' award at grand function at Rashtrapati Bhavan, New Delhi, on April 5, 2007 for his impeccable judicial career and for the service he rendered to the cause of justice. After his retirement, Thomas had headed as many as four judicial commissions, that too on sensitive issues. But he completed the task within the stipulated time in all the four instances. Never did he ask for extension of the tenure of his commissions. Also, never did he take a paisa as remuneration or batta for his work in any of these four commissions. His logic: `The pension I get after my retirement from the Supreme Court is from government treasury. How can I take money from the government a second time for doing a government job?' He can afford to be candid on vital issues, thanks to his spotless career. Example: "In projects like this (Sethu Samudram Shipping Canal Project), decisions are to be based not only on a study of geological implications; the religious sentiments of the people are also to be taken into account. The religious sentiments of the people of Bharat must be honoured and there exists a tradition in this land, of honouring religious sentiments.. So, it is my definite opinion that Ram Setu must not be broken", says Thomas.

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