Communal Relations - Conflicting Narratives

04-15-2007, 06:32 AM

Why is it that Hindus cannot defend themselves even when they know how to. When someone says Elephant God on mouse ha ha why can't the answer be Red sea parted, burning bush ha ha,
virgin birth, walk on water ha ha, goat speaks to prophet ha ha. When they say shiv lng ha ha why not say ;male semetic God' ha ha apparently God having ling is very important.
What is it that allows a muslim to insist that Hinduism with its caste system is so bad when their so called egalitarian religion practices a caste system against women and one is not allowed to say squat about it. Why can a Christian insist their religion is about love and peace even as their co-religionists have conducted genocides and other atrocities in it name.

Semitic religions are highly anthropocentric and 'male'. By distancing the creation from the creator, they have unleashed a war on nature and destroyed harmony. The Hindu narrative must also include the rain, the peacock, the deer, the tiger, the clouds, and the harmony as man/woman understand their oneness with nature and don't seek to undermine it in the name of an unknown God made in their image.
Stories like this:

' It so happened that Sankara and the divine pair reached Sringeri on an exceptionally hot noon. As they proceeded to the river Tunga for their ablutions, they saw a frog struggling in the blazing sun to be delivered of its offspring. A cobra, the natural enemy of frog, raised its hood to provide the frog with shelter and protection from the ravages of the tropical sun.

Sankara was greatly moved by the sight. If there was paradise on earth, here it was, where the lion and the lamb, the tiger and the cow, the cobra and the frog lived in mutual amity and peace. He just turned round when, as she had already stipulated, Bharati, known also as Sarada, decided to stay for good at Sringeri on the banks of the sacred Tunga.'

are unique to indic religions and India.

But it is not as if we have nothing to learn from others. The qawwali, the shairi, and the syncretic
traditions of India have also contributed to her richness. Even as we build our narrative lets not throw the baby out with the bath water.

p.s. how do I change my login name as it is apparently not appropriate.

Ajatshatru,Apr 14 2007, 09:00 PM Wrote:
justme,Apr 14 2007, 03:44 PM Wrote:[quote=Ajatshatru,Apr 14 2007, 06:56 PM]Shiv

If I could add that Hindus have to resort to the same strategy some people of other religions resort to with when dealing with Hindus in order to try to put Hindus on the defensive

When dealing with such people, Hindus can maybe use the strategy you best described sometime back i.e. the example of 'You farted'...now let the other person start defending himself/herself or the other strategy 'so what if my shirt is torn, your fly is open' is the strategy Hindus can also use instead of Hindus going on the defensive, eventually getting angry and lashing out.
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>>>Why not resort to educating them.

What is the your target audience when you talk of educating them? No.2 Educating them on what specific aspect of Hinduism i.e. Are you talking about educating them about actual history of Hinduism or about threat posed by Js and EJs or about how Westerners(and our own commies) use Psy Op talking about such things as caste system etc ad nauseum to try to put Hindus on defensive. No.3 how do you intend reaching them to 'resort to educating them'? Hopefully solutions to such questions and much more may come out of a frank discussion of Hindu narrative.

I think this is precisely one of the reasons why we so desperately need Hindu narrative and are hoping that conclusions arrived at may provide us Hindus some answers that would prove crucial in our Hindus fight against the threats of Js and EJs now and for future generations.
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04-15-2007, 06:56 AM

QUOTE(narayanan @ Apr 15 2007, 05:36 AM)
Forgive me, but I am still standing at the station - trying to figure out what "Hindu Narrative" means.

Is it mothers all over the universe telling their brats;

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE Ramayan patha ... phir pooccha: "Seeth ko Rama kaun thi? <img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blink.gif' /> 
..
Narrating what, please?
</div>

The Yindoo story, The way the Yindoo sees the world. What the Yindoo does. Did you know that "Akshaya Tritiya" was celebrated recently? Anyone have a clue what that is? But thousands of Yindoos marked it and bought at least a gram of gold each.

People around here live by a Hindu calendar when it comes to marking events like festivals, birthdays, weddings etc. May-June-July have no role. But most people - even people who like to call others Deracinated Indian Elites do not know anything about the Hindu calendar that every Indian around you is using. That is loss of narrative for those of us who are helping top forget and helping to ignore what is still there.

But there is some analysis and archeology to be done and it must be done for anglophones who are helping the loss of narrative.

Why is Hindu child taught not to tell lies? Guess why? Could it be because it says "Thou shalt not lie" in the Ten commandments?

Most people you ask will tell you "Because our elders/teachers taught us that one must not tell lies"

That may be true, but who taught the teachers? Moses?

The basis of Hindu morality lies in the countless retelling and recalling of stories from Hindu epics that mold the Hindu character into a person who feels guilty if he tells lies, is unfair, or if he ill treats and animal, or if he is unkind to an elderly person, or disrespects what must be considered "holy"

Countless Hindu stories speak of morality and huge number are based on the epics. The retelling of those stories that grandmother used to tell you when she fed you as a baby is being lost. I would not be surprising at all to find a Hindu saying that he must not tell lies because it says so in the ten commandment. That would be an irrevocable loss of Hindu narrative.

I am not sure if India forum considers it its mandate - but we need a place to dump stories from Hindu childhood for recording and spread.

Some time down the line I am going to start a thread and write down every single sloka that I know - and which were transmitted to me verbally by my father in the same order that his grandfather used to say them. I will put them down in angrezi script because even that has a role. Keywords will be Googl-able, and I will ask anyone with knowledge who recognizes a sloka to provide a translation, which my father did not give me - leading to what is a personal loss of narrative.

Every festival needs to be marked - at least a "Happy diwali" and a brief description of any special features of Diwali in your ancestral home - eg a particular item of food is traditionally cooked in my home for no discernible reason. Al this is part of the narrative.

04-15-2007, 06:58 AM

QUOTE(prem @ Apr 14 2007, 07:22 AM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sumann Bharadwaja Sarma @ Apr 14 2007, 01:42 AM)Hi Abhijit,

Would it also be possible to get list of people actively constructing the Hindu narrative in our times?Â

I tend to think of the narrative as my story-- just what am I about in relation to Bharath and Hinduism. It starts out simply as things about my childhood, my family, and how they came to be. It then brings in my ancestors and how they came to be, our village, the dialect and how all that came to be. It catalogs regular and peculiar customs of our community and what we've endured, how we screwed up, and where we shined. At some point all that mingles with your story and the next, becoming our narrative. From such kathopÄgyÄna may emerge a modern ArthaÅÄstra that serves as the compass of our destiny.

Our narrative has become so private that I find strange lyrics in what I thought was our song. I find myself gobbed with so many layers of distant world-views that I am yet to begin the first line of the first scentence of the first book of the first volume after having gone a good length of my life.

That is the reason I ask for list of people or types, and not in the least meaning it to be provocative.

Thank you.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Abhijit @ Apr 13 2007, 12:52 PM)I would like to dissect the fourth issue I mentioned in my post viz. why is there a fierce opposition to a Hindu narrative by various sections. First let me try to list the various sections that are (IMO) opposed to a Hindu narrative.
- EJ's
- IJ's
- Commies
- Non-EJ Christian Indians (at least a section of them - probably a large one)
- Non-jihadi Indian Muslims (at least a section of them - probably a large one)
- Non-commie Hindus who believe they are secular but probably do not understand the implications of 'secularism'
- Lower caste Hindus, especially those who carry an anti-upper caste chip on their shoulders
- Business leaders

Is that an exhaustive list or did I miss any big section?
I intend to expand on this issue in a series of posts as time permits and invite others to chip in.
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Swami Vivekananda already explained the Universal nature of Vedantic Path. This Universality makes absorption of ideas easy.
Hinduism shoud stand for Universality and Individual Hindu as part of whole connected Universe.
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Universalism of Vedanta was in context of What should Hindu stand for.
The answer to Ej aggression lies in another quote by Swami. He wanted Hindu society Vedantic in mind and islamic in body.
It is the combination of both we need with different degree of mix at the periphery as well as inside of Hindu Civilizational Circle. Islamic society has used this method successfuly but with "Islamic Mind"

I am assuming that capabilty of giving collective response exist in our society.

04-15-2007, 06:59 AM

[quote=prakash,Apr 15 2007, 06:32 AM]

p.s. how do I change my login name as it is apparently not appropriate.

please change it to Meena

[ADMIN - DONE]

04-15-2007, 07:06 AM

QUOTE(narayanan @ Apr 15 2007, 05:46 AM)Do we rich people ever consider that no Almighty worthy of that name, would ever be impressed by someone paying a Rs. 2000 bribe to the temple money-collectors, to save time in making the "darshan"?

Once I was snuck inside the Guruvayoor temple, skipping maybe half an hour of queue, by some friend of my relative who had accompanied us. On compassionate grounds, no bribe, reasoning that "US-retarned" wimps would probably faint if they had to stand on their own feet for a few minutes.

Took me a year to get over the shame of that line-jumping. Long training should have automatically made me refuse the special consideration, very firmly and with no "ifs" and "buts". But the moment for that came and went, and I just "acquiesed".


No N.

No shame here - none at all.

You are going for a Darshan. You owed someone money a debt from a previous life - and your darshan could be complete only after you paid that debt. It had to happen that way.

As for others behind you - for some - it was a deliberate choice of staying in line as part of their own personal bhakti, and for others - it was a debt they were repaying for some previous transgression.

You were not "sinning" you were merely reaping what karma had in store. Do not dwell on this non incident. You have killed no one. You have hurt no one. You have not asked for the hurting or killing of anyone? Why torture yourself?

G.Subramaniam · 04-15-2007, 07:20 AM

QUOTE(Vishwamitra @ Apr 15 2007, 01:27 AM)G. Subramaniam
I have visited Vigilonline.com. Could you post some details regarding how you contribute to renovation of old dilapidated temples if at all.
Thanks in advance
Vishwamitra
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Contact Radharajan who runs vigil and ask to be put in touch with Badri

G.Subramaniam · 04-15-2007, 07:25 AM

QUOTE(sroy @ Apr 15 2007, 01:08 AM)

On the topic: GS's method of renovating temples is a very potent idea. A good place to spread awareness about community related issues, good place to introduce the kids to the intricacies of Sanatana Dharma, etc.

Beside renovating temples, the caretakers and priests need to be taken into confidence to make them aware of the important role that they have in this age. The role of temples to should expand.
Temples must become the centre of community life as they were in the past.
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As part of the temple renovation project, SV.Badri also does this in a cost effective way
Just think, $500 to keep a village free of EJs

narayanan · (This post was last modified: 04-15-2007, 08:08 AM by narayanan.)

SV:

Thanks very much. Now I have a better sense of what you are trying. No argument there on the need for this, and I strongly support the effort.

However..... as with most things, I am blessed, or cursed depending on one's perspective, with the need to see things from the odd and unpopular angle. I would submit that the best-intentioned efforts to bring out the Hindu narrative, flounder on the rocks between the ears of far too many of our fellow-travelers on the Wheel of Punarjanmam. I don't mean that they are stupid - they are not. But the "narrative" is used far too freely to rationalize the indefensible. And way too rigid in their insistence on this, again using the "narrative" as the source of support.

One example of what I mean, and I use it gently, is the one about the queue-jumping. Yes, everything can be rationalized as "karma" or "vidhi" or "Bhavitavyam Bhaved eva". This is extremely useful in trying to rationalize tragedies, as in "Why did the Almighty allow that child to burn to death?" Or something like that.

IMO, the most important part of reviving the Hindu narrative is to point out why the best traditions, habits and discipline of humanity anywhere, are in line with Hindu tradition. No problem there, people will agree with me happily, just like they like to hear that 33% of NASA employees are Hindus, 99% of Silicon Valley was built by Indians (translation: Hindus), yada yada yada.

But when I then point out that many things that are done in India under the excuse of "v r like that onlee" or "this is our tradition" are NOT in any original Narrative, but are just social evils that crept into stagnant society, or are simple results of human greed, lust and bullying nature, then people get very mad at me.

Let me give some examples:

1. It is part of the Hindu narrative that Hindus are given strict instructions on getting up early (enough to say "namaskaram" to the Sun by bowing and prostrating TOWARDS THE EASTERN HORIZON, not by lying on one's back and saying "Howdy" at midday)
...

and to take a bath and then spend some time in worship....

But "taking a bath" does NOT mean: "go immerse yourself in a filthy stream where half-burned corpses are floating by, and still feel real holy". Common sense should dictate that the Hindu should then take the trouble to demand clean-up of the river, and in fact REFUSE to go take a dip in the dirty water until that is done. In fact, the practise of dumping half-burned corpses, or any human remains, into the prime source of drinking water for millions of people downstream, should be banned.

But that would be sacrilege, to even suggest that .. because the supersitition that having one's corpse burned and dumped into the river at a specific spot guarantees a special line-jumping in the Ultimate Darshan, is allowed to overrule the common sense of doing what is necessary for the nation and its environment, and for clean drinking water.

To me, the "narrative" must be disciplined enough to reject things which go against common sense, basic hygiene, the civil rights of fellow humans, and against basic decency.

The "narrative" should never be used to rationalize indiscipline, laziness, greed, lust or denial of civil rights.

The "narrative" should never be ALLOWED to be used to rationalize hatred or hateful conduct.

So it is about far more than reciting long slokams without considering their real meaning, and how the ancients came to believing in them.

It is about separating those things that came from evolved human practices in a very different time, from the basic underlying principles.

But, hey, I am all for celebrations and happiness. This is something that we learned young in India: that we have the right to celebrate anyone's happiness. And that this is a precious right.

OK, enough incendiary examples for today. What I am trying to do, if anyone has not seen it, is to explain why the odds are stacked in favor of those who diss Hinduism. And what needs to be done to start leveling the odds.

************************************************

Well.. since I am on a roll here with blasphemy...

In the late 1980s, through the early 90s, many temples in my part of the matrubhoomi were in a sad state of disrepair. Thus even so stingy a person as moi decided that one should do what one could, to prevent the disappearance of these treasures.

One did, in one's small ways.

Since the mid-90s or so, the tide had obviously turned. These temples have increasingly articulate, well-organized, thoughtful planners and fundraisers and implementers working for them locally. I hold that the upkeep of temples, and the protection of local history, are properly the responsibility of those around and near it. And they should do it.

Temples are crucial to Hindu Dharma, but Hindu Dharma is NOT temples, as SV so clearly pointed out. Giving money to temples makes one feel good, no doubt, but the focus, esp. of ppl outside, should be on building the institutions and practices of the future. Going back to did up one's Roots is so cute, but helping to give hope and opportunity is more important.

On the other hand, temple festivals generate economic benefits for the locals, that are just as important as building new businesses or bringing new technologies. In fact, I think temples and festivals should be used as focal points for bringing the best in technology, but always with an eye towards enhancing the best of ancient traditions and community beliefs.

To me, the real challenge is how to use the Narrative, with clear, contemporary interpretation and explanation, to achieve modern ends.

04-15-2007, 08:21 AM

QUOTE(sengotuvel @ Apr 15 2007, 06:56 AM)Some time down the line I am going to start a thread and write down every single sloka that I know - and which were transmitted to me verbally by my father in the same order that his grandfather used to say them. I will put them down in angrezi script because even that has a role. Keywords will be Googl-able, and I will ask anyone with knowledge who recognizes a sloka to provide a translation, which my father did not give me - leading to what is a personal loss of narrative.

Every festival needs to be marked - at least a "Happy diwali" and a brief description of any special features of Diwali in your ancestral home - eg a particular item of food is traditionally cooked in my home for no discernible reason. Al this is part of the narrative.


Shiv,
Thank you. I appreciate your efforts in bringing forth the Hindu narrative. Hindu worldview and its traditions need to saved for future generations before they are irrevocably lost. Again, thank you.
<img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/specool.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='specool.gif' />
Satya evam Jayati.

Husky · (This post was last modified: 04-15-2007, 10:41 AM by Husky.)

Post 100:
QUOTEOne should visit temple as a zero. No ego, No money power or No muscle power. Forget about everything. <!--emo& Smile

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /> Very true.

QUOTEWhy in South they have different rates for visiting temple?
Why they have to charge?
Not seen in North India (Punjab, HP, Utranchal, Delhi, Haryana, Kashmir and Jammu)This is in very large temples where they have *huge* numbers of Hindus visiting. Mudy, put this in perspective.

Embarrassing personal experience from when I was younger and terribly ignorant:
My parents, sister and I were waiting in a long line at a large Kovil (temple). I noticed there was a very old lady looking like her legs could give any minute. Her eyes had gone bluish greyish of the cataract that seems to take over all our older population of that generation. In short, I felt someone ought to do something.
There was a left and a right queue (either side was equally slow). She was farther back. Thinking to help her, I went to where she was, took her by the hand, brought her forward and made her take my place. She didn't understand what I was doing (I tried to explain) muttered in some other language and then followed me back to where I had just taken her old place in the queue. She had tears in her eyes. I didn't understand and felt very bad, and finally decided to join my family again. My father was very upset. He told me I shouldn't have done such a thing.

He explained later that what I had done was the same as if this had been Shabari Malai and I had taken her from the Steps and forced her into an elevator. <!--emo& Sad

--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' />
It's not about it being easier for her or anybody else. This was the mental process people put themselves through before they see the Gods.
The Steps to the Shabari Malai temple for instance, are trodden with Swami Ayyappa in mind all the way through. Each additional step purifies the mind further, until at last one comes to the top and then catches sight of Ayyappa Swami. The Steps represent life: each step is another life or another tribulation. (And at each step we evolve to become better beings.) But by thinking of Swami all the way through, one has one's sight (heart) set on that Final Goal, which guides us through all the difficulties and cycle of lives and sees you through, until we finally attain Moksha and see God.

When my father told me this, I realised what my 'elevator' tactic had done. There was no instant Moksha to be obtained by my kidnapping (what else was it?) the old lady and disturbing her mental preparation/thoughts before seeing the Gods.

Anyway, my point in relating the terrible, foolish incident is this: all of those who wait for days to see Tirupathi Swami know *exactly* what they are doing. They are not 'the poor' who 'just can't afford' the speedy drop-in-and-out to see Bhagavan - yes, many of them are very poor, but no it's not money that is keeping them in their line. They are willing to wait for days <i>for a reason</i>. Their happiness and the sense of liberation and attainment they get out of it is all the greater for what they choose to go through.
As my father regularly says, the God in the temple is waiting to see *them* for as long as they've been waiting to see Him/Her. God has been waiting for them, more than She/He is waiting to see us.
For instance, I do no mental preparation on the way to the temple or when waiting in line to see God. My mind is at best empty: just waiting. Theirs is not, it is filled with the thought of God, in patient, studied anticipation. This is what the older generations know about visiting the temple, it is why the temples are built the way they are, why we circambulate and do other things. It's stuff your grandparents and parents forget to tell you unless you ask or do something foolish that forces them to explain.

The more 'expensive' short-cut lines of nowadays are there for a reason. Many travellers from outside the state (or country) come to Tirupathi, often they are married couples on their honeymoon, or NRIs who have only a week or two to stay in India. In their way, they have waited a long time to see Bhagavan, though they have not waited in the line to do so. Many other people come every week or fortnight, though they wait days in the line. So, it's not bad to let rare visitors desperate to see Bhagavan in there faster.

More importantly, in quite recent times, some temples had realised that since a number of people were willing to pay to see God asap anyway, they might as well make a short-cut line. And the money is <i>certainly</i> welcome. With 2000 Rs from each person-in-a-hurry, do you know how many mouths the temple can feed in S India? For example, in Chennai, a very good Hindu vegetarian restaurant I've eaten in a few times in (and it was one of the more expensive ones), costs 6 to 12 Rs for a full meal. The temple can make meals for much cheaper. Even if it was as high as 10 Rs per meal, that's 200 people it can feed just from one rich person's fee. Bring in more rich people, I say.
The different lines are good. If some people are able and willing to pay the amount just to get there faster, it will only go towards helping others. Besides, the others who are in the slower lines have no trouble with being there at all.
Just wish so much of the money wasn't going to church coffers and funding j-hadists' hajj, thanks to terrorist government. It should remain with temples to spend on maintenance and feeding people.

04-15-2007, 09:39 AM

I am loathe to intruduce expressions that I conceived of on BRF although some are invaluable.

One such expression is piskology and I bring it up in the context of the Hindu narrative.

One of the things I have notioced on the internet is a far greater sense of despondncy and loss among NRI Hindus than I feel. I am not saying 'NRIs are wrong, I am right" and I do not mean for one minute to suggest that Hindus and Hinduism is not under threat.

But I believe that the topic of "reviving" or "rescuing" Hinduism from sloth by strengtheining the narrative is somewhat akin to either getting a patient better from an illness, or recovering a plane in a spin.

In both these examples it is important to recognize the "current state" of the entity under threat.

Hinduism is far from dead and there are signs of new life everywhere. But that new life may actually hide the assaults that have been documented on here. I sometimes wish I could carry a webcam as I walk into Lalbagh in the morning to document the innumerable signs of life, signs of the Hindu narrative being lived every moment.

I could carry my low res phone camera - but it is likely that at least in some instances I wil be spoiling or interfereing in someones personal "tapas" by the vulgarity of taking a photograph. However - I will try.

The important thing is to write the narrative to give meaning to the ritual.

Why do people stand in Lalbagh and face the sun and pray?

I was taught to wake up in the morning, turn Eastwards towards the rising sun, and then to cup my palms and look at them and say :

QUOTE<i>
Karaagre vasathe Lakshmi
kara-madhye Saraswathi
Kara-moole stithe Govindah
Prabhaate kara darshanam
</i>

Another prayer my Grandmother used to associate with the morning - which will be familiar to millions courtesy MS Subbulakshmi

QUOTE<i>Uthhishta Uthhishta Govinda
Uthhishta Garudadhwaja
Uthhishta Kamala kaanta
Trai-lokyam mangalam kuru.</i>

04-15-2007, 09:51 AM

Did you know that we are now at the tail end of the month "Chaitra". In a few days we will be in the month of "Vaishakha" - or Baisakhi. Yes the same Baisakhi that Pakis dread. It's a good time of year - the winter crops get harvested and weddings and happy functions take place.

For me it gets difficult personally - I often have to attend two or even three weddings or functions in a day and with Bangalore traffic I often can't make it to even one.

04-15-2007, 10:42 AM

Good to see you here Doc!

Reggie

Bodhi · (This post was last modified: 04-15-2007, 11:26 AM by Bodhi.)

Post 100:
QUOTEOne should visit temple as a zero. No ego, No money power or No muscle power. Forget about everything.

Well said Mudy!

Another perspective of 'visiting temple'.

Sant Sri Surdasji spent his old age days in Vrindavan, living near a temple of Radha Rani. As a rule, he used to visit the temple everyday early in the morning. The temple was (is) at somewhat height, and needed climbing several steps.

Once during a chilling harsh winter morning, while he was climbing the steps to the temple, he fell down and hurt himself badly - blind and aged as he was. When people noticed, they came to him and took care of him. Someone asked him why he went for darshan everyday, as he was blind and could not see anything anyways.

To this he innocently replied, I go not to the temple to have darshan of Radha - as you said, I am blind anyways. But brother, I go everyday so that at least my mother Radha can see me, if I not her. To temple I go, as a child goes into the lap of his mother every now and then.

But we are not Surdasji.

04-15-2007, 01:22 PM

QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ Apr 14 2007, 09:17 PM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTEis it true that mention of Gods and Godesses like Shiva, Laxmi, Ganesh and others is found only in Puranas and there is no mention of them in Vedas and Upanishads?

shiva and lakShmI are deities worshipped in the vedas. The classical elephant headed gaNesha is a very late deity emerging in the late vedic/post-vedic period and is not mentioned in the vedic saMhitA-s

QUOTEAlso, in Hinduism are God and Parmatama(Param Aatmaa) different? 
God is an english word- if you translate Ishvara as god then paramAtman and god are not the same. If brahman is translated as god then may be yes.

Given the link between language and the thought process, Indic languages are a must for correct description of Hindu terms.
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HH,

I thought Shiva/Vishnu/Lakshmi are qualified ideas of Rudra/Purusha/Devi mentioned in Upanishads/Vedas. Since, qualification of these entities I thought came up later in the Purana section of "Hinduism". Maybe I am wrong.

Also, the word "God" as used by Christians/Muslims do not apply to the Hindu concepts of Ishwara, or Nirguna Brahman. Maybe Saguna Brahman, at par with Indra, Varuna, Vishnu etc. I think the Hindu ideas have much more granularity wrt the concept of God - as in a Hindu KNOWS the differences, even the ones without any Vedic initiation or study.

Regards,
Eswar

04-15-2007, 02:36 PM

Shiv Writes:

>>>Some time down the line I am going to start a thread and write down every single sloka that I know

Shivji, naiki aur pooch pooch... but why open a new thread, why not on this thread itself?

Here's a shloka I like:

Asatoma Ma Sadgamaya
tamaso ma jyotirgamaya
mrtyorma amrtam gamaya

(lead me from the asat to the sat
lead me from darkness to light
lead me from death to immortality)

And Eswar, what I was trying to say earlier was( if you also look at the story I had written in that post) that Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesha and others are all 'Bhagwan' (we Hindus have many 'Bhagwans') but there is just one 'Param Aatma' (Sikhs call it 'Nirankar').

04-15-2007, 03:13 PM

QUOTE(Ajatshatru @ Apr 15 2007, 02:36 PM)
Asatoma Ma Sadgamaya
tamaso ma jyotirgamaya
mrtyorma amrtam gamaya

(lead me from the asat to the sat
lead me from darkness to light
lead me from death to immortality)


Lakhs of kids in Kendiriya Vidyalayas (Central Scools) sing this after the Ode-to-Knowledge (Daya kar daan, Vidya kaa..) in the daily Morning Assembly.

We knew the meaning (transaltion), but not the source of this.

I am glad that KVs have so far been free of controversies regarding the 'Hindu/Sanskritic' origin of the prayers, which for all purposes, are secular.

04-15-2007, 03:58 PM

QUOTE(rishi @ Apr 15 2007, 10:43 AM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ajatshatru @ Apr 15 2007, 02:36 PM)
Asatoma Ma Sadgamaya
tamaso ma jyotirgamaya
mrtyorma amrtam gamaya

(lead me from the asat to the sat
lead me from darkness to light
lead me from death to immortality)


Lakhs of kids in Kendiriya Vidyalayas (Central Scools) sing this after the Ode-to-Knowledge (Daya kar daan, Vidya kaa..) in the daily Morning Assembly.

We knew the meaning (transaltion), but not the source of this.

I am glad that KVs have so far been free of controversies regarding the 'Hindu/Sanskritic' origin of the prayers, which for all purposes, are secular.
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(Brhadaranyaka Upanishad â I.iii.28)

04-15-2007, 05:31 PM

QUOTE(Ajatshatru @ Apr 15 2007, 02:36 PM)
Shivji, naiki aur pooch pooch... but why open a new thread, why not on this thread itself?



Main reason being that I want to stay on course wrt to thread title and talk about communal relations, and save the shlokas for a dedicated space.

04-15-2007, 05:54 PM

QUOTE(sengotuvel @ Apr 15 2007, 01:01 PM)<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ajatshatru @ Apr 15 2007, 02:36 PM)
Shivji, naiki aur pooch pooch... but why open a new thread, why not on this thread itself?



Main reason being that I want to stay on course wrt to thread title and talk about communal relations, and save the shlokas for a dedicated space.
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Ok, fair enough, but I thought this topic 'Communal Relations - Conflicting Narratives' which Arun transferred from BR to IF Forum was originally named/started by you as 'Religion thread'. Becoz some Admins in BR may have had objections to the title 'Religion thread' so the thread was re-named as 'Communal Relations - Conflicting Narratives' for the sake of convenience.

Didn't know 'Communal Relations thread' is different from the earlier started 'Religion thread'. I thought this thread 'Communal Relations' would be all encompassing and would cover anything and everything that is related to Hindu narrative.

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