<!--QuoteBegin-sengotuvel+Apr 29 2007, 06:59 AM-->QUOTE(sengotuvel @ Apr 29 2007, 06:59 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Does anyone recall why Lord Shiva has a snake wrapped around his neck, or why his face is blue?
Why does Shiva have a crescent moon depicted over his head?
Why does he have a fountain of water flowing out of the top of his head?
Does anyone recall how Ganesha came into being?
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There is a thread called itihAsa purANa for such issues. Kindly post such question there.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Apr 29 2007, 05:15 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Apr 29 2007, 05:15 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Found 2 sources though not sure about their reliability.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We need a Hindu narrative not from other who still refers Western Narrative.
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meaning? Are you referring to cystal links? Or are you saying any source for 'Hindu Narrative' has to only come from a Hindu site? Then what next, since
even 'English' language is of western source, would you want to open a new site for 'Hindu Narrative' which would then have inputs only in local Indian languages? Even your last post is in 'English' which is technically western in origin.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->meaning? Are you referring to cystal links? Or are you saying any source for 'Hindu Narrative' has to only come from a Hindu site? Then what next, since
even 'English' language is of western source, would you want to open a new site for 'Hindu Narrative' which would then have inputs only in local Indian languages? Even your last post is in 'English' which is technically western in origin. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Person/Persons who had compiled these pages had made reference to Doniger,Macdonell,Courtright,Michaels,Keay,Mate,Goldberg who are known for anti-hindu views, infact very proud of their views. Wiki is not a good source because its very difficult to know who own the page. .
For Hindu narrative we should have practicing Hindus narrative, not from Univ professors from Michigan or Berkeley.
<!--QuoteBegin-Hauma Hamiddha+Apr 29 2007, 10:54 PM-->QUOTE(Hauma Hamiddha @ Apr 29 2007, 10:54 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->There is a thread called itihAsa purANa for such issues. Kindly post such question there.
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I did that, but while doing so I found a post that is valuable both to me personally, as well as to this thread in being indicative of how, through the fog of time, Hindu narrative has been forgotten or sidelined.
<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+Sep 2 2006, 09:38 PM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ Sep 2 2006, 09:38 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--> Sushrut and heritage of plastic surgery
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I quote from the link:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Ayurvedic literature is preserved almost exclusively in the Sanskrit language, and originally in the form of manuscripts written on birch bark , palm leaves or paper. India has, over the millennia, developed about a dozen different alphabets. The scribe who copied out the manuscripts would use the script that was local to the place of work. So it is quite normal to find Sanskrit medical manuscripts from Kerala in the Malayalam script, while a manuscript of the very same text copied in Bengal would be in the Bengali script. Both manuscripts would still be in the Sanskrit language and would be virtually indistinguishable if read aloud.
No systematic effort has been made to collect together all the known manuscripts of Susruta Samhita, let alone compare them all, try to classify them, to tease apart the historical strata in the texts, weed out scribal errors, and adjust the readings of the texts accordingly. The printed editions are vulgate texts, that is so say, they are books printed on the basis of small number of manuscripts from a local region, normally Bombay or Calcutta. And the decisions about what to print when the manuscripts disagree was made on the basis of general common sense but without the support which historical philology and textual criticism can offer. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Inter-caste marriage is a product of Nationalism and modernization. I don't necessarily think it's good or bad, smaller tribal identities are changing into bigger tribal identities. The fundamental concept of tribalism will always be a part of humanity. Humans will always identify them self with a tribe, and they will always unite against something.
For example, in the west they sometimes talk about religious unity, but usually here they only include Islam, Christianity and Judaism. In other words, even the so called liberal people who want all religions to get along only consider Abrahamic religions as real religions. Therefore, they are effectively attempting to do the old "people of the book" racket, where they unite against non-Abhrahamic religions (or anything that isn't monotheistic). As a Hindu, I would naturally prefer to see such efforts fail.
Beware of people who talk about unity because people usually unite against something (and that might be you!).
In this case it's generally good if Hindu's unite because of inter-caste marriage. The so called caste system however is not necessarily a bad thing like Western media propaganda would have you believe. The bad part is when people get caught up in their micro identity and forget the big picture threats that affect Hinduism as a whole. The so called evil caste system also provided a strong tribal identity when Hindu civilization was under foreign rule and fragmented. Without a doubt, this played no small part in the survival of Hindu civilization through the last 1000 years of foreign rule.
BTW in Europe you will find people who identify themselves as Southern Catholic German or Tuscan or some kind of local identity. This demonstrates how smaller ethnic identities don't vanish under the modern nation state. Even in the U.S., you will find Amish, Quakers, snake worshiping sects in West Virginia etc..
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Apr 27 2007, 11:49 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Apr 27 2007, 11:49 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Majority of members here on this forum I am sure would agree with me when I say that inter-caste marriages is a good sign as it indicates majority of Hindus have started seeing themselves first and foremost as Hindus and do not see themselves still as a member of so and so caste or belonging to this or that region of India.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, lot of plus. Different gene pool is always good.
In my family we had marriages out of caste, state, country and religion. Every marriage brought good and bad experience. Marriage between Hindus whether it was out of caste or State worked very well. Even north and south India did well. Marriage between xitian and Hindu turned out to be bad because both were strong towards own faith. They are still married but girl/wife doesnât mix with Hindu Husband side of family. Out of country marriage ends up with tragedy. Among Hindus, in-laws stress was there but both families brought their own traditions and rituals, which itself became new tradition and healthy one.
I think till marriage day or before marriage caste may be a smaller issue but after marriage that evaporates and traditions and rituals take over. Both sides tries to be better than other in following RIGHT way of tradition and rituals.
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Who writes our story?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->We depend upon the curiosities of foreigners to keep the story alive. <span style='color:red'>One of the greatest storytelling nations has stopped producing stories about its own past, forgetting that ideological battles over history can never be a substitute for enticing narratives.</span> William Dalrympleâs masterly The Last Mughal subtly undercuts the significance of this event for Indians: its wonderful recovery of a time when nation state ideologies had not congealed our identities, also glosses over the hierarchies colonialism produced. 1857 has the power to move because, it is, above all else a darn good story. Too bad, there is simply no contemporary Indian narrative of the event of any power.
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There was an interview Dalrymple had done in one of the magazines and one thing that stood out clearly was the fact that
(a) avalibilty of local narratives
(b) the depth of details available regarding the 'narrative' by common folks during that era and
(b) how inadequately our own historians have spent any time if any reading it.
Dalrymple not only acknowldeges it, but higlights this issue.
The narratives included letters from soliders to their beloveds, complaints by common folks to emperor, some letter to editorial kind of materials, chronicles of how recent convert who were left hanging dry by their white 'soul savers' etc.
<b>All this narrative does exist.</b> but only sells if a foreigner to come to India, gets access to this research material and writes the bestseller.
Why our own govt for past 50 years have failed miserably getting such narrative out too has been cataloged nicely in 'Eminent Historian' book, but that's matter for the 'politics of history' thread.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->I think till marriage day or before marriage caste may be a smaller issue but after marriage that evaporates and traditions and rituals take over. Both sides tries to be better than other in following RIGHT way of tradition and rituals. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Regarding your point of 'traditions and rituals' taking over, are you saying is it a good thing or a bad thing becoz traditions and rituals are also a part & parcel of Hindu society.
And Mudy if you could please share with us an example of 'Both sides tries to be better than other in following RIGHT way of tradition and rituals' as the 'RIGHT' way the boys and girls side try to follow 'rituals & traditions' could also form part of Hindu narrative as members of this forum would get more knowledge of the RIGHT way these tradition and rituals are performed.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Person/Persons who had compiled these pages had made reference to Doniger,Macdonell,Courtright,Michaels,Keay,Mate,Goldberg who are known for anti-hindu views, infact very proud of their views. Wiki is not a good source because its very difficult to know who own the page. .
For Hindu narrative we should have practicing Hindus narrative, not from Univ professors from Michigan or Berkeley.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So your basic reservation is whether the narrative coming is from a non-Hindu source or becoz 'they' may have anti-Hindu views? Also, though we both, I think, totally agree that Hindu narrative has to come forth from a Hindu(i.e. it has to be Hindu's perspective) but would we totally reject any non-Hindu source while compiling such a narrative? Also, would like to know if a Univ. professor from Michigan and Berkeley has converted to Hinduism, would his/hers views still be rejected?
One more thing, merely becoz Wiki may not be a reliable source would itself disqualify Wiki per say though occassionally it may could throw up a good Hindu narrative?
I would like to make the point that if Wiki or any other source with non Hindu authors is not good, that is a siituation that only we can change, by passing the message around and ensuring that the environment is flooded with a hundred billion narratives from Hindus in India.
It can happen and we must make it happen. The Express article has a point when it speaks of the fact that we tend not to write our own history, but wait for someone to write it after which we hate it or love it.
That MUST change.
We mods were pondering over a wiki last year with hindu narrative, maybe we need to dust up that file and look how we can start.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Also, would like to know if a Univ. professor from Michigan and Berkeley has converted to Hinduism, would his/hers views still be rejected?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Read California Text book related articles from front page-
Here is one, about Indian Professor who is read to lick any white behind just to fit in
<b>Gunga Din Comes to Michigan</b>
http://www.india-forum.com/articles/88/1/G...mes-to-Michigan
Hostile Academics
http://www.india-forum.com/articles/145/1/...stile-academics
Majority of Wiki pages on Hindusim are created by these moron.
I suspect the yahoo group "Hindu Civilization" and "India Forum" have some common members. In HC, the idea of Wiki and the idea of an Encyclopedia were discussed few times. There are many folks who are interested in the "Hindu Narration" from the "Hindu's perspective.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Apr 30 2007, 04:33 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Apr 30 2007, 04:33 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Majority of Wiki pages on Hindusim are created by these moron.
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One such moron on Wiki caught fudging <!--emo&:blow--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/blow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='blow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Welcome!
Hello, Witzel, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:
The five pillars of Wikipedia
How to edit a page
Help pages
Tutorial
How to write a great article
Manual of Style
I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! --Machaon 18:23, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
<b>Michael, I first thought that you were an impostor (somebody posing as MW, and therefore using an inappropriate username). It would be appreciated if you would stop editing the Michael Witzel article, as it's strongly discouraged that editors should edit pages about themselves; and in particular, please don't delete valid references or external links.</b>
It might help you to read some of our guidelines and policies before continuing. Some of these are: Wikipedia:Five pillars, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Please let me know if I can do anything else to help. I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Cheers, --Machaon 20:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Editing your own page
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Please don't edit your own page, that's discouraged as many have already told you. </span>Please make your comments on the Talk page and other editors can then make additions for you. CRCulver 18:15, 27 August 2006 (UTC
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<!--emo&:roll--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:roll--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ROTFL.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='ROTFL.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Mudy+Apr 30 2007, 05:33 PM-->QUOTE(Mudy @ Apr 30 2007, 05:33 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> Also, would like to know if a Univ. professor from Michigan and Berkeley has converted to Hinduism, would his/hers views still be rejected?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Read California Text book related articles from front page-
Here is one, about Indian Professor who is read to lick any white behind just to fit in
<b>Gunga Din Comes to Michigan</b>
http://www.india-forum.com/articles/88/1/G...mes-to-Michigan
Hostile Academics
http://www.india-forum.com/articles/145/1/...stile-academics
Majority of Wiki pages on Hindusim are created by these moron.
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There are times when raw aggression is required but having said that, raw aggression can rarely be a substitute for cold logic.
Your second last post talked about some westerners who are known for their anti-Hindu views but in your last post you give reference of some âIndian Professor who is read to lick any white behind just to fit inâ and also about some hostile academics. You really havenât answered any of the questions I raised in my last post but are now trying to shift the goal post by talking about an Indian professor et all. BTW I am still waiting for an answer to some of the questions I posed in my last post i.e.
Regarding your point of 'traditions and rituals' taking over, are you saying is it a good thing or a bad thing becoz traditions and rituals are also a part & parcel of Hindu society
And Mudy if you could please share with us an example of 'Both sides tries to be better than other in following RIGHT way of tradition and rituals' as the 'RIGHT' way the boys and girls side try to follow 'rituals & traditions' could also form part of Hindu narrative as members of this forum would get more knowledge of the RIGHT way these tradition and rituals are performed.
So your basic reservation is whether the narrative coming is from a non-Hindu source or becoz 'they' may have anti-Hindu views? Also, though we both, I think, totally agree that Hindu narrative has to come forth from a Hindu(i.e. it has to be Hindu's perspective) but would we totally reject any non-Hindu source while compiling such a narrative? Also, would like to know if a Univ. professor from Michigan and Berkeley has converted to Hinduism, would his/hers views still be rejected(I was specifically talking about some Westerner academic who may have converted to Hinduism so how does the question of an Indian professor trying to fit in come into the pic?)
One more thing, merely becoz Wiki may not be a reliable source would itself disqualify Wiki per say though occassionally it may could throw up a good Hindu narrative? (Majority writing Wiki may be according to you 'morons' but would that totally disqualify Wiki as a source though it may occassionally throw up a good Hindu reference)?
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--> if a Univ. professor from Michigan and Berkeley has converted to Hinduism, would his/hers views still be rejected?
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His views will start from time he became Hindu, so his view or experience will be limited. People like us, our narrative, our own experience and practices passed on to us from generations. For example, I learnt from my grand mother, before going to bed, recite Gayatri Mantra five times or when you have bad dreams, say OM and recite Gayatri Mantra. Or no food before Havan. So for converts they will never experience what we have learnt from our grand parents, it is our way of life. Our knowledge or experience came from grandparents not from books. Even before reading or writing I was able to recite Gayatri Mantra or Shanti Mantra.
Mudy said:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Our knowledge or experience came from grandparents not from books.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
B I N G O, B I N G O, BINGO was his namo!!!
One reason why so many Hindus (including yours truly) are aware only of the most often talked about ancient texts.
<!--QuoteBegin-SwamyG+May 1 2007, 02:13 AM-->QUOTE(SwamyG @ May 1 2007, 02:13 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Mudy said:
<!--QuoteBegin--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Our knowledge or experience came from grandparents not from books.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
B I N G O, B I N G O, BINGO was his namo!!!
One reason why so many Hindus (including yours truly) are aware only of the most often talked about ancient texts.
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I think this is true. But the significance is deeper IMO. The Indian ethos and morality are largely based on the Hindu memes that have been transmitted orally. Oral transmission of such narrative is dependent on a settled society. For One thousand years Hindu society has been raped and unsettled by the wanton destruction of temples, village life and economy and now family life (by modernization).
So while Mudy is right in speaking about the oral transmission in her family, the unsettling of life has ensured that hundreds of thousands have had no access to similar oral transmission.
Every time I read about the caste system nowadays - I read about how the syetem was "rigidified" and made nepotistic rather than the original skill based classification. I believe the rigidification was a direct consequence of social upheaval when the transmission of oral knowledge such as that which Mudy refers to stopped being widespread and was transmitted merely to one's own descendants. That is the difference between a Guru teaching all entrants at a gurukulam versus the same Guru being able to teach only his own children because he has been driven out of his village. So also a stonemason who might have been able to transmit his skills to all those who wanted to learn in his settled town was displaced and was later able to transmit his life skill to only his kids.
<!--QuoteBegin-rhytha+Apr 30 2007, 05:01 PM-->QUOTE(rhytha @ Apr 30 2007, 05:01 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->We mods were pondering over a wiki last year with hindu narrative, maybe we need to dust up that file and look how we can start.
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Indeed.
In fact one other such parallel attempt is in progress - it is now a Google group - but is at a nascent phase. However I do believe that multiple parallel groups should work on this - that is far better than one single group. More groups means more likelihood of long term survival.
One of the problems as I see it is that Hinduism is so vast and has been about for so long that it cannot be "condensed" easily into Hinduism for dummies. But believe we MUST distill out the basic essentials and start with just such a Hinduism for dummies for easy absorption, in addition to sections that deal with the tremendous detail and gyan that exists in Hindu thought, literature, folklore and tradition.
I am willing to help with distillation of essentials into a format that should be acceptable and recognizable as Hindu to any Hindu who reads it and will start working while rambling on here.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->So also a stonemason who might have been able to transmit his skills to all those who wanted to learn in his settled town was displaced and was later able to transmit his life skill to only his kids.
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Very much true, both sides of my grand parents are product of displaced generation. They survived hiding in mountains of now Himachal Pradesh after Islamic invasion. But they were able to pass on tradition and stories.
Most Hindus find it difficult to say what a Hindu is or what Hinduism is about.
For a typical Hindu who has not thought about it will usually describe his home knowledge and traditions as the hallmarks of being Hindu. But Hindus have such great variety in tradition that a description of some tradtions as "Hindu" may sound alien to a Hindu from another area.
Hinduism itself requires (IMO) two types of explanation, depending on the audience.
One type of explanation is for the person who is traditionally and instinctively Hindu in the manner of having been taught Hindu tradition at home. This person often needs an education in the nuances and finer details of Hinduism. He does not usually need an explanation of "glaringly obvious Hindu details" like Ishwara, Ganesha, Rama, Sita, Arjuna etc.
The other type of explanation is for the non-Hindu (or Hindu brought up in a non-Hindu environment). it is necessary to write a "Hinduism for dummies" or an ABC of Hinduism for this group and this dummies book has to be "instantly recognizable" and "instantly palatable" to the first group - the traditional, "instinctive" Hindu.
When I speak of Hinduism for dummies - I must point out that Hinduism by nature is not a simplified beast like Islam (or Christianity)- "Read this book, follow these rules, this is your god, this is your prophet and that's it - congratulations and welcome brother"
For the second "uninitiated" group, an explanation of what Hindus are and what Hinduism is, needs to be made separately.
Hindus follow a certain moral code - a code of life. This code of life has not been dictated by god to Moses or Mahomet. There is no god in Hinduism sitting on your head and shouting commands down at you or else....
Hinduism is a mixture of the moral code followed by Hindus and Hindu knowledge of astronomy and other sciences as well as philosophy and the nature of God, life and death and existence.
Since the knowledge, traditions and philosophy of Hinduism are so vast and so complex, it makes sense to leave an introduction to them as lesson 2 in Hinduism for dummies, while lesson 1 just says what a Hindu is. That lesson 1 is important because any Hindu who reads it should be able to identify himself in it and not dispute it.
I will - in due course - write some words on what I think lesson 1 ought to be and would welcome inputs on what others feel or what others have already written.
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