Progress Of Indic Languages Vs English

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<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->These statistics might show a bias one way or the other. If there is no difference, there is no problem, but if it can be shown that regional language students are suffering in some way - it means that there are institutionalized biases against regional language students.
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sengotuvel, that is a no-brainer really. Oh yes, regional language based students suffer many hardships today. Statistical analysis may not even be needed on this one. There is a huge barrier that a regional language based SSC student has to face in his/her carrier in comparison to his/her English-medium counterpart. His/her chances of success are at least 25% less (I came up with that number after some thought) than a student of a similar IQ and skills but having English proficiency.

Acknowledging the above fact is an easier and rather a less challenging part. Here is the real struggle sengotuvel, in analyzing the root causes of WHY regional language students, don’t fare as well as the English based students in the competition.

Let me put some possible root causes:

A) The quality of education in the skills needed - Maths/Physics/Chemistry/Biology slowly becoming lower in regional language. (This was not true until 15 years back. Still is not true in B class cities. But with the tilting of balance i.e. middle class realizing that English is the easier route to success, they are sending their children to English-medium - and therefore resulting quality of regional language schools is dipping. Quality has got to do with the quality of student intake. So this is a chain-reaction process)

B) The entrance process (not just the exams, but the whole paraphernalia - the preparation, course material, counseling, self-confidence, attitude, peer pressures)

C) During-the-course challenges. This is HUGE. IITs have now started to take a second look here. I know this for a fact that IIT Kanpur conducts additional special classes in Hindi in the 1st year of BTech to support the non-English students. Several Engineering colleges conduct special English classes, although it remains a routine only.

Now, no matter how much one tries, since the medium of instruction IS English, there is always a disadvantage for the non-English student. He/she has to do a lot of extra work to just come upto the speed. Results in competitive disadvantage.

D) IIM or other Biz School Entrance. The real challenge and disadvantage starts here. Let us face it - corporate India, and our so called "business leadership schools" are the best groomed Maculayist brown sahibs. To get into a top business school - not just knowledge of English , but very sound knowledge of English is necessary - and that filters out most of the regional language crowd right there. Full stop to the most vernacular folks here. Majority I have known have taken the next option available, which is to go on to specialize in Technical skills. Many drop out here.

E) Campus placements. Again, for job selection, the process is such that it greatly favours the knowledge of English (in name of 'communication skills'), therefore again a natural disadvantage. I must mention one pleasant note here. This is somewhat a blessing in disguise. A couple of my classmates in the post grad, who were from vernacular SSC b/g, did not make it to the MNCs during the campus placement. Both of them were simply BRILLIANTs, but having disadvantage in English. (One Tamil other Telugu). (Out of compulsion and not choice-) They went on to join the DRDL and are now in Ballistic Missile Development Program and very satisfied with themselves.

F) English is hip, and fashionable! At least the media and overall society makes it that way. This makes the vernacular fellow too imitate the "English"- resulting in a third rate Tinglish and Hinglish.

G) sengotuvel, now let me mention the most tragic part - the bias that the whole macaulavian Indian society carries against the Vernacular-medium education. The bias that vernacular students are the least fortunate, least intellectual, lowest of the line, who got no seats or could not afford an English education. (so I can't blame you when you thought that non-English education means producing ayas, drivers, and domestic helps. You are not alone).

This bias is really what is the biggest barrier on the path of a vernacular SSC student. He/she knows the bias, and that’s why, when he/she succeeds, he/she is NEVER going to let his children go through it, and opts for an English one. Vishwas had mentioned other aspect of this 'social stigma' : in some Indian societies, even finding a good bride is hard for a vernacular-educated boy, leave aside a decent job!!!

These I feel, are some root causes and barriers before a vernacular student. No question that bias does exis against him. Yes it does. The whole system is tilted against him.

Now, I found a good correspondence, written by an Engineering Professor on the topic:

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Every developed country, be it Japan, Germany or France has made its language of scientific discourse the same as that of the mother tongue of the people. A study of the educational history of these nations also shows that at some point of time in their history they made a conscious decision in favour of the mother tongue. The Indian Education Commission1 under the Chairmanship of D. S. Kothari, then Chairman of UGC, in its report observed that the use of the mother tongue ‘can make scientific and technical knowledge more easily accessible to the people and thus help not only in the progress of industrialization but also in the wider dissemination of science and scientific outlook’.

Making a plea for adopting the mother tongue as the medium of education in schools and colleges, the report also quoted Rabindra Nath Tagores’s Convocation
address at the Calcutta University as follows:

‘In no country in the world except India, is to be seen this divorce of the language of education from the language of the pupil. Full hundred years have not elapsed since Japan took its initiation into Western culture. At the outset she had to take
recourse to textbooks written in foreign languages, but from the very first, her objective had been to arrive at the stage of ranging freely over the subjects of study in the language of the country. It was because Japan had recognized the need of such studies, not as an ornament for a select section of her citizens, but for giving power and culture to all of them, that she deemed it to be of prime importance to make them universally available to her people. And in this effort of Japan to gain proficiency in the Western arts and sciences, which was to give her the means of self-defence against the predatory cupidity of foreign powers, to qualify her to take an honoured place in the comity of nations, no trouble or expense was spared. Least of all was there the miserly folly of keeping such learning out of easy reach, within the confines of a foreign language’.

Concerns have been expressed in the pages of Current Science on the poor
current contribution of Indian scientists to the world pool of scientific knowledge.
One of the main reasons for this state of affairs is our failure to act on the suggestions made in the learned reports like the one quoted above. Some suggestions for action can be made as follows:

All India institutions like IITs and IIMs can act as pioneers in this regard by conducting a parallel regional language section in addition to the English language
sections as conducted now. For example, IIT Madras can have Tamil medium sections while IIT, Kanpur can have Hindi medium sections. The educational resources like laboratories can be shared by both the media students. Massive Government funding following the example of Japan can be made for the training of faculty, preparation of text books in the regional languages. The successful Regional Language Educational model developed at the All India institutions can be later replicated in other institutions.

1. Education and National Development. Report of Education Commission 1964–66.
National Council of Educational Research and Training, New Delhi, 1964.

(written by V. PARAMASIVAN, Hindustan College of Engineering, Kanchipuram 603 103, India e-mail: hetc@vsnl.com)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[ramana]

Can we have this forum in three languages- Hindi, Tamil, Kannada for starters?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+May 8 2007, 10:10 AM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ May 8 2007, 10:10 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
G) sengotuvel, now let me mention the most tragic part - the bias that the whole macaulavian Indian society carries against the Vernacular-medium education.  The bias that vernacular students are the least fortunate, least intellectual, lowest of the line, who got no seats or could not afford an English education.  (so I can't blame you when you thought that non-English education means producing ayas, drivers, and domestic helps.  You are not alone). 

This bias is really what is the biggest barrier on the path of a vernacular SSC student.  He/she knows the bias, and that’s why, when he/she succeeds, he/she is NEVER going to let his children go through it, and opts for an English one. Vishwas had mentioned other aspect of this 'social stigma' : in some Indian societies, even finding a good bride is hard for a vernacular-educated boy, leave aside a decent job!!!
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Indian society is divided into two classes - the English speakers and the others. That would not be a problem if the non English speakers were economically independent of the English speakers.

Soon after 9-11 I had taken a series of guests of mine from Britain for dinner at an exclusive club. There was a waiter serving us - those waiters have a working knowledge of English although I tend to speak to them in Kannada or Tamil - languages that they are comfortable in. Some of them belonged to a generation that was taught to respect the English speaker and reply in English and tended to be mildly contemptuous of local language speakers. However I deal with people, often poor and illiterate every single day of my life and have my way of making them drop their guard.

Elite clubs in India make one very aware of the two classes of society that India has created. It turned out that every single one of the English speaking Indians present in my group among the guests either knew someone in New York at the time of the twin tower attack, or knew someone who was lost in the tower. I figured out this fact and then called a few waiters one by one (and the plate/glasses clearing boys) and asked them if they too knew anyone in New York. I did it only to satisfy myself. Obviously they did not know anyone in New York, and most did not even have friends or family abroad.

But as I said in an earlier post, Indians have hankered after everything "foreign" - specifically foreign and Western and the virus is deep in Indian society. You are a nobody of you don't go to "phoren" and the first step in going to phoren is English - either for education or employment.

When I was a boy, Hindi movies considered the firangi accented Hindi-speaking Indian as the villain. He is now often the hero. He is no longer a bad person. People see a gain for themselves from English and are unconcerned about the loss that is occurring in terms of literature and richness and evolution of local languages.

Those people who are hankering after an English education will not be the people who can save local languages. it has to be someone else. Some of us who are on the other side of the English boundary are probably the people who are in the best position to do something.

Just my thoughts.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Vishwas had mentioned other aspect of this 'social stigma' : in some Indian societies, even finding a good bride is hard for a vernacular-educated boy, leave aside a decent job!!!<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bodhi, I don't know that that is true today. But, if it is not true, I am certain it will be, a few years from now.

[Guest]

non-Hindi friends will forgive, but the following is hard to translate yet important to collect. In summary, this is about the tussle between Bharatendu Harishchandra's agenda of purifying Hindi from then-existing Farsi-arabic influence, and of Raja Shiv Prasad, his contemporary literary genius, who wanted to develop a composite Farsi-mixed-Hindi (i.e. Urdu in Devanagri), and how Bharatendu ultimately succeeded. He is being evaluated in this, on the charges of 'Hinduisation' and communalization of Hindi.

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->इस आरोप पर भी थोड़ा विचार कर लेना आवश्यक है कि राजा शिवप्रसाद देवनागरी लिपि में अरबी-फारसी के शब्दों से भरी-पूरी हिन्दी चलाकर हिन्दू एवं मुसलमान दोनों के लिए एक भाषा बना रहे थे, लेकिन भारतेन्दु ने हिन्दी को अरबी-फारसी से मुक्त करते हुए संस्कृतनिष्ठ बनाकर उसे केवल हिन्दुआें की भाषा बना दिया। `रस्साकसी' के लेखक का भारतेन्दु के खिलाफ यह भी एक आरोप है, जो अंतत: उन्हें भाषा की दृष्टि से साम्प्रदायिक सिद्ध करता है। ऐसी ही शिकायत डॉ. अमरनाथ अपने लेख `आचार्य रामचंद्र शुक्ल की जातीय चेतना और आज का हिन्दी समाज' (`वागर्थ', जुलाई २००५ में प्रकाशित) में करते हुए कहते हैंज्ञ् `कई सौ वर्षों तक फारसी शासन की भाषा रह चुकी थी। शासन से जुड़े तथा पढ़े-लिखे लोगों, जिनमें हिन्दू और मुसलमान दोनों थे, का फारसी जानना और इसीलिए फारसी लिपि का अभ्यास होना स्वाभाविक था। इस तरह के माहौल में हिन्दी जाति के लिए जिस भाषा का सुझाव राजा शिवप्रसाद दे रहे थे, वही स्वाभाविक था। उसी के माध्यम से हमारी एकता कायम रह सकती थी।' लेकिन जिस `आमफहम' और `खास पसंद' भाषा को राजा शिवप्रसाद चला रहे थे, उससे वे ख़ुद बाद में भटक गये। उसी लेख का यह अंश द्रष्टव्य हैज्ञ् `यह सही है कि उनकी परवर्ती रचनाआें, जैसे `इतिहासतिमिर नाशक', `सिखों का उदय और अस्त' तथा `कुछ बयान अपनी जबान का' आदि में अरबी-फारसी शब्दों की तादाद बढ़ती गई है जिसका राजा लक्ष्मण सिंह के समर्थकों ने ही नहीं, अपितु भारतेन्दु और उनके मंडल के लोगों द्वारा भी लगातार विरोध किया गया। लोग अरबी-फारसी के शब्दों के प्रयोग के खिलाफ मुखर थे।' इस तरह भारतेन्दु को बार-बार हिन्दी को अरबी-फारसी की बजाय संस्कृत से जोड़ने के कारण `हिन्दी का हिन्दूकरण' करने का दोषी ठहराया जाता है।

वस्तुत: देखा जाय तो भारतेन्दु के संबंध में हिन्दी को लेकर ऐसी बात कहने के पीछे कोई भाषा वैज्ञानिक सिद्धांत नहीं है, है तो केवल ग़लत ढंग से धर्मनिरपेक्ष बनने या `एलिट' मुस्लिम समुदाय को खुश रखने की मनोवृत्ति। यह सर्वविदित तथ्य है कि हिन्दी का जो मूल ढांचा संस्कृत के ज़माने से कुरू जन प्रदेश में मौजूद था (जैसा कि आचार्य किशोरीदास वाजपेयी ने अपनी पुस्तक `हिन्दी शब्दानुशासन' में सिद्ध किया है) उसका भाषा वैज्ञानिक दृष्टि से संस्कृत से वैसे ही संबंध ठहरता है जैसा उससे भारत की अन्य भाषाआें का। इस खड़ी बोली हिन्दी में ही सल्तनत एवं मुगल काल में अरबी-फारसी के शब्दों को भरकर तथा फारसी लिपि में उतारकर शनै: शनै: उर्दू भाषा गढ़ी गई। कितनी बड़ी विडम्बना है कि जो अरबी-फारसी भारतवर्ष की भाषाएं नहीं रहीं, उनसे हिन्दी का लगाव स्वाभाविक मान लिया जाता है और जो संस्कृत यहां की भाषा रही है, उससे हिन्दी के लगाव को कृत्रिम ही नहीं, साम्प्रदायिक तक समझ लिया जाता है।

ऐतिहासिक सत्य तो यही है कि फारसी भारत के किसी भूभाग, सूबे, प्रान्त की भाषा नहीं थी, लेकिन जब मुगल शासकों ने उसे यहां की राजभाषा बना दिया, तो सरकारी नौकरी के लिए लालायित हिन्दू हों या सामान्य मुसलमान, दोनों के लिए फारसी सीखना ज़रूरी हो गया। दूसरी तरफ शासक बिरादरी से जुड़े अभिजात मुसलमान अपनी धार्मिक एवं सांस्कृतिक पहचान कायम रखने के लिए अरबी-फारसी से जुड़े रहे। अतएव अरबी-फारसी से लदी जो उर्दू भाषा बनी, उसमें शासक वर्ग की ही अहम भूमिका थी, न कि सामान्य जनता की। इस फारसी भाषा एवं लिपि को जानना मुगल काल में एक विवशता थी, ठीक वैसी ही जैसी ब्रिटिश काल में सरकारी नौकरी पाने के लिए अंग्रेजी भाषा एवं रोमन लिपि सीखने की विवशता थी। अंग्रेजी विदेशी भाषा होने के कारण भारत के लिए जातीय भाषा नहीं हो सकती, तब क्या यह विचारणीय नहीं कि अरबी-फारसी को कैसे यहां की जातीय भाषा मानकर उससे हिन्दी के लगाव को स्वाभाविक मान लिया जाय?

रही बात किसी भाषा के शब्दों का आयात करने की, तो हमारे भक्तिकाल के कवियों ने अरबी-फारसी के प्रचलित शब्दों का ख़ूब प्रयोग किया है। कबीर, सूर, तुलसी के काव्य में ये शब्द भरे पड़े हैं, लेकिन बावजूद इसके इनकी भाषा ब्रज भाषा या अवधी के रूप में साफ-साफ पहचानी जाती है। राजा शिवप्रसाद जिस तरह अरबी-फारसी के शब्दों से हिन्दी को भरने लगे थे, उससे हिन्दी का अपना सहज स्वाभाविक देशी रूप ख़त्म होता जा रहा था और इसे ही बचाने के लिए भारतेन्दु एवं उनके समर्थक लेखकों को सामने आना पड़ा। भारतेन्दु या उनके सहधर्मी लेखकों ने जो हिन्दी लिखी, उससे अरबी-फारसी के प्रचलित शब्दों का बहिकार नहीं कर दिया, हां, उसके घटाटोप से मुक्त करते हुए हिन्दी के मूल ढांचा को संस्कृत या उससे बने उद्भव, देशज शब्दों से संवारा जिसे कतई धार्मिक या साम्प्रदायिक होना नहीं कहा जा सकता। भाषा वैज्ञानिक दृष्टि से इसे देशीकरण या अपनी जड़ों से जुड़ना या जातीय होना ही कहना सही होगा। यही कारण था कि भारतेन्दु की हिन्दी की प्रशंसा आचार्य शुक्ल को इन शब्दों में करनी पड़ीज्ञ् `उर्दू के कारण अब तक हिन्दी गद्य की भाषा का स्वरूप ही झंझट में पड़ा था। राजा शिवप्रसाद और राजा लक्ष्मण सिंह ने जो कुछ गद्य लिखा था वह एक प्रकार से प्रस्ताव के रूप में हुआ था। जब भारतेन्दु अपनी मंजी हुई परिष्कृत भाषा सामने लाये, तब हिन्दी बोलने वाली जनता को गद्य के लिए खड़ी बोली का प्रकृत साहित्यिक रूप मिल गया और भाषा के स्वरूप का प्रश्न न रह गया।' (हिन्दी साहित्य का इतिहास, पृ. ३०७)।

http://vagarth.com/hindi/vimarsh/sb-singh2.htm
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[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->The following is an exact word to word translation into Telugu by me:
QUOTE
mana bangaram anya vibaagham lo edo telugu meedha taadu pettadu konchem sahayam cheyyandi. ... Akkade na mamayya (amma sodharudu) mariyu pinni valla kutumbham vallu kooda ...
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
BV, Instead of anya, you probably would use avatala/avatali informally.

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->BV, Instead of anya, you probably would use avatala/avatali informally. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya but since I was writing I decided to be more formal.

On another note I found this speech of NTR:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAwTZ1kUikk

That is what I call Telugu, in that entire speech only foreign words I heard were "minority" which should have been "alpa sankhyaka" (well kilo was another but that's unavoidable) roju (dhinam) and amalu (arabic, but don't know the Telugu word), when I can talk like that continously then I know that I can speak Telugu.

I then see jokers like Naidu or YSR who are supposed to lead a Telugu state speak Tenglish, shows the changes that have taken place in a decade. At least the nutter Karunanidhi has the saving grace of speaking excellent Tamil.

I saw Dalapathi yesterday, in 14 years they have raped the language because when I saw the movie it was very much a Telugu movie not a Tenglish one trying to pass off as a Telugu one.

As for Bharatendu Harischandra, I read a small English bio of his online, what he wanted was the spoken language of the people to be the standard not too Persianised or Sanskritised, looks like even that is not enough for contemporary secularists, in his own time there was some guy who had the title "sitar-e-hind" or some crap who ran a Hindi magazine but did it in uber Persianised Hindi, maybe that's what our secularists would have preferred.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->title "sitar-e-hind" or some crap <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->

'sitar-e-hind' was the title of Raja Shiv Prasad, who had a royal following of his own. 'bharatendu' was the title of Harishchandra. The titles speak for themselves, as to the direction the two literary rivals wanted to give to Hindi. My above post was exactly about this conflict.

A stamp on him:
<img src='http://www.agrawal.org/images/stamps/stamp_9.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />

[Bharatvarsh]

Bodhiji I wanted to ask how much is Bollywood Hindi reflective of spoken Hindi like say in some East UP village, I don't mean the English words which are obviously not in full circulation in the villages yet but the Persian/Arabic words like for example in this Sikh religious program on Akash radio the preacher uses the following native words when he speaks Panjabi:

insaan - manukh
janwar - pasu
takleef - samasya
khatam - samapt
khabar - samachar
akhree - antim
shaadi - biah
naraaz/gussa - krodh

And so on, so I was wondering if Bollywood Hindi is reflective of spoken Hindi or not.

[Guest]

Unfortunately (or fortunately), there is no one single standard 'Hindi' which is spoken in a particular style. So it depends upon the region we are talking about. In Eastern UP, there are various dialects, quite different from each other. Two major dialects being Awadhi (Lucknow, Ayodhya and surroundings) and the larger group Bhojpuri (between Gorakhpur and Varanasi, extending towards western Bihar). Then too, there are several variants of each of these, and now a days due to increased human interaction and television, some sort of a composite eastern Hindi is emerging. Both Bhojpuri and Awadhi are very rich in words, and are largely Sanskrit-nishtha.

Almost all the words you have mentioned are used in the same or similar form, with slight modification in pronunciation.
Insan - Manai, MAnus;
gussa - ris (from rosh?) and kirodh
others are the same.

Coming to Bollywood-Hindi. This is only a Hindi spoken by our English-medium macaulevian-assembly line produced crowd. And Hindi of Aajtak and IBN-"Hindi" is actually English-bastardized Urdu, with some very few Sanskrit words thrown in it. Sitar-e-hind's modern followers of course.

To hear authentic east-UP hindi, watch older movies of Raj Kapur (like Teesri Kasam). (kasam in East is kiriyA or sapath)

[Hauma Hamiddha]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->educated speech (vibudhabhasam)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think vibudhabhAShaM will indeed be correctly mean both deva bhASha and educated speech simultaneously. vibudha means learned as well as deva.

[ramana]

X-Posted from another forum

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->>>>> OMG, I for one am sick and tired of this Tamil bullcrap (excuse my French) trotted out to justify Tamil chauvinism and racism. If it's not hating on the "Hindians" and North Indians in general, it's bashing Brahmins, attacking Karnataka, or hating the Sinhalese and Sri Lanka. Seriously, these Tamil fanatics need to take a break with their fantasies.

Stop generalizing and take a chill pill dude. Relax your moola bandha. Everybody is sensitive about their language. <b>The perceived Tamil chauvinism is a direct offshoot of the imposition of Hindi as the "only" official language of government communication after independence. The flawed idea behind the imposition was that of national unity.</b> While the other South Indian states did not put up that much of a fight against the imposition Hindi, my linguisitic cousins, Tamils were mad as hell and could not take it anymore. (My mother tongue is Telugu, but I grew up in Madras. So I speak and write Tamil better than Telugu). <b>While the conventional argument is that by not learning Hindi, the Tamilians are disadvantaged in communicating and conducting business within India, sixty years have shown that it is simply not true. The economy of Tamil nadu is the second largest, after that of Maharashtra, and has been so for decades. </b>While it is probably true that some Tamils are extreme and chauvinistic about their language, I do not blame them. They have a fantastic and beautiful language with an extraordinary history to be proud of.

About the "purity" of Tamil: It is true that Tamil has a significant amount of its vocabulary filled with sanskritized roots. <b>Any living language has to adapt and evolve to survive. If Tamil had not borrowed from sanskrit and other languages, it would be dead now, just like Sanskrit. But it is interesting that for every word in Tamil that is etymologycally derived from sanskrit, there is always another equivalent word which is etymologically purer, with Tamil roots.</b>

However, the rigidity of the Tamil alphabet can be vexing at times. It primarily has to do with the lack of consonants (only 18). However, there are some additional consonants, called vada mozhi (sha, sa, ha, etc..) which are used, but not considered a strict part of the alphabet. Hema is a good example, which would be kema otherwise.

Also, I have noticed that Tamils are the only people who use "Tamil" in their names. Tamilarasan, Tamilmozhi, etc. Brilliant. Is there any other linguistic group which does the same (No, Johnny English does not count, to preempt you jokers out there)

I had a Tamil teacher in middle school who was a proponent of the Lemuria kandam theory, but I think that it is sheer non-sense. <b>While it is entirely possible that such a continent existed millions of years ago, the pandiyas and cholas were not fighting over it. A simple lack of appreciation of Geological (millions), human migratory (tens of thousands) and linguistic development (hundreds - thousands) time scales is the reason for such ignorance.</b>

And why is it written Tamil and not Thamizh ?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

and
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>This whole concept of language in South Asia is something I just have a hard time comprehending. If there is no common tongue, it is difficult to communicate. I think people seem to make it an "or" condition - either this language OR that language. Why not have a common tongue to communicate for commerce, official business, etc, and then keep your local tongue for informal usage, etc.</b> Personally I could care less what the official language is - pick one, for better or worse and go from there. This morphing of something beneficial to form a regional rallying point seems to have caused nothing but grief.
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>How did Hindi penetrate so efficiently in other parts of India (Punjab, Bengal, Maharashtra etc.) where Hindi was not the lingua franca?</b> I am curious. Taught at school? Doordarshan and bollywood?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

In the mid 1800s the idea of a common link language as a basis for nation states was prevalent and one form of Hindi was promoted by Bharatendu and others. However Independent India has shown that language is not the only basis for creating a Westpahlian state.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bodhi+May 15 2007, 12:04 AM-->QUOTE(Bodhi @ May 15 2007, 12:04 AM)<!--QuoteEBegin-->Coming to Bollywood-Hindi.  This is only a Hindi spoken by our English-medium macaulevian-assembly line produced crowd.  And Hindi of Aajtak and IBN-"Hindi" is actually English-bastardized Urdu, with some very few Sanskrit words thrown in it.  Sitar-e-hind's modern followers of course.
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<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All the hindi news is now delivered in this faux-hindi! <!--emo&--><img src='style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->

I wonder, whether they feel good about themselves using hard urdu words not commonly used in hindi or do they think they have some audience in Pakistan?

In fact if they used more sanskrit words, other Indians with non-hindi mother toungue will have a much easier time tracking the language. And those channels will get a bigger non-hindi audience.

But as you said, there seems to be strange fetish of using hard urdu words mixed with cheap deshaj quips and english khichdi, while deliberately avoiding sanskrit words.

The present hindi news uses a hindi-haters version of hindi.

Someone should call these news-reders bluff.

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->But as you said, there seems to be strange fetish of using hard urdu words mixed with cheap deshaj quips and english khichdi, while deliberately avoiding sanskrit words. <!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is because they are hoping if they repeat that b@st@rd tongue enough the common people will also start speaking that way and then they can finally have urdu under the Hindi label.

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ashok Kumar+May 24 2007, 12:14 PM-->QUOTE(Ashok Kumar @ May 24 2007, 12:14 PM)<!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Someone should call these news-reders bluff.</b>
[right][snapback]69289[/snapback][/right]
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Any Ideas - How?

Why do they hate popular Hindi? Under which motivations do they want to promote this pseudo-Hindi? Why do they like Urdu over Hindi; and roots of Farsi over Sanskrit?

In my opinion, the solution is in promoting parallel and popular Hindi channels with good Hindi. (Like Doordarshan used to be). These folks will fall in line. But is there in operation, an electronic media of this ideology?

[Guest]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Cracking IAS in mother tongue

NEW DELHI: In the list of top 20 candidates selected for the 2006 batch of civil services, two wrote their exams in Hindi.

Among others who chose to use their mother tongue was Pallavi Akruti from Andhra Pradesh who ranked 101 and qualified for the IPS and took the exam in Telugu. These candidates are a part of a growing tribe of civil services aspirants who choose to write the exam and even be interviewed in their own language, rather than English.

<b>These candidates and the 2006 topper who comes from a rural background could be an indication of babudom being slowly taken over by more people from smaller towns and villages rather than the metros. </b>

Over the years, the percentage of candidates using an Indian language as the medium of interview has gone up from 16% in 1998 up to 24% in 2004, nearly a quarter of the total candidates interviewed.

Of these candidates, a <b>large majority (85%) chose Hindi as the medium of interview</b>, making it the language of choice for one out of every five candidates interviewed between 1998 and 2004. <b>Marathi, Telugu and Tamil are the other popular choices in that order</b>. However, their percentages are small compared to Hindi, just over 4%, 3.5% and 3% respectively. 

<b>Malayalam, Sanskrit and Punjabi seem to be falling into disuse with just one person each choosing these languages in the seven years between 1998 and 2004. Gujarati and Kannada are still chosen by a small number and Urdu has a slim presence of just three persons opting for it in the 7 years.</b>

<b>The number of candidates opting for Hindi has been going up steadily over the years and their percentage rose from just 12% in 1998 to 26% in 2003 and has stayed above 20% since 2001.</b> However, the number of candidates who had opted for the literature of an Indian language as an optional subject in the civil services main examination getting selected has been going down over the years.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/artic...063218.cms
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Guest]

Ashok Kumar Ji, and others,

1. Various deshaj words are very intersting in the Indic languages. Some have so unique personality, that it is hard to imagine their roots and etymology.
Take for example, a Hindi deshaj - 'chhIchhA ledar' (hard to translate, but very roughly may mean 'mess'). What could be its etymology? Does not sound like sanskrit-nishtha, nor from farsi, nor imitative or sound-based. Any ideas how such words become so popular?

2. Like Shakespeare created and made popular several original English words, did anyone in Hindi (or other Indic languages - other than Sanskrit) do something similar contribution to the vocabulary?

3. What is the etymology of 'phool'? (this must be from sanskrit)

[Bharatvarsh]

<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->2. Like Shakespeare created and made popular several original English words, did anyone in Hindi (or other Indic languages - other than Sanskrit) do something similar contribution to the vocabulary?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Savarkar coined several new words for Marathi and some even for Hindi, here are some examples:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Savarkar is credited with several popular neologisms in Hindi, like Digdarshak(leader, one who points in the right direction), Shatkar, Saptahik (Weekly) and Sansad (Parliament).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinayak_Damodar_Savarkar<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not sure about Sansad, Savarkar generally avoided Farsi/Arabic words and this word seems to be derived from here:
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->A. sanad, s. f. 1. Signature, a deed, a grant, a diploma, the seal of a magistrate, a warrant. 2. A prop; any thing on which one leans, or is supported; a document or proof, argument, authority, certificate. 3. Relation, connexion. sanad-mut̤ābiḳ,

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologi...ct&display=utf8<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Purification of Mother tongue  

He was against the  influence of  Urdu, English or any other  languages on Marathi - his mother tongue Hence  he professed for use of  pure Marathi Language.  To replace many conversant words adopted   from languages like Urdu, Persian or English, he coined many words and brought them in use. Since Marathi originates from  Sanskrit, which  is a proliferate language, why should  invasion of words from other languages be tolerated, he used to emphasis. The following Marathi words , which we use in  day  to day  language are brought in by Savarkar - Prashala (High school), Aacharya (Principal), Dhani (Malak - Owner), Dinank (Tarikh - date), Upasthita (hajar - present), Nabhowani (radio),   Mahapour (mayor), Vishwasta (Trustee) etc.  

Realizing  the importance and influence of print media, he made appropriate changes in the Devnagari script, so as to ease printing. "Savarkar script"  reduced  print type faces from 200 to 80.  

http://www.nashik.com/halloffame/tribute/savarkar.html<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->he coined several new technical terms of parliamentary usage and of Indian parlance such as chhayachitra (photography), Sansad (Senate), Vyangyachitra (Cartoons) etc.

http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/itihas/vds.htm<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Chayachitram is the Telugu word for Photo, never knew it came from Savarkar and Vyangya Chitram is cartoon in Telugu.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->3. What is the etymology of 'phool'? (this must be from sanskrit)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Phool for flowers is from Sanskrit, becomes poolu in Telugu and something similar in Tamil.

[Guest]

Thanks Bharatvarsh. That is another great aspect of Savarkar's contribution.
Sansad is certainly not from Sanad, and in my opinion, has nothing to do with Farsi.
<!--QuoteBegin-->QUOTE<!--QuoteEBegin-->Phool for flowers is from Sanskrit, becomes poolu in Telugu and something similar in Tamil.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tamil world is 'poo', and as you pointed, related with Telugu poolu and Hindi phool (Latin flor, and english flora, flower). But what is that Sanskrit root word?

I think, the Sanskrit root is 'pu' - will wait for gurus to confirm or correct.