<!--QuoteBegin-SwamyG+Apr 23 2007, 08:40 AM-->QUOTE(SwamyG @ Apr 23 2007, 08:40 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> So are the South Indian losing out to non-South-Indians? Is the South-Indian narrative being not told.
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No SwamyG
Please leave our girls out of this. They have carried the culture flame for centuries and they need a break. Men need to help. Girls wear the salwar kameez for practicality and modesty. Leave their choice to them
I will post an interesting photo in this regard - give me some time to dig it out..
Now wait a minute. I did not bring ladies into the discussion. Neither have I said anything untoward about them. You pointed out changing fashion styles, and I pointed out the same thing. If you are going to accommodate salwar and kameez to be practical, why not accommodate trousers as being practical too? I have even pointed out the changing fashion styles of men too. Can't say I have been partial <!--emo&:bhappy--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/b_woot.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='b_woot.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-SwamyG+Apr 23 2007, 08:52 AM-->QUOTE(SwamyG @ Apr 23 2007, 08:52 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Now wait a minute. I did not bring ladies into the discussion. Neither have I said anything untoward about them. You pointed out changing fashion styles, and I pointed out the same thing. If you are going to accommodate salwar and kameez to be practical, why not accommodate trousers as being practical too? I have even pointed out the changing fashion styles of men too. Can't say I have been partial <!--emo&:bhappy--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/b_woot.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='b_woot.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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No accusation against you. All I was trying to point out is that men changed to trousers not out of practicality or fashion - but out of necessity. They had to appear right to work for Islamic or Brit bosses. The women were sheltered from that and continued to wear clothes that were perfectly practical for their lifestyles. Until now..
<!--QuoteBegin-SwamyG+Apr 23 2007, 08:40 AM-->QUOTE(SwamyG @ Apr 23 2007, 08:40 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Well that is my personal peeve. The Kendriya Vidyalaya education never taught much about South Indians. Even if it was taught, what stuck in mind is about Maurya, Guptas, Mughals. What stuck is Chandrasekhar Azad, Bhagat Singh, Gandhi and Nehru. Such is the treatment to very own parts of India.
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Well dude and you still thrash around going about crying "we need proof"
04-23-2007, 05:42 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-23-2007, 05:43 PM by Husky.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->We still consider our gods decked with crown and jewels; clothes and weapons all belonging to thousands of years ago. Let us put Muruga in Khakis, Bata chappals and Gandhi cap. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Poor joke.
Every item of dress Muruga wears is of significance. He will wear the kind of clothes he has always worn. Surprised anyone would suggest otherwise.
(Soo too the other Gods, by the way.)
<!--QuoteBegin-saty+Apr 23 2007, 12:21 PM-->QUOTE(saty @ Apr 23 2007, 12:21 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-SwamyG+Apr 23 2007, 08:40 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SwamyG @ Apr 23 2007, 08:40 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
Well that is my personal peeve. The Kendriya Vidyalaya education never taught much about South Indians. Even if it was taught, what stuck in mind is about Maurya, Guptas, Mughals. What stuck is Chandrasekhar Azad, Bhagat Singh, Gandhi and Nehru. Such is the treatment to very own parts of India.
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Well dude and you still thrash around going about crying "we need proof"
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Swamy dude, you are lying.
I guess saty (whom I'm familiar from BRF...and if I recollect some posts of his) and I are also ex-KVites. And our history books hand good references to south Indian history.
What "stuck" in your mind is your problem. Learn to back up with facts before you speak, atleast grab the 10th class history book from your neighbourhood kids.
BTW, going by your ways you'll soon parade goddesses in bikinis. Why blame an Islamist MFH when our Swamiji can do his job (with the Hindu credibility to boot).
The change of clothes has much less to do with comfort but has everything to do with the what's portrayed as cool, lol what's comforting about decking up with a coat and necktie in the hot climate of South India, none that I can see, it's similar to the language issue, during Muslim rule a lot of foreign words seeped into the languages because they were dominant then, now English words are coming in because in today's world the West is the dominant force, same thing with dress.
Also I don't know how clothes worn on murtis are outdated, I don't know if people noticed but despite all the talk of comfort level the majority of women to this day do wear the sari and the men especially in villages do wear dhoti/lungi.
04-24-2007, 01:03 AM
(This post was last modified: 04-24-2007, 01:08 AM by Bodhi.)
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Indian and Hindu culture is treated on par with "lost cultures" aka Inca/Mayan civilization, while Hindus have been living that culture hidden away in their homes, successfully leading double lives as though the culture did not exist.
This was IMO - the most successful covert, culture saving operation in the history of the world and successfully staved off the culture-erasing assault of Islam and Christianity, although Hinduism was not left untouched.
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Very well said. Please read "Essays - Literary Occasions" by VS Naipaul. In one of the essays (I dont recall the name), he traced back as to how Hindus survived as Hindus in caribbean. He relates how the ship that brought his ancestors to Caribbean was named 'Ganga', and quite a metaphore, ganga still remains with them in caribbean. He relates the struggle of 4 past generations before him to remain a true Hindu, and how his grandfather and father rejected 'progress' to preserve their ancestors culture, how his father who was the first journalist on the island, used his skills NOT to eliminate the culture of their ancestors, but to further develop it. He explains, how every Hindu home on island still has a temple, and Hindu male (or female) still treasures his/her Shikha. How mango and Ashok leaves are still sought after to perform the rites, and how dispite christianist aggression, Hindi and Bhojpuri are still the languages of the homes. He did also compare the change in culture of immigrant Hindus in Suriname which was a Duth colony and that in Trinidad which was a British colony. Trinidad Hindus, he explains, did change the ways of their ancestors, as compared to those in Suriname. Those in Suriname, are more closer to their origins, and a happier, more succesful, and wealthier lot.
I myself had the opportunity to come across so many Hindus of Indian descent from Suriname in The Netherlands a few years back - who despite having lost contact from India for generations, still have faithfully preserved the Hindu civilization in their homes, and lives. I met several gentlemen with a thick Shikha/choti on their heads, and tilak on foreheads. I met several of such talking and singing in Bhojpuri, and sending their children to a "Vishnu School" to learn Hindu culture. They perform all the sanskars as close to the tradition as possible.
I remember my grandfather who was a teacher in a missionary college. He would wear pants and jacket etc at college since such was the norm. But as soon as he came back home, he would change to dhoti. He only wore dhoti to go anywhere other than college. By several example of his own life, he taught us that traditions of our ancestors must be respected and upheld.
Sroy:
Well if you think it had good references in the KV books, so be it. It was not enough for me. That is my point. I did not say they never taught anything, did I? Before calling some one a liar hopefully you make it a point to read their post.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->BTW, going by your ways you'll soon parade goddesses in bikinis. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Slippery Slope alert :-) You can not make me defend something that I never stated or implied.
As far saty, well he has not proved that he befits a reply. Let him stop his knee-jerking reactions. He hardly seems to be person who seems to care for others' opinions. No point in addressing that KVite, at least yet.
Husky:
That was not even a joke for you to consider it be poor. The significance is as per the standards when that "image" was created. Are you saying we are not capable of creating the same significance with modern clothing and accessories? That was my point. He will wear the kind of clothes that <b>people want him to wear.</b> (Soo too the other Gods, by the way.)
sengotuvel saheb!,
regarding saving lives.. my father's last journey in Earth was a visit to attend my cousin's marriage in a village .. it had very bad medical facilities or no ER at all., have to travel about 100kms of bad roads to reach coimbatore. He succumbed to a heart attack, and no Doctors in the vicinity.
Now the question.. from medical advancement point of view (forget X-ianity), without analysing results, there existed a possibility of father living a little longer.. and no one deny me that. Now, I understand your "ponaal pogatum poda" theory.. from an acceptance mode, but, what fails me to reason from the narratives is that no individual in any remote area of India should be left without medical attention. I know its arguable, for the natural death cases, but lets take events like accident, or a robber stabs a person, etc. which could be based on actions that can be best described with karmic laws.
My point is, from this example, we have to only think about positives of medical facilities, and advancement available rather compare to a religious-ness. I don't know if X-tians would want to claim it was their God's wish that they have better facilities.. the same argument can't be placed for Indic-City, and an Indic-Village.
Where do we stand on this on a national perspective? Service to mankind should be one of the biggest karmic and dharmic realities and narratives., especially who would understand that we all live by the same concept of vasudeva kutumbakam.
me--thinking from positives onlee!.. the reflections and experience out in the public narrate very little for a congregated story line.. that stands height with might. we are seeing many such weakening scenarios, especially after the rich-poor gap created by city-village infrastructure issues.
!?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->http://www.hindu.com/2005/07/07/stories/2005070706881100.htm Conscience, the defence against corruption A.P.J. Abdul Kalam<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spiritual leaders have evolved morals, codes, and teachings of righteousness. Beautiful hymns, songs and prayers have been written and composed. But the annihilation of conscience by corruption appears frightening. Religion has not been effective in evoking conscience. Who then will? Can our conscience be redeemed?
SaiK - I am not for one millisecond arguing against medical facilities everywhere. Age and experience taught me that the cynical ward-assistants in that 1983 Casualty in Pondicherry were not against saving life - they had just seen too many Casualty officers like me inflicting fruitless injury and indignity on a human who had already suffered a great deal and who was bound to die given the pathetic facilities available in those days. As a young enthusiastic surgeon I did not realise that - I had knowledge, but no judgement or perspective. In 2007 I can see their point.
We are dealing in some serious "life-philosophy" issues here and life and death and events at the point of death are very emotive issues that civilizations have reached their own conclusions about over centuries.
The way death and life saving treatment are viewed are greatly dependent on how people view things, and at the risk of digression I will describe some insights I have gained.
When a man's heart stops his brain will die in about 3 minutes, after which reviving his heart will leave him a brain damaged vegetable and potential organ donor. What is done to a human being when his heart stops is that people start giving cardiac massage - a desperate if life preserving act that appears like you are trying to kill the person you are trying to save. A tube is stuck down his windpipe and this act occurs in an environment in whichone person is jerking up and down giving massage. The dying persons face may be covered with vomit, saliva or other secretions, and his neck has to be extended backwards to push a tube in the windpipe and this looks like you are trying to break his neck. Another desperate measure would be to stick a long needle straight through the chest into the heart, suck blood out to confirm you are in the heart and then inject heart stimulating drugs. Alternatively you give a high voltage electric shock that makes the victim jump and convulse like he is being kicked by an artillery shell. All this has to be done in full public view in some instances.
Not surprisingly - if you fail to save a life, people will think that you actually killed him with all those horrible things you did. If you save him then people ignore the horrible things as a bad memory.
It requires some judgement to decide who merits such inhuman treatment to save his life. If you have a person who is dying of cancer who is in pain and has suffered for months, there may be no merit in trying to restart his heart if it should stop and a decision not to do that is reached in consultation with relevant all round consultation.
In India I have found time and again that there have been instances where well meaning doctors have immediately started all the heart restarting drama and failed to save the life. They then get blamed and a police case is made out against them for murder and relatives break up hospital furniture. On the other hand, a more worldly wise doctor - seeing that a man's heart has stopped can spend crucial life-saving minutes explaining that the person is about to die (while the man's brain dies in those few minutes). After that the doctor does what he can, but the patient dies and everyone is "deeply grateful to the doctor who did everything and knew that the person would die". The doctor in this case has done more public relations than medical therapy. But he gets credit and does not get arrested or bashed up.
There are some crucial cultural differences here. Religious attitudes do play a role, but nobody has defined these exactly and there is work ahead for psychologists and sociologists.
But you can see how well evangelism can work in this scenario.
You have a padre waiting near the emergency room. A patient with a stopped heart is brought in with distraught relatives. The patient is pulled away into a private area for doctors to jump on him. The relatives are pulled away to a convenient area/chapel to where the padre says a prayer.
You can judge what happens next.
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A similar f*** thing happened right before my eyes. A man was dying in the ICU (not because of cardiac reasons). A Christian friend had magically brought a nun to the wailing mother. The nun was telling the mother that J would be able to save him. Because of the crying and tense situation I did not catch all the words, but the words J and save stuck in my mind. For many years I thought the nun was instilling some confidence and giving a hope of some miracle that would save the man. I thought hey nothing wrong, she is there to console and comfort just like everybody else. After a few years, when I knew more about Christianity I realized the word "save" has an altogether sickening meaning.
Looks like such incidents are far more common in India.
Hi Saik -
In over two or three posts, you've shared your personal losses with us. You've talked about being cheated out of money (satyameva jayate issue) and you've told us of your father's passing.
I just wanted to take a moment and say how sorry I am to hear the things you have been through. I hope all is ok now and things look good. I meant to before when you first mentioned it, sorry it took this long.
Now, time to catch up with this thread...
<!--QuoteBegin-SwamyG+Apr 24 2007, 08:24 AM-->QUOTE(SwamyG @ Apr 24 2007, 08:24 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->You have a padre waiting near the emergency room. A patient with a stopped heart is brought in with distraught relatives. The patient is pulled away into a private area for doctors to jump on him. The relatives are pulled away to a convenient area/chapel to where the padre says a prayer.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A similar f*** thing happened right before my eyes. A man was dying in the ICU (not because of cardiac reasons). A Christian friend had magically brought a nun to the wailing mother. The nun was telling the mother that J would be able to save him. Because of the crying and tense situation I did not catch all the words, but the words J and save stuck in my mind. For many years I thought the nun was instilling some confidence and giving a hope of some miracle that would save the man. I thought hey nothing wrong, she is there to console and comfort just like everybody else. After a few years, when I knew more about Christianity I realized the word "save" has an altogether sickening meaning.
Looks like such incidents are far more common in India.
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This is a supreme piskological trick played on people at a time when they are most vulnerable because anything you do other than agreeing completely with the padre and cooperating would dub you as an ungrateful and insensitive person who wants his father or other relative dead.
This "evangelical" act is the mother of all "Have you stopped beating your wife"/Catch 22 situations. It requires a great deal of strength and conviction to tell a padre to keep off in such a situation.
But sorry - all this is a digression from the topic of the thread
Sumann Bharadwaja Sarma, thanks for the kind words. Events did not make me weak, but made me strong.. i thank first to the hindutva in me for that.
sengutovel ji.. you are quite right. I do see the point though digression off topic. if i may, the stronger sense in me now feels even better, that my father did not end up with EJistic padre, that would have actually sent him to hell. peace is heaven, that can be seen only thru natural death.
also, such pure hindutvic living could have save many kinds of strains of viruses that come out of these hospitals, now killing millions more unnaturally (i guess nature-full karmic laws see thru these).
No Xtian or Islamic narrative is ever complete without a derogatory word on Pagan beliefs and practices. Even when this is repulsive it always found takers. Essential Hindu practices were derided as backward or evil and in need of reform or complete rejection. A Hindu narrative has to have a chapter to do the same to EJ otherwise we will continue to be feasted upon by the virus with no defence.
Shiv, just curious, are you a Cardiothoracic surgeon?
<!--QuoteBegin-Guru+Apr 24 2007, 11:45 AM-->QUOTE(Guru @ Apr 24 2007, 11:45 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->No Xtian or Islamic narrative is ever complete without a derogatory word on Pagan beliefs and practices. Even when this is repulsive it always found takers. Essential Hindu practices were derided as backward or evil and in need of reform or complete rejection. A Hindu narrative has to have a chapter to do the same to EJ otherwise we will continue to be feasted upon by the virus with no defence.
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Ages ago when I read the book "Roots" - I was amazed at how an oral narrative was transmitted from Africa to modern day America to link up people from the past with those of the present.
Judging from the paucity of written references of the humongous numbers of Hindus displaced and generally made to suffer compared with stories that one hears in every family of what happened in days gone by - it is clear that there already is an oral narrative of Hindu history. It needs to be written and I repeat that the narrtive may not obviously be of significance - but you don't complete a jigsaw unless you put in every piece - so even the top right hand corner of the jigsaw containing a bit of blue sky and no there detail is important to complete the puzzle.
Ask your father or grandfather about what he has heard about the past and record it. Do not feel it is unimportant just because your family's narrative does not sound so exciting as that of say someone who is descended from Shivaji or something.
It is important not to let stories of the past die with those who are passing away.
No I am not a cardiothoracic surgeon, ajatashatru although I have received training in cardiac surgery.
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